Author Topic: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?  (Read 59434 times)

MoneyCat

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I was just thinking today about how rampant, unfettered piracy and ad-block plug-ins forced me to give up on my dream of being a professional writer. Looking around, technology has pretty much laid waste to every career in the arts in the United States. It was never an easy career path but now it's basically like trying to make a living by playing slot machines at a casino.

What do you think it would take to bring back the arts as professional careers? Would we have to abridge the 1st Amendment? Would we have to adopt draconian copyright laws like some other nations have?

(And don't try to say that the arts are still great career fields. Just look around. 'Nuff said.)

rubybeth

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2016, 01:57:48 PM »
Universal basic income.

Watchmaker

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2016, 02:05:53 PM »
This is just me talking off the top of my head, but let me question your premise a little:

Were the arts ever a good career choice (from a financial perspective)?  Isn't it the case that the vast majority of artists at any point in history have failed to make a living with their art?  Through a lot of Western History, weren't the arts largest dependent on a patronage model?

[Please, correct me if I'm wrong--I'm not a historian.]

I actually think patronage is still a strong model.  What do you think of Patreon?  I use it to support a couple things that are quite niche, but through Patreon the makers are earning some kind of a living.  Kickstarter, although not quite intended for this use has been often used to similar effect.  These systems enable fans to pay more then they could through a simple media sale (and more efficiently).

To me, this seems more natural anyway.  I have musicians I like okay and ones I love and want to give lots of money to.  But I normally don't have a way of paying more that the cost of a song download or concert ticket.  I don't want to buy a t-shirt at the concert, and it's inefficient anyway (they only get a few bucks more for my $25 purchase). I'd rather just give them more money. 

Watchmaker

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2016, 02:07:44 PM »
Universal basic income.

This was posted while I was writing my reply.  I think this is an excellent answer.  Buckminster Fuller said it well in Critical Path:

“We should do away with the absolutely specious notion that everybody has to earn a living. It is a fact today that one in ten thousand of us can make a technological breakthrough capable of supporting all the rest. The youth of today are absolutely right in recognizing this nonsense of earning a living. We keep inventing jobs because of this false idea that everybody has to be employed at some kind of drudgery because, according to Malthusian Darwinian theory he must justify his right to exist. So we have inspectors of inspectors and people making instruments for inspectors to inspect inspectors. The true business of people should be to go back to school and think about whatever it was they were thinking about before somebody came along and told them they had to earn a living.”

MoneyCat

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2016, 08:57:12 PM »
Guaranteed minimum income would be great for artists, but it has no realistic chance of becoming reality in the United States. Far too many people complaining that all those "welfare queens" (code word for 'black people') would be stealing all the money that Donald Trump worked so hard to make. It could possibly happen in some of those hippie Scandinavian countries who don't need to have a military because the US protects them, though.

Minimum guaranteed income would be great, because basically everyone is stealing the work that musicians, visual artists, actors, writers, etc. produce. I like to go to art shows and the artists aren't making any money anymore because people just walk up and take photos of their work with camera phones and then walk away, instead of paying for prints of the art. The artists only make money now on commissioned art and fewer people are paying for that when they can take photos and print stuff off at home to stick on their walls.

It sucks.

expatartist

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2016, 09:51:05 PM »
I was just thinking today about how rampant, unfettered piracy and ad-block plug-ins forced me to give up on my dream of being a professional writer. Looking around, technology has pretty much laid waste to every career in the arts in the United States. It was never an easy career path but now it's basically like trying to make a living by playing slot machines at a casino.

What do you think it would take to bring back the arts as professional careers? Would we have to abridge the 1st Amendment? Would we have to adopt draconian copyright laws like some other nations have?

(And don't try to say that the arts are still great career fields. Just look around. 'Nuff said.)

It depends on what you mean by "the arts". It's a huge field. Since I'm in the visual arts, I'll stick to that.

There are many different roles, most fall under three categories:
* 1 - the makers (a.k.a. people who call themselves artists, most trained, others spectacularly good at what they do/self-promotion)
* 2 - those who display the work (galleries commercial and non-profit, some artist-run, other orgs, curators)
* 3 - and those who acquire it (collectors, museums, collections, archives).

Contemporary visual arts - installation, video art, performance art, painting in all its diverse manifestations - has become highly professionalized, perhaps more than ever before. This explains in part its remoteness from everyday life. Its inaccessibility ('my kid could do that!' - no, not really) increases the apparent rarity and sophistication of what is considered contemporary art. There is more money and there are more gatekeepers to 'the artworld' than ever. This has created a lot of jobs in second category. Design and illustration fields work differently btw.

Artists have not historically been 'professionals' - people with secure jobs and regular salaries. They have always been entrepreneurs, then as now intermediaries between the upper class (patrons) and the working class (models, painting subjects, neighbors). In the European Renaissance, artists were designers, hustlers, and businessmen who ran studios with apprentices who learned from their masters and eventually opened their own. The patron model is based on an artist's appeal to wealthy benefactors. If your work doesn't appeal to someone with money - whether a collector or an institution (university, museum, etc, your work must be in fashion) you won't make a living at it, then or now.

