Author Topic: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?  (Read 204946 times)

Retire-Canada

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3000 on: April 19, 2017, 09:41:42 AM »
Trump is not a policy driven person, he's driven by his narcissistic need for adulation and praise. Trump doesn't understand policy, his policy thoughts are self-contradictory. Trump understands publicity, press coverage, ratings, and the art of the con. Trump likes gilded rooms, authoritarian leaders, showing off wealth, and obeisance from those around him.

Policy documents tend to be more than 1 page long so there is no way Trump could ever be a policy person. ;)

Unique User

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3001 on: April 19, 2017, 09:43:01 AM »

And this? There were numerous photos taken from a variety of vantage points throughout the day, all telling the same story.


No, the ones taken later in the day, while obviously not showing the biggest attendance in history, shows the media's attempt to suggest that he's so unpopular that only a few people came is simply not true. Or what about the rape allegations. Or people claiming that Trump's list (not his list) purposely didn't include countries he does business with. Or the Russian hacking allegations. Or the claim that he said that immigrants are rapists. Or the claim that he broke tax laws. Or that he's a sexual predator. All lies or unsubstantiated claims. All perpetuated by the left.

Are you so sure these are all lies or unsubstantiated claims?  But of course Obama wiretapped, Susan Rice committed a felony, Bill Clinton should have gone to jail for rape, etc, etc.

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3002 on: April 19, 2017, 09:43:26 AM »

I do think it is interesting to hear Trump supporters continually claim that the conservative right is getting bigger and bigger and 2018 will result in more GOP wins in the House and Senate.  This is only anecdotal, but I've spoken with many people since the election and many Independents voted for Republican House and Senate candidates since they thought Hilary was going to win and they are horrified at Trump. 


Well, I don't think any here on opposite sides of the spectrum will agree, so I'll leave with this: the same people that think Republicans will lose in '18 and '20 are the same ones that were absolutely certain that Clinton and the Democrats were going to demolish the elections. But they forget about the leaners. The people that lean in and whisper that they're voting for Trump, but won't say it in fear of backlash. But that fear goes away in the privacy of polling booths. And it showed on election night all across the country. It wasn't just Trump, it was every election that was held. Lots of closet conservatives.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3003 on: April 19, 2017, 09:50:50 AM »

I do think it is interesting to hear Trump supporters continually claim that the conservative right is getting bigger and bigger and 2018 will result in more GOP wins in the House and Senate.  This is only anecdotal, but I've spoken with many people since the election and many Independents voted for Republican House and Senate candidates since they thought Hilary was going to win and they are horrified at Trump. 


Well, I don't think any here on opposite sides of the spectrum will agree, so I'll leave with this: the same people that think Republicans will lose in '18 and '20 are the same ones that were absolutely certain that Clinton and the Democrats were going to demolish the elections. But they forget about the leaners. The people that lean in and whisper that they're voting for Trump, but won't say it in fear of backlash. But that fear goes away in the privacy of polling booths. And it showed on election night all across the country. It wasn't just Trump, it was every election that was held. Lots of closet conservatives.

Maybe, but many conservatives have forgotten about 2006.  And that the pendulum always swings back.  Always. 

NoStacheOhio

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3004 on: April 19, 2017, 09:54:50 AM »

And this? There were numerous photos taken from a variety of vantage points throughout the day, all telling the same story.


No, the ones taken later in the day, while obviously not showing the biggest attendance in history, shows the media's attempt to suggest that he's so unpopular that only a few people came is simply not true. Or what about the rape allegations. Or people claiming that Trump's list (not his list) purposely didn't include countries he does business with. Or the Russian hacking allegations. Or the claim that he said that immigrants are rapists. Or the claim that he broke tax laws. Or that he's a sexual predator. All lies or unsubstantiated claims. All perpetuated by the left.

This is rhetorical whack-a-mole. You're just throwing up a laundry list of crap that may or may not hold water, and then attributing it to a leftist conspiracy while being utterly un-critical of the administration's story.

I haven't seen anyone claim he broke tax law. I've seen plenty of claims that he's exploited tax law in bad faith and treats his vendors poorly.

Personally, I don't discount rape allegations out of hand, and I understand the reasons why it's so hard to get a conviction. Just going to lump this in with "sexual predator."

I've seen full clip of the rapists/immigrants thing, and I understand the nuance of what he said. I still think it's a deceptive statement.

I can't really make heads or tails of your "lists" comment.

The Russian hacking allegations are serious, and have been made by serious people with bona fides. I think we should look at them apolitically, which hasn't happened.

Well, I don't think any here on opposite sides of the spectrum will agree, so I'll leave with this: the same people that think Republicans will lose in '18 and '20 are the same ones that were absolutely certain that Clinton and the Democrats were going to demolish the elections. But they forget about the leaners. The people that lean in and whisper that they're voting for Trump, but won't say it in fear of backlash. But that fear goes away in the privacy of polling booths. And it showed on election night all across the country. It wasn't just Trump, it was every election that was held. Lots of closet conservatives.

FiveThirtyEight had a whole series dissecting the 2016 election results versus polls, and the number of closeted Trump supporters was pretty insignificant compared to other factors.

If there were so many closet conservatives, then why did so many increased minimum wage laws pass? Marijuana legalization?
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

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BuffaloStache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3005 on: April 19, 2017, 10:05:40 AM »
Interjection with a lighthearted take on a serious issue. This website is awesome:

https://istrumpatmaralago.org
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3006 on: April 19, 2017, 10:57:02 AM »

And this? There were numerous photos taken from a variety of vantage points throughout the day, all telling the same story.

No, the ones taken later in the day, while obviously not showing the biggest attendance in history, shows the media's attempt to suggest that he's so unpopular that only a few people came is simply not true. Or what about the rape allegations. Or people claiming that Trump's list (not his list) purposely didn't include countries he does business with. Or the Russian hacking allegations. Or the claim that he said that immigrants are rapists. Or the claim that he broke tax laws. Or that he's a sexual predator. All lies or unsubstantiated claims. All perpetuated by the left.
Color me baffled why you would consider many of your examples "lies or unsubstantiated claims" that are "all perpetuated by the left".
There are three FBI probes into Russian hacking, and both the CIA and FBI have said publicly that Russia attempted to interfere with the election (source)

I wouldn't go so far as to call Trump a rapist, but his sexual improprieties have been extensively documented, not just by the lewd comments on the 'hot-mic' Hollywood Access video, but on air with Howard Stern, covered in the tabloids during his last two divorces, and on the set of The Apprentice.

Like NoStacheOhio said I haven't it said that he's cheated on his taxes, but his utter lack of transparency doesn't help things.  A bigger concern to me is potential conflicts of interest, which he also won't disclose.

I share your frustration that some left-leaning individuals label republicans as being racist bigots and how that can be counterproductive, but it certainly isn't everyone, or even a majority (unless you'd like to provide a source showing how I"m wrong).

