What does "honest" mean?

[APowers]

Just the musing of my brain. I grew up with almost exclusively one definition, and was very surprised when I encountered someone using the other as the default meaning, as if the one I grew up with didn't even enter into their thought process (or was maybe an afterthought, rather than a "used" thought).

When I say someone is "honest", I mean that they always tell the truth, not that they are otherwise virtuous. Ergo, dishonesty is lying/covering-up, not theft or embezzlement, etc. It took me a while to wrap my brain around someone using "dishonest" to ask "is there money missing?".

[nereo]

For me it honestly (pun!) depends on the sentence.

If I hear someone say "I'm looking for an honest mechanic" my first thought is one who doesn't blatantly overcharge and "repair" things unnecesarily (a form of stealing).  Likewise I'd equate an "honest housekeeper" with one that didn't steal my stuff.

OTOH, a "honest lawyer/salesman" is more likely conjure the idea of "one who tells the truth".  I suppose this is because these professions often have a credibility gap when it comes to the facts.

If someone is described as "an honest man/woman" my first thought is that s/he follows the rules/laws/accepted societal norms.

IF someone is described as "a dishonest person" my first thought is "s/he lies".

So... context...?

[GuitarStv]

Not 'tells the truth'.


Few would consider a person dishonest for saying that someone's ugly new haircut looks 'fine'.





So, I guess 'not steal' wins by default?

[js82]

I chose "tells the truth", but in reality I'd prefer a different set of words.

In my opinion, the essence of honesty may be captured more accurately by the words "does not deceive", because there are ways to deceive without words, and deception and dishonesty are the same thing to me.  Theft generally includes some form of deception as part of the action, unless you accomplish said theft by walking into a bank with a firearm and asking them to hand over their money.

The difference between telling the truth(when asked) and being free of deception can be massive.  It's possible to use information that is technically/factually correct to deceive/mislead others.  Doing so might not technically be lying, but it's not the action of an honest person.  It's also not rare.

[PKFFW]

Honest is being congruent.

You are honest if your words and actions are congruent with what you know to be the truth and the right way to act.  You are being dishonest if there is a lack of congruence.

For example;
You are not "honest" if you are telling a lie.  There is a lack of congruence between what you know to be the truth and what you are saying.
You are not "honest" if you steal.  There is a lack of congruence between what you know to be the right thing to do and what you are actually doing.
ETC, ETC, ETC

Of course there are caveats and nuance, for example;
What if you say something you believe to be true but is actually incorrect?  You are not lying, you are honestly incorrect!
What if you tell someone there ugly hair cut looks nice to spare their feelings?  You are being dishonest but for a "good" reason.
What if you are starving to death and stealing is the only viable option to avoid death?  You are doing what is necessary to remain congruent with life and accepting a lack of congruence with what is normally considered the "right" thing to do.
ETC, ETC, ETC

Didn't vote as neither answer really applies to what first comes into my head and because context is relevant.

[Villanelle]

If there's room for nuance, I'd say if is a combination of both and also neither, as I could consider someone honest even if he lies on occasion or even steals in certain circumstances. 

And context also matters.  If someone said their cleaning person is very honest, I'd assume it meant they didn't steal.  If they said their fashion stylist was honest, I'd assume they meant she doesn't lie.

But if I must choose one and can't use nuance at all, I'd guess it's more "doesn't lie" than "doesn't steal".

[dcheesi]

There were three things that would break the "honor code" at my school: lie, cheat, or steal. I think that's a pretty good synopsis of the full meaning of being "honest".

If I had to, though, I'd rank them in pretty much that same order. Lying is dishonest in the strictest sense. Cheating is implicitly dishonest, in the sense of lying by omission and/or breaking agreed upon rules. Stealing only falls under the broadest definition of "dishonest", wherein it basically means "unlawful".

[dragoncar]

Few would consider a person dishonest for saying that someone's ugly new haircut looks 'fine'.

I wouldn't judge the whole person as dishonest, but I'd definitely say the statement itself was dishonest.  Just because you are occasionally dishonest doesn't make you a bad person. 

[GuitarStv]

Few would consider a person dishonest for saying that someone's ugly new haircut looks 'fine'.

