Author Topic: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?  (Read 13637 times)

Nick_Miller

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #50 on: November 12, 2018, 09:18:45 AM »
Very well said, @FrugalToque.

People tend to start reacting before they even fully grasp a concept; it's like a football receiver who is looking ahead to see where he is going to run after catching the ball, and because he is so preoccupied, he drops the pass.

As a middle-aged straight white guy, I feel entitled to call out fellow middle-aged straight white guys.

You being white has helped you in America. Accept and understand that.
You being straight has helped you in America. Accept and understand that.
You being a male has helped you in America. Accept and understand that.

It doesn't negate your achievements. But you need to understand that you didn't have to fight the battles that women, POC, and non-straight folks have to fight. Every. single.day.

I have joked with my friends that I, as a middle-aged non-threatening white guy (especially when I wear a suit, but even when I'm not) can freaking get away with almost anything! No one watches me with suspicion in stores. Cops don't side eye me. Business reps and other professionals, like docs and bankers, treat me with respect. I'm not worried about getting mugged or catcalled. Other white guys give me that "nod of fellow white guy-dom. (You know the one).

ixtap

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #51 on: November 12, 2018, 11:06:37 AM »
So, we are going to fight racism by ignoring one of it's most common effects??

FrugalToque

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #52 on: November 12, 2018, 11:16:11 AM »
Quote
The 'endgame' of discussing and pointing out white privledge is not to take away from your own accomplishments, it's to increase empathy for those who work just as hard but aren't able to succeed because of their race.  Ideally, it will eventually change how folks think about race and the impacts of long standing, measurable, institutionalized racism . . . which will help to continue reducing the problem.

...

Let's do an analogy: Let's say I grew up in Cleveland, OH and I'm a Cleveland Indians fan (a small market team); over time, I see myself as someone cheering for the underdog, and I see my city as an underdog city, and that underdog perspective becomes part of my identity. Now someone like Frugal Toque comes along and says, You're not an Indians fan and you've never been an Indians fan.  You're a Yankees fan.   But don't worry, I'm a Yankees fan, too, all white people are Yankees fans, and you should only find this insulting if you actually are one of those Yankees fans. 

I wrote:
Quote
What is white privilege?
It means that being white in most European and North American countries confers benefits on you.

What part of that is telling you that you have to give up your identity?  What part of that is analogous to forcing you to change your favourite sports team?
If you're white, you have advantages.  Only when public policy acknowledges that can we move forward to equality.

The rest of your post seems to be tone-policing - that things would work out better if the anti-racist side of the equation were nicer and friendlier and not as demanding or in-your-face.  Politely asking for rights and freedoms, historically, has not generally produced results.

Toque.

TrudgingAlong

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #53 on: November 12, 2018, 11:20:50 AM »

I think one of the worst and most destructive things to happen in western politics over the last thirty years has been the success of right-wing politicians and pundits in erasing class as a legitimate basis for discussion. Women, LGBT+ citizens, ethnic minorities: all of these groups get a shitty deal, but they also get to criticise that shitty deal on a widely-accepted basis. Outside of a few incel assholes, we all accept that sexism is a Real Thing and that a wealthy white woman, for example, may have a legitimate complaint if she loses out on a job to a less qualified man. Likewise, for Usher Lookalike Genius, if he's pulled over and treated like shit by a cop, we don't discount his belief that it's rooted in racism.

Because of the poisoning of public discourse around the concept of class, though, dirt-poor white people no longer have a lens for critique that society as a whole is willing to accept. With relatively few exceptions, derogatory and dismissive language regarding poor white people is treated as pretty standard in a lot of contexts where sexist or racist language would rightly be condemned. And this has happened parallel with a hardening of class boundaries: social mobility is worse in most Western countries than it has been since the world wars. We've created a disenfranchised class of predominantly rural and industrial-city white poor people, and left them without a means to critique the system that did this to them.

For a woman, or a member of an ethnic minority, stuck in a shitty job and a shitty situation, there is a sizeable chunk of mainstream politics willing to discuss their concerns and examine whether structural or societal factors have held them back. For white people in shitty situations, the only politicians offering a critique that says "this isn't your fault" are, generally speaking, racists or #1 with racists. Our abandonment of class as a mechanism for critiquing power, along with the deindustrialization of the west, has left a sizeable chunk of the population in the shit with nobody except racists willing to publicly argue their specific corner.

A white kid born today in rural Appalachia is at a massive disadvantage. Same for a white kid born in a dying city like Bradford in northern England. Are they at the same disadvantage as women, or ethnic minorities, or people with disabilities? No. But they are at a disadvantage due to the class they've been born into, and if we refuse to acknowledge that we're leaving them to the racists.

This makes so much sense to me. Here’s the rub, though: many of the poeple totally sold on meritocracy are the same people being hosed by it. I can only tell Republicans this is a brilliant strategy on their part, even if I hate the outcome. Also, while I am white and have zero issue with the concept of white privilege, I can see how over pemphasizing minority politics and really ignoring a lot of the class and labor issues that they once focused on has hurt the Dems with poor, white, rural people.

Again, though, how do you reach people who are convinced the rich assholes in charge have their best interests at heart,  even as they strip their healthcare and other benefits? I do support the left refining  their message and thinking harder about the tone of it, but maybe some have given up reaching the other side because of this issue? Not saying it’s right at all, but I really struggle with this amongst poeple I know. How do I convince them they are getting harmed by the same people they believe are their heroes?
« Last Edit: November 12, 2018, 11:34:25 AM by TrudgingAlong »

GuitarStv

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #54 on: November 12, 2018, 11:27:20 AM »
Quote
The 'endgame' of discussing and pointing out white privledge is not to take away from your own accomplishments, it's to increase empathy for those who work just as hard but aren't able to succeed because of their race.  Ideally, it will eventually change how folks think about race and the impacts of long standing, measurable, institutionalized racism . . . which will help to continue reducing the problem.

So if I'm hearing you right, your goal of using the term "white privilege" is to...

-increase empathy for other races
-change how folks think about race
-reduce the problem of racism

I think we'd both agree that language matters, right?  So I would ask: Are there other ways to achieve these goals that don't invoke language that a non-trivial number of people, including allies and potential allies, find insulting?

There could be.  But why do you find the term insulting?


