Author Topic: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?  (Read 154773 times)

JLee

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3050 on: April 20, 2017, 08:31:44 PM »


Quote
I wouldn't go so far as to call Trump a rapist, but his sexual improprieties have been extensively documented, not just by the lewd comments on the 'hot-mic' Hollywood Access video, but on air with Howard Stern, covered in the tabloids during his last two divorces, and on the set of The Apprentice.
So why dispute the point if you're not calling him a rapist? Many ARE calling him a rapist and predator, when he's not.


The point is that he's setting a terrible role model.   Now everyone sees that it's ok to sexually harass women because you can do this and still be the POTUS.
Trump didn't sexually harass anyone. He made a comment about golddiggers.

Oh that's a relief that you know that, I thought all these women claimed he harassed them.
Anyone can make a claim. Where's the evident? Guess that whole innocent until proven guilty thing doesn't apply to Trump?

Innocent until proven guilty applies to the justice system, not to public opinion. You yourself have specifically claimed that "Trump didn't sexually harass anyone."  That is highly suspect.

http://www.npr.org/2016/10/13/497799354/a-list-of-donald-trumps-accusers-of-inappropriate-sexual-conduct
Again, accusations don't mean anything at all. Obviously courts don't deal with public opinion, but saying or even implying someone is a sexual predator with ZERO evidence is ridiculous.

What if I and four others accuse you of sexual harassment right now? Would it be okay for all of America to then  hold that over your head?

It's just pretty ridiculous to use accusations as a point against Trump. Accusations are not proof.

It is equally ridiculous to dismiss a pattern of accusations because the alleged offender denies them. Are you aware that Trump has had multiple lawsuits claiming assault and/or sexual harassment beginning more than 20 years ago?
So as long as multiple people accuse you, it suddenly means it's somehow more valid?

Are you claiming that there has been a pattern of people working together for the last 28 years in an attempt to falsely discredit Donald Trump?
No, I'm saying that regardless of how many accusers there are, he hasn't been found guilty of anything. So holding it over his head is ridiculous at best.

He hasn't been criminally charged, so it's impossible for him to have been found guilty OR INNOCENT.

Wrap your head around that one.
I'm not even sure what to say about that. Are you kidding me? Again, innocent until proven guilty. You sexually assaulted me. You haven't been found innocent yet, therefore you're guilty.

I already explained how the presumption of innocence works in a criminal trial.  This does not mean that someone IS innocent.  Look it up.

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3051 on: April 20, 2017, 08:35:11 PM »


Quote
I wouldn't go so far as to call Trump a rapist, but his sexual improprieties have been extensively documented, not just by the lewd comments on the 'hot-mic' Hollywood Access video, but on air with Howard Stern, covered in the tabloids during his last two divorces, and on the set of The Apprentice.
So why dispute the point if you're not calling him a rapist? Many ARE calling him a rapist and predator, when he's not.


The point is that he's setting a terrible role model.   Now everyone sees that it's ok to sexually harass women because you can do this and still be the POTUS.
Trump didn't sexually harass anyone. He made a comment about golddiggers.

Oh that's a relief that you know that, I thought all these women claimed he harassed them.
Anyone can make a claim. Where's the evident? Guess that whole innocent until proven guilty thing doesn't apply to Trump?

Innocent until proven guilty applies to the justice system, not to public opinion. You yourself have specifically claimed that "Trump didn't sexually harass anyone."  That is highly suspect.

http://www.npr.org/2016/10/13/497799354/a-list-of-donald-trumps-accusers-of-inappropriate-sexual-conduct
Again, accusations don't mean anything at all. Obviously courts don't deal with public opinion, but saying or even implying someone is a sexual predator with ZERO evidence is ridiculous.

What if I and four others accuse you of sexual harassment right now? Would it be okay for all of America to then  hold that over your head?

It's just pretty ridiculous to use accusations as a point against Trump. Accusations are not proof.

It is equally ridiculous to dismiss a pattern of accusations because the alleged offender denies them. Are you aware that Trump has had multiple lawsuits claiming assault and/or sexual harassment beginning more than 20 years ago?
So as long as multiple people accuse you, it suddenly means it's somehow more valid?

Are you claiming that there has been a pattern of people working together for the last 28 years in an attempt to falsely discredit Donald Trump?
No, I'm saying that regardless of how many accusers there are, he hasn't been found guilty of anything. So holding it over his head is ridiculous at best.

He hasn't been criminally charged, so it's impossible for him to have been found guilty OR INNOCENT.

Wrap your head around that one.
I'm not even sure what to say about that. Are you kidding me? Again, innocent until proven guilty. You sexually assaulted me. You haven't been found innocent yet, therefore you're guilty.

I already explained how the presumption of innocence works in a criminal trial.  This does not mean that someone IS innocent.  Look it up.
Well duh. No one said it was proven he was innocent. But holding against him unsubstantiated claims is stupid. Much like how it's stupid to bring up the Clinton accusations.

JLee

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3052 on: April 20, 2017, 08:38:41 PM »


Quote
I wouldn't go so far as to call Trump a rapist, but his sexual improprieties have been extensively documented, not just by the lewd comments on the 'hot-mic' Hollywood Access video, but on air with Howard Stern, covered in the tabloids during his last two divorces, and on the set of The Apprentice.
So why dispute the point if you're not calling him a rapist? Many ARE calling him a rapist and predator, when he's not.


The point is that he's setting a terrible role model.   Now everyone sees that it's ok to sexually harass women because you can do this and still be the POTUS.
Trump didn't sexually harass anyone. He made a comment about golddiggers.

Oh that's a relief that you know that, I thought all these women claimed he harassed them.
Anyone can make a claim. Where's the evident? Guess that whole innocent until proven guilty thing doesn't apply to Trump?

Innocent until proven guilty applies to the justice system, not to public opinion. You yourself have specifically claimed that "Trump didn't sexually harass anyone."  That is highly suspect.

http://www.npr.org/2016/10/13/497799354/a-list-of-donald-trumps-accusers-of-inappropriate-sexual-conduct
Again, accusations don't mean anything at all. Obviously courts don't deal with public opinion, but saying or even implying someone is a sexual predator with ZERO evidence is ridiculous.

What if I and four others accuse you of sexual harassment right now? Would it be okay for all of America to then  hold that over your head?

It's just pretty ridiculous to use accusations as a point against Trump. Accusations are not proof.

It is equally ridiculous to dismiss a pattern of accusations because the alleged offender denies them. Are you aware that Trump has had multiple lawsuits claiming assault and/or sexual harassment beginning more than 20 years ago?
So as long as multiple people accuse you, it suddenly means it's somehow more valid?

Are you claiming that there has been a pattern of people working together for the last 28 years in an attempt to falsely discredit Donald Trump?
No, I'm saying that regardless of how many accusers there are, he hasn't been found guilty of anything. So holding it over his head is ridiculous at best.

He hasn't been criminally charged, so it's impossible for him to have been found guilty OR INNOCENT.

Wrap your head around that one.
I'm not even sure what to say about that. Are you kidding me? Again, innocent until proven guilty. You sexually assaulted me. You haven't been found innocent yet, therefore you're guilty.

