Author Topic: Who else here is a libertarian?  (Read 26022 times)

Libertea

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Who else here is a libertarian?
« on: August 29, 2016, 04:56:57 PM »
I don't mean just out of disgust for the current "choices" being offered by the major political parties.  I want to know who else here holds general libertarian beliefs (i.e., supports less government involvement in our lives both socially and fiscally)?  Membership in the capital L Libertarian party is not required in order to give an affirmative answer to this question!

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2016, 05:37:40 PM »
Me!

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Spork

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2016, 05:39:27 PM »
Present.
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katsiki

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2016, 05:48:59 PM »
Me.  Still hoping for the 4 years of Ron Paul that this country needs.

Rufus.T.Firefly

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2016, 05:54:31 PM »
While no party fully represents my positions, the Libertarian party is the most close reflection.
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LeRainDrop

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2016, 06:04:00 PM »
I hold general libertarian beliefs.  Anecdotally, what I've been seeing among many of my friends around my age (let's say 30 to 38) who had been involved with College Republicans is that we've increasingly grown less comfortable standing by the party using government to advance socially-conservative/religious beliefs.  We never really liked that to begin with, but it seemed to be something we kinda put aside in favor of supporting their other policies.  The current dichotomy of Trump/Clinton has perhaps catalyzed many of us to finally break from the Republican party and say, hey, that's not really what we stand for!  We don't have to choose one of the "two parties."

Libertea

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2016, 06:32:22 PM »
Me.  Still hoping for the 4 years of Ron Paul that this country needs.
I like him too, but he's in his 80s, and I don't think that's ever going to happen unless we can turn back the clock twenty years.  Maybe we will have better luck with Rand in the future....

I hold general libertarian beliefs.  Anecdotally, what I've been seeing among many of my friends around my age (let's say 30 to 38) who had been involved with College Republicans is that we've increasingly grown less comfortable standing by the party using government to advance socially-conservative/religious beliefs.  We never really liked that to begin with, but it seemed to be something we kinda put aside in favor of supporting their other policies.  The current dichotomy of Trump/Clinton has perhaps catalyzed many of us to finally break from the Republican party and say, hey, that's not really what we stand for!  We don't have to choose one of the "two parties."
I'm a little older than you (early 40s), but I basically feel the same way.  I have voted capital L Libertarian before, but this year I actually donated money to Gary Johnson's campaign, which I have never done before to any political candidate.

arebelspy

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2016, 06:37:09 PM »
A year or two ago, I'd have said a definite yes.

But now, I'm less and less Libertarian as the years go on (mostly due to the hardcore nuts online who put forth too extreme of a view with no room for compromise), but I still identify as mostly libertarian and there's no other party I could identify with.

I'd guess I'll eventually identify as non-partisan, but we'll see.
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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2016, 06:39:45 PM »
Lib as far as they are influenced by Smith and Hayek.  The ones who are influenced by Ayn Rand trouble me deeply.
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Libertea

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2016, 06:41:21 PM »
A year or two ago, I'd have said a definite yes.

But now, I'm less and less Libertarian as the years go on (mostly due to the hardcore nuts online who put forth too extreme of a view with no room for compromise), but I still identify as mostly libertarian and there's no other party I could identify with.

I'd guess I'll eventually identify as non-partisan, but we'll see.
Yeah, but all the parties have their whack jobs.  There's no escaping them.  Still, that's a big reason why I wouldn't call myself a capital L Libertarian also.  (I'm actually registered as a Republican, but that's mostly because I live in a closed-primary state.  I proudly admit to being a RINO.)

arebelspy

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2016, 06:44:20 PM »
Lib as far as they are influenced by Smith and Hayek.  The ones who are influenced by Ayn Rand trouble me deeply.

Indeed.
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Tom Bri

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2016, 07:34:32 PM »
Pretty much still a lib. Used to be a Lib, back in the Ron Paul days in the 1980s. I've talked myself out of the open-borders ideology. To be honest, I doubt most people would like living in a really libertarian society, so I currently favor a much more federal system, with lots of home-rule cities so people can easily self-segregate.

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2016, 09:54:34 PM »
At my heart I'm Libertarian.  I do accept that the complex modern web of society as it exists will require more gov't intervention and regulation to function than I would personally prefer.   At best Gov't is less efficient than the market, but the trade is it helps to maintain organization and a level playing field for all.  At worst it forces "equality of all" (except those in power); corruption & cronyism turn inefficiency to blatant waste and favoritism to those few in power.  I feel the US is currently slighter closer to the later in this spectrum, I'll be voting for Johnson. 

badbear

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2016, 10:31:42 PM »
Yes, I'll be casting my vote for Gary Johnson in November. It would be nice to see him in the debates, but I think the debate commission will most likely keep him out. On policy, balance the budget, let people have freedom as long as it does not harm others, and stop invading foreign nations. Eliminate overly burdensome regulation which was created to prevent competition from smaller companies, attempt to stop crony capitalism, and create a level playing field for real competition. I'm always surprised when people are fiscally responsible in their own lives but don't expect the same from their government. Neither D's or the R's are fiscally conservative anymore, on the whole. Among those in federal elected office, I align most with Rand Paul in the Senate and Justin Amash in the House.

shenlong55

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2016, 08:21:43 AM »
At best Gov't is less efficient than the market...