In this thread, I'm hearing lots of beautiful, nuanced explanations for why the term "white privilege" shouldn't be insulting, but I can guarantee you the vast majority of the USA will not get that nuance and will find the term abrasive.   It's as though progressives are actively  trying to be the shittiest marketers in the world.   What are we actually trying to do here?  Are we trying to win elections or just blow off steam?  Is the term "white privilege" absolutely the best we can do?  I really doubt it.

Again, why do you believe that the term is insulting?  I'm a white guy, and have never found it to be insulting.


MMM uses the term "clown-car" habit to help jar people out of that habit, and I find it quite effective.  But when you take that same approach to someone's race, it doesn't quite work the same way.  It's not just that the term is jarring, it's that the condition being described, being white, isn't changeable.  There's nothing I can do to stop being white.  There's nothing I can to stop receiving these amazing benefits.

That's true.  There's also nothing that a black guy can do to stop being black.  That's the inherent unfairness of institutional racism.


Let's do an analogy: Let's say I grew up in Cleveland, OH and I'm a Cleveland Indians fan (a small market team); over time, I see myself as someone cheering for the underdog, and I see my city as an underdog city, and that underdog perspective becomes part of my identity. Now someone like Frugal Toque comes along and says, You're not an Indians fan and you've never been an Indians fan.  You're a Yankees fan.   But don't worry, I'm a Yankees fan, too, all white people are Yankees fans, and you should only find this insulting if you actually are one of those Yankees fans. 

I don't follow your analogy.  White people are the underdog, and cheering for white people to win is part of who you are?

As a side note, why do we have to use a sports team with an overtly racist caricature at all?  Why does one exist?


There are plenty of very intelligent people advocating for the usage of the term "white privilege", but I believe you are, to borrow a phrase, behaving like useful idiots.  You are enabling the very outcome that you're trying to prevent.  You think you are advancing racial justice, but really, by using terms like "white privilege", you made it possible for someone like Donald Trump to become president in the first place. And by continuing to use language like this, you're making it easier for him to win reelection.

OK?  So, you don't want people to talk about the privilege they enjoy because it might make them feel bad?  It's a serious problem that needs to be brought up regularly until it's stamped out.  How would you prefer that this is done?

FrugalToque

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #55 on: November 12, 2018, 11:36:46 AM »
There could be.  But why do you find the term insulting?

That's a big issue there.  No matter what term we use for this effect, the people who are invested in maintaining white privilege will get angry about the term and conflate it with insults to white people.

For example, what if we called it "Black Disadvantage"?  I feel confident the "anti affirmative action" crowd would start reminding us about black-on-black violence, black gang crimes, black this and black that.  The conversation would change from institutional problems to individual acts and outcomes.

But we call it "White Privilege" and those same voices misconstrue the term to mean "Individual White Person Bob Johnson Gets More Than He Deserves" and perpetuate that interpretation through the media.

The truth is that there is no possible term we could use for this effect that wouldn't lead to someone vilifying the term and forcing us to choose another.  We just have to accept our opponents will do this and fight to spread the unfairness of the effect itself.

Toque.

DS

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #56 on: November 12, 2018, 12:52:13 PM »
The term doesn't imply your life is easy. It implies other peoples' lives are harder by default. If someone was in your exact same position but born a different race/ethnicity, it would have been more difficult for them to "soon be rich."

Jerry Springer is your chosen reference?

Interesting choice of Chris Rock - he actually did a funny bit about how everyone on his block is a dentist or lawyer. He has become a huge celebrity just to live next to white people with "ordinary" jobs.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2018, 12:55:50 PM by DS »

neo von retorch

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #57 on: November 12, 2018, 12:58:12 PM »
Toque and GuitarStv have asked why I find the term term "white privilege" insulting.  Here is why:

It overly-simplifies my journey through life, and trivializes my accomplishments.  It narrows my wide range of varied life experience into a single variable that I cannot even control.  It cherrypicks the huge number of potential advantages a person could have in life, and emphasizes one of the advantages that I've had, to the exclusion and obfuscation of other potential advantages and disadvantages I might have experienced.   

...
My life may have been a breeze, or it might not have.  I won't get into a game of the misfortune Olympics here, but I highly doubt Chris Rock would ever want to switch places with me, despite my white privilege, and I'll soon be rich.
...

No it doesn't. Stating that white people in a white dominant culture where advantages are manifold for white people does not "overly simplify" any individual's journey through life. It doesn't change your journey. You had exactly the advantages and challenges that you had, and that cannot be changed or summarized by a phrase that applies to an entire culture.

The important thing to realize is that recognizing your privilege does not have to greatly change or affect your life at all. As a group who seeks to alleviate the most troublesome burdens any of us might bear, we should look at the worst issues, the greatest burdens, the largest inequities. Those are reasonable to target and attempt to diminish, so that so many more of us can pursue happiness. And, if you value things like equality and sharing your advantages with those with less advantages, then you can choose to do so. We know that many with the quantifiable advantage of being born white neither recognize that advantage nor wish to give it up (which they can avoid doing by ignoring it.) But so many of us do care about equality and so we must admit the inequalities that exist, label them if it helps to communicate and address the issue, and work towards reducing that inequality.

Your chosen example of one person comparing their life to your one life is, of course, an anecdote. I cannot speak to the accuracy of your assertion because I don't know what Chris Rock values in life, or how he would evaluate your life. But that anecdote does nothing to change the big picture or the data of large groups of people. (And that data does nothing to change the anecdote of your personal life!)

runbikerun

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #58 on: November 12, 2018, 01:02:26 PM »
Toque and GuitarStv have asked why I find the term term "white privilege" insulting.  Here is why:

It overly-simplifies my journey through life, and trivializes my accomplishments.  It narrows my wide range of varied life experience into a single variable that I cannot even control.  It cherrypicks the huge number of potential advantages a person could have in life, and emphasizes one of the advantages that I've had, to the exclusion and obfuscation of other potential advantages and disadvantages I might have experienced.

You haven't explained how the existence or use of the term does any of these things. It's impossible to provide an actual argument here, because there's no actual argument to engage with. We have no explanation of how the term narrows your range of life experience into a single variable, and so all we can do is say "no, it doesn't". I'm not being facetious: there's no explanation of the claims you're making, and so there's nothing we can provide any kind of a reaction to.