I wouldn't judge the whole person as dishonest, but I'd definitely say the statement itself was dishonest.  Just because you are occasionally dishonest doesn't make you a bad person.

I'd go as far as to say that telling someone their ugly haircut is ugly kinda makes you an asshole . . . so does strict adherence to honesty make you a bad person?

[nereo]

Few would consider a person dishonest for saying that someone's ugly new haircut looks 'fine'.

I wouldn't judge the whole person as dishonest, but I'd definitely say the statement itself was dishonest.  Just because you are occasionally dishonest doesn't make you a bad person.

I'd go as far as to say that telling someone their ugly haircut is ugly kinda makes you an asshole . . . so does strict adherence to honesty make you a bad person?

Depends on how ugly your friends are I guess.... and how often they ask you for your ‘honest’ opinion...

[Villanelle]

Few would consider a person dishonest for saying that someone's ugly new haircut looks 'fine'.

I wouldn't judge the whole person as dishonest, but I'd definitely say the statement itself was dishonest.  Just because you are occasionally dishonest doesn't make you a bad person.

I'd go as far as to say that telling someone their ugly haircut is ugly kinda makes you an asshole . . . so does strict adherence to honesty make you a bad person?

Often there is a middle ground.  "Wow!  It really brings out your gorgeous cheekbones, which weren't as noticeable before!"  You haven't lied, but now have you told them their ugly hair is ugly.  Sometimes there isn't enough room within the awkward truth to flush out that kind of truthful nuance, but often there is. 

[Glenstache]

Not 'tells the truth'.

Few would consider a person dishonest for saying that someone's ugly new haircut looks 'fine'.

So, I guess 'not steal' wins by default?

"This is going to be a difficult conversation, but you need to hear something..."

[js82]

Few would consider a person dishonest for saying that someone's ugly new haircut looks 'fine'.

I wouldn't judge the whole person as dishonest, but I'd definitely say the statement itself was dishonest.  Just because you are occasionally dishonest doesn't make you a bad person.

I'd go as far as to say that telling someone their ugly haircut is ugly kinda makes you an asshole . . . so does strict adherence to honesty make you a bad person?

Depends on the delivery.  Are you speaking your mind just because your can, or are you speaking it with the intent of helping someone see through their own blind spots, so that they can help themselves?  Sometimes harsh truths (delivered in a constructive manner) can be the most helpful things to hear.

Delivering unpleasant truths in a manner that is actually helpful is an art form, and something that most people(myself included) struggle with.

[dragoncar]

Few would consider a person dishonest for saying that someone's ugly new haircut looks 'fine'.

I wouldn't judge the whole person as dishonest, but I'd definitely say the statement itself was dishonest.  Just because you are occasionally dishonest doesn't make you a bad person.

I'd go as far as to say that telling someone their ugly haircut is ugly kinda makes you an asshole . . . so does strict adherence to honesty make you a bad person?

Depends on the delivery.  Are you speaking your mind just because your can, or are you speaking it with the intent of helping someone see through their own blind spots, so that they can help themselves?  Sometimes harsh truths (delivered in a constructive manner) can be the most helpful things to hear.

Delivering unpleasant truths in a manner that is actually helpful is an art form, and something that most people(myself included) struggle with.

You don’t have to lie to be polite.  You can just not answer the question and change the subject.  Mention some video tapes you have to return and excuse yourself

[Metalcat]

Few would consider a person dishonest for saying that someone's ugly new haircut looks 'fine'.

I wouldn't judge the whole person as dishonest, but I'd definitely say the statement itself was dishonest.  Just because you are occasionally dishonest doesn't make you a bad person.

I'd go as far as to say that telling someone their ugly haircut is ugly kinda makes you an asshole . . . so does strict adherence to honesty make you a bad person?

You're conflating honesty with being a good person.
You can be a terrible person and still be an honest person.

[nereo]

Few would consider a person dishonest for saying that someone's ugly new haircut looks 'fine'.

I wouldn't judge the whole person as dishonest, but I'd definitely say the statement itself was dishonest.  Just because you are occasionally dishonest doesn't make you a bad person.

I'd go as far as to say that telling someone their ugly haircut is ugly kinda makes you an asshole . . . so does strict adherence to honesty make you a bad person?