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Malaysia41

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3007 on: April 19, 2017, 11:33:24 AM »


I share your frustration that some left-leaning individuals label republicans as being racist bigots and how that can be counterproductive, but it certainly isn't everyone, or even a majority (unless you'd like to provide a source showing how I"m wrong).

I don't understand why so many Republicans all of a sudden need the approval/acceptance of the 'left'  - approval from the very people they've demonized for decades. If you've been calling me 'bleeding heart' /  Chairman Mao / evil liberal elite / idiot leftist for 20 years, I'm not exactly going to embrace you when you gleefully support a lecherous egotist of such low character as Trump.

Why am I expected to shrug that name-calling off, but a Republican can't take being called racist? (Not that I've personally called anyone racist - but IMO if you don't understand the legacy of the post-reconstruction prison-lease system you have no standing to have any sort of a claim that the US is 'post racial' or color blind or that somehow racism isn't endemic in our justice system).

Why would a Republican need my acceptance after calling me so many derisive names for so long? Not that I identify as any particular label. I was registered GOP for 20 years for goodness sakes. But I'll take science and humanity over plutocracy and darwinianism every time, so I if I had to pick a label I'd currently identify as progressive liberal. I'm a big fan of government protecting all of our rights, unlike Trump's AG Jeff Sessions who not only supports Civil Asset Forfeiture ( a clear violation of 4th and 5th amendments), but also supports the war on drugs - a clear violation of my personal liberties as well. But those laws won't apply to the elite classes of wealth so Sessions and Trump don't see what the hullabaloo's about.

Anyone who supports the GOP at this point clearly craves plutocracy and darwinian winner-takes-all society.  And guess what - you've got it. You won. You don't get hugs and loves and acceptance from me too.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 11:40:48 AM by Malaysia41 »
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Kris

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3008 on: April 19, 2017, 11:57:11 AM »


I share your frustration that some left-leaning individuals label republicans as being racist bigots and how that can be counterproductive, but it certainly isn't everyone, or even a majority (unless you'd like to provide a source showing how I"m wrong).

I don't understand why so many Republicans all of a sudden need the approval/acceptance of the 'left'  - approval from the very people they've demonized for decades. If you've been calling me 'bleeding heart' /  Chairman Mao / evil liberal elite / idiot leftist for 20 years, I'm not exactly going to embrace you when you gleefully support a lecherous egotist of such low character as Trump.

Why am I expected to shrug that name-calling off, but a Republican can't take being called racist? (Not that I've personally called anyone racist - but IMO if you don't understand the legacy of the post-reconstruction prison-lease system you have no standing to have any sort of a claim that the US is 'post racial' or color blind or that somehow racism isn't endemic in our justice system).

Why would a Republican need my acceptance after calling me so many derisive names for so long? Not that I identify as any particular label. I was registered GOP for 20 years for goodness sakes. But I'll take science and humanity over plutocracy and darwinianism every time, so I if I had to pick a label I'd currently identify as progressive liberal. I'm a big fan of government protecting all of our rights, unlike Trump's AG Jeff Sessions who not only supports Civil Asset Forfeiture ( a clear violation of 4th and 5th amendments), but also supports the war on drugs - a clear violation of my personal liberties as well. But those laws won't apply to the elite classes of wealth so Sessions and Trump don't see what the hullabaloo's about.

Anyone who supports the GOP at this point clearly craves plutocracy and darwinian winner-takes-all society.  And guess what - you've got it. You won. You don't get hugs and loves and acceptance from me too.

On a related note, I find it interesting and kind of infuriating when people say that the Democratic Party lost because their policies don't help the working class that voted Trump. As though the GOP, or any of the policies that Trump will enact, will actually end up helping them. Trump won because he exploited the fears and frustrations of his base for his own political gain and financial gain. End of story. Any non-billionaire supporter of his will get nothing in exchange for their support. In fact, it’s reasonable to assume Trump supporters as a whole will be worse off at the end of his presidency, as a direct result of the things he does. And they will likely still be crowing about how he won, like it was some sort of personal victory for them, instead of just a money-making opportunity for him. They’ve been duped, and they think they’ve actually won something more than just a hollow victory to throw in the face of their hated “libtard” bogeymen. And that is very, very sad.

On an also-related note, I think maybe Trae Crowder should be appointed to take over leadership of the DNC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CnayKa3EKs
« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 11:59:16 AM by Kris »
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

DoubleDown

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3009 on: April 19, 2017, 12:50:43 PM »
Klaus Von Klausowitz, Bavarian pipe fitter from Germany's Rust Belt, supporter of Adolf Hitler, one of the "forgotten Germans," speaking on Hitler's recent election victory in 1932:

"What the left doesn't get is that Adolf Hitler won because he tells it like it is, and for his policies. He's making Germany Great Again. German working people were getting tired of being vilified by the left, and the country being mistreated after The Great War to End All Wars. If you disagree with the liberals here, your chocolate shop or pretzel factory gets burned down by liberal anarchists. We're tired of getting yelled at just because of our conservative views. That's why Mr. Hitler won 99.9% of the popular vote and has such large turnouts at his rallies (Joseph Goebells has verified those figures).

Adolf Hitler is going to bring back jobs to Germany. There will be so many manufacturing jobs. And he's strong on the military -- I like that. Liberals keep screaming about how Hitler is a fascist, and saying all his supporters are fascists and racists. The European press keeps putting out "fake news" about how Hitler wants to get rid of Jews and gypsies and homosexuals and invade Poland. They don't even give him a chance. They don't realize how many of us like what Hitler says, we just don't go around saying it out loud, otherwise we get attacked for our views. Keep it up, and you'll all be surprised when he's re-elected in '36 and '40 and '44 and '48 and '52..."

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bacchi

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3010 on: April 19, 2017, 12:54:16 PM »
In fact, it’s reasonable to assume Trump supporters as a whole will be worse off at the end of his presidency, as a direct result of the things he does. And they will likely still be crowing about how he won, like it was some sort of personal victory for them, instead of just a money-making opportunity for him. They’ve been duped, and they think they’ve actually won something more than just a hollow victory to throw in the face of their hated “libtard” bogeymen. And that is very, very sad.

I think some are realizing that they've been duped, given the recent Kansas and Georgia elections in strongly conservative districts. Ossof almost won outright (it's now a runoff) in a district that went 62% in 2016 for Tom Price. There's a shift happening and it's not looking good for the GOP.

Quote from: 538
The Republican +2 aggregate margin in Georgia 6 implies a national environment in which Democrats are competitive in a bunch of GOP-held House seats in 2018.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/5-takeaways-from-the-georgia-6-special-election-results/

Quote from: 538
The Georgia 6 Democrats outperformed the weighted average by 7.5 percentage points. In Kansas 4, Democrat James Thompson beat it by 22 points.

Kris

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3011 on: April 19, 2017, 01:07:11 PM »
In fact, it’s reasonable to assume Trump supporters as a whole will be worse off at the end of his presidency, as a direct result of the things he does. And they will likely still be crowing about how he won, like it was some sort of personal victory for them, instead of just a money-making opportunity for him. They’ve been duped, and they think they’ve actually won something more than just a hollow victory to throw in the face of their hated “libtard” bogeymen. And that is very, very sad.