I already explained how the presumption of innocence works in a criminal trial.  This does not mean that someone IS innocent.  Look it up.
Well duh. No one said it was proven he was innocent. But holding against him unsubstantiated claims is stupid. Much like how it's stupid to bring up the Clinton accusations.
...
Quote from: MrMonkeyMoustache
Trump didn't sexually harass anyone.

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3053 on: April 20, 2017, 08:44:54 PM »


Quote
I wouldn't go so far as to call Trump a rapist, but his sexual improprieties have been extensively documented, not just by the lewd comments on the 'hot-mic' Hollywood Access video, but on air with Howard Stern, covered in the tabloids during his last two divorces, and on the set of The Apprentice.
So why dispute the point if you're not calling him a rapist? Many ARE calling him a rapist and predator, when he's not.


The point is that he's setting a terrible role model.   Now everyone sees that it's ok to sexually harass women because you can do this and still be the POTUS.
Trump didn't sexually harass anyone. He made a comment about golddiggers.

Oh that's a relief that you know that, I thought all these women claimed he harassed them.
Anyone can make a claim. Where's the evident? Guess that whole innocent until proven guilty thing doesn't apply to Trump?

Innocent until proven guilty applies to the justice system, not to public opinion. You yourself have specifically claimed that "Trump didn't sexually harass anyone."  That is highly suspect.

http://www.npr.org/2016/10/13/497799354/a-list-of-donald-trumps-accusers-of-inappropriate-sexual-conduct
Again, accusations don't mean anything at all. Obviously courts don't deal with public opinion, but saying or even implying someone is a sexual predator with ZERO evidence is ridiculous.

What if I and four others accuse you of sexual harassment right now? Would it be okay for all of America to then  hold that over your head?

It's just pretty ridiculous to use accusations as a point against Trump. Accusations are not proof.

It is equally ridiculous to dismiss a pattern of accusations because the alleged offender denies them. Are you aware that Trump has had multiple lawsuits claiming assault and/or sexual harassment beginning more than 20 years ago?
So as long as multiple people accuse you, it suddenly means it's somehow more valid?

Are you claiming that there has been a pattern of people working together for the last 28 years in an attempt to falsely discredit Donald Trump?
No, I'm saying that regardless of how many accusers there are, he hasn't been found guilty of anything. So holding it over his head is ridiculous at best.

He hasn't been criminally charged, so it's impossible for him to have been found guilty OR INNOCENT.

Wrap your head around that one.
I'm not even sure what to say about that. Are you kidding me? Again, innocent until proven guilty. You sexually assaulted me. You haven't been found innocent yet, therefore you're guilty.

I already explained how the presumption of innocence works in a criminal trial.  This does not mean that someone IS innocent.  Look it up.
Well duh. No one said it was proven he was innocent. But holding against him unsubstantiated claims is stupid. Much like how it's stupid to bring up the Clinton accusations.
...
Quote from: MrMonkeyMoustache
Trump didn't sexually harass anyone.
[bquote] I never said it was proven that he was innocent, but generally, people are considered innocent until proven otherwise. So as of now, he should be considered innocent. Obviously not proven, but it doesn't need to be.

JLee

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3054 on: April 20, 2017, 08:45:51 PM »
You're claiming that your words mean something other than what they specifically say.

This explains a lot - thanks for the clarification!

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3055 on: April 20, 2017, 08:59:19 PM »
You're claiming that your words mean something other than what they specifically say.

This explains a lot - thanks for the clarification!
Or, I realize that it's literally impossible to prove a negative. You know that, right?

former player

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3056 on: April 21, 2017, 01:33:41 AM »
You're claiming that your words mean something other than what they specifically say.

This explains a lot - thanks for the clarification!
Or, I realize that it's literally impossible to prove a negative. You know that, right?
Oh please, scientists and courts of law prove negatives all the time.
Be frugal and industrious, and you will be free (Ben Franklin)

BeginnerStache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3057 on: April 21, 2017, 05:33:09 AM »
You're claiming that your words mean something other than what they specifically say.

This explains a lot - thanks for the clarification!
Or, I realize that it's literally impossible to prove a negative. You know that, right?

Of course it's not impossible. You sentence itself is a negative and thus, by your own logic, not provable.

You are doing a fantastic job trolling. 

Unique User

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3058 on: April 21, 2017, 05:51:01 AM »
You're claiming that your words mean something other than what they specifically say.

This explains a lot - thanks for the clarification!
Or, I realize that it's literally impossible to prove a negative. You know that, right?

Of course it's not impossible. You sentence itself is a negative and thus, by your own logic, not provable.

You are doing a fantastic job trolling.

Troll, or could be he actually believes the nonsense.  Trump has settled sexual harassment lawsuits, fraud lawsuits and discrimination lawsuits, but of course he isn't guilty of anything, it's a liberal hit job.  He's associated with mobsters, took dirty money in Azerbaijan, Tampa, NY, etc, but of course he is squeaky clean because he denies any wrongdoing.  He lied on his FEC filings, but of course he is transparent and as for his tax returns, nothing to see here people, just move on.  It's amazing to me the lengths people will go to defend the indefensible.  I can't wait to see how the Trumpsters will spin Exxon asking for a sanctions waiver to work with Rosneft. 

cerat0n1a

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3059 on: April 21, 2017, 06:45:24 AM »
Good to see that the US has finally seen the error of its ways and opted for a royal family. The "first daughter" will make an "official" visit to Germany.

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3060 on: April 21, 2017, 06:48:23 AM »
You're claiming that your words mean something other than what they specifically say.

This explains a lot - thanks for the clarification!
Or, I realize that it's literally impossible to prove a negative. You know that, right?

Of course it's not impossible. You sentence itself is a negative and thus, by your own logic, not provable.

You are doing a fantastic job trolling.

Troll, or could be he actually believes the nonsense.  Trump has settled sexual harassment lawsuits, fraud lawsuits and discrimination lawsuits, but of course he isn't guilty of anything, it's a liberal hit job.  He's associated with mobsters, took dirty money in Azerbaijan, Tampa, NY, etc, but of course he is squeaky clean because he denies any wrongdoing.  He lied on his FEC filings, but of course he is transparent and as for his tax returns, nothing to see here people, just move on.  It's amazing to me the lengths people will go to defend the indefensible.  I can't wait to see how the Trumpsters will spin Exxon asking for a sanctions waiver to work with Rosneft.
Oh, after the tax return comment, I see what's going on here now. Even when there's not a single shred of evidence of any wrongdoing, you still hold it against Trump. What about his tax returns?

GilbertB

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3061 on: April 21, 2017, 06:49:55 AM »
Good to see that the US has finally seen the error of its ways and opted for a royal family. The "first daughter" will make an "official" visit to Germany.
A Royal Family of German stock, as in any proper Royal Familly.

BeginnerStache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3062 on: April 21, 2017, 06:54:42 AM »
You're claiming that your words mean something other than what they specifically say.

This explains a lot - thanks for the clarification!
Or, I realize that it's literally impossible to prove a negative. You know that, right?