Do you happen to have any sources for that?  I hear it all the time, but I've never seen any actual studies.

little_brown_dog

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2016, 08:34:04 AM »
I lean libertarian on some things, but I do believe government oversight and rules are needed on big issues that a truly free market isn’t well equipped to handle without significantly risking or harming the population (ex:  education, healthcare, the environment).  From what I can tell, free market ideologies work well for luxury goods or necessities where there is considerable wiggle room (ex: housing), but what about education, health services, or wildlife habitat? In a truly free market, schools, hospitals, and conservation land are all on the chopping block even if their removal/failure or destruction directly harms people/the environment. I believe in limiting government waste, improving efficiency, and protecting the people's individual freedoms…not economic social Darwinism. Unfortunately most of the libertarians I have met in person seem to be extreme rugged individualists/social Darwinist proponents, so I have a hard time relating even though I do agree with some of the libertarian principles.

Can you be libertarian if you believe in a pick and choose kind of style of government intervention??? If so, then I guess I'd be one!
« Last Edit: August 30, 2016, 08:42:39 AM by little_brown_dog »

Spork

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2016, 08:51:14 AM »
Lib as far as they are influenced by Smith and Hayek.  The ones who are influenced by Ayn Rand trouble me deeply.

Indeed.

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BTDretire

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2016, 09:28:05 AM »
I have voted republican since the 80's. (caveat later)
The event that galvanized me:
We were buying a house in the 80's and a 30 year mortgage was
16-3/4%. My wife and I had been married 3 years and had been
good MMM'ers, we had about $25K saved and in those high interest days it was
earning about $2.5k a year.
 Our income was low, in the $18k range.
 The state I was in had a subsidized mortgage program with 9% mortgage rates.
I had applied, and was denied because my income was to high, yep, by about $2k.
 So if we had not tried to get ahead by living frugal and saving all we could, the government would help. If I had bought a new car, drank beer and ate out several times a week, yee old government would be right there to help.
I ended up with a 13-3/4% mortgage with a 3 year balloon payment.
It's been 32 years, and I still say government programs can go F%$& themselves.
 As to voting republican, I'm probably more libertarian.
But I'll vote republican because, a libertarian vote is wasted, no chance to win.
 I want small government, I'm pro-choice but don't think it's a good choice.
Stop putting people in jail for drugs. I think we need borders, 30 years ago!
Married to a legal immigrant, and think they actually make a America better.
 I think if you don't have it together enough to get a photo ID, you don't have what it takes to make an informed vote. If you are on welfare, I don't think you should be able to vote yourself more welfare.
 And with that I'll go get my fire extinguisher.

 Edit to add the libertarian platform.
https://www.lp.org/platform
« Last Edit: August 30, 2016, 10:02:17 AM by Qmavam »

MVal

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2016, 09:29:43 AM »
Me.  Still hoping for the 4 years of Ron Paul that this country needs.

I'm with ya, there!
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arebelspy

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2016, 02:27:24 PM »
Lib as far as they are influenced by Smith and Hayek.  The ones who are influenced by Ayn Rand trouble me deeply.

Indeed.

We are really not that scary.

Most of you are.  I'd be trying to distance myself from the rest, who often seem to foam at the mouth and have little regard for other people.  Actually, if I was trying to guess a political party for a sociopath...   ;)

That's the problem with Libertarians, and why I've slowly stopped ID'ing as one--the ones who post online mostly seem to lack empathy.  I love the theory of libertarianism, but I also see the need to help others, whereas it seems most libs want to say "well, that's the responsibility of the (local) community/family" and just tragedy of the commons/bystander effect away the problem so they don't have to do anything.

My apologies for the overgeneralization here.  I'm sure it's present company excluded.  That's just been my anecdotal experience--libertarianism is great.  Libertarians, not so much.  Actually, the same problem I first had as a teenager with religion, which started me on the path to distancing myself from all religions--the institution didn't seem so bad (at the time), but the people representing it, ugh. 

Now what other broad groups can I insult?  :P

That's part of why I like Mustachianism--not only do I like the underlying theory Pete puts forth on his blog, but having met a lot of Mustachians (attended many meetups, stayed with Mustachians, etc.), they're pretty interesting, good people in general.  Ditto Pastafarians.  The Church of the FSM tends to attract funny, intelligent people.  Libertarians have some of that, but also many more vocal people who equate taxes to rape and theft and who just like to shout.  Most of those seem to be huge Ayn Rand fans (...and we're back on track.  Nailed it.).
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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2016, 02:41:27 PM »
Lib as far as they are influenced by Smith and Hayek.  The ones who are influenced by Ayn Rand trouble me deeply.

Indeed.

We are really not that scary.

Most of you are.  I'd be trying to distance myself from the rest, who often seem to foam at the mouth and have little regard for other people.  Actually, if I was trying to guess a political party for a sociopath...   ;)

That's the problem with Libertarians, and why I've slowly stopped ID'ing as one--the ones who post online mostly seem to lack empathy.  I love the theory of libertarianism, but I also see the need to help others, whereas it seems most libs want to say "well, that's the responsibility of the (local) community/family" and just tragedy of the commons/bystander effect away the problem so they don't have to do anything.

