Author Topic: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?  (Read 8557 times)

sol

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #100 on: October 09, 2018, 09:11:55 AM »
Feel free to report me, sol.

I have never been a fan of forum moderation for anything other than spam.  My comment was not directed at moderators, it was directed at you. 

You are not helping.  You are harming the cause by adopting the very behaviors you claim to oppose.  You have become part of the problem.  You are making gender relations worse, not better.  You are aggressive, demeaning, sexist, and you pejoratively stereotype entire segments of the population in ways that are designed to inflame and anger people.  You are acting like a jerk, and as long as you and people like you continue to act like jerks, the artificial divisions that promote gender inequality are only going to get worse, not better. 

There was a time in American history when women agitated for the vote.  They had to agitate to be heard, but ultimately they had to be awarded the right to vote by people who could already vote, i.e. by men.  They needed to change enough hearts and minds to get enough men on their side to realize the change they wanted to see.  You are not getting any men on your side.

There was a time in American history when black people agitated for civil rights.  They had to agitate to be heard, but ultimately they had to be awarded those rights by the people who had previously oppressed them.  They needed to get enough white people on their side to realize the change they wanted to see, and while some of them did that very successfully (e.g. MLK), others chose your more angry and confrontational approach (e.g. Malcom X) and as a result a lot of white people to this day carry negative stereotypes about black people being overly aggressive, angry, confrontational, even criminal.  Without getting everyone on the same page, our progress on racial equality has been mixed at best.

If you really want change, you would work on finding common ground and not demeaning and belittling the people who need to change.  I find your commentary here to be a deliberately inflammatory attempt to fan gender conflicts into all-out gender warfare, and I don't think that's helpful.  You are pushing away the very people you need to have on your side.

As a singular example, I am definitely not on your side on this issue anymore.  I think the feminist rights movement has to do some serious internal house cleaning of unhelpful (sexist) people like you before it can have any serious chance of accomplishing its goals.  Men like me who believe in the cause want no part of you or your arguments, solely because you pursue them in such a wrong-headed way.  I will not stand with you anymore.

But, as usual, my thoughts come from a cis white hetero dude and so identity trumps content.  I don't get to tell you how to pursue your goals, and you are wholly justified in ignoring me, even hating me, regardless of my intentions.  Go forth and fan the flames if you like.  Just don't expect any backup from me or men like me.

FrugalToque

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #101 on: October 09, 2018, 09:12:11 AM »
^^^ your response didn't address Sol's point that the comment was totally unacceptable by the forum's standards of conduct.

I disagree with Sol on many things, but on this I think he is spot on.

Of course I did.

I said that, besides giving the person in question a written warning, we don't generally insta-ban people for this sort of thing.  People get in-person warnings.  They get public message warnings.  They get strikethroughs and Mod Notes.  They get a *lot* of these before we resort to a permanent ban.

Are we always perfectly on the ball in distributing these things in the proper temporal order?  No.  Do we always publicize them?  No.

Sometimes, a truly douchey post will sit on the forums for days because all the mods are on vacation or because no one flags it to us.  Sometimes a mod writes a response, correction or admonition and it doesn't post.

But we are doing our best to keep assholes from taking over this forum and turning it into the shitshow that the rest of the Internet easily descends.  (i.e. every damned thread involving Trump, Kavanaugh et al)

Toque.

sol

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #102 on: October 09, 2018, 09:15:34 AM »
That said, unless you're a white supremacist or a spammer, you generally get a lot free space and warnings before we ban you.

I've been "warned" multiple times, with a little colored reminder next to my name in every thread.  Was former player warned, or did you just mean that "don't gloat" was the warning issued in this case?

I think the little colored warning labels (10% whoohoo!) are kind of ridiculous, but they do at least provide a record of past behaviors that someone thought inappropriate.  In this case, does former player's behavior rise to that threshhold?
« Last Edit: October 09, 2018, 09:19:19 AM by sol »

dustinst22

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #103 on: October 09, 2018, 09:17:09 AM »
^^^ your response didn't address Sol's point that the comment was totally unacceptable by the forum's standards of conduct.

I disagree with Sol on many things, but on this I think he is spot on.

Of course I did.



I didn't see you agree that the comment was unacceptable.  That would be a good thing to at least acknowledge.

FrugalToque

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #104 on: October 09, 2018, 09:19:06 AM »
That said, unless you're a white supremacist or a spammer, you generally get a lot free space and warnings before we ban you.

I've been "warned" multiple times, with a little colored reminder next to my name in every thread.  Was former player warned, or did you just mean that "don't gloat" was the warning issued in this case?

You have only ever been warned via public red notes?

I understand your confusion, as my strikethrough and red-note did not go through because I was replying at the same time.   But, when you pointed it out, I backed through my browser history and made sure it posted.

Do we have that cleared up now?  Because I already have several other "Oops, I multiple posted a topic" and "Spam!" notes to chase down.

Toque.

sol

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #105 on: October 09, 2018, 09:22:47 AM »
Do we have that cleared up now?  Because I already have several other "Oops, I multiple posted a topic" and "Spam!" notes to chase down.

Of course you are free to go moderate elsewhere, and you don't need my permission.

I generally don't like it when mods alter the content of someone's posts with a red mod edit, because I would like to believe that the community can pass judgment on a person's words without an official decree.  I don't think your red mod edit on the previous page is necessary, and in fact I think you're just going to anger some people.  I'm counting down the seconds until we get a "how dare a man censor a woman's words" post in this thread.

ministashy

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #106 on: October 09, 2018, 10:39:17 AM »
there are a number of awesome men on this forum who are allies of women who will understand and agree that male socialization tends to teach them to discount women’s voices.

Highlighting sexual inequality is fine, Kris, we just have to be careful about any statements that sound like "men do this" because it sounds like a personal attack to all men who don't do that.  For example, I would suggest rephrasing your initial comment from "men have just been socialized to..." to something less stereotyping, like "society typically socializes men to..." because that makes the same point without effectively telling someone who would otherwise be on your side "Hey you're man, and this is what you personally are doing wrong because you are man, no matter what you personally are doing, because all men do this."

Changing the phrasing makes a valid argument sound less accusatory, is more effective at changing minds because it doesn't put potential allies on the defensive, and I find that it helps reminds me that men are unwilling victims in these problems too.  If your son is inadvertenly socialized into a raging asshole, it's not because he was born that way and it's not an inherent fault of who he is, it's because that's the behaviors he was taught as a young man.  Ditto if your son is raised correctly.  We all live in a system that reinforces gender inequality, whether we like it or not, and we can all work to change it but we can't pretend we live apart from it.

I realize I'm sticking my neck out with this post.  I will not be surprised if some folks are angry with me.

Sol, not to pile on, but a couple points:

1.  I agree with most of what you said.  If you want people to agree with you, then the last thing you want is to put them on the defensive.  When people get defensive, they stop listening.

2.  That said, see all the bolded parts in your post above.  You might want to take a step back and ask yourself whether you've ever criticized a male poster's tone or the way they've made an argument in the same way.  Because I've seen a lot of pointedly aggressive/facepunchy male posters on the MMM forums, and I am having a hard time thinking of a single example of anyone calling them out not for the content of their posts, but for the way they phrased their arguments (until it gets down to name-calling, at which point the mods step in). 

Can you see why Kris and the other female posters get upset at the tone policing, when it seems disproportionately directed at the female members of the board? 

And if I'm wrong, I'd love to see examples where male posters got called out by other male posters for their tone.

mm1970

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #107 on: October 09, 2018, 10:48:17 AM »
there are a number of awesome men on this forum who are allies of women who will understand and agree that male socialization tends to teach them to discount women’s voices.

Highlighting sexual inequality is fine, Kris, we just have to be careful about any statements that sound like "men do this" because it sounds like a personal attack to all men who don't do that.  For example, I would suggest rephrasing your initial comment from "men have just been socialized to..." to something less stereotyping, like "society typically socializes men to..." because that makes the same point without effectively telling someone who would otherwise be on your side "Hey you're man, and this is what you personally are doing wrong because you are man, no matter what you personally are doing, because all men do this."