I think some are realizing that they've been duped, given the recent Kansas and Georgia elections in strongly conservative districts. Ossof almost won outright (it's now a runoff) in a district that went 62% in 2016 for Tom Price. There's a shift happening and it's not looking good for the GOP.

Quote from: 538
The Republican +2 aggregate margin in Georgia 6 implies a national environment in which Democrats are competitive in a bunch of GOP-held House seats in 2018.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/5-takeaways-from-the-georgia-6-special-election-results/

Quote from: 538
The Georgia 6 Democrats outperformed the weighted average by 7.5 percentage points. In Kansas 4, Democrat James Thompson beat it by 22 points.

There will be some who figure it out. How many, we'll have to see.

But there will be a good number of them who will never see it.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

bacchi

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3012 on: April 19, 2017, 01:13:50 PM »
There will be some who figure it out. How many, we'll have to see.

But there will be a good number of them who will never see it.

True enough. Hey, almost 25% think Nixon didn't do anything wrong. Can't help those people.

In more good news, Bill O'Reilly was cut from Fox News. The settlement costs must be mounting. Also, Alex Jones might be on the list of has-beens depending on his custody trial. Tough decision for him -- act like an ass, keep his show but (probably) lose his children; act like a rational adult, keep his children but (probably) lose serious viewer numbers.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3013 on: April 19, 2017, 01:16:11 PM »

In more good news, Bill O'Reilly was cut from Fox News. The settlement costs must be mounting. Also, Alex Jones might be on the list of has-beens depending on his custody trial. Tough decision for him -- act like an ass, keep his show but (probably) lose his children; act like a rational adult, keep his children but (probably) lose serious viewer numbers.

If he were mustachian, he could choose #2 and call it "retirement."
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MDM

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3014 on: April 19, 2017, 02:01:36 PM »
As has been mentioned, Canada has a history of doing bad stuff in the name of eugenics too.  I'm trying to point out that the (apparently commonly held by Americans) belief in the moral superiority of the United States comes more from jingoism than reality.
All countries have skeletons in their closets, some worse than others - no disagreement there. 

Here in the US, you can get ~50% of the population to agree we are on a morally bankrupt highway to hell every time we switch presidents.  Of course, it's a different 50% depending on who won. 

Short of murder (and the all too high number of that example: Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, etc.), the forced sterilization of ~100 million women is at least in contention for the absolute worst governmental action, and I would hope all agree that it was "a very bad thing" without the need to lessen that fact by saying "but _____ did [something bad] also."


acroy

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3015 on: April 19, 2017, 03:02:26 PM »
So far I think he's doing fine.

Good stuff:
- Small business confidence WAY up. This is a big deal; growth and innovation come from small businesses, not the SP500 group-think gorillas.
http://www.nfib.com/surveys/small-business-economic-trends/
- N Korea recast as a China problem. Total negotiating badassity shown here.
- Strong message to world's minor dictatorships with Syria and MOAB strikes.
- Stopped some of the most egregious regulatory attacks on business; specifically energy
- Gorsuch. GORSUUUCH!!
- Defunded some federal abortion subsidies
- Law and Order. Trying to enforce immigration law. Illegal immigration way down.
- Badass heads for VA, Dept of Education, State Dept. Current VA is a disgrace; our education system maybe worse.
- Leading from the Front, domestically and internationally, torpedoes be damned
- Calling out Mainstream media. Great entertainment. Forcing the 4th estate into desperate hysterics. Media approval rating at all time lows.
- EO in support of 2nd Amendment
- Federal hiring freeze
- General panic and unrest in the Swamp. Excellent. He sure has the right enemies.
- Fast learner. He's never been a politician before. He's a quick study.
- Tax reform. we know it's coming, just not when or how much.

Concerning:
- Flips on foreign policy. This could be good: showing adaptability. He has more information now as Commander in Chief than as a private citizen. Or this could be bad: Converted by the military industrial complex?
- 'rushed' O-care vote. May be good: quickly identified the 'lay of the land' in the House. 'Know thy enemies' and all that. May be bad: too willing to compromise? Overall, I think the vote, pass or fail was a political win for Trump.

Bad
- Pettiness. Grow up. Then again, he warned us....

By the way, the Russian thing:
https://spectator.org/confirmed-john-brennan-colluded-with-foreign-spies-to-defeat-trump/
"One side did collude with foreign powers to tip the election — Hillary’s."
MSM pays this no mind. This kind of shennanigans is why we have a Trump in the WH, not a Cruz, or another Bush, or another Clinton....
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scottish

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3016 on: April 19, 2017, 05:26:09 PM »
Hey Acroy, what do you mean by this?

Quote
N Korea recast as a China problem. Total negotiating badassity shown here.

Glenstache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3017 on: April 19, 2017, 06:17:25 PM »
A medium length essay worth a read to the end.
http://www.stonekettle.com/2017/04/the-hubris-of-ignorance.html

bacchi

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3018 on: April 19, 2017, 06:32:40 PM »
- 'rushed' O-care vote. May be good: quickly identified the 'lay of the land' in the House. 'Know thy enemies' and all that. May be bad: too willing to compromise? Overall, I think the vote, pass or fail was a political win for Trump.

You do realize that Day 1 has come and gone, right? The objective was to Repeal and Replace. That actually hasn't happened.

http://www.redstate.com/sweetie15/2017/03/24/fact-check-trump-promise-repeal-replace-obamacare-day-one-video/

I think your statement above belongs in the "OP is the only one who doesn't see it" thread.

Quote from: Trump
"Nobody knew health care could be this complicated."
« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 06:35:35 PM by bacchi »

dividendman

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3019 on: April 19, 2017, 07:52:44 PM »
- Tax reform. we know it's coming, just not when or how much.

Not sure how something that hasn't happened can fall in the "good stuff so far" bucket.

But anyway, this is what it all comes down to. Republicans are in charge of EVERYTHING. If they can't get a significant tax reform package done then they are just a useless party. Do nothing in opposition, do nothing in government. Republicans have been crying about high taxes for as long as I can remember, way longer than repealing the ACA.

Hopefully they simplify the tax code and get rid of all of these deductions and loopholes.  Especially the big ones like the mortgage deduction, the deductions for kids, etc. Then they can lower the rates for everyone.

I can hope, but I don't think they'll be able to agree on anything just like health care. They don't like the current system sure, but can't agree on a different one, so the status quo will prevail.

scottish

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3020 on: April 19, 2017, 08:17:38 PM »
Hey, I like the stonekettle website.   I just read this article, and I'm going to give it a try.   http://www.stonekettle.com/2012/09/unreasonable-people.html   Time to cut back on Canadian politeness and accomodation!

