Author Topic: Who else here is a libertarian?  (Read 29273 times)

jim555

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #400 on: February 25, 2017, 09:12:06 PM »
How do you think a system with taxation is in anyway a libertarian system?

arebelspy

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #401 on: February 25, 2017, 09:13:16 PM »
But isn't that at the core of the philosophy?

The core is "less government interference."  It's not "zero taxes at all costs."

Reasonable libertarians agree that some taxes necessarily must exist; where we draw the line becomes the discussion.  Fringe ones want to draw that line at $0, and somehow think that a combination of free market and altruism will solve all the problems that would be created.

To be fair, everybody profits off the system. Everybody, even poor people. They just get a smaller bill.

Everybody benefits from the system, yes.  Profits?  Maybe, maybe not, depending on your definition. But yes, we all benefit from living in a society.
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arebelspy

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #402 on: February 25, 2017, 09:14:31 PM »
How do you think a system with taxation is in anyway a libertarian system?

Why do you think libertarian necessarily means "zero taxes, ever, for any reason"?  Libertarianism is about freedom and liberty.

Less government is a part of that, and thus less taxes occur.  It's not zero government (aka anarchy) or zero taxes except to the delusional.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_Party_(United_States)

Quote
Current fiscal policy positions include lowering taxes,[11]
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jim555

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #403 on: February 25, 2017, 09:15:12 PM »
Those "reasonable libertarians" are not libertarians at all, sorry.

jim555

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #404 on: February 25, 2017, 09:17:40 PM »
You are nullifying the core principle of liberty if you allow for any involuntary transfers of property, aka taxation.

GuitarStv

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #405 on: February 25, 2017, 09:20:42 PM »
You are nullifying the core principle of liberty if you allow for any involuntary transfers of property, aka taxation.

You're forgetting that the transfer of property through taxation is entirely voluntary.

arebelspy

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #406 on: February 25, 2017, 09:23:47 PM »
You are nullifying the core principle of liberty if you allow for any involuntary transfers of property, aka taxation.

You're forgetting that the transfer of property through taxation is entirely voluntary.

Exactly. Not just property (goods), but services, too.

If you and I agree you will pay me $X for mowing your lawn, and I mow it, you should pay, or you are breaking our contract, and you should expect it to be enforced.  Whining next that the person collecting it is a mafia guy forcing you to pay is on you.

With society, you are agreeing to pay your bill for the goods and services provided, or you can leave and not take advantage of them.  But if you decide to stay and get the goods and services of society, yes, you have to pay your bill, or YOU are the one breaking the contract.

Again: feel free to leave if you don't want to pay the bill for the stuff you're using.

Why are you refusing to leave, but still taking?  =/
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jim555

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #407 on: February 25, 2017, 09:26:36 PM »
You are nullifying the core principle of liberty if you allow for any involuntary transfers of property, aka taxation.

You're forgetting that the transfer of property through taxation is entirely voluntary.
Are you serious?  It is NOT voluntary.  See what happens if you don't "volunteer".

jim555

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #408 on: February 25, 2017, 09:28:20 PM »
You are nullifying the core principle of liberty if you allow for any involuntary transfers of property, aka taxation.

You're forgetting that the transfer of property through taxation is entirely voluntary.

Exactly. Not just property (goods), but services, too.

If you and I agree you will pay me $X for mowing your lawn, and I mow it, you should pay, or you are breaking our contract, and you should expect it to be enforced.  Whining next that the person collecting it is a mafia guy forcing you to pay is on you.

With society, you are agreeing to pay your bill for the goods and services provided, or you can leave and not take advantage of them.  But if you decide to stay and get the goods and services of society, yes, you have to pay your bill, or YOU are the one breaking the contract.

Again: feel free to leave if you don't want to pay the bill for the stuff you're using.

Why are you refusing to leave, but still taking?  =/
Your system described is not logically consistent with libertarianism.

GuitarStv

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #409 on: February 25, 2017, 09:31:53 PM »
You are nullifying the core principle of liberty if you allow for any involuntary transfers of property, aka taxation.

You're forgetting that the transfer of property through taxation is entirely voluntary.

Exactly. Not just property (goods), but services, too.

