Author Topic: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?  (Read 8559 times)

former player

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #50 on: October 04, 2018, 11:25:05 PM »
Criminal actions are complicated. 

But call out culture seems to me more about accusers signaling their virtue than the accused or offense committed.  Offering forgiveness or even reasonable conditions to forgiveness is not an option if it might make you look less than virtuous inside your chosen hothouse admiration society.

It hasn’t gotten to the point where they’ll burn you at the stake. But you can almost see it from here.

"Accusers signalling their virtue"?  Don't you mean "victims stating their pain"?  And why should victims give a flying fuck about the perpetrator? 
(These are rhetorical questions, by the way, EricL.  Because the tone of your post is so completely tone deaf I think you need that stated directly.)

No actually.  I don't need you to restate it for me.  That's fucking rude and condescending.  I'm not talking about actual victims - unless it's those that wear their victimhood like a crown.  I'm talking about the accusers who do it on their behalf and the jump on the band wagon types.  Actual victims are often more forgiving to actual perpetrators trying to make amends than the "I have to signal my virtue because my entire identity is in question if I don't" set. 

Going OT, so OK to skip:
I will say that I used a right wing term because I honestly don't know another way to describe it.  At first I thought it was just a Facebook thing where you had to assert you were pro-diversity/pro-gay rights etc. just in case someone caught your feed for the first time and didn't know.  But I made some friends who are proudly "woke" as fuck and they virtue signal in their own conversation with their own set at least once a minute.  They mean well and they're genuinely good people.  It appears fear based and can't be a good thing.  And while I don't have as many conservative friends, I've noted that online they're prone to their own virtue signaling.  But the whole thing is perplexing as fuck.  Why do you have to repeatedly state your beliefs to your own friends and ideological fellow travelers?   Didn't you do it a long time ago?   I'm very careful interacting with them online for the same reason I don't kick in the front doors of friends who are gun nuts. 

Edit: PM me your virtue signals so we don't derail the threat.  If I get enough I'll start a new topic and we'll virtue signal the whole board.
Right.  I don't understand how you can say your "virtue signallers" are not the victims when you are talking about those virtue signallers not offering forgiveness - it would have to be only the victims who would offer forgiveness, not their allies.  So of course I think you are talking about actual victims when you use that phrase.

Why do people reinforce their views to each other?  Possibly to reinforce community in the face of threats to it?  Have you listened to the Republican senators taking turns at the microphone reinforcing each others views on the need to confirm Kavanaugh and the "injustice" of the accusations against him?  Repeatedly stating their views about how well Dr Ford has been treated, but that at the same time implying that she is a partisan party political liar?  Do please apply your judgements against them, the old white men in power who are determined to signal the virtue of their own community.

EricL

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #51 on: October 05, 2018, 12:53:51 AM »
Criminal actions are complicated. 

But call out culture seems to me more about accusers signaling their virtue than the accused or offense committed.  Offering forgiveness or even reasonable conditions to forgiveness is not an option if it might make you look less than virtuous inside your chosen hothouse admiration society.

It hasn’t gotten to the point where they’ll burn you at the stake. But you can almost see it from here.

"Accusers signalling their virtue"?  Don't you mean "victims stating their pain"?  And why should victims give a flying fuck about the perpetrator? 
(These are rhetorical questions, by the way, EricL.  Because the tone of your post is so completely tone deaf I think you need that stated directly.)

No actually.  I don't need you to restate it for me.  That's fucking rude and condescending.  I'm not talking about actual victims - unless it's those that wear their victimhood like a crown.  I'm talking about the accusers who do it on their behalf and the jump on the band wagon types.  Actual victims are often more forgiving to actual perpetrators trying to make amends than the "I have to signal my virtue because my entire identity is in question if I don't" set. 

Going OT, so OK to skip:
I will say that I used a right wing term because I honestly don't know another way to describe it.  At first I thought it was just a Facebook thing where you had to assert you were pro-diversity/pro-gay rights etc. just in case someone caught your feed for the first time and didn't know.  But I made some friends who are proudly "woke" as fuck and they virtue signal in their own conversation with their own set at least once a minute.  They mean well and they're genuinely good people.  It appears fear based and can't be a good thing.  And while I don't have as many conservative friends, I've noted that online they're prone to their own virtue signaling.  But the whole thing is perplexing as fuck.  Why do you have to repeatedly state your beliefs to your own friends and ideological fellow travelers?   Didn't you do it a long time ago?   I'm very careful interacting with them online for the same reason I don't kick in the front doors of friends who are gun nuts. 

Edit: PM me your virtue signals so we don't derail the threat.  If I get enough I'll start a new topic and we'll virtue signal the whole board.
Right.  I don't understand how you can say your "virtue signallers" are not the victims when you are talking about those virtue signallers not offering forgiveness - it would have to be only the victims who would offer forgiveness, not their allies.  So of course I think you are talking about actual victims when you use that phrase.

Why do people reinforce their views to each other?  Possibly to reinforce community in the face of threats to it?  Have you listened to the Republican senators taking turns at the microphone reinforcing each others views on the need to confirm Kavanaugh and the "injustice" of the accusations against him?  Repeatedly stating their views about how well Dr Ford has been treated, but that at the same time implying that she is a partisan party political liar?  Do please apply your judgements against them, the old white men in power who are determined to signal the virtue of their own community.

In the “good ol’ days” if you affirmed yourself a Republican, Democrat, Communist, Fascist you were OK until you said actually something implicitly or explicitly different. Like I noted, at both sides act the same online.  I just don’t know if conservatives do offline. I know liberals do. Now you’re  constantly re-affirmating online. Which means it’s fear based. So the allegiance is always suspect because of potential consequences. Much like Robespierre‘s “Society of Virtue”.  Say something incorrect or it’s the guillotine. Both sides do it at least online. Terror reigns and what you don’t want is a the result. It means that’s what you ultimately get. I’m not racist enough to bitch about what old white men say on a logical basis.  I do take issue with what they say if it doesn’t make sense logically.  And a shit load doesn’t.  But It’s getting to the point it’s only a valid point if some black, asian, trans, gay person says it. And according to some hierarchy people haven’t figured out yet.  I weep for where conservativism is.  But liberalism is near as bad if not worse. If you doubt me, say something conservative to your set.  If you dare....

former player

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #52 on: October 05, 2018, 01:39:35 AM »
EricL, I'm glad you've moved from a one-sided snark to acknowledging a perceived perception problem on both sides.

Villanelle

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #53 on: October 05, 2018, 02:40:14 AM »
This is a similar question to the one faced by many addicts in recovery.  They know in their heart they are done drinking (gmabling, shooting up, whatever-ing) and often grow frustrated that those around them, especially those most hurt by the addiction and resulting behaviors, are still cautious, skeptical, or even downright mistrusting.

The thing is, when you do the Bad Thing, you don't get to decide how others feel about it. They forgive and move on in their own time, in their own way.  Or maybe even not at all.

And part of doing Bad Stuff is living with the consequences.  Sometimes those consequences are irreversible, and that's not something the Bad-Doer can control.  So some people may never trust you again. Some people may never hire (or vote to confirm ;)) you.  Some people may never trust you with their car or in their house alone or with their kids or to keep a secret.  And so what?  You still have to move forward the same way.  if we are talking about addition, that means you still move forward in sobriety.  If people don't forgive you past Bad Acts, are you going to just throw up your hands and start drinking again, committing more Bad Acts because the first round can't just be erased?  If so, then you clearly don't deserve real forgiveness anyway because you haven't changed much or grown much or understood much about the implications of what you did.  And if you aren't, then you have to tolerate the fact that maybe some things you destroyed can't be undestroyed and while that's sad, once you've atoned and apologized and fixed yourself, you just have to live in this new world in which walks people who don't forgive you. 

And if we aren't talking about an addict, the same thing pretty much applies.  Many audiences no longer will pay to see your movies, and maybe that never changes.  Does that mean you go back to assaulting women or going on racist rants?  Because if you can't have your life back exactly as it was and exactly as you wanted it, then screw it--you might as well continue to be an assaulter or a rapist?  if so, then you don't deserve forgiveness or a restoration of anything. And if not, then you find a way to move forward in your new reality where you are no longer a working actor, comic, SCOTUS justice, politician, Youtube star, Instagram influencer.  You find a way to live--decently and respectfully and not-begrudingly--in the new world into which your own actions cast you. 

So, when is an apology enough?  It depends, but more importantly, it doesn't matter.   Do better, be better, and people will forgive and move on, or not.  But either way, you still need to do better and be better. 

chaskavitch

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #54 on: October 07, 2018, 08:41:51 AM »

I do hope as internet communication and social media becomes more ubiquitous, we will become better at being good people online, but also not holding the occasional regrettable statement or joke against someone 20+ years later.

