Author Topic: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink  (Read 18721 times)

GuitarStv

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Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« on: February 20, 2023, 09:55:37 AM »
I am  disturbed by the PC censorship of Roald Dahl's works.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment/roald-dahl-censorship-allegations-1.6753828

The terrible terms "fat," "ugly", and "crazy" have been removed over the concerns of body positivity, and mistreatment of mental health issues.  References to "boys and girls" have been changed to "children" since not all children are boys or girls any more.  The colour of the terrible tractors in The Fabulous Mr. Fox can no longer be mentioned . . . as the censors appear to be unable to differentiate between a large black machine and a brown human being.

Politically correct views change all the time.  What was politically correct 60 years ago is different from what was considered PC 30 years ago, which is different from what is considered PC today.  Regular censorship and alteration of history is not a path that we want to start down.  Is it hyperbolic to say that this feels a lot like the minitruth-style rewriting of history in 1984 where the past was constantly being rewritten to provide a more politically acceptable version?

wenchsenior

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2023, 10:16:16 AM »
I am  disturbed by the PC censorship of Roald Dahl's works.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment/roald-dahl-censorship-allegations-1.6753828

The terrible terms "fat," "ugly", and "crazy" have been removed over the concerns of body positivity, and mistreatment of mental health issues.  References to "boys and girls" have been changed to "children" since not all children are boys or girls any more.  The colour of the terrible tractors in The Fabulous Mr. Fox can no longer be mentioned . . . as the censors appear to be unable to differentiate between a large black machine and a brown human being.

Politically correct views change all the time.  What was politically correct 60 years ago is different from what was considered PC 30 years ago, which is different from what is considered PC today.  Regular censorship and alteration of history is not a path that we want to start down.  Is it hyperbolic to say that this feels a lot like the minitruth-style rewriting of history in 1984 where the past was constantly being rewritten to provide a more politically acceptable version?

Ugh, that's fucked up.

scantee

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2023, 10:38:35 AM »
This seems much more driven by profit motive than a desire to be PC, which I doubt megacorp Netflix (the apparent owner of the rights to his stories) cares even the tiniest bit about. I still don’t think they should do it, just let his stories fade in popularity as most artistic works do.

GuitarStv

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2023, 10:43:21 AM »
This seems much more driven by profit motive than a desire to be PC, which I doubt megacorp Netflix (the apparent owner of the rights to his stories) cares even the tiniest bit about. I still don’t think they should do it, just let his stories fade in popularity as most artistic works do.

If they don't think there's a large/profitable demand for the PC censored works, I don't think they would put them out.

scantee

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2023, 10:51:36 AM »
This seems much more driven by profit motive than a desire to be PC, which I doubt megacorp Netflix (the apparent owner of the rights to his stories) cares even the tiniest bit about. I still don’t think they should do it, just let his stories fade in popularity as most artistic works do.

If they don't think there's a large/profitable demand for the PC censored works, I don't think they would put them out.

Yes, that’s my point. They clearly DO believe there is more profit to be made from these changes otherwise they wouldn’t be making them. I’m sure they did tons of testing and focus groups and heard from parents, “I like Dahl’s stories but there is so much in there that’s cringey.” Hence the changes. They could care less about being PC, they only care about making money and they’ve decided this is how they’ll make the most of it.

Like I said, I don’t agree. If people don’t want to consume Dahl’s brand of entertainment anymore, just let it fade away naturally and unedited. But I’m not a VP at Netflix, so.

former player

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2023, 11:10:01 AM »
Are you sure children should be reading Dahl at all?  There is a convincing case for his anti-semitism in real life and for racism and misogyny in his books.

Plenty of other things for children to read.

PeteD01

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2023, 11:19:28 AM »
Roald Dahl was a rabid antisemite and a lot of his writing is absolutely disgusting.
The decision of Nertflix to buy the catalog is the real scandal.
There is no amount of editing that could remove the stench from his work.
Hopefully Netflix will choke on this attempt to sanitize this author´s work.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2023, 12:06:59 PM by PeteD01 »

PeteD01

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2023, 11:20:51 AM »
Are you sure children should be reading Dahl at all?  There is a convincing case for his anti-semitism in real life and for racism and misogyny in his books.

Plenty of other things for children to read.

Right.

And the title of this thread is inappropriate. There is no way that sanitizing this author´s work could be described as "encouraging goodthink".
« Last Edit: February 20, 2023, 11:27:22 AM by PeteD01 »

lentil

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2023, 11:21:00 AM »
Censorship is state-ordered. The decision to re-write Dahl's texts was made by the publisher, apparently with the consent of his estate, not by any government body or other power-wielding entity. It's a decision that I assume is motivated by a desire to make more money with the new versions, since sales of Dahl's books are presumably declining as they age (as most books do, though I'd argue that Dahl's age worse than most, and not just because of his language choices). Maybe they are right that there's a market, maybe they are wrong, but private financial consequences ("we think this version will sell more copies") is very different from state-ordered consequences ("we have to publish this version or we could be prosecuted").

Actual censorship is occurring in Florida right now, where educators and students are being banned from talking about certain subjects, where entire curricula are being dropped under state pressure, where books are being banned in schools and libraries, and where teachers who make statements of protest are being fired. This is a genuine effort to rewrite history: it forces educators to teach a rewritten version of historical events, and to disallow discussion of forbidden concepts, under threat of losing their jobs (including for following state-mandated educational policies while simply signalling disagreement). This is actual authoritarian censorship, which is being emulated by other right-wing state governments as we speak.

One of these things is a crisis, and it really isn't Dahl's bowdlerized books. What Dahl's publishers are doing is certainly open to critique, but it is not censorship. The nebulous "PC police" are not a body with actual authority to censor, fire, imprison, or otherwise punish people who write 'unacceptable' books. Companies make decisions all the time about what they think their customers want. Some of those decisions are dumb, or poorly-executed, but that doesn't mean we have a crisis of democratic principles.  And yes, I think the changes to Dahl's work are badly done, and disagree with the decision to make them, but I also profoundly fail to understand getting more riled up about it than actual authoritarianism, or trying to lump both things together under some kind of "culture wars" banner.

TL;DR: Critical public discourse is absolutely not equivalent to state-ordered censorship. And being unable to tell the difference is dangerous, perhaps particularly in a historical moment like the current one.

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2023, 11:27:51 AM »
I'm glad we bought a box set about 10 years ago that still have the original text. His books are bit weird but still very enjoyable. Our older kids have read most of his books and enjoyed them.


Here's a link to an article from the Telegraph that would normally be behind a paywall. It lists all the changes line by line. In some books it's a few and in other books it's changing or removing dozens of passages.

https://archive.is/84hiN

PeteD01

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2023, 11:45:24 AM »
Here are some quotes from Roald Dahl (and yes, his work is shot through with antisemitism, misogyny and racism):


Roald Dahl’s family just apologized for his Jew hatred. What were the 5 worst things he said?