If you and I agree you will pay me $X for mowing your lawn, and I mow it, you should pay, or you are breaking our contract, and you should expect it to be enforced.  Whining next that the person collecting it is a mafia guy forcing you to pay is on you.

With society, you are agreeing to pay your bill for the goods and services provided, or you can leave and not take advantage of them.  But if you decide to stay and get the goods and services of society, yes, you have to pay your bill, or YOU are the one breaking the contract.

Again: feel free to leave if you don't want to pay the bill for the stuff you're using.

Why are you refusing to leave, but still taking?  =/
Your system described is not logically consistent with libertarianism.

Liberty cannot exist in a society without certain basic services commonly provided by government.

Without some form of policing and legal system, there is nothing to prevent a stronger man from beating you up, taking everything you own, and enslaving you.

It's possible for these services to be paid for privately, but this leads a scenario where liberty exists for the wealthy only . . . and where the poor are unable to protect themselves and their property.

jim555

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #410 on: February 25, 2017, 09:36:06 PM »
Liberty cannot exist in a society without certain basic services commonly provided by government.
The anarchocapitalists would disagree with you.

GuitarStv

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #411 on: February 25, 2017, 09:55:59 PM »
Liberty cannot exist in a society without certain basic services commonly provided by government.
The anarchocapitalists would disagree with you.

How many of them moved to Somalia when it became a government-less anarchocapitalist paradise?

Metric Mouse

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #412 on: February 25, 2017, 09:58:38 PM »
Liberty cannot exist in a society without certain basic services commonly provided by government.
The anarchocapitalists would disagree with you.

How many of them moved to Somalia when it became a government-less anarchocapitalist paradise?
Reminds me of "communism works", its just that no one can ever show where it has worked...
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arebelspy

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #413 on: February 25, 2017, 10:10:33 PM »


You are nullifying the core principle of liberty if you allow for any involuntary transfers of property, aka taxation.

You're forgetting that the transfer of property through taxation is entirely voluntary.
Are you serious?  It is NOT voluntary.  See what happens if you don't "volunteer".

Well, I assume you'd leave, because you don't want to take part in that society voluntarily anymore.

So what happens when you try to leave?  I'm not aware of anyone forcing you to stay, but I'm not 100% sure which society you're in.

Is someone forcing you to stay?  If not, let us know how it goes when you stop volunteering to be in that society and leave! :)
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Classical_Liberal

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #414 on: February 26, 2017, 04:26:07 AM »
Reminds me of "communism works", its just that no one can ever show where it has worked...

CCCP, Cuba, Venezuela? or not so much.

Is someone forcing you to stay?  If not, let us know how it goes when you stop volunteering to be in that society and leave! :)

lol...and now the rallying cry of the egalitarian, democratic-socialist millennials is the same as their ultra-conservative, racist, hippy-hating grandfathers.  'merica, love it or leave it. 

All things do indeed come full circle, usually in the most hilarious of ways. 

jim555

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #415 on: February 26, 2017, 05:58:15 AM »
Our hermit friend buys a plot of land.  Sets down a tiny house.  Has solar panels, dugs a well, flys a helicopter to buy propane tanks.  Has no need of government services and expressly asks to be left alone.  How does the government have any right to ask him to leave?  It is his/her land.  The government has no claim for payment of services since they have no valid contract with the hermit.  Seriously you guys have no understanding of libertarianism.

bacchi

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #416 on: February 26, 2017, 09:15:54 AM »
Quote
Seriously you guys have no understanding of libertarianism.

Explain it better, then. I can't tell if the argument is that ALL taxation is theft and should be abolished or only SOME taxation is theft and should be abolished. Not much of what the hermit did could be done without a government and courts and a military.

bacchi

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #417 on: February 26, 2017, 09:16:54 AM »
lol...and now the rallying cry of the egalitarian, democratic-socialist millennials is the same as their ultra-conservative, racist, hippy-hating grandfathers.  'merica, love it or leave it. 

One sophomoric argument deserves another, after all.

GuitarStv

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #418 on: February 26, 2017, 09:22:29 AM »
lol...and now the rallying cry of the egalitarian, democratic-socialist millennials is the same as their ultra-conservative, racist, hippy-hating grandfathers.  'merica, love it or leave it. 

All things do indeed come full circle, usually in the most hilarious of ways.