However, a pattern of behavior (bullying), or physical misbehavior or crimes, including property damage, physical assault, sexual harassment and assault, etc I think are more serious and more indicative of character flaws. Consent is not that hard; many dudes manage to figure it out: https://twitter.com/behindyourback/status/1045864179171766272

I don't know what it would take for someone to make amends for these crimes and demonstrate a turnaround. But it would have to be in the form of actions as well as words. I would have a hard time believing Sir Patrick Stewart or President Jimmy Carter had assaulted women, given the activism and work they do against domestic violence and advocating for women's rights.

That twitter thread is a comforting read, thanks.

This is a little OT, but it's my thread, and I can't find another thread in which to post it, so...

I've apparently run into the problem that my husband just doesn't believe that this shit is nearly as big of a problem as people say it is.  I have no idea what to do about this.  I've personally (luckily and thankfully) never been assaulted, so I can't use personal experience as an example. 

He's falling more on the side of "people should be innocent until proven guilty, and there's no proof in a bunch of these cases" and "If you don't have to prove anything, women CAN just lie for [x reason] if they want to."  I've told him that according to multiple studies, statistically, only ~2-8% of rape accusations are proven false.  I told him about that case in Alaska - a guy offered to drop a woman off at her boyfriend's house, took her somewhere else, choked her until she passed out, masturbated on her, left her on the side of the road, was tried, CONFESSED, and received basically no sentence - and he actually said "Are you sure?  That sounds like something some reditt user made up, how would he not get any punishment?"  I had to look up the CNN story and read the entire thing to him, then bring up multiple multiple other examples of limited/nonexistent jail time or punishment in cases WITH EVIDENCE.  That lead to a "huh, that sounds like something is effed up in that court system.  Was there a mistrial or something?".  He's on occasion even said "well, some people just have really bad social skills and mis-read cues from other people, what about if that happens?  Do you just punish people for not learning quickly?" I'm like "YES, YES YOU DO, IF THEY TRY TO RAPE SOMEONE!"

Written down, this makes him look like a terrible skeeze.  He's not, and he'd never do anything like that himself, but I had no idea this is what his brain looked like.  It's kind of freaking me out.  I've looked around in the forums a little, but does anyone have any suggestions for how to continue these discussions somewhat civilly and actually get through to him?  I want to understand where this is coming from and how to combat it.  We've got a 2 year old son, and I DO NOT want any of this mindset getting passed on inadvertently.

Sorry this is full of caps shouting.  Like I said, I'm freaking out a little.

MarcherLady

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #55 on: October 07, 2018, 09:08:51 AM »
I think that many men just find it really hard to see a woman's perspective on this. Many of them can only do it after hearing or reading many women's accounts of their assaults, or even just our experiences of cat-calling, or walking alone at night. They have not had the the years of conditioning we have had in rape-prevention. "Be careful, don't go there, don't wear that, don't talk to him, don't be alone, watch your drink, look after your friends, don't lead someone on, be aware of strangers" and on and on and on. And, of course, women are even less comfortable discussing their assaults with men than they are with their female friends, so it's unlikely that he will hear many of those conversations.

I found this blog post a really powerful response to the 'but women make things up' argument, as well as including some pointers for the parents of sons.

Kris

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #56 on: October 07, 2018, 09:42:14 AM »

I do hope as internet communication and social media becomes more ubiquitous, we will become better at being good people online, but also not holding the occasional regrettable statement or joke against someone 20+ years later.

However, a pattern of behavior (bullying), or physical misbehavior or crimes, including property damage, physical assault, sexual harassment and assault, etc I think are more serious and more indicative of character flaws. Consent is not that hard; many dudes manage to figure it out: https://twitter.com/behindyourback/status/1045864179171766272

I don't know what it would take for someone to make amends for these crimes and demonstrate a turnaround. But it would have to be in the form of actions as well as words. I would have a hard time believing Sir Patrick Stewart or President Jimmy Carter had assaulted women, given the activism and work they do against domestic violence and advocating for women's rights.

That twitter thread is a comforting read, thanks.

This is a little OT, but it's my thread, and I can't find another thread in which to post it, so...

I've apparently run into the problem that my husband just doesn't believe that this shit is nearly as big of a problem as people say it is.  I have no idea what to do about this.  I've personally (luckily and thankfully) never been assaulted, so I can't use personal experience as an example. 

He's falling more on the side of "people should be innocent until proven guilty, and there's no proof in a bunch of these cases" and "If you don't have to prove anything, women CAN just lie for [x reason] if they want to."  I've told him that according to multiple studies, statistically, only ~2-8% of rape accusations are proven false.  I told him about that case in Alaska - a guy offered to drop a woman off at her boyfriend's house, took her somewhere else, choked her until she passed out, masturbated on her, left her on the side of the road, was tried, CONFESSED, and received basically no sentence - and he actually said "Are you sure?  That sounds like something some reditt user made up, how would he not get any punishment?"  I had to look up the CNN story and read the entire thing to him, then bring up multiple multiple other examples of limited/nonexistent jail time or punishment in cases WITH EVIDENCE.  That lead to a "huh, that sounds like something is effed up in that court system.  Was there a mistrial or something?".  He's on occasion even said "well, some people just have really bad social skills and mis-read cues from other people, what about if that happens?  Do you just punish people for not learning quickly?" I'm like "YES, YES YOU DO, IF THEY TRY TO RAPE SOMEONE!"

Written down, this makes him look like a terrible skeeze.  He's not, and he'd never do anything like that himself, but I had no idea this is what his brain looked like.  It's kind of freaking me out.  I've looked around in the forums a little, but does anyone have any suggestions for how to continue these discussions somewhat civilly and actually get through to him?  I want to understand where this is coming from and how to combat it.  We've got a 2 year old son, and I DO NOT want any of this mindset getting passed on inadvertently.

Sorry this is full of caps shouting.  Like I said, I'm freaking out a little.

I agree with MarcherLady, that men have just been socialized to discount and minimize women’s thoughts, experiences and opinions. It can be freaking infuriating — but then, when you try to tell a man how irritating it is to have them just casually doubt things you say, they focus more on your frustration rather than the reality of what they are doing. Because again, they have been socialized to think that our emotions prove that we aren’t thinking rationally (and that they basically have no emotions when they think).

And of course, because of this, they will likely listen to and be receptive to a man talking about this more easily than a woman.

(Which, fellas, is why you can be allies to us in this — because men don’t listen to us. But they might to you.)

So maybe have your husband read this.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/damon-young/men-just-dont-trust-women_b_6714280.html
« Last Edit: October 07, 2018, 09:53:04 AM by Kris »

maizeman

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #57 on: October 07, 2018, 10:05:38 AM »
Forgiveness is a different concept from "enough."

For actions which are crimes, if you are accused and convicted, sent to prison and serve your time, and then released, we generally consider that you have been punished "enough." That doesn't mean some (or many) doors won't still be closed to you, because people will judge your likelihood to commit bad actions to be higher based on your history of having done so in the past. But we generally don't seek to continue to punish ex-cons for the sake of punishment after they have served their time.

The ostracism which is the central punishment dished out by callout culture lacks a mechanism to decide when someone accused of abuse or misconduct has been punished enough. Pointing this out is not the same as saying people shouldn't be punished for misdeeds. One of the points made in that invisiblia podcast is that we're just starting to understand just how stringent a punishment being ostracized from your "tribe" can be,* in terms of the amount of perceived suffering it produces in the intended target, acting through the same neural pathways which handle experiences of physical pain, to the point that researchers can and do use tylenol to reduce the pain produced by social rejection experienced as part of phycological psychological studies. Since most of us (myself included) didn't think it was a particularly strong punishment, it seems like it would need to be applied for an extremely long time for even minor crimes. That may ultimately prove to be incorrect.

We certainly cannot, and should not, try to make societal decisions about when or if victims should forgive the people who harmed them. However, at the same time we should be seriously thinking about how we make societal decisions about how we decide the just amount of punishment in cases where the traditional legal system is not in play.

*Unfortunately, one consequence of this is that the current set of societal punishments being dished out has a much larger effect on people who see (or saw) themselves as belonging to the liberal democratic "tribe" than those who do not. While Al Franken and Ray Moore are both not US Senators, I'm guessing Franken is experiencing a significant ongoing punishment through ostracism, while Ray Moore is not having the same experience because he didn't belong to the tribe in the first place.

Kris

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #58 on: October 07, 2018, 01:16:09 PM »
Quote
I agree with MarcherLady, that men have just been socialized to discount and minimize women’s thoughts, experiences and opinions.

