Poll

Which of the main 2 political parties aligns best with mustacian ideologies? (Ignoring Current Candidates)

Democratic Party
22 (53.7%)
Republican Party
19 (46.3%)

Total Members Voted: 41

Author Topic: Which of the main 2 political parties aligns best with mustacian ideologies?  (Read 5710 times)

CmFtns

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I can already hear the angry fingers revving up ready to fill this thread up with pages of back and forth arguments about our current canidates so PLEASE take that to the many other threads discussing them. Let's ignore the current candidate options and personal opinions about them and get some ideas out about which political parties general platform ideas aligns best with the ideologies of the mustacian lifestyle.


so here's how I want this to work:
State a mustacian ideology and then state which party you believe embodies that ideology best and why.
Also vote to say which party you believe best embodies mustacian lifestyle as a whole.


-reduce spending: I believe the republican party embodies this ideology best because they promote less government spending. However, I also believe that while the democratic party does not embody this ideology, they actually create an environment that allows less spending for the mustacian individual due to us appearing "poor" and being able to take advantage of many social programs.

-eliminate debt: I believe the republican party embodies this idealogy best because national debt has gone down (or not risen as quickly) on average during republican control.

-personal responsibility for your actions/debt/fiances: Most mustacians have great pride in their personal responibility and ability to prepare and fend for themselves. I believe the republican party embodies this ideology best because equal taxes and less social programs promotes personal responsibility for your actions and rewards hard work.

-living in an environmentally friendly way: I believe democratic party best embodies living in an environmental way due to them recognizing and promoting more environment efforts.


« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 11:59:56 AM by CmFtns »

Northwestie

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I can already hear the angry fingers revving up ready to fill this thread up with pages of back and forth arguments about our current canidates so PLEASE take that to the many other threads discussing them. Let's ignore the current candidate options and personal opinions about them and get some ideas out about which political parties general platform ideas aligns best with the ideologies of the mustacian lifestyle.


so here's how I want this to work:
State a mustacian ideology and then state which party you believe embodies that ideology best and why.
Also vote to say which party you believe best embodies mustacian lifestyle as a whole.


-reduce spending: I believe the republican party embodies this ideology best because they promote less government spending. However, I also believe that while the democratic party does not embody this ideology, they actually create an environment that allows less spending for the mustacian individual due to us appearing "poor" and being able to take advantage of many social programs.

-eliminate debt: I believe the republican party embodies this idealogy best because national debt has gone down (or not risen as quickly) on average during republican control.

-personal responsibility for your actions/debt/fiances: Most mustacians have great pride in their personal responibility and ability to prepare and fend for themselves. I believe the republican party embodies this ideology best because equal taxes and less social programs promotes personal responsibility for your actions and rewards hard work.

-living in an environmentally friendly way: I believe democratic party best embodies environmental protection due to recognizing and promoting more environment efforts.

Interesting -I'd agree that the GOP generally likes to put forward that they are in favor of fiscal responsibility, debt elimination, and personal responsibility.  It's just not how they govern for example.  Bloated military budgets, tax cuts without corresponding capital outlays, extremely costly foreign interventions, support for huge subsidies for corporate farming and big oil, hampering the IRS to collect from tax cheats, and a huge tilt towards big business giveaways.  Mostly the talk is PR.

While democrats are often characterized as tax and spend, it's fairly accurate to depict the GOP as borrow and spend.

2Birds1Stone

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Lol, there is a huge bias on these boards towards liberal agenda.

Most folks FIRE plans involve ACA.

CmFtns

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Lol, there is a huge bias on these boards towards liberal agenda.

Most folks FIRE plans involve ACA.

Yea I totally agree that these forums are primarily liberal and it will be really interesting to hear from some of them as to why they think that the liberal ideas align with mustacian ideas.

I totally think that it would be easier to retire if democrats were always in power but that doesn't mean that I think that their spending on social programs is mustacian... even if mustacians benefit because we can live efficient luxurious lives in those income brackets.

Planning fire plans on a certain political agenda seems dangerous because ACA could very well go away at some point and/or someone could figure out what we're doing and start taxing net worth every year for example.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 12:13:35 PM by CmFtns »

boarder42

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i think the question is just as bad as the system itself.  a 2 party system where there is not middle ground isnt a great choice either way.  i think during the earning phase i lean towards less social services lower taxes etc.

once FIREd some social services now become more interesting to me keeping more of my money.

really i think we should go to FAIRTAX b/c then you can lower your taxes by lowering your consumption. win win all around.