GuitarStv

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #59 on: November 12, 2018, 01:24:11 PM »
Toque and GuitarStv have asked why I find the term term "white privilege" insulting.  Here is why:

It overly-simplifies my journey through life, and trivializes my accomplishments.  It narrows my wide range of varied life experience into a single variable that I cannot even control.  It cherrypicks the huge number of potential advantages a person could have in life, and emphasizes one of the advantages that I've had, to the exclusion and obfuscation of other potential advantages and disadvantages I might have experienced.

I can kinda agree with you here.  Pointing out your white privilege does cherry pick one advantage that you have through life . . . the advantages granted by the colour of your skin.  That's the point.  You have an advantage because of your race.  That's what 'white privilege' is.

You are arguing that this excludes and hides the other advantages/disadvantages that you might have experienced.  I don't agree with that.  If you grew up poor, you had a harder time.  If your parents weren't well educated, you had a harder time.  If you had shitty teachers, you had a harder time.  I'm not saying that you didn't.  Just because you have white privilege doesn't mean you don't have to work hard, or that your life has been a cakewalk.  Hell, I had good parents, came from a middle class family, am straight/male/white, and my mom says I'm handsome . . . those are a lot of advantages.  I had to work hard to get where I am.


But Toque and Steve, you both seem to find the term a real winner, so go ahead and keep using it.

What term would you prefer people to describe the advantages you have because you're white?


P.S. Using your reasoning, what if people started using the term "Canadian Privilege" since Canadians get universal health care and having that makes early retirement planning a helluva lot easier.  Personally, I would never do that though because just because your healthcare is paid for, that doesn't mean your life is on easy street.  I've enjoyed the discussion.  Have a great day.

My friend from Trinidad who I mentioned earlier currently has stage 4 lung cancer and has been on medication and in treatments that cost well into the hundreds of thousands of dollars each month for the past year and a half.  I have no doubt that he's still alive because he was privileged enough to live in Canada.  There's just no way his family could afford his care in the States.  That doesn't mean that stage 4 lunch cancer has been a treat for him, or easy.

FrugalToque

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #60 on: November 12, 2018, 01:41:27 PM »
Toque and GuitarStv have asked why I find the term term "white privilege" insulting.  Here is why:

It overly-simplifies my journey through life, and trivializes my accomplishments.  It narrows my wide range of varied life experience into a single variable that I cannot even control.  It cherrypicks the huge number of potential advantages a person could have in life, and emphasizes one of the advantages that I've had, to the exclusion and obfuscation of other potential advantages and disadvantages I might have experienced.   

I understand that you feel it does this to you, but I don't agree and feel you're taking insult where this is none to be taken.  From where I stand it says, "The journey you have taken through life would have been much more difficult had your skin colour been different.  Take that into account when judging people who haven't had that advantage."

It is your point of view only that the phrase "white privilege" somehow minimizes or pigeonholes or abbreviates your accomplishments.  It is not the term itself, which simply indicates that your complex journey through life, your interactions with people and institutions, has taken place through an advantageous filter.

Quote
P.S. Using your reasoning, what if people started using the term "Canadian Privilege" since Canadians get universal health care and having that makes early retirement planning a helluva lot easier.  Personally, I would never do that though because just because your healthcare is paid for, that doesn't mean your life is on easy street.  I've enjoyed the discussion.  Have a great day.

Being a Canadian is a huge privilege.  If someone said to me "retiring in Canada is easier because you have universal healthcare", I would have to agree.  If someone said, "Retiring in the U.S. is impossible, because we don't have universal healthcare", I would disagree.

I would not feel insulted, however, because someone points out an advantage I have.  My self-esteem is stronger than that and you've taken nothing from me by pointing this out.

Toque.

ixtap

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #61 on: November 12, 2018, 02:32:43 PM »
The term doesn't imply your life is easy. It implies other peoples' lives are harder by default.

Right.  Which is really stupid implication to make.

Now statistics and facts are stupid??

Watchmaker

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #62 on: November 12, 2018, 03:52:58 PM »
I feel like I've been doing this a ton recently, but I'd like to thank (almost) everyone contributing to this thread for being respectful and open minded. I genuinely believe in the value of this kind of conversation to improve the world.

I don't have the time to add much useful right now, except to say I know a fair number of working class white people (who have had much tougher lives then I have) who bristle at the phrase "white privilege" for many of the same reasons discussed. And I do think it is important to get through to those people. The best approach I've found has been to say something like "if everything about your life was exactly the same except you were black, do you think your life would be easier or harder? Now, imagine we made that change when you were very young, would your earlier life have been easier or harder? What if we changed it so your parents were black?" (This is similar to the language used by someone up thread). Sometimes it works a bit, but a lot of the time they still don't think it would have mattered.

Psychstache

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #63 on: November 12, 2018, 04:12:12 PM »
The term doesn't imply your life is easy. It implies other peoples' lives are harder by default.

Right.  Which is really stupid implication to make.

Now statistics and facts are stupid??
Of course they are, this is 2016 after all!

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maizefolk

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #64 on: November 12, 2018, 04:20:33 PM »
I think one of the reasons the term often lands askew is that in modern english "privileges" are things that are given on sufferance, and which can be revoked. "Rights" are things which all human beings should be entitled to, and it's a problem when they don't receive them. There are some things which are zero sum (like college admissions), but for the vast majority of the topics we're discussing (police shootings, getting pulled over repeatedly, getting callbacks for jobs when you're qualified regardless of your name), the goal isn't to pull white people down, it's to target and remove a barrier people of color face in our societies.

FrugalToque, when you say things like:

No matter what term we use for this effect, the people who are invested in maintaining white privilege will get angry about the term and conflate it with insults to white people. ... The truth is that there is no possible term we could use for this effect that wouldn't lead to someone vilifying the term and forcing us to choose another.  We just have to accept our opponents will do this and fight to spread the unfairness of the effect itself.

It sounds to me like you think all of the people you are arguing with are doing so in bad faith, and that it's a question of a fundamental disagreement of values where changing the language without changing the ideas isn't going to change anything.

In my own experience, changing the framing matters a lot. I can make two equivalent statements: "black people are much more likely than white people to get shot by the police, and it needs to stop" and "white people are less more likely than black people to get shot by the police, and it needs to stop" but I will get a much more positive reaction from the sort of midwestern swing voters I grew up with if I use the first framing than the second, because to them it sounds like the first case is pointing out an injustice to be corrected and the second is arguing the police should treat white people worse. Now, don't get me wrong, some people will chose to be offended or disparage the idea with either framing. It's just that it's a lot fewer people with the first framing.