Of course it's not impossible. You sentence itself is a negative and thus, by your own logic, not provable.

You are doing a fantastic job trolling.

Troll, or could be he actually believes the nonsense.

I don't think the two are mutually exclusive ( :

FrugalToque

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3063 on: April 21, 2017, 07:16:37 AM »
Well, this is all pretty irritating.  You guys going at it like this and I get the moderation requests.

Look
a) It is possible to prove a negative:
You: "I accuse you of punching me in the face on May 25, 1965."
Me:  "Here's my birth certificate.  I was born in 1976."

b) Courts of law do not prove negatives.  They only find you "not guilty".  In some countries, there are also verdicts like "not proven"
"Actual innocence" is a different thing you can read about here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actual_innocence

Donald Trump is a special case, not just because he's president, but because he literally bragged about his ability to sexual assault women and get away with it, then declared that he'd never really done that ... and then women came forward to say, "Yeah, that's basically exactly what he did to me."  It's like having a confession, but one not specific to each individual criminal accusation.

Now, if the bunch of you aren't going to stop all this trolling, name-calling and assorted bullshit, I'm going to can the whole lot of you.

Toque.

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3064 on: April 21, 2017, 07:22:51 AM »
Well, this is all pretty irritating.  You guys going at it like this and I get the moderation requests.

Look
a) It is possible to prove a negative:
You: "I accuse you of punching me in the face on May 25, 1965."
Me:  "Here's my birth certificate.  I was born in 1976."

b) Courts of law do not prove negatives.  They only find you "not guilty".  In some countries, there are also verdicts like "not proven"
"Actual innocence" is a different thing you can read about here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actual_innocence

Donald Trump is a special case, not just because he's president, but because he literally bragged about his ability to sexual assault women and get away with it, then declared that he'd never really done that ... and then women came forward to say, "Yeah, that's basically exactly what he did to me."  It's like having a confession, but one not specific to each individual criminal accusation.

Now, if the bunch of you aren't going to stop all this trolling, name-calling and assorted bullshit, I'm going to can the whole lot of you.

Toque.
I'm not trolling. For what it's worth, despite many being spewed towards me, I have yet to name call a single time on this website.

Anyways, his comments didn't describe sexual assault, it described women LETTING him do it. He literally said, "they let you do it." A far-cry from sexual assault, and clearly implying consent.

With that being said, I think everyone here, myself included, would at least appreciate if people would cut down the quotes on quotes on quotes. Getting hard to track, and makes the page longer.

FrugalToque

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3065 on: April 21, 2017, 07:45:08 AM »
Well, this is all pretty irritating.  You guys going at it like this and I get the moderation requests.

Look
a) It is possible to prove a negative:
You: "I accuse you of punching me in the face on May 25, 1965."
Me:  "Here's my birth certificate.  I was born in 1976."

b) Courts of law do not prove negatives.  They only find you "not guilty".  In some countries, there are also verdicts like "not proven"
"Actual innocence" is a different thing you can read about here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actual_innocence

Donald Trump is a special case, not just because he's president, but because he literally bragged about his ability to sexual assault women and get away with it, then declared that he'd never really done that ... and then women came forward to say, "Yeah, that's basically exactly what he did to me."  It's like having a confession, but one not specific to each individual criminal accusation.

Now, if the bunch of you aren't going to stop all this trolling, name-calling and assorted bullshit, I'm going to can the whole lot of you.

Toque.
I'm not trolling. For what it's worth, despite many being spewed towards me, I have yet to name call a single time on this website.

Anyways, his comments didn't describe sexual assault, it described women LETTING him do it. He literally said, "they let you do it." A far-cry from sexual assault, and clearly implying consent.

"I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait. 
And when you’re a star they let you do it. You can do anything…
Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything."

This does not describe a consensual situation.  At best, it's consent obtained after the fact, which is not a thing.  It's just sexual assault - but with the victim too scared to do anything about it.  If someone goes through his life behaving this way, he's an asshole and he belongs in jail.

You won't do well defending such a person.

Toque.

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3066 on: April 21, 2017, 07:51:35 AM »
Well, this is all pretty irritating.  You guys going at it like this and I get the moderation requests.

Look
a) It is possible to prove a negative:
You: "I accuse you of punching me in the face on May 25, 1965."
Me:  "Here's my birth certificate.  I was born in 1976."

b) Courts of law do not prove negatives.  They only find you "not guilty".  In some countries, there are also verdicts like "not proven"
"Actual innocence" is a different thing you can read about here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actual_innocence

Donald Trump is a special case, not just because he's president, but because he literally bragged about his ability to sexual assault women and get away with it, then declared that he'd never really done that ... and then women came forward to say, "Yeah, that's basically exactly what he did to me."  It's like having a confession, but one not specific to each individual criminal accusation.

Now, if the bunch of you aren't going to stop all this trolling, name-calling and assorted bullshit, I'm going to can the whole lot of you.

Toque.
I'm not trolling. For what it's worth, despite many being spewed towards me, I have yet to name call a single time on this website.

Anyways, his comments didn't describe sexual assault, it described women LETTING him do it. He literally said, "they let you do it." A far-cry from sexual assault, and clearly implying consent.

"I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait. 
And when you’re a star they let you do it. You can do anything…
Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything."

This does not describe a consensual situation.  At best, it's consent obtained after the fact, which is not a thing.  It's just sexual assault - but with the victim too scared to do anything about it.  If someone goes through his life behaving this way, he's an asshole and he belongs in jail.

You won't do well defending such a person.

Toque.

Well, to be completely honest, with things like these, we see his words very differently. If we can't agree on what was even said, we'll never be able to agree on premises drawn from that.

Regarding not asking, plenty of people don't ask. When I have sex with my girlfriend, I don't ask, I just do it. Trump is saying that women are letting him, not because they're scared, but because he's rich. He's essentially saying that some women are gold diggers, which I think is pretty accurate.

FrugalToque

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3067 on: April 21, 2017, 07:58:37 AM »

Donald Trump is a special case, not just because he's president, but because he literally bragged about his ability to sexual assault women and get away with it, then declared that he'd never really done that ... and then women came forward to say, "Yeah, that's basically exactly what he did to me."  It's like having a confession, but one not specific to each individual criminal accusation.
Anyways, his comments didn't describe sexual assault, it described women LETTING him do it. He literally said, "they let you do it." A far-cry from sexual assault, and clearly implying consent.

"I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait. 
And when you’re a star they let you do it. You can do anything…
Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything."

This does not describe a consensual situation.  At best, it's consent obtained after the fact, which is not a thing.  It's just sexual assault - but with the victim too scared to do anything about it.  If someone goes through his life behaving this way, he's an asshole and he belongs in jail.

You won't do well defending such a person.

Toque.

Well, to be completely honest, with things like these, we see his words very differently. If we can't agree on what was even said, we'll never be able to agree on premises drawn from that.

Regarding not asking, plenty of people don't ask. When I have sex with my girlfriend, I don't ask, I just do it. Trump is saying that women are letting him, not because they're scared, but because he's rich. He's essentially saying that some women are gold diggers, which I think is pretty accurate.