1)“There is a trait in the Jewish character that does provoke animosity, maybe it’s a kind of lack of generosity towards non-Jews. I mean, there’s always a reason why anti-anything crops up anywhere; even a stinker like Hitler didn’t just pick on them for no reason. I mean, if you and I were in a line moving towards what we knew were gas chambers, I’d rather have a go at taking one of the guards with me; but they [the Jews] were always submissive.”

2) “I am certainly anti-Israel, and I have become anti-Semitic.”

3) In book review written by Dahl in the periodical “Literary Review,” he referred to “those powerful American Jewish bankers” and accused the United States Government of being “utterly dominated by the great Jewish financial institutions over there.”

4) The Israeli military activity in Lebanon, he said, “was very much hushed up in the newspapers because they are primarily Jewish-owned … there aren’t any non-Jewish publishers anywhere.”

5) When further discussing the Lebanon War, he wrote: “makes one wonder in the end what sort of people these Israelis are. It is like the good old Hitler and Himmler times all over again.”




https://forward.com/fast-forward/349771/roald-dahls-family-has-apologized-for-his-jew-hatred-what-were-the-5-worst/

Metalcat

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2023, 11:55:02 AM »
Yeaaaahhh... GuitarStv, I'm not quite with you on this one.

No one is censoring anything. Netflix may be trying to pander by trying to seem "woke" and choosing a heinously offensive writer to do it with, which is kind of insane and in terrible taste.

This is more like shitty woke-washing than political correctness going too far.

GuitarStv

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2023, 12:44:24 PM »
Here are some quotes from Roald Dahl (and yes, his work is shot through with antisemitism, misogyny and racism):


Roald Dahl’s family just apologized for his Jew hatred. What were the 5 worst things he said?


1)“There is a trait in the Jewish character that does provoke animosity, maybe it’s a kind of lack of generosity towards non-Jews. I mean, there’s always a reason why anti-anything crops up anywhere; even a stinker like Hitler didn’t just pick on them for no reason. I mean, if you and I were in a line moving towards what we knew were gas chambers, I’d rather have a go at taking one of the guards with me; but they [the Jews] were always submissive.”

2) “I am certainly anti-Israel, and I have become anti-Semitic.”

3) In book review written by Dahl in the periodical “Literary Review,” he referred to “those powerful American Jewish bankers” and accused the United States Government of being “utterly dominated by the great Jewish financial institutions over there.”

4) The Israeli military activity in Lebanon, he said, “was very much hushed up in the newspapers because they are primarily Jewish-owned … there aren’t any non-Jewish publishers anywhere.”

5) When further discussing the Lebanon War, he wrote: “makes one wonder in the end what sort of people these Israelis are. It is like the good old Hitler and Himmler times all over again.”




https://forward.com/fast-forward/349771/roald-dahls-family-has-apologized-for-his-jew-hatred-what-were-the-5-worst/

Yep, Dahl was a pretty vocal antisemite and he said plenty of horrible things along those lines.  Important to point out that this antisemitism was not really present in his children's books though, and is not really what we're talking about here.



Yeaaaahhh... GuitarStv, I'm not quite with you on this one.

No one is censoring anything. Netflix may be trying to pander by trying to seem "woke" and choosing a heinously offensive writer to do it with, which is kind of insane and in terrible taste.

This is more like shitty woke-washing than political correctness going too far.

Oxford defines political correctness as:

Quote
Conformity to prevailing liberal or radical opinion, in particular by carefully avoiding forms of expression or action that are perceived to exclude, marginalize, or insult groups of people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against.

Seems to pretty much fit with my understanding of the modern usage of the term 'woke' and apply here.  Am I wrong on this . . . are woke and political correctness not basically synonyms?


The changes made to Dahl's books are very clear-cut censorship any way that I can look at it.  They weren't edited to make things more clear or to correct mistakes - just to alter language that someone decided was likely to be politically problematic.

Metalcat

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2023, 12:54:06 PM »
Dude, I walk away from any argument where someone quotes the fucking dictionary at me.

Peace, enjoy your outrage.

ATtiny85

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2023, 01:13:00 PM »
Pretty sad to alter those great stories. I haven’t read one in four decades, but still occasionally have scenes from Danny, the Champ.., the Twits, and Charlie and the Choco… come to mind. Wonderful books. Awesome stories. Lasting memories.

I am sure there were other good books and pieces of books that were yanked off the shelves prior to me getting into school that I never knew about, so hopefully there are enough left to provide some good foundations for kids. I will keep that hope alive…

The hand wringing responses so far, well, no comment. Most of them I don’t see given the ignore user setting.

PeteD01

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2023, 01:39:37 PM »
...
Important to point out that this antisemitism was not really present in his children's books though
...


Wrong.

As an example, "The Witches" is full of antisemitic tropes and gets a lot of its inspiration from "The Elders of Zion".

Kris

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2023, 01:51:48 PM »
“This is going to be invoked as ‘woke censorship’ for years to come despite no one asking for it and the publisher receiving widespread criticism from the left.”

https://www.themarysue.com/what-the-hell-is-going-on-with-these-roald-dahl-book-changes/

GuitarStv

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2023, 01:57:32 PM »
...
Important to point out that this antisemitism was not really present in his children's books though
...


Wrong.

As an example, "The Witches" is full of antisemitic tropes and gets a lot of its inspiration from "The Elders of Zion".

I'm not terribly familiar with this book, so will have to take your word on that.  Did the changes made address the passages that are problematic?

PeteD01

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2023, 02:01:32 PM »
“This is going to be invoked as ‘woke censorship’ for years to come despite no one asking for it and the publisher receiving widespread criticism from the left.”

https://www.themarysue.com/what-the-hell-is-going-on-with-these-roald-dahl-book-changes/

The excitement about these minor edits is misplaced as no amount of editing could fix what´s wrong with this author´s work.

PeteD01

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2023, 02:14:24 PM »
...
Important to point out that this antisemitism was not really present in his children's books though
...


Wrong.

As an example, "The Witches" is full of antisemitic tropes and gets a lot of its inspiration from "The Elders of Zion".

I'm not terribly familiar with this book, so will have to take your word on that.  Did the changes made address the passages that are problematic?

I read somewhere that at least one of the edits tries to address the wig-wearing of the witches. They included a sentence or two about that there are other reasons for wearing a wig than being a witch, or something to that effect. Of course, I would have to be very charitably inclined to interpret this edit as an attempt to blunt the dog-whistling here - but I am not charitably inclined, so there is that.
But this is a bit of a distraction as the plot itself is the even bigger problem and no amount of editing can change that

All in all, Dahl´s work, in good part, is a cautionary tale about the insidiousness of antisemitic thought when skillfully deployed against the unsuspecting, in this case children.

The descriptions of the witches are hewing to well worn Nazi propaganda and here is an article delving into that a bit more:


Is Roald Dahl’s ‘The Witches’ Antisemitic?