Changing the phrasing makes a valid argument sound less accusatory, is more effective at changing minds because it doesn't put potential allies on the defensive, and I find that it helps reminds me that men are unwilling victims in these problems too.  If your son is inadvertenly socialized into a raging asshole, it's not because he was born that way and it's not an inherent fault of who he is, it's because that's the behaviors he was taught as a young man.  Ditto if your son is raised correctly.  We all live in a system that reinforces gender inequality, whether we like it or not, and we can all work to change it but we can't pretend we live apart from it.

I realize I'm sticking my neck out with this post.  I will not be surprised if some folks are angry with me.

Sol, not to pile on, but a couple points:

1.  I agree with most of what you said.  If you want people to agree with you, then the last thing you want is to put them on the defensive.  When people get defensive, they stop listening.

2.  That said, see all the bolded parts in your post above.  You might want to take a step back and ask yourself whether you've ever criticized a male poster's tone or the way they've made an argument in the same way.  Because I've seen a lot of pointedly aggressive/facepunchy male posters on the MMM forums, and I am having a hard time thinking of a single example of anyone calling them out not for the content of their posts, but for the way they phrased their arguments (until it gets down to name-calling, at which point the mods step in). 

Can you see why Kris and the other female posters get upset at the tone policing, when it seems disproportionately directed at the female members of the board? 

And if I'm wrong, I'd love to see examples where male posters got called out by other male posters for their tone.
+1.

I actually didn't mind the tone of Sol's comment (above), maybe because it's so ingrained to me by now to frame things in a way so that opinionated, aggressive males will listen.  (I mean, I do work with a bunch of PhD engineers).
« Last Edit: October 09, 2018, 05:22:03 PM by mm1970 »

sol

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #108 on: October 09, 2018, 01:24:21 PM »
You might want to take a step back and ask yourself whether you've ever criticized a male poster's tone or the way they've made an argument in the same way. 
...
I'd love to see examples where male posters got called out by other male posters for their tone.

Apparently, this is the point in the discussion where I'm supposed to indignantly accuse you of making me subordinate to you by forcing me to do your research for you instead of just providing recent links to relevant examples of times I have called out a male poster for being a jerk.  Go ahead and read the next few pages of those threads and then come back and tell me if you think I gave a male poster a free pass for his shitty arguments or his shitty attitude.

I understand the complaint about tone policing, and I understand the complaint about unfair credence.  The solution to these problems is not to adopt the worst behaviors you see, turn them around, and throw them back in the face of the people who started it.  Treating sexist men in sexist ways does not help.  Treating condescending men with a condescending attitude does not help.  Adopting these broken modes of communication only validates the dysfunction you see. 

We all need to set a better example than that.

ministashy

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #109 on: October 09, 2018, 02:53:42 PM »
You might want to take a step back and ask yourself whether you've ever criticized a male poster's tone or the way they've made an argument in the same way. 
...
I'd love to see examples where male posters got called out by other male posters for their tone.

Apparently, this is the point in the discussion where I'm supposed to indignantly accuse you of making me subordinate to you by forcing me to do your research for you instead of just providing recent links to relevant examples of times I have called out a male poster for being a jerk.  Go ahead and read the next few pages of those threads and then come back and tell me if you think I gave a male poster a free pass for his shitty arguments or his shitty attitude.

Well, given that I suggested you do the research to discover for yourself whether you were calling out tone in women more often than men, me doing it for you wouldn't really achieve anything productive.  And hey, if my assumptions were wrong and you weren't, you get the satisfaction of knowing I was totally off base!

Thank you for your examples, however, in reading through them I could find only one example where you were criticizing tone rather than content--namely, your response to Anistropy in which you state 'because you made a lot of people very uncomfortable with your absolute insistence that sexual assault survivors are mostly liars'.  But quite frankly, my assessment of the other linked posts is that you're engaging with the content of the argument, not the tone.  Which is valid--quite frankly, your posts are usually very clear and well thought out and I enjoy reading them--but that just makes it all the more jarring when you turned around in this thread to criticize tone instead. 

Just from my POV--looking at history, women have been using sweet words and rational, reasonable arguments for literally hundreds of years to demand recognition as human beings that have equal standing and rights as men.  It doesn't seem to produce much in the way of results.  Whereas when women get loud, get strident, get violent and burn their bras ... then suddenly it seems people pay attention.  So IMHO, sometimes getting loud and angry (and making people uncomfortable) has its place.

FrugalToque

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #110 on: October 10, 2018, 06:05:37 AM »
Modern dialogue as engineered by certain feminists seems to presuppose that women are universally ignored and naturally right.  The former I see a lot of.  The latter I have serious issues with - if only because women disagree with each other on a lot of things.  The end result is a often dialogue that looks like this:

Male poster: "You may be wrong about..."

Female poster: "Don't talk down to me."

Male poster: "I just want to explain..."

Female poster: "You're being condescending..."

Male poster: "I'm trying to be polite, but please recognize..."

Female poster: "Don't mansplain at me!"

Male poster: "I do strongly agree with you on..."

Female poster: "Well it's about time!  Will you deign to mansplain to me something I already know - again? /s"

Male poster: "Can't disagree, can't argue, can't even AGREE - fuck off!"

Female poster: "No fuck you!  I knew polite dialogue was useless!"

I look forward with great anticipation what this, combined traditional dismissive male attitudes, will do to improve things.

I think your dialogue might be slightly different, though, if a female poster wrote it.  It would start something like:

female poster: we have to fight sexism in our institutions whenever we see it.
male poster: What?  Prove sexism exists in our institutions!  Where is it?  When does it happen?
female poster: WTF?  I have to prove sexism exists?  No.  Stop bothering me.
male poster:  See how irrational women are?  They won't even answer simple questions.

The male poster is at least *pretending* that he asked a reasonable, logical question.  Whether he did so in good faith is another question.
The female poster thinks it's ridiculous to actually have to support such an obvious truth at this point.

I'm pretty sure that's where this discussion went off the rails and descended into two groups of people talking to each other.

Toque.

Pigeon

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #111 on: October 10, 2018, 08:40:29 AM »
sol, you are one of my favorite posters.  Even when I disagree with you about something, I admire your reasoning.  I don't post a ton here, but I read a lot and your posts always stand out in a good way.

It's really painful to be called out on stuff when you are trying hard to be an ally, but sometimes it's helpful to not get self-defensive and really try to just listen.  I have felt the same way when trying to be an ally for certain marginalized groups.  You can learn something profound about your own prejudices when you stop putting your back up because you consider yourself an ally.  Being an ally doesn't mean that you still can't learn from the people you are trying to support.

sol

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #112 on: October 10, 2018, 09:42:13 AM »
It's really painful to be called out on stuff

Just for the sake of clarity, what exactly am I being called out on?

Was it for asking people to be considerate?  Was it for saying "be nice to people"?  For trying to suggest how we can all communicate more effectively, instead of letting these conversations devolve into belittling stereotypes and name calling?  For highlighting how progress requires cooperation from all sides?

I'm always willing to listen.  In this case, I feel like some of our members are not listening to me, ignoring the content of my argument and solely focusing on my tone or my identity.  I'm not feeling defensive, I'm feeling pissed off because women I was trying to support wrote me angry condescending messages, and compared me to a climate skeptic and anti-vaxxer even though I was already on their side.  I don't need to rationalize my position as an ally.  They need to rationalize their position as jerks.  This is not how you treat people, regardless of their positions, not in real life and not on the internet.  It's shameful, and counterproductive to their stated goals.

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Being an ally doesn't mean that you still can't learn from the people you are trying to support.

As I have tried to make clear, I am done supporting people like this.  Why am I the only one who has to learn?  Pushing the right ideas in the wrong way does not make you noble.  If someone wants to argue for equality by demeaning their allies, they are not really arguing for equality.  Raging hypocrites have ruined my day.  I hate that I'm suddenly in the position of having to say to myself, "Hey, maybe those men's rights assholes kind of have a point.  There are some really shitty feminists out there."