We don't see his words differently.  I see the words he's using, and you're pretending he said something else.
He is describing kissing and groping women he does not know, on a regular basis, without permission, or any other indications that his touch might be welcome or invited.
At best, it's sexual assault with permission after the fact.
At worst, he's saying he can get away with what he knows is wrong because he's famous and powerful.

There's nothing else there.  He said he gropes strange women and believes that either "they" (the women) or "they" (courts) will let him get away with it.

Don't bother trying to defend sexual assault any further.

Toque.

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3068 on: April 21, 2017, 08:01:29 AM »

Donald Trump is a special case, not just because he's president, but because he literally bragged about his ability to sexual assault women and get away with it, then declared that he'd never really done that ... and then women came forward to say, "Yeah, that's basically exactly what he did to me."  It's like having a confession, but one not specific to each individual criminal accusation.
Anyways, his comments didn't describe sexual assault, it described women LETTING him do it. He literally said, "they let you do it." A far-cry from sexual assault, and clearly implying consent.

"I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait. 
And when you’re a star they let you do it. You can do anything…
Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything."

This does not describe a consensual situation.  At best, it's consent obtained after the fact, which is not a thing.  It's just sexual assault - but with the victim too scared to do anything about it.  If someone goes through his life behaving this way, he's an asshole and he belongs in jail.

You won't do well defending such a person.

Toque.

Well, to be completely honest, with things like these, we see his words very differently. If we can't agree on what was even said, we'll never be able to agree on premises drawn from that.

Regarding not asking, plenty of people don't ask. When I have sex with my girlfriend, I don't ask, I just do it. Trump is saying that women are letting him, not because they're scared, but because he's rich. He's essentially saying that some women are gold diggers, which I think is pretty accurate.

We don't see his words differently.  I see the words he's using, and you're pretending he said something else.
He is describing kissing and groping women he does not know, on a regular basis, without permission, or any other indications that his touch might be welcome or invited.
At best, it's sexual assault with permission after the fact.
At worst, he's saying he can get away with what he knows is wrong because he's famous and powerful.

There's nothing else there.  He said he gropes strange women and believes that either "they" (the women) or "they" (courts) will let him get away with it.

Don't bother trying to defend sexual assault any further.

Toque.
When did he say he touches women without permission? If I go in for a kiss, and a woman happily let's me, I didn't ask for permission, but I certainly received it.

Gin1984

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3069 on: April 21, 2017, 08:04:58 AM »

Donald Trump is a special case, not just because he's president, but because he literally bragged about his ability to sexual assault women and get away with it, then declared that he'd never really done that ... and then women came forward to say, "Yeah, that's basically exactly what he did to me."  It's like having a confession, but one not specific to each individual criminal accusation.
Anyways, his comments didn't describe sexual assault, it described women LETTING him do it. He literally said, "they let you do it." A far-cry from sexual assault, and clearly implying consent.

"I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait. 
And when you’re a star they let you do it. You can do anything…
Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything."

This does not describe a consensual situation.  At best, it's consent obtained after the fact, which is not a thing.  It's just sexual assault - but with the victim too scared to do anything about it.  If someone goes through his life behaving this way, he's an asshole and he belongs in jail.

You won't do well defending such a person.

Toque.

Well, to be completely honest, with things like these, we see his words very differently. If we can't agree on what was even said, we'll never be able to agree on premises drawn from that.

Regarding not asking, plenty of people don't ask. When I have sex with my girlfriend, I don't ask, I just do it. Trump is saying that women are letting him, not because they're scared, but because he's rich. He's essentially saying that some women are gold diggers, which I think is pretty accurate.

We don't see his words differently.  I see the words he's using, and you're pretending he said something else.
He is describing kissing and groping women he does not know, on a regular basis, without permission, or any other indications that his touch might be welcome or invited.
At best, it's sexual assault with permission after the fact.
At worst, he's saying he can get away with what he knows is wrong because he's famous and powerful.

There's nothing else there.  He said he gropes strange women and believes that either "they" (the women) or "they" (courts) will let him get away with it.

Don't bother trying to defend sexual assault any further.

Toque.
When did he say he touches women without permission? If I go in for a kiss, and a woman happily let's me, I didn't ask for permission, but I certainly received it.
You are adding in a word he did not.  Happily.  And women (and men for that matter) have been known to freeze when assaulted.  Letting because you did not stop them, is not consent. 

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3070 on: April 21, 2017, 08:09:11 AM »

Donald Trump is a special case, not just because he's president, but because he literally bragged about his ability to sexual assault women and get away with it, then declared that he'd never really done that ... and then women came forward to say, "Yeah, that's basically exactly what he did to me."  It's like having a confession, but one not specific to each individual criminal accusation.
Anyways, his comments didn't describe sexual assault, it described women LETTING him do it. He literally said, "they let you do it." A far-cry from sexual assault, and clearly implying consent.

"I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait. 
And when you’re a star they let you do it. You can do anything…
Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything."

This does not describe a consensual situation.  At best, it's consent obtained after the fact, which is not a thing.  It's just sexual assault - but with the victim too scared to do anything about it.  If someone goes through his life behaving this way, he's an asshole and he belongs in jail.

You won't do well defending such a person.

Toque.

Well, to be completely honest, with things like these, we see his words very differently. If we can't agree on what was even said, we'll never be able to agree on premises drawn from that.

Regarding not asking, plenty of people don't ask. When I have sex with my girlfriend, I don't ask, I just do it. Trump is saying that women are letting him, not because they're scared, but because he's rich. He's essentially saying that some women are gold diggers, which I think is pretty accurate.

We don't see his words differently.  I see the words he's using, and you're pretending he said something else.
He is describing kissing and groping women he does not know, on a regular basis, without permission, or any other indications that his touch might be welcome or invited.
At best, it's sexual assault with permission after the fact.
At worst, he's saying he can get away with what he knows is wrong because he's famous and powerful.

There's nothing else there.  He said he gropes strange women and believes that either "they" (the women) or "they" (courts) will let him get away with it.

Don't bother trying to defend sexual assault any further.

Toque.
When did he say he touches women without permission? If I go in for a kiss, and a woman happily let's me, I didn't ask for permission, but I certainly received it.
You are adding in a word he did not.  Happily.  And women (and men for that matter) have been known to freeze when assaulted.  Letting because you did not stop them, is not consent.
I wasn't directly quoting him, I was using my own example where permission wasn't verbally given, but clearly consent was there.

And are you not doing the same, by saying that these women were not consenting? How can you say that? Especially when he's not even talking about any specific situation.

People are getting on his case as well about the pussy grabbing comments. But which actual women did he do that to? And when did he ever suggest that it was meant to be taken as against their consent?

Sure, there's no way right now for me to prove he didn't mean without consent. But the opposite is also true.

Kris

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3071 on: April 21, 2017, 08:11:53 AM »

Donald Trump is a special case, not just because he's president, but because he literally bragged about his ability to sexual assault women and get away with it, then declared that he'd never really done that ... and then women came forward to say, "Yeah, that's basically exactly what he did to me."  It's like having a confession, but one not specific to each individual criminal accusation.
Anyways, his comments didn't describe sexual assault, it described women LETTING him do it. He literally said, "they let you do it." A far-cry from sexual assault, and clearly implying consent.