The 'starving artist' trope comes from 19th century Romanticism, perpetuated by later artists, gallerists (who like to spin stories of artists who appeal to collectors) and far too many of my uni professors, and is a relatively new role for the artist in society.

ender

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2016, 10:12:32 PM »
I was just thinking today about how rampant, unfettered piracy and ad-block plug-ins forced me to give up on my dream of being a professional writer. Looking around, technology has pretty much laid waste to every career in the arts in the United States. It was never an easy career path but now it's basically like trying to make a living by playing slot machines at a casino.

What do you think it would take to bring back the arts as professional careers? Would we have to abridge the 1st Amendment? Would we have to adopt draconian copyright laws like some other nations have?

(And don't try to say that the arts are still great career fields. Just look around. 'Nuff said.)

Are you kidding me?

It's easier to attempt to become a professional writer today than it ever has been before. Of course this increases competition for said positions and makes it so a smaller percentage of people can succeed, so if your thought was "find rich patron, become author!" then yeah, probably won't work, but I'm astonished you are implying that pre-Internet it was somehow easier to become a professional writer.

bls shows an increase in authors expected - http://www.bls.gov/ooh/media-and-communication/writers-and-authors.htm


A non-insignificant number of people here have published and made money off ebooks they have sold.

GuitarStv

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2016, 06:16:30 AM »
I guess it depends on what you consider art to be.  If you're thinking of making a career by sequestering yourself for ten years and then bringing out the greatest book/painting/piece of music the world has ever seen . . . you're probably going to be unhappy (and poor).  Doing that is very low percentage odds.  If you're willing to look for a job that utilizes artistic ability to provide regular income, there are many out there.

There has always, and will always continue to be a demand for great art.  Every product sold has to go through a design phase, and it's rare for a design to be purely functional.  Form carries tremendous value.  Every movie, video game, and TV show needs a musical score.  Writing is necessary for everything . . . from technical writing, to the descriptive bits in magazines, blogs, scripts, plots, etc.  There are a lot of places to apply art if you are willing to look for them.

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2016, 10:42:24 PM »
Looking around, technology has pretty much laid waste to every career in the arts in the United States.

As someone who does web design/development for a living, I have to disagree with this! Every company needs a website, and someone needs to design it. Those websites need also written content and photography, along with someone to handle writing their social media and blog/news items.

Technological advancement has especially opened up new artistic possibilities for those with an entrepreneurial spirit. You can teach yourself Wordpress for free online and have your own website company. Anyone who wants to write a novel but can't get into a publishing house can self-publish and promote their own work online. Musicians don't have to wait to get discovered by a record label - they can publish and distribute music online and build a following on their own. Same with visual artists, you can scan and upload your works and sell on-demand on canvas/paper/t-shirts/etc. very easily.

MoneyCat

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2016, 10:59:53 PM »
Looking around, technology has pretty much laid waste to every career in the arts in the United States.

As someone who does web design/development for a living, I have to disagree with this! Every company needs a website, and someone needs to design it. Those websites need also written content and photography, along with someone to handle writing their social media and blog/news items.

Technological advancement has especially opened up new artistic possibilities for those with an entrepreneurial spirit. You can teach yourself Wordpress for free online and have your own website company. Anyone who wants to write a novel but can't get into a publishing house can self-publish and promote their own work online. Musicians don't have to wait to get discovered by a record label - they can publish and distribute music online and build a following on their own. Same with visual artists, you can scan and upload your works and sell on-demand on canvas/paper/t-shirts/etc. very easily.

Sorry, but you are completely incorrect about this. If the internet was so great for artists, then bands wouldn't need Pledge Music to beg for money to release albums and go on tour. Artists wouldn't need Patreon to beg for money from strangers to produce artwork. Blogs wouldn't either A.) Be going out of business every day due to loss of ad revenue to to ad-block plus, or B.) Become hysterical clickbait sites in a desperate attempt to get enough eyes that perhaps some of the readers wouldn't have ad-block plus. These are extremely bad times to be someone in a creative field.

Want to build websites for artists? Yes, that's lucrative. Do you know how to code? Hell, yeah, you can make a lot of money making some stupid pointless app that will be forgotten in a couple of weeks' time. The only way to really make any money right now is either through employable fields in STEM or through a business profiting off STEM. Everybody else is hustling just to survive.

Why do you think Sanders and Trump were so popular in this election cycle? There are a lot of desperate people out there.

gooki

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2016, 01:39:06 AM »
You sound pretty jaded?  What percent of your audience is using ad blockers?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 01:44:19 AM by gooki »

expatartist

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2016, 02:28:43 AM »
No one will pay you to do anything unless it's useful to them. "Useful" can also mean compelling, stimulating, what have you. People who are turned on by what you do with pay you for it. There are more ways to do this than ever before.

What successful creative people do is figure out how to mesh what they like to do with what someone - an individual, an org, a society, a niche or audience of some sort - finds interesting or moving enough to give $ for what they get out of it. This is true for everyone from Michelangelo (sponsored/tyrannized by popes and homicidal Italian nobility) to Billie Holiday (who worked within an exploitative recording system) to Neil Gaiman (who creates and collaborates in many forms on and offline).

It requires finding a context in which you produce or show work. Technology has changed the delivery in many ways and also expanded available options. Previous distribution channels are no longer relevant because new ones have taken over. The ways in which people consume culture change with every generation. This sucks for those stuck in previous ways of creating, but offers many possibilities for those willing to evolve the way they make work.

driftwood

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2016, 02:45:32 AM »
I was just thinking today about how rampant, unfettered piracy and ad-block plug-ins forced me to give up on my dream of being a professional writer. Looking around, technology has pretty much laid waste to every career in the arts in the United States. It was never an easy career path but now it's basically like trying to make a living by playing slot machines at a casino.