I recognize that I'm entirely out on my own on this one.  No one has come to my defense, no one agrees with me, no one has been willing to admit that anything other than angry shouting is an appropriate response to sexism.  I'm supposed to learn from the people I'm trying to support?  I have learned that I am an unwelcome minority at this party, as each new person shows up to pile on.  I'm out!

At this point in the conversation, all I'm expecting from a few key voices is a hearty "good riddance".  As I depart the equal right's movement with my jaw clenched and disillusionment in my eyes, maybe we should all take a moment to reflect on whose goals this little sideshow has really advanced.  Is everyone happy with the outcome we have achieved?
« Last Edit: October 10, 2018, 09:45:10 AM by sol »

Kris

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #113 on: October 10, 2018, 10:06:48 AM »
It's really painful to be called out on stuff

Just for the sake of clarity, what exactly am I being called out on?

Was it for asking people to be considerate?  Was it for saying "be nice to people"?  For trying to suggest how we can all communicate more effectively, instead of letting these conversations devolve into belittling stereotypes and name calling?  For highlighting how progress requires cooperation from all sides?

I'm always willing to listen.  In this case, I feel like some of our members are not listening to me, ignoring the content of my argument and solely focusing on my tone or my identity.  I'm not feeling defensive, I'm feeling pissed off because women I was trying to support wrote me angry condescending messages, and compared me to a climate skeptic and anti-vaxxer even though I was already on their side.  I don't need to rationalize my position as an ally.  They need to rationalize their position as jerks.  This is not how you treat people, regardless of their positions, not in real life and not on the internet.  It's shameful, and counterproductive to their stated goals.

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Being an ally doesn't mean that you still can't learn from the people you are trying to support.

As I have tried to make clear, I am done supporting people like this.  Why am I the only one who has to learn?  Pushing the right ideas in the wrong way does not make you noble.  If someone wants to argue for equality by demeaning their allies, they are not really arguing for equality.  Raging hypocrites have ruined my day.  I hate that I'm suddenly in the position of having to say to myself, "Hey, maybe those men's rights assholes kind of have a point.  There are some really shitty feminists out there."

I recognize that I'm entirely out on my own on this one.  No one has come to my defense, no one agrees with me, no one has been willing to admit that anything other than angry shouting is an appropriate response to sexism.  I'm supposed to learn from the people I'm trying to support?  I have learned that I am an unwelcome minority at this party, as each new person shows up to pile on.  I'm out!

At this point in the conversation, all I'm expecting from a few key voices is a hearty "good riddance".  As I depart the equal right's movement with my jaw clenched and disillusionment in my eyes, maybe we should all take a moment to reflect on whose goals this little sideshow has really advanced.  Is everyone happy with the outcome we have achieved?

If this is what it takes for you to stop arguing for equal rights for women and men and start defending MRAs, I'm not so sure you were such an ally in the first place.

sol

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #114 on: October 10, 2018, 10:21:38 AM »
If this is what it takes for you to stop arguing for equal rights for women and men and start defending MRAs, I'm not so sure you were such an ally in the first place.

I'm not giving up on equal rights for women.  I'm giving up on you and feminists like you who undermine feminism.  You've broken it.  You think you're promoting equal rights by making fun of men and comparing them to climate deniers or the anti-vax movement?  Would I be promoting equal rights if I treated women the way women have treated me in this thread?

I'm not defending MRAs, I'm saying that in the case of this particular criticism of feminism, you are absolutely making them correct with your behavior.  And that's sad.  Why give ammunition to those people?

Kris

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #115 on: October 10, 2018, 10:44:54 AM »
If this is what it takes for you to stop arguing for equal rights for women and men and start defending MRAs, I'm not so sure you were such an ally in the first place.

I'm not giving up on equal rights for women.  I'm giving up on you and feminists like you who undermine feminism.  You've broken it.  You think you're promoting equal rights by making fun of men and comparing them to climate deniers or the anti-vax movement?  Would I be promoting equal rights if I treated women the way women have treated me in this thread?

I'm not defending MRAs, I'm saying that in the case of this particular criticism of feminism, you are absolutely making them correct with your behavior.  And that's sad.  Why give ammunition to those people?

Uh-huh.

Sorry, man, you make that histrionic "as I depart the equal rights movement" comment, and then you try go back on it. Words have meaning. You said those things. If you didn't mean what you said, that's on you, but you still said them.

Also, no. I did not compare you to a climate change denier. I did not compare you to the anti-vax movement. I never PMed you. You, however, PMed me with a non-apology apology because you accused me of something in this thread further up that I did not say and I called you on it. But instead of correcting yourself here you did it in private. And because I didn't immediately accept your non-apology and praise you for it, you abruptly left the conversation.

You are lumping all of the women you have a problem with here together so you can make a self-righteous soapbox argument. Many people here, women and men, have suggested that maybe you should take a step back and re-evaluate, but you have not. Instead, you proclaim that men's rights advocates have a point, and that women have broken equal rights. It's all on us. You are right. We are wrong.

As a side note, I find it interesting and perhaps significant that you seem unable to distinguish the various women who have disagreed with you/PMed you, and instead lump them into one composite character to rail against.

This reminds me of a conversation I had with a black friend of mine a while ago who was frustrated as hell because of how often she would try to convey something to a well-meaning "ally" who would get angry, and they would blame her for the misunderstanding and say that she was the problem. Her frustration grew, but she was supposed to never be anything but perfectly kind, perfectly sweet, and never say anything in a way that would potentially offend someone who thought of him/herself as an ally or put them on the defensive in any way. I remember toward the end of the conversation, she threw up her hands and said, "Girl, with allies like those, who needs enemies?"

Allies are allies. They don't threaten to leave the movement based on a conversation. They don't defend a sexist movement that actually advocates negging, sexual assault, and even rape.

Looking back at the history of your posts in the past few weeks, you have spent so much more time and argued so much more forcefully criticizing women's use of language than you have against the things that women are actually trying to point out with their language, that a pattern of your priorities seems to emerge. And your priorities seem much more aligned with being agreed with and even praised for being an "ally" than they do with actually confronting the sexist behaviors that have angered us so much in the first place.

So, to repeat my friend: With allies like this...
« Last Edit: October 10, 2018, 10:49:26 AM by Kris »

former player

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #116 on: October 10, 2018, 10:52:18 AM »
Quod erat demonstrandum.

I'd just like to add, given that I have been moderated in this discussion, that like Kris I have not PM'd sol and have not compared him to a climate change denier or anti-vaxxer.



sol

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #117 on: October 10, 2018, 11:18:57 AM »
Words have meaning.

Yes they do.  I wish you would take ownership of yours. 

You know what else has meaning?  Deafening silence.

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Also, no. I did not compare you to a climate change denier. I did not compare you to the anti-vax movement.

No, gaja did that, right after your angry and condescending PM.  And the timing of those two things together suddenly opened my eyes.  I'm not welcome, I get it.

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But instead of correcting yourself here you did it in private.

I didn't mean to correct myself.  If I had meant to correct something I had said here, I would have done so publicly by editing a post or making a new one.  You should try it.

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you abruptly left the conversation.

Funny, I feel like I'm totally unable to leave this conversation. 

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Many people here, women and men, have suggested that maybe you should take a step back and re-evaluate, but you have not.

You think I have not taken a step back to re-evaluate? 

This isn't about me, it's never been about me, and you can stop trying to make it about me.  I said I thought your post to Tom was not the best way to approach this problem, and you immediately pivoted to criticisms of me instead of ever engaging that point, or re-evaluating your approach.

I freely admit that you and others have uniformly found my contributions to be inappropriate.  Message received.  Are you also listening?

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Instead, you proclaim that men's rights advocates have a point

And I stand by that assessment.  For all of the ugly vitriol that comes from that group, the criticism that some women have embraced truly ugly behaviors in pursuit of feminism appears to be a valid one.

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Allies are allies. They don't threaten to leave the movement based on a conversation.

I think I have been pretty clear that I still support the movement, I just strongly disagree with the tactics adopted by some of the participants.  I will attempt to stay out of future forum debates on this topic, because I don't want to be associated with people who behave like that.

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And your priorities seem much more aligned with being agreed with and even praised for being an "ally" than they do with actually confronting the sexist behaviors that have angered us so much in the first place.