How?  Where were these men socialized this way?  In public schools?  From messages in the movies?  On network television?  Since you're asserting that men have been socialized to "discount and minimize women's thoughts, experiences and opinions," -- which includes all the men on this forum -- I'd like to believe you will have some explanation for where this pervasive socialization was implemented. 

Interested in hearing your thoughts.  Thanks.

You know what, Tom?

It turns out, I have had enough of explaining things to combative men lately. So, no, I have decided that it is not my job to explain this to you. In fact, I believe there are a number of awesome men on this forum who are allies of women who will understand and agree that male socialization tends to teach them to discount women’s voices. And there are likely lots of resources you can find by googling or doing an Amazon search.

My response was to Chaskavitch. Feel free to read the article I linked for her if you’d like.

Have a nice day.

sol

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #59 on: October 07, 2018, 01:25:54 PM »
How?  Where were these men socialized this way?  In public schools?  From messages in the movies?  On network television?  Since you're asserting that men have been socialized to "discount and minimize women's thoughts, experiences and opinions," -- which includes all the men on this forum -- I'd like to believe you will have some explanation for where this pervasive socialization was implemented. 

Interested in hearing your thoughts.  Thanks.

Don't take it personally, Tom.  People who are upset, rightfully or not, often lash out against entire groups as if they were a homogeneous whole, without thinking about how this sort of stereotyping is not very different from the type they're upset about.  They don't mean you.

Unless you're one of those, in which case they do mean you and so do I.

Trying to stand up for yourself in this context is entirely futile.  There is no possible defense.  Imagine how modern Germans feel about their country's history with starting world wars.  Every single time they advocate for the use of military force they have to tiptoe around this history, and if someone accuses them of warmongering they pretty much have to apologize no matter how justified the current situation is.  As a dude, you're in the same boat today.  You don't get to stand up for yourself without being labelled as part of the problem.   Life isn't fair, get used to it.

On the bright side you still get paid more than women do for the same work, on average, and apparently you can go back to sexually assaulting women when blackout drunk and as long as there are not other witnesses you can be safely assured of zero consequences for your crimes!  So it's not all bad!  Or maybe it is?

there are a number of awesome men on this forum who are allies of women who will understand and agree that male socialization tends to teach them to discount women’s voices.

Highlighting sexual inequality is fine, Kris, we just have to be careful about any statements that sound like "men do this" because it sounds like a personal attack to all men who don't do that.  For example, I would suggest rephrasing your initial comment from "men have just been socialized to..." to something less stereotyping, like "society typically socializes men to..." because that makes the same point without effectively telling someone who would otherwise be on your side "Hey you're man, and this is what you personally are doing wrong because you are man, no matter what you personally are doing, because all men do this."

Changing the phrasing makes a valid argument sound less accusatory, is more effective at changing minds because it doesn't put potential allies on the defensive, and I find that it helps reminds me that men are unwilling victims in these problems too.  If your son is inadvertenly socialized into a raging asshole, it's not because he was born that way and it's not an inherent fault of who he is, it's because that's the behaviors he was taught as a young man.  Ditto if your son is raised correctly.  We all live in a system that reinforces gender inequality, whether we like it or not, and we can all work to change it but we can't pretend we live apart from it.

I realize I'm sticking my neck out with this post.  I will not be surprised if some folks are angry with me.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2018, 02:11:45 PM by sol »

former player

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #60 on: October 07, 2018, 02:16:55 PM »
Here we go again.  We have to be careful not to hurt men's ickle little feelings, or they won't condescend to listen to us.  Riiiight.

Shortly after pages on this forum of men insisting that "mansplaining" is sexist because it less than complementary and has the word "man" in it.  (Exactly like "manspreading" is sexist, I suppose.)

sol

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #61 on: October 07, 2018, 02:21:06 PM »
Here we go again.  We have to be careful not to hurt men's ickle little feelings, or they won't condescend to listen to us.  Riiiight.

That seemed kind of condescending, didn't it?

You can choose to treat people any way that you like, but I generally try for "nicely" regardless of gender.  You don't have to be nice to men, or women, or gays, or republicans, but it might help you be a better person.


MarcherLady

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #62 on: October 07, 2018, 02:32:15 PM »
Perhaps we are sick and tired of the tone-policing of our complaints? Perhaps we think that allies should concentrate on fixing the crimes against us, rather than nit-picking at the terms we have used in calling out those crimes? Listen to women, hear women, read women, believe women. Stop telling us we are doing it wrong. Stop asking us to catalogue over and over again exactly what the issues are and start looking at your behaviour, and that of your colleagues and your friends and your leaders. Would you wanted to be treated the way you see women treated?  Another link, from the same author as my previous one




former player

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #63 on: October 07, 2018, 02:39:02 PM »
Here we go again.  We have to be careful not to hurt men's ickle little feelings, or they won't condescend to listen to us.  Riiiight.

That seemed kind of condescending, didn't it?

You can choose to treat people any way that you like, but I generally try for "nicely" regardless of gender.  You don't have to be nice to men, or women, or gays, or republicans, but it might help you be a better person.


I'm fighting fire with fire, sol dear.

Frankly, it has been clearly demonstrated on this forum in the last couple of weeks that we women can be as polite and accommodating and non-confrontational as possible on this forum and the patriarchical elements here will carry on as normal.

In real life, where a more conciliatory approach might make the difference in getting a real world gain, then I will employ a more conciliatory approach.  But to be told on the internet that I should moderate my voice in pushing back on sexism, on entitlement, on privilege?  Fuck.  That.

sol

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #64 on: October 07, 2018, 02:49:12 PM »
Perhaps we are sick and tired of the tone-policing of our complaints?

I'm not policing anyone's tone, I was explaining why I think Tom might have felt attacked.  You get to choose any tone you like, and so do I, but then we both have to accept that other people will react accordingly.

I'm fighting fire with fire, sol dear.

Okay.  I will continue to support your right to be heard, even if I disagree with the way you express yourself.

But to be told on the internet that I should moderate my voice in pushing back on sexism, on entitlement, on privilege?  Fuck.  That.

I'm not suggesting you moderate your voice, I'm suggesting that we all be cognizant of becoming the very things we oppose.  For example, if you object to the way that people sometimes generalize an entire group of people into a singular negative stereotype, then it's kind of undermining to that legitimate argument to do the exact same thing to a different group of people.  Even if you call it "fighting fire with fire" it's still gross.

former player

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #65 on: October 07, 2018, 03:00:47 PM »
Perhaps we are sick and tired of the tone-policing of our complaints?

I'm not policing anyone's tone, I was explaining why I think Tom might have felt attacked.  You get to choose any tone you like, and so do I, but then we both have to accept that other people will react accordingly.

I'm fighting fire with fire, sol dear.

Okay.  I will continue to support your right to be heard, even if I disagree with the way you express yourself.

But to be told on the internet that I should moderate my voice in pushing back on sexism, on entitlement, on privilege?  Fuck.  That.

I'm not suggesting you moderate your voice, I'm suggesting that we all be cognizant of becoming the very things we oppose.  For example, if you object to the way that people sometimes generalize an entire group of people into a singular negative stereotype, then it's kind of undermining to that legitimate argument to do the exact same thing to a different group of people.  Even if you call it "fighting fire with fire" it's still gross.

The sentence that started this off was a woman stating "men have just been socialized to discount and minimize women’s thoughts, experiences and opinions".  It was immediately challenged by a man, asking a woman to justify her statement, when if he had taken it seriously he could have gone off and done his own research and come back with a reasoned argument.  But when we push back against that man trying to take charge and make us subordinate to him, doing his research for him, presumably so he could then try to challenge it, you say (in effect) "oh, please don't push back, you might upset him".

So here you are, challenging the women who are pushing back against sexist presumptions but completely accepting and defending the man who is trying to put us in our place.  As I said, Fuck. That.

sol

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #66 on: October 07, 2018, 03:14:26 PM »
So here you are, challenging the women who are pushing back against sexist presumptions but completely accepting and defending the man who is trying to put us in our place.  As I said, Fuck. That.

I'm not challenging you or anyone else at all.  I'm not defending Tom, either.

I am, however, regretting trying to help.  As usual.

former player

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #67 on: October 07, 2018, 03:18:53 PM »
Maybe think about why it doesn't look like help?

Kris

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #68 on: October 07, 2018, 03:28:55 PM »
Maybe think about why it doesn't look like help?

+1

sol

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #69 on: October 07, 2018, 03:35:30 PM »
Maybe think about why it doesn't look like help?

