Author Topic: What do you believe about climate change?  (Read 63310 times)

MoonShadow

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What do you believe about climate change?
« on: September 06, 2015, 12:39:37 PM »
I've been warned that this is a dangerous topic around here, but I'd still like to hear what members actually believe is true, false, plausible or mythical about climate change.  Be advised, this thread could be locked rather quickly if the personal attacks get out of hand, as they did in this thread...

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/continue-the-blog-conversation/are-climate-skeptics-always-anti-science

What prompted this query is this video that my son showed me, with one of the original founders of GreenPeace, Patrick Moore...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkdbSxyXftc


Zamboni

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2015, 12:45:24 PM »
Climate change is not a belief. Climate change is a fact. Just like evolution is a fact.

lbmustache

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2015, 12:48:29 PM »
Climate change is not a belief. Climate change is a fact. Just like evolution is a fact.

+1

lemondirgopie

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2015, 01:24:31 PM »
+1

brainfart

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2015, 01:42:07 PM »
This will be interesting to watch. Getting popcorn.

music lover

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2015, 01:42:23 PM »
I don't believe mankind is having much of an impact on the climate. The planet has had CO2 levels 10 times higher than today without runaway temperatures.

Things to consider:

Water vapour is more of a greenhouse gas than CO2.

That big shiny thing in the sky is the main driver of our climate.

CO2 is essential for all life on earth to exist. If CO2 went below 150ppm, all life on earth would cease to exist.

400 parts per million is 4 molecules out of 10,000. Adding 1 or 2 more molecules will not send the planet into a fiery death.

CO2 is plant food. Commercial growers add CO2 to levels of 1400 - 1600 ppm to aid plant growth.

Every single solution to "climate change" involves higher taxes or energy prices. This will hurt low income people the most.

There is no proven correlation to warmer temperatures and bad weather. It simply gets a little warmer. Tornadoes are down in the US, and the US has not had a level 3 hurricane for a record number of years.

Warm is not bad. The closer you get to the equator, the more abundant life becomes.

Do some reading on solar minimums...based on 400 years of sunspot data, we may be heading towards another mini ice age in the next couple decades. If that happens, food shortages will be severe due to shortened growing seasons, and that will cause more trouble than any amount of warming.

GizmoTX

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2015, 01:46:26 PM »
Climate has always been changing for millennia. The critical issue is whether man has the power to significantly cause or make major climate changes.

Ice ages happened & receded without man. The sun has periodic cycles that definitely affect climate. One major volcano will significantly alter climate.

Conservation has been conveniently confused with climate change.

Silverado

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2015, 01:57:17 PM »
Climate has always been changing for millennia. The critical issue is whether man has the power to significantly cause or make major climate changes.

Ice ages happened & receded without man. The sun has periodic cycles that definitely affect climate. One major volcano will significantly alter climate.

Conservation has been conveniently confused with climate change.

This is where I am with it.


shelivesthedream

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2015, 02:49:05 PM »
Here's my take on climate change: it doesn't matter whether we are causing it or not.

We still need to take radical action to change our habits and our consumption whether or not the planet gives a damn about our CO2 emissions. We need to stop driving cars to lower air pollution and slow the use of finite oil resources. We need to stop wasting water because purifying it is incredibly wasteful. We need to stop buying plastic shit from China because [see: cars] and to stop enslaving people halfway across the world to find our whims. We need to stop throwing stuff away because landfill is disgusting. We need to move to varied, organic agriculture so we don't create more deserts and kill off even more biodiversity. We need to say no to corporations so that we can function on a human level and remain psychologically healthy. We need to use less electricity because we shouldn't need to burn coal to fuel our greed.

If we are causing climate change, all of the above should slow it down/stop it. If we're not, we should be doing it anyway. So who cares?

ditheca

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2015, 02:57:50 PM »
Disclaimer: I woke in the airport consulting industry and many of my coworkers are environmentalists.

I'm convinced that humans have already had a measurable impact on the climate.  I believe that "human" emissions will increase the global temperature by a few degrees in the coming years, and the result has the potential to be catastrophic.  As the only race that could possibly be responsible for this planet, I feel like we have a duty to take good care of it. 

My family lives in a small house, on a small budget, and uses gasoline and electric conservatively. We don't pay double to get "green" electricity, but would strongly consider it once FIREd.

marty998

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2015, 03:14:34 PM »
Climate change is not a belief. Climate change is a fact. Just like evolution is a fact.