Still not about me, but about how to make change happen.  I think you're changing things in the wrong direction.

Are you now suggesting that I have not been an ally, have not argued for equal rights on the forum for the past six years, have not supported you and your views against other members for all of that time?

I understand that you are angry, and with good reason.  I'm probably the wrong target for your anger, though.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

At the moment, I am also pretty content with the way this has unfolded.  I think readers can review the discussion and draw their own conclusions, and maybe we should stop cluttering up chaskavitch's thread with infighting.  Some people will conclude I am a sexist asshole because I asked for a more positive and less aggressive discussion of how to improve gender relations, and I hope that those people too will step up and add their voices to future forum debates about these topics.  I suppose it takes all kinds.

Except me.  It definitely doesn't need me.

golden1

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #118 on: October 10, 2018, 11:45:27 AM »
Wow Sol,

You are normally really level headed, but you are being super defensive here.  Maybe you want to, when you calm down a bit, examine why that is?  You are acting completely irrationally, in my view.

I agree with others here, if this conversation is all that it takes to make you identify with MRA’s, then I don’t think you approached the conversation with good intentions in the first place.  Just that one statement basically writes you off in most women’s eyes. It is the equivalent of making a racist joke or throwing around the N-word in mixed company.   It’s very disrespectful.  Why would you say something so deliberately inflammatory?  Maybe you should rethink your approach if you want to get your point across more effectively.  ;P

This isn’t about you, or your pride.  I don’t know what is going on in your life, but maybe take a little time off the forums and chill. 





GuitarStv

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #119 on: October 10, 2018, 12:01:57 PM »
So, if I'm reading this correctly . . . this is largely an argument that came out of this exchange:

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I agree with MarcherLady, that men have just been socialized to discount and minimize women’s thoughts, experiences and opinions.

How?  Where were these men socialized this way?  In public schools?  From messages in the movies?  On network television?  Since you're asserting that men have been socialized to "discount and minimize women's thoughts, experiences and opinions," -- which includes all the men on this forum -- I'd like to believe you will have some explanation for where this pervasive socialization was implemented. 

Interested in hearing your thoughts.  Thanks.

And then Sol's following response:

How?  Where were these men socialized this way?  In public schools?  From messages in the movies?  On network television?  Since you're asserting that men have been socialized to "discount and minimize women's thoughts, experiences and opinions," -- which includes all the men on this forum -- I'd like to believe you will have some explanation for where this pervasive socialization was implemented. 

Interested in hearing your thoughts.  Thanks.

Don't take it personally, Tom.  People who are upset, rightfully or not, often lash out against entire groups as if they were a homogeneous whole, without thinking about how this sort of stereotyping is not very different from the type they're upset about.  They don't mean you.

Unless you're one of those, in which case they do mean you and so do I.

Trying to stand up for yourself in this context is entirely futile.  There is no possible defense.  Imagine how modern Germans feel about their country's history with starting world wars.  Every single time they advocate for the use of military force they have to tiptoe around this history, and if someone accuses them of warmongering they pretty much have to apologize no matter how justified the current situation is.  As a dude, you're in the same boat today.  You don't get to stand up for yourself without being labelled as part of the problem.   Life isn't fair, get used to it.

On the bright side you still get paid more than women do for the same work, on average, and apparently you can go back to sexually assaulting women when blackout drunk and as long as there are not other witnesses you can be safely assured of zero consequences for your crimes!  So it's not all bad!  Or maybe it is?

there are a number of awesome men on this forum who are allies of women who will understand and agree that male socialization tends to teach them to discount women’s voices.

Highlighting sexual inequality is fine, Kris, we just have to be careful about any statements that sound like "men do this" because it sounds like a personal attack to all men who don't do that.  For example, I would suggest rephrasing your initial comment from "men have just been socialized to..." to something less stereotyping, like "society typically socializes men to..." because that makes the same point without effectively telling someone who would otherwise be on your side "Hey you're man, and this is what you personally are doing wrong because you are man, no matter what you personally are doing, because all men do this."

Changing the phrasing makes a valid argument sound less accusatory, is more effective at changing minds because it doesn't put potential allies on the defensive, and I find that it helps reminds me that men are unwilling victims in these problems too.  If your son is inadvertenly socialized into a raging asshole, it's not because he was born that way and it's not an inherent fault of who he is, it's because that's the behaviors he was taught as a young man.  Ditto if your son is raised correctly.  We all live in a system that reinforces gender inequality, whether we like it or not, and we can all work to change it but we can't pretend we live apart from it.

I realize I'm sticking my neck out with this post.  I will not be surprised if some folks are angry with me.



Fundamentally we're asking the question 'Is it fair to lump together most men with all men when discussing an issue?'  The answer is no - just as it's not OK to say that black people are involved in more crime in the US, therefore are criminals.  Talking about people in generalities is obviously going to be unfair to those people to whom the generalities don't apply.

At the same time though for this instance I'm not entirely sure why it bothers some men when sweeping generalizations are made.  I read them myself, think "Meh.  Doesn't apply to me, they must be talking about other men." and go about my day.  It's fair and valid to have some feelings of resentment to an oppressing class of people even if not everyone in that group is wholly guilty.  (Oscar Schindler helped Jewish people and was a Nazi party member - does it make you angry when someone says that members of the Nazi party were evil to Jews?  Would Schindler be angry at you for saying that?)  Last I checked, most stats indicate that although things have become much better for women than say in the 1900s, men are still much more often in positions of power, get paid more, get away with rape more, and appear to be overly concerned with the reproductive rights of women.  There's a lot to be upset about, and we're pretty far from equality.

golden1

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #120 on: October 10, 2018, 12:02:59 PM »
I also find it chilling that you want to silence a long time poster who doesn’t support your views.  I thought you were stronger than that.  Every comment here is about you, you, you, you.  Your anger, your feelings, you being offended. 

I honestly think the root of so many of these type of disagreements (and many disagreements in politics these days) is cultural narcissism.  Everyone is so focused on how much they are hurting, they are grieving, they are being attacked.  It sucks and it means that no one is happy and everyone is a victim.  It devistates your self-esteem and simultaneously wounds the self esteem of others.  Whole movements and political parties are being built around victimization. 


BookLoverL

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #121 on: October 10, 2018, 12:06:37 PM »
I'm probably a big idiot for even stepping into this, but...

I am a queer disabled woman (which shouldn't even matter, but here we are). I used to be squarely in social justice camp a couple of years ago. However, I have gradually been drifting away from it.

I still agree 100% with feminism and affiliated movements' stated goals of achieving equality for everyone, including women, POC, LGBTQIA+, etc. However, the reason I moved away from the whole thing a bit was because of how many people seemed to me to be campaigning for equality in a way which was objectively a bad strategy.

Women, and other traditionally disadvantaged groups, absolutely have the right to be loud and angry, the same as anyone. Sometimes loud and angry is even a good choice. It's a good tone for venting to people and similar, and if someone wants to be angry at people all over the place, that's up to them.

However, I personally reckon that people in general are more likely to be persuaded to someone's point of view if that person listens to their point of view respectfully and THEN explains, still respectfully, why they disagree. This holds whether either person is a man or a woman. Rather than treating everyone who even potentially might not agree as an enemy, why not see them as an ally you haven't made yet?

Just my two cents. As far as I can see, both Sol AND everyone arguing against him have good points.

Dabnasty

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #122 on: October 10, 2018, 12:20:46 PM »
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I agree with MarcherLady, that men have just been socialized to discount and minimize women’s thoughts, experiences and opinions.

How?  Where were these men socialized this way?  In public schools?  From messages in the movies?  On network television?  Since you're asserting that men have been socialized to "discount and minimize women's thoughts, experiences and opinions," -- which includes all the men on this forum -- I'd like to believe you will have some explanation for where this pervasive socialization was implemented. 

Interested in hearing your thoughts.  Thanks.

You know what, Tom?

It turns out, I have had enough of explaining things to combative men lately. So, no, I have decided that it is not my job to explain this to you. In fact, I believe there are a number of awesome men on this forum who are allies of women who will understand and agree that male socialization tends to teach them to discount women’s voices. And there are likely lots of resources you can find by googling or doing an Amazon search.