Roald Dahl was definitely an antisemite, and 'The Witches' is full of antisemitic tropes.
By Emily Burack
October 21, 2020


Okay, what about noses?
Well, let’s be clear, there’s no such thing as a “Jewish nose.” Jews come in all shapes and sizes and have many different kinds of noses. However, a “large, hooked nose” has become synonymous with antisemitic stereotypes of Jews.

“Caricatures of Jews with grotesque features, and specifically with large noses, was ubiquitous in antisemitic propaganda deployed by Nazi Germany,” Community Security Trust Director of Policy Dr. Dave Rich told Media Diversity. “It is a technique used to stir up a sense of disgust and repulsion towards Jews, either collectively or individually, and is often found alongside other antisemitic motifs involving money, power, conspiracy and blood.”

And guess what? The Witches has all four of those other antisemitic motifs.



https://www.heyalma.com/is-roald-dahls-the-witches-antisemitic/
« Last Edit: February 20, 2023, 02:24:19 PM by PeteD01 »

GuitarStv

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2023, 02:44:40 PM »
So, the witches in the book are Jews because:
- They have long noses
- They are all bald (and hide their baldness by wearing wigs)
- They are rich
- They have magic powers
- They meet up with other witches
- They plot to turn children into mice

That interpretation seems to require some rather creative reading between the lines!


By this interpretation, the Wizard of Oz is rabidly antisemitic too.  You've got an evil witch:
- with a long nose (makes her Jewish)
- who is rich (lives in a castle - makes her Jewish)
- who has magic powers (makes her Jewish)
- always covers her head (makes her Jewish)
- is a puppet master (controlling flying monkeys - makes her Jewish)
- part of a secret organization of witches (makes her Jewish)
- plots to kill child (blood sacrifice - makes her Jewish)

It's just goofy.  Unless your argument is that any depiction of a witch is antisemitic?
« Last Edit: February 20, 2023, 02:55:13 PM by GuitarStv »

PeteD01

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2023, 03:19:29 PM »
So, the witches in the book are Jews because:
- They have long noses
- They are all bald (and hide their baldness by wearing wigs)
- They are rich
- They have magic powers
- They meet up with other witches
- They plot to turn children into mice

That interpretation seems to require some rather creative reading between the lines!

- Long noses - that´s a classic right out of Der Sturmer

- Baldness - the witches were women. Recognizably Jewish women (some orthodox flavors), depending on their observance, wear, or used to wear, wigs to keep their head covered and that is much easier when one wears one´s hair shaved or closely cropped.
 
- Wealth - everybody knows that Jews are rich, right? So what´s so offensive about pointing  that out? /s

- Magic powers - Jews can make the harvest fail and the wells run dry. Everybody knows that, right? /s

- Secret meetings - what´s new about that. Everybody knows that the Jews run things, so secret meetings is just business as usual, right? /s

- Turning children into mice - of course not, the Jews drink their blood. But we are looking at a children´s book, the precious ones need to be protected from the horrible truth. /s


There is hardly any antisemitic trope Dahl does not use to elaborate on the witch conspiracy. And that is no accident as any conspiracy theory in the West has antisemitism at its core.
Creativity is not required to decode this garbage; all you need is knowing where tha author is coming from and some insight into how cultural antisemitism works and is propagated.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2023, 04:04:00 PM by PeteD01 »

dividendman

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2023, 03:26:59 PM »
I think we're going to run into big problems if we censor, change, and re-write everything due to the personality traits or behaviors of the authors/creators, especially when judging by todays "standards".

I don't understand why people can't compartmentalize things. Bad people can do good things. Good people can do bad things. We shouldn't throw out the one because of the other.

I like Michael Jackson's music. He was probably a pedophile. Should I change the radio station every time a song of his comes on? Snoop Dogg killed a guy, I still listen to his stuff. Pretty much everything written before 1900 was done so by people who were disgusting by todays standards (slave owners, misogynists, etc.) should we just burn all texts before then?

I think this is the typical way liberals operate (even if in this case liberal groups didn't ask for it). Take a good idea: making things generally inclusive and respecting people, and taking it to the extreme (we must make everyone feel comfortable always!).

e.g. Cops should be held to high standards and punished when wrong - good. Let's eliminate most policing - bad.

NB: This is why republicans are going to win the next election - whether it's a fair characterization of liberal/progressive/democratic policies or not, and that's going to be rough when we're dealing with Trump round two.

PeteD01

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2023, 03:39:18 PM »
I think we're going to run into big problems if we censor, change, and re-write everything due to the personality traits or behaviors of the authors/creators, especially when judging by todays "standards".
...

That´s why it is wrong to edit Dahl´s work as they did.
Let it collapse under its own weight.
It´s just not right to try to make it palatable for the contemporary audience only for it to limp on for a few more years.


I don't understand why people can't compartmentalize things. Bad people can do good things. Good people can do bad things. We shouldn't throw out the one because of the other.

Unfortunately, this does not apply to Roald Dahl, his work is in good part inseparable from his nasty attitudes.



I think this is the typical way liberals operate (even if in this case liberal groups didn't ask for it). Take a good idea: making things generally inclusive and respecting people, and taking it to the extreme (we must make everyone feel comfortable always!).


Roald Dahl is actually an extreme example absolutely deserving of any criticism coming his way and the way of those who want to profit from his work today.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2023, 05:34:27 PM by PeteD01 »

GuitarStv

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2023, 04:27:33 PM »
So, the witches in the book are Jews because:
- They have long noses
- They are all bald (and hide their baldness by wearing wigs)
- They are rich
- They have magic powers
- They meet up with other witches
- They plot to turn children into mice

That interpretation seems to require some rather creative reading between the lines!

- Long noses - that´s a classic right out of Der Sturmer

- Baldness - the witches were women. Recognizably Jewish women (some orthodox flavors), depending on their observance, wear, or used to wear, wigs to keep their head covered and that is much easier when one wears one´s hair shaved or closely cropped.
 
- Wealth - everybody knows that Jews are rich, right? So what´s so offensive about pointing  that out? /s

- Magic powers - Jews can make the harvest fail and the wells run dry. Everybody knows that, right? /s

- Secret meetings - what´s new about that. Everybody knows that the Jews run things, so secret meetings is just business as usual, right? /s

- Turning children into mice - of course not, the Jews drink their blood. But we are looking at a children´s book, the precious ones need to be protected from the horrible truth. /s


There is hardly any antisemitic trope Dahl does not use to elaborate on the witch conspiracy. And that is no accident as any conspiracy theory in the West has antisemitism at its core.
Creativity is not required to decode this garbage; all you need is knowing where tha author is coming from and some insight into how cultural antisemitism works and is propagated.


I feel like this post really illustrates my point.

