Author Topic: US School Shootings  (Read 6651 times)

RetiredAt63

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #250 on: February 21, 2018, 11:46:10 AM »
Given the fearful and hyper-individualistic nature of many gun owners (the government is out to get me guns, ninjas will invade my home so I need military grade defenses that can be reached every second, the police can't protect me I need to do it myself, easy access to guns makes things less safe but it's better I have them in case criminals do, etc.)  I suspect that this grisly showing would have the opposite of intended impact.
Sadly, you're probably right. I don't think Americans realize how fucked up their outlook on guns looks to the rest of the world. This fetishizing of violence is absolutely incomprehensible to me.

Look at the American and Canadian settlement of the West.  Neighbours, but so different in approach.  They are so immersed in this culture*, they don't see it.  It's an amendment to their constitution, which means it can be amended again, just like lots of other amendments have been added/changed/removed.

*Does a fish notice water?  I am sure outsiders see things about Canadians we don't even notice, we are swimming in our own cultural water.
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gaja

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #251 on: February 21, 2018, 01:53:09 PM »
Given the fearful and hyper-individualistic nature of many gun owners (the government is out to get me guns, ninjas will invade my home so I need military grade defenses that can be reached every second, the police can't protect me I need to do it myself, easy access to guns makes things less safe but it's better I have them in case criminals do, etc.)  I suspect that this grisly showing would have the opposite of intended impact.
Sadly, you're probably right. I don't think Americans realize how fucked up their outlook on guns looks to the rest of the world. This fetishizing of violence is absolutely incomprehensible to me.

Look at the American and Canadian settlement of the West.  Neighbours, but so different in approach.  They are so immersed in this culture*, they don't see it.  It's an amendment to their constitution, which means it can be amended again, just like lots of other amendments have been added/changed/removed.

*Does a fish notice water?  I am sure outsiders see things about Canadians we don't even notice, we are swimming in our own cultural water.

In the rest of the western world, the *constitution* can be changed when it no longer fits the needs of the nation.
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Kris

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #252 on: February 21, 2018, 06:10:18 PM »
So, I know we can't talk about masculinity as part of the issue.

But I'd still like to leave this here.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/21/opinion/boys-violence-shootings-guns.html
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TexasRunner

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #253 on: February 21, 2018, 07:09:34 PM »
So, I know we can't talk about masculinity as part of the issue.
But I'd still like to leave this here.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/21/opinion/boys-violence-shootings-guns.html

I really don't want to turn this to a religious mud-slinging contest, and you might hate the fact that I bring it up, but something stuck out to me in your article.

Quote
But to even admit our terror is to be reduced,
because we don’t have a model of masculinity that allows
for fear or grief or tenderness or the day-to-day sadness
that sometimes overtakes us all.


Fear:
Quote
Psalm 22:1-5

My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?
    Why are you so far away when I groan for help?
Every day I call to you, my God, but you do not answer.
    Every night I lift my voice, but I find no relief.

Yet you are holy,
    enthroned on the praises of Israel.
Our ancestors trusted in you,
    and you rescued them.
They cried out to you and were saved.
    They trusted in you and were never disgraced.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+22%3A1-5&version=NLT
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+27%3A45%E2%80%9346&version=NLT

Grief:
Quote
John 11:33-37
When Jesus saw her weeping and saw the other people wailing with her, a deep anger welled up within him, and he was deeply troubled. “Where have you put him?” he asked them.

They told him, “Lord, come and see.” Then Jesus wept. The people who were standing nearby said, “See how much he loved him!” But some said, “This man healed a blind man. Couldn’t he have kept Lazarus from dying?”
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+11%3A33-37&version=NLT

Tenderness:
Quote
Luke 15:20
2“So he returned home to his father. And while he was still a long way off, his father saw him coming. Filled with love and compassion, he ran to his son, embraced him, and kissed him.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+15%3A11-32&version=NLT

Sadness:
Quote
Mark 10:21
2Looking at the man, Jesus felt genuine love for him. “There is still one thing you haven’t done,” he told him. “Go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+10%3A21&version=NLT

Courage:
Quote
Luke 6:27
“But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+6%3A27-36&version=ESV

Not being the "world's" image of "masculinity":
Quote
Isaiah 53:1-3 New Living Translation (NLT)
Who has believed our message?
    To whom has the Lord revealed his powerful arm?
My servant grew up in the Lord’s presence like a tender green shoot,
    like a root in dry ground.
There was nothing beautiful or majestic about his appearance,
    nothing to attract us to him.
He was despised and rejected—
    a man of sorrows, acquainted with deepest grief.
We turned our backs on him and looked the other way.
    He was despised, and we did not care.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+53%3A1-3&version=NLT



Perhaps we shouldn't have exiled him from our schools.
Perhaps his followers need to do a better job of displaying his message to our youth and not their own messages.

Stuff for many to chew on, myself included.
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PKFFW

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #254 on: February 21, 2018, 09:20:00 PM »
Perhaps we shouldn't have exiled him from our schools.
Perhaps his followers need to do a better job of displaying his message to our youth and not their own messages.

Stuff for many to chew on, myself included.
Hasn't the same SCOTUS that has made rulings protecting the 2nd Amendment also made rulings about the whole separation of church and state thing?

NoStacheOhio

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #255 on: February 22, 2018, 06:46:29 AM »
Perhaps his followers need to do a better job of displaying his message to our youth and not their own messages.