Oh I totally see it.  Everyone is pissed right now, including me, because of the Kavanaugh nomination effectively reversing the past few years of social progress on sexual assault issues.  We feel shocked and hopeless because of it, just like we did when Trump won the election despite being an objectively terrible human being.

But I'm not sure that legitimate anger over flagrant abuses of power by one political party is a good reason for individual Americans who are on the same side to be cruel to each other.  Righteous indignation is supposed to be something you feel inside of yourself, not a justification for demeaning others.

If you want to be condescending while accusing men of being condescending, that is your right and you go right ahead.  If you want to stereotype men as sexist pigs because of the way they have historically stereotyped women as overly emotional, you go right ahead.  I'll be over here in the corner, quietly offering my person opinion on how best to accomplish change without being shitty about it.  Feel free to ignore me, or feel free to attack me.  I understand why you might feel justified in do so, even when it looks counterproductive. 

Kris

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #70 on: October 07, 2018, 03:44:28 PM »
Maybe think about why it doesn't look like help?

Oh I totally see it.  Everyone is pissed right now, including me, because of the Kavanaugh nomination effectively reversing the past few years of social progress on sexual assault issues.  We feel shocked and hopeless because of it, just like we did when Trump won the election despite being an objectively terrible human being.

But I'm not sure that legitimate anger over flagrant abuses of power by one political party is a good reason for individual Americans who are on the same side to be cruel to each other.  Righteous indignation is supposed to be something you feel inside of yourself, not a justification for demeaning others.

If you want to be condescending while accusing men of being condescending, that is your right and you go right ahead.  If you want to stereotype men as sexist pigs because of the way they have historically stereotyped women as overly emotional, you go right ahead.  I'll be over here in the corner, quietly offering my person opinion on how best to accomplish change without being shitty about it.  Feel free to ignore me, or feel free to attack me.  I understand why you might feel justified in do so, even when it looks counterproductive.

That’s not it.

gaja

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #71 on: October 07, 2018, 03:59:46 PM »
Perhaps we are sick and tired of the tone-policing of our complaints?

I'm not policing anyone's tone, I was explaining why I think Tom might have felt attacked.  You get to choose any tone you like, and so do I, but then we both have to accept that other people will react accordingly.

I'm fighting fire with fire, sol dear.

Okay.  I will continue to support your right to be heard, even if I disagree with the way you express yourself.

But to be told on the internet that I should moderate my voice in pushing back on sexism, on entitlement, on privilege?  Fuck.  That.

I'm not suggesting you moderate your voice, I'm suggesting that we all be cognizant of becoming the very things we oppose.  For example, if you object to the way that people sometimes generalize an entire group of people into a singular negative stereotype, then it's kind of undermining to that legitimate argument to do the exact same thing to a different group of people.  Even if you call it "fighting fire with fire" it's still gross.

I would normally agree with you, partly because pretending to be nice is a very efficient way to manipulate people. An older female colleague with long experience in getting old men to move in the correct direction used to call it “fur care”. Treat them like cats, never rub anyone against their fur, and you will get your way.

But you know what? Even I am getting sick of the “not all men” charade. Because by now, it is getting clear that the good men understand very well that the complaints are not about them. The only reason I can see to yell “not all men” into a conversation like this, is to derail it. And preferably change the topic to how nice guys are.

I never fight fire with fire. Fighting has never gotten anyone to change their mind*. Habermas’ rules of dialogue is the only way to go, if that is your goal. But part of Habermas is to interpret what your opponent is saying in a constructive way. “Not all men” is as far away from that as one can possibly get. And that is the frustration people are expressing above; A true dialogue can’t be one sided. Both parties have to be wanting to understand the other side. Until now, in the public discussions, women have been tasked with keeping the dialogue civil and constructive, stroking the pelt the right way, always modulating all arguments extremely carefully, while interpreting the counterparts as constructively as possible. Dr. Ford’s testimony vs Mr. Kavanaugh’s testimonies were an extreme example. And a lot of women are fed up weighing every word.

So, no; in this case, it is up to men to mentally add the modulators “some”, “most”, and “many”, while they try to listen for what the women are trying to say.



*oh, I can yell at people in my life - but only people like my OH and my closest colleague, who are able to sort of frustration from content, and who go into the heated discussions because they genuinely want to know my opinion.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2018, 04:02:53 PM by gaja »

sol

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #72 on: October 07, 2018, 04:27:50 PM »
The only reason I can see to yell “not all men” into a conversation like this, is to derail it.

I did not yell.  I have no desire to derail.  This started with me telling Tom to cool it, and while I was posting it Kris chimed in with another attack on Tom and I offered my take on why that attack seemed counterproductive.  I am not the patriarchy and my opinion is not law.  Feel free to ignore me.

Quote
I never fight fire with fire. Fighting has never gotten anyone to change their mind*. Habermas’ rules of dialogue is the only way to go, if that is your goal. But part of Habermas is to interpret what your opponent is saying in a constructive way. “Not all men” is as far away from that as one can possibly get.

I have worked hard to be calm and civil in this discussion, and to offer what I thought were better ways to make good arguments.  I have been uniformly attacked for this, with some anger.  I'm angry too, but I try not to attack people because of it.

Is there irony in your critique?  Are you are characterizing my posts here as being insufficiently understanding of an opposing viewpoint, while I was trying to encourage people to consider the perspective of an opposing viewpoint?

Quote
And a lot of women are fed up weighing every word.

And understandably so, but that doesn't mean they (or anyone else) gets to stop.  You can't just opt to be a huge dick because you're tired of being nice.  Are we seriously suggesting that the way to fix these problems is for women to start acting like men?

My wife is about to pull the plug on the computer.  She thinks that the content of my posts here is now totally irrelevant, and there is nothing I can say that will not infuriate people because of my identity as a straight white male.  I'd like to believe that content still matters, but like so many of these discussions I suspect I am no longer welcome here no matter what I have to say.

Kris

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #73 on: October 07, 2018, 04:31:22 PM »
The only reason I can see to yell “not all men” into a conversation like this, is to derail it.

I did not yell.  I have no desire to derail.  This started with me telling Tom to cool it, and while I was posting it Kris chimed in with another attack on Tom and I offered my take on why that attack seemed counterproductive.  I am not the patriarchy and my opinion is not law.  Feel free to ignore me.

Quote
I never fight fire with fire. Fighting has never gotten anyone to change their mind*. Habermas’ rules of dialogue is the only way to go, if that is your goal. But part of Habermas is to interpret what your opponent is saying in a constructive way. “Not all men” is as far away from that as one can possibly get.

I have worked hard to be calm and civil in this discussion, and to offer what I thought were better ways to make good arguments.  I have been uniformly attacked for this, with some anger.  I'm angry too, but I try not to attack people because of it.

Is there irony in your critique?  Are you are characterizing my posts here as being insufficiently understanding of an opposing viewpoint, while I was trying to encourage people to consider the perspective of an opposing viewpoint?

Quote
And a lot of women are fed up weighing every word.

And understandably so, but that doesn't mean they (or anyone else) gets to stop.  You can't just opt to be a huge dick because you're tired of being nice.  Are we seriously suggesting that the way to fix these problems is for women to start acting like men?

My wife is about to pull the plug on the computer.  She thinks that the content of my posts here is now totally irrelevant, and there is nothing I can say that will not infuriate people because of my identity as a straight white male.  I'd like to believe that content still matters, but like so many of these discussions I suspect I am no longer welcome here no matter what I have to say.

Sol,

There was neither an “attack” or “another attack.”

I responded to Tom exactly once.

It was a response to his expectation that I explain myself to him.

I declined.

“Attack” is bullshit. “Another attack” is bullshit.


gaja

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #74 on: October 07, 2018, 04:58:35 PM »
The only reason I can see to yell “not all men” into a conversation like this, is to derail it.

I did not yell.  I have no desire to derail.  This started with me telling Tom to cool it, and while I was posting it Kris chimed in with another attack on Tom and I offered my take on why that attack seemed counterproductive.  I am not the patriarchy and my opinion is not law.  Feel free to ignore me.

Quote
I never fight fire with fire. Fighting has never gotten anyone to change their mind*. Habermas’ rules of dialogue is the only way to go, if that is your goal. But part of Habermas is to interpret what your opponent is saying in a constructive way. “Not all men” is as far away from that as one can possibly get.

I have worked hard to be calm and civil in this discussion, and to offer what I thought were better ways to make good arguments.  I have been uniformly attacked for this, with some anger.  I'm angry too, but I try not to attack people because of it.

Is there irony in your critique?  Are you are characterizing my posts here as being insufficiently understanding of an opposing viewpoint, while I was trying to encourage people to consider the perspective of an opposing viewpoint?