+1

Yep, science is true* whether you believe it or not.

Posing it as a question about beliefs is not very scientific.

* To the extent it has been supported by available evidence. That's the beauty of science - it will always be tested again and again. You make your name by being the one who disproves conventional wisdom - it's a gigantic carrot dangling in front of anyone who can disprove the current accepted consensus on climate science.

Here's my take on climate change: it doesn't matter whether we are causing it or not.

We still need to take radical action to change our habits and our consumption whether or not the planet gives a damn about our CO2 emissions. We need to stop driving cars to lower air pollution and slow the use of finite oil resources. We need to stop wasting water because purifying it is incredibly wasteful. We need to stop buying plastic shit from China because [see: cars] and to stop enslaving people halfway across the world to find our whims. We need to stop throwing stuff away because landfill is disgusting. We need to move to varied, organic agriculture so we don't create more deserts and kill off even more biodiversity. We need to say no to corporations so that we can function on a human level and remain psychologically healthy. We need to use less electricity because we shouldn't need to burn coal to fuel our greed.

If we are causing climate change, all of the above should slow it down/stop it. If we're not, we should be doing it anyway. So who cares?

Agree with the sentiments. Cannot believe the amount of garbage some people produce.

I washed out an empty jar of jam on the weekend before putting it for recycling. Got me thinking just how many glass jars there are produced in the world every single day and where they all end up.

And that's just jam...1 in a million different products.

music lover

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2015, 03:16:08 PM »
I don't think anyone is against less pollution. But the problem is that some people mistakenly confuse pollution with CO2. CO2 is NOT pollution...it is a trace gas (4 molecules per 10,000) that is essential for life on earth to exist.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2015, 03:18:16 PM by music lover »

marty998

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2015, 03:24:25 PM »
I don't think anyone is against less pollution. But the problem is that some people mistakenly confuse pollution with CO2. CO2 is NOT pollution...it is a trace gas (4 molecules per 10,000) that is essential for life on earth to exist.

Yeah but we've managed to double it from 200 ppm in the space of what, 70 years? Nature doesn't move that quickly - the earth takes 10's of thousands of years to change - not decades.

There are far more powerful greenhouse gases out there - methane for example. But CO2 is the one we are pumping out in the billions of tonnes each year, which is having a measurable effect on the climate. The extent of the effect is still debatable, but it is certianly having a measurable effect.

Having said that, I agree with you that the term "carbon pollution" is a poor one from a scientific point of view.

sol

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2015, 03:44:40 PM »
The planet has had CO2 levels 10 times higher than today without runaway temperatures.

When?  What professor of earth history fed you this lie? 

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Water vapour is more of a greenhouse gas than CO2.

This is true.  If we were putting as much water as CO2 into the atmosphere, we'd have an even bigger problem.  But we're not doing that.

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That big shiny thing in the sky is the main driver of our climate.

Technically, the energy balance of planet Earth is the main driver of our climate.  The sun is the big source of energy in, but CO2 and other greenhouse gasses are what controls the energy out. 

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CO2 is essential for all life on earth to exist. If CO2 went below 150ppm, all life on earth would cease to exist.

Our atmosphere is a carefully balanced system.  Too much or too little of any major component is a problem.  Taking out half of the water would also be bad.  So would half of the nitrogen.  I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.

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400 parts per million is 4 molecules out of 10,000. Adding 1 or 2 more molecules will not send the planet into a fiery death.

You don't think that a 50% increase in CO2 concentrations would be a problem?  Moments ago you argued that a 50% reduction would end all life on earth.  Am I understanding you correctly that you believe lowering CO2 concentrations would be catastrophic, but raising them isn't a problem?

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CO2 is plant food. Commercial growers add CO2 to levels of 1400 - 1600 ppm to aid plant growth.

Manure is plant food, too, but you don't want too much of it in your drinking water, do you?  Lots of things that are beneficial in small doses are harmful in larger doses.

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Every single solution to "climate change" involves higher taxes or energy prices. This will hurt low income people the most.

Not every solution, but many of them do require carbon emitters to pay for the full cost of their business model.  No other industry on earth is completely exempt from cleaning up its own pollution.  How did oil companies get that awesome benefit?  We don't complain about the harm to low-income people when a nuclear reactor melts down, we just expect the company to clean up their mess.