What do you think it would take to bring back the arts as professional careers? Would we have to abridge the 1st Amendment? Would we have to adopt draconian copyright laws like some other nations have?

(And don't try to say that the arts are still great career fields. Just look around. 'Nuff said.)

The arts have always been "like trying to make a living by playing slot machines at a casino".  It's a product that it totally at the whim of a fickle consumer and the whims of societal change.  That's why 'starving artist' is a well known phrase.  This field will always be a struggle because you want to produce something and hope people WANT to pay for it.  This is what separates art from other products that people NEED.  I'm not an artsy type but even the thought of trying to support myself with an art-based business terrifies me.

I concede that technology has changed the ability to make money off certain products.  Blogs... well they can be interesting for awhile but nobody stay interesting forever.  Even the MMM blog isn't regularly updated by posts that I enjoy nowadays.  The basics of MMM can be covered in a few posts and the application is up to the consumer. 

I guess the continuing issue is that if you have to art to sell you and your art will always be influenced by the demands of the market in order for you to survive.  If you are sponsored or FIRE or work another job you can be free to create whatever you want to create.  The limit in the second case is on the time/energy you have to devote to you art.

forumname123

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2016, 03:05:03 AM »
Stop whining.

There are plenty of artists and other creative types doing just fine, so if you're not one of them then maybe you just aren't good enough?

Stop blaming the system for not making it easy to do what you want to do, and do it anyway! Nothing "forced" you to give up your dream of being a professional writer, and your comment about everybody with a non-STEM career "hustling to survive" is laughable.

WerKater

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2016, 03:38:58 AM »
Looking around, technology has pretty much laid waste to every career in the arts in the United States.

As someone who does web design/development for a living, I have to disagree with this! Every company needs a website, and someone needs to design it. Those websites need also written content and photography, along with someone to handle writing their social media and blog/news items.

Technological advancement has especially opened up new artistic possibilities for those with an entrepreneurial spirit. You can teach yourself Wordpress for free online and have your own website company. Anyone who wants to write a novel but can't get into a publishing house can self-publish and promote their own work online. Musicians don't have to wait to get discovered by a record label - they can publish and distribute music online and build a following on their own. Same with visual artists, you can scan and upload your works and sell on-demand on canvas/paper/t-shirts/etc. very easily.

Sorry, but you are completely incorrect about this. If the internet was so great for artists, then bands wouldn't need Pledge Music to beg for money to release albums and go on tour. Artists wouldn't need Patreon to beg for money from strangers to produce artwork.

Without the internet, you would probably not have heard about most of those bands and artists. Do you think that before the internet, everyone and their cat could just go on a tour or release an album? Where did the upfront money for that come from? I would guess that it is now much easier for someone just starting out as an artist, because they have these funding options that simply did not exist 20 years ago. Yes, most of them won't get rich. Most of them probably won't even be able to make a living with art. And that was always the case.

By the way, the company I work for begs strangers for money all the time. Except they call that "marketing" and "investor relations". And they call these strangers "customers" and "investors".

ender

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2016, 06:44:58 AM »
Without the internet, you would probably not have heard about most of those bands and artists. Do you think that before the internet, everyone and their cat could just go on a tour or release an album? Where did the upfront money for that come from? I would guess that it is now much easier for someone just starting out as an artist, because they have these funding options that simply did not exist 20 years ago. Yes, most of them won't get rich. Most of them probably won't even be able to make a living with art. And that was always the case.

By the way, the company I work for begs strangers for money all the time. Except they call that "marketing" and "investor relations". And they call these strangers "customers" and "investors".

+1

I used to work at a local concert venue. Most bands that came in were able to reach people and draw audiences exclusively because of the Internet.

former player

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2016, 08:57:45 AM »
MoneyCat, I'm sorry you had to give up your dream.  Also that posters here seem to be going for more tough than love.

I have an unformed theory that a generation of scientists and engineers tends to spawn a generation of artists and writers.  If I'm right, add that to the expansion of higher education in the arts and there is an oversupply which means that some people, not always the least deserving, will get squeezed out of the arts marketplace.  Unfortunately I don't have an answer for it, except that to say that if you are a writer, you are a writer whether or not you are paid for it.

EMP

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2016, 01:07:58 PM »
I love the irony of the engineers lecturing about how easy it is to make a living in the arts. 

I don't know that I believe the arts have ever been profitable, but I do think 40 years ago you could support a modest lifestyle as an artist.  The concentration of wealth really inhibits the arts, to my mind. 

Universal basic income, all the way. 

ketchup

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2016, 01:59:09 PM »
Disclaimer: I work in IT.  PowerShell is the opposite of art.

Art has always been financially successful due to either appealing to rich people (Mozart, Ancel Adams) or appealing to the masses (The Beatles, Stephen King).  I don't think that's changed much.

My girlfriend has forged for herself a successful photography career with more of the Mozart model, selling her work 90% of the time to people with a LOT more money than us.

It's certainly easier than appealing to the masses. 