Depends on the delivery.  Are you speaking your mind just because your can, or are you speaking it with the intent of helping someone see through their own blind spots, so that they can help themselves?  Sometimes harsh truths (delivered in a constructive manner) can be the most helpful things to hear.

Delivering unpleasant truths in a manner that is actually helpful is an art form, and something that most people(myself included) struggle with.

You don’t have to lie to be polite.  You can just not answer the question and change the subject.  Mention some video tapes you have to return and excuse yourself

What are video tapes, and who do you return them to, and why?

[GuitarStv]

Few would consider a person dishonest for saying that someone's ugly new haircut looks 'fine'.

I wouldn't judge the whole person as dishonest, but I'd definitely say the statement itself was dishonest.  Just because you are occasionally dishonest doesn't make you a bad person.

I'd go as far as to say that telling someone their ugly haircut is ugly kinda makes you an asshole . . . so does strict adherence to honesty make you a bad person?

Depends on the delivery.  Are you speaking your mind just because your can, or are you speaking it with the intent of helping someone see through their own blind spots, so that they can help themselves?  Sometimes harsh truths (delivered in a constructive manner) can be the most helpful things to hear.

Delivering unpleasant truths in a manner that is actually helpful is an art form, and something that most people(myself included) struggle with.

You don’t have to lie to be polite.  You can just not answer the question and change the subject.  Mention some video tapes you have to return and excuse yourself

What are video tapes, and who do you return them to, and why?

Be kind, rewind bro.

[meghan88]

Few would consider a person dishonest for saying that someone's ugly new haircut looks 'fine'.

I wouldn't judge the whole person as dishonest, but I'd definitely say the statement itself was dishonest.  Just because you are occasionally dishonest doesn't make you a bad person.

I'd go as far as to say that telling someone their ugly haircut is ugly kinda makes you an asshole . . . so does strict adherence to honesty make you a bad person?

You're conflating honesty with being a good person.
You can be a terrible person and still be an honest person.

Totally.

Honesty + tact = good?

[GuitarStv]

Few would consider a person dishonest for saying that someone's ugly new haircut looks 'fine'.

I wouldn't judge the whole person as dishonest, but I'd definitely say the statement itself was dishonest.  Just because you are occasionally dishonest doesn't make you a bad person.

I'd go as far as to say that telling someone their ugly haircut is ugly kinda makes you an asshole . . . so does strict adherence to honesty make you a bad person?

You're conflating honesty with being a good person.
You can be a terrible person and still be an honest person.

Totally.

Honesty + tact = good?

But honesty and tact often conflict.

[Metalcat]

Few would consider a person dishonest for saying that someone's ugly new haircut looks 'fine'.

I wouldn't judge the whole person as dishonest, but I'd definitely say the statement itself was dishonest.  Just because you are occasionally dishonest doesn't make you a bad person.

I'd go as far as to say that telling someone their ugly haircut is ugly kinda makes you an asshole . . . so does strict adherence to honesty make you a bad person?

You're conflating honesty with being a good person.
You can be a terrible person and still be an honest person.

Totally.

Honesty + tact = good?

No. I know plenty of honest and tactful shit heads.

[js82]

Totally.

Honesty + tact = good?

Tactful = "polite" or "nice", not "good" or "kind".  There's a huge difference between trying to not offend anyone, versus being genuinely kind/helpful.

[dragoncar]

Totally.

Honesty + tact = good?

Tactful = "polite" or "nice", not "good" or "kind".  There's a huge difference between trying to not offend anyone, versus being genuinely kind/helpful.

Screw you

[frugalnacho]

Few would consider a person dishonest for saying that someone's ugly new haircut looks 'fine'.

I wouldn't judge the whole person as dishonest, but I'd definitely say the statement itself was dishonest.  Just because you are occasionally dishonest doesn't make you a bad person.

I'd go as far as to say that telling someone their ugly haircut is ugly kinda makes you an asshole . . . so does strict adherence to honesty make you a bad person?

Depends on the delivery.  Are you speaking your mind just because your can, or are you speaking it with the intent of helping someone see through their own blind spots, so that they can help themselves?  Sometimes harsh truths (delivered in a constructive manner) can be the most helpful things to hear.