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There is no proven correlation to warmer temperatures and bad weather. It simply gets a little warmer.

No correlation to bad weather, agreed.  But a definite correlation to different weather.  Better in some places, worse in others.  Just like when you're experiencing a drought that water doesn't disappear, it just ends up somewhere other than where you want it to be.  Changes to the system are difficult for people to adjust to.

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Warm is not bad. The closer you get to the equator, the more abundant life becomes.

Until it gets too hot, of course.  Making everywhere on earth a little bit warmer is probably fine for most places.  Some places will get too hot and turn into lifeless deserts.  Some places that are currently very cold will get too warm for their current life forms, and those life forms will go extinct.  Animals and plants need the right temperature and they can't always just relocate to a better place.  Forests don't have feet, trees don't migrate very fast.

Quote
Do some reading on solar minimums...based on 400 years of sunspot data, we may be heading towards another mini ice age in the next couple decades. If that happens, food shortages will be severe due to shortened growing seasons, and that will cause more trouble than any amount of warming.

I agree that an ice age would be a bad thing, but that's not what anyone is predicting.  Where did this info come from? 

music lover

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2015, 03:57:59 PM »
I don't think anyone is against less pollution. But the problem is that some people mistakenly confuse pollution with CO2. CO2 is NOT pollution...it is a trace gas (4 molecules per 10,000) that is essential for life on earth to exist.

Yeah but we've managed to double it from 200 ppm in the space of what, 70 years? Nature doesn't move that quickly - the earth takes 10's of thousands of years to change - not decades.

There are far more powerful greenhouse gases out there - methane for example. But CO2 is the one we are pumping out in the billions of tonnes each year, which is having a measurable effect on the climate. The extent of the effect is still debatable, but it is certianly having a measurable effect.

Having said that, I agree with you that the term "carbon pollution" is a poor one from a scientific point of view.

No one has proven that man-made CO2 has affected the temperature. Even the IPCC states that (buried in the back pages). The same people that claim CO2 affects the temperature can't explain the Medieval Warming Period which was warmer than today, or the Little Ice Age, or the current 18+ year pause. They also can't explain why CO2 levels were 10 times higher than today in the past when the planet was in an ice age. If they can't explain the past or the present, then why should any claims about the future be believed?

sol

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2015, 03:58:56 PM »
My "beliefs" about climate change:

1.  The thermometers are not lying to us.  Earth is already about 1.5 degrees warmer than it was before we started burning fossil fuels.  I don't argue with thermometers.

2.  Planet earth spent roughly 600 million years burying carbon in the ground, very slowly, as dead and decayed organic matter.  We've extracted about half of that in 150 years, and pumped it all into the atmosphere, as the primary function of the global economy.

3.  The global carbon cycle is slow.  Most of the carbon we put in the air eventually gets soaked up by the oceans and then deposited as carbonate rocks on the ocean floor, which are then buried in the earth's interior by plate tectonics.  This is the process that has always governed the rate of carbon cycling on our planet, and it will take tens of thousands of years to remove the carbon we've already burned.

4.  And now we're on to the "belief" part since the preceding are established facts.  I believe that catastrophic climate change is a foregone conclusion and all of the current fuss over how to curtail emissions is too little too late.  At best we'll stall the worst impacts for an extra few hundred years but I'm pretty certain that most of Florida is going to be underwater in 800 years no matter how many hybrid cars we sell or solar panels we put up.  The current environmental movement is just a cover story to help motivate people to conserve, so that we can buy enough time to find another solution.

Stache-O-Lantern

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2015, 04:03:00 PM »
I will throw my hat in the ring on the side of the current scientific consensus, which as i understand it is that added co2 and other gases from people is adding to climate change.

I do think it is incorrect to refer it as fact.  Isn't it a scientific explanation that fits the available facts/evidence better than any other explanation?  I'm trying to avoid the word "theory", as that can be charged word that is interpreted differently depending on ones background, and especially in the media.  Science always leaves the door open for a better explanation, new facts, etc.

I don't think all the solutions require added expense.  Some of the best ones are probably cheaper.  Using less energy, driving less etc.  Even if it turned out to be wrong, and skeptics were completely vindicated, i think there would be a lot of improvements from using less energy and driving less.   

sol

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2015, 04:04:28 PM »
No one has proven that man-made CO2 has affected the temperature.