Republicans are like the Canadian conservative party.   They tell a good story about fiscal responsibility, and self determination and so on.   But when it comes to actions, they seem fundamentally incapable of follow-through.   Like that fellow who told his constituents they don't have to use the internet if they don't like the lack of privacy.   Or the other fellow who told his constituents they should spend their money on health care instead of iPhones.   Who do those f***kers think they work for anyway?


lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3021 on: April 19, 2017, 09:57:06 PM »
A medium length essay worth a read to the end.
http://www.stonekettle.com/2017/04/the-hubris-of-ignorance.html
It's funny to me that the above essay proclaims "The world is a dangerous and complicated place" and yet is framed by a Bobcat Goldthwait quote where the comedian is declaring the boneheaded simplicity of air accident investigations: Reagan fired air traffic controllers in 1981 so naturally inexperienced replacement air traffic controllers are the cause of subsequent accidents (which isn't true, and the only example within 6 years of 1981 which was only partially attributed to air traffic guidance problems in the US was mostly pilot error where two private craft simultaneously breached the terminal control area without permission).

It's obvious to the author of the essay that Trump needs expert judgement in his administration, but it's apparently not obvious that we should consult the NTSB judgements rather than comedians when trying to make a rhetorical point (because, you know, reality has this habit of being complicated, much to the annoyance of all political creeds).

I agree with much of the essay otherwise, though I hate how it is written.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3022 on: April 20, 2017, 05:54:40 AM »
Who do those f***kers think they work for anyway?

In the U.S., the answer is generally Lockheed-Martin or Pfizer.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

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nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3023 on: April 20, 2017, 06:01:15 AM »
A medium length essay worth a read to the end.
http://www.stonekettle.com/2017/04/the-hubris-of-ignorance.html

A thought exercise...
Ask yourself -
Under what conditions would you expect management to be ineffective?  (1)
What conditions would make corruption/theft/embezzlement most likely? (2)
When would catastrophic failures be most likely? (3)

(my incomplete answers)*
1: lack of experience, poor communication, no clear vision or concise plan, no agreed upon quantitative measurements for success
2: lack of transparency, financial conflicts of interest, positions awarded based on loyalty and kinship and not productivity or experience, no accountability
3: poor or no oversight, no clearly defined management plan, short term goals prioritized over long term viability.

* I pulled these from a book on effective management I've been reading.
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3024 on: April 20, 2017, 09:56:31 AM »
A medium length essay worth a read to the end.
http://www.stonekettle.com/2017/04/the-hubris-of-ignorance.html
It's funny to me that the above essay proclaims "The world is a dangerous and complicated place" and yet is framed by a Bobcat Goldthwait quote where the comedian is declaring the boneheaded simplicity of air accident investigations: Reagan fired air traffic controllers in 1981 so naturally inexperienced replacement air traffic controllers are the cause of subsequent accidents (which isn't true, and the only example within 6 years of 1981 which was only partially attributed to air traffic guidance problems in the US was mostly pilot error where two private craft simultaneously breached the terminal control area without permission).

It's obvious to the author of the essay that Trump needs expert judgement in his administration, but it's apparently not obvious that we should consult the NTSB judgements rather than comedians when trying to make a rhetorical point (because, you know, reality has this habit of being complicated, much to the annoyance of all political creeds).

I agree with much of the essay otherwise, though I hate how it is written.

I can't speak for the author but I'm pretty confident Goldthwait's comments on the simplicity of the situation was not why he used this quote. The point was to use the last line for comedic effect - "I dunno, maybe Walt the janitor isn’t qualified to land a Boeing 707!” - and he used the entire quote to give it context.

It's just a bit of a coincidence that the first part contradicts the idea that things are often more complicated than they seem. But I'd also venture a guess that not even Goldthwait believes it's that simple... he's a comedian, they're generally not being too serious.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 11:21:21 AM by Dabnasty »
“If you could learn to cater to the king you wouldn’t have to live on rice and beans”…”If you could learn to live on rice and beans you wouldn’t have to cater to the king”

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3025 on: April 20, 2017, 04:25:27 PM »

Color me baffled why you would consider many of your examples "lies or unsubstantiated claims" that are "all perpetuated by the left".
Because none of these claims have been PROVEN, except some that have been proven to be FALSE.

Quote
There are three FBI probes into Russian hacking, and both the CIA and FBI have said publicly that Russia attempted to interfere with the election (source)
And that ties Trump to it, how?

Quote
I wouldn't go so far as to call Trump a rapist, but his sexual improprieties have been extensively documented, not just by the lewd comments on the 'hot-mic' Hollywood Access video, but on air with Howard Stern, covered in the tabloids during his last two divorces, and on the set of The Apprentice.
So why dispute the point if you're not calling him a rapist? Many ARE calling him a rapist and predator, when he's not.

Quote
Like NoStacheOhio said I haven't it said that he's cheated on his taxes, but his utter lack of transparency doesn't help things.  A bigger concern to me is potential conflicts of interest, which he also won't disclose.
POTENTIAL conflicts. So nothing is proven, meaning it's pointless to bring up and hold it against him.

Quote
I share your frustration that some left-leaning individuals label republicans as being racist bigots and how that can be counterproductive, but it certainly isn't everyone, or even a majority (unless you'd like to provide a source showing how I"m wrong).
I won't say it's the majority of people, but certainly the majority of the mainstream media. Trump could say, "hi, how are you doing", and people would find some way to link that to Hitler.

scottish

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3026 on: April 20, 2017, 07:27:30 PM »


Quote
I wouldn't go so far as to call Trump a rapist, but his sexual improprieties have been extensively documented, not just by the lewd comments on the 'hot-mic' Hollywood Access video, but on air with Howard Stern, covered in the tabloids during his last two divorces, and on the set of The Apprentice.
So why dispute the point if you're not calling him a rapist? Many ARE calling him a rapist and predator, when he's not.


The point is that he's setting a terrible role model.   Now everyone sees that it's ok to sexually harass women because you can do this and still be the POTUS.

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3027 on: April 20, 2017, 07:30:16 PM »


Quote
I wouldn't go so far as to call Trump a rapist, but his sexual improprieties have been extensively documented, not just by the lewd comments on the 'hot-mic' Hollywood Access video, but on air with Howard Stern, covered in the tabloids during his last two divorces, and on the set of The Apprentice.
So why dispute the point if you're not calling him a rapist? Many ARE calling him a rapist and predator, when he's not.


The point is that he's setting a terrible role model.   Now everyone sees that it's ok to sexually harass women because you can do this and still be the POTUS.
Trump didn't sexually harass anyone. He made a comment about golddiggers.

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3028 on: April 20, 2017, 07:53:01 PM »


Quote
I wouldn't go so far as to call Trump a rapist, but his sexual improprieties have been extensively documented, not just by the lewd comments on the 'hot-mic' Hollywood Access video, but on air with Howard Stern, covered in the tabloids during his last two divorces, and on the set of The Apprentice.
So why dispute the point if you're not calling him a rapist? Many ARE calling him a rapist and predator, when he's not.


The point is that he's setting a terrible role model.   Now everyone sees that it's ok to sexually harass women because you can do this and still be the POTUS.
Trump didn't sexually harass anyone. He made a comment about golddiggers.