Wizard of Oz witch:
- has a long nose - that´s a classic right out of Der Sturmer
- who is rich (lives in a castle) - everybody knows that Jews are rich, right? So what´s so offensive about pointing  that out? /s
- who has magic powers - Jews can make the harvest fail and the wells run dry. Everybody knows that, right?
- always covers her head - the witch is a women. Recognizably Jewish women (some orthodox flavors), depending on their observance keep their head covered (typically with headscarves in the form of the tichel and snood, though some wear hats, berets or sheitel).
- is a puppet master (controlling flying monkeys) - Some people believe this about Jews, playing into antisemitic tropes of Jews being “puppet masters” of the world.
- part of a secretive organization of witches - what´s new about that. Everybody knows that the Jews run things, so secret meetings is just business as usual, right? /s
- plots to kill child - Guess what this calls to mind? The blood libel, a centuries-old antisemitic allegation that Jews murder Christian children to use their blood for ritual purposes.

Using exactly the same logic that you presented, the Wizard of Oz must be a depiction of a Jewish woman.
 This is why I was asking if you were arguing that any depiction of a witch is antisemitic.

PeteD01

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2023, 04:29:23 PM »

It's just goofy.  Unless your argument is that any depiction of a witch is antisemitic?

That is actually getting closer to my perspective.
The faces of the victims of persecution seem to blend into these archetypes of despicableness  in the mind of the persecutor.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2023, 04:34:48 PM by PeteD01 »

deborah

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2023, 04:36:06 PM »
This makes me recall all the problems people had with Enid Blyton, particularly Noddy and Big Ears, who lived together (shock, horror).

Metalcat

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2023, 04:39:18 PM »
I think we're going to run into big problems if we censor, change, and re-write everything due to the personality traits or behaviors of the authors/creators, especially when judging by todays "standards".

I don't understand why people can't compartmentalize things. Bad people can do good things. Good people can do bad things. We shouldn't throw out the one because of the other.

I like Michael Jackson's music. He was probably a pedophile. Should I change the radio station every time a song of his comes on? Snoop Dogg killed a guy, I still listen to his stuff. Pretty much everything written before 1900 was done so by people who were disgusting by todays standards (slave owners, misogynists, etc.) should we just burn all texts before then?

I think this is the typical way liberals operate (even if in this case liberal groups didn't ask for it). Take a good idea: making things generally inclusive and respecting people, and taking it to the extreme (we must make everyone feel comfortable always!).

e.g. Cops should be held to high standards and punished when wrong - good. Let's eliminate most policing - bad.

NB: This is why republicans are going to win the next election - whether it's a fair characterization of liberal/progressive/democratic policies or not, and that's going to be rough when we're dealing with Trump round two.

There's actually a valid argument to be made for not separating the art from the artist.

If people don't shun art from horrible, predatory people, then there is an economic incentive for the systems that protect these predators and to keep on protecting them as they always have.

If we collectively refused to consume entertainment product from people who turn out to be reprehensible, then the industries that cultivate these dynamics might be much more self policing for the sake of their profit margins.

You may think it's no big deal to listen to music from a monster because it's your jam, but a huge population of people are gonna give you side eye if you crank R Kelly or Chris Brown.

As long as we make it clear as a society that we will still purchase art we like even if it's made by predators, then profitable predators will always be protected.

Will we as consumers ever behave that way? Probably never. We collectively spend on shit we want pretty much no matter what the consequences. If we don't care about wearing clothing on our bodies made in literal sweat shops, we're not about to change the station just because an artist did something bad. At least we won't en masse because people don't really care.

But I sure as shit don't have Remix to Ignition on my playlist anymore. Not sure if that will get Trump elected though...

iris lily

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2023, 04:57:57 PM »
Changing Roald Dahl’s words seems silly and unnecessary to me. If the marketplace wants to treat his books as outdated, so be it.

One thing about his children’s lit works is that they were interestingly dark. There are many children’s’ books that were sanitized and Disneyfied, and I’m I think his have stood the test of time because they are NOT complete pablum.

Netflix could’ve taken his works and made films on them without continuing the tropes that are getting people all riled up. So I guess Netflix is pushing this rewrite of the printed products? Hmmm, that’s interesting.

But in the end, let the marketplace decide. Kids can move on to other  interesting fantasy works from authors who are not problematic. Like the great Harry Potter series for instance, what a boon to the great canon of English fantasy for children that has been!

:) :) :)
« Last Edit: February 20, 2023, 06:16:15 PM by iris lily »

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2023, 06:01:22 PM »
So, the witches in the book are Jews because:
- They have long noses
- They are all bald (and hide their baldness by wearing wigs)
- They are rich
- They have magic powers
- They meet up with other witches
- They plot to turn children into mice

That interpretation seems to require some rather creative reading between the lines!

- Long noses - that´s a classic right out of Der Sturmer

- Baldness - the witches were women. Recognizably Jewish women (some orthodox flavors), depending on their observance, wear, or used to wear, wigs to keep their head covered and that is much easier when one wears one´s hair shaved or closely cropped.
 
- Wealth - everybody knows that Jews are rich, right? So what´s so offensive about pointing  that out? /s

- Magic powers - Jews can make the harvest fail and the wells run dry. Everybody knows that, right? /s

- Secret meetings - what´s new about that. Everybody knows that the Jews run things, so secret meetings is just business as usual, right? /s

- Turning children into mice - of course not, the Jews drink their blood. But we are looking at a children´s book, the precious ones need to be protected from the horrible truth. /s


There is hardly any antisemitic trope Dahl does not use to elaborate on the witch conspiracy. And that is no accident as any conspiracy theory in the West has antisemitism at its core.
Creativity is not required to decode this garbage; all you need is knowing where tha author is coming from and some insight into how cultural antisemitism works and is propagated.


I feel like this post really illustrates my point.

Wizard of Oz witch:
- has a long nose - that´s a classic right out of Der Sturmer
- who is rich (lives in a castle) - everybody knows that Jews are rich, right? So what´s so offensive about pointing  that out? /s
- who has magic powers - Jews can make the harvest fail and the wells run dry. Everybody knows that, right?
- always covers her head - the witch is a women. Recognizably Jewish women (some orthodox flavors), depending on their observance keep their head covered (typically with headscarves in the form of the tichel and snood, though some wear hats, berets or sheitel).
- is a puppet master (controlling flying monkeys) - Some people believe this about Jews, playing into antisemitic tropes of Jews being “puppet masters” of the world.
- part of a secretive organization of witches - what´s new about that. Everybody knows that the Jews run things, so secret meetings is just business as usual, right? /s
- plots to kill child - Guess what this calls to mind? The blood libel, a centuries-old antisemitic allegation that Jews murder Christian children to use their blood for ritual purposes.

Using exactly the same logic that you presented, the Wizard of Oz must be a depiction of a Jewish woman.
 This is why I was asking if you were arguing that any depiction of a witch is antisemitic.

Hmm, given when and where the Oz books were written, and the history of antisemitism in the US (and Canada) back then, it is quite possible.  I mean, look at most illustrations of Glinda the good - blond and blue eyed and a nice little nose. 

I think you and I are missing the hints because they are not part of our world-view so we don't recognize them.

dividendman

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2023, 07:14:48 PM »
I think we're going to run into big problems if we censor, change, and re-write everything due to the personality traits or behaviors of the authors/creators, especially when judging by todays "standards".