"I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait. 
And when you’re a star they let you do it. You can do anything…
Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything."

This does not describe a consensual situation.  At best, it's consent obtained after the fact, which is not a thing.  It's just sexual assault - but with the victim too scared to do anything about it.  If someone goes through his life behaving this way, he's an asshole and he belongs in jail.

You won't do well defending such a person.

Toque.

Well, to be completely honest, with things like these, we see his words very differently. If we can't agree on what was even said, we'll never be able to agree on premises drawn from that.

Regarding not asking, plenty of people don't ask. When I have sex with my girlfriend, I don't ask, I just do it. Trump is saying that women are letting him, not because they're scared, but because he's rich. He's essentially saying that some women are gold diggers, which I think is pretty accurate.

We don't see his words differently.  I see the words he's using, and you're pretending he said something else.
He is describing kissing and groping women he does not know, on a regular basis, without permission, or any other indications that his touch might be welcome or invited.
At best, it's sexual assault with permission after the fact.
At worst, he's saying he can get away with what he knows is wrong because he's famous and powerful.

There's nothing else there.  He said he gropes strange women and believes that either "they" (the women) or "they" (courts) will let him get away with it.

Don't bother trying to defend sexual assault any further.

Toque.
When did he say he touches women without permission? If I go in for a kiss, and a woman happily let's me, I didn't ask for permission, but I certainly received it.
You are adding in a word he did not.  Happily.  And women (and men for that matter) have been known to freeze when assaulted.  Letting because you did not stop them, is not consent.

Agreed. I have been accosted before by a man who has pulled me in and kissed me before I had time to react. Or in Trump's terms, they "just kiss. They don't even wait."

I can assure you, I did NOT give my consent. And frankly, they deserved a good kick in the balls, which I was too shocked to give, unfortunately.

I imagine Trump (probably correctly) assumes the women he assaults will not kick him in the balls because he's rich and they're too afraid to give him what he deserves. That seems to be his vision of "consent" -- or, in his terms, "letting him." Not because they want him to. But in his own words, because he's a star. He knows he can do what he wants because he has power.

He's a pig. And let's not forget he was saying he does this while he was already married to Melania.
"Well I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I weren't under such heavy sedation."   - David St. Hubins, This is Spinal Tap

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3072 on: April 21, 2017, 08:15:21 AM »


Agreed. I have been accosted before by a man who has pulled me in and kissed me before I had time to react. Or in Trump's terms, they "just kiss. They don't even wait."

I can assure you, I did NOT give my consent. And frankly, they deserved a good kick in the balls, which I was too shocked to give, unfortunately.

I imagine Trump (probably correctly) assumes the women he assaults will not kick him in the balls because he's rich and they're too afraid to give him what he deserves. That seems to be his vision of "consent" -- or, in his terms, "letting him." Not because they want him to. But in his own words, because he's a star. He knows he can do what he wants because he has power.

He's a pig. And let's not forget he was saying he does this while he was already married to Melania.
Those guys are definitely in the wrong. But what did Trump say that suggested he does that, knowing that they won't tell because they fear him?

At best, people are reaching. At worst, they're defaming him by accusing him of being a sexual predator.

Kris

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3073 on: April 21, 2017, 08:18:48 AM »


Agreed. I have been accosted before by a man who has pulled me in and kissed me before I had time to react. Or in Trump's terms, they "just kiss. They don't even wait."

I can assure you, I did NOT give my consent. And frankly, they deserved a good kick in the balls, which I was too shocked to give, unfortunately.

I imagine Trump (probably correctly) assumes the women he assaults will not kick him in the balls because he's rich and they're too afraid to give him what he deserves. That seems to be his vision of "consent" -- or, in his terms, "letting him." Not because they want him to. But in his own words, because he's a star. He knows he can do what he wants because he has power.

He's a pig. And let's not forget he was saying he does this while he was already married to Melania.
Those guys are definitely in the wrong. But what did Trump say that suggested he does that, knowing that they won't tell because they fear him?

At best, people are reaching. At worst, they're defaming him by accusing him of being a sexual predator.

He said: "I don't wait" (for consent). "They let me." Not "They want me to." They LET him.

It's about what he can get away with, MrMonkeyMoustache. Not what the women want. He does not care about that. This is explicit in his words.

I'd say I can't believe you don't see this. But I think instead you're trying really, really hard not to see it.
"Well I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I weren't under such heavy sedation."   - David St. Hubins, This is Spinal Tap

Miskatonic

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3074 on: April 21, 2017, 08:19:06 AM »
Well, to be completely honest, with things like these, we see his words very differently. If we can't agree on what was even said, we'll never be able to agree on premises drawn from that.

Regarding not asking, plenty of people don't ask. When I have sex with my girlfriend, I don't ask, I just do it. Trump is saying that women are letting him, not because they're scared, but because he's rich. He's essentially saying that some women are gold diggers, which I think is pretty accurate.

Ho-ly shit.

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3075 on: April 21, 2017, 08:22:39 AM »


Agreed. I have been accosted before by a man who has pulled me in and kissed me before I had time to react. Or in Trump's terms, they "just kiss. They don't even wait."

I can assure you, I did NOT give my consent. And frankly, they deserved a good kick in the balls, which I was too shocked to give, unfortunately.

I imagine Trump (probably correctly) assumes the women he assaults will not kick him in the balls because he's rich and they're too afraid to give him what he deserves. That seems to be his vision of "consent" -- or, in his terms, "letting him." Not because they want him to. But in his own words, because he's a star. He knows he can do what he wants because he has power.

He's a pig. And let's not forget he was saying he does this while he was already married to Melania.
Those guys are definitely in the wrong. But what did Trump say that suggested he does that, knowing that they won't tell because they fear him?

At best, people are reaching. At worst, they're defaming him by accusing him of being a sexual predator.

He said: "I don't wait" (for consent). "They let me." Not "They want me to." They LET him.

It's about what he can get away with, MrMonkeyMoustache. Not what the women want. He does not care about that. This is explicit in his words.

I'd say I can't believe you don't see this. But I think instead you're trying really, really hard not to see it.
But you just added in "for consent". He didn't say that. Adding that in implies that he purposely ignores lack of consent, and knowingly does these things against their will. At best, you can say that he may have done it against a woman's consent without intention. What women, we have no idea, since this was just a general statement. That's all that can be certain. Anything else is pure speculation.

I just think it was a poor choice of words. Nothing he said in that indicates to me that he knowingly sexually assaults women. I think saying that is a huge reach.

Gin1984

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3076 on: April 21, 2017, 08:26:13 AM »

Donald Trump is a special case, not just because he's president, but because he literally bragged about his ability to sexual assault women and get away with it, then declared that he'd never really done that ... and then women came forward to say, "Yeah, that's basically exactly what he did to me."  It's like having a confession, but one not specific to each individual criminal accusation.
Anyways, his comments didn't describe sexual assault, it described women LETTING him do it. He literally said, "they let you do it." A far-cry from sexual assault, and clearly implying consent.