But either way, technology has only made it more accessible.  If it weren't for the internet, my girlfriend would have had to work a lot harder and take a lot longer to build the reputation and client base that she has, if it could have been done at all.  The internet also makes her communication and distribution far more fast and efficient than it would otherwise be.

Conversely, it means every bum with a camera thinks they're a photographer (and the equivalent for other arts), so you have to work harder to stand out from the crowd of mediocrity.  That's not necessarily a bad thing.  Just means everyone's got a shot to be seen, even if you suck at first.

GuitarStv

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2016, 07:14:02 AM »
I love the irony of the engineers lecturing about how easy it is to make a living in the arts. 

I don't know that I believe the arts have ever been profitable, but I do think 40 years ago you could support a modest lifestyle as an artist.  The concentration of wealth really inhibits the arts, to my mind. 

Universal basic income, all the way.

I don't think anyone was arguing that it was easy.  Just that profitable careers in arts do exist.

Jack

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2016, 09:34:07 AM »
First of all, when the supply of a product is infinite, price tends towards zero. The Internet has proven that there is a never-ending stampede of artists perfectly happy to give their art to the Public Domain for free. If you can't compete with free, too bad: you are not entitled to force the world to support your art.

Second, copyright is inherently evil: it is both a subversion of the free market (a copyright is literally a government-granted monopoly, after all) and a restriction of free speech. If it is no longer necessary -- and it isn't, as I said above -- then it should be abolished.

Third, people are basically forced to block ads these days because the advertising industry is infested with literal criminals who use the ad networks to distribute malware. If you can't get ad revenue for your site it's your own damn fault for aiding and abetting criminal behavior.

Midwest

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2016, 09:40:31 AM »


Second, copyright is inherently evil: it is both a subversion of the free market (a copyright is literally a government-granted monopoly, after all) and a restriction of free speech. If it is no longer necessary -- and it isn't, as I said above -- then it should be abolished.


How should artists make money without copyrights?  I think the DMCA is evil, but people should own their creations via copyright.

deadlymonkey

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2016, 09:50:02 AM »
Copyrights are important for artists, extending copyrights forever (AKA the Disney rule) is abhorrent.  Copyright should never extend past the creator's death.

Jack

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2016, 10:09:14 AM »
How should artists make money without copyrights?

First of all, your question presupposes that the ability for artists to make money is important to society. I reject that assumption.

Second, they can make money the same way they did before copyright existed (i.e., most of human history): patronage, being paid for live performance, etc.

people should own their creations via copyright.

That's a common way of thinking, but exactly backwards.

Art, in aggregate, is culture. All ideas are inherently "owned" by society as a whole, in the Public Domain. Copyright was only ever intended to be a temporary loan to the artist from the public, in order to incentivize the creation of more art than there would have been otherwise.

Fundamentally, ideas are the opposite of property: property is by definition scarce, such that only one person (the owner) can control it and use it at a time. Ideas are not like that. Not only can they be freely and infinitely shared without being removed from the person doing the sharing, their value is created by that sharing and increases because of it.

Allowing people to "own" ideas is a quick path to thoughtcrime and the creation of a dystopian police state to persecute it.

Midwest

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2016, 10:22:04 AM »
How should artists make money without copyrights?

First of all, your question presupposes that the ability for artists to make money is important to society. I reject that assumption.

I believe art and ideas are important to society. Copyright laws and patents incentivize creators.  I believe both copyright law and patents have gone too far recently (DMCA is a good example), but in my opinion are necessary in some form.

Second, they can make money the same way they did before copyright existed (i.e., most of human history): patronage, being paid for live performance, etc.

Copyright law followed the invention of the printing press.  it's easy to control art/ideas when they can't be distributed.  If you can't control distribution of you creations, creation decreases.

people should own their creations via copyright.


That's a common way of thinking, but exactly backwards.

Art, in aggregate, is culture. All ideas are inherently "owned" by society as a whole, in the Public Domain. Copyright was only ever intended to be a temporary loan to the artist from the public, in order to incentivize the creation of more art than there would have been otherwise.

Fundamentally, ideas are the opposite of property: property is by definition scarce, such that only one person (the owner) can control it and use it at a time. Ideas are not like that. Not only can they be freely and infinitely shared without being removed from the person doing the sharing, their value is created by that sharing and increases because of it.

Allowing people to "own" ideas is a quick path to thoughtcrime and the creation of a dystopian police state to persecute it.

Throwing out all copyright law is an over reaction to the current situation (the DMCA and similar laws). 

ketchup

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2016, 10:22:48 AM »
How should artists make money without copyrights?

First of all, your question presupposes that the ability for artists to make money is important to society. I reject that assumption.

Second, they can make money the same way they did before copyright existed (i.e., most of human history): patronage, being paid for live performance, etc.

people should own their creations via copyright.

That's a common way of thinking, but exactly backwards.

Art, in aggregate, is culture. All ideas are inherently "owned" by society as a whole, in the Public Domain. Copyright was only ever intended to be a temporary loan to the artist from the public, in order to incentivize the creation of more art than there would have been otherwise.

Fundamentally, ideas are the opposite of property: property is by definition scarce, such that only one person (the owner) can control it and use it at a time. Ideas are not like that. Not only can they be freely and infinitely shared without being removed from the person doing the sharing, their value is created by that sharing and increases because of it.