Yes we have.  We predicted that CO2 emissions would raise temperatures back in the 1800s, though at the time people thought it would take thousands of years and not mere decades.  The heat-trapping properties of CO2 were well established long ago.  Actually watching temperature go up in response to the CO2 concentration is just confirmation of the hypothesis.

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Even the IPCC states that (buried in the back pages). The same people that claim CO2 affects the temperature can't explain the Medieval Warming Period which was warmer than today, or the Little Ice Age, or the current 18+ year pause.

Yes we can, yes we can, and yes we can.  You clearly haven't done any actual research on this topic.  All three of those things are well understood, though your last one is arguably a Fox News talking point not supported by actual data. 

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They also can't explain why CO2 levels were 10 times higher than today in the past when the planet was in an ice age.

Yes we can.  Have you ever taken even an introductory earth history class?  This stuff is like Geology101, week three, the kind I used to teach to incoming freshmen. You keep making wildly inaccurate claims that thirty seconds with google or any geology textbook would resolve for you.  Maybe get back to us in five after you've done a little reading?


ketchup

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2015, 04:09:23 PM »
I believe in climate change as much as I believe the force of gravity will continue to hold my ass in this chair until I decree otherwise.

iris lily

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2015, 04:13:37 PM »
Not sure how much effect man has on everything, but if I had progeny I would be buying up swaths for Alaska for their grandchildren.

sol

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2015, 04:17:37 PM »
Not sure how much effect man has on everything, but if I had progeny I would be buying up swaths for Alaska for their grandchildren.

I wouldn't get too carried away.  Climate change is likely to move the current climates poleward, slowly.  In another 30 or 40 years, Seattle may look like Portland but it won't look like San Diego. 

Bracken_Joy

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2015, 04:34:24 PM »
I "believe" that scientific consensus is evidence-based, an there is a strong evidence-based consensus on this topic, and I "believe" that this evidence basis indicates that we are burning and cutting down our carbon sinks, increasing CO2 in the atmosphere, and this leads to climate volatility, creating altered weather patterns and subsequently having an effect on ecological systems. I "believe" that ocean acidification is happening, and that life on land is impacted by life in our oceans.

music lover

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2015, 04:51:07 PM »
There is only one sure thing...every single solution to the "climate crisis" involves people giving more money to the government.

All it takes is enough willing fools to buy into the alarmism...and there seem to be more than enough of them around to guarantee that. They found the perfect vehicle to collect more money from the masses who are willingly bending over and taking it. Of course, the government can't control the climate, but that's just a silly little detail that's unimportant.

sol

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2015, 05:35:24 PM »
There is only one sure thing...every single solution to the "climate crisis" involves people giving more money to the government.

Why do you keep saying that when it's so easy to disprove?  Where are you getting these ideas that make you sound so misinformed?

The leading political solution to paying for climate change mitigation is, by definition, revenue neutral.  The whole idea of a carbon tax is that you reduce income and/or business taxes by the exact amount you raise from carbon taxes, so that the government is not allowed to make any money off of the deal. 

The (Republican-proposed) idea was to get government OUT of carbon regulation by ending the current subsidies to oil and gas companies, instead creating a market solution in which people who generate carbon pollution bear the cost of cleaning it up, either by passing the cost on to their customers (and thus making cleaner technologies more cost-competitive) or by purchasing offsetting credits from someone else who can clean up the equivalent mess more cheaply.  The government would tax carbon emissions instead of income, in an attempt to incentivize people to work and dissuade them from polluting, without actually raising net taxes in any way.  For most of the people here, who burn less carbon than average, their taxes might even go down.

See how easy that is?  If you have any more demonstrably false climate-denialist talking points you'd like me to address, please chime in again.

music lover

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2015, 05:42:21 PM »
Sol, if you really think taxes will go down, you must be the most gullible person in the world. It's not about the climate...it's about money. Only a fool would think otherwise.

sol

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2015, 06:44:09 PM »
Sol, if you really think taxes will go down, you must be the most gullible person in the world. It's not about the climate...it's about money. Only a fool would think otherwise.

Of course it's about money.  Everything in America is about money.  Oil and gas companies are about money, too, in particular they are about maximizing profit by making a huge mess and then having the US taxpayer pay to clean it up.