"I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait. 
And when you’re a star they let you do it. You can do anything…
Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything."

This does not describe a consensual situation.  At best, it's consent obtained after the fact, which is not a thing.  It's just sexual assault - but with the victim too scared to do anything about it.  If someone goes through his life behaving this way, he's an asshole and he belongs in jail.

You won't do well defending such a person.

Toque.

Well, to be completely honest, with things like these, we see his words very differently. If we can't agree on what was even said, we'll never be able to agree on premises drawn from that.

Regarding not asking, plenty of people don't ask. When I have sex with my girlfriend, I don't ask, I just do it. Trump is saying that women are letting him, not because they're scared, but because he's rich. He's essentially saying that some women are gold diggers, which I think is pretty accurate.

We don't see his words differently.  I see the words he's using, and you're pretending he said something else.
He is describing kissing and groping women he does not know, on a regular basis, without permission, or any other indications that his touch might be welcome or invited.
At best, it's sexual assault with permission after the fact.
At worst, he's saying he can get away with what he knows is wrong because he's famous and powerful.

There's nothing else there.  He said he gropes strange women and believes that either "they" (the women) or "they" (courts) will let him get away with it.

Don't bother trying to defend sexual assault any further.

Toque.
When did he say he touches women without permission? If I go in for a kiss, and a woman happily let's me, I didn't ask for permission, but I certainly received it.
You are adding in a word he did not.  Happily.  And women (and men for that matter) have been known to freeze when assaulted.  Letting because you did not stop them, is not consent.
I wasn't directly quoting him, I was using my own example where permission wasn't verbally given, but clearly consent was there.

And are you not doing the same, by saying that these women were not consenting? How can you say that? Especially when he's not even talking about any specific situation.

People are getting on his case as well about the pussy grabbing comments. But which actual women did he do that to? And when did he ever suggest that it was meant to be taken as against their consent?

Sure, there's no way right now for me to prove he didn't mean without consent. But the opposite is also true.
Given that multiple women have come out to say he assumed them, no I am not.  Nor would I be otherwise because "letting" does not imply consent. 

Miskatonic

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3077 on: April 21, 2017, 08:27:02 AM »


Agreed. I have been accosted before by a man who has pulled me in and kissed me before I had time to react. Or in Trump's terms, they "just kiss. They don't even wait."

I can assure you, I did NOT give my consent. And frankly, they deserved a good kick in the balls, which I was too shocked to give, unfortunately.

I imagine Trump (probably correctly) assumes the women he assaults will not kick him in the balls because he's rich and they're too afraid to give him what he deserves. That seems to be his vision of "consent" -- or, in his terms, "letting him." Not because they want him to. But in his own words, because he's a star. He knows he can do what he wants because he has power.

He's a pig. And let's not forget he was saying he does this while he was already married to Melania.
Those guys are definitely in the wrong. But what did Trump say that suggested he does that, knowing that they won't tell because they fear him?

At best, people are reaching. At worst, they're defaming him by accusing him of being a sexual predator.

He said: "I don't wait" (for consent). "They let me." Not "They want me to." They LET him.

It's about what he can get away with, MrMonkeyMoustache. Not what the women want. He does not care about that. This is explicit in his words.

I'd say I can't believe you don't see this. But I think instead you're trying really, really hard not to see it.
But you just added in "for consent". He didn't say that. Adding that in implies that he purposely ignores lack of consent, and knowingly does these things against their will. At best, you can say that he may have done it against a woman's consent without intention. What women, we have no idea, since this was just a general statement. That's all that can be certain. Anything else is pure speculation.

I just think it was a poor choice of words. Nothing he said in that indicates to me that he knowingly sexually assaults women. I think saying that is a huge reach.

If you don't wait, there can be no consent. Therefore, he does it without consent, regardless of whether or not they give consent "after the fact" (which is technically impossible). It doesn't matter that you think it was a poor choice of words - his words, taken at face value, clearly say that he does things against the woman's consent. You do the same, apparently.

caracarn

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3078 on: April 21, 2017, 08:31:17 AM »
WOW.  Not seen this thread until now.  Just reading the exchange between The Monkey and others I now further understand how this goof got elected.

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3079 on: April 21, 2017, 08:32:08 AM »


Agreed. I have been accosted before by a man who has pulled me in and kissed me before I had time to react. Or in Trump's terms, they "just kiss. They don't even wait."

I can assure you, I did NOT give my consent. And frankly, they deserved a good kick in the balls, which I was too shocked to give, unfortunately.

I imagine Trump (probably correctly) assumes the women he assaults will not kick him in the balls because he's rich and they're too afraid to give him what he deserves. That seems to be his vision of "consent" -- or, in his terms, "letting him." Not because they want him to. But in his own words, because he's a star. He knows he can do what he wants because he has power.

He's a pig. And let's not forget he was saying he does this while he was already married to Melania.
Those guys are definitely in the wrong. But what did Trump say that suggested he does that, knowing that they won't tell because they fear him?

At best, people are reaching. At worst, they're defaming him by accusing him of being a sexual predator.

He said: "I don't wait" (for consent). "They let me." Not "They want me to." They LET him.

It's about what he can get away with, MrMonkeyMoustache. Not what the women want. He does not care about that. This is explicit in his words.

I'd say I can't believe you don't see this. But I think instead you're trying really, really hard not to see it.
But you just added in "for consent". He didn't say that. Adding that in implies that he purposely ignores lack of consent, and knowingly does these things against their will. At best, you can say that he may have done it against a woman's consent without intention. What women, we have no idea, since this was just a general statement. That's all that can be certain. Anything else is pure speculation.

I just think it was a poor choice of words. Nothing he said in that indicates to me that he knowingly sexually assaults women. I think saying that is a huge reach.

If you don't wait, there can be no consent. Therefore, he does it without consent, regardless of whether or not they give consent "after the fact" (which is technically impossible). It doesn't matter that you think it was a poor choice of words - his words, taken at face value, clearly say that he does things against the woman's consent. You do the same, apparently.

So does that mean you believe you have to give verbal consent for it to exist? If I have sex with my GF, but she didn't verbally say yes, can she then come back and say I raped her? Just curious, not assuming you believe that.

@Gin Being accused of something doesn't make it any more or less real than it actually is. Maybe those claims are right. Maybe they're not. But there's absolutely zero evidence, so stating for a fact that he IS a predator is reactionary and ridiculous.

Now, I'm not saying it's the case, but do you think it's even possible that a few women jumped on an opportunity for a pay day when those comments came out? Do you think it's possible that those rape claims the night before the election were timed to prevent him from being elected?

OurTown

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3080 on: April 21, 2017, 08:36:58 AM »
Are you asking a legal or a moral question? 

Miskatonic

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3081 on: April 21, 2017, 08:41:54 AM »

So does that mean you believe you have to give verbal consent for it to exist? If I have sex with my GF, but she didn't verbally say yes, can she then come back and say I raped her? Just curious, not assuming you believe that.