Allowing people to "own" ideas is a quick path to thoughtcrime and the creation of a dystopian police state to persecute it.
So Purina shouldn't have to ask permission from the photographer before using a photo (paid for by someone else) on an advertisement for dog food?

I think Disney-style copyright is absurd, but copyright should exist in some form.

GuitarStv

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2016, 11:16:28 AM »
How should artists make money without copyrights?

First of all, your question presupposes that the ability for artists to make money is important to society. I reject that assumption.

Second, they can make money the same way they did before copyright existed (i.e., most of human history): patronage, being paid for live performance, etc.

people should own their creations via copyright.

That's a common way of thinking, but exactly backwards.

Art, in aggregate, is culture. All ideas are inherently "owned" by society as a whole, in the Public Domain. Copyright was only ever intended to be a temporary loan to the artist from the public, in order to incentivize the creation of more art than there would have been otherwise.

Fundamentally, ideas are the opposite of property: property is by definition scarce, such that only one person (the owner) can control it and use it at a time. Ideas are not like that. Not only can they be freely and infinitely shared without being removed from the person doing the sharing, their value is created by that sharing and increases because of it.

Allowing people to "own" ideas is a quick path to thoughtcrime and the creation of a dystopian police state to persecute it.
So Purina shouldn't have to ask permission from the photographer before using a photo (paid for by someone else) on an advertisement for dog food?

I think Disney-style copyright is absurd, but copyright should exist in some form.

You're thinking too small.  NAMBLA should be allowed to go to Jack's facebook page and take a smiling picture of him holding his cousin's child at a birthday party to use for all their advertising materials.

2buttons

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #27 on: August 26, 2016, 11:31:43 AM »
Maybe you could ask JK Rowling? I am no expert, but I think she is an artist, and she appears to be squeaking by.   

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #28 on: August 26, 2016, 11:39:15 AM »
How should artists make money without copyrights?

First of all, your question presupposes that the ability for artists to make money is important to society. I reject that assumption.

I believe art and ideas are important to society. Copyright laws and patents incentivize creators.  I believe both copyright law and patents have gone too far recently (DMCA is a good example), but in my opinion are necessary in some form.

"I believe X is important, therefore government should subsidize X" is an argument that could be applied to lots of things, and people can certainly disagree on which things are important enough to apply it to.

Kudos for recognizing that your opinion about copyright is in fact an opinion -- too many people (especially ones who haven't thought much about the issue and have instead been indoctrinated by "don't copy that floppy" and other such propaganda) don't realize that copyright isn't a natural right and that we have a choice about to what extent it exists.

You're thinking too small.  NAMBLA should be allowed to go to Jack's facebook page and take a smiling picture of him holding his cousin's child at a birthday party to use for all their advertising materials.

The problem with that situation is not the organization using an image created by somebody else, but rather that the organization would be implying endorsement by the person depicted in the image. It's an issue that should be addressed by defamation laws, not copyright.

Consider the converse of your argument: by claiming that the basis for prohibiting such a thing is copyright, you're suggesting that if NAMBLA instead simply drew a picture (so they held the copyright) of GuitarStv holding his cousin's child at a birthday party and used that for all their advertising materials, it would be perfectly fine.

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #29 on: August 26, 2016, 11:46:49 AM »
Maybe you could ask JK Rowling? I am no expert, but I think she is an artist, and she appears to be squeaking by.

I know that this was intended as a dismissive comment, but it actually brings up a good point: Artists have a much more skewed income distribution than, say, educators. You could end up a billionaire (like Rowling) or a multi-millionaire (any number of authors and musicians), or you could sustain a decent middle class lifestyle or end up dirt poor. Personally, I would like to see what the UBI could do to foster human creativity (not just in art, but science, technology, and other fields). But if you choose to be an artist in today's society, you should at least be aware that you're taking a greater risk of failure than most other fields.

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #30 on: August 26, 2016, 11:47:07 AM »
I think an interesting piece of data would be the percentage of fulltime artists and musicians over time.


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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #31 on: August 26, 2016, 11:56:40 AM »
Maybe you could ask JK Rowling? I am no expert, but I think she is an artist, and she appears to be squeaking by.

I know that this was intended as a dismissive comment, but it actually brings up a good point: Artists have a much more skewed income distribution than, say, educators. You could end up a billionaire (like Rowling) or a multi-millionaire (any number of authors and musicians), or you could sustain a decent middle class lifestyle or end up dirt poor. Personally, I would like to see what the UBI could do to foster human creativity (not just in art, but science, technology, and other fields). But if you choose to be an artist in today's society, you should at least be aware that you're taking a greater risk of failure than most other fields.

I understand your point and it's interesting, but I disagree. There are tons of artisists out there doing well.  They may not be an artist like old school painters, but there is tons of art being created that people buy all the time, and a lot of people working on art. In the general discussion area there is a thread on how to make tons of cash self publishing ebooks.

YouTube, Netflix, all sorts of commercial and indie media companies are paying serious cash for art.

OP's premise is absurd.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2016, 12:00:29 PM by 2buttons »

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #32 on: August 26, 2016, 12:04:03 PM »
Maybe you could ask JK Rowling? I am no expert, but I think she is an artist, and she appears to be squeaking by.