Now I suppose there is no way for me to prove that I'm not arguing in bad faith myself. All I can do is say that, in my experience, it is so much easier to make progress when you use language that emphasizes the need for people to be treated equally, regardless of the color of their skin, rather than language that makes it sound like some people have life too good and it needs to be made harder (because of the color of their skin).

I'm going to say it one last time, and then I'm out of the thread and you can listen, or call me names ,or ignore me as you will:

I'm working towards the exact same goals that I think most people in this thread want to achieve.* All I'm saying is that thinking about the emotional connotations of language make it a lot easier to keep a majority of the country on the side of supporting those same goals.

*Again, I guess there is no way for me to prove this. *shrug*

waltworks

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #65 on: November 12, 2018, 04:47:24 PM »
I personally am not insulted by the term "white privilege", but if it's that upsetting to people, why not use "minority disadvantage" or something like that? Because there *are* people out there who want to make white people feel bad about being white, which is pretty counterproductive. And I'd agree the term has become associated with that sort of mindset.

-W

MonkeyJenga

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #66 on: November 12, 2018, 04:55:09 PM »
I mean, seriously.  You really think white working class people are going to have anything but a negative reaction to "white privilege"???  And your plan is to tell all of them that their gut reaction is wrong?  Why not just use a term that doesn't provoke that negative reaction?  Wouldn't that be more sensible?  Apparently, I am the only one who feels this way.   

You're not the only person who feels that way. Multiple people have made or agreed with this point and said use whatever phrasing works for your audience. And asked for alternate suggestions.

There is no central racial justice marketing agency, so the term isn't going to disappear even if everyone in this thread agreed to some hypothetical better term. So if the term is gonna be out there, there's always gonna be some conversation with people who are offended by it.

MonkeyJenga

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #67 on: November 12, 2018, 05:28:15 PM »
Fidoh - what do you suggest people do? What are you doing to have a different term take hold? Are you getting involved with racial justice groups and suggesting better ideas to their leadership? Are you organizing a gofundme to pay a fancy advertising firm to come up with a better term?

FrugalToque

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #68 on: November 12, 2018, 05:31:39 PM »
FrugalToque, when you say things like:

No matter what term we use for this effect, the people who are invested in maintaining white privilege will get angry about the term and conflate it with insults to white people. ... The truth is that there is no possible term we could use for this effect that wouldn't lead to someone vilifying the term and forcing us to choose another.  We just have to accept our opponents will do this and fight to spread the unfairness of the effect itself.
It sounds to me like you think all of the people you are arguing with are doing so in bad faith, and that it's a question of a fundamental disagreement of values where changing the language without changing the ideas isn't going to change anything.
No.  I think there is a core of media personalities who intentionally misconstrue the intent of social justice movements and use their fame and celebrity to spread their intentional errors.
"Feminists hate men and want to destroy them."
"White privilege is about making me feel guilty."
"Black people blame everything on white people."

Certainly, once this gets out, a lot of people soak into the righteous rage and start getting upset on their own, but only the principle marketers of the original, intentional error are acting in bad faith.

Quote
In my own experience, changing the framing matters a lot. I can make two equivalent statements: "black people are much more likely than white people to get shot by the police, and it needs to stop" and "white people are less more likely than black people to get shot by the police, and it needs to stop" but I will get a much more positive reaction from the sort of midwestern swing voters I grew up with if I use the first framing than the second, because to them it sounds like the first case is pointing out an injustice to be corrected and the second is arguing the police should treat white people worse. Now, don't get me wrong, some people will chose to be offended or disparage the idea with either framing. It's just that it's a lot fewer people with the first framing.

I think, when we use the second framing, we will simply open a different can of worms.  Whether it's quantifiably larger than the first is up for argument.  What we'll see in that case is countless long lists of things "black people should do" if they don't want to get shot.  I don't know that that framing works out any better.  If you want an example, ask a woman for a list of all the things she has been told to do to avoid sexual assault (the list is long, ridiculous and contains contradictory entries).

Quote
Now I suppose there is no way for me to prove that I'm not arguing in bad faith myself. All I can do is say that, in my experience, it is so much easier to make progress when you use language that emphasizes the need for people to be treated equally, regardless of the color of their skin, rather than language that makes it sound like some people have life too good and it needs to be made harder (because of the color of their skin).
I never meant to suggest that you were negotiating in bad faith, only that the central impetus for the bad reputation "white privilege" has is coming from those marketing such ideas in bad faith.  Certainly, many white people are sensitive to the idea that they are getting a better deal than average, and that makes the idea harder to swallow, but they still have to swallow it if we're going to get anywhere.

Quote
I'm going to say it one last time, and then I'm out of the thread and you can listen, or call me names ,or ignore me as you will:

I'm working towards the exact same goals that I think most people in this thread want to achieve.* All I'm saying is that thinking about the emotional connotations of language make it a lot easier to keep a majority of the country on the side of supporting those same goals.

*Again, I guess there is no way for me to prove this. *shrug*
I haven't called anyone names, as far as I can tell, and I will trust that your goals are as you say.  But white privilege is just something we have to accept exists and move on with our lives.

Part of it, perhaps, is that I was taught at a very young age that I'm privileged to live in the country I live in, with the parents I have.  My family were pretty much post-WW2 worker/immigrants (not quite refugees, per se, but close), so they saw some shitty times and knew what it was they'd found in Canada.  They made sure I knew how good I had it too, so I've never begrudged anyone saying to me, "You've got it pretty lucky to live where you live and be who you are."  It's not an insult, it's a fact.

Toque.

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #69 on: November 12, 2018, 05:36:17 PM »
Okay, breaking my rule of bowing out of the thread to apologize, as I can see how that sounded like I was saying you FrugalToque were calling other people names. Not my intention at all, and I am sorry for how that came out.

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #70 on: November 12, 2018, 05:45:08 PM »
Okay, breaking my rule of bowing out of the thread to apologize, as I can see how that sounded like I was saying you FrugalToque were calling other people names. Not my intention at all, and I am sorry for how that came out.
Don't worry.  I never thought you were.  I think you were afraid we would call you names, but that's not going to happen either.