That's a straw man.  Nobody said that you have to love the country you pay taxes in or leave it.  I'll reiterate for the folks who seem to have missed the multiple other times that it has been said:

Pay for the services you consume through taxes.

If you don't like to pay those taxes:
- You're free to change the way that the country works.  To do this in a democracy all that you need is to convince enough other people that you're viewpoint is correct and a change will happen.
- You're free to change your income level so that it's not being taxed at all.
- You're free to leave the country.

You have many options available to you.  The only one that's drawing condemnation is the fixation on stealing services from your countrymen.




Our hermit friend buys a plot of land.  Sets down a tiny house.  Has solar panels, dugs a well, flys a helicopter to buy propane tanks.  Has no need of government services and expressly asks to be left alone.  How does the government have any right to ask him to leave?  It is his/her land.  The government has no claim for payment of services since they have no valid contract with the hermit.  Seriously you guys have no understanding of libertarianism.

I get together fifty of my friends, raid your hermit's home in the middle of the night and kill him.  Yay liberty?

But even before I kill the hermit:
- You've indicated that your hermit friend bought a plot of land.  Where is the record of who owns that plot of land kept?  What happens if your neighbour builds a fence on your property?
- Who prevents a large pulp and paper mill from dumping toxic chemicals upstream of your hermit friend's plot of land?
- How did your friend get to the plot of land . . . did he use public roads?  Did he fly a helicopter through airspace kept safe by regulations and rules regarding flying vehicles?  Did he cross land owned by the country or other people?
- When your friend bought the solar panels, did he pay for them with government issued currency?  How are the propane tanks he uses refilled?

The idea of a person living in a society, completely isolated from society is kinda silly and really undermines the credibility of your argument.

jim555

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #419 on: February 26, 2017, 09:34:47 AM »
Quote
Seriously you guys have no understanding of libertarianism.

Explain it better, then. I can't tell if the argument is that ALL taxation is theft and should be abolished or only SOME taxation is theft and should be abolished. Not much of what the hermit did could be done without a government and courts and a military.
How is taxation not theft?  This is super basic.  Involuntary property transfers are not an example of libertarianism.  Why is this not obvious?
The hermit is also a pacifist and doesn't believe in self defense or courts or a military and believes they are harmful to society and he is now commanded to pay for these "services" which are not wanted. 


Metric Mouse

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #420 on: February 26, 2017, 09:45:02 AM »
Our hermit friend buys a plot of land.  Sets down a tiny house.  Has solar panels, dugs a well, flys a helicopter to buy propane tanks.  Has no need of government services and expressly asks to be left alone.  How does the government have any right to ask him to leave?  It is his/her land.  The government has no claim for payment of services since they have no valid contract with the hermit.  Seriously you guys have no understanding of libertarianism.
We understand, we simply disagree with the point of view on taxes.

How did the hermit buy a helicopter? Is the fuel or any of the parts transported along public roads? Then he should pay for them. Does he file a flight plan so no other helicopters fly into him? Does he land in any land not his when going to buy supplies? Was that propane pumped by a comapny using infrastructure that was regulated or financed by any level of government?

A hermit could avoid this, he just has to give up the benefits.  No trips to town. No supplies from anyone. No products shipped, built or sourced from anywhere outside of his woodland cave.  Otherwise he would be directly benefiting from government action. Of course, his income woulf be so small he likely wouldn't owe taxes anyway; so i would not be sure why he would be so worried.
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GuitarStv

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #421 on: February 26, 2017, 09:46:27 AM »
Quote
Seriously you guys have no understanding of libertarianism.

Explain it better, then. I can't tell if the argument is that ALL taxation is theft and should be abolished or only SOME taxation is theft and should be abolished. Not much of what the hermit did could be done without a government and courts and a military.
How is taxation not theft?  This is super basic.  Involuntary property transfers are not an example of libertarianism.  Why is this not obvious?
The hermit is also a pacifist and doesn't believe in self defense or courts or a military and believes they are harmful to society and he is now commanded to pay for these "services" which are not wanted.