JJNL

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2015, 06:48:16 PM »
+1 on 'believing' in climate change. And on thinking there isn't a lot to believe here, it's a scientific fact that humans are affecting the planet's climate - as for the existence of climate change, I'm with Sol. Also, this isn't much of a debate where I am living, not a lot of climate skeptics around. That probably goes with living below sea level - it makes even people who might otherwise be so-called climate skeptics want to err on the side of caution. BTW this doesn't mean our government does enough to prevent climate change, in fact, it has been doing way too little. That's not because they dont believe in it though, but because they have other political priorities (mainly to do with the short run - it's kinda hard to get politicians to do what's best for the next generation when the next election is at most 4 years away).

I do believe that a solution can be found though - although not without some cost, and not without any changes in the climate (which are happening already). Saying that I think the whole thing is a foregone conclusion would imply saying I'm ready to give up about half of my country to the waves eventually. We've mostly built those bits ourselves, I hope we will also be smart and able enough to be able to rescue them.

Lastly, watching the whole climate change debate rage in the US is hugely frustrating. As long as you guys are not on board fully, a lot of other countries (including my own government) have a good excuse not to do anything too, and it's hard to really change anything.

the_gastropod

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2015, 06:55:58 PM »
Sol, if you really think taxes will go down, you must be the most gullible person in the world. It's not about the climate...it's about money. Only a fool would think otherwise.

Yea, this is probably my favorite climate denier talking point: THE GREEN INDUSTRY MAKES MONEY! You're ignoring the fact that the lion's share of energy profit goes to a handful of incredibly wealthy corporations with a lot to lose. These companies have been caught red handed repeatedly conjuring misinformation, and you're buying it. You are the Philip Morris defender, claiming cigarettes don't cause cancer.

firewalker

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2015, 07:43:39 PM »
I'm handling it proactively by evolving so as to adjust to the new climate.

sol

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2015, 08:01:04 PM »
I'm handling it proactively by evolving so as to adjust to the new climate.

It doesn't take much, for most of us.  People are pretty adaptable.  Our crops are less adaptable.  Some of the natural ecosystems we enjoy are pretty fragile. 

Bicycle_B

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2015, 08:29:21 PM »
There is only one sure thing...every single solution to the "climate crisis" involves people giving more money to the government.

All it takes is enough willing fools to buy into the alarmism...and there seem to be more than enough of them around to guarantee that. They found the perfect vehicle to collect more money from the masses who are willingly bending over and taking it. Of course, the government can't control the climate, but that's just a silly little detail that's unimportant.

Didn't MMM suggest in a post somewhere that if enough people adopt Mustachian lifestyles instead of spendy ones, we Individuals of the Mustache could contribute to solving climate change? 

We're not much of a government...

bacchi

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2015, 08:40:43 PM »
What prompted this query is this video that my son showed me, with one of the original founders of GreenPeace, Patrick Moore...

Patrick Moore was not an original founder of Greenpeace.

And I'm going to go with the science on this one. AGW is real.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2015, 08:42:29 PM by bacchi »

Zamboni

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2015, 09:01:28 PM »
I'm handling it proactively by evolving so as to adjust to the new climate.

Nice work! But species evolve over multiple generations through random mutations and natural selection by survival of the fittest. You cannot, all by yourself, evolve to survive any massive change in climate. The good news is that your offspring will each have 80-100 random DNA mutations that may or may not allow them to survive better than you can. But I get your post. Very clever.

Ocean acidification is also a fact. If you like to eat shellfish, then eat them now, while they still exist.

sol

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #34 on: September 06, 2015, 09:11:03 PM »
Yep, science is true* whether you believe it or not.

Relevant commentary from my bro John Oliver: 

okonumiyaki

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #35 on: September 06, 2015, 09:35:09 PM »
1)  Climate change is real.  Duh.  Ice ages happened.

2) It is extremely likely that human impact has an effect on climate change, both at the micro level (desertification by poor farming methods, a- and de-forestation efforts, heat islands of cities etc) and macro level.  At the micro level, there can be no doubt.  (cities do change local climate, the dust bowl happened)  At the macro level, the relative impact can be an issue of disagreement.  My view is that human impact is pretty major

3) I am a pessimist, it is probably too late to do anything about it.