My apologies for the overgeneralization here.  I'm sure it's present company excluded.  That's just been my anecdotal experience--libertarianism is great.  Libertarians, not so much.  Actually, the same problem I first had as a teenager with religion, which started me on the path to distancing myself from all religions--the institution didn't seem so bad (at the time), but the people representing it, ugh. 

Now what other broad groups can I insult?  :P

That's part of why I like Mustachianism--not only do I like the underlying theory Pete puts forth on his blog, but having met a lot of Mustachians (attended many meetups, stayed with Mustachians, etc.), they're pretty interesting, good people in general.  Ditto Pastafarians.  The Church of the FSM tends to attract funny, intelligent people.  Libertarians have some of that, but also many more vocal people who equate taxes to rape and theft and who just like to shout.  Most of those seem to be huge Ayn Rand fans (...and we're back on track.  Nailed it.).

Bonus points for narrative construction and humor

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2016, 02:56:23 PM »
Lib as far as they are influenced by Smith and Hayek.  The ones who are influenced by Ayn Rand trouble me deeply.

Indeed.

We are really not that scary.

Most of you are.  I'd be trying to distance myself from the rest, who often seem to foam at the mouth and have little regard for other people.  Actually, if I was trying to guess a political party for a sociopath...   ;)


Meh.   I've met quite a lot of them.  (And for the tiny slice of the population this represents, I suspect I've met more than most.)  I like some of them.  I don't like some of them. 

A few of the current top "objectivist elite" are not very likable... and (IMO) that does have some tendency to breed like folk in the followers.  I met a small number of the "elite" back in the 80s -- most very likable and down to earth.  I am not sure that holds true today.

FWIW, Objectivists (big O) shun Libertarians (big L).  There was a big schism there back in the 80s that was just stupid.   Because of this, there are not a whole lot of "Ayn Rand libertarians" out there.
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arebelspy

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2016, 03:26:58 PM »
A few of the current top "objectivist elite" are not very likable... and (IMO) that does have some tendency to breed like folk in the followers.  I met a small number of the "elite" back in the 80s -- most very likable and down to earth.  I am not sure that holds true today.

I think you take it much more seriously and high-level than the vast majority that identify as such and post online their theories.

Quote
FWIW, Objectivists (big O) shun Libertarians (big L).  There was a big schism there back in the 80s that was just stupid.   Because of this, there are not a whole lot of "Ayn Rand libertarians" out there.

I tentatively disagree.  I don't know to what you're referring, but a split 30 years ago has what effect on a 20 year old who's just read Ayn Rand and self ID's as a Libertarian?  Maybe for the 50 and 60 year olds who remember it and care about it.  Maybe.

I'm curious then, what political party do you think most Objectivists self-identify as?  (The party with the most of them, even if it's not a majority.)
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RangerOne

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2016, 04:25:04 PM »
At this point I am starting to believe that 8 years of a branch of government going full libertarian would do us a lot of good. We need to stop adding new programs and start seriously considering discarding ones we think are failing or are too regressive like social security. Neither Repubs nor Democrats are willing to do this.

My big issue with Johnson is I think he is too soft on climate change. He essentially now saying the free market can deal with the problem without considering options like a carbon tax. If you let the free markets roll totally uninhibited new coal power plants would spring up like weeds. The free market solution at least historically has always been the carbon tax. Instead of telling a business they can't produce carbon just make it very expensive so the invest in ways to reduce emissions. I think he needs to fall back to this position or come out and say he doesn't believe climate change is potentially disastrous.

Every other issue is less critical to me and I think up for grabs given sound economic principles are followed.

I have been listening to a lot of old Milton Friedman lectures and I have to say he makes a lot of sense. Perhaps the best an only way to remove corruption from government is to remove much of the power over industry that ensures their corruption. And let greed and competition regulate behavior more naturally.

Its an argument tough to swallow at first for someone raised and schooled in a very liberal environment but in many cases I think Dr. Friedman's arguments have a lot of merit.

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2016, 04:44:23 PM »
My big issue with Johnson is I think he is too soft on climate change. He essentially now saying the free market can deal with the problem without considering options like a carbon tax. If you let the free markets roll totally uninhibited new coal power plants would spring up like weeds. The free market solution at least historically has always been the carbon tax. Instead of telling a business they can't produce carbon just make it very expensive so the invest in ways to reduce emissions. I think he needs to fall back to this position or come out and say he doesn't believe climate change is potentially disastrous.

[snip]

I have been listening to a lot of old Milton Friedman lectures

Friedman suggested taxing pollution ("effluent"). Pollution is, of course, the perfect negative externality.

yuka

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2016, 04:54:42 PM »
I guess I'd have to say I'm a libertarian, although I don't really have any interest in ideological purity; I just want a few of the really important things done. I'd vote for Hillary Clinton if I thought she could and would clean up the mess caused by NHA 1934/FHA. I'd be perhaps even more inclined to vote for someone who acknowledged that our current infrastructure needs the $2 trillion that ASCE says over the next decade, but whose solution is to shrink our infrastructure to a level that makes sense.

Having said that, it really seems weird to me when people say they want small government at every level. I want powerful local governments; I just don't want all the federal and state programs that encourage towns to do really stupid things.

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2016, 05:06:34 PM »
I'm libertarian.