@Gin Being accused of something doesn't make it any more or less real than it actually is. Maybe those claims are right. Maybe they're not. But there's absolutely zero evidence, so stating for a fact that he IS a predator is reactionary and ridiculous.

Now, I'm not saying it's the case, but do you think it's even possible that a few women jumped on an opportunity for a pay day when those comments came out? Do you think it's possible that those rape claims the night before the election were timed to prevent him from being elected?

1. Yes.
2. Yes, that's a possibility.
2a. I'm not saying you need a notarized letter giving consent, but a verbal acknowledgement of what is happening and that it is indeed wanted from both parties is totally natural.
3. You don't know for a fact that there's zero evidence. He's made plenty of settlements.
4. Yes, that's a possibility, but sexual assault is extremely serious and we must take such claims extremely seriously.
5. Do you really want to go down the "dubious claims made right before the election" rabbit hole?

caracarn

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3082 on: April 21, 2017, 08:42:51 AM »


Agreed. I have been accosted before by a man who has pulled me in and kissed me before I had time to react. Or in Trump's terms, they "just kiss. They don't even wait."

I can assure you, I did NOT give my consent. And frankly, they deserved a good kick in the balls, which I was too shocked to give, unfortunately.

I imagine Trump (probably correctly) assumes the women he assaults will not kick him in the balls because he's rich and they're too afraid to give him what he deserves. That seems to be his vision of "consent" -- or, in his terms, "letting him." Not because they want him to. But in his own words, because he's a star. He knows he can do what he wants because he has power.

He's a pig. And let's not forget he was saying he does this while he was already married to Melania.
Those guys are definitely in the wrong. But what did Trump say that suggested he does that, knowing that they won't tell because they fear him?

At best, people are reaching. At worst, they're defaming him by accusing him of being a sexual predator.

He said: "I don't wait" (for consent). "They let me." Not "They want me to." They LET him.

It's about what he can get away with, MrMonkeyMoustache. Not what the women want. He does not care about that. This is explicit in his words.

I'd say I can't believe you don't see this. But I think instead you're trying really, really hard not to see it.
But you just added in "for consent". He didn't say that. Adding that in implies that he purposely ignores lack of consent, and knowingly does these things against their will. At best, you can say that he may have done it against a woman's consent without intention. What women, we have no idea, since this was just a general statement. That's all that can be certain. Anything else is pure speculation.

I just think it was a poor choice of words. Nothing he said in that indicates to me that he knowingly sexually assaults women. I think saying that is a huge reach.

If you don't wait, there can be no consent. Therefore, he does it without consent, regardless of whether or not they give consent "after the fact" (which is technically impossible). It doesn't matter that you think it was a poor choice of words - his words, taken at face value, clearly say that he does things against the woman's consent. You do the same, apparently.

So does that mean you believe you have to give verbal consent for it to exist? If I have sex with my GF, but she didn't verbally say yes, can she then come back and say I raped her? Just curious, not assuming you believe that.


I'm just trying to understand, do you just grab her and start going at it without any conversation?  You may not mean to come across as such an aggressive person, but man these posts sure seem to point to the fact that because she is your GF you just think it's open season whenever you are ready to go.

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3083 on: April 21, 2017, 08:44:49 AM »
Okay, that's all I needed to hear. I don't think we're going to get anywhere with this conversation.

acroy

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3084 on: April 21, 2017, 08:45:38 AM »
Did anyone watch the tape, and think it was anything but Trump buffooning around, blowing smoke up the young guy's ass? C'mon.
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Miskatonic

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3085 on: April 21, 2017, 08:47:25 AM »
Okay, that's all I needed to hear. I don't think we're going to get anywhere with this conversation.

I knew this probably wasn't going anywhere the moment you said you have sex with your girlfriend without asking, but I hoped some sense could be talked into you. Good luck.

caracarn

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3086 on: April 21, 2017, 08:48:16 AM »
Did anyone watch the tape, and think it was anything but Trump buffooning around, blowing smoke up the young guy's ass? C'mon.
I "buffoon around" all the time with guys, but never in my wildest reality would I ever consider those types of comments appropriate.  So yes, I watched that tape and saw a very clear portrayal of his character and what and how he considers appropriate things to discuss with anyone.

acroy

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3087 on: April 21, 2017, 08:51:08 AM »
Did anyone watch the tape, and think it was anything but Trump buffooning around, blowing smoke up the young guy's ass? C'mon.
I "buffoon around" all the time with guys, but never in my wildest reality would I ever consider those types of comments appropriate.  So yes, I watched that tape and saw a very clear portrayal of his character and what and how he considers appropriate things to discuss with anyone.
So, it was inappropriate. Well said.
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radram

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3088 on: April 21, 2017, 08:52:46 AM »
Nothing he said in that indicates to me that he knowingly sexually assaults women. I think saying that is a huge reach.

In this comment I am reminded of Adrian Peterson and his child abuse case. He did to his child what was done to him. I believe that he truly believed he did nothing wrong. Society disagrees with him, and charged him with a crime. He pleaded no contest to a lesser charge. There are no reports of doing the same action.

It is possible Trump believed he did nothing wrong. It is also possible he was wrong and he committed a crime. My opinion is that he knew what he was saying was not a societal norm and not for everyone's ears.

I don't wait. They let me.

Those 6 words turning into an action, in my opinion, should be a crime. Some parts of society agree with me. In California, those 6 words followed by a grab are clearly a crime with the yes means yes law.



MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3089 on: April 21, 2017, 08:54:07 AM »
Okay, that's all I needed to hear. I don't think we're going to get anywhere with this conversation.

I knew this probably wasn't going anywhere the moment you said you have sex with your girlfriend without asking, but I hoped some sense could be talked into you. Good luck.
I do not rape my girlfriend, if that's what you are implying. Saying that you need verbal consent is absolutely ridiculous and not at all sexy. If my girlfriend gives me a sexy look, and then runs upstairs and lays on the bed naked, do you suggest that it could be rape unless I say, "wait a minute, sweetie, are you sure you want to do this"?

C'mon, that's not reality. And it more than a bit ridiculous.

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3090 on: April 21, 2017, 08:59:14 AM »


It is possible Trump believed he did nothing wrong. It is also possible he was wrong and he committed a crime.
Okay, it's possible, but there's no evidence we've seen that says a crime was committed.

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My opinion is that he knew what he was saying was not a societal norm and not for everyone's ears.
Okay, and he didn't say it for everybody to hear. He said it in private. Besides, it's not a crime to not follow norms.

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I don't wait. They let me.

Those 6 words turning into an action, in my opinion, should be a crime. Some parts of society agree with me. In California, those 6 words followed by a grab are clearly a crime with the yes means yes law.
Well, what action those 6 words would turn into is ambiguous at best.

As for the law, I don't agree with it, for the very premise that "ongoing consent" is also very ambiguous. Unless you suggest that every 30 seconds or so you need to say, "STOP! Girlfriend, is it okay if we continue to have sex?"

Miskatonic

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3091 on: April 21, 2017, 09:01:52 AM »
Okay, that's all I needed to hear. I don't think we're going to get anywhere with this conversation.