NorCal

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #36 on: September 06, 2015, 11:09:05 PM »
I believe the climate is changing, and that the climate has always been changing.  I don't understand the obsession with whether people are involved with the change or not.  Either we care enough to try to change the climate in a different direction (hopefully in the most efficient way) or we don't.

There's very little said on the topic that doesn't trigger my BS meter.  The "solutions" being peddled are simple extensions of lobbying campaigns from various parties that have little to do with climate change itself.  I've mostly tuned out discussion on the topic for the time being.  I'll tune back in if there's ever a focus on cost-effective climate change towards whatever the scientific "good" direction is.

shelivesthedream

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #37 on: September 07, 2015, 12:41:19 AM »
There is only one sure thing...every single solution to the "climate crisis" involves people giving more money to the government.

Are you kidding?! Seriously?! As far as I am aware there is only one solution which may involve giving money to the government (carbon tax) or may not, depending on how they work it. All other solutions involve spending LESS money: using less electricity, buying fewer disposable items, etc. A genuine green movement would be catastrophic for government revenue because people would spend less (less VAT), companies would make less profit (less corporation tax) and most likely people would earn less (either voluntarily or through fewer waste-creating non-jobs) (less income tax). One model may be to increase the role of human labour - e.g. Instead of cutting down a tree with a chainsaw in a few minutes, cut it down with two people and a manual double-ended saw. It would increase employment and naturally limit our consumption of resources as we use less petrol (no chainsaw) and wood becomes harder to process and therefore more expensive, so hopefully we would use less and make the most of what we do have. Similarly, one could stop using combine harvesters and get out a group of people with scythes. Rejecting mechanisation/automation is a pretty tough call, though, one I wouldn't expect most people to be comfortable with.

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forummm

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music lover

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #40 on: September 07, 2015, 06:50:46 AM »
Sol, if you really think taxes will go down, you must be the most gullible person in the world. It's not about the climate...it's about money. Only a fool would think otherwise.

Yea, this is probably my favorite climate denier talking point: THE GREEN INDUSTRY MAKES MONEY! You're ignoring the fact that the lion's share of energy profit goes to a handful of incredibly wealthy corporations with a lot to lose. These companies have been caught red handed repeatedly conjuring misinformation, and you're buying it. You are the Philip Morris defender, claiming cigarettes don't cause cancer.

It's interesting how some people can so easily see lies from energy companies but be willfully blind to lies from the alarmist side. Every fudged fact or outright lie from Big Green is simply dismissed. Michael Mann and Al Gore are shown to be frauds, the 97% "consensus" was really 0.3%, every single one of the IPCC climate models has been wrong, but no problem...we'll make billion dollar economic decisions based on them anyway. Nothing will deter those who believe. They dismiss all evidence against their climate gods and simply move along to the next messiah preaching the message.

music lover

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #41 on: September 07, 2015, 06:54:46 AM »

NorCal

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #42 on: September 07, 2015, 08:01:09 AM »
This thread is the perfect argument for a low-information diet.

A good number of people are now spending part of their life trying to convince strangers over the internet that deeply held beliefs are wrong.

That has never worked in the history of the internet.  The conversation will not change anyone's opinions, nor will it have any impact on global warming.

forummm

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #43 on: September 07, 2015, 09:41:54 AM »
The conversation will not change anyone's opinions, nor will it have any impact on global warming.
It will probably increase global warming slightly due to the non-renewable energy being used to conduct the conversation.

bacchi

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #44 on: September 07, 2015, 09:44:33 AM »
Michael Mann and Al Gore are shown to be frauds,

There's a long list of studies that support Mann's conclusions. I assume you have (peer reviewed) studies that state otherwise?

Quote from: Wiki
More than two dozen reconstructions, using various statistical methods and combinations of proxy records, have supported the broad consensus shown in the original 1998 hockey-stick graph, with variations in how flat the pre-20th century "shaft" appears.[12][13] The 2007 IPCC Fourth Assessment Report cited 14 reconstructions, 10 of which covered 1,000 years or longer, to support its strengthened conclusion that it was likely that Northern Hemisphere temperatures during the 20th century were the highest in at least the past 1,300 years.[14] Over a dozen subsequent reconstructions, including Mann et al. 2008 and PAGES 2k Consortium 2013, have supported these general conclusions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_large-scale_temperature_reconstructions_of_the_last_2,000_years

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the 97% "consensus" was really 0.3%,

Link?