Delivering unpleasant truths in a manner that is actually helpful is an art form, and something that most people(myself included) struggle with.

You don’t have to lie to be polite.  You can just not answer the question and change the subject.  Mention some video tapes you have to return and excuse yourself

You like Phil Collins?

[ender]

Honesty is different than bluntness/directness.

They intersect for most people based on their personal level of directness (vs indirectness). The more direct you are the more problem you will have with the example around the haircut being considered "honest."

[GuitarStv]

I tend towards extreme directness.  Lying (at least on some level . . . be it lying through misdirection, lying through omission, or just straight up saying something that isn't true because it's expected of you) is fundamental to interacting with other human beings.

Take the inane questions 'How are you?' or 'How are you doing?' proffered by most people upon seeing you.  The person asking doesn't give a shit.  If you start talking about the itchy lump you believe is cancer growing on your ass, they're likely to become very uncomfortable.  They just want you to say 'Good' so they can check a step off of their ritualistic greeting checklist.  So eventually you learn to lie and say 'Good' every time.

[John Galt incarnate!]

Just the musing of my brain. I grew up with almost exclusively one definition, and was very surprised when I encountered someone using the other as the default meaning, as if the one I grew up with didn't even enter into their thought process (or was maybe an afterthought, rather than a "used" thought).

When I say someone is "honest", I mean that they always tell the truth, not that they are otherwise virtuous. Ergo, dishonesty is lying/covering-up, not theft or embezzlement, etc. It took me a while to wrap my brain around someone using "dishonest" to ask "is there money missing?".

To be honest is to say/act in accordance with what one knows or believes to be true.

[John Galt incarnate!]

I tend towards extreme directness. 

I'm extraordinarily direct largely because I'm a literalist.

[gooki]

If a thief always tells the truth when confronted are they an honest person?

[Raenia]

I tend towards extreme directness.  Lying (at least on some level . . . be it lying through misdirection, lying through omission, or just straight up saying something that isn't true because it's expected of you) is fundamental to interacting with other human beings.

Take the inane questions 'How are you?' or 'How are you doing?' proffered by most people upon seeing you.  The person asking doesn't give a shit.  If you start talking about the itchy lump you believe is cancer growing on your ass, they're likely to become very uncomfortable.  They just want you to say 'Good' so they can check a step off of their ritualistic greeting checklist.  So eventually you learn to lie and say 'Good' every time.

But it's not a binary choice between saying "good" and telling them in detail about your cancerous ass lumps.  "It's been a rough week," or "Loving the weather today," or "Pretty tired this morning," or any other minor, but true statement, followed by "What about you?" satisfies the social requirement without lying.  If being honest (in the sense of telling the truth) is important, it can be done with little effort.

Lying might be easier, but it's hardly "fundamental to interacting with other human beings."

[frugalnacho]

My wife's a pain in the ass. She's always busting my friggin' agates. My daughter's married to a jadrool loser bastard. And I got a rash so bad on my ass, I can't even sit down. But you know me. I can't complain.

[Villanelle]

I tend towards extreme directness.  Lying (at least on some level . . . be it lying through misdirection, lying through omission, or just straight up saying something that isn't true because it's expected of you) is fundamental to interacting with other human beings.

Take the inane questions 'How are you?' or 'How are you doing?' proffered by most people upon seeing you.  The person asking doesn't give a shit.  If you start talking about the itchy lump you believe is cancer growing on your ass, they're likely to become very uncomfortable.  They just want you to say 'Good' so they can check a step off of their ritualistic greeting checklist.  So eventually you learn to lie and say 'Good' every time.

But it's not a binary choice between saying "good" and telling them in detail about your cancerous ass lumps.  "It's been a rough week," or "Loving the weather today," or "Pretty tired this morning," or any other minor, but true statement, followed by "What about you?" satisfies the social requirement without lying.  If being honest (in the sense of telling the truth) is important, it can be done with little effort.

Lying might be easier, but it's hardly "fundamental to interacting with other human beings."

Right.  My response to strangers or very casual acquaintances is, "living the dream".  The one, however, varies from enthusiastic to sarcastic, depending on how I've actually been feeling.  I also go with "meh.  How about you?", if things are a bit rough.