I don't understand why people can't compartmentalize things. Bad people can do good things. Good people can do bad things. We shouldn't throw out the one because of the other.

I like Michael Jackson's music. He was probably a pedophile. Should I change the radio station every time a song of his comes on? Snoop Dogg killed a guy, I still listen to his stuff. Pretty much everything written before 1900 was done so by people who were disgusting by todays standards (slave owners, misogynists, etc.) should we just burn all texts before then?

I think this is the typical way liberals operate (even if in this case liberal groups didn't ask for it). Take a good idea: making things generally inclusive and respecting people, and taking it to the extreme (we must make everyone feel comfortable always!).

e.g. Cops should be held to high standards and punished when wrong - good. Let's eliminate most policing - bad.

NB: This is why republicans are going to win the next election - whether it's a fair characterization of liberal/progressive/democratic policies or not, and that's going to be rough when we're dealing with Trump round two.

There's actually a valid argument to be made for not separating the art from the artist.

If people don't shun art from horrible, predatory people, then there is an economic incentive for the systems that protect these predators and to keep on protecting them as they always have.

If we collectively refused to consume entertainment product from people who turn out to be reprehensible, then the industries that cultivate these dynamics might be much more self policing for the sake of their profit margins.

You may think it's no big deal to listen to music from a monster because it's your jam, but a huge population of people are gonna give you side eye if you crank R Kelly or Chris Brown.

As long as we make it clear as a society that we will still purchase art we like even if it's made by predators, then profitable predators will always be protected.

Will we as consumers ever behave that way? Probably never. We collectively spend on shit we want pretty much no matter what the consequences. If we don't care about wearing clothing on our bodies made in literal sweat shops, we're not about to change the station just because an artist did something bad. At least we won't en masse because people don't really care.

But I sure as shit don't have Remix to Ignition on my playlist anymore. Not sure if that will get Trump elected though...

I think we'd have very little to listen to, read, look at and watch if we eliminated all art due to moral failings of the creator (depending on where you draw the line... animal abuse? infidelity? drug use? racist views? assault? domestic battery/abuse? rape? murder?)

If you look up famous artists from the Beatles to Elvis etc. they all have arrests and many accusations if not convictions. If we go back further in time they may have been moral for the times (which I doubt) but the times were bad.

The creator of the national anthem owned slaves, that song gets played every day at schools.

As for monetary benefit, the time to boycott would have been before the artists died/were jailed. Michael Jackson isn't reaping any money now that he's dead, and Kelly's money, whatever is coming in, is likely going to his victims since he's in jail. So not listening to his songs now is probably making you feel better more than denying the artist more funds.

And then we have the authors of history of science and art who held the most racist and misogynist views you can think of but I'm not sure what is to be gained by not reading their books.

I think human beings are terrible with fame/money/power. When humans have power and don't have any guardrails, things go bad really fast. Since artists/sports people/politicians etc. tend to get famous and powerful, they disproportionately commit terrible crimes compared to the public at large. I guess we could boycott *all* music/art/sports/non-sciency things and maybe that'd work.

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2023, 07:51:09 PM »
There is plenty of literature for children which is "interestingly dark" without bothering with Dahl, starting perhaps with Grimm's Fairy Tales.  Dahl is not the only alternative to Disneyfication.

Children are being taught racism, anti-semitism and misogyny every day, and they grow up to be racists, anti-semites and misogynists.  If a small part of the hate children are taught can be reduced I'm all for it.

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2023, 07:54:12 PM »
I think we're going to run into big problems if we censor, change, and re-write everything due to the personality traits or behaviors of the authors/creators, especially when judging by todays "standards".

I don't understand why people can't compartmentalize things. Bad people can do good things. Good people can do bad things. We shouldn't throw out the one because of the other.

I like Michael Jackson's music. He was probably a pedophile. Should I change the radio station every time a song of his comes on? Snoop Dogg killed a guy, I still listen to his stuff. Pretty much everything written before 1900 was done so by people who were disgusting by todays standards (slave owners, misogynists, etc.) should we just burn all texts before then?

I think this is the typical way liberals operate (even if in this case liberal groups didn't ask for it). Take a good idea: making things generally inclusive and respecting people, and taking it to the extreme (we must make everyone feel comfortable always!).

e.g. Cops should be held to high standards and punished when wrong - good. Let's eliminate most policing - bad.

NB: This is why republicans are going to win the next election - whether it's a fair characterization of liberal/progressive/democratic policies or not, and that's going to be rough when we're dealing with Trump round two.

There's actually a valid argument to be made for not separating the art from the artist.

If people don't shun art from horrible, predatory people, then there is an economic incentive for the systems that protect these predators and to keep on protecting them as they always have.

If we collectively refused to consume entertainment product from people who turn out to be reprehensible, then the industries that cultivate these dynamics might be much more self policing for the sake of their profit margins.

You may think it's no big deal to listen to music from a monster because it's your jam, but a huge population of people are gonna give you side eye if you crank R Kelly or Chris Brown.

As long as we make it clear as a society that we will still purchase art we like even if it's made by predators, then profitable predators will always be protected.

Will we as consumers ever behave that way? Probably never. We collectively spend on shit we want pretty much no matter what the consequences. If we don't care about wearing clothing on our bodies made in literal sweat shops, we're not about to change the station just because an artist did something bad. At least we won't en masse because people don't really care.

But I sure as shit don't have Remix to Ignition on my playlist anymore. Not sure if that will get Trump elected though...

I think we'd have very little to listen to, read, look at and watch if we eliminated all art due to moral failings of the creator (depending on where you draw the line... animal abuse? infidelity? drug use? racist views? assault? domestic battery/abuse? rape? murder?)

If you look up famous artists from the Beatles to Elvis etc. they all have arrests and many accusations if not convictions. If we go back further in time they may have been moral for the times (which I doubt) but the times were bad.

The creator of the national anthem owned slaves, that song gets played every day at schools.

As for monetary benefit, the time to boycott would have been before the artists died/were jailed. Michael Jackson isn't reaping any money now that he's dead, and Kelly's money, whatever is coming in, is likely going to his victims since he's in jail. So not listening to his songs now is probably making you feel better more than denying the artist more funds.

And then we have the authors of history of science and art who held the most racist and misogynist views you can think of but I'm not sure what is to be gained by not reading their books.

I think human beings are terrible with fame/money/power. When humans have power and don't have any guardrails, things go bad really fast. Since artists/sports people/politicians etc. tend to get famous and powerful, they disproportionately commit terrible crimes compared to the public at large. I guess we could boycott *all* music/art/sports/non-sciency things and maybe that'd work.

Yeah, I already said it wasn't a realistic thing.

I was just posting that there does exist a legitimate argument for not just tacitly separating artists from their music.

My only point was that it's not a black and white issue of: well great art is great art and there's no reason to associate it at all with the conduct of the artist.