The weird thing about libertarianism, and  I suspect third parties in general, is that somehow we have to 100% support the platform. In this thread there's people saying "I'd be libertarian but...."

Do any of those stipulations EVER get applied to the main parties? I doubt very many people actually adhere to such a stringent interpretation of either D or R parties.

I don't agree with the (L) party on everything, nor do I think we need to go all the way to some supposed libertarian ideal. But I do want/think we need libertarian influence on the current state of affairs. Slide the scale towards liberatarianism to counterbalance what I view as a very top heavy statist government at the moment.

Libertea

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2016, 01:48:38 AM »
I'm libertarian.

The weird thing about libertarianism, and  I suspect third parties in general, is that somehow we have to 100% support the platform. In this thread there's people saying "I'd be libertarian but...."

Do any of those stipulations EVER get applied to the main parties? I doubt very many people actually adhere to such a stringent interpretation of either D or R parties.

I don't agree with the (L) party on everything, nor do I think we need to go all the way to some supposed libertarian ideal. But I do want/think we need libertarian influence on the current state of affairs. Slide the scale towards liberatarianism to counterbalance what I view as a very top heavy statist government at the moment.
I completely agree with this.  I don't agree with everything that ANYONE else besides myself believes.  (If I did, that would be kind of scary, like I had a mental clone!)  Not sure why the double standard.

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2016, 06:39:57 AM »
I'm libertarian.

The weird thing about libertarianism, and  I suspect third parties in general, is that somehow we have to 100% support the platform. In this thread there's people saying "I'd be libertarian but...."

Do any of those stipulations EVER get applied to the main parties? I doubt very many people actually adhere to such a stringent interpretation of either D or R parties.

I don't agree with the (L) party on everything, nor do I think we need to go all the way to some supposed libertarian ideal. But I do want/think we need libertarian influence on the current state of affairs. Slide the scale towards liberatarianism to counterbalance what I view as a very top heavy statist government at the moment.

I don't think that people have to 100% support the platform of a third party.  Third parties tend to have a bunch of good ideas and a few horrifically bad ones that prevent support from most voters.  (Even in this thread you have people indicating that some of the ideas of the Libertarian party are terrifying.)  If they could iron out the more extreme stances, I'd fully expect a more widespread acceptance of them as political leaders.

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #30 on: August 31, 2016, 09:17:36 AM »
I think that if you polled the thoughtful people of this country, you'd find most are fiscally conservative and socially liberal.  I had always been a Republican and still am to some degree.  But in the past few years, I've been leaning more toward being libertarian.  There are some social issues (abortion, pot legalization, prostitution, etc.) that I soul search on.  But if I'm honest, what a person wants to do with their own body is their business.  And I think that Republicans who take their stand on these issues do so at their own peril as it relates to getting elected. 

katsiki

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #31 on: August 31, 2016, 09:26:12 AM »
If we only had more 'thoughtful' people and they voted..

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2016, 09:34:09 AM »
I think that if you polled the thoughtful people of this country, you'd find most are fiscally conservative and socially liberal.  I had always been a Republican and still am to some degree.  But in the past few years, I've been leaning more toward being libertarian.  There are some social issues (abortion, pot legalization, prostitution, etc.) that I soul search on.  But if I'm honest, what a person wants to do with their own body is their business.  And I think that Republicans who take their stand on these issues do so at their own peril as it relates to getting elected.

Strongly disagree (unless you have a very restrictive definition of thoughtful).  I think you'd find most people are fiscally conservative and socially liberal in theory, but they have a reason why their pet issue is an exception.  Most of the pet issues would be around spending, but there would be some social stuff also.  At best, most people believe in unlimited government, they just only want that unlimited power excercised in a narrow sphere.  Of course everybody's choice of sphere is a little different, so you end up with the behemoth that we currently have.

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #33 on: August 31, 2016, 09:37:13 AM »
I'm libertarian.

The weird thing about libertarianism, and  I suspect third parties in general, is that somehow we have to 100% support the platform. In this thread there's people saying "I'd be libertarian but...."

Do any of those stipulations EVER get applied to the main parties? I doubt very many people actually adhere to such a stringent interpretation of either D or R parties.

I don't agree with the (L) party on everything, nor do I think we need to go all the way to some supposed libertarian ideal. But I do want/think we need libertarian influence on the current state of affairs. Slide the scale towards liberatarianism to counterbalance what I view as a very top heavy statist government at the moment.

I don't think that people have to 100% support the platform of a third party.  Third parties tend to have a bunch of good ideas and a few horrifically bad ones that prevent support from most voters.  (Even in this thread you have people indicating that some of the ideas of the Libertarian party are terrifying.)  If they could iron out the more extreme stances, I'd fully expect a more widespread acceptance of them as political leaders.