Quote
And a lot of women are fed up weighing every word.

And understandably so, but that doesn't mean they (or anyone else) gets to stop.  You can't just opt to be a huge dick because you're tired of being nice.  Are we seriously suggesting that the way to fix these problems is for women to start acting like men?

My wife is about to pull the plug on the computer.  She thinks that the content of my posts here is now totally irrelevant, and there is nothing I can say that will not infuriate people because of my identity as a straight white male.  I'd like to believe that content still matters, but like so many of these discussions I suspect I am no longer welcome here no matter what I have to say.

Never claimed you were the one saying/yelling “not all men”. No irony either. Simply trying to explain where the frustration comes from, and why your (honest and decent) efforts to mediate, will fail. Dialogue with different types of stakeholders, from different parts of the society, anchoring processes, and the psychological processes needed to change peoples minds, are some of my major fields of interest (and work). Unfortunately, English is my fourth language, so it is not always easy to explain clearly what I mean.

But I honestly think there sometimes has to be a line in the sand. It is not about becoming a dick/changing to male vocabulary. If I’m talking climate change with sceptics, and they pull out the “scientists out to get money” it is usually time to wrap up my efforts to have a constructive dialogue. The same goes for vaccines and autism. “Not all men” is another of these markers for me.

Caroline PF

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #75 on: October 07, 2018, 05:07:11 PM »
I agree with MarcherLady, that men have just been socialized to discount and minimize women’s thoughts, experiences and opinions.

It's not just men. It's all of society, women included. Women are exposed to the same toxic idea that men's thoughts and opinions are more trustworthy than a women's. We are all more likely to believe a man over a woman because of what society has taught all of us from birth. We are also more likely to believe a white person over a person of color.

This idea and how it influences us is very subconscious. And of course, the penetrance of the idea is variable. On average, the penetrance is less in women, because we have personal examples of being impacted by it, and thus recognizing the idea as crap. But there are still plenty of women who have drunk the kool-aid, just like men. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flIM3AUyQ3A (the panel of republican women defending K)

The underlying idea is this: "Men are better than women". And this idea is repeated over and over in all of society until you just internalize it as at least somewhat true. I'll give you several examples of where you might see it.

Entertainment is full of stories in which women are portrayed as unreliable, or too emotional. And so many stories are about men, and from a man's perspective. The implicit message is that men and men's lives are more important.

On TV: look at news shows. And notice how often a woman gets interrupted. When she does, she usually stops talking, and waits until she gets a chance to speak again. Men are interrupted less frequently, and when they are, they usually pick up their volume and keep speaking. The implicit message is that men's voices are more important.

In real life: pink and purple are girl's colors. Blue is for boys. If a boy likes pink or purple, it's okay, up to a certain age, usually when they start school, but then they have to stop using it. On the other hand, if a girl likes blue, she can use it her entire life. She's never told to stop using it. The implicit message here is that boys/men are better than girls/women. If a girl wants to be or do something coded as male, that's okay, because she is improving herself. But for a boy to want to do or be something coded as female, that's a step in the wrong direction, and must be corrected.

Sure, there are exceptions to all these examples, like eddys in a stream, momentarily moving the water upstream. But the overall course, is water moves downstream. And we are all exposed to the message that men are better than women in so many tiny ways over our whole lives.

Society spreads the message, and society is made up of all of us. Society won't change until most of us change. And the first step in that change is knowledge that the problem exists.

EricL

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #76 on: October 07, 2018, 07:09:31 PM »
Modern dialogue as engineered by certain feminists seems to presuppose that women are universally ignored and naturally right.  The former I see a lot of.  The latter I have serious issues with - if only because women disagree with each other on a lot of things.  The end result is a often dialogue that looks like this:

Male poster: "You may be wrong about..."

Female poster: "Don't talk down to me."

Male poster: "I just want to explain..."

Female poster: "You're being condescending..."

Male poster: "I'm trying to be polite, but please recognize..."

Female poster: "Don't mansplain at me!"

Male poster: "I do strongly agree with you on..."

Female poster: "Well it's about time!  Will you deign to mansplain to me something I already know - again? /s"

Male poster: "Can't disagree, can't argue, can't even AGREE - fuck off!"

Female poster: "No fuck you!  I knew polite dialogue was useless!"

I look forward with great anticipation what this, combined traditional dismissive male attitudes, will do to improve things.

gaja

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #77 on: October 08, 2018, 12:43:00 AM »
@EricL
After setting up all these nice strawmen - how did you imagine the rest of the discussion here (which would include other people than your imaginary male hero and female villain) would go? Did you expect someone to leap to your help, to de-escalate the discussion, and kindly say how much they understand your frustration, with a polite "but, maybe you could please understand that some women are angry because they have been treated badly by men who are not you"? That would of course get them back into the traditional role of modulating and tiptoeing around the male, something that not many women are willing to do anymore.

Or did you expect someone to confirm your believes by getting angry and yelling obcenities at you? That is also unlikely, since we have seen texts like this so many times before. You might get a tired "fuck you", before people move on. Is that a goal?

TLDR; Do you see any way to get a constructive discussion with basis in your post?

Kyle Schuant

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #78 on: October 08, 2018, 03:22:36 AM »
Kavanagh hasn't apologised, so I'm not sure how he's relevant.

Villanelle

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #79 on: October 08, 2018, 03:54:05 AM »
Caroline covered much of it very well.

Yes, it is all men.  Or at least all men raised in Western Society.  And frankly, it's all or nearly all women too.  If that makes you [global you] feel attacked, well... it's an uncomfortable truth.  But denying it doesn't allow us to make any progress.  And of course there are plenty of those who will deny it.  It's hard to see ugly things about ourselves and our society, especially if we are sitting in a position where those ugly truths don't really negatively affect our own existence in a clear way.  A similar thing is true about racism.  I'm pretty damn caucasian so racism doesn't hurt me in my daily existence.  In fact, it probably helps me, but in ways that I'm not really aware.  I can deny this.  I can say that most people have no racist preconceptions, that racism is a problem only for a minority (ha!) of people--the open, ugly, fervent, hate-filled Racists (with a capitol R).  Or I can admit that because I have been raised and socialized in a society that does have a lot of race issues, some of that is surely inherent in my thinking.  Once I admit it, then I can be aware of it and work to counteract it. 

These things are everywhere.  Our workplaces, our entertainment, our literature, or coffee shop conversations, our first dates and 10th dates and marriage ceremonies, our courthouses and police stations, our kitchens, our bedrooms, our school houses. 

So actually it is all men (and women).  That doesn't mean all men hate women or are rapists or assailants or frothing misogynists or that they are all disrespectful and contemptuous.  But yes, sorry to say, there is almost zero chance that there aren't some preconceived notions about women vs men deep in all of us.  And when we deny that because we assume that means we are hateful bigots and we know in our hearts that we aren't that awful, extreme thing, the problem doesn't get any better.  And then we go out and buy pink dolls for our nieces and footballs and lego sets for our nephews, or we think that candidate A just somehow seems like a better fit for the Position of Power and Authority of [female] candidate B, though we can't quite put our finger on why.  Or we raise an eyebrow at a woman getting drunk in public and laugh in a friendly, amused way at a man doing the same.  And then yes, we are very much a part of the problem.  That's what your denial does--it makes you part of the problem. 

EricL

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #80 on: October 08, 2018, 09:06:00 AM »
@EricL
After setting up all these nice strawmen - how did you imagine the rest of the discussion here (which would include other people than your imaginary male hero and female villain) would go? Did you expect someone to leap to your help, to de-escalate the discussion, and kindly say how much they understand your frustration, with a polite "but, maybe you could please understand that some women are angry because they have been treated badly by men who are not you"? That would of course get them back into the traditional role of modulating and tiptoeing around the male, something that not many women are willing to do anymore.

Or did you expect someone to confirm your believes by getting angry and yelling obcenities at you? That is also unlikely, since we have seen texts like this so many times before. You might get a tired "fuck you", before people move on. Is that a goal?

TLDR; Do you see any way to get a constructive discussion with basis in your post?

The only thing imaginary in my dialogue example was that either party was a villain or a hero. 

dustinst22

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #81 on: October 08, 2018, 10:15:23 AM »

My wife is about to pull the plug on the computer.  She thinks that the content of my posts here is now totally irrelevant, and there is nothing I can say that will not infuriate people because of my identity as a straight white male.  I'd like to believe that content still matters, but like so many of these discussions I suspect I am no longer welcome here no matter what I have to say.