How is the pacifist hermit going to keep me personally from taking his land and enslaving him?  Is that really the freedom libertarians yearn for?

jim555

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #422 on: February 26, 2017, 09:47:46 AM »
Our hermit friend buys a plot of land.  Sets down a tiny house.  Has solar panels, dugs a well, flys a helicopter to buy propane tanks.  Has no need of government services and expressly asks to be left alone.  How does the government have any right to ask him to leave?  It is his/her land.  The government has no claim for payment of services since they have no valid contract with the hermit.  Seriously you guys have no understanding of libertarianism.

I get together fifty of my friends, raid your hermit's home in the middle of the night and kill him.  Yay liberty?

How is that liberty?  Not getting your point.

But even before I kill the hermit:
- You've indicated that your hermit friend bought a plot of land.  Where is the record of who owns that plot of land kept?  What happens if your neighbour builds a fence on your property?
- Who prevents a large pulp and paper mill from dumping toxic chemicals upstream of your hermit friend's plot of land?
- How did your friend get to the plot of land . . . did he use public roads?  Did he fly a helicopter through airspace kept safe by regulations and rules regarding flying vehicles?  Did he cross land owned by the country or other people?
- When your friend bought the solar panels, did he pay for them with government issued currency?  How are the propane tanks he uses refilled?

The idea of a person living in a society, completely isolated from society is kinda silly and really undermines the credibility of your argument.
Who cares how isolated one is from society?  My point is that under libertarianism people can't be compelled to pay for services that didn't order. 

sol

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #423 on: February 26, 2017, 09:49:57 AM »
The idea of a person living in a society, completely isolated from society is kinda silly and really undermines the credibility of your argument.

That's because it was a silly argument to begin with.  No serious libertarian espouses the views that jim does.

But I understand why the idea seems so seductive.  People who haven't thought very carefully about it just LOVE the idea of getting all of those societal benefits for free, without paying for any of it.  Who doesn't love getting stuff for free?

Usually, I think libertarianism is most attractive to people (usually white male people) who have been convinced that the government has disadvantaged them.  They hate the idea that they pay for unemployment insurance, even though they're not employed.  They hate the fact that some people get section 8 housing subsidies, even though they love their mortgage interest deduction.  They think affirmative action and environmental regulations, which were designed to correct past mistakes, are instead an attempt to create more mistakes. 

If you tell a person for his whole life that government is helping someone else and not him, OF COURSE he will come to hate the government and turn to something stupid like libertarianism.  I think the way to combat this is to spend some time highlighting all of the things that government has provided for him, as GuitarStv has done. 

Though to that list, I should add that I sure hope that hypothetical hermit never went to public schools, or got vaccinations, or used fossil fuels or technology of any sort, or received medical care at a non-profit hospital.

jim555

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #424 on: February 26, 2017, 09:51:38 AM »
Quote
Seriously you guys have no understanding of libertarianism.

Explain it better, then. I can't tell if the argument is that ALL taxation is theft and should be abolished or only SOME taxation is theft and should be abolished. Not much of what the hermit did could be done without a government and courts and a military.
How is taxation not theft?  This is super basic.  Involuntary property transfers are not an example of libertarianism.  Why is this not obvious?
The hermit is also a pacifist and doesn't believe in self defense or courts or a military and believes they are harmful to society and he is now commanded to pay for these "services" which are not wanted.

How is the pacifist hermit going to keep me personally from taking his land and enslaving him?  Is that really the freedom libertarians yearn for?
He is a pacifist so he is cool with it.  Equal negative liberty is the liberty described in libertarianism, not everyone does whatever they want kind of liberty.

jim555

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #425 on: February 26, 2017, 09:59:50 AM »
Our hermit friend buys a plot of land.  Sets down a tiny house.  Has solar panels, dugs a well, flys a helicopter to buy propane tanks.  Has no need of government services and expressly asks to be left alone.  How does the government have any right to ask him to leave?  It is his/her land.  The government has no claim for payment of services since they have no valid contract with the hermit.  Seriously you guys have no understanding of libertarianism.
We understand, we simply disagree with the point of view on taxes.

How did the hermit buy a helicopter? Is the fuel or any of the parts transported along public roads? Then he should pay for them. Does he file a flight plan so no other helicopters fly into him? Does he land in any land not his when going to buy supplies? Was that propane pumped by a comapny using infrastructure that was regulated or financed by any level of government?