Thanks.

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #71 on: November 12, 2018, 06:18:52 PM »
Well, you could spend time trying to explain to someone why the term "white privilege" shouldn't be offensive to white people, or you could use a different term.  You could also spend time trying to explain why the term "socialism" shouldn't have negative connotations for them, or you could use a different term.  There are plenty of intelligent, well-reasoned arguments to support claims that white privilege is real and that socialism has done much good.  But regardless, people are going to have gut reactions to those terms; they are not going to sort through comments on a forum before they form a judgement.   And logic and reason won't sway them.  We know language is powerful.  Do you want to use language to win, or to lose?  Or we just don't care either way? 

As far as I can tell the term "white privilege" didn't really enter popular usage in North America until 2014/2015.  Somehow our country made great progress in reducing systemic racism w/out using that particular term.  I'm suggesting we try doing so again.  I'm suggesting this term does more harm than good, particularly in the current political environment. 

I mean, seriously.  You really think white working class people are going to have anything but a negative reaction to "white privilege"???  And your plan is to tell all of them that their gut reaction is wrong?  Why not just use a term that doesn't provoke that negative reaction?  Wouldn't that be more sensible?  Apparently, I am the only one who feels this way.   

Yet another reminder that we've got a lot of engineers on this board, but very few marketers.

As MonkeyJenga said, there is no central decision making body choosing what words we use, so how would I go about changing it? Given that, I can see two choices:

-I can try to convince white people that the phrase white privilege is not meant attack or degrade them (which is true), or
-I can try to convince minorities that they should change the language they use to suit white people because we're sensitive. But who am I to tell them how to talk? This is their issue, my role is to support them. And who knows, maybe part of the value in the phrase is that it is controversial--it gets people talking.

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #72 on: November 12, 2018, 06:31:32 PM »
Okay, breaking my rule of bowing out of the thread to apologize, as I can see how that sounded like I was saying you FrugalToque were calling other people names. Not my intention at all, and I am sorry for how that came out.

I hope you'll decide to stick around the thread for a bit more. I find your input on this valuable, and I'm sure we can continue respectfully.

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #73 on: November 12, 2018, 06:52:52 PM »
Well, you could spend time trying to explain to someone why the term "white privilege" shouldn't be offensive to white people, or you could use a different term.  You could also spend time trying to explain why the term "socialism" shouldn't have negative connotations for them, or you could use a different term.  There are plenty of intelligent, well-reasoned arguments to support claims that white privilege is real and that socialism has done much good.  But regardless, people are going to have gut reactions to those terms; they are not going to sort through comments on a forum before they form a judgement.   And logic and reason won't sway them.  We know language is powerful.  Do you want to use language to win, or to lose?  Or we just don't care either way? 

I think that when you throw fact, reason, and logic out the window and start playing to gut emotion you have lost.  It might be possible to sway some of these people incapable of thinking for themselves to your side for a period of time, but it's a Pyrrhic victory.  A better con man can always come along and swing them away.


As far as I can tell the term "white privilege" didn't really enter popular usage in North America until 2014/2015.  Somehow our country made great progress in reducing systemic racism w/out using that particular term.  I'm suggesting we try doing so again.  I'm suggesting this term does more harm than good, particularly in the current political environment. 

The US has made great progress in reducing systematic racism.  That progress isn't even close to enough though and in recent years things are getting worse - not better.

"Between 1983 and 2013, the wealth of median Black and Latino households decreased by 75% (from $6,800 to $1,700) and 50% (from $4,000 to $2,000), respectively, while median White household wealth rose by 14% (from $102,200 to $116,800). If current trends continue, by 2020 median Black and Latino households stand to lose nearly 18% and 12%, respectively, of the wealth they held in 2013. In that same time frame, median White household wealth would see an increase of 3%. Put differently, in just under four years from now, median White households are projected to own 86 and 68 times more wealth than Black and Latino households, respectively.” - https://ips-dc.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/The-Road-to-Zero-Wealth_FINAL.pdf

The same old, same old approach that you advocate is not sufficient.


I mean, seriously.  You really think white working class people are going to have anything but a negative reaction to "white privilege"???  And your plan is to tell all of them that their gut reaction is wrong?  Why not just use a term that doesn't provoke that negative reaction?  Wouldn't that be more sensible?  Apparently, I am the only one who feels this way.   

55% of white Americans believe that they are discriminated against.  (https://www.npr.org/2017/10/24/559604836/majority-of-white-americans-think-theyre-discriminated-against)  Yes, their gut reaction is wrong.  I think that the term 'white privilege' is valuable in part because it directly counters this false narrative.

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #74 on: November 12, 2018, 07:09:40 PM »
Fidoh - what do you suggest people do? What are you doing to have a different term take hold? Are you getting involved with racial justice groups and suggesting better ideas to their leadership? Are you organizing a gofundme to pay a fancy advertising firm to come up with a better term?

MJ, thank you for the work you do. 

I am pretty sure those are rhetorical questions... but, in case they are not, I'll just say that I can barely keep my shit together for a political discussion conducted anonymously on the Internet, let alone in real life.  There are better, more talented people to save the world.  Anyway, if I think of something better, I'll let the world know (anonymously of course).

Depending on where you live, you can reach out to minority families that you run into in the places you go. We go to loads of kid soccer games, and when I see that there are non-white families standing alone at the games, (especially parents of kids on our team) I try to go over and chat -- I may be geeky and awkward, but at least they're not standing alone. I also teach our kids to keep an eye out for the minority players in case they need someone to stick up for them (which has happened, unfortunately). I keep an eye out for minority kids and/or adults being harassed by white people just out in the world. I try to walk toward non-white-looking people, look them in the eye and say "hi" when I'm out walking. (OK, that last one only works because I live in a town of just over 100,000: when I go visit my parents in bigEastCoastCity, looking people in the eye and saying "hi" can backfire into some spectacular propositioning.)

Occasionally I police other people's language: this works mostly because I'm now a wealthy-looking white lady of a certain age, and I can muster up a pretty good "mom look". (AKA the "did you actually say that?" look.)

If I worked in an office, I'd be sure to keep an eye out for poor behavior or language directed at minority or female coworkers. I'd suggest blinding on resumes submitted for posted positions.

There are loads of stuff you can do -- basically be aware, and be a decent person-- without having to go out and have an academic debate. At some point, you can work directly toward more racial equity, but really, being an ally is not nothing!