Exactly. I like some of the fiscal ideas of the libertarian party, but if I vote for them, I’d also end up voting for someone that will probably take an extremely hands off approach to the environment or vulnerable groups (the elderly, the poor). The libertarian party has a problem because many people who are very socially liberal and could be potential libertarian voters, also happen to be big proponents for helping the poor and protecting the planet. These voters cannot accept the idea that people and the environment should be at the mercy of a market that only cares about profit. As a result, they can’t vote libertarian even if they also want to see government reduced in other areas. The idea that someone might say "eh let the market take care of the planet/the poor...it will work itself out...trust us" is absolutely terrifying.
I am registered as an independent and will probably vote democrat even though it really is a pick your poison scenario for someone like me. I'd love a nuanced libertarian candidate that recognizes the strengths and limitations of free market ideologies and as a result, implements policy positions in a very tailored fashion. This person would take a very strong stance on environmental protection/global warming, and acknowledge the need to fund and tightly regulate healthcare and education while looking for areas to improve state governance and efficiency in the fed system. Alas, I don't see a candidate like that. I can't throw education, healthcare, and the planet to the wolves no matter how much I agree with certain tax positions.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2016, 09:42:51 AM by little_brown_dog »

Jrr85

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #34 on: August 31, 2016, 09:48:52 AM »
I'm libertarian.

The weird thing about libertarianism, and  I suspect third parties in general, is that somehow we have to 100% support the platform. In this thread there's people saying "I'd be libertarian but...."

Do any of those stipulations EVER get applied to the main parties? I doubt very many people actually adhere to such a stringent interpretation of either D or R parties.

I don't agree with the (L) party on everything, nor do I think we need to go all the way to some supposed libertarian ideal. But I do want/think we need libertarian influence on the current state of affairs. Slide the scale towards liberatarianism to counterbalance what I view as a very top heavy statist government at the moment.

I don't think that people have to 100% support the platform of a third party.  Third parties tend to have a bunch of good ideas and a few horrifically bad ones that prevent support from most voters.  (Even in this thread you have people indicating that some of the ideas of the Libertarian party are terrifying.)  If they could iron out the more extreme stances, I'd fully expect a more widespread acceptance of them as political leaders.

Exactly. I like some of the fiscal ideas of the libertarian party, but if I vote for them, I’d also end up voting for someone that will probably take an extremely hands off approach to the environment or vulnerable groups (the elderly, the poor). The libertarian party has a problem because many people who are very socially liberal and could be potential libertarian voters, also happen to be big proponents for helping the poor and protecting the planet. These voters cannot accept the idea that people and the environment should be at the mercy of a market that only cares about profit. As a result, they can’t vote libertarian even if they also want to see government reduced in other areas. The idea that someone might say "eh let the market take care of the planet/the poor...it will work itself out...trust us" is absolutely terrifying.
I am registered as an independent and will probably vote democrat even though it really is a pick your poison scenario for someone like me. I'd love a nuanced libertarian candidate that recognizes the strengths and limitations of free market ideologies and as a result, implements policy positions in a very tailored fashion. This person would take a very strong stance on environmental protection/global warming, and acknowledge the need to fund and tightly regulate healthcare and education while looking for areas to improve state governance and efficiency in the fed system. Alas, I don't see a candidate like that. I can't throw education, healthcare, and the planet to the wolves no matter how much I agree with certain tax positions.

In other words, the problem with the libertarian party is most people are not libertarian, and you would vote for the libertarian party, except that you are not very libertarian. 

That is most of the libertarian party's problem.  There is a phenomenon the libertarian party faces where people that actually have libertarian views refuse to identify with the party because of differences in policies that would be dwarfed by the average Democrat or Republican's problem with their own party's platform.  I think this is just a reflection of certain types of people drawn to libertarian philosophy.  They don't want to coerce other people in part because they are uncomfortable with the idea of subjugating the individual to a group, and this also makes them less likely to want to consider themselves a member of the Libertarian party. 

ETA: bolded portion
« Last Edit: August 31, 2016, 11:08:30 AM by Jrr85 »

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2016, 09:53:30 AM »

Quote
FWIW, Objectivists (big O) shun Libertarians (big L).  There was a big schism there back in the 80s that was just stupid.   Because of this, there are not a whole lot of "Ayn Rand libertarians" out there.

I tentatively disagree.  I don't know to what you're referring, but a split 30 years ago has what effect on a 20 year old who's just read Ayn Rand and self ID's as a Libertarian?  Maybe for the 50 and 60 year olds who remember it and care about it.  Maybe.

I'm curious then, what political party do you think most Objectivists self-identify as?  (The party with the most of them, even if it's not a majority.)

Well, the split continues... at least in the (big O) Objectivist subculture.  They still publish essays on why Libertarianism is wrong.  I really disagree with them on this point.  I totally understand where you are coming from in your objections... I'm just saying the big-O guys are still very anti-libertarian.

As to what party they align with: None.  Again: This is really dumb, IMO.  Over the years there have been "you should vote Republican this year" and "you should vote Democrat this year" essays.  As the Republicans became more and more religious, there was more often support thrown to the Democrats.  If I remember correctly, there was light support for Romney last election -- not because they liked him, but because they thought he was a bumbling guy that wouldn't get things done (vs Obama which they thought was going to destroy the world in the next 4 years).

Now: Obviously Obama didn't quite destroy the world.  They often see much more disaster coming much sooner than I do.  My point was: they did not back Johnson in 2012.  (But I voted for him.)

I can's say I've read anything from various big-O people on this election.  I know they hate both sides (and Johnson) pretty equally.  If I were to guess, I would guess they would say to abstain from voting on principle.