My response was to Chaskavitch. Feel free to read the article I linked for her if you’d like.

Have a nice day.

You're all wrong :) Here's what really happened.

Kris said men are socialized to be x. I don't see that as a generalization against men but rather a generalization against society. In fact, to the man that overcomes this "socialization" and forms his own worldviews independently it's almost a compliment.

Then Tom Smith questioned that idea and asked for evidence. I think that's a completely reasonable request and pretty normal in these discussions if it was sincere. It didn't really come off as sincere, which I assume is why Kris's response was combative.

Then sol dropped in with what I think is actually a fair argument, it just wasn't the right time to bring it up. It clearly sounded like an accusation directed at Kris which I don't think was fair at that moment. I've seen real examples of what sol is describing but I didn't think this was one of them.

Then, just to make sure the embers didn't peter out, former player threw in some tinder with the "ickle little feelings" comment thus ensuring enough fire and smoke to signal firefighter* Toque.

*It's OK to say fireman because he is in fact a man, but I'm treading lightly here.

Kris

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #123 on: October 10, 2018, 01:09:45 PM »
Quote
I agree with MarcherLady, that men have just been socialized to discount and minimize women’s thoughts, experiences and opinions.

How?  Where were these men socialized this way?  In public schools?  From messages in the movies?  On network television?  Since you're asserting that men have been socialized to "discount and minimize women's thoughts, experiences and opinions," -- which includes all the men on this forum -- I'd like to believe you will have some explanation for where this pervasive socialization was implemented. 

Interested in hearing your thoughts.  Thanks.

You know what, Tom?

It turns out, I have had enough of explaining things to combative men lately. So, no, I have decided that it is not my job to explain this to you. In fact, I believe there are a number of awesome men on this forum who are allies of women who will understand and agree that male socialization tends to teach them to discount women’s voices. And there are likely lots of resources you can find by googling or doing an Amazon search.

My response was to Chaskavitch. Feel free to read the article I linked for her if you’d like.

Have a nice day.

You're all wrong :) Here's what really happened.

Kris said men are socialized to be x. I don't see that as a generalization against men but rather a generalization against society. In fact, to the man that overcomes this "socialization" and forms his own worldviews independently it's almost a compliment.

Then Tom Smith questioned that idea and asked for evidence. I think that's a completely reasonable request and pretty normal in these discussions if it was sincere. It didn't really come off as sincere, which I assume is why Kris's response was combative.

Then sol dropped in with what I think is actually a fair argument, it just wasn't the right time to bring it up. It clearly sounded like an accusation directed at Kris which I don't think was fair at that moment. I've seen real examples of what sol is describing but I didn't think this was one of them.

Then, just to make sure the embers didn't peter out, former player threw in some tinder with the "ickle little feelings" comment thus ensuring enough fire and smoke to signal firefighter* Toque.

*It's OK to say fireman because he is in fact a man, but I'm treading lightly here.

I'd say that's a reasonable assessment, at least as far as my part.

Watchmaker

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #124 on: October 10, 2018, 01:13:30 PM »
I'm conflict averse by nature. I like it when everyone stays calm, and my temptation when things get heated is to step away from a conversation. But it's not my place to dictate the terms of this conversation, and though I can walk away that is only because I can go back to my white guy life and not deal with this if I don't want to. Others don't have that same choice.

Golden1 said they think part of the problem is that everyone is thinking about their own hurt, and I agree that that is happening. But I am not a victim of sexism. And you aren't either Sol. So our job is to put aside our issues on this.

I'm confident that former player and Kris (and others) would rather live in a world where they didn't have to get angry-- where it didn't matter if it was "all men" because it was "no men". But try to understand that they didn't arrive where they are in a vacuum. This is where their life has brought them, and you and I don't know what that was like.

Sol, I've read a lot of your posts. You are incredibly bright, and (from what I know of you) you are a good person. I hope you take some time to review what has been discussed and try to understand what a number of people are saying to you.





Kris

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #125 on: October 10, 2018, 01:17:29 PM »
I'm conflict averse by nature. I like it when everyone stays calm, and my temptation when things get heated is to step away from a conversation. But it's not my place to dictate the terms of this conversation, and though I can walk away that is only because I can go back to my white guy life and not deal with this if I don't want to. Others don't have that same choice.

Golden1 said they think part of the problem is that everyone is thinking about their own hurt, and I agree that that is happening. But I am not a victim of sexism. And you aren't either Sol. So our job is to put aside our issues on this.

I'm confident that former player and Kris (and others) would rather live in a world where they didn't have to get angry-- where it didn't matter if it was "all men" because it was "no men". But try to understand that they didn't arrive where they are in a vacuum. This is where their life has brought them, and you and I don't know what that was like.

Sol, I've read a lot of your posts. You are incredibly bright, and (from what I know of you) you are a good person. I hope you take some time to review what has been discussed and try to understand what a number of people are saying to you.

Thank you, Watchmaker. That was well-said, and very appreciated.

gaja

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #126 on: October 10, 2018, 01:44:47 PM »
Words have meaning.

Yes they do.  I wish you would take ownership of yours. 

You know what else has meaning?  Deafening silence.

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Also, no. I did not compare you to a climate change denier. I did not compare you to the anti-vax movement.

No, gaja did that, right after your angry and condescending PM.  And the timing of those two things together suddenly opened my eyes.  I'm not welcome, I get it.

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But instead of correcting yourself here you did it in private.

I didn't mean to correct myself.  If I had meant to correct something I had said here, I would have done so publicly by editing a post or making a new one.  You should try it.

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you abruptly left the conversation.

Funny, I feel like I'm totally unable to leave this conversation. 

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Many people here, women and men, have suggested that maybe you should take a step back and re-evaluate, but you have not.

You think I have not taken a step back to re-evaluate? 

This isn't about me, it's never been about me, and you can stop trying to make it about me.  I said I thought your post to Tom was not the best way to approach this problem, and you immediately pivoted to criticisms of me instead of ever engaging that point, or re-evaluating your approach.

I freely admit that you and others have uniformly found my contributions to be inappropriate.  Message received.  Are you also listening?

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Instead, you proclaim that men's rights advocates have a point

And I stand by that assessment.  For all of the ugly vitriol that comes from that group, the criticism that some women have embraced truly ugly behaviors in pursuit of feminism appears to be a valid one.

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Allies are allies. They don't threaten to leave the movement based on a conversation.

I think I have been pretty clear that I still support the movement, I just strongly disagree with the tactics adopted by some of the participants.  I will attempt to stay out of future forum debates on this topic, because I don't want to be associated with people who behave like that.

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And your priorities seem much more aligned with being agreed with and even praised for being an "ally" than they do with actually confronting the sexist behaviors that have angered us so much in the first place.

Still not about me, but about how to make change happen.  I think you're changing things in the wrong direction.

Are you now suggesting that I have not been an ally, have not argued for equal rights on the forum for the past six years, have not supported you and your views against other members for all of that time?

I understand that you are angry, and with good reason.  I'm probably the wrong target for your anger, though.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

At the moment, I am also pretty content with the way this has unfolded.  I think readers can review the discussion and draw their own conclusions, and maybe we should stop cluttering up chaskavitch's thread with infighting.  Some people will conclude I am a sexist asshole because I asked for a more positive and less aggressive discussion of how to improve gender relations, and I hope that those people too will step up and add their voices to future forum debates about these topics.  I suppose it takes all kinds.

Except me.  It definitely doesn't need me.

No. I did not. I can understand that you could read it like that, if you skipped through my posts because you already were angry. But no.

I wrote a couple of posts trying to discuss the merits of different modes of communication and types of arguments. You apparently read my posts as personal criticism.

Oh, the joys of written internet communication.

sol

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #127 on: October 10, 2018, 01:51:01 PM »
You are normally really level headed, but you are being super defensive here. 
Maybe you want to, when you calm down a bit, examine why that is?  You are acting completely irrationally, in my view.