RetiredAt63

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #75 on: November 12, 2018, 07:32:42 PM »
Just thought I would post the URL for Scalzi's post (mentioned earlier) on  In the role playing game known as The Real World, “Straight White Male” is the lowest difficulty setting there is.  He really does explain it in terms that most white guys will get.

[url]https://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/[/u]

Not sure of my difficulty setting, straight white female in a mostly white world.  However, 40+ years later I still remember the conference where the moderator addressed the audience as lady and gentlemen.  Yes, over 100 men, and me. And the moderator just had to make the point that I was the only woman there.   Very cringe-worthy.  I've never seen an almost all female gathering draw negative attention like that to the few men  present.  I've always wondered how much of the male white privilege bit is colour and how much is gender.  The white patriarchy.  In a setting where colour isn't an issue, gender issues sure can can intrude.  And of course gender and colour are both visible and something we are born with, easy targets.

I sure do like the concept of a level playing field.

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #76 on: November 13, 2018, 05:26:29 AM »
Well, you could spend time trying to explain to someone why the term "white privilege" shouldn't be offensive to white people, or you could use a different term.  You could also spend time trying to explain why the term "socialism" shouldn't have negative connotations for them, or you could use a different term.

I think the vilification of "socialism" is an even more obvious example than white privilege.  While I could certainly see why "white privilege" might (just sort of) put someone on edge, there is absolutely no reason for "socialism" to do the same.  The reason "socialism" has negative connotations?  That's entirely because right wing media has caused it to have those connotations.

Your Medicaid and Medicare?  Socialism.  Police and Fire?  Socialism.  Public schools? Socialism.  On and on and on.  That's why I don't think we should tread lightly over the feelings that people have towards those words.  All that's going to happen is that the hate-mongers and will vilify the next term we use.

Toque.

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #77 on: November 13, 2018, 08:38:21 AM »
Well, you could spend time trying to explain to someone why the term "white privilege" shouldn't be offensive to white people, or you could use a different term.  You could also spend time trying to explain why the term "socialism" shouldn't have negative connotations for them, or you could use a different term.

I think the vilification of "socialism" is an even more obvious example than white privilege.  While I could certainly see why "white privilege" might (just sort of) put someone on edge, there is absolutely no reason for "socialism" to do the same.  The reason "socialism" has negative connotations?  That's entirely because right wing media has caused it to have those connotations.

Your Medicaid and Medicare?  Socialism.  Police and Fire?  Socialism.  Public schools? Socialism.  On and on and on.  That's why I don't think we should tread lightly over the feelings that people have towards those words.  All that's going to happen is that the hate-mongers and will vilify the next term we use.

Toque.
I agree, but at least for me, most negative association with the word "Socialism" is when that seemingly-innocuous word "national" is anywhere nearby. :P

I really think "white privilege" is a perfectly reasonable way to put it.  It *should* be a little uncomfortable for white people (like me).  It doesn't need to be viewed as an attack. 

A group such as white people that is not used to any racial discrimination at all is hypersensitive to any perceived discrimination, and that's exactly what it does for some people... which I would ultimately argue is a good thing, as it makes them more aware of true racial discrimination.  Way way too many (mostly white) people seem to think we're "post racism" and that it's somehow a problem in the past that is solved.  I'd blame the public school system for that at least a little bit.  It was never explicitly said, but intentional or not, the narrative that was implied in my history classes growing up (in 90+% white suburbia) was along the lines of "Slavery was abolished after the civil war, but there were still some racial issues that were eventually solved with the Civil Rights Act and things have been fine ever since."  It honestly took me a bit after high school to really realize how fucked up a view that is.  Not to mention that it basically implies racism only exists against black people and not other races.  I think Chinese-Americans were mentioned in the context of the railroads and Japanese-Americans in the context of WWII (thought that was glossed over quite a bit upon reflection), but there wasn't much else.

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #78 on: November 13, 2018, 08:55:45 AM »
We called it systematic racism, we called it institutional racism. White privilege is the first one that doesn't sound iverly academic and simultaneously asks white people to acknowledge that they benefit from entrenched racism, no matter how enlightened you are as an individual.

I have gotten to use a credit card without an ID, when the black man in front of me could not.

I have been invited to participate in a university committee when the brown man with more seniority and a field more closely aligned to the topic was not.

As shitty as it felt when hiring committees out and out told me they were choosing the minority over me, I also knew that minority would have more troubles with the administration once they were in place. And that the minority students would benefit from faces like theirs in front of them. Compare that to how it would feel knowing they chose a white person just to perpetuate the system, rather than choosing the minority to try to change the system.

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #79 on: November 13, 2018, 09:13:03 AM »
I guess I'd like to see a fellow straight white guy (SWG) explain how he thinks his life would have been easier up to this point had he been born gay, or black, or female in America.

Of course tons of gay folks, black folks, and women...folks, are super successful and happy, but I'd wager that they share a common bond; that they fought battles, even if just a few, that SWGs didn't have to fight, while the reverse cannot be said.

I can't think of a battle I've had to fight as a SWG that is unique to me being a SWG. Sure, I come from a modest background, and I've been in debt for far too long, but nothing about my SWGness has raised additional barriers. Perhaps other SWGs have had different experiences?

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #80 on: November 13, 2018, 09:33:09 AM »
I'd blame the public school system for that at least a little bit.  It was never explicitly said, but intentional or not, the narrative that was implied in my history classes growing up (in 90+% white suburbia) was along the lines of "Slavery was abolished after the civil war, but there were still some racial issues that were eventually solved with the Civil Rights Act and things have been fine ever since."  It honestly took me a bit after high school to really realize how fucked up a view that is.  Not to mention that it basically implies racism only exists against black people and not other races.  I think Chinese-Americans were mentioned in the context of the railroads and Japanese-Americans in the context of WWII (thought that was glossed over quite a bit upon reflection), but there wasn't much else.

There is definitely something to this. Currently, in most states American history is (sort of) taught in the fifth grade, although my nieces and nephews tell me it doesn't get much class time due to not being a state-tested subject at that level, and then taught again and split over 8th and 9th grade. That means that the last time the kids talk about slavery is at age 13, which is too young to discuss a lot of important aspects of the subject, unless they happen to take a college history class (which, according to my friend the history professor, turns out to be quite a shock to a lot of them!) I would like to see American history move back to the junior year of high school, when I took it (we did civics senior year.) Juniors and seniors are old enough to really grapple with these issues.