Oh that's a relief that you know that, I thought all these women claimed he harassed them.

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3029 on: April 20, 2017, 07:58:08 PM »


Quote
I wouldn't go so far as to call Trump a rapist, but his sexual improprieties have been extensively documented, not just by the lewd comments on the 'hot-mic' Hollywood Access video, but on air with Howard Stern, covered in the tabloids during his last two divorces, and on the set of The Apprentice.
So why dispute the point if you're not calling him a rapist? Many ARE calling him a rapist and predator, when he's not.


The point is that he's setting a terrible role model.   Now everyone sees that it's ok to sexually harass women because you can do this and still be the POTUS.
Trump didn't sexually harass anyone. He made a comment about golddiggers.

Oh that's a relief that you know that, I thought all these women claimed he harassed them.
Anyone can make a claim. Where's the evident? Guess that whole innocent until proven guilty thing doesn't apply to Trump?

JLee

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3030 on: April 20, 2017, 08:05:48 PM »


Quote
I wouldn't go so far as to call Trump a rapist, but his sexual improprieties have been extensively documented, not just by the lewd comments on the 'hot-mic' Hollywood Access video, but on air with Howard Stern, covered in the tabloids during his last two divorces, and on the set of The Apprentice.
So why dispute the point if you're not calling him a rapist? Many ARE calling him a rapist and predator, when he's not.


The point is that he's setting a terrible role model.   Now everyone sees that it's ok to sexually harass women because you can do this and still be the POTUS.
Trump didn't sexually harass anyone. He made a comment about golddiggers.

Oh that's a relief that you know that, I thought all these women claimed he harassed them.
Anyone can make a claim. Where's the evident? Guess that whole innocent until proven guilty thing doesn't apply to Trump?

Innocent until proven guilty applies to the justice system, not to public opinion. In short, it means that the burden of proof is on the prosecution to prove guilt, not on the defense to prove innocence.

You have specifically claimed that "Trump didn't sexually harass anyone."  That is highly suspect.

http://www.npr.org/2016/10/13/497799354/a-list-of-donald-trumps-accusers-of-inappropriate-sexual-conduct

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3031 on: April 20, 2017, 08:09:33 PM »


Quote
I wouldn't go so far as to call Trump a rapist, but his sexual improprieties have been extensively documented, not just by the lewd comments on the 'hot-mic' Hollywood Access video, but on air with Howard Stern, covered in the tabloids during his last two divorces, and on the set of The Apprentice.
So why dispute the point if you're not calling him a rapist? Many ARE calling him a rapist and predator, when he's not.


The point is that he's setting a terrible role model.   Now everyone sees that it's ok to sexually harass women because you can do this and still be the POTUS.
Trump didn't sexually harass anyone. He made a comment about golddiggers.

Oh that's a relief that you know that, I thought all these women claimed he harassed them.
Anyone can make a claim. Where's the evident? Guess that whole innocent until proven guilty thing doesn't apply to Trump?

Innocent until proven guilty applies to the justice system, not to public opinion. You yourself have specifically claimed that "Trump didn't sexually harass anyone."  That is highly suspect.

http://www.npr.org/2016/10/13/497799354/a-list-of-donald-trumps-accusers-of-inappropriate-sexual-conduct
Again, accusations don't mean anything at all. Obviously courts don't deal with public opinion, but saying or even implying someone is a sexual predator with ZERO evidence is ridiculous.

What if I and four others accuse you of sexual harassment right now? Would it be okay for all of America to then  hold that over your head?

It's just pretty ridiculous to use accusations as a point against Trump. Accusations are not proof.

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3032 on: April 20, 2017, 08:12:54 PM »
It's not just the accusations by several women, it's also his own words of how he will just sexually assault a woman when he feels like it, because he can get away with it.  So Trump's message: if you can get away with it, go for it.

JLee

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3033 on: April 20, 2017, 08:14:00 PM »


Quote
I wouldn't go so far as to call Trump a rapist, but his sexual improprieties have been extensively documented, not just by the lewd comments on the 'hot-mic' Hollywood Access video, but on air with Howard Stern, covered in the tabloids during his last two divorces, and on the set of The Apprentice.
So why dispute the point if you're not calling him a rapist? Many ARE calling him a rapist and predator, when he's not.


The point is that he's setting a terrible role model.   Now everyone sees that it's ok to sexually harass women because you can do this and still be the POTUS.
Trump didn't sexually harass anyone. He made a comment about golddiggers.

Oh that's a relief that you know that, I thought all these women claimed he harassed them.
Anyone can make a claim. Where's the evident? Guess that whole innocent until proven guilty thing doesn't apply to Trump?

Innocent until proven guilty applies to the justice system, not to public opinion. You yourself have specifically claimed that "Trump didn't sexually harass anyone."  That is highly suspect.

http://www.npr.org/2016/10/13/497799354/a-list-of-donald-trumps-accusers-of-inappropriate-sexual-conduct
Again, accusations don't mean anything at all. Obviously courts don't deal with public opinion, but saying or even implying someone is a sexual predator with ZERO evidence is ridiculous.

What if I and four others accuse you of sexual harassment right now? Would it be okay for all of America to then  hold that over your head?

It's just pretty ridiculous to use accusations as a point against Trump. Accusations are not proof.

It is equally ridiculous to dismiss a pattern of accusations because the alleged offender denies them. Are you aware that Trump has had multiple lawsuits claiming assault and/or sexual harassment beginning more than 20 years ago?

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3034 on: April 20, 2017, 08:14:56 PM »
It's not just the accusations by several women, it's also his own words of how he will just sexually assault a woman when he feels like it, because he can get away with it.  So Trump's message: if you can get away with it, go for it.
That's not what he said at all, and you know it. He wasn't saying he sexually assaults anyone, he was saying that gold digging women let rich guys do anything they want. And they do. They LET them.

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3035 on: April 20, 2017, 08:16:09 PM »


Quote
I wouldn't go so far as to call Trump a rapist, but his sexual improprieties have been extensively documented, not just by the lewd comments on the 'hot-mic' Hollywood Access video, but on air with Howard Stern, covered in the tabloids during his last two divorces, and on the set of The Apprentice.
So why dispute the point if you're not calling him a rapist? Many ARE calling him a rapist and predator, when he's not.


The point is that he's setting a terrible role model.   Now everyone sees that it's ok to sexually harass women because you can do this and still be the POTUS.
Trump didn't sexually harass anyone. He made a comment about golddiggers.

Oh that's a relief that you know that, I thought all these women claimed he harassed them.
Anyone can make a claim. Where's the evident? Guess that whole innocent until proven guilty thing doesn't apply to Trump?

Innocent until proven guilty applies to the justice system, not to public opinion. You yourself have specifically claimed that "Trump didn't sexually harass anyone."  That is highly suspect.

http://www.npr.org/2016/10/13/497799354/a-list-of-donald-trumps-accusers-of-inappropriate-sexual-conduct
Again, accusations don't mean anything at all. Obviously courts don't deal with public opinion, but saying or even implying someone is a sexual predator with ZERO evidence is ridiculous.