There is a reason, a valid reason.

There's no question that the predators who create lucrative art are systematically protected from consequences of their predatory behaviour. If there were an economic consequence, then the incentive to protect and enable them would be less.

But as I already said, that's unrealistic. That doesn't completely invalidate the argument though.

expatartist

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2023, 08:21:48 PM »

If people don't shun art from horrible, predatory people, then there is an economic incentive for the systems that protect these predators and to keep on protecting them as they always have.
...

As long as we make it clear as a society that we will still purchase art we like even if it's made by predators, then profitable predators will always be protected.


Very good points, thanks. It really comes down to the profit motive. Think about how many predators lost projects during MeToo - at least for a while.

Re the Dahl situation, it's pretty clear this is a profit motive by his estate, which he *authorized* to make change to his works if necessary. He had done so already in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory - "In the late 1960s, under mounting pressure to rewrite the Oompa-Loompas, Dahl agreed, in his words, to 'de-Negro' his characters" which had originally been enslaved people 'imported' to a European factory...later "Dahl eventually buckled to public criticism. In a revised 1973 edition of the book, he reimagined the Oompa-Loompas as 'little fantasy creatures'." https://theconversation.com/from-pygmies-to-puppets-what-to-do-with-roald-dahls-enslaved-oompa-loompas-in-modern-adaptations-166967

GuitarStv

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2023, 07:23:27 AM »
There is plenty of literature for children which is "interestingly dark" without bothering with Dahl, starting perhaps with Grimm's Fairy Tales.  Dahl is not the only alternative to Disneyfication.

I studied Grimm's Fairy Tales in highschool for an English paper.  If Dahl's work is unacceptable, then certainly Grimm's stuff is no good.  They're explicitly anti-semitic (as well as pretty non-chalant about child abuse and OK with incest).  Look up 'The Jew in the Brambles/The Jew Amoung Thorns', or 'The Good Bargain' and give 'em a read for the antisemitic stuff.  Nazis actually used Grimm Fairy Tales as part of their anti-Jewish propaganda in WWII.


Children are being taught racism, anti-semitism and misogyny every day, and they grow up to be racists, anti-semites and misogynists.  If a small part of the hate children are taught can be reduced I'm all for it.

Are Dahl's books really teaching antisemitism and hate though?  Because I read most of them as a kid, and didn't pick up on that message at all.  I've recently re-read many of them to my own son, and he has not mentioned or acted in any antisemitic way.  My mom read these books when she was in elementary school, and has never said an antisemitic word that I've heard my whole life.  I don't believe that there books are hateful.


There's actually a valid argument to be made for not separating the art from the artist.

If people don't shun art from horrible, predatory people, then there is an economic incentive for the systems that protect these predators and to keep on protecting them as they always have.

If we collectively refused to consume entertainment product from people who turn out to be reprehensible, then the industries that cultivate these dynamics might be much more self policing for the sake of their profit margins.

At first glance, I kind of agree with this.  I love Kevin Spacey's acting.  American Beauty is one of my favourite movies.  But I definitely didn't want to watch anything he was in and support him when it turned out he was a serial sex offender.  I loved reading Orson Scott Card's Enders Game as a child . . . and then he later came out as a super bigoted homophobe.  It makes me not want to read more of his stuff.  But I think that there also has to be a statute of limitations or something on it or some other way of dealing with things that have made enough cultural impact that they're not going away, or simply great works by terrible people.  I'd read Ender's Game to my kid.  There isn't even a hint of homophobia in the whole text, and it's a great work of art.

As mentioned just above, several of Grimm's Fairy Tales are very clearly antisemitic.  Which tells us that the Grimm brothers were antisemitic.  According to the 'Don't separate the art from the artist' concept it follows that all of Grimms Fairy Tales should therefore be shunned.  But to me it really seems like an overreaction to throw out Cinderella, Snow White, Hansel and Gretel, The Frog King, Rapunzel, Little Red Riding Hood, and Rumpelstiltskin because of antisemitism in The Jew in the Brambles.

Running from pillar to post trying to remove all the culturally important things that were created by problematic folks doesn't sit right with me.  As a parent, you're obviously not advocating antisemitism by reading your kid Cinderella.  I feel like the same can be said when you're reading your kid James and the Giant Peach.  In both cases the original antisemitic authors are dead so you're not supporting their problematic viewpoints.

I don't know where exactly the line should be drawn though.  After death of the artist maybe?  Maybe there is not easy/clear delineation.

GuitarStv

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2023, 07:35:29 AM »

It's just goofy.  Unless your argument is that any depiction of a witch is antisemitic?

That is actually getting closer to my perspective.
The faces of the victims of persecution seem to blend into these archetypes of despicableness  in the mind of the persecutor.


I think that I can see this argument.  The modern Halloween type witch - big nose, wears a hat, does magic, wants to do bad things to children . . . that fits with many anti-Jewish stereotypes, and I haven't been able to figure out exactly where that depiction came from.  Seems entirely plausible that much of it was cribbed from old anti-Jewish propaganda.  It ends up being kind of a chicken and egg thing.  Did the witch come from the antisemitic tropes, or did the tropes come from the attempt to associate Jewish people with something bad that already existed.

But if the concern is about depiction of witches in general, why does everyone gets upset about Dahl's work and nobody gets upset about the Wizard of Oz?  I feel like the outrage stems not from the depiction, but simply from a desire to make the author's works seem worse than they really are.

Metalcat

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2023, 07:48:43 AM »

It's just goofy.  Unless your argument is that any depiction of a witch is antisemitic?

That is actually getting closer to my perspective.
The faces of the victims of persecution seem to blend into these archetypes of despicableness  in the mind of the persecutor.


I think that I can see this argument.  The modern Halloween type witch - big nose, wears a hat, does magic, wants to do bad things to children . . . that fits with many anti-Jewish stereotypes, and I haven't been able to figure out exactly where that depiction came from.  Seems entirely plausible that much of it was cribbed from old anti-Jewish propaganda.  It ends up being kind of a chicken and egg thing.  Did the witch come from the antisemitic tropes, or did the tropes come from the attempt to associate Jewish people with something bad that already existed.

But if the concern is about depiction of witches in general, why does everyone gets upset about Dahl's work and nobody gets upset about the Wizard of Oz?  I feel like the outrage stems not from the depiction, but simply from a desire to make the author's works seem worse than they really are.

Because there's no objective organized group getting outraged.

In fact, most people who are bothered by Dahl's work are primarily bothered because he's a confirmed anti-Semite. But you don't see people en masse protesting his work.

You posted about his work being re-written. Some of us basically said "fucking Netflix, that's rich of them to take the work of a known anti-Semite and try to woke-wash as an obvious and annoying pandering move."

We're not outraged, we're not protesting, we just think it's hypocritical, ridiculous, and gross to pull this kind of fake woke bullshit stunt and try to pretend as if the source material isn't problematic for totally different reasons.