GuitarStv

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #81 on: November 13, 2018, 11:02:46 AM »
I guess I'd like to see a fellow straight white guy (SWG) explain how he thinks his life would have been easier up to this point had he been born gay, or black, or female in America.

Of course tons of gay folks, black folks, and women...folks, are super successful and happy, but I'd wager that they share a common bond; that they fought battles, even if just a few, that SWGs didn't have to fight, while the reverse cannot be said.

I can't think of a battle I've had to fight as a SWG that is unique to me being a SWG. Sure, I come from a modest background, and I've been in debt for far too long, but nothing about my SWGness has raised additional barriers. Perhaps other SWGs have had different experiences?

At the risk of stating the obvious, you know these are different questions, right?

Does white privilege exist?

Is advancing the term "white privilege" the best way to reduce racism?

What is the method to reduce racism that you approve of?

FrugalToque

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #82 on: November 13, 2018, 11:27:30 AM »
I guess I'd like to see a fellow straight white guy (SWG) explain how he thinks his life would have been easier up to this point had he been born gay, or black, or female in America.

Of course tons of gay folks, black folks, and women...folks, are super successful and happy, but I'd wager that they share a common bond; that they fought battles, even if just a few, that SWGs didn't have to fight, while the reverse cannot be said.

I can't think of a battle I've had to fight as a SWG that is unique to me being a SWG. Sure, I come from a modest background, and I've been in debt for far too long, but nothing about my SWGness has raised additional barriers. Perhaps other SWGs have had different experiences?

At the risk of stating the obvious, you know these are different questions, right?

Does white privilege exist?

Is advancing the term "white privilege" the best way to reduce racism?

What is the method to reduce racism that you approve of?

He's saying that we could advance the reduction of racism if we'd use a word different from "white privilege", because that term upsets white people.

I'm thinking that those particular white people need to be upset.

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #83 on: November 13, 2018, 01:17:38 PM »
I feel like I've been doing this a ton recently, but I'd like to thank (almost) everyone contributing to this thread for being respectful and open minded. I genuinely believe in the value of this kind of conversation to improve the world.

I don't have the time to add much useful right now, except to say I know a fair number of working class white people (who have had much tougher lives then I have) who bristle at the phrase "white privilege" for many of the same reasons discussed. And I do think it is important to get through to those people. The best approach I've found has been to say something like "if everything about your life was exactly the same except you were black, do you think your life would be easier or harder? Now, imagine we made that change when you were very young, would your earlier life have been easier or harder? What if we changed it so your parents were black?" (This is similar to the language used by someone up thread). Sometimes it works a bit, but a lot of the time they still don't think it would have mattered.

A white person overcoming a tough upbringing does not make their hard work any less admirable and doesn't mean that white privilege doesn't exist; it does.  I think a lot of these people, especially those who have worked hard to change their circumstances, want acknowledgement for their hard work and hate the idea that they got help in any form because it often doesn't feel like it at the time.  But, we all get help along the way.

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #84 on: November 13, 2018, 02:06:29 PM »
I guess I'd like to see a fellow straight white guy (SWG) explain how he thinks his life would have been easier up to this point had he been born gay, or black, or female in America.

Of course tons of gay folks, black folks, and women...folks, are super successful and happy, but I'd wager that they share a common bond; that they fought battles, even if just a few, that SWGs didn't have to fight, while the reverse cannot be said.

I can't think of a battle I've had to fight as a SWG that is unique to me being a SWG. Sure, I come from a modest background, and I've been in debt for far too long, but nothing about my SWGness has raised additional barriers. Perhaps other SWGs have had different experiences?

At the risk of stating the obvious, you know these are different questions, right?

Does white privilege exist?

Is advancing the term "white privilege" the best way to reduce racism?

What is the method to reduce racism that you approve of?

He's saying that we could advance the reduction of racism if we'd use a word different from "white privilege", because that term upsets white people.

I'm thinking that those particular white people need to be upset.

I agree.

You can't always be gentle with people. I mean, it works sometimes but not others.

And at the risk of stating the obvious, the term "white privilege" is technically accurate. We have privileges for being white that other people don't get.

If some dudes want to get all bent out of shape about the term, oh well. The more SWGs like us use it in conversation with other SWGs, the better. Maybe they'll get used to it, stop bristling, and actually think.

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #85 on: November 13, 2018, 03:42:52 PM »
I'm not so sure about that.   Our political classes exploit the division that comes from upsetting people.

When I compare the 'white privilege' metaphor to the 'easy difficulty' metaphor of Scalzi's post I relate much better to Scalzi.   And not to the kick ass and take names approach of calling out privilege.

 https://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/     

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #86 on: November 13, 2018, 03:46:16 PM »
I think that no matter what word or phrase you use to describe it, white people are going to get upset.  It is part of the zero-sum mentality many people seem to have.

What many white people are upset about is the drop in cultural status that a term like "white privilege", which calls out systemic racism, entails.  They are out working hard, living their lives, minding their own business, not being openly racist, and then all of a sudden, people are implying that by just participating in the system that they are somehow contributing to racism.  I just wish people had a better understanding of how the world actually works.  If minorities and women are valued more, white males aren't necessarily valued less. 

However while the world is not zero-sum, some of the sub-systems in it are.  Harvard only takes so many students.  It probably feels pretty bad when you are the white guy who worked his whole childhood and is denied an opportunity due to a quota system.  I can empathize with that, and I wish that we could find a way to be more inclusive in those types of systems while still addressing the actual systemic sources of racism.

Quote
Yeah we Asians just love being used by white people in the implicit put down of other minorities.    In the business world white people have a huge leg up over Asian Americans, it's so obvious from the studies and from personal experience.   If we were treated as well as whites, we'd have even higher incomes relative to white people.  Not to mention the social and dating world by far favors whites over Asians, especially white men over Asian men.  So GTFO with that ridiculous BS man.   

White people are so damn sensitive.   We are not denigrating your personal experience, just saying all else equal white people have an advantage in life over minorities.   I get it, it's hard to admit something when you benefit from it.
 