A hermit could avoid this, he just has to give up the benefits.  No trips to town. No supplies from anyone. No products shipped, built or sourced from anywhere outside of his woodland cave.  Otherwise he would be directly benefiting from government action. Of course, his income woulf be so small he likely wouldn't owe taxes anyway; so i would not be sure why he would be so worried.
Public roads don't exist in a libertarian society.  Some are toll roads others are jointly owned by housing associations.  Remember in pure libertarianism there is no violations of the NAP (except for private parties), and therefore no government.  This whole argument that someone has benefited by government action X and therefore owes the government money is absurd.  The government needs to show the contract if it wants people to pay it for whatever.

jim555

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #426 on: February 26, 2017, 10:09:16 AM »
I am kinda of confused, this thread is supposed to be for libertarians?  So where are they?

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #427 on: February 26, 2017, 10:32:39 AM »
Quote
Seriously you guys have no understanding of libertarianism.

Explain it better, then. I can't tell if the argument is that ALL taxation is theft and should be abolished or only SOME taxation is theft and should be abolished. Not much of what the hermit did could be done without a government and courts and a military.
How is taxation not theft?  This is super basic.  Involuntary property transfers are not an example of libertarianism.  Why is this not obvious?
The hermit is also a pacifist and doesn't believe in self defense or courts or a military and believes they are harmful to society and he is now commanded to pay for these "services" which are not wanted.

How is the pacifist hermit going to keep me personally from taking his land and enslaving him?  Is that really the freedom libertarians yearn for?
He is a pacifist so he is cool with it.  Equal negative liberty is the liberty described in libertarianism, not everyone does whatever they want kind of liberty.

You lose negative liberty when someone enslaves you.

You've just said that your hypothetical hermit is OK with having his freedom completely limited by slavery, but doesn't like taxes . . . because they limit his freedom.  That's not very logically consistent.

jim555

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #428 on: February 26, 2017, 10:38:30 AM »
You lose negative liberty when someone enslaves you.

You've just said that your hypothetical hermit is OK with having his freedom completely limited by slavery, but doesn't like taxes . . . because they limit his freedom.  That's not very logically consistent.
The pacifist is an example only, maybe he is not logical. 

sol

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #429 on: February 26, 2017, 10:42:34 AM »
I am kinda of confused, this thread is supposed to be for libertarians?  So where are they?

Most of them died out during the civil rights movement.

jim555

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #430 on: February 26, 2017, 10:55:13 AM »
I am kinda of confused, this thread is supposed to be for libertarians?  So where are they?

Most of them died out during the civil rights movement.
Freedom of association in libertarianism demands the civil rights act be repealed.  I can't believe Gary Johnson wanted to force people to bake cakes.

bacchi

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #431 on: February 26, 2017, 12:08:00 PM »
I am kinda of confused, this thread is supposed to be for libertarians?  So where are they?

No one wants to live in your ideal of libertarianism because it'll be a complete shit hole. They've accepted the social contract and don't believe that taxation is theft. (Why is this not obvious? It's super basic.)

GuitarStv listed the solutions. Rather than tilting at windmills, do one of the following:

Quote from: GuitarStv
If you don't like to pay those taxes:
- You're free to change the way that the country works.  To do this in a democracy all that you need is to convince enough other people that you're viewpoint is correct and a change will happen.
- You're free to change your income level so that it's not being taxed at all.
- You're free to leave the country.

I'd recommend a move to Galt's Gulch Chile but we know how that turned out.

arebelspy

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #432 on: February 26, 2017, 01:21:48 PM »


You lose negative liberty when someone enslaves you.

You've just said that your hypothetical hermit is OK with having his freedom completely limited by slavery, but doesn't like taxes . . . because they limit his freedom.  That's not very logically consistent.
The pacifist is an example only, maybe he is not logical.

I am kinda of confused, this thread is supposed to be for libertarians?  So where are they?


They are logical, unlike your hermit, and they don't want to be enslaved, like your hermit.

They understand some taxes are necessary, to recognize private property, protect contracts, provide defense, etc.

They work to minimize taxes, and thus don't want to defend your crazy version of libertarianism.


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jim555

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #433 on: February 26, 2017, 01:51:43 PM »
I am kinda of confused, this thread is supposed to be for libertarians?  So where are they?