It's just icky and stupid and unnecessary and an obvious manipulation from Netflix who are like "hmm...how can we make more money on this problematic shit we bought while making it look like we're woke without having to actually be woke AT ALL!"

Should we be having open discourse about the depiction of witches and the anti-Semites who depicted them that way?

Yeah, we probably should, and we are in this thread and that's cool. But it's hard enough in this day and age to even bring up something being even remotely offensive without it turning into a political mud slinging battle.

dividendman

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2023, 08:56:25 AM »
I think MetalCat is right about this being Netflix pandering to make money.

I have a larger gripe though. Why don't people come up with new shit anymore? Are we so out of ideas that all we can do is re-write and remake old stuff? Or is it that this is just the cheapest way to get suckers to buy shit? Why do we even have to have this discussion about Dahl, why can't we come up with new children's stories?

Movies are re-runs and remakes and sequels and prequels. Batman 53, this time he gets the joker... again. Terminator 12... this time there are 3 terminators! Star Wars, etc.

Why not come up with a new universe of shit instead of "Lord of the Rings: The birth story of Galadriel" coming soon to Amazon Prime.

I feel like prequels are the dumbest, we know how it all turns out.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2023, 08:58:07 AM by dividendman »

Kris

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2023, 09:03:03 AM »
I think MetalCat is right about this being Netflix pandering to make money.

I have a larger gripe though. Why don't people come up with new shit anymore? Are we so out of ideas that all we can do is re-write and remake old stuff? Or is it that this is just the cheapest way to get suckers to buy shit? Why do we even have to have this discussion about Dahl, why can't we come up with new children's stories?

Movies are re-runs and remakes and sequels and prequels. Batman 53, this time he gets the joker... again. Terminator 12... this time there are 3 terminators! Star Wars, etc.

Why not come up with a new universe of shit instead of "Lord of the Rings: The birth story of Galadriel" coming soon to Amazon Prime.

I feel like prequels are the dumbest, we know how it all turns out.

People do. There’s amazing new and exciting stuff being created all the time.

Corporations, however? Well, they wanna make money. It’s easier to do that by replicating something that worked before. 

PeteD01

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2023, 09:17:51 AM »

It's just goofy.  Unless your argument is that any depiction of a witch is antisemitic?

That is actually getting closer to my perspective.
The faces of the victims of persecution seem to blend into these archetypes of despicableness  in the mind of the persecutor.


I think that I can see this argument.  The modern Halloween type witch - big nose, wears a hat, does magic, wants to do bad things to children . . . that fits with many anti-Jewish stereotypes, and I haven't been able to figure out exactly where that depiction came from.  Seems entirely plausible that much of it was cribbed from old anti-Jewish propaganda.  It ends up being kind of a chicken and egg thing.  Did the witch come from the antisemitic tropes, or did the tropes come from the attempt to associate Jewish people with something bad that already existed.

You need to analyze this from the perspective of the persecutors because that is where the issue originates.
The overlapping characteristics of the victims of the witch crazes and antisemitic violence do not overlap because there are actual a priori overlapping characteristics of the different groups of victims.
The apparent overlap of characteristics is due to these characteristics being projections of the persecutors onto the different groups of victims.
For example, witches and Jews were both accused of practicing black magic. Of course, the practice of black magic is not an overlapping characteristic of the victim groups but reflects only the concern/delusion of the persecutors projected on both groups.
And so it is with other overlapping characteristics.




But if the concern is about depiction of witches in general, why does everyone gets upset about Dahl's work and nobody gets upset about the Wizard of Oz?  I feel like the outrage stems not from the depiction, but simply from a desire to make the author's works seem worse than they really are.

While it is certainly in bad taste to use witches, who were typically older single women living at the margins of society when they became victims, as props for anything.
But there are differences between the Wizard of Oz and Dahl´s The Witches.
Basically, The Witches is a full blown conspiracy theory and Dahl only uses the witches as placeholders for Jews. And the man did this intentionally, without a doubt.
 
The Wizard of Oz is a different matter. Again, it is important to realize that any characteristic attributed to witches and shown in the movie is not a quality pertaining to actual witches, of which there weren´t any ever, but a projection of those persecuting those accused of witchcraft.
Maybe people can make fun of witches today because of the fact that there never was a witch to begin with. In a way, those who perished in the witch crazes were posthumously exonerated via the realization that the crime of witchcraft never existed in the first place.
It is kind of a disassociation of the concept "witch" and the actual victims, allowing people to have fun with the new, fully fictional idea of a witch. I find that disrespectful to the victims, however.
In other words, the link between mass murder and the idea of witches has been severed in the mind of many; and even the most disturbing fantasies about witches can become part of popular culture because there aren´t and there never will be any witches in harms way.

The issue with antisemitism is different. Jews were and are persecuted because they are Jews. Of course, modern antisemites do not accuse Jews of practicing black magic, but in contrast to witches who disappeared from the physical world with the end of the belief in black magic (in the West), Jews are still very much around and often in harms way.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2023, 09:23:29 AM by PeteD01 »

LibrarIan

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2023, 02:07:07 PM »
Dude, I walk away from any argument where someone quotes the fucking dictionary at me.

Peace, enjoy your outrage.

This particular comment struck me as hilarious. Basically I read, "I walk away from any argument where someone uses the primary resource for word usage when the meaning of a particular word is being debated." Guess we're not allowed to look things up during the course of a discussion.

Anyway, it's refreshing to see a sane take on these boards for once, GuitarStv. For a board full of people who are very intelligent about money, there is so much sociopolitical idiocy here.

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2023, 02:19:39 PM »
Dude, I walk away from any argument where someone quotes the fucking dictionary at me.

Peace, enjoy your outrage.

This particular comment struck me as hilarious. Basically I read, "I walk away from any argument where someone uses the primary resource for word usage when the meaning of a particular word is being debated." Guess we're not allowed to look things up during the course of a discussion.

Anyway, it's refreshing to see a sane take on these boards for once, GuitarStv. For a board full of people who are very intelligent about money, there is so much sociopolitical idiocy here.

I find having the dictionary quoted to me to be incredibly condescending. I have no problem with evidence, but quoting the dictionary seems to me like a dick move every time.

GuitarStv is a very intelligent and very well informed forum member who often cites really high value sources, but can be kind of a pain in the ass to argue with sometimes. When he throws the dictionary at me, I know it's not going to be one of our fun arguments, so best to walk away.

ETA: I was also in a foul, miserable fucking mood when I wrote that so was quite a bit more hostile than I typically am.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2023, 02:45:47 PM by Metalcat »

chevy1956

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #42 on: February 21, 2023, 02:36:39 PM »
I've read these posts and I don't know what to think. I read a lot and Dahl's books were a huge part of my childhood and I've never even considered that there was something wrong with those books.

I feel like the outrage stems not from the depiction, but simply from a desire to make the author's works seem worse than they really are.

This is my concern and it's a massive concern. I remember studying English years ago and people can read various things into so many different works. I won't see the same issues in Pride and Prejudice as other people. Following on from that unless it's really clear cut I'm not a fan of adjusting anything. Who gets to make this subjective judgement ?