I know that this was intended as a dismissive comment, but it actually brings up a good point: Artists have a much more skewed income distribution than, say, educators. You could end up a billionaire (like Rowling) or a multi-millionaire (any number of authors and musicians), or you could sustain a decent middle class lifestyle or end up dirt poor. Personally, I would like to see what the UBI could do to foster human creativity (not just in art, but science, technology, and other fields). But if you choose to be an artist in today's society, you should at least be aware that you're taking a greater risk of failure than most other fields.

If the artists/creators are producing something society values, then they don't need UBI.  Educators a clear value to society.  A painter/musician only provides value if people likes their art.  You mention risk, educators have little risk of failure but limited upside.  Artists have a greater risk of failure and substantial upside.

Lastly, you can create while working to support yourself in a normal job.  As a taxpayer, I have no interest in paying people to create bad art and useless inventions.  i am, however, willing to reward art I like and useful inventions.

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #33 on: August 26, 2016, 12:46:27 PM »
Maybe you could ask JK Rowling? I am no expert, but I think she is an artist, and she appears to be squeaking by.

I know that this was intended as a dismissive comment, but it actually brings up a good point: Artists have a much more skewed income distribution than, say, educators. You could end up a billionaire (like Rowling) or a multi-millionaire (any number of authors and musicians), or you could sustain a decent middle class lifestyle or end up dirt poor. Personally, I would like to see what the UBI could do to foster human creativity (not just in art, but science, technology, and other fields). But if you choose to be an artist in today's society, you should at least be aware that you're taking a greater risk of failure than most other fields.

I understand your point and it's interesting, but I disagree. There are tons of artists out there doing well.  They may not be an artist like old school painters, but there is tons of art being created that people buy all the time, and a lot of people working on art. In the general discussion area there is a thread on how to make tons of cash self publishing ebooks.

Eh, I'm not really sure that we do disagree to any great extent. There are a lot of artists doing well. I think there are also a lot that don't do very well, and I agree that it's mostly because they don't create things that have obvious societal value. My primary point was that I don't necessarily have a whole lot of sympathy for "starving artists", because they mostly know what they're in for: It's a conscious decision to pursue a high risk/high reward career. On the other hand, I do question whether or not the "free market" is the ultimate arbiter of value, which also causes me to question whether or not I'm right to be unsympathetic. I dunno, I wasn't claiming to answer any questions, just pointing out an aspect of this discussion that I found interesting.

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2016, 12:29:41 AM »
I love the irony of the engineers lecturing about how easy it is to make a living in the arts. 

I don't know that I believe the arts have ever been profitable, but I do think 40 years ago you could support a modest lifestyle as an artist.  The concentration of wealth really inhibits the arts, to my mind. 

Universal basic income, all the way.

I don't think anyone was arguing that it was easy.  Just that profitable careers in arts do exist.

As someone pointed out, Rowling et al are doing well. No arguments there. How many people are able to sustain themselves in waiting/construction/uber-ing gigs that allow them the brain space to  continue working in the arts long enough to allow the creative pursuit to become the primary source of income?

Waiting tables is great until you get priced out of town by the yuppies. Or until you need health insurance. Or until you have to pick up so many extra shifts that you are too exhausted to be creative. So you devote your energies to something like web development. Good money there, right? And your boss will only expect you to work a straight 40 hours.  Those salary jobs never come with the expectation of 45-50+ hour work weeks, right? Still plenty of energy to devote to creation. Unless you want or need friends, family, exercise and/or clean laundry and home cooked meals.

That's just the supply side. With fewer and fewer people that have disposable income, more artists start chasing fewer patrons in a race to the bottom.

Forty years ago, you know when all of these smug boomer fucks were starting out, incomes went further and there were more dollars available for the market to capture.

Every artist I know either has parental financial support or cuts back to barely producing anything after a few years because of financial pressure. Or they end up burnt out on drugs from the amount of cocaine necessary to be a full time artist and have a full time j o b.

Regardless of job title, I believe we all have an innate desire to create. I think our relationship with work, at least in the US, is so highly dysfunctional that many people have lost touch with that aspect of humanity.

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #35 on: August 27, 2016, 01:53:04 AM »
I agree that:
1) It's easier than ever (any prior point in history) to make a living in an artistic field, and
2) Universal Basic Income would make it even easier to art full time, and open for all (and should be done anyways for a multitude of other reasons).

Nothing stopping you, IMO, besides yourself.  :)
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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #36 on: August 27, 2016, 08:46:44 AM »
There are two basic markets as one person pointed out earlier, rich patrons and the masses.

The middle ages had a very high level of income inequality.  The rich were fabulously rich and the poor were horribly poor.   There were not fat poor people in the middle ages. 

And look at all the art that was created via the patronage system!   Lots and lots of awesome art.

So, for those of you who think artists don't have a chance because the middle classes don't have "disposable income", think again.

Oh, by the way, the middle class have lots of disposable income and they dispose of it quite freely.  That's why most of them stay middle class instead of become rich, as any reader of this site should know.

I've been transitioning to do art for a career for some years.  I'm less than a year away.   I meet a lot of young people in college or just out of it.     There is now a movement to start teaching these folks basic business skills.  For a long time, they were taught nothing about how to run a business so a lot of them floundered.   Now, at least, they are getting some exposure to those very necessary skills.

I recently attended the SNAG conference in Asheville, NC.  SNAG is the Society of North American Goldsmiths.  Most conference topics were devoted to making a living in the arts.   Industry groups and publications have been providing that input for some years now.   

