Author Topic: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?  (Read 194019 times)

nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #900 on: January 09, 2017, 10:22:14 AM »
More "realistic impacts of a Trump presidency":

The federal week in review:
1. Trump fires all Ambassadors and Special Envoys, ordering them out by inauguration day.
2. House brings back the Holman rule allowing them to reduce an individual civil service, SES positions, or political appointee's salary to $1, effectively firing them by amendment to any piece of legislation. We now know why they wanted names and positions of people in Energy and State.
3. Senate schedules 6 simultaneous hearings on cabinet nominees and triple-books those hearings with Trump's first press conference in months and an ACA budget vote, effectively preventing any concentrated coverage or protest.
4. House GOP expressly forbids the Congressional Budget Office from reporting or tracking ANY costs related to the repeal of the ACA.
5. Trump continues to throw the intelligence community under the bus to protect Putin, despite the growing mountain of evidence that the Russians deliberately interfered in our election.
6. Trump breaks a central campaign promise to make Mexico pay for the wall by asking Congress (in other words, us, the taxpayers) to pay for it.
7. Trump threatens Toyota over a new plant that was never coming to the US nor will take jobs out of the US.
8. House passes the REINS act, giving them veto power over any rules enacted by any federal agency or department--for example, FDA or EPA bans a drug or pesticide, Congress can overrule based on lobbyists not science. Don't like that endangered species designation, Congress kills it.

Bill introduced by Todd Rokita (R) of Indiana that removes all civil service protections from future new hires. (different than Holman rule)  Including but not limited to
•Eliminate an employee’s right to representation at the worksite by no longer allowing union representatives to resolve disputes, address issues of discrimination or retaliation, or propose improvements in the workplace during the workday.
•Allow political appointees to demote career executives and reduce their pay without cause.

so political appointees can clear house of all the people who know what they are doing over ideological differences.

It seems clear that the president elect is "cleaning house" and removing as many people that do not share his views as possible.  This isn't particularly surprising to me, but the anticipated outcome will be that policy will drive theory, and not the other way around.
Companies that do this quickly find themselves at a disadvantage. I fear so shall we...
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nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #902 on: January 09, 2017, 11:33:06 AM »
More "realistic impacts of a Trump presidency":


The federal week in review:
9. http://www.npr.org/2017/01/03/508075313/ford-scraps-plans-for-mexico-plant-in-surprise-move
10. http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/08/fiat-to-invest-1-billion-in-new-michigan-ohio-plants-create-2000-jobs.html
11. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/alibaba-ceo-jack-ma-meets-164900109.html

You forgot some....

yeah, from the articles you linked:
Quote
Well, the main reason that we're canceling our $1.6 billion new plant in Mexico is essentially because we've seen market demand here in North America for small cars drop off pretty significantly.
Quote
The announcement, in what the company said was the second phase of a plan it first made public a year ago

Seems all of this was already in motion and unrelated to Trump. Suppose we ought to credit Obama for these, if anyone.
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

GuitarStv

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #903 on: January 09, 2017, 11:40:55 AM »
More "realistic impacts of a Trump presidency":


The federal week in review:
9. http://www.npr.org/2017/01/03/508075313/ford-scraps-plans-for-mexico-plant-in-surprise-move
10. http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/08/fiat-to-invest-1-billion-in-new-michigan-ohio-plants-create-2000-jobs.html
11. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/alibaba-ceo-jack-ma-meets-164900109.html

You forgot some....

yeah, from the articles you linked:
Quote
Well, the main reason that we're canceling our $1.6 billion new plant in Mexico is essentially because we've seen market demand here in North America for small cars drop off pretty significantly.
Quote
The announcement, in what the company said was the second phase of a plan it first made public a year ago

Seems all of this was already in motion and unrelated to Trump. Suppose we ought to credit Obama for these, if anyone.

Thanks Obama!

NoStacheOhio

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #904 on: January 09, 2017, 11:42:48 AM »

10. http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/08/fiat-to-invest-1-billion-in-new-michigan-ohio-plants-create-2000-jobs.html

You forgot some....

I'd just like to call out the fact that they're laying out $1,000,000,000 in capital, and it's going to generate 2,000 jobs. We need to stop acting like it's 1951. I'm sure those are going to be 2,000 solid jobs with good pay and benefits, but they're going to require specialists, not grunts.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/digging-out-of-a-hole/

nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #905 on: January 09, 2017, 11:48:46 AM »
breaking news:  Jared Kushner officially named as 'special advisor' to Trump.