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #43 on: February 21, 2023, 02:41:04 PM »
I've read these posts and I don't know what to think. I read a lot and Dahl's books were a huge part of my childhood and I've never even considered that there was something wrong with those books.

I feel like the outrage stems not from the depiction, but simply from a desire to make the author's works seem worse than they really are.

This is my concern and it's a massive concern. I remember studying English years ago and people can read various things into so many different works. I won't see the same issues in Pride and Prejudice as other people. Following on from that unless it's really clear cut I'm not a fan of adjusting anything. Who gets to make this subjective judgement?

Whoever is the most outraged.

GuitarStv

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #44 on: February 21, 2023, 02:44:34 PM »
Dude, I walk away from any argument where someone quotes the fucking dictionary at me.

Peace, enjoy your outrage.

This particular comment struck me as hilarious. Basically I read, "I walk away from any argument where someone uses the primary resource for word usage when the meaning of a particular word is being debated." Guess we're not allowed to look things up during the course of a discussion.

Anyway, it's refreshing to see a sane take on these boards for once, GuitarStv. For a board full of people who are very intelligent about money, there is so much sociopolitical idiocy here.

I find having the dictionary quoted to me to be incredibly condescending. I have no problem with evidence, but quoting the dictionary seems to me like a dick move every time.

GuitarStv is a very intelligent and very well informed forum member who often cites really high value sources, but can be kind of a pain in the ass to argue with sometimes. When he throws the dictionary at me, I know it's not going to be one of our fun arguments, so best to walk away.

FWIW (and fully acknowledging my own occasional dickishness) - The dictionary quote was part of an honest question.  'Woke' is a made up and relatively modern term.  I've always equated it in my mind to 'political correctness' but was wondering if there was some nuance that differentiated the two.

GuitarStv

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #45 on: February 21, 2023, 02:50:03 PM »
I've read these posts and I don't know what to think. I read a lot and Dahl's books were a huge part of my childhood and I've never even considered that there was something wrong with those books.

I feel like the outrage stems not from the depiction, but simply from a desire to make the author's works seem worse than they really are.

This is my concern and it's a massive concern. I remember studying English years ago and people can read various things into so many different works. I won't see the same issues in Pride and Prejudice as other people. Following on from that unless it's really clear cut I'm not a fan of adjusting anything. Who gets to make this subjective judgement?

Whoever is the most outraged.

In this case it appears to have been a corporate decision made by the company that owns the rights to the works.  It doesn't seem like the corporation is all that outraged - just making a (hopefully poor) business decision.

Metalcat

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #46 on: February 21, 2023, 02:58:01 PM »
I've read these posts and I don't know what to think. I read a lot and Dahl's books were a huge part of my childhood and I've never even considered that there was something wrong with those books.

I feel like the outrage stems not from the depiction, but simply from a desire to make the author's works seem worse than they really are.

This is my concern and it's a massive concern. I remember studying English years ago and people can read various things into so many different works. I won't see the same issues in Pride and Prejudice as other people. Following on from that unless it's really clear cut I'm not a fan of adjusting anything. Who gets to make this subjective judgement?

Whoever is the most outraged.

In this case it appears to have been a corporate decision made by the company that owns the rights to the works.  It doesn't seem like the corporation is all that outraged - just making a (hopefully poor) business decision.

Lol. Yeah Netflix is most definitely NOT the torch bearer of woke outrage. They made that very clear last year.

simonsez

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #47 on: February 21, 2023, 03:40:37 PM »
It's a tough act to balance.

I remember reading what must've been the first edition of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.  The Oompa Loompa origin story was memorably odd and had a weird feel that my ~10 year old self didn't know quite how to categorize.  But it was wacky and interesting enough elsewhere to just roll with what the author is feeding you.  I'm not sure changing the hair and skin color did much to solve that particular problem in movies and in later editions but I digress.

If Dahl's works were bought, the new owners can do whatever.  Art should stay in the form as intended by the original artist but that's just my opinion and I am not buying another's corpus. 

I grew up with Dahl.  Most generations of human children have not.  There are plenty of talented authors should Netflix overreach and dilute what they purchased to the point that it fades away (which easily could happen even if they changed nothing!).  Future generations will be just fine whether they know Dahl material or not.

Just recently I started watching Rick & Morty.  I've enjoyed it and am about halfway into S2.  I decided to google the show a little more to learn about the background and the production.  Lo and behold, S7 and beyond will not be made with the original guy who voiced the titular characters (also exec produced, wrote, created alongside Dan Harmon, etc.) due to some strong-sounding domestic abuse claims that have a court date in April of this year.  Like, damnit! Ignorance was bliss!  Now do I stop watching altogether because of an artist's personal life that to my knowledge doesn't bleed into the show (but who knows, it's a crazy show so anything could be an influence)?  Do I skip ahead and wait for S7 to come out?  Also, why can't the show just die?  They had a good run.  It's like Steve Carell not being the center of the show on S8 and S9 of the American version of The Office.  Like, you made your money but not having such a central character either on screen or behind the scenes is such a blow and it's dubious the show will be just as good.  There are rare exceptions to this when a new presence totally changes what you thought was possible (Patrick Stewart as Picard comes to mind but that's not quite the same example).  Plus, if the media company wants to trot out Rick & Morty to keep the cash cow going and it has enough eyeballs to be financially tenable, I mean, cool, good luck to you.

I view Netflix changing Dahl's work similarly.  Artists can be pretty ignorant in their personal lives and if it bleeds into the art (subjective opinion on whether it does or not) and that art has been bought by someone else with the ability to change it, good luck to them.

Still, I have to chuckle at the overall problem.  Life is pretty good if this shows up in your news.  I half expect there to be a codpiece "war" if someone alters Peter Brueghel the Elder's The Wedding Dance.

LibrarIan

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #48 on: February 21, 2023, 03:55:29 PM »

Still, I have to chuckle at the overall problem.  Life is pretty good if this shows up in your news.

Indeed. Life is so good that problems must be made up. Someone has it so good that they have enough time to devote to thinking about how Dahl's books might offend someone somewhere and take it upon themselves to change the works so as not to be offended in consideration of our current sensibilities.

chevy1956

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Re: Whitewashing Dahl's texts to encourage goodthink
« Reply #49 on: February 21, 2023, 05:26:57 PM »
I've read these posts and I don't know what to think. I read a lot and Dahl's books were a huge part of my childhood and I've never even considered that there was something wrong with those books.

I feel like the outrage stems not from the depiction, but simply from a desire to make the author's works seem worse than they really are.

This is my concern and it's a massive concern. I remember studying English years ago and people can read various things into so many different works. I won't see the same issues in Pride and Prejudice as other people. Following on from that unless it's really clear cut I'm not a fan of adjusting anything. Who gets to make this subjective judgement?

Whoever is the most outraged.

This is wrong but it points to an issue doesn't it.