The key to making a living at art is to produce a product that will sell at a price that provides the income you want. 
If people don't like it, they won't pay the price.  If they fall in love with it and they have the money, they'll pay the price.   That's a lesson I learned from a successful artist, by the way.

Frankly, I see a lot of art I wouldn't pay for unless I could sell it for scrap metal at a higher price.   For a long time artists came out of schools thinking they were supposed to do masturbatory art, i.e., art that was all about themselves.   And then they were surprised that the rest of us weren't willing to cough up our hard-earned dollars to pay for it!  Thankfully the schools are starting to get the message that being an independent artist is being a business person.


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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #37 on: August 27, 2016, 05:46:15 PM »
I know more than just a few people who make their livings publishing their own ebooks.
I know quite a few who make their living via their own web series (with a couple of those making a VERY good living at it).  I personally have made my living as an artist for the past couple of decades.

I don't know if its harder or easier now.
On the one hand you have access to a potential audience of billions, on the other hand... so does every one else.

It's never been easy - but it can be done.

Steve Martin said it best, I think, "Be so good they can't ignore you"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teAvv6jnuXY


Metric Mouse

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #38 on: August 27, 2016, 06:03:59 PM »
I hope your art, is on an iPhone app. Kids don't care about art these days. Just want to pound away on their iPhones.

Have kids been big patrons of the arts in previous generations?

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #39 on: August 27, 2016, 07:11:49 PM »
Many interesting points & opinions here. 

Many people point out that wealthy patrons are important, but a strong upper middle class has supported quite a few artists before they reached stardom (and while their prices were still more affordable).

It's much easier to sell $300 pieces than it is to sell $3000 pieces. 




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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #40 on: August 27, 2016, 07:16:59 PM »
Many interesting points & opinions here. 

Many people point out that wealthy patrons are important, but a strong upper middle class has supported quite a few artists before they reached stardom (and while their prices were still more affordable).

It's much easier to sell $300 pieces than it is to sell $3000 pieces.

Probably not to mustaschians. :D

NorCal

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #41 on: August 27, 2016, 07:52:41 PM »
I would classify anyone making a living in web design, tv, movies, magazines, youtube, or other content development as making a living in art somehow.

The problem for artists come when they want to make art which is different than the art people want to buy.

Not that this is a bad thing.  I can see why you wouldn't want to participate in the art that shows up in mass media.  Just understand that's what people are currently willing to pay for.

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #42 on: August 27, 2016, 08:06:13 PM »
Many interesting points & opinions here. 

Many people point out that wealthy patrons are important, but a strong upper middle class has supported quite a few artists before they reached stardom (and while their prices were still more affordable).

It's much easier to sell $300 pieces than it is to sell $3000 pieces.

Probably not to mustaschians. :D

Really?  Why?

I'd think it's much easier to sell a $300 piece than a $3000 piece to a Mustachian, even more so than the general population.

Selling them at all is difficult, of course, and even more difficult to Mustachians, but when comparing selling a $300 piece to a $3000 piece, I'd assume most Mustachians would be more likely to buy the former.

Why do you assume it would be easier to sell a $3000 piece than a $300 piece to a Mustachian?  You think they view it as an "investment" or something?
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MrDelane

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #43 on: August 27, 2016, 08:29:17 PM »
Why do you assume it would be easier to sell a $3000 piece than a $300 piece to a Mustachian?  You think they view it as an "investment" or something?

I took it as meaning that most Mustachians wouldn't spend $300 (much less $3000) on art... not that they would be more likely to spend $3000.

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #44 on: August 28, 2016, 01:03:22 AM »
Ah.  Yeah, that might be true.  :)
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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #45 on: August 28, 2016, 10:43:42 AM »
I took it as meaning that most Mustachians wouldn't spend $300 (much less $3000) on art... not that they would be more likely to spend $3000.

Yes. Obviously.

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #46 on: August 28, 2016, 10:23:53 PM »
Every artist I know either has parental financial support or cuts back to barely producing anything after a few years because of financial pressure. Or they end up burnt out on drugs from the amount of cocaine necessary to be a full time artist and have a full time j o b.

The amount of talent in any generation is limitless. But few people are foolhardy enough to pursue 'the arts' as a fulltime or lifetime goal. However the consensus among 'art people' I know is there are plenty of us already, no need for anything like a basic income to encourage more to join the fray ;) People who have the appreciation for and desire to create tend to be great supporters of the arts. Most non-trust-fund-babies who need to work for a living are too sensible to actually do it for long - they end up pursuing other careers. Or they find ways to incorporate the arts into a main career that pays the bills.

Nothing stopping you [from making art], IMO, besides yourself.  :)

+1

For a long time artists came out of schools thinking they were supposed to do masturbatory art, i.e., art that was all about themselves.   And then they were surprised that the rest of us weren't willing to cough up our hard-earned dollars to pay for it!  Thankfully the schools are starting to get the message that being an independent artist is being a business person.

I respectfully disagree about extreme/bizarre art going out of fashion ;) A successful performance artist I met in China is notorious for having a rib removed during a performance. Limited edition photos and videos of the performance sell for tons of $ in China and overseas. There are many different kinds of art bought and sold today, many ways in which it is marketed and made. In many cases, the more useless, the better. It is 'art', not utilitarian.

Goldsmithing is a craft. Crafts have particular ways of determining value.  They are very different from contemporary art.