A lot of white people like to use the Asian card as proof that racism is "over", or the fact that there are more women in college than men. However, they aren't looking at the real ultimate outcomes.  Yes, more women graduate from college, but once they are out of the educational system, representation in upper management, partnerships, CEOs etc... plummets. 

GuitarStv

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #87 on: November 13, 2018, 03:53:24 PM »
OK.  Mentioning privilege is out.

Is that enough though?  Are there any other special accommodations that we all need to follow to keep this a safe space for the group of people who benefit daily from the oppression of others . . . the same group of people who tend to be passionately against special accommodations for others?

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #88 on: November 13, 2018, 06:04:10 PM »
As a white person from a family of working class, rural "boot-strappers", here's what I think.

Most of my family members love to talk about their hard work.

It's important to remind them, when talking about privilege, is this: hard work and privilege CAN and OFTEN DO co-exist.  They are not mutually exclusive.


Sometimes though, it does just help to point out that it was a black "good guy with a gun" who was shot by the police this weekend as a security guard, and a white perp who survived.

And that I don't really have to worry that my blond kid is going to be shot if he reaches into his hoodie to pull out his phone.  Or if he's going to be stopped and asked if that bicycle is his.  Or if he's going to be followed around when he's buying chips at the convenience store.

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #89 on: November 13, 2018, 08:19:29 PM »
Quote
He's saying that we could advance the reduction of racism if we'd use a word different from "white privilege", because that term upsets white people.

I'm thinking that those particular white people need to be upset.

Just look at the Black Lives Matter movement. All Lives Matter is the gut reaction from white people* to perpetuate white power.

Of course, the point of BLM isn't to say that all lives don't matter. It's to point out police brutality and various social injustices happening to people of color. We all know that. What this really goes to show is that racism very much exists. Racism at its natural, fundamental core - acting on instinct. That's what we've truly learned from BLM. In this case, I agree. It's necessary to make people uncomfortable and/or upset.


*not all white people, certain white people (and an alarming number of them)

DS

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #90 on: November 14, 2018, 07:40:16 AM »
Agree with the points above. People LOVE to call themselves hard workers no matter what the heck they do.

"So strong. Much hard work. Toughest weather conditions where I live, friend."

And the term makes them feel like it's not hard work anymore so they are losing their identity. Just a gut reaction.

One

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #91 on: November 18, 2018, 10:07:11 PM »
It's just a buzz word used to divide people, nothing positive will come from lumping individuals into groups based on the color of skin

Jordan B Peterson on white privilege
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=3s&v=kRz0i0gh2iE&app=desktop&persist_app=1
« Last Edit: November 18, 2018, 10:36:09 PM by One »

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #92 on: November 19, 2018, 01:34:54 AM »
It's just a buzz word used to divide people, nothing positive will come from lumping individuals into groups based on the color of skin

Jordan B Peterson on white privilege
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=3s&v=kRz0i0gh2iE&app=desktop&persist_app=1

The trouble is, the divisions are there long before the buzz word.  Separate but not equal, yeah?  All the buzz word is doing is pointing that out.  Of course the people on the side that currently and historically gets the lion's share are going to be uncomfortable with that being pointed out.  But what's your alternative?

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #93 on: November 19, 2018, 01:51:28 AM »
I’m over 6 feet tall, I’m not only white privileged but height privileged as well. Too bad life’s so unfair.

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #94 on: November 19, 2018, 02:27:09 AM »
I’m over 6 feet tall, I’m not only white privileged but height privileged as well. Too bad life’s so unfair.


Not all of us are heightist.  And those of us that are can work to overcome it.  It'll suck to be you when we succeed.

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #95 on: November 19, 2018, 08:52:25 AM »
I’m over 6 feet tall, I’m not only white privileged but height privileged as well. Too bad life’s so unfair.

No matter how hard your life is, none of your struggles will be due to pigments in your skin.

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #96 on: November 19, 2018, 09:22:38 AM »
I have hope for the future.  I overheard a conversation my 17 year DD and some of her friends were having about privilege.  The group include gay and minority kids and while they joked that white straight boys had it the easiest, all agreed they were all privileged as all came from higher income families with married parents.  They pointed out to DD that she was a pretty, smart white girl and therefore had it easy also - she laughed and agreed.  I was amazed that they could discuss this so openly without anyone getting insulted.   

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #97 on: November 19, 2018, 11:41:26 AM »
It's not that difficult to understand, really.  Privilege and prejudice are two sides of the same coin.  If you (e.g., a white person) did not have to overcome prejudice to get where you are today, you are privileged.  It does not (necessarily) mean that you yourself are prejudiced or racist.  So there is no reason to be defensive, it's just an observation that you enjoyed certain social advantages that a similarly situated person of color did not. 

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #98 on: November 20, 2018, 06:38:42 AM »
It's just a buzz word used to divide people, nothing positive will come from lumping individuals into groups based on the color of skin

Jordan B Peterson on white privilege
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=3s&v=kRz0i0gh2iE&app=desktop&persist_app=1

Speaking as a Canadian, I can't stand Jordan Peterson and his empty, intentionally misinterpreted, ivory tower conservatism.  Here's the quote from that video:

Quote
The idea of White privilege is reprehensible.  Not because white people aren't privileged. We have all sorts of privileges. Most people have privilege.  You should be grateful for your privileges and work to deserve them.

So, Mr. Peterson acknowledges that white privilege exists and that we should, what?  Ignore it?  Work to make sure it doesn't unduly influence opportunities for non-white people?  What should be done?

Quote
But the idea that you can target an ethnic group with a collective crime, regardless of the specific innocence or guilt of the constituent elements of that group.  There is absolutely nothing that's more racist than that."

Oh, I see.  So even though he acknowledges it exists, we shouldn't do anything about it except whine about how mean it is to white people when we talk about it.

Here is a man, pretending to be an intellectual, making an infantile, self-serving, obviously wrong statement about white privilege.

White privilege is *not* an accusation.  It is not a collective crime.  It is not "targeting".  That's his overly sensitive and incorrect judgement.

He acknowledges that white people are privileged, then immediately says that admitting this, or saying it, is the most absolutely racist thing anyone can do.

Toque.

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Re: White Privilege - A tale of two issues?
« Reply #99 on: November 20, 2018, 06:54:39 AM »
Thanks, Toque.  Being totally unfamiliar with the gentleman in question's works, you have now explained to me part of why he may be so favoured on a certain citrus journal.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!