I knew this probably wasn't going anywhere the moment you said you have sex with your girlfriend without asking, but I hoped some sense could be talked into you. Good luck.
I do not rape my girlfriend, if that's what you are implying. Saying that you need verbal consent is absolutely ridiculous and not at all sexy. If my girlfriend gives me a sexy look, and then runs upstairs and lays on the bed naked, do you suggest that it could be rape unless I say, "wait a minute, sweetie, are you sure you want to do this"?

C'mon, that's not reality. And it more than a bit ridiculous.

Not ridiculous at all, and if the only way you can imagine getting consent is by asking like an awkward weirdo, well....I can't improve your social skills for you.

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3092 on: April 21, 2017, 09:05:34 AM »
Okay, that's all I needed to hear. I don't think we're going to get anywhere with this conversation.

I knew this probably wasn't going anywhere the moment you said you have sex with your girlfriend without asking, but I hoped some sense could be talked into you. Good luck.
I do not rape my girlfriend, if that's what you are implying. Saying that you need verbal consent is absolutely ridiculous and not at all sexy. If my girlfriend gives me a sexy look, and then runs upstairs and lays on the bed naked, do you suggest that it could be rape unless I say, "wait a minute, sweetie, are you sure you want to do this"?

C'mon, that's not reality. And it more than a bit ridiculous.

Not ridiculous at all, and if the only way you can imagine getting consent is by asking like an awkward weirdo, well....I can't improve your social skills for you.
But that's exactly what you're suggesting. Like it or not, consent CAN be given non-verbally.

If my girlfriend gives me a sexy look, tells me she has a present for me, rips her clothes off, runs upstairs, and lays naked on my bed, is that consent in your eyes? If not, I think your social skills need to be worked on far more than mine do. But, with your logic, that's not consent, and could be considered rape if she says so.

OurTown

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3093 on: April 21, 2017, 09:10:42 AM »
Jesus H. Tap-Dancing Christ.  Try to look at it from the other side.  Imagine you have a sister, or a daughter, and her boyfriend thinks he is the hottest shit in the history of mankind. You would not want that creep jumping her bones every chance he gets without her consent, would you?

Dabnasty

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3094 on: April 21, 2017, 09:14:57 AM »
I would agree that there is such a thing as non-verbal consent.

But that's not really the issue so let's stop arguing about irrelevant things. The issue is that he said he doesn't wait, and by that he is clearly implying that there is no time for consent, verbal or non-verbal. If not, why would he have followed that with "when you’re a star they let you do it. You can do anything"
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Miskatonic

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3095 on: April 21, 2017, 09:16:27 AM »
Okay, that's all I needed to hear. I don't think we're going to get anywhere with this conversation.

I knew this probably wasn't going anywhere the moment you said you have sex with your girlfriend without asking, but I hoped some sense could be talked into you. Good luck.
I do not rape my girlfriend, if that's what you are implying. Saying that you need verbal consent is absolutely ridiculous and not at all sexy. If my girlfriend gives me a sexy look, and then runs upstairs and lays on the bed naked, do you suggest that it could be rape unless I say, "wait a minute, sweetie, are you sure you want to do this"?

C'mon, that's not reality. And it more than a bit ridiculous.

Not ridiculous at all, and if the only way you can imagine getting consent is by asking like an awkward weirdo, well....I can't improve your social skills for you.
But that's exactly what you're suggesting. Like it or not, consent CAN be given non-verbally.

If my girlfriend gives me a sexy look, tells me she has a present for me, rips her clothes off, runs upstairs, and lays naked on my bed, is that consent in your eyes? If not, I think your social skills need to be worked on far more than mine do. But, with your logic, that's not consent, and could be considered rape if she says so.

You're presenting this increasingly elaborate little scenario to defend the incredibly stupid statement you made upthread. It's the very definition of moving the goalposts. Instead of delving into your fantasy role play, I'll just reiterate that consent is paramount.

But let's bring this back to Trump. Your little scenario seems to imply that you don't need consent because you have an established relationship with your girlfriend. Trump said he "just kisses" women that he doesn't have an established relationship with. What gives?

golden1

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3096 on: April 21, 2017, 09:18:12 AM »
This is fascinating, and a somewhat horrifying view into the perils of ingroup identity and how powerful it is.  It is astonishing that people can hear the same conversation and take completely different things out of it so that they stay within the peer group that they identify with.  When someone really buys into a person, they are able to discount any information that may be troubling. 

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Did anyone watch the tape, and think it was anything but Trump buffooning around, blowing smoke up the young guy's ass? C'mon.

That is one interpretation.  It isn't the interpretation I have.  When I heard him say it, my thoughts were that he was trying to impress Billy Bush by talking about how women were throwing himself at him, and how he could get away with a certain type of behavior because he was a wealthy celebrity.  That whole conversation curdled my stomach because it was plainly obvious that to him, women are decorations, status symbols to be flaunted so that other men would see how awesome he is for attracting a woman who looks like that.  It disgusted me.   I am a sexual assault survivor, and this is the type of thinking that allows men to take advantage of women.  He also implied that consent is irrelevant when one is rich and powerful and BRAGGED about it.  Honestly, everytime I see his face, those words run through my head.  He is a loathsome gargoyle, and I really have a hard time wrapping my brain around the idea of someone who listened to that tape and still checked the box next to his name.  Especially if they have wives and daughters. 

Serious question:  Picture Barack Obama saying the EXACT SAME words.  If you can honestly tell me that you would interpret what he said in the same way, I think you are lying.  You give Trump the benefit of the doubt because your ego requires it. 
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 09:22:06 AM by golden1 »

Dabnasty

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3097 on: April 21, 2017, 09:26:45 AM »
“If you could learn to cater to the king you wouldn’t have to live on rice and beans”…”If you could learn to live on rice and beans you wouldn’t have to cater to the king”

FrugalToque

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3098 on: April 21, 2017, 09:36:20 AM »
Quote
Did anyone watch the tape, and think it was anything but Trump buffooning around, blowing smoke up the young guy's ass? C'mon.

That is one interpretation.  It isn't the interpretation I have.  When I heard him say it, my thoughts were that he was trying to impress Billy Bush by talking about how women were throwing himself at him, and how he could get away with a certain type of behavior because he was a wealthy celebrity.

I would amend this in only one way:  He was trying to impress Billy Bush with how much his power let him get away with.  There was not any suggestion on his part that women threw themselves at him, just that they couldn't throw themselves out of the way fast enough and that was too bad for them.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3099 on: April 21, 2017, 09:50:40 AM »
Let's not forget that the behavior extends to underage girls, as well.
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His position as the pageant's owner entitled him to that kind of access, Trump explained, seemingly aware that what he was doing made the women uncomfortable. "You know, no men are anywhere. And I'm allowed to go in because I'm the owner of the pageant. And therefore I'm inspecting it... Is everyone OK? You know, they're standing there with no clothes. And you see these incredible-looking women. And so I sort of get away with things like that," he said.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/features/timeline-of-trumps-creepiness-while-he-owned-miss-universe-w444634