Contemporary art can fetch astronomical prices, because it's a great way to launder new money or show status or make headlines. Crafts appeal to a different demographic and are priced differently. The context is entirely different. Creative people can take a while to figure out what distribution system the art they want to make fits into. I am still figuring it out for mine, having had an uneasy relationship with contemporary art for many years, but feeling the craft and illustration disciplines weren't quite the way I wanted to go either. Luckily I currently have a day job that provides a studio space salary etc that makes this easy (took a lot of time and angling to get here). My patron is an educational foundation, I'm useful to them in certain ways for which they pay me.

I do question whether or not the "free market" is the ultimate arbiter of value, which also causes me to question whether or not I'm right to be unsympathetic.

This is a salient point. Speculation in the Primary Art Market (vs. Secondary [art being resold by collectors] by galleries who sell brand new work by artists, it's a crapshoot, some artists sell well, most don't) means certain internationally influential galleries have courted investors and an investment mentality. This brings speculation on art made by youngish 'undiscovered' artists because they're cheaper and prices will rise more quickly. At any rate, for those interested, "Seven Days in the Artworld" is a good primer on the contemporary art market today.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2016, 02:48:23 AM by expatartist »

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #47 on: August 29, 2016, 08:26:55 AM »
Every artist I know either has parental financial support or cuts back to barely producing anything after a few years because of financial pressure. Or they end up burnt out on drugs from the amount of cocaine necessary to be a full time artist and have a full time j o b.

The amount of talent in any generation is limitless. But few people are foolhardy enough to pursue 'the arts' as a fulltime or lifetime goal. However the consensus among 'art people' I know is there are plenty of us already, no need for anything like a basic income to encourage more to join the fray ;) People who have the appreciation for and desire to create tend to be great supporters of the arts. Most non-trust-fund-babies who need to work for a living are too sensible to actually do it for long - they end up pursuing other careers. Or they find ways to incorporate the arts into a main career that pays the bills.

Nothing stopping you [from making art], IMO, besides yourself.  :)

+1

For a long time artists came out of schools thinking they were supposed to do masturbatory art, i.e., art that was all about themselves.   And then they were surprised that the rest of us weren't willing to cough up our hard-earned dollars to pay for it!  Thankfully the schools are starting to get the message that being an independent artist is being a business person.

I respectfully disagree about extreme/bizarre art going out of fashion ;) A successful performance artist I met in China is notorious for having a rib removed during a performance. Limited edition photos and videos of the performance sell for tons of $ in China and overseas. There are many different kinds of art bought and sold today, many ways in which it is marketed and made. In many cases, the more useless, the better. It is 'art', not utilitarian.

Goldsmithing is a craft. Crafts have particular ways of determining value.  They are very different from contemporary art.

Contemporary art can fetch astronomical prices, because it's a great way to launder new money or show status or make headlines. Crafts appeal to a different demographic and are priced differently. The context is entirely different. Creative people can take a while to figure out what distribution system the art they want to make fits into. I am still figuring it out for mine, having had an uneasy relationship with contemporary art for many years, but feeling the craft and illustration disciplines weren't quite the way I wanted to go either. Luckily I currently have a day job that provides a studio space salary etc that makes this easy (took a lot of time and angling to get here). My patron is an educational foundation, I'm useful to them in certain ways for which they pay me.

I do question whether or not the "free market" is the ultimate arbiter of value, which also causes me to question whether or not I'm right to be unsympathetic.

This is a salient point. Speculation in the Primary Art Market (vs. Secondary [art being resold by collectors] by galleries who sell brand new work by artists, it's a crapshoot, some artists sell well, most don't) means certain internationally influential galleries have courted investors and an investment mentality. This brings speculation on art made by youngish 'undiscovered' artists because they're cheaper and prices will rise more quickly. At any rate, for those interested, "Seven Days in the Artworld" is a good primer on the contemporary art market today.

Good post. 

I'll check out that book. 

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #48 on: August 29, 2016, 08:46:00 AM »
Following.

FIRE Artist

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Re: What would it take to restore the arts to being profitable careers?
« Reply #49 on: August 29, 2016, 09:28:17 AM »
I love the concept of UBI, but since that won't exist in my lifetime, I see FIRE as funding my own BI which will free my time and mind for more creative pursuits.  In the mean time, I spend most of my non work energy on skill and portfolio building for my art.  Not a romantic way to pursue full time arting, but it is working for me and helps me maintain the level of lifestyle comfort to which I have become accustomed. 

It is possible to make a living in the arts, the question is whether or not the standard of living is one that suits the artist.  "Starving Artist" doesn't suit me, and being risk adverse, my post FIRE plan is to devote my time to my painting, without having the stress of worrying whether or not there is a market for it.  Most exhibiting artists I know personally are post retirement from some kind of professional career, or a spouse of someone who is working full time in a non art career.  People who have had successful creative careers in the arts tend towards teaching, or being art directors etc. so not actually deriving income from the sale of their own work to the masses.  Most of those people complain about not having time to pursue their own creative work as much as those who choose another profession to support their lifestyle. 

On the question of restoring the arts to profitable careers, I don't actually think things were any better in the past re. profitability, but I do think that our lifestyle expectations are significantly different. 
« Last Edit: August 29, 2016, 09:32:23 AM by FIRE Artist »