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every single one of the IPCC climate models has been wrong,

ALL of them? Link?

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They dismiss all evidence against their climate gods and simply move along to the next messiah preaching the message.

Let's see the evidence. Using wattsup as a primary source doesn't count.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2015, 09:55:35 AM by bacchi »

sol

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #45 on: September 07, 2015, 10:23:35 AM »
I assume you have (peer reviewed) studies that state otherwise?
...
Link?
...
ALL of them? Link?
...
Let's see the evidence.

You're fishing in an empty pond. 

music lover

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #46 on: September 07, 2015, 10:32:03 AM »
Michael Mann and Al Gore are shown to be frauds,

There's a long list of studies that support Mann's conclusions. I assume you have (peer reviewed) studies that state otherwise?

Quote from: Wiki
More than two dozen reconstructions, using various statistical methods and combinations of proxy records, have supported the broad consensus shown in the original 1998 hockey-stick graph, with variations in how flat the pre-20th century "shaft" appears.[12][13] The 2007 IPCC Fourth Assessment Report cited 14 reconstructions, 10 of which covered 1,000 years or longer, to support its strengthened conclusion that it was likely that Northern Hemisphere temperatures during the 20th century were the highest in at least the past 1,300 years.[14] Over a dozen subsequent reconstructions, including Mann et al. 2008 and PAGES 2k Consortium 2013, have supported these general conclusions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_large-scale_temperature_reconstructions_of_the_last_2,000_years

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the 97% "consensus" was really 0.3%,

Link?

Quote
every single one of the IPCC climate models has been wrong,

ALL of them? Link?

Quote
They dismiss all evidence against their climate gods and simply move along to the next messiah preaching the message.

Let's see the evidence. Using wattsup as a primary source doesn't count.

It would be a waste of time trying to convince you. Your mind is made up, and it's plainly obvious that you have outright dismissed anything that goes against your belief.

By the way...it's quite telling that you cherry picked the 2007 IPCC report...but conveniently ignored later IPCC reports that removed all reference to Mann after he was exposed as a fraud. He was the cornerstone of their earlier reports and yet they couldn't move fast enough to completely wash their hands of him once his fraud was exposed.

bacchi

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #47 on: September 07, 2015, 10:35:42 AM »
While looking into why the same questions/arguments are brought up time and again, despite a quick google search yielding answers, I came across this:

http://www.science20.com/the_conversation/why_ill_talk_policy_with_climate_change_deniers_but_not_science-151520

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This is because climate change challenges the Anglo-American neo-liberal view that is held so dear by mainstream economists and politicians. Climate change is a massive pollution issue that shows the markets have failed and it requires governments to act collectively to regulate industry and business.

This also applies somewhat to health care, though obviously there is less hard science there.

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Hence, is it any wonder that many people prefer climate change denial to having to face the prospect of building a new political (and socio-economic) system, which allows collective action and greater equality?

bacchi

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #48 on: September 07, 2015, 11:06:51 AM »
It would be a waste of time trying to convince you. Your mind is made up, and it's plainly obvious that you have outright dismissed anything that goes against your belief.

Go ahead and link them anyway, especially the 97/0.3% meta-study and the studies disproving "every single" climate model the IPCC uses. Maybe you'll change someone else's mind.

Quote
By the way...it's quite telling that you cherry picked the 2007 IPCC report...but conveniently ignored later IPCC reports that removed all reference to Mann after he was exposed as a fraud. He was the cornerstone of their earlier reports and yet they couldn't move fast enough to completely wash their hands of him once his fraud was exposed.

Eh? Mann's conclusions are in the 2013 Summary Report. ??? There are 7 graphs on page 419 of the full report that show a "hockey stick." He has studies referenced in the latest IPCC.

How was he exposed as a fraud? By whom and..link?

Thanks.

sol

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Re: What do you believe about climate change?
« Reply #49 on: September 07, 2015, 01:31:59 PM »
How was he exposed as a fraud? By whom and..link?

He wasn't.  He was accused of fraud by a group of oil and gas industry lobbyists, which sparked a series of investigations, all of which fully exonerated him of any wrongdoing.  But that doesn't matter here, because it's an easy-to-verify fact and this clearly isn't a conversation about facts.