No one wants to live in your ideal of libertarianism because it'll be a complete shit hole. They've accepted the social contract and don't believe that taxation is theft. (Why is this not obvious? It's super basic.)

GuitarStv listed the solutions. Rather than tilting at windmills, do one of the following:

Quote from: GuitarStv
If you don't like to pay those taxes:
- You're free to change the way that the country works.  To do this in a democracy all that you need is to convince enough other people that you're viewpoint is correct and a change will happen.
- You're free to change your income level so that it's not being taxed at all.
- You're free to leave the country.

I'd recommend a move to Galt's Gulch Chile but we know how that turned out.
I don't get this notion of if you don't like it then leave the country.  First off, there are no countries.  I keep hearing about a "social contract", where is this contract that I never signed?  Democracy and libertarianism are two different political notions that don't mix.

arebelspy

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #434 on: February 26, 2017, 02:28:19 PM »
The contract is us giving you all these awesome services you listed, and you agree to pay for them after. If you don't want the services, and/or don't want to pay, you decline the contract by leaving the society that requires it.

Or you work to change it, changing the societies laws, and thus the contract.

If you want no countries, and no laws, that's anarchy, not libertarianism.
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jim555

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #435 on: February 26, 2017, 02:39:23 PM »
The contract is us giving you all these awesome services you listed, and you agree to pay for them after. If you don't want the services, and/or don't want to pay, you decline the contract by leaving the society that requires it.

Or you work to change it, changing the societies laws, and thus the contract.

If you want no countries, and no laws, that's anarchy, not libertarianism.
Totally collectivist idea "social contract". 
Anarchocapitalism is the only logically consistent form of "government" under the philosophy.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #436 on: February 26, 2017, 03:02:36 PM »
The contract is us giving you all these awesome services you listed, and you agree to pay for them after. If you don't want the services, and/or don't want to pay, you decline the contract by leaving the society that requires it.

Or you work to change it, changing the societies laws, and thus the contract.

If you want no countries, and no laws, that's anarchy, not libertarianism.
Totally collectivist idea "social contract". 
Anarchocapitalism is the only logically consistent form of "government" under the philosophy.
Logical consistency doesn't assure you are starting with justifiable assumptions. One problem with hard-line libertarian ideologies like AnCap is the false assumption that people can be meaningfully thought of as completely sovereign entities with no moral obligations to each other beyond refraining from violation of another person's (negative) liberty.

I suspect people driven towards AnCap (as I once was a long time ago) dislike the grey territory of pragmatic libertarianism that seeks to maximize personal freedom and economic efficiency while respecting the role played by governments to solve difficult coordination problems like providing mutual defense, funding certain major infrastructure projects, and providing for some degree of social welfare. So instead these idealists rush towards the extreme pole of libertarianism and thus become ideologues--and having unmixed the grey into black and white, celebrate the simple appeal of taxation is theft! The role of all ideologies is to allow thoughtlessness to masquerade as virtue.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2017, 03:06:14 PM by lost_in_the_endless_aisle »

arebelspy

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #437 on: February 26, 2017, 03:09:52 PM »
The role of all ideologies is to allow thoughtlessness to masquerade as virtue.

Wow, insightful.
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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #438 on: February 26, 2017, 04:53:12 PM »
I am kinda of confused, this thread is supposed to be for libertarians?  So where are they?

Most of them died out during the civil rights movement.
Freedom of association in libertarianism demands the civil rights act be repealed.  I can't believe Gary Johnson wanted to force people to bake cakes.
Are you looking at this backwards? Doesn't that mean one has the right to associate with whomever they want, not the right to stop people from associating?  If one wishes to not associate, they are free to stop if they wish; they shouldn't have the right to stop other people with associating at their work place or their neighborhood or whatever, because this would be restricting freedom, not enhancing it.
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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #439 on: February 26, 2017, 05:41:19 PM »
I am kinda of confused, this thread is supposed to be for libertarians?  So where are they?

Most of them died out during the civil rights movement.
Freedom of association in libertarianism demands the civil rights act be repealed.  I can't believe Gary Johnson wanted to force people to bake cakes.
Are you looking at this backwards? Doesn't that mean one has the right to associate with whomever they want, not the right to stop people from associating?  If one wishes to not associate, they are free to stop if they wish; they shouldn't have the right to stop other people with associating at their work place or their neighborhood or whatever, because this would be restricting freedom, not enhancing it.
Can't quite figure out what you are saying.  People should have the right to refuse to associate with others, even if it is based on race, sexual orientation, religion or any other reason.  Gary Johnson would force a person to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple even if the baker objected to the wedding due to religious grounds.