But... we may be talking about 2 groups of folks.  You: average Joe that read Atlas Shrugged last month.  Me: Joe-Objectivist that has read most of her published works and reads various essays published by various big-O "elites."  And that means we're probably mostly in agreement, just talking about different sub-topics.  My accidental misdirection was at the "foaming at the mouth" group you describe... because of those I have met, that's more likely to fall into the big-O group that despises big-L libertarianism.
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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2016, 10:35:30 AM »

Exactly. I like some of the fiscal ideas of the libertarian party, but if I vote for them, I’d also end up voting for someone that will probably take an extremely hands off approach to the environment or vulnerable groups (the elderly, the poor). The libertarian party has a problem because many people who are very socially liberal and could be potential libertarian voters, also happen to be big proponents for helping the poor and protecting the planet. These voters cannot accept the idea that people and the environment should be at the mercy of a market that only cares about profit. As a result, they can’t vote libertarian even if they also want to see government reduced in other areas. The idea that someone might say "eh let the market take care of the planet/the poor...it will work itself out...trust us" is absolutely terrifying.
I am registered as an independent and will probably vote democrat even though it really is a pick your poison scenario for someone like me. I'd love a nuanced libertarian candidate that recognizes the strengths and limitations of free market ideologies and as a result, implements policy positions in a very tailored fashion. This person would take a very strong stance on environmental protection/global warming, and acknowledge the need to fund and tightly regulate healthcare and education while looking for areas to improve state governance and efficiency in the fed system. Alas, I don't see a candidate like that. I can't throw education, healthcare, and the planet to the wolves no matter how much I agree with certain tax positions.

In other words, the problem with the libertarian party is most people are not libertarian, and you would vote for the libertarian party, except that you are not very libertarian. 

That is most of the libertarian party's problem.  There is a phenomenon the libertarian party faces where people that actually have libertarian views refuse to identify with the party because of differences in policies that would dwarf the average Democrat or Republican's problem with their own party's platform.  I think this is just a reflection of certain types of people drawn to libertarian philosophy.  They don't want to coerce other people in part because they are uncomfortable with the idea of subjugating the individual to a group, and this also makes them less likely to want to consider themselves a member of the Libertarian party.

Yes – I guess you could consider me “libertarian leaning” or “libertarian-lite” :)

I think you hit the nail on the head when you talk about the magnitude of differences within a party. For example, the dems as a whole seem to have a pretty cohesive ideology across the issues. Sure they squabble about  the details- $15 vs $12 min wage, how far the environmental regulations should go, etc. But overall the general sentiment (increase the wage, implement environmental regulations) is quite cohesive. There is a lot more ideological variation in libertarian leaning voters, which makes it hard to really craft a platform and party that maximizes voter turn out. Some of us are adamant about environmental protection, others not at all. Some find the idea of letting the market handle healthcare perfectly fine, while others think it will be a complete disaster. Some have no problem with high taxes...as long as it's your state and not the fed. These differences are major ideological ones, not minor disagreements about details that people are willing to compromise on. I think that makes it harder to groom a candidate that more people could get behind. The potential voters are just all over the map.

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2016, 10:57:15 AM »

Quote
FWIW, Objectivists (big O) shun Libertarians (big L).  There was a big schism there back in the 80s that was just stupid.   Because of this, there are not a whole lot of "Ayn Rand libertarians" out there.

I tentatively disagree.  I don't know to what you're referring, but a split 30 years ago has what effect on a 20 year old who's just read Ayn Rand and self ID's as a Libertarian?  Maybe for the 50 and 60 year olds who remember it and care about it.  Maybe.

I'm curious then, what political party do you think most Objectivists self-identify as?  (The party with the most of them, even if it's not a majority.)

Well, the split continues... at least in the (big O) Objectivist subculture.  They still publish essays on why Libertarianism is wrong.  I really disagree with them on this point.  I totally understand where you are coming from in your objections... I'm just saying the big-O guys are still very anti-libertarian.

As to what party they align with: None.  Again: This is really dumb, IMO.  Over the years there have been "you should vote Republican this year" and "you should vote Democrat this year" essays.  As the Republicans became more and more religious, there was more often support thrown to the Democrats.  If I remember correctly, there was light support for Romney last election -- not because they liked him, but because they thought he was a bumbling guy that wouldn't get things done (vs Obama which they thought was going to destroy the world in the next 4 years).

Now: Obviously Obama didn't quite destroy the world.  They often see much more disaster coming much sooner than I do.  My point was: they did not back Johnson in 2012.  (But I voted for him.)

I can's say I've read anything from various big-O people on this election.  I know they hate both sides (and Johnson) pretty equally.  If I were to guess, I would guess they would say to abstain from voting on principle.

But... we may be talking about 2 groups of folks.  You: average Joe that read Atlas Shrugged last month.  Me: Joe-Objectivist that has read most of her published works and reads various essays published by various big-O "elites."  And that means we're probably mostly in agreement, just talking about different sub-topics.  My accidental misdirection was at the "foaming at the mouth" group you describe... because of those I have met, that's more likely to fall into the big-O group that despises big-L libertarianism.

My favorite 'game the election' libertarian idea is that you should always vote Democrat rather than Republican because of the reasons for their various policies. Democrat policy is supposed to be pragmatic, so the bad stuff should be quickly found out and repealed, whereas Republicans, whose policy is theoretically grounded more in dogma, are less likely to care whether something works. I like the theory, though I think Venezuela might be a good example of another way that things could go.