So:  the husband of one of the children put in charge of the family business is now officially a special advisor to the president?
This further entrenches the conflict of interest.
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

ncornilsen

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #906 on: January 09, 2017, 11:57:37 AM »
More "realistic impacts of a Trump presidency":

The federal week in review:
1. Trump fires all Ambassadors and Special Envoys, ordering them out by inauguration day.
2. House brings back the Holman rule allowing them to reduce an individual civil service, SES positions, or political appointee's salary to $1, effectively firing them by amendment to any piece of legislation. We now know why they wanted names and positions of people in Energy and State.
3. Senate schedules 6 simultaneous hearings on cabinet nominees and triple-books those hearings with Trump's first press conference in months and an ACA budget vote, effectively preventing any concentrated coverage or protest.
4. House GOP expressly forbids the Congressional Budget Office from reporting or tracking ANY costs related to the repeal of the ACA.
5. Trump continues to throw the intelligence community under the bus to protect Putin, despite the growing mountain of evidence that the Russians deliberately interfered in our election.
6. Trump breaks a central campaign promise to make Mexico pay for the wall by asking Congress (in other words, us, the taxpayers) to pay for it.
7. Trump threatens Toyota over a new plant that was never coming to the US nor will take jobs out of the US.
8. House passes the REINS act, giving them veto power over any rules enacted by any federal agency or department--for example, FDA or EPA bans a drug or pesticide, Congress can overrule based on lobbyists not science. Don't like that endangered species designation, Congress kills it.

Bill introduced by Todd Rokita (R) of Indiana that removes all civil service protections from future new hires. (different than Holman rule)  Including but not limited to
•Eliminate an employee’s right to representation at the worksite by no longer allowing union representatives to resolve disputes, address issues of discrimination or retaliation, or propose improvements in the workplace during the workday.
•Allow political appointees to demote career executives and reduce their pay without cause.

so political appointees can clear house of all the people who know what they are doing over ideological differences.

I'm actually OK with this. Public employee unions need to be gutted and reformed heavily. whether or not Ford would be changing their plans based on Trump's bluster or not, at least these things are part of the national conversation again, instead of being ignored and openly disdained by the alternative administration.

The rest of what trump has done this week does not sit well with me... especially the double booking of confirmation hearings and bringing back the Holloman rule and the REINS act.

Does anyone else see the irony that we're upset that Russia hacked into the DNC (exposing their very real shadiness)... the main source of new evidence being US hacking into the Russians and leaking their internal communications? There's some nuance to that comparison but I thought it was humorous.

wienerdog

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #907 on: January 09, 2017, 02:03:34 PM »
More "realistic impacts of a Trump presidency":


The federal week in review:
9. http://www.npr.org/2017/01/03/508075313/ford-scraps-plans-for-mexico-plant-in-surprise-move
10. http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/08/fiat-to-invest-1-billion-in-new-michigan-ohio-plants-create-2000-jobs.html
11. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/alibaba-ceo-jack-ma-meets-164900109.html

You forgot some....

yeah, from the articles you linked:
Quote
Well, the main reason that we're canceling our $1.6 billion new plant in Mexico is essentially because we've seen market demand here in North America for small cars drop off pretty significantly.
Quote
The announcement, in what the company said was the second phase of a plan it first made public a year ago

Seems all of this was already in motion and unrelated to Trump. Suppose we ought to credit Obama for these, if anyone.

Thanks Obama!

Wait I thought Bush was taking the blame on everything for Obama?  So confused

nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #908 on: January 09, 2017, 02:19:14 PM »

Wait I thought Bush was taking the blame on everything for Obama?  So confused

Bush gets blamed (or gets credit) for most everything that took place in Obama's first ~6 months in office that Obama didn't directly pass.  After that responsibility shifts towards the new guy until he's completely accountable after 2 years.
Example:  Obama can't be held responsible for the great recession, but he and the 111th-113th congresses own the recovery (both that they happened and that they took so long).
Same goes for Trump.

Common sense really - you can't take credit or blame for things your first week in office, nor can you blame everything on your predecessor after you've been there for a few years.
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

Lagom

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #909 on: January 09, 2017, 02:20:32 PM »
More "realistic impacts of a Trump presidency":


The federal week in review:
9. http://www.npr.org/2017/01/03/508075313/ford-scraps-plans-for-mexico-plant-in-surprise-move
10. http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/08/fiat-to-invest-1-billion-in-new-michigan-ohio-plants-create-2000-jobs.html
11. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/alibaba-ceo-jack-ma-meets-164900109.html

You forgot some....

yeah, from the articles you linked:
Quote
Well, the main reason that we're canceling our $1.6 billion new plant in Mexico is essentially because we've seen market demand here in North America for small cars drop off pretty significantly.
Quote
The announcement, in what the company said was the second phase of a plan it first made public a year ago

Seems all of this was already in motion and unrelated to Trump. Suppose we ought to credit Obama for these, if anyone.

Thanks Obama!

Wait I thought Bush was taking the blame on everything for Obama?  So confused

Thanks Bush!

nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #910 on: January 09, 2017, 02:23:44 PM »
More "realistic impacts of a Trump presidency":


The federal week in review:
9. http://www.npr.org/2017/01/03/508075313/ford-scraps-plans-for-mexico-plant-in-surprise-move
10. http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/08/fiat-to-invest-1-billion-in-new-michigan-ohio-plants-create-2000-jobs.html
11. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/alibaba-ceo-jack-ma-meets-164900109.html

You forgot some....

yeah, from the articles you linked:
Quote
Well, the main reason that we're canceling our $1.6 billion new plant in Mexico is essentially because we've seen market demand here in North America for small cars drop off pretty significantly.
Quote
The announcement, in what the company said was the second phase of a plan it first made public a year ago

Seems all of this was already in motion