I have spent the last few days struggling with this topic, and ultimately I'm upset because I feel like I've been cast out of my tribe, and forced to consider if I ever belonged there in the first place.  It wouldn't bother me so much if some random people were jerks on the internet, especially if they were jerks I happen to agree with.  But in this case, those people have notified me that not only am I not helping, I'm actually at fault for trying and it looks like I will not be allowed to help because of who I am. 

Normally I would find that argument easy to discard as silly, because of course anyone can be an ally.  But then more and more people started to show up to reinforce it, and nobody showed up to oppose it, and now it looks like that is in fact the consensus of the tribe to which I thought I belonged.  It's an unfolding crisis of identity.  This is the group I embraced?  They really feel this much animosity, this much irrational fear, that they think this behavior is acceptable even though it so clearly conflicts with everything they claim to believe? 

Now I'm homeless, and not happy about it.

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I agree with others here, if this conversation is all that it takes to make you identify with MRA’s

I defintely don't identify with MRAs, but I now have a finer appreciation of one specific argument I have heard from that community.  It's an argument I had previous discarded as unfounded, but this thread supports the idea that they're on to something in this one narrow instance.  I suppose it shouldn't be a surprise that there are bad people on all sides of the divide.

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It’s very disrespectful.  Why would you say something so deliberately inflammatory?

Was it as disrespectful and inflammatory as gaja and former player have been in this thread?  I thought I was clear (e.g. calling them assholes when I first brought it up) that the men's rights people are gross, but that this discussion was validating at least one of their points.  Specifically, there are some feminists out there who are shitty human beings.  MRAs blow that argument way out of proportion and then use it as cover for their own shitty behavior, which isn't helping either, but the point remains that they're not exactly wrong with the underlying observation.  They use it to drive a wedge between men and women, and now I'm learning that women are using it in the same way.  Yes, I still feel icky even saying it and I wish it hadn't come to this.

I don't think you are ever going to move anyone towards gender equality by driving wedges between people.  Even when your anger is justified, this is the wrong approach.  Advocates who so eagerly use the tools of the MRA movement are in danger of having their stink rub off on them.

At the same time though for this instance I'm not entirely sure why it bothers some men when sweeping generalizations are made.  I read them myself, think "Meh.  Doesn't apply to me, they must be talking about other men." and go about my day.

That doesn't bother me.  In fact I started out my reply to Tom with the "don't let it bother you, they don't mean you."

What bothers me is the total preponderance of participants here who seem fine with being demeaning towards men who are trying to help.  We need to come together on this issue, and I think it's counterproductive to push people away.  When I tried to raise that point, I was met with much more pushing and zero engagement on the substance. 

Okay, I'm listening.  My contributions here are widely considered unhelpful, even insulting.  That was not my intention, but intentions don't matter much in this case.  Since the majority of contributors here seem to think that I'm the one being a jerk here, I'll stop.  That was my plan two days ago anyway, when it first became clear my views on this topic were unwelcome.

And you aren't either Sol.

That's a bold statement, and one I disagree with.  You don't know me or my story.

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I hope you take some time to review what has been discussed and try to understand what a number of people are saying to you.

Let's review what a number of people are saying to me!

1.  I spoke out of turn by suggesting we treat each other with dignity and respect when I should have been validating a woman's feelings of persecution.  (I agree)
2.  It's okay to condescend and insult people you disagree with as long as you are part of the justifiably upset minority.  (I disagree)
3.  Men have been bad forever and they need to be punished for it.  (agree with the first part, not so much the second)
4.  I should shut up and review my life choices because the community agrees I'm out of line.  (heard and embraced, thanks)

Did I miss any of the high points?  I welcome edits and/or additions to this list.

sol

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #128 on: October 10, 2018, 02:03:00 PM »
No. I did not. I can understand that you could read it like that, if you skipped through my posts because you already were angry. But no.

Let's review!

If I’m talking climate change with sceptics, and they pull out the “scientists out to get money” it is usually time to wrap up my efforts to have a constructive dialogue. The same goes for vaccines and autism. “Not all men” is another of these markers for me.

former player

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #129 on: October 10, 2018, 02:07:29 PM »
Taking my life in my hands by intervening again.

sol, would it help you if you changed your words to Kris in reply #65 from talking about sexism to talking about racism?   For instance, as a white person would you really have told a person of colour "white people are unwilling victims in these problems too"?

sol

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #130 on: October 10, 2018, 02:24:58 PM »
sol, would it help you if you changed your words to Kris in reply #65 from talking about sexism to talking about racism?   For instance, as a white person would you really have told a person of colour "white people are unwilling victims in these problems too"?

In the context of that discussion?  Yes, absolutely, and I have done so on numerous occasions on this very forum.  My grandfather was a raging bigot and I have often talked about the conflict this caused in my family, and how I eventually came to forgive his vile behavior as he came to forgive himself.  He was a product of his generation, raised in a society that taught children from birth to treat minorities as inferior, and he didn't move past that problem until well into his 80s.  When he died at 93, he was busily teaching adult filipino immigrants to read through his church.  If you can blame him for his behavior as a young man, it has to be faulting him for lacking the character to stand against everything he was ever taught or experienced. 

I specifically mentioned this problem in the post you referenced, and then several other posters, like Caroline PF, came along to make the exact same point.  Women are also biased against women, through no fault of their own, because that is how they are socialized.  It takes work to overcome these biases, and one of the important early steps is recognizing just how pervasive they are, effecting everyone in ways both obvious and subtle.  Men aren't born wanting to be chauvinists, they are raised that way.  White people aren't born racists, either.  They have these ugly ideas thrust upon them at a time when they still wholeheartedly believe in Santa Clause, and I'm not sure you can blame them for it.  Racism, like sexism, is a systemic problem built into the fabric of our world and it has to be fought on person by person basis.  Some racists, like some sexists, openly embrace their evil side for personal benefit.  Others, though, only embrace it because they don't know any better and those are the people you lose when you act like you have in this thread.  They are potential allies and you're driving them away, and I just need to stop helping you do it.

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We all live in a system that reinforces gender inequality, whether we like it or not, and we can all work to change it but we can't pretend we live apart from it.

Caroline PF

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #131 on: October 10, 2018, 02:47:15 PM »
I have spent the last few days struggling with this topic, and ultimately I'm upset because I feel like I've been cast out of my tribe, and forced to consider if I ever belonged there in the first place.

@sol, you belong. Please don't leave us. Our society desperately needs feminism, as both men and women are hurt by the effects of patriarchy, and women need male allies.

For what it's worth, your post was not wrong. Tone matters, and the wrong tone can drive people away. And the feminists' reactions were also not completely wrong. To explain, let me use racism as an analogy.


As you are probably aware, black men are pulled over by cops on an alarmingly regular basis, even if they weren't doing anything wrong. Sometimes the black driver gets angry and confrontative with the police officer. Sometimes those situations end badly for the black man. And when everyone discusses it after the fact, you always hear someone say, 'why did he talk back? If he had just been polite, nothing bad would've happened. I am always polite in my interactions with the police."

Well, it's easy to be polite when you can count the number of police interactions in your life on one hand. And when you have never been pulled over for no reason. But many of these individuals have been pulled over 50 or 100 times or more. And they were probably polite for the first 40 or 80 times. But everyone has a breaking point.

So do we blame the black man who reached his breaking point, or do we blame the society/systemic racism for driving him to his breaking point? Is the answer that black people need to better control themselves, or do we instead need to change society?


It's similar for women. We are socialized and taught very early that we have to control not only our emotions, but the emotions of the men around us. It is dangerous to make men angry, and if a man is angry or sad, it is our job to make him feel better. Well, we all have a breaking point, where we no longer care about soothing others' feelings. And I think Kris, and former player, and others reached that breaking point in this thread.

So is the solution for Kris and the others to control their emotions better? Or do we need to instead work on changing society so as to not push women to their breaking points?

So, yes, you are right that we need to control our tone, and not piss off men. But sometimes we won't have any spoons left, and we're going to end up pissing off men.


I'm sorry that you were the target, Sol. Even though you were right, the appropriate response after being told you weren't being helpful* was "I'm sorry that I made things worse", instead of getting defensive.