Jrr85

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I can already hear the angry fingers revving up ready to fill this thread up with pages of back and forth arguments about our current canidates so PLEASE take that to the many other threads discussing them. Let's ignore the current candidate options and personal opinions about them and get some ideas out about which political parties general platform ideas aligns best with the ideologies of the mustacian lifestyle.


so here's how I want this to work:
State a mustacian ideology and then state which party you believe embodies that ideology best and why.
Also vote to say which party you believe best embodies mustacian lifestyle as a whole.


-reduce spending: I believe the republican party embodies this ideology best because they promote less government spending. However, I also believe that while the democratic party does not embody this ideology, they actually create an environment that allows less spending for the mustacian individual due to us appearing "poor" and being able to take advantage of many social programs.

-eliminate debt: I believe the republican party embodies this idealogy best because national debt has gone down (or not risen as quickly) on average during republican control.

-personal responsibility for your actions/debt/fiances: Most mustacians have great pride in their personal responibility and ability to prepare and fend for themselves. I believe the republican party embodies this ideology best because equal taxes and less social programs promotes personal responsibility for your actions and rewards hard work.

-living in an environmentally friendly way: I believe democratic party best embodies living in an environmental way due to them recognizing and promoting more environment efforts.

Each party has portions of their platform that sound mustachian, but neither actually act in a way that reflects those principles. 

The GOP would be the obvious choice because they at least give lip service to the idea that there are times when spending more money isn't the answer but they haven't actually reduced spending when in power, just redirected where it is spent.  It does appear the democrat party may be moving left in this regard; the people wanting trillions upon trillions of new spending were a fringe of the party that the politicians made promises to with no intent to keep them, but now it appears they may have real power within the party.  So maybe there will be real separation between the parties in the future, with republicans favoring a level of spending that will be disastrous within four or five decades, and democrats preferring spending that will bisastrous within one or two decades. 

CmFtns

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i think the question is just as bad as the system itself.  a 2 party system where there is not middle ground isnt a great choice either way.  i think during the earning phase i lean towards less social services lower taxes etc.

once FIREd some social services now become more interesting to me keeping more of my money.

really i think we should go to FAIRTAX b/c then you can lower your taxes by lowering your consumption. win win all around.

Yea I agree but that doesn't change the fact that there is the idea that if you don't vote for one of these 2 parties then your vote is "wasted". Until something really crazy happens to fracture this 2 party system we have... then we kind of have to accept it... And who knows maybe this year will get a 3rd party polling high enough to cause that fracture.

I actually do hope that happens

boarder42

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yes i'd vote for gary johnson and we really should switch our polling system to the one CGP grey talks about in this youtube video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y3jE3B8HsE


Telecaster

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-eliminate debt: I believe the republican party embodies this idealogy best because national debt has gone down (or not risen as quickly) on average during republican control.

That's demonstrably not true.  Deficits and debt have grown much more vigorously during Republican control. 

GuitarStv

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Lol, there is a huge bias on these boards towards liberal agenda.

Most folks FIRE plans involve ACA.

The ACA is more similar than different to the republican plan put forth during Clinton's presidency.  It was largely modeled off of Republican legislation introduced by Romney.  Can you really call the ACA part of a 'liberal agenda'?
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 02:28:45 PM by GuitarStv »

Jack

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The answer to the poll is "neither," and I'm offended by its premise.

CmFtns

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-eliminate debt: I believe the republican party embodies this idealogy best because national debt has gone down (or not risen as quickly) on average during republican control.

That's demonstrably not true.  Deficits and debt have grown much more vigorously during Republican control.

Grabbed some data and made a chart about debt to GDP percentage as well as which party controlled the presidency, congress, and senate. I feel like there are clear trends of debt increase during democratic control.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 01:59:21 PM by CmFtns »

iris lily

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Lol, there is a huge bias on these boards towards liberal agenda.

Most folks FIRE plans involve ACA.
Because  the mf ACA took away my ablity to buy a cheap high deductible policy.

forummm

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Lol, there is a huge bias on these boards towards liberal agenda.