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #440 on: February 26, 2017, 07:53:33 PM »
I am kinda of confused, this thread is supposed to be for libertarians?  So where are they?
I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm the OP, and I'd appreciate it if you'd please stop hijacking my thread to put forth an extreme anarchist viewpoint that you readily admit you don't even subscribe to yourself. 

jim555

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #441 on: February 27, 2017, 04:44:27 AM »
So I guess your not a fan of Murray Rothbard?

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #442 on: February 27, 2017, 07:05:19 AM »
I am kinda of confused, this thread is supposed to be for libertarians?  So where are they?

Maybe they left because of your extreme misrepresentation and constant antagonization?

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #443 on: February 27, 2017, 07:26:57 AM »
I am kinda of confused, this thread is supposed to be for libertarians?  So where are they?

Maybe they left because of your extreme misrepresentation and constant antagonization?
I don't think I have misrepresented at all.  There is a strong underlying anarchist strain in libertarianism.

arebelspy

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #444 on: February 27, 2017, 11:33:36 AM »
I am kinda of confused, this thread is supposed to be for libertarians?  So where are they?

Maybe they left because of your extreme misrepresentation and constant antagonization?
I don't think I have misrepresented at all.  There is a strong underlying anarchist strain in libertarianism.
There is a strong underlying theme. But they're not the same thing, which is basically what your position is.

Tell me: what do you see as the difference between anarchy and your version of libertarianism?
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jim555

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #445 on: February 27, 2017, 12:49:11 PM »
I am kinda of confused, this thread is supposed to be for libertarians?  So where are they?

Maybe they left because of your extreme misrepresentation and constant antagonization?
I don't think I have misrepresented at all.  There is a strong underlying anarchist strain in libertarianism.
There is a strong underlying theme. But they're not the same thing, which is basically what your position is.

Tell me: what do you see as the difference between anarchy and your version of libertarianism?
Depends on how one defines the word anarchy.  Historical anarchists where not libertarian but collectivist, they hated property, since they viewed the state as controlled by the upper classes who used the state and its rules to cement themselves into the top tier against the worker class.

Individualist anarchists like Spooner and Tucker held to private property and common law.  Deduction of the libertarian principle of the non-aggression led various libertarians to what is now called anarcho-capitalism.  All state functions being privatized. 

The liberty train has many stops: less government in general, constitutionalism, minarchism, anarcho-capitalism.  Some want off at various points. 

I don't see how one doesn't arrive at the last stop if you want to remain philosophically pure.

Everything hinges on one principle.  Even if it results in many people being left to die due to lack of medical care, or lack of food and shelter.  Under this thinking these end results can't be considered because the principle must be upheld.  Personally I don't see this system as workable in real life.

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #446 on: February 27, 2017, 01:27:29 PM »
Personally I don't see this system as workable in real life.

So did you come to this thread looking for extremist libertarians because you wanted to argue against their ridiculous views?  Because instead you have ended up vocally supporting those same ridiculous views, while a variety of people, both libertarians and non-libertarians, have told you you're being ridiculous.

I'm still not sure where you stand.  If you're playing devils advocate here, I'm not sure you've done a very good job.

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #447 on: February 27, 2017, 03:13:43 PM »
This thread has turned into pseudo political science. Philosophy and ideology evolve like language.

"But what does Libertarian MEAN?" Whatever the masses of Libertarians think it means.

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #448 on: February 27, 2017, 06:25:18 PM »
Guys, I realized that I was being trolled when he mentioned that the example he was using was logically inconsistent.  He has also mentioned that he doesn't believe that the system he's arguing for is possible to implement in reality.

That's kinda a brick wall to productive discussion.

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #449 on: February 27, 2017, 07:21:34 PM »
This thread has turned into pseudo political science. Philosophy and ideology evolve like language.

"But what does Libertarian MEAN?" Whatever the masses of Libertarians think it means.
I just assume whatever Gary Johnson says is cannon.
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