This, to me, is the crux of it.

I've pretty much drifted away from big R Religion and spirituality, but I still read some philosophy, some of it rooted in the Christian tradition (<3 Pete Rollins, for one). The Christ story is overflowing with compassion. It's not so much overtly masculine, which is maybe some of the disconnect? It's (almost) always the case that when you start being more inclusive, people who were already privileged feel like they're losing something. There's a lot of zero-sum rhetoric that gets thrown around. Either way, Churches have their own internal politics and social order that's ostensibly rooted in Christian teachings, but at the end of the day it's just humans seeking power.
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GuitarStv

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #256 on: February 22, 2018, 07:41:44 AM »
Courage:
Quote
Luke 6:27
“But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+6%3A27-36&version=ESV

How does this biblical quote square away with the purported need to own a weapon for self defense?  It would seem to me that purchasing a gun is a ready made decision not to do this.

simonsez

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #257 on: February 22, 2018, 09:44:21 AM »
Courage:
Quote
Luke 6:27
“But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+6%3A27-36&version=ESV

How does this biblical quote square away with the purported need to own a weapon for self defense?  It would seem to me that purchasing a gun is a ready made decision not to do this.
Do we really have to inject the Bible into this discussion?  Sure, parts of it contain good advice, entertaining stories, and the history of how it came to be is interesting but anyone can take passages from (and this goes similarly for all philosophical/religious texts) it to appear like it applies to a modern situation.  Then what devolves are refutations of interpretation, blah blah Hebrew-Greek-Old English-modern English issues, passages stating something contrary and other inconsistencies. 

There is a feel of argument from authority fallacy when the Bible is brought up.  If the US was a "sharia law" Christian country then the Bible would be a legitimate source.  This is not the case (hey! modus tollens!).

OurTown

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #258 on: February 22, 2018, 10:30:11 AM »
By my recollection, guns had not been invented yet in Bible times.

Glenstache

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #259 on: February 22, 2018, 10:47:38 AM »
By my recollection, guns had not been invented yet in Bible times.
Everyone knows that Jesus was a big fan of concealed carry. He talked about it just before he wrote the US Constitution and petted a dinosaur. /s

I guess this is only semi-snark given the exhibits at the Creation Museum:
https://creationmuseum.org/dinosaurs-dragons/

But yes, the morality of the New Testament clearly calls on people to deescalate violence. Beyond that, I think we can leave the Bible and other religious texts out of this.
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TexasRunner

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #260 on: February 22, 2018, 11:51:36 AM »
Quote
But to even admit our terror is to be reduced,
because we don’t have a model of masculinity that allows
for fear or grief or tenderness or the day-to-day sadness
that sometimes overtakes us all.

You guys are probably right, shouldn't have brought it up.

My main point was the article posted and something that stuck out to me (the lack of "appropriate" ( <- not quite the right word) models for males to follow in our society.

Moving on.
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TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #261 on: February 22, 2018, 01:47:33 PM »
There are plenty of smart, well-reasoned people here.

Because of that I want to throw this out there:

Is there any reason that we cannot have a more formal militia, that includes all persons 18 and above (male and female), and you are inherently included in the militia unless something excludes you from it. 

Examples of reasons for exclusions from the "listed militia": 
1. Felony conviction for violent crimes (no expiration)
2. Felony conviction for non-violent crimes, 20-year expiration (or whatever arbitrary expiry date)
3. Mental health instability with the right to immediate appeal (once "convicted" expires 10 years after licensed professional gives the OK on the original "charge")
4. Domestic violence accusation with immediate right to appeal (10 year expiration)
5. Restraining order (possibly no expiration)

Blah, blah blah...

Then it is just a matter of checking to see if TexasRunner with TxDL Number 12345678 and social security XXX-XX-1234 is on the list.  Not on the list, no sale.

Maintaining the list would also allow for a nationwide database of guns and legal owners (which I'm OK with as we have the 2nd amendment and several states have their own constitutions preventing a Aussie style confiscation), ability to track who steals guns and when, easily identify straw purchases, possibly a list of License-To-Carry holders and plenty of reason for other nations to not want to even think about invading the US of A.

It would maintain the "don't F with us, federal government" attitude that was originally placed in the 2nd amendment, and actually make it stronger.

I would also be open to having 'tiers' within the militia, class A (heavily investigated) can have any weapons, class B can have "assualt weapons", class C can have handguns and small caliper rifles, class D can have small caliper rifles only...

Spitballing here. but honestly if this were combined with nation-wide License-To-Carry, and another amendment that "codified" the militia, I could actually see something like this OK'd by gun owners (and the NRA).

Thoughts?

I've thought for a long time we could solve a whole heap of problems (and probably introduce loads more) by going down a mandatory service requirement road like Germany or Israel.  This could be tied into it, take the last two years of high school and revamp it totally, four electives (for those wanting something closer to what we have now, to focus on whatever future college-style post high school future), but the remainder dedicated to physical activity, financial education, cooking, and a vocation (be it soldier/welder/carpenter/cosmetology/whatever).  Essentially draft everyone into military service at 16 until age 18.  It could have a high degree of freedom to allow people to focus on certain things, but have certain minimums with regard to other activities.  So you don't want to be an expert sniper?  Fine, but you have to pass this basic markmanship test, so that when your gang has you do a drive by, at least you're less likely to kill extra folks.

Probably keep us out of a lot more conflict if everyone's teenager is off at basic when something happens too.
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