Now you know how some rational moderates or conservatives feel trying to discuss a topic with the hard left.  This is why we have the intellectual dark web.  Identity politics is a scary thing.  The leftist notion that your opinion is valuable in proportion to what minority group you belong to.  Diversity of skin color, sex, and sexual preference are celebrated rather than diversity of ideas.  Crazy stuff.  The saying that comes from the left is "stay in your lane" if you're expressing an opinion but don't belong to the right group.  Leftists are driving away rational intelligent liberals because of this attitude.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 12:39:55 PM by dustinst22 »

merula

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #82 on: October 08, 2018, 12:23:59 PM »
Now you know how some rational moderates or conservatives feel trying to discuss a topic with the hard left.  This is why we have the intellectual dark web.  Identity politics is a scary thing.  The leftist notion that your opinion is valuable in proportion to what minority group you belong to.  Diversity of skin color and sex is celebrated rather than diversity of ideas.  Crazy stuff.  The saying that comes from the left is "stay in your lane" if you're expressing an opinion but don't belong to the right group.  Leftists are driving away rational intelligent liberals because of this attitude.

Hey, I hear you. I have also had the experience of having unpopular ideas within groups of people with whom I'm generally in agreement politically. (You should hear my rant about the importance of corporate personhood; it's been finely crafted over many years.)

I do think there's nuance about "value of opinions in proportion to minority status" though. I have seen this concepts horribly misused by folks on both extremes, but I think that there's a core of truth that reasonable people can agree on: experience and expertise.

To take an example I think folks on this board will relate to, let's look at opinions on whether FIRE is possible. Most people, including financial planners, will say that it's not possible. Risk, healthcare, long-term interest rates, "productivity", etc. etc.

If a person who has achieved FIRE says that FIRE is possible and here's how, and a person who hasn't achieved FIRE says it's not possible and here's why, most people will say that the former's experience grants them expertise on the subject, and FIRE is possible. The person who says FIRE isn't possible may have good points, and they can talk through what those are and how they can be addressed, but fundamentally the FIRE-disbeliever doesn't have the expertise in the argument.

As a white person, I have no experience with how being a person of color impacts day-to-day life. Race doesn't impact my day, most of the time. So if we're talking about the impact of race on X, I have less personal experience than a person of color. Their opinion is not more valuable than mine, but their experience is more valuable to the topic at hand.

Now, has that core idea been warped and mutated? Sure, like any other. I don't think anyone can be blamed for the people who agree with them.

dustinst22

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #83 on: October 08, 2018, 12:52:34 PM »
Absolutely, 100% agree.  So let's celebrate the diversity of ideas and experience rather than the superficialities of skin color, gender, and sexual preference.  Focusing on these superficialities doesn't help the battle against discrimination in my view.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 12:56:10 PM by dustinst22 »

mm1970

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #84 on: October 08, 2018, 01:35:55 PM »
Quote
I agree with MarcherLady, that men have just been socialized to discount and minimize women’s thoughts, experiences and opinions.

How?  Where were these men socialized this way?  In public schools?  From messages in the movies?  On network television?  Since you're asserting that men have been socialized to "discount and minimize women's thoughts, experiences and opinions," -- which includes all the men on this forum -- I'd like to believe you will have some explanation for where this pervasive socialization was implemented. 

Interested in hearing your thoughts.  Thanks.

You know what, Tom?

It turns out, I have had enough of explaining things to combative men lately. So, no, I have decided that it is not my job to explain this to you. In fact, I believe there are a number of awesome men on this forum who are allies of women who will understand and agree that male socialization tends to teach them to discount women’s voices. And there are likely lots of resources you can find by googling or doing an Amazon search.

My response was to Chaskavitch. Feel free to read the article I linked for her if you’d like.

Have a nice day.
I just wanted to +1 here.

I haven't been participating much - too stressful, really.  But I have been reading many of these threads, and others around the interwebs, and it makes me weary.

I'm finding a lot of argumentative, combative men here and elsewhere.  And they want to put the onus on YOU to "prove it" or, whatever.  When: Google works the world over.

Now, why don't they want to Google?  Because they really don't want the answer.  They really don't want to read anything that doesn't agree with their world view (this isn't just combative men - it's a lot of people, including many of my own female family members "oh that poor man").

And if they did happen to come across a study or an article that disagreed with their world view, they would discount it immediately.

Unfortunately, I suspect most people are like this.  Because middle ground, and nuance, are hard.  But it is wearying, and I finally have given up because it's just. not. worth. it.  On a plus note, all this strife has turned my Facebook relaxation time into rage-cleaning my house.  Not enough cute kids and puppies, too much "yay Trump", and "fuck you libtards".  Okay, buh bye.

merula

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #85 on: October 08, 2018, 01:37:39 PM »
Absolutely, 100% agree.  So let's celebrate the diversity of ideas and experience rather than the superficialities of skin color, gender, and sexual preference.  Focusing on these superficialities doesn't help the battle against discrimination in my view.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. My point was that race, gender, etc. can be a pretty key part of our experiences and ideas. I don't think they're superficial at all.

sol

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #86 on: October 08, 2018, 01:48:30 PM »
Okay, buh bye.

Yea, I feel the exact same way.  I'm done trying to be an advocate.  The final straw for me wasn't the angry personal messages or the misconstrued arguments, it when I was compared to a climate change denier and anti-vaxer.  I'm on your side!  Telling your allies that they are your enemies is truly misguided. 

I am clearly not welcome in this camp, and so will not be visiting any more.  You can all solve the world's gender relation problems without me.  I'm finished here, driven away by the angry responses from the very people I was trying to support.  You can all celebrate your success in changing my mind, though I suspect you have not changed it in the way you had hoped.

former player

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #87 on: October 08, 2018, 02:13:54 PM »
Okay, buh bye.

Yea, I feel the exact same way.  I'm done trying to be an advocate.  The final straw for me wasn't the angry personal messages or the misconstrued arguments, it when I was compared to a climate change denier and anti-vaxer.  I'm on your side!  Telling your allies that they are your enemies is truly misguided. 

I am clearly not welcome in this camp, and so will not be visiting any more.  You can all solve the world's gender relation problems without me.  I'm finished here, driven away by the angry responses from the very people I was trying to support.  You can all celebrate your success in changing my mind, though I suspect you have not changed it in the way you had hoped.
I've no idea about any personal messages, and I'm not seeing the accusations of denying climate change and anti-vaxxing.  Are they different threads?

galliver

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #88 on: October 08, 2018, 02:30:31 PM »

I do hope as internet communication and social media becomes more ubiquitous, we will become better at being good people online, but also not holding the occasional regrettable statement or joke against someone 20+ years later.

However, a pattern of behavior (bullying), or physical misbehavior or crimes, including property damage, physical assault, sexual harassment and assault, etc I think are more serious and more indicative of character flaws. Consent is not that hard; many dudes manage to figure it out: https://twitter.com/behindyourback/status/1045864179171766272

I don't know what it would take for someone to make amends for these crimes and demonstrate a turnaround. But it would have to be in the form of actions as well as words. I would have a hard time believing Sir Patrick Stewart or President Jimmy Carter had assaulted women, given the activism and work they do against domestic violence and advocating for women's rights.

That twitter thread is a comforting read, thanks.

This is a little OT, but it's my thread, and I can't find another thread in which to post it, so...

I've apparently run into the problem that my husband just doesn't believe that this shit is nearly as big of a problem as people say it is.  I have no idea what to do about this.  I've personally (luckily and thankfully) never been assaulted, so I can't use personal experience as an example. 

He's falling more on the side of "people should be innocent until proven guilty, and there's no proof in a bunch of these cases" and "If you don't have to prove anything, women CAN just lie for [x reason] if they want to."  I've told him that according to multiple studies, statistically, only ~2-8% of rape accusations are proven false.  I told him about that case in Alaska - a guy offered to drop a woman off at her boyfriend's house, took her somewhere else, choked her until she passed out, masturbated on her, left her on the side of the road, was tried, CONFESSED, and received basically no sentence - and he actually said "Are you sure?  That sounds like something some reditt user made up, how would he not get any punishment?"  I had to look up the CNN story and read the entire thing to him, then bring up multiple multiple other examples of limited/nonexistent jail time or punishment in cases WITH EVIDENCE.  That lead to a "huh, that sounds like something is effed up in that court system.  Was there a mistrial or something?".  He's on occasion even said "well, some people just have really bad social skills and mis-read cues from other people, what about if that happens?  Do you just punish people for not learning quickly?" I'm like "YES, YES YOU DO, IF THEY TRY TO RAPE SOMEONE!"