What if I and four others accuse you of sexual harassment right now? Would it be okay for all of America to then  hold that over your head?

It's just pretty ridiculous to use accusations as a point against Trump. Accusations are not proof.

It is equally ridiculous to dismiss a pattern of accusations because the alleged offender denies them. Are you aware that Trump has had multiple lawsuits claiming assault and/or sexual harassment beginning more than 20 years ago?
So as long as multiple people accuse you, it suddenly means it's somehow more valid?

Lagom

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3036 on: April 20, 2017, 08:16:51 PM »
It's not just the accusations by several women, it's also his own words of how he will just sexually assault a woman when he feels like it, because he can get away with it.  So Trump's message: if you can get away with it, go for it.
That's not what he said at all, and you know it. He wasn't saying he sexually assaults anyone, he was saying that gold digging women let rich guys do anything they want. And they do. They LET them.

Wow. Just wow. Let me guess, you're a MRA?

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3037 on: April 20, 2017, 08:19:52 PM »
It's not just the accusations by several women, it's also his own words of how he will just sexually assault a woman when he feels like it, because he can get away with it.  So Trump's message: if you can get away with it, go for it.
That's not what he said at all, and you know it. He wasn't saying he sexually assaults anyone, he was saying that gold digging women let rich guys do anything they want. And they do. They LET them.
Or...I simply listened to what he said. If you think he was saying that he'd touch women against their will, we listened to two very different tapes. What specifically did he say that makes you think he did so without consent?

Wow. Just wow. Let me guess, you're a MRA?

JLee

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3038 on: April 20, 2017, 08:21:36 PM »


Quote
I wouldn't go so far as to call Trump a rapist, but his sexual improprieties have been extensively documented, not just by the lewd comments on the 'hot-mic' Hollywood Access video, but on air with Howard Stern, covered in the tabloids during his last two divorces, and on the set of The Apprentice.
So why dispute the point if you're not calling him a rapist? Many ARE calling him a rapist and predator, when he's not.


The point is that he's setting a terrible role model.   Now everyone sees that it's ok to sexually harass women because you can do this and still be the POTUS.
Trump didn't sexually harass anyone. He made a comment about golddiggers.

Oh that's a relief that you know that, I thought all these women claimed he harassed them.
Anyone can make a claim. Where's the evident? Guess that whole innocent until proven guilty thing doesn't apply to Trump?

Innocent until proven guilty applies to the justice system, not to public opinion. You yourself have specifically claimed that "Trump didn't sexually harass anyone."  That is highly suspect.

http://www.npr.org/2016/10/13/497799354/a-list-of-donald-trumps-accusers-of-inappropriate-sexual-conduct
Again, accusations don't mean anything at all. Obviously courts don't deal with public opinion, but saying or even implying someone is a sexual predator with ZERO evidence is ridiculous.

What if I and four others accuse you of sexual harassment right now? Would it be okay for all of America to then  hold that over your head?

It's just pretty ridiculous to use accusations as a point against Trump. Accusations are not proof.

It is equally ridiculous to dismiss a pattern of accusations because the alleged offender denies them. Are you aware that Trump has had multiple lawsuits claiming assault and/or sexual harassment beginning more than 20 years ago?
So as long as multiple people accuse you, it suddenly means it's somehow more valid?

Are you claiming that there has been a pattern of people working together for the last 28 years in an attempt to falsely discredit Donald Trump?

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3039 on: April 20, 2017, 08:25:04 PM »


Quote
I wouldn't go so far as to call Trump a rapist, but his sexual improprieties have been extensively documented, not just by the lewd comments on the 'hot-mic' Hollywood Access video, but on air with Howard Stern, covered in the tabloids during his last two divorces, and on the set of The Apprentice.
So why dispute the point if you're not calling him a rapist? Many ARE calling him a rapist and predator, when he's not.


The point is that he's setting a terrible role model.   Now everyone sees that it's ok to sexually harass women because you can do this and still be the POTUS.
Trump didn't sexually harass anyone. He made a comment about golddiggers.

Oh that's a relief that you know that, I thought all these women claimed he harassed them.
Anyone can make a claim. Where's the evident? Guess that whole innocent until proven guilty thing doesn't apply to Trump?

Innocent until proven guilty applies to the justice system, not to public opinion. You yourself have specifically claimed that "Trump didn't sexually harass anyone."  That is highly suspect.

http://www.npr.org/2016/10/13/497799354/a-list-of-donald-trumps-accusers-of-inappropriate-sexual-conduct
Again, accusations don't mean anything at all. Obviously courts don't deal with public opinion, but saying or even implying someone is a sexual predator with ZERO evidence is ridiculous.

What if I and four others accuse you of sexual harassment right now? Would it be okay for all of America to then  hold that over your head?

It's just pretty ridiculous to use accusations as a point against Trump. Accusations are not proof.

It is equally ridiculous to dismiss a pattern of accusations because the alleged offender denies them. Are you aware that Trump has had multiple lawsuits claiming assault and/or sexual harassment beginning more than 20 years ago?
So as long as multiple people accuse you, it suddenly means it's somehow more valid?

Are you claiming that there has been a pattern of people working together for the last 28 years in an attempt to falsely discredit Donald Trump?
No, I'm saying that regardless of how many accusers there are, he hasn't been found guilty of anything. So holding it over his head is ridiculous at best.

JLee

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3040 on: April 20, 2017, 08:26:01 PM »


Quote
I wouldn't go so far as to call Trump a rapist, but his sexual improprieties have been extensively documented, not just by the lewd comments on the 'hot-mic' Hollywood Access video, but on air with Howard Stern, covered in the tabloids during his last two divorces, and on the set of The Apprentice.
So why dispute the point if you're not calling him a rapist? Many ARE calling him a rapist and predator, when he's not.


The point is that he's setting a terrible role model.   Now everyone sees that it's ok to sexually harass women because you can do this and still be the POTUS.
Trump didn't sexually harass anyone. He made a comment about golddiggers.

Oh that's a relief that you know that, I thought all these women claimed he harassed them.
Anyone can make a claim. Where's the evident? Guess that whole innocent until proven guilty thing doesn't apply to Trump?

Innocent until proven guilty applies to the justice system, not to public opinion. You yourself have specifically claimed that "Trump didn't sexually harass anyone."  That is highly suspect.

http://www.npr.org/2016/10/13/497799354/a-list-of-donald-trumps-accusers-of-inappropriate-sexual-conduct
Again, accusations don't mean anything at all. Obviously courts don't deal with public opinion, but saying or even implying someone is a sexual predator with ZERO evidence is ridiculous.

What if I and four others accuse you of sexual harassment right now? Would it be okay for all of America to then  hold that over your head?

It's just pretty ridiculous to use accusations as a point against Trump. Accusations are not proof.

It is equally ridiculous to dismiss a pattern of accusations because the alleged offender denies them. Are you aware that Trump has had multiple lawsuits claiming assault and/or sexual harassment beginning more than 20 years ago?
So as long as multiple people accuse you, it suddenly means it's somehow more valid?