Most folks FIRE plans involve ACA.
Because  the mf ACA took away my ablity to buy a cheap high deductible policy.

A policy that would be essentially worthless and/or incredibly expensive as you got older.

forummm

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The OP question is rooted in a fallacy. Neither party aligns with mustachian ideologies because that's not what a government is supposed to do. There's a huge difference between what makes sense for a government to do to most effectively advance the goals of the nation and what makes sense for individuals to do to advance their own personal goals. It makes a ton of sense for government to spend lots of money on research and promote advances in technology because it benefits the citizenry and sometimes results in new industries, etc. It may not make sense at all for an individual to do the same thing. Individuals want to retire at some point, but a government needs to keep working for centuries. Individuals should cut their spending during an economic downturn, but the government should do the opposite (use cheap debt to stimulate the economy by investing in good infrastructure projects, etc, that also get people back to work and shorten/lessen the downturn).

KCM5

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The OP question is rooted in a fallacy. Neither party aligns with mustachian ideologies because that's not what a government is supposed to do. There's a huge difference between what makes sense for a government to do to most effectively advance the goals of the nation and what makes sense for individuals to do to advance their own personal goals. It makes a ton of sense for government to spend lots of money on research and promote advances in technology because it benefits the citizenry and sometimes results in new industries, etc. It may not make sense at all for an individual to do the same thing. Individuals want to retire at some point, but a government needs to keep working for centuries. Individuals should cut their spending during an economic downturn, but the government should do the opposite (use cheap debt to stimulate the economy by investing in good infrastructure projects, etc, that also get people back to work and shorten/lessen the downturn).

+1

Yes. This is a macro question, but we're all working towards a micro goal.

Personally, I'm a flaming liberal on macro issues, but quite conservative with my own goals/actions.

I did not answer the poll.

forummm

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-eliminate debt: I believe the republican party embodies this idealogy best because national debt has gone down (or not risen as quickly) on average during republican control.

That's demonstrably not true.  Deficits and debt have grown much more vigorously during Republican control.

Grabbed some data and made a chart about debt to GDP percentage as well as which party controlled the presidency, congress, and senate. I feel like there are clear trends of debt increase during democratic control.

I don't see that correlation at all. It looks more like no relationship. There are counter examples to both ways you could argue it. And of course the data is flawed because you have a lot of ongoing deficit baked into the budget from prior actions of Congress, so even if you decrease the deficit a lot this graphic could make it look like you ran up the debt.

Papa Mustache

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And wouldn't outside factors influence gov't spending? Wars and recession? Not an easy questions to answer in my mind.

Roland of Gilead

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A policy that would be essentially worthless and/or incredibly expensive as you got older.

+1

Get cancer then go try and get a pre ACA "cheap" policy.

ACA retirement is the one reason I am going to be able to hold my nose and vote for Hillary.  I think she is very likely to veto any significant change to it.

marty998

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Lol, there is a huge bias on these boards towards liberal agenda.

Most folks FIRE plans involve ACA.

Yea I totally agree that these forums are primarily liberal and it will be really interesting to hear from some of them as to why they think that the liberal ideas align with mustacian ideas.

This is because the conservatives (globally, not just in your country) allow the crazy loony right argue on their behalf, which is easy for Liberals to shout down. If GOP minded people argued their case in a nuanced and fair-minded manner (IMO) they would get a lot more traction.

The issue with that is that fair-minded conservatives are too busy working hard in jobs to have the time to protest (or write lengthy philosophical tomes on MMM forums). I'm always reminded of the far left at university when I was there 10 years ago... While most people were balancing work and studying, they were still protesting 1970's style about the right to free education and the right to greater welfare benefits so they wouldn't have to work while doing their degrees in obscure social studies fields with limited career prospects.

(I lean left by the way, but as I grow older I am identifying more and more with the right. I find that somewhat alarming :D)

Northwestie

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Having a thoughtful, conservative voice in the government is strongly desired.  Unfortunately over the past 10-20 yrs the GOP has moved from thinking conservatism to downright batshit crazy. 

It's hard to take seriously a party that nominates Trump as its standard-bearer, and has a gaggle of clowns like Cruz, Rubio, and Cain, for instance, as runner-ups.

libertarian4321

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"Which of the main 2 political parties aligns best with mustacian ideologies?"