Written down, this makes him look like a terrible skeeze.  He's not, and he'd never do anything like that himself, but I had no idea this is what his brain looked like.  It's kind of freaking me out.  I've looked around in the forums a little, but does anyone have any suggestions for how to continue these discussions somewhat civilly and actually get through to him?  I want to understand where this is coming from and how to combat it.  We've got a 2 year old son, and I DO NOT want any of this mindset getting passed on inadvertently.

Sorry this is full of caps shouting.  Like I said, I'm freaking out a little.

Ignoring what's going on above because I don't think I can contribute without breaking forum guidelines 0:-)

I think another resource you could introduce your husband to is http://whenwomenrefuse.tumblr.com/ which collects news stories of men reacting violently to being turned down. I think it demonstrates how pervasive this behavior, this male entitlement to female attention/affect/sex/etc is, below the level of the national news. We all hear about the Big Stories, the Brock Turners and Brett Kavanaughs...but this happens to regular people in regular neighborhoods much more frequently in ways that don't necessarily ever make national news.

I still don't think one conversation, one article, one website will convince him of how pervasive and common this behavior is. I think the only way to keep going on opening his eyes is to keep bringing these stories up when you see or hear them...for example, there's also this rage-inducing example: https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/20/us/texas-doctor-sexual-assault-probation/index.html . I think it's hard to see these stories over and over again and not feel that undercurrent of social norms that is driving them...

And on the flip side, maybe bring up things people do that help...for example, I thought this was pretty powerful: https://twitter.com/adigoesswimming/status/998227660437417985?lang=en . And it doesn't have to be boy/girl, man/woman, related to sex or romance...respecting boundaries that others set in their life is generally good practice. It's difficult and complicated, for sure: I remember seeing a story about how someone was very depressed and their friends organized to come help them unpack and move into their apartment. In retrospect they saw it as a great gift, but you could also see how it could feel like a huge violation. So...tread carefully, and even more carefully if someone's body rather than their apartment are at risk of being violated.

PS I think it's totally possible for good guys (or people generally) to have adopted a few poor habits/behaviors here and there. My bf *does* believe in the problematic and pervasive nature of sexual harrassment/assault and how it's treated both in the public eye and in the justice system. However, there are some dynamics we have one-on-one, especially when we're tired/frustrated...ok, arguing, that make me relate to the Huff Po "Men Just Don't Believe Women" article. He's been willing to work on it, but changing anyone's mind and habits is always a slow process. (I'll also add that I've had unproductive behaviors as well and the change runs both ways.) Basically, I don't think I'd be super concerned that he's been a Terrible Person all along...take a "growth mindset" about the whole thing and try to expose him to your worldview and hopefully, he is a good dude under the socially acquired biases and will eventually come around.

FrugalToque

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #89 on: October 09, 2018, 06:32:48 AM »
I believe that "former player" has been socialized to discount and minimize men’s thoughts, experiences and opinions. 

Here is my supporting evidence for making that bold assertion, her own comment:

Here we go again.  We have to be careful not to hurt men's ickle little feelings, or they won't condescend to listen to us.  Riiiight.

Shortly after pages on this forum of men insisting that "mansplaining" is sexist because it less than complementary and has the word "man" in it.  (Exactly like "manspreading" is sexist, I suppose.)

Essentially, when men say they are offended by something, Former Player minimizes their thoughts, experiences and opinions.

To be clear, I don't believe all women have been socialized this way; that would be a silly generalization to make since women are as different and varied as men are.  But “former player”?  Absolutely, based on their comments on this forum.

If you need more supporting evidence, you can pull Former Player's entire comment history and see for yourself.  It’s very sad. I wouldn’t be surprised if Former Player were a paid staffer for the Trump campaign because they are creating new Trump voters every time they demonize men.  Trump would LOVE for gender to be a wedge issue in this election.  Not the death of the middle class, or healthcare, or the environment, or the rule of law — but gender. Former Player: Every time you demonize men, you advance Trump’s agenda.  Did you not know that? 

P.S. As you can see, I just made an assertion similar to the assertion that Kris made upthread, but I didn’t make it about an entire gender class, and I actually provided evidence for my assertion.  I didn’t just belittle people for asking for evidence; I provided it.  Even still, I don’t think it will be long before a moderator is here to warn me/ban me. 

Frugal Toque, where are you?  Come on down.

To be perfectly honest, calling on me in this situation might not work out the way you're hoping.

a)  Men are clearly and definitely socialized to discount the voices and opinions of women.  There are countless studies showing how, just in common, business conversations, women get interrupted more than men.  Women's ideas are ignored until they're repeated by men (and then the men get credit).  Women must carefully restrain their emotions lest they get called hysterical.  When I went to school, teachers were still telling girls, to their faces, that they should stick to languages because their brains weren't wired for math.

So, pretending that each woman you come across has to give you specific examples of exact places and times where men are socialized to treat women as less-than-men?  That comes across as pretty over the top for anyone raised in one of the many societies and cultures we have on this particular planet.

b)  There are different meanings of "offense" here.
One, women are being ignored their entire lives and condemned as hysterical when they get angry about it.
Two, men are upset because women are announcing that they are tired of men treating them this way.

Those are actually very different levels and I'm not going to treat them as equally offensive.  Yes, there is a minor offense of saying "Men are socialized to do x", in that it sweeps all men into that group.  But it's not the same as, "Women get hysterical", "Women can't do math", or "She was wearing a short skirt, what did she expect?"  You can't put all those things into one category.

"Men are afraid women will laugh at them.  Women are afraid men will kill them."

I get it, though.  I used to think like you, when I was about 17.  When the Take Back the Night marchers would randomly point their fingers at non-rapists like me and shout out, "Don't you know that No Means No!?".  But I've grown up and learned to let that go.  I've heard stories from sexual assault survivors, of students subject to pervy elementary school teachers, and realized that their existence is constant low-grade fear with random spikes of high-grade terror, and that their frustrated outbursts with people who just don't get it are not a good reason to abandon trying to make things right.

Toque.

FIPurpose

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #90 on: October 09, 2018, 07:15:33 AM »
I think our society is quite forgiving. We have many companies that are completely willing to hire ex-convicts:

http://www.jailtojob.com/companies-hire-felons.html

11 states have completely banned private companies from asking about past convictions on job applications.

Even a state like Florida has an amendment on the ballot this year that will give most ex-cons their vote back without having to go through their current ridiculous process.

Are things perfect? No. That's life. We can only make progress one step at a time.


As for the highest levels of government, that's tough to say. A big problem is the large number of people who go from nothing to being a political leader. Voters need to respect building up a lifetime of trust instead of voting in people from the bottom straight to the top. Governors need to be either mayors or legislators first. Presidents need to have some relevant experience. Even House members should make sure to learn and practice in their own state first before going for a federal position.

I can think of several people off the top of my head from both parties that unfortunately match this description. If they were an ex-con, but they proved themselves in a series of positions involving public money and trust, then yeah I think they can be forgiven.

If they never went to jail for something they did, and their job is to send other people to jail, I think that is a level of hypocrisy that we can't have in our justice system.

former player

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #91 on: October 09, 2018, 07:18:32 AM »
Thanks, Toque.

I believe that "former player" has been socialized to discount and minimize men’s thoughts, experiences and opinions. 

Here is my supporting evidence for making that bold assertion, her own comment:

Here we go again.  We have to be careful not to hurt men's ickle little feelings, or they won't condescend to listen to us.  Riiiight.

Shortly after pages on this forum of men insisting that "mansplaining" is sexist because it less than complementary and has the word "man" in it.  (Exactly like "manspreading" is sexist, I suppose.)

Essentially, when men say they are offended by something, Former Player minimizes their thoughts, experiences and opinions.

To be clear, I don't believe all women have been socialized this way; that would be a silly generalization to make since women are as different and varied as men are.  But “former player”?  Absolutely, based on their comments on this forum.

If you need more supporting evidence, you can pull Former Player's entire comment history and see for yourself.  It’s very sad. I wouldn’t be surprised if Former Player were a paid staffer for the Trump campaign because they are creating new Trump voters every time they demonize men.  Trump would LOVE for gender to be a wedge issue in this election.  Not the death of the middle class, or healthcare, or the environment, or the rule of law — but gender. Former Player: Every time you demonize men, you advance Trump’s agenda.  Did you not know that? 

P.S. As you can see, I just made an assertion similar to the assertion that Kris made upthread, but I didn’t make it about an entire gender class, and I actually provided evidence for my assertion.  I didn’t just belittle people for asking for evidence; I provided it.  Even still, I don’t think it will be long before a moderator is here to warn me/ban me. 

Frugal Toque, where are you?  Come on down.