After all, it is possible to be right, and still not helpful.

* This applies to men trying to help women, whites trying to help POC, straight trying to help the LGBTQ, and the able trying to help differently abled. If you're told that what you're doing isn't helpful, just stop. And apologize.

dustinst22

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #132 on: October 10, 2018, 02:53:12 PM »
Call me insane, but to me Sol is the only person making logical sense in this thread.  And I disagree with him often.  I think others agree with this but are afraid to express it here.  He's rational, level headed (in my view), and not afraid to express an unpopular stance in this crowd.  And he's getting mobbed for it.  Much easier to just go along with the crowd and appeal to raw emotion.  Seems to me we should appreciate those willing to debate on reason rather than emotion.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2018, 03:01:11 PM by dustinst22 »

Watchmaker

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #133 on: October 10, 2018, 03:01:26 PM »
I have spent the last few days struggling with this topic, and ultimately I'm upset because I feel like I've been cast out of my tribe, and forced to consider if I ever belonged there in the first place.

@sol, you belong. Please don't leave us. Our society desperately needs feminism, as both men and women are hurt by the effects of patriarchy, and women need male allies.

For what it's worth, your post was not wrong. Tone matters, and the wrong tone can drive people away. And the feminists' reactions were also not completely wrong. To explain, let me use racism as an analogy.

I had a decently long reply typed out, but Caroline PF has done a better job of saying it that I was.

I should only speak for myself, but I am on record hoping your stay in the conversation. I don't find your original position offensive either: I think it can be a valid topic of conversation. But "not all men" has been used to derail many conversations, in the same way "all lives matter" is used, and so I can understand that many women just don't want to hear that. And if Kris and former player are angrier than you are, it may be because they have more reason to be.

And you aren't either Sol.
That's a bold statement, and one I disagree with.  You don't know me or my story.

Of course I can't know that in the same way I know I am not the victim of racism, but I believe what I said to be true. Are you a cis white male? If you are, then I believe you have benefited (unintentionally) from sexism more than you could possible been hurt by it.

gaja

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #134 on: October 10, 2018, 03:02:21 PM »
No. I did not. I can understand that you could read it like that, if you skipped through my posts because you already were angry. But no.

Let's review!

If I’m talking climate change with sceptics, and they pull out the “scientists out to get money” it is usually time to wrap up my efforts to have a constructive dialogue. The same goes for vaccines and autism. “Not all men” is another of these markers for me.

Yes. Let us review. But maybe we could include the first part of that post, where I clearly state that my opinions regarding the phrase “not all men” are not related to you personally:

“Never claimed you were the one saying/yelling “not all men”. No irony either. Simply trying to explain where the frustration comes from, and why your (honest and decent) efforts to mediate, will fail. Dialogue with different types of stakeholders, from different parts of the society, anchoring processes, and the psychological processes needed to change peoples minds, are some of my major fields of interest (and work). Unfortunately, English is my fourth language, so it is not always easy to explain clearly what I mean.”

Feel free to continue to be angry at a stranger that might not be communicating clearly enough in a foreign language. Just be aware that the malintent is something that you are reading, not something I knowingly wrote.

partgypsy

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #135 on: October 10, 2018, 03:04:06 PM »
Not to be an apologist for men who find it hard to believe that when another man is credibly accused of rape, to maybe take the woman at her word.

Us females of a certain age, grew up with certain attitudes.  My household while a free for all for the male sons (sexually active at a young age, doing drugs and not obeying any kind of curfew) and parents looked the other way, otoh the female daughters were not supposed to even date in HS. yep no prom for me. While "boys will be boys", there were "good" girls, and "bad" girls. The implication is that bad things don't happen to "good girls" while "bad girls" get what is coming to them and deserve no sympathy or compassion. It's basically superstitious behavior. So some women yes, since perhaps they WERE able to avoid a sexual assault, now feel comfortable in their superstitious behavior that it could not happen to them and only happens to those that deserve it. No such comments about boy's behavior (and when I say boys I mean high school age male's behavior). Who knows? Maybe I could have become one of those type of women, if I had been sufficiently insulated.

Then you go out in the world, are a young adult, and as a female you can be walking across the street and have things yelled at you. You can be walking on the street and have a guy motion to you, pull out their dick and start masturbating to get a response.  You can be at a bar, having a beer with your boyfriend, surrounded by people, and when your boyfriend leaves for a minute the guy next to you says something obscene to you. When you start to work, if you are lucky, you get tips at what places are "cool" to work at and what places to avoid, because of - stories. The common ground, there was no outrage, ever at what the men did. Instead it was always to look inside ourselves for what we did to deserve that behavior. What we needed to do better to avoid those situations in the future. And to be relentlessly critical towards women, questioning their morals, behavior, and motivations if they got in trouble.
Anyways it's not just men. Women get brainwashed too.     
« Last Edit: October 10, 2018, 04:12:00 PM by partgypsy »

Watchmaker

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #136 on: October 10, 2018, 03:05:22 PM »
Call me insane, but to me Sol is the only person making logical sense in this thread.  And I disagree with him often.  I think others agree with this but are afraid to express it here.  He's rational, level headed (in my view), and not afraid to express an unpopular stance in this crowd.  And he's getting mobbed for it.  Much easier to just go along with the crowd and appeal to raw emotion.  Seems to me we should appreciate those willing to debate on reason rather than emotion.

I don't feel like Sol is being mobbed. Things got a bit intense there, but lots of us are still respectfully engaging, including Kris, former player, gaja, Caroline Pf, and Sol himself.

dustinst22

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #137 on: October 10, 2018, 03:07:12 PM »

Things got a bit intense there, but lots of us are still respectfully engaging, including Kris, former player, gaja, Caroline Pf, and Sol himself.

I disagree, based on what I've read in this thread.

Watchmaker

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #138 on: October 10, 2018, 03:28:06 PM »
* This applies to men trying to help women, whites trying to help POC, straight trying to help the LGBTQ, and the able trying to help differently abled. If you're told that what you're doing isn't helpful, just stop. And apologize.

In the interest of trying to show Sol that I'm not trying to attack or vilify him, I'd like to add that I've struggled with this type of thing.

By my nature, I tend to give people my opinion. And I am conflict-avoidant. I've been in exact situation Caroline PF uses above, where I said to a black man that the only correct way to deal with the police is politely and obediently. I've been embarrassed by being corrected to use they pronouns for someone I was discussing with a third party. I've doubted my SO when she's told me of some sexist comment a mutual friend made (because he doesn't say those things in front of me).

It happens. You live and you learn.

J Boogie

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #139 on: October 10, 2018, 03:38:33 PM »
Another vote for Sol belonging.

Sol, you're a good thinker and a good person. You apply reason and rationality to everything, and that got you into trouble here.

I think the dilemma here is that you can't be both an ally of marginalized groups and have the mental clarity of an independent minded impartial observer. There's a conflict of interest there. If you're an ally, you direct your intellect towards the interests of that group when thinking about the subject.

To me, identifying as an ally seems like little more than uploading someone else's thoughts into your brain and parroting them out to people who look like you. That and identifying microaggressions and subtle instances of bigotry that you can call out. Think about how often that happens here. Why the hell do we do this? What kind of points are we scoring when we catch someone saying something we shoehorn into the category of sexist? Who benefits? To Sol's point, this doesn't educate, it infuriates and alienates.

I think we can all agree, even those of us who are religious, that it's super annoying being evangelized to and doubly annoying if the evangelizer is telling you that you're sinning. Calling out microaggressions is just the modern version of street preaching for the modern religion of a progressive society.






former player

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #140 on: October 10, 2018, 03:51:23 PM »
sol, would it help you if you changed your words to Kris in reply #65 from talking about sexism to talking about racism?   For instance, as a white person would you really have told a person of colour "white people are unwilling victims in these problems too"?

In the context of that discussion?  Yes, absolutely,

Well, in the context of the discussion you were doing the equivalent of being a white person telling a black person who had been attacked by a white person that they should consider the feelings of the white person when responding because the white person was a victim too.

As an academic discussion at the right time and place the point could be an interesting starting point.  In context, as many people have now tried to tell you, then no.