For a more local example of bad Democrat policy not going away, we can look at the National Homeowners Act of 1934.  Despite institutionalizing segregation and making it very hard to pursue prosperous land use patterns, it's been in place for nearly a century.

Jrr85

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2016, 11:22:52 AM »

Exactly. I like some of the fiscal ideas of the libertarian party, but if I vote for them, I’d also end up voting for someone that will probably take an extremely hands off approach to the environment or vulnerable groups (the elderly, the poor). The libertarian party has a problem because many people who are very socially liberal and could be potential libertarian voters, also happen to be big proponents for helping the poor and protecting the planet. These voters cannot accept the idea that people and the environment should be at the mercy of a market that only cares about profit. As a result, they can’t vote libertarian even if they also want to see government reduced in other areas. The idea that someone might say "eh let the market take care of the planet/the poor...it will work itself out...trust us" is absolutely terrifying.
I am registered as an independent and will probably vote democrat even though it really is a pick your poison scenario for someone like me. I'd love a nuanced libertarian candidate that recognizes the strengths and limitations of free market ideologies and as a result, implements policy positions in a very tailored fashion. This person would take a very strong stance on environmental protection/global warming, and acknowledge the need to fund and tightly regulate healthcare and education while looking for areas to improve state governance and efficiency in the fed system. Alas, I don't see a candidate like that. I can't throw education, healthcare, and the planet to the wolves no matter how much I agree with certain tax positions.

In other words, the problem with the libertarian party is most people are not libertarian, and you would vote for the libertarian party, except that you are not very libertarian. 

That is most of the libertarian party's problem.  There is a phenomenon the libertarian party faces where people that actually have libertarian views refuse to identify with the party because of differences in policies that would dwarf the average Democrat or Republican's problem with their own party's platform.  I think this is just a reflection of certain types of people drawn to libertarian philosophy.  They don't want to coerce other people in part because they are uncomfortable with the idea of subjugating the individual to a group, and this also makes them less likely to want to consider themselves a member of the Libertarian party.

Yes – I guess you could consider me “libertarian leaning” or “libertarian-lite” :)

I think you hit the nail on the head when you talk about the magnitude of differences within a party. For example, the dems as a whole seem to have a pretty cohesive ideology across the issues. Sure they squabble about  the details- $15 vs $12 min wage, how far the environmental regulations should go, etc. But overall the general sentiment (increase the wage, implement environmental regulations) is quite cohesive. There is a lot more ideological variation in libertarian leaning voters, which makes it hard to really craft a platform and party that maximizes voter turn out. Some of us are adamant about environmental protection, others not at all. Some find the idea of letting the market handle healthcare perfectly fine, while others think it will be a complete disaster. Some have no problem with high taxes...as long as it's your state and not the fed. These differences are major ideological ones, not minor disagreements about details that people are willing to compromise on. I think that makes it harder to groom a candidate that more people could get behind. The potential voters are just all over the map.

That was actually a typo (that I have fixed now), so I guess we don't agree.  I meant to say that libertarians that refuse to identify with the Libertarian party often have relatively small ideological differences compared to those that are papered over within the Democrat and Republican party.  For example, there is no reason that pro-labor groups and pro-environmental regulation groups should be in the same political party.  They often are in conflict, as pro-environmental regulation groups often kill off projects that would be good for labor groups, particularly unions.  But it's a political coalition and they more or less make it work, even if that requires one faction or the other to swallow some bitter pills at times.  Similarly, the democrat coalition manages to contain both the bulk of jewish people in the U.S. and the bulk of anti-Semites.  For republicans, there's no fundamental reason that religious evangelical Christians should be in the same party as low taxes proponents (I mean there is a potential overlapping interest to the extent they both deem institutions of civil society, whether church or community, as having a primary role over gov't in ordering society, but that's somewhat tenuous) or that evangelical Christians conservatives should be in the same party as strong defense proponents.   But they more or less manage to keep a coalition (or at least did until this most recent presidential election). 

But when it comes to libertarians, you have actual libertarian ideologues who will forsake the party because say, the party's official platform is for provide for school choice, rather than to completely do away with public schools and completely 'voucherize' primary and secondary education.  Or they forsake the libertarian party completely because they are not as non-interventionist as they like, even though it's still way, way more non-interventionist than the major parties.  I'm making these examples up, but they're representative of the types of arguments that small l-libertarians will make against the Libertarian party.  They are quick to resort to "no true scotsman" type arguments, and I think for many of them, this is a result of the same personality traits that makes libertarianism attractive to them to begin with.   

dignam

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2016, 03:53:47 PM »
Count me in, have been for a while.

I don't subscribe to the "eliminate all government entities except military" line of thinking so much, but there is definitely fat to be trimmed. 

Both D/R parties are so corrupt and divisive it's sad.

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #40 on: August 31, 2016, 04:12:44 PM »
I have voted republican since the 80's. (caveat later)
The event that galvanized me:
We were buying a house in the 80's and a 30 year mortgage was
16-3/4%. My wife and I had been married 3 years and had been
good MMM'ers, we had about $25K saved and in those high interest days it was
earning about $2.5k a year.
 Our income was low, in the $18k range.
 The state I was in had a subsidized mortgage program with 9% mortgage rates.
I had applied, and was denied because my income was to high, yep, by about $2k.
 So if we had not tried to get ahead by living frugal and saving all we could, the government would help. If I had bought a new car, drank beer and ate out several times a week, yee old government would be right there to help.