Are you claiming that there has been a pattern of people working together for the last 28 years in an attempt to falsely discredit Donald Trump?
No, I'm saying that regardless of how many accusers there are, he hasn't been found guilty of anything. So holding it over his head is ridiculous at best.

He hasn't been criminally charged, so it's impossible for him to have been found guilty OR INNOCENT.

Wrap your head around that one.

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3041 on: April 20, 2017, 08:28:30 PM »


Quote
I wouldn't go so far as to call Trump a rapist, but his sexual improprieties have been extensively documented, not just by the lewd comments on the 'hot-mic' Hollywood Access video, but on air with Howard Stern, covered in the tabloids during his last two divorces, and on the set of The Apprentice.
So why dispute the point if you're not calling him a rapist? Many ARE calling him a rapist and predator, when he's not.


The point is that he's setting a terrible role model.   Now everyone sees that it's ok to sexually harass women because you can do this and still be the POTUS.
Trump didn't sexually harass anyone. He made a comment about golddiggers.

Oh that's a relief that you know that, I thought all these women claimed he harassed them.
Anyone can make a claim. Where's the evident? Guess that whole innocent until proven guilty thing doesn't apply to Trump?

Innocent until proven guilty applies to the justice system, not to public opinion. You yourself have specifically claimed that "Trump didn't sexually harass anyone."  That is highly suspect.

http://www.npr.org/2016/10/13/497799354/a-list-of-donald-trumps-accusers-of-inappropriate-sexual-conduct
Again, accusations don't mean anything at all. Obviously courts don't deal with public opinion, but saying or even implying someone is a sexual predator with ZERO evidence is ridiculous.

What if I and four others accuse you of sexual harassment right now? Would it be okay for all of America to then  hold that over your head?

It's just pretty ridiculous to use accusations as a point against Trump. Accusations are not proof.

It is equally ridiculous to dismiss a pattern of accusations because the alleged offender denies them. Are you aware that Trump has had multiple lawsuits claiming assault and/or sexual harassment beginning more than 20 years ago?
So as long as multiple people accuse you, it suddenly means it's somehow more valid?

Are you claiming that there has been a pattern of people working together for the last 28 years in an attempt to falsely discredit Donald Trump?
No, I'm saying that regardless of how many accusers there are, he hasn't been found guilty of anything. So holding it over his head is ridiculous at best.

He hasn't been criminally charged, so it's impossible for him to have been found guilty OR INNOCENT.

Wrap your head around that one.
I'm not even sure what to say about that. Are you kidding me? Again, innocent until proven guilty. You sexually assaulted me. You haven't been found innocent yet, therefore you're guilty.

JLee

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3042 on: April 20, 2017, 08:31:44 PM »


Quote
I wouldn't go so far as to call Trump a rapist, but his sexual improprieties have been extensively documented, not just by the lewd comments on the 'hot-mic' Hollywood Access video, but on air with Howard Stern, covered in the tabloids during his last two divorces, and on the set of The Apprentice.
So why dispute the point if you're not calling him a rapist? Many ARE calling him a rapist and predator, when he's not.


The point is that he's setting a terrible role model.   Now everyone sees that it's ok to sexually harass women because you can do this and still be the POTUS.
Trump didn't sexually harass anyone. He made a comment about golddiggers.

Oh that's a relief that you know that, I thought all these women claimed he harassed them.
Anyone can make a claim. Where's the evident? Guess that whole innocent until proven guilty thing doesn't apply to Trump?

Innocent until proven guilty applies to the justice system, not to public opinion. You yourself have specifically claimed that "Trump didn't sexually harass anyone."  That is highly suspect.

http://www.npr.org/2016/10/13/497799354/a-list-of-donald-trumps-accusers-of-inappropriate-sexual-conduct
Again, accusations don't mean anything at all. Obviously courts don't deal with public opinion, but saying or even implying someone is a sexual predator with ZERO evidence is ridiculous.

What if I and four others accuse you of sexual harassment right now? Would it be okay for all of America to then  hold that over your head?

It's just pretty ridiculous to use accusations as a point against Trump. Accusations are not proof.

It is equally ridiculous to dismiss a pattern of accusations because the alleged offender denies them. Are you aware that Trump has had multiple lawsuits claiming assault and/or sexual harassment beginning more than 20 years ago?
So as long as multiple people accuse you, it suddenly means it's somehow more valid?

Are you claiming that there has been a pattern of people working together for the last 28 years in an attempt to falsely discredit Donald Trump?
No, I'm saying that regardless of how many accusers there are, he hasn't been found guilty of anything. So holding it over his head is ridiculous at best.

He hasn't been criminally charged, so it's impossible for him to have been found guilty OR INNOCENT.

Wrap your head around that one.
I'm not even sure what to say about that. Are you kidding me? Again, innocent until proven guilty. You sexually assaulted me. You haven't been found innocent yet, therefore you're guilty.

I already explained how the presumption of innocence works in a criminal trial.  This does not mean that someone IS innocent.  Look it up.

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3043 on: April 20, 2017, 08:35:11 PM »


Quote
I wouldn't go so far as to call Trump a rapist, but his sexual improprieties have been extensively documented, not just by the lewd comments on the 'hot-mic' Hollywood Access video, but on air with Howard Stern, covered in the tabloids during his last two divorces, and on the set of The Apprentice.
So why dispute the point if you're not calling him a rapist? Many ARE calling him a rapist and predator, when he's not.


The point is that he's setting a terrible role model.   Now everyone sees that it's ok to sexually harass women because you can do this and still be the POTUS.
Trump didn't sexually harass anyone. He made a comment about golddiggers.

Oh that's a relief that you know that, I thought all these women claimed he harassed them.
Anyone can make a claim. Where's the evident? Guess that whole innocent until proven guilty thing doesn't apply to Trump?

Innocent until proven guilty applies to the justice system, not to public opinion. You yourself have specifically claimed that "Trump didn't sexually harass anyone."  That is highly suspect.

http://www.npr.org/2016/10/13/497799354/a-list-of-donald-trumps-accusers-of-inappropriate-sexual-conduct
Again, accusations don't mean anything at all. Obviously courts don't deal with public opinion, but saying or even implying someone is a sexual predator with ZERO evidence is ridiculous.

What if I and four others accuse you of sexual harassment right now? Would it be okay for all of America to then  hold that over your head?

It's just pretty ridiculous to use accusations as a point against Trump. Accusations are not proof.

It is equally ridiculous to dismiss a pattern of accusations because the alleged offender denies them. Are you aware that Trump has had multiple lawsuits claiming assault and/or sexual harassment beginning more than 20 years ago?
So as long as multiple people accuse you, it suddenly means it's somehow more valid?

Are you claiming that there has been a pattern of people working together for the last 28 years in an attempt to falsely discredit Donald Trump?
No, I'm saying that regardless of how many accusers there are, he hasn't been found guilty of anything. So holding it over his head is ridiculous at best.