It's a pointless quibble, because both major parties are woefully fiscally irresponsible, and, hence, NON mustachian.

Luckily, since the Libertarian Party is on the ballot in every state, I don't have to choose between the two parties of fiscal irresponsibility. 

Northwestie

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"Which of the main 2 political parties aligns best with mustacian ideologies?"

It's a pointless quibble, because both major parties are woefully fiscally irresponsible, and, hence, NON mustachian.

Luckily, since the Libertarian Party is on the ballot in every state, I don't have to choose between the two parties of fiscal irresponsibility.

This from the Libertarian 2016 Presidential Election Platform.  Very responsible.

All persons are entitled to keep the fruits of their labor. We call for the repeal of the income tax, the abolishment of the Internal Revenue Service and all federal programs and services not required under the U.S. Constitution. We oppose any legal requirements forcing employers to serve as tax collectors. Government should not incur debt, which burdens future generations without their consent. We support the passage of a “Balanced Budget Amendment” to the U.S. Constitution, provided that the budget is balanced exclusively by cutting expenditures, and not by raising taxes.

Retirement planning is the responsibility of the individual, not the government. Libertarians would phase out the current government-sponsored Social Security system and transition to a private voluntary system. The proper and most effective source of help for the poor is the voluntary efforts of private groups and individuals. We believe members of society will become even more charitable and civil society will be strengthened as government reduces its activity in this realm

forummm

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"Which of the main 2 political parties aligns best with mustacian ideologies?"

It's a pointless quibble, because both major parties are woefully fiscally irresponsible, and, hence, NON mustachian.

Luckily, since the Libertarian Party is on the ballot in every state, I don't have to choose between the two parties of fiscal irresponsibility.

This from the Libertarian 2016 Presidential Election Platform.  Very responsible.

All persons are entitled to keep the fruits of their labor. We call for the repeal of the income tax, the abolishment of the Internal Revenue Service and all federal programs and services not required under the U.S. Constitution. We oppose any legal requirements forcing employers to serve as tax collectors. Government should not incur debt, which burdens future generations without their consent. We support the passage of a “Balanced Budget Amendment” to the U.S. Constitution, provided that the budget is balanced exclusively by cutting expenditures, and not by raising taxes.

Retirement planning is the responsibility of the individual, not the government. Libertarians would phase out the current government-sponsored Social Security system and transition to a private voluntary system. The proper and most effective source of help for the poor is the voluntary efforts of private groups and individuals. We believe members of society will become even more charitable and civil society will be strengthened as government reduces its activity in this realm

So if there is no more revenue collection, the only way to balance the budget is to immediately cease all spending (i.e. get rid of all government services) and default on the debt.

With no more military, I wonder which country will invade and take us over first. Or maybe the Mexican drug cartels?

Northwestie

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But according to this doctrine we'll be "liberated"

Fudge102

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"Which of the main 2 political parties aligns best with mustacian ideologies?"

It's a pointless quibble, because both major parties are woefully fiscally irresponsible, and, hence, NON mustachian.

Luckily, since the Libertarian Party is on the ballot in every state, I don't have to choose between the two parties of fiscal irresponsibility.

This from the Libertarian 2016 Presidential Election Platform.  Very responsible.

All persons are entitled to keep the fruits of their labor. We call for the repeal of the income tax, the abolishment of the Internal Revenue Service and all federal programs and services not required under the U.S. Constitution. We oppose any legal requirements forcing employers to serve as tax collectors. Government should not incur debt, which burdens future generations without their consent. We support the passage of a “Balanced Budget Amendment” to the U.S. Constitution, provided that the budget is balanced exclusively by cutting expenditures, and not by raising taxes.

Retirement planning is the responsibility of the individual, not the government. Libertarians would phase out the current government-sponsored Social Security system and transition to a private voluntary system. The proper and most effective source of help for the poor is the voluntary efforts of private groups and individuals. We believe members of society will become even more charitable and civil society will be strengthened as government reduces its activity in this realm

So if there is no more revenue collection, the only way to balance the budget is to immediately cease all spending (i.e. get rid of all government services) and default on the debt.

With no more military, I wonder which country will invade and take us over first. Or maybe the Mexican drug cartels?