I ended up with a 13-3/4% mortgage with a 3 year balloon payment.
It's been 32 years, and I still say government programs can go F%$& themselves.
 As to voting republican, I'm probably more libertarian.
But I'll vote republican because, a libertarian vote is wasted, no chance to win.
 I want small government, I'm pro-choice but don't think it's a good choice.
Stop putting people in jail for drugs. I think we need borders, 30 years ago!
Married to a legal immigrant, and think they actually make a America better.
 I think if you don't have it together enough to get a photo ID, you don't have what it takes to make an informed vote. If you are on welfare, I don't think you should be able to vote yourself more welfare.
 And with that I'll go get my fire extinguisher.

 Edit to add the libertarian platform.
https://www.lp.org/platform

What you did with your income would have had no effect on your acceptance into the program. It was the income itself. Obviously the program was means tested to give those with low incomes an opportunity to purchase affordable housing. This is the big problem I have with so called libertarians, at the end of the day many of them just don't like seeing people other themselves getting handouts.

I've gone from full on socialist to socialist libertarian. Smoke what you want and do what you want, but I'm not for letting the "invisible hand" taking care of things like workers rights or the environment.

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2016, 05:23:47 PM »

I've gone from full on socialist to socialist libertarian. Smoke what you want and do what you want, but I'm not for letting the "invisible hand" taking care of things like workers rights or the environment.

Wouldn't that be more commonly described as 'democrat'?

human

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #42 on: August 31, 2016, 05:36:00 PM »
Not sure if that's a joke or not but it's usually much further left than a democrat.

Democrats are practically republicans in my point of view!

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #43 on: September 01, 2016, 06:19:04 AM »
Democrats are practically republicans in my point of view!

Yeah, they appear to be as far right as Republicans were 30 or so years ago.  It's crazy how right wing politics in the US has become.

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #44 on: September 01, 2016, 06:25:03 AM »
Democrats are practically republicans in my point of view!

Yeah, they appear to be as far right as Republicans were 30 or so years ago.  It's crazy how right wing politics in the US has become.
Indeed. =/
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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #45 on: September 01, 2016, 06:59:19 PM »
All the political classifications are effed up these days.  Libertarians were the original classical liberals.

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #46 on: September 01, 2016, 07:03:00 PM »
All the political classifications are effed up these days.  Libertarians were the original classical liberals.

And conservatives too, since being liberal is being conservative in a place where we started from liberalism.

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #47 on: September 01, 2016, 07:21:10 PM »
In my mind there is a difference between the Libertarian political party and having libertarian leaning political ideals. Personally I lean more libertarian than either political party, but at the same time I realize that a pure Libertarian philosophy is not compatible with a functioning government.

The problem with the Libertarian philosophy is if you take it to the logical conclusion, there is no government. There is anarchy.

Plus it is really easy to be libertarian when you are rich, white and male which makes me wonder if the reason I am drawn to it is muddled by my privilege. Just writing this makes me think I need a therapist ;)

A year or two ago, I'd have said a definite yes.

But now, I'm less and less Libertarian as the years go on (mostly due to the hardcore nuts online who put forth too extreme of a view with no room for compromise), but I still identify as mostly libertarian and there's no other party I could identify with.

I'd guess I'll eventually identify as non-partisan, but we'll see.
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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #48 on: September 01, 2016, 08:40:25 PM »
In my mind there is a difference between the Libertarian political party and having libertarian leaning political ideals. Personally I lean more libertarian than either political party, but at the same time I realize that a pure Libertarian philosophy is not compatible with a functioning government.

The problem with the Libertarian philosophy is if you take it to the logical conclusion, there is no government. There is anarchy.

Plus it is really easy to be libertarian when you are rich, white and male which makes me wonder if the reason I am drawn to it is muddled by my privilege. Just writing this makes me think I need a therapist ;)

A year or two ago, I'd have said a definite yes.

But now, I'm less and less Libertarian as the years go on (mostly due to the hardcore nuts online who put forth too extreme of a view with no room for compromise), but I still identify as mostly libertarian and there's no other party I could identify with.

I'd guess I'll eventually identify as non-partisan, but we'll see.
Definitely agree with all of that!  :)

Recognizing my privilege has absolutely moved me away from Libertarianism in some aspects towards more social programs/safety nets rather than a "bootstrap yourself" philosophy.
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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #49 on: September 01, 2016, 09:51:08 PM »
In my mind there is a difference between the Libertarian political party and having libertarian leaning political ideals. Personally I lean more libertarian than either political party, but at the same time I realize that a pure Libertarian philosophy is not compatible with a functioning government.

The problem with the Libertarian philosophy is if you take it to the logical conclusion, there is no government. There is anarchy.


No, not anarchy.  The philosophy is that the initiation of force is wrong.  Government is put in place (police, military, court systems) to deal with times when the initiation of force occurs.  The people grant the government a monopoly on the use of force -- and expect that at no time the government will initiate force.

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