« Last Edit: October 10, 2018, 03:56:09 PM by former player »

Watchmaker

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #141 on: October 10, 2018, 03:53:30 PM »
I think the dilemma here is that you can't be both an ally of marginalized groups and have the mental clarity of an independent minded impartial observer. There's a conflict of interest there. If you're an ally, you direct your intellect towards the interests of that group when thinking about the subject.

To me, identifying as an ally seems like little more than uploading someone else's thoughts into your brain and parroting them out to people who look like you. That and identifying microaggressions and subtle instances of bigotry that you can call out.

I don't agree with this part at all, except perhaps to say that might be what allyship looks like when done wrongly.

The purpose of being an ally is not to subjugate your thoughts to someone else (or to some group consensus). The purpose is to help. When you try to help someone, you should help in the way they want help. And when you are trying to help, you shouldn't bring them new burdens to carry-- you should relieve them of burdens.

It doesn't mean you have to agree with them on everything, and it doesn't mean you can't offer your own opinions, but you should do so in a thoughtful way.

dustinst22

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #142 on: October 10, 2018, 03:55:58 PM »
Calling out microaggressions is just the modern version of street preaching for the modern religion of a progressive society.

Well said.  How ironic that a leftist group that is largely non-religious has taken on some of the very same characteristics of the religious hard right.

J Boogie

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #143 on: October 10, 2018, 04:20:34 PM »
I think the dilemma here is that you can't be both an ally of marginalized groups and have the mental clarity of an independent minded impartial observer. There's a conflict of interest there. If you're an ally, you direct your intellect towards the interests of that group when thinking about the subject.

To me, identifying as an ally seems like little more than uploading someone else's thoughts into your brain and parroting them out to people who look like you. That and identifying microaggressions and subtle instances of bigotry that you can call out.

I don't agree with this part at all, except perhaps to say that might be what allyship looks like when done wrongly.

The purpose of being an ally is not to subjugate your thoughts to someone else (or to some group consensus). The purpose is to help. When you try to help someone, you should help in the way they want help. And when you are trying to help, you shouldn't bring them new burdens to carry-- you should relieve them of burdens.

It doesn't mean you have to agree with them on everything, and it doesn't mean you can't offer your own opinions, but you should do so in a thoughtful way.

Do you agree with the other part? That being an ally and being a impartial observer are incompatible?

I guess what you're proposing would depend on the open mindedness and objectivity of the group that an ally sought to engage with (as well as the aforementioned tact of the ally).

I have seen far more insistence on accepting dogma, recognizing white and male privilege and atoning for it, and far less interest in rational thought and exploring.

Might just be what I read on internet forums though :)

Pigeon

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #144 on: October 10, 2018, 04:37:57 PM »
What Carolyn PF said, exactly.

Sol, we know you are a good guy and an ally, and we appreciate that and don't want you to stop being one.  I will admit that my jaw hit my keyboard when I read your responses in this thread because I don't think they reflect what I've seen of you before.

When you get accused of being shrill or hysterical or pre-menstrual every time you express anger or frustration or get chastised by strange men for not smiling enough it gets old.  Really old. 

GuitarStv

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #145 on: October 10, 2018, 05:21:30 PM »
At the same time though for this instance I'm not entirely sure why it bothers some men when sweeping generalizations are made.  I read them myself, think "Meh.  Doesn't apply to me, they must be talking about other men." and go about my day.

That doesn't bother me.  In fact I started out my reply to Tom with the "don't let it bother you, they don't mean you."

What bothers me is the total preponderance of participants here who seem fine with being demeaning towards men who are trying to help.  We need to come together on this issue, and I think it's counterproductive to push people away.  When I tried to raise that point, I was met with much more pushing and zero engagement on the substance. 

Okay, I'm listening.  My contributions here are widely considered unhelpful, even insulting.  That was not my intention, but intentions don't matter much in this case.  Since the majority of contributors here seem to think that I'm the one being a jerk here, I'll stop.  That was my plan two days ago anyway, when it first became clear my views on this topic were unwelcome.

Was the comment really demeaning towards men who are trying to help?  I get how theoretically one could take offense . . . As mentioned though, I didn't feel demeaned by it.  I don't think you're being a jerk . . . but am still somewhat confused by the level of concern raised over an overly broad (and indeed even mildly sexist) but relatively innocuous statement.  I figure that most women put up with far worse on a daily basis without complaint.

Poundwise

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #146 on: October 11, 2018, 08:26:26 AM »
Cautiously dipping in toe, did not read through the whole thread.

If I were you "good guys" I'd lay low for a while.  From what I'm hearing in real life and in the virtual world, women are simply fed up with behaviors that we've put up with for a long time.  And unfortunately we're lashing out at our nearest and dearest.

For instance, a few days ago I got into an argument (unusually) with my husband about my statement that 100% of women I know have been subject to unwanted sexual touching from men. He simply could not, would not, believe it.  I wasn't saying that in every case it caused lifelong scarring, but it's just a fact of life for women. And we're done with it.

I was angry and ranting, and he just wanted me to calm down, so he was saying that I had to see this, and I ought to admit that.  And of course the first part of active listening is that discounting the feelings of another person just doesn't work; acknowledge the feelings because they exist and cannot be changed immediately; the best you can do is suggest a strategy to deal with the issue. He failed to do this; told me how I should feel. I probably shouldn't have lost my temper, but it was upsetting to see him discount my experiences and those told to me by my friends over the last weeks.

We are in the process of moving to another level.

Example:When slavery was illegal, all you had to do to be an ally was to not support slavery; you could believe that African ancestry meant lower intelligence, you could be in favor of segregation. Later, an ally could oppose segregation, but might not support affirmative action. Over time the bar has moved, so that it's not enough to simply expect that Black Americans should have equal opportunities; being an ally means acknowledging that they still have a considerable distance to go especially in terms of getting harassed, jailed, and shot by police.

Similarly, for women, once you could simply be in favor of women voting or being able to have their own credit card  (that just happened in 1974), and be an ally.  Later, an ally supported women in their push for equal rights.  The bar has moved. Now, an ally needs to believe us when we tell you how common molestation by men is, and how we are held to a sterner standard for comportment and speech than men.

It's a positive thing that the bar is moving. But it's hard on people who previously were in good conscience with themselves and know that they are much better than average, to be told that they have to adjust their thinking.

I do think that good guys like sol should be celebrated, maybe once decency is restored to our government.  https://www.vox.com/first-person/2018/10/4/17933530/sexual-assault-me-too

Anyway, to answer the first question: an apology/turning your life around becomes enough when you show true regret and work to prevent further harm of the type you originally caused. Like this guy: https://www.npr.org/2018/01/18/578745514/a-former-neo-nazi-explains-why-hate-drew-him-in-and-how-he-got-out
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 08:41:25 AM by Poundwise »

Watchmaker

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #147 on: October 11, 2018, 09:13:46 AM »
Do you agree with the other part? That being an ally and being a impartial observer are incompatible?

I guess I'm not entirely clear what is meant by impartial observer. The very definition of an ally is that I agree with them-- I'm not impartial and I'm trying to do more than just observe-- I'm trying to help.

If it just means do I form my own opinions about things, do I sometimes disagree with the tactics used, and do I voice those opinions (when I think it is helpful)? Then sure, that's what I do.

MasterStache

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #148 on: October 11, 2018, 09:29:12 AM »
Can't we all just get along ( :

I think we can all agree the top was just in!
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 11:37:18 AM by MasterStache »

Watchmaker

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Re: When does an apology/turning your life around become "enough"?
« Reply #149 on: October 11, 2018, 09:33:23 AM »
To address the original question of the thread--

I don't think there needs to be any kind of societal rule for this. Everyone makes there own personal judgement, and that is that. Some people will never forgive (that is their right). Others will move on rapidly (also up to them).

But for me personally, an apology is necessary but not sufficient. They have to show real change in their life. Derek Black (former white supremacist mentioned above)  is a good example of someone committing to offset the bad they had done in whatever way possible.

If you do something truly horrible (kill someone, rape, white supremacist, etc) I don't believe you should ever be able to go back to a "normal" life.