He hasn't been criminally charged, so it's impossible for him to have been found guilty OR INNOCENT.

Wrap your head around that one.
I'm not even sure what to say about that. Are you kidding me? Again, innocent until proven guilty. You sexually assaulted me. You haven't been found innocent yet, therefore you're guilty.

I already explained how the presumption of innocence works in a criminal trial.  This does not mean that someone IS innocent.  Look it up.
Well duh. No one said it was proven he was innocent. But holding against him unsubstantiated claims is stupid. Much like how it's stupid to bring up the Clinton accusations.

JLee

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3044 on: April 20, 2017, 08:38:41 PM »


Quote
I wouldn't go so far as to call Trump a rapist, but his sexual improprieties have been extensively documented, not just by the lewd comments on the 'hot-mic' Hollywood Access video, but on air with Howard Stern, covered in the tabloids during his last two divorces, and on the set of The Apprentice.
So why dispute the point if you're not calling him a rapist? Many ARE calling him a rapist and predator, when he's not.


The point is that he's setting a terrible role model.   Now everyone sees that it's ok to sexually harass women because you can do this and still be the POTUS.
Trump didn't sexually harass anyone. He made a comment about golddiggers.

Oh that's a relief that you know that, I thought all these women claimed he harassed them.
Anyone can make a claim. Where's the evident? Guess that whole innocent until proven guilty thing doesn't apply to Trump?

Innocent until proven guilty applies to the justice system, not to public opinion. You yourself have specifically claimed that "Trump didn't sexually harass anyone."  That is highly suspect.

http://www.npr.org/2016/10/13/497799354/a-list-of-donald-trumps-accusers-of-inappropriate-sexual-conduct
Again, accusations don't mean anything at all. Obviously courts don't deal with public opinion, but saying or even implying someone is a sexual predator with ZERO evidence is ridiculous.

What if I and four others accuse you of sexual harassment right now? Would it be okay for all of America to then  hold that over your head?

It's just pretty ridiculous to use accusations as a point against Trump. Accusations are not proof.

It is equally ridiculous to dismiss a pattern of accusations because the alleged offender denies them. Are you aware that Trump has had multiple lawsuits claiming assault and/or sexual harassment beginning more than 20 years ago?
So as long as multiple people accuse you, it suddenly means it's somehow more valid?

Are you claiming that there has been a pattern of people working together for the last 28 years in an attempt to falsely discredit Donald Trump?
No, I'm saying that regardless of how many accusers there are, he hasn't been found guilty of anything. So holding it over his head is ridiculous at best.

He hasn't been criminally charged, so it's impossible for him to have been found guilty OR INNOCENT.

Wrap your head around that one.
I'm not even sure what to say about that. Are you kidding me? Again, innocent until proven guilty. You sexually assaulted me. You haven't been found innocent yet, therefore you're guilty.

I already explained how the presumption of innocence works in a criminal trial.  This does not mean that someone IS innocent.  Look it up.
Well duh. No one said it was proven he was innocent. But holding against him unsubstantiated claims is stupid. Much like how it's stupid to bring up the Clinton accusations.
...
Quote from: MrMonkeyMoustache
Trump didn't sexually harass anyone.

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3045 on: April 20, 2017, 08:44:54 PM »


Quote
I wouldn't go so far as to call Trump a rapist, but his sexual improprieties have been extensively documented, not just by the lewd comments on the 'hot-mic' Hollywood Access video, but on air with Howard Stern, covered in the tabloids during his last two divorces, and on the set of The Apprentice.
So why dispute the point if you're not calling him a rapist? Many ARE calling him a rapist and predator, when he's not.


The point is that he's setting a terrible role model.   Now everyone sees that it's ok to sexually harass women because you can do this and still be the POTUS.
Trump didn't sexually harass anyone. He made a comment about golddiggers.

Oh that's a relief that you know that, I thought all these women claimed he harassed them.
Anyone can make a claim. Where's the evident? Guess that whole innocent until proven guilty thing doesn't apply to Trump?

Innocent until proven guilty applies to the justice system, not to public opinion. You yourself have specifically claimed that "Trump didn't sexually harass anyone."  That is highly suspect.

http://www.npr.org/2016/10/13/497799354/a-list-of-donald-trumps-accusers-of-inappropriate-sexual-conduct
Again, accusations don't mean anything at all. Obviously courts don't deal with public opinion, but saying or even implying someone is a sexual predator with ZERO evidence is ridiculous.

What if I and four others accuse you of sexual harassment right now? Would it be okay for all of America to then  hold that over your head?

It's just pretty ridiculous to use accusations as a point against Trump. Accusations are not proof.

It is equally ridiculous to dismiss a pattern of accusations because the alleged offender denies them. Are you aware that Trump has had multiple lawsuits claiming assault and/or sexual harassment beginning more than 20 years ago?
So as long as multiple people accuse you, it suddenly means it's somehow more valid?

Are you claiming that there has been a pattern of people working together for the last 28 years in an attempt to falsely discredit Donald Trump?
No, I'm saying that regardless of how many accusers there are, he hasn't been found guilty of anything. So holding it over his head is ridiculous at best.

He hasn't been criminally charged, so it's impossible for him to have been found guilty OR INNOCENT.

Wrap your head around that one.
I'm not even sure what to say about that. Are you kidding me? Again, innocent until proven guilty. You sexually assaulted me. You haven't been found innocent yet, therefore you're guilty.

I already explained how the presumption of innocence works in a criminal trial.  This does not mean that someone IS innocent.  Look it up.
Well duh. No one said it was proven he was innocent. But holding against him unsubstantiated claims is stupid. Much like how it's stupid to bring up the Clinton accusations.
...
Quote from: MrMonkeyMoustache
Trump didn't sexually harass anyone.
[bquote] I never said it was proven that he was innocent, but generally, people are considered innocent until proven otherwise. So as of now, he should be considered innocent. Obviously not proven, but it doesn't need to be.

JLee

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3046 on: April 20, 2017, 08:45:51 PM »
You're claiming that your words mean something other than what they specifically say.

This explains a lot - thanks for the clarification!

MrMonkeyMoustache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3047 on: April 20, 2017, 08:59:19 PM »
You're claiming that your words mean something other than what they specifically say.

This explains a lot - thanks for the clarification!
Or, I realize that it's literally impossible to prove a negative. You know that, right?

former player

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3048 on: April 21, 2017, 01:33:41 AM »
You're claiming that your words mean something other than what they specifically say.

This explains a lot - thanks for the clarification!
Or, I realize that it's literally impossible to prove a negative. You know that, right?
Oh please, scientists and courts of law prove negatives all the time.
Be frugal and industrious, and you will be free (Ben Franklin)

MasterStache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #3049 on: April 21, 2017, 05:33:09 AM »
You're claiming that your words mean something other than what they specifically say.

This explains a lot - thanks for the clarification!
Or, I realize that it's literally impossible to prove a negative. You know that, right?

Of course it's not impossible. You sentence itself is a negative and thus, by your own logic, not provable.

You are doing a fantastic job trolling.