So let's go through what happened here.  Chaskavitch, MarcherLady and Kris all said in various ways that men discount women's telling of their experiences of sexual assault.  Tom Smith then asked Kris in particular (it was part of her post that he quoted) to act as his unpaid volunteer research assistant and provide proof of that claim.  When Kris quite rightly declined to do so,  Tom Smith came back with an unproveable personal anecdote that takes the discussion nowhere and sol said women need to be careful in pointing out men's sexist attitudes to sexual assault in case those men take it personally and push back.

I'm glad I pushed back on that, in the post Tom Smith quoted.  On this forum we are all equals, right?  Within the forum etiquette we can say what we like, how we like.  But apparently not: on this forum men are perfectly happy to take facepunches about their finances but are too delicate to be able to cope with a tiny little bit of women pushing back on sexist attitudes to sexual assault?  So delicate are men's feelings, apparently, that pushing back even the little I did it is going to turn men on the forum into Trump voters, apparently. 

[Mod note:  let's avoid making sweeping statements about either gender/sex.]


As I said, poor ickle men with their poor ickle feelings, now so hurt that someone pointed out that they weren't perfect that they are going to take their toys and play with someone else.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2018, 08:48:54 AM by FrugalToque »

FrugalToque

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #92 on: October 09, 2018, 07:32:38 AM »
Thanks, Toque.
...

You're welcome, but it'll probably go easier if we don't gloat.

Toque.

chaskavitch

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #93 on: October 09, 2018, 08:06:41 AM »
Thanks, Toque.
...

You're welcome, but it'll probably go easier if we don't gloat.

Toque.

Well, I'll say thanks for being non-combative and easily understood, Toque.  And thanks to everyone who has responded to my second question.  The on-topic responses have had a lot of good information/suggestions, and the more tangential responses have still been illuminating.

As far as the "men don't trust women" thing, it does happen, but I don't think it's conscious decision a lot of the time. 

For another N=1 on that subject, my husband has on 3 separate occasions told me "so and so mentioned this book/movie, it looks super interesting, I think we should read/watch it!" after I've already enthusiastically suggested the same piece of media more than once.  He doesn't give my recommendations as much weight as he does recommendations from his male friends.  It's now a recognized issue and he's working on it :)

He's also disbelieved me at other times about whether or not construction on a road was complete (it was, but we went the long way around because he didn't believe I'd driven past it that morning), if a certain store was north or south on a main road (we turned the wrong way and again took the super long route), or how much we've spent on X in a month ("What do you mean I've spent ALL of my fun money this month.  I haven't bought ANYTHING interesting!"). 

These examples are getting fewer and farther between, but it's a thing, and it's infuriating.  And when I get mad, he laughs at me because he thinks it's "cute". 
« Last Edit: October 09, 2018, 08:18:32 AM by chaskavitch »

sol

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #94 on: October 09, 2018, 08:14:40 AM »
men are perfectly happy to take facepunches about their finances but are too delicate to be able to cope with a tiny little bit of women pushing back on sexist attitudes to sexual assault?  As I said, poor ickle men with their poor ickle feelings, now so hurt that someone pointed out that they weren't perfect that they are going to take their toys and play with someone else.

You're welcome, but it'll probably go easier if we don't gloat.

This comment is condescending and sexist, and people have been banned from this forum for lesser crimes.  I expected better than "you're welcome, but..."

Regardless of whether or not you agree with the sentiment behind it, this was totally unacceptable by the forum's standards of conduct. 

Kris

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #95 on: October 09, 2018, 08:23:15 AM »
Thanks, Toque.
...

You're welcome, but it'll probably go easier if we don't gloat.

Toque.

Well, I'll say thanks for being non-combative and easily understood, Toque.  And thanks to everyone who has responded to my second question.  The on-topic responses have had a lot of good information/suggestions, and the more tangential responses have still been illuminating.

As far as the "men don't trust women" thing, it does happen, but I don't think it's conscious decision a lot of the time. 

For another N=1 on that subject, my husband has on 3 separate occasions told me "so and so mentioned this book/movie, it looks super interesting, I think we should read/watch it!" after I've already enthusiastically suggested the same piece of media more than once.  He doesn't give my recommendations as much weight as he does recommendations from his male friends.  It's now a recognized issue and he's working on it :)

He's also disbelieved me at other times about whether or not construction on a road was complete (it was, but we went the long way around because he didn't believe I'd driven past it that morning), if a certain store was north or south on a main road (we turned the wrong way and again took the super long route), or how much we've spent on X in a month ("What do you mean I've spent ALL of my fun money this month.  I haven't bought ANYTHING interesting!"). 

These examples are getting fewer and farther between, but it's a thing, and it's infuriating.  And when I get mad, he laughs at me because he thinks it's "cute".

Ha. My husband does stuff like that, too. And yeah, I call him on it, so now he's aware. Thankfully he doesn't laugh at me, though...

former player

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #96 on: October 09, 2018, 08:28:05 AM »
men are perfectly happy to take facepunches about their finances but are too delicate to be able to cope with a tiny little bit of women pushing back on sexist attitudes to sexual assault?  As I said, poor ickle men with their poor ickle feelings, now so hurt that someone pointed out that they weren't perfect that they are going to take their toys and play with someone else.

You're welcome, but it'll probably go easier if we don't gloat.

This comment is condescending and sexist, and people have been banned from this forum for lesser crimes.  I expected better than "you're welcome, but..."

Regardless of whether or not you agree with the sentiment behind it, this was totally unacceptable by the forum's standards of conduct.


Feel free to report me, sol.

Dabnasty

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #97 on: October 09, 2018, 08:31:31 AM »
Thanks, Toque.
...

You're welcome, but it'll probably go easier if we don't gloat.

Toque.

Well, I'll say thanks for being non-combative and easily understood, Toque.  And thanks to everyone who has responded to my second question.  The on-topic responses have had a lot of good information/suggestions, and the more tangential responses have still been illuminating.

As far as the "men don't trust women" thing, it does happen, but I don't think it's conscious decision a lot of the time. 

For another N=1 on that subject, my husband has on 3 separate occasions told me "so and so mentioned this book/movie, it looks super interesting, I think we should read/watch it!" after I've already enthusiastically suggested the same piece of media more than once.  He doesn't give my recommendations as much weight as he does recommendations from his male friends.  It's now a recognized issue and he's working on it :)

He's also disbelieved me at other times about whether or not construction on a road was complete (it was, but we went the long way around because he didn't believe I'd driven past it that morning), if a certain store was north or south on a main road (we turned the wrong way and again took the super long route), or how much we've spent on X in a month ("What do you mean I've spent ALL of my fun money this month.  I haven't bought ANYTHING interesting!"). 

These examples are getting fewer and farther between, but it's a thing, and it's infuriating.  And when I get mad, he laughs at me because he thinks it's "cute".

When it comes to the book/movie recommendations, I think that's a pretty standard relationship problem. We tend to discount the recommendations of people that we're more comfortable with. This article isn't the best explanation, but it does explain some of the reasons.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-who-stray/201408/7-reasons-we-can-t-hear-the-people-closest-us

And I'm not saying it has nothing to do with the male/female dynamic but I know for a fact that I do this to my partner and she does it to me too.

The one about road construction is pretty bad, you had just used that road? How would you have forgotten something like that?

And the last anecdote I'll comment on is the spending. That definitely sounds like denial because "but I wants"


FrugalToque

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #98 on: October 09, 2018, 08:52:30 AM »
men are perfectly happy to take facepunches about their finances but are too delicate to be able to cope with a tiny little bit of women pushing back on sexist attitudes to sexual assault?  As I said, poor ickle men with their poor ickle feelings, now so hurt that someone pointed out that they weren't perfect that they are going to take their toys and play with someone else.

You're welcome, but it'll probably go easier if we don't gloat.

This comment is condescending and sexist, and people have been banned from this forum for lesser crimes.  I expected better than "you're welcome, but..."

Regardless of whether or not you agree with the sentiment behind it, this was totally unacceptable by the forum's standards of conduct.

My feeling is that we currently take a bit too long to ban people from the forums, just because we want to make sure and we realize we have a large responsibility.  On the other hand, I also woke up to 28 moderator reports in the bin this morning, so it's not like I have a great desire to keep people around who are constantly trolling the forums and annoying everyone.  And yet, we do give plenty of warnings.

MMM's feeling is that we take way, way too long to ban people.

That said, unless you're a white supremacist or a spammer, you generally get a lot free space and warnings before we ban you.

Toque.

dustinst22

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #99 on: October 09, 2018, 08:55:40 AM »
^^^ your response didn't address Sol's point that the comment was totally unacceptable by the forum's standards of conduct.

I disagree with Sol on many things, but on this I think he is spot on.