Haha yeah, granted I will say that the Libertarian party is the most mustachian in that it understands that income, debt, and spending are all related.  You don't slash your income (taxes) and spending when you have debt to pay off.  You slash just the spending.  But the way the Libertarian movement is written is purely a downward direction if you are required to only lower budgets and not raise taxes.  Unfortunately it is the programs the Libertarians want to cut that provide the reasons I won't vote for them. 

electriceagle

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« Last Edit: November 08, 2016, 09:56:25 PM by electriceagle »

Tom Bri

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Income tax generates slightly less than 50% of fed gov revenue:

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/what-are-sources-revenue-federal-government-0

Given the Libertarian goals of eliminating many agencies, it looks possible to eliminate the income tax (if they really did cut programs).

The Repubs talk a good mustachian game, but rarely walk the walk, at the fed-gov level. At the state level, repub states generally have less debt than dem states, so that is a little closer to the ideal.

I don't see where dems are mustachian at all, in any way, though as noted above, some dem policies are good for the individual mustachian person.

Jrr85

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A policy that would be essentially worthless and/or incredibly expensive as you got older.

+1

Get cancer then go try and get a pre ACA "cheap" policy.



Well, yes, because then it's not insurance. It's basically a prepayment plan.

boarder42

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Gary Johnson likes fairtax just bc you eliminate income and the IRS doesn't mean you quit taxing. Eliminates a bloated organization in favor of a smaller org to just audit original merchandise sellers not everyone. And every mustachian should be in favor of sales tax over income tax.

Classical_Liberal

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Gary Johnson likes fairtax just bc you eliminate income and the IRS doesn't mean you quit taxing. Eliminates a bloated organization in favor of a smaller org to just audit original merchandise sellers not everyone. And every mustachian should be in favor of sales tax over income tax.

A pure mustachian, one who works maybe 7-10 years and then retires, would likely net receive more benefits from the federal gov't over a lifetime than they pay in taxes. 

SS time, please take almost 90% of your 35 year average income, even though you only worked for 10 years, that middle class guy who worked 40 years can subsidise you by only taking 32 percent!

Medicare?  Well, you didn't pay much, but sure, take it at no reduction in benefits!  Want cheap health insurance before?  Sure! take some free expanded medicaid or ACA tax credits, health care is cheap anyway.

Hobby income? earned income credit all around, we dont need it! 

Capital gains & dividends?  no you poor thing, you didn't have enough, we won't tax that... etc.

From an ideological standpoint I agree with a consumption tax, from a selfish standpoint, maybe things are good as they are.


the_gastropod

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At the state level, repub states generally have less debt than dem states, so that is a little closer to the ideal.

That is totally true. But it simplifies a pretty complex issue. Many of these republican "red" states with low debts happen to be top recipients of federal tax dollars. In other words, high tax states like New York, California, and Maryland effectively subsidize low-tax states like Mississippi,  Montana, and Tennessee. This allows these states to maintain low tax rates, and rely on government money to stay solvent.

Abe

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Gary Johnson likes fairtax just bc you eliminate income and the IRS doesn't mean you quit taxing. Eliminates a bloated organization in favor of a smaller org to just audit original merchandise sellers not everyone. And every mustachian should be in favor of sales tax over income tax.

I believe some Scandinavian countries have set tax rates without any deductions, etc. They get a letter or email from the government to confirm their income. If it's correct, then the government says "OK thanks" since they already know what the rate is, and thus exactly how much they owe. As long as the employer reports the income properly, there's really no bureaucracy involved.

kenaces

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https://youtu.be/MOwesWn3vU4

This is my objection to this poll - there needs to be a option to vote non of the above
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 08:51:32 PM by kenaces »

CmFtns

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https://youtu.be/MOwesWn3vU4

This is my objection to this poll - there needs to be a option to vote non of the above

You have 3 options... Democrat, Republican, or Don't Vote

These are basically the options we have in this country right now until someone breaks the 2 party system status quo

kenaces

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https://youtu.be/MOwesWn3vU4

This is my objection to this poll - there needs to be a option to vote non of the above

You have 3 options... Democrat, Republican, or Don't Vote

These are basically the options we have in this country right now until someone breaks the 2 party system status quo

I am still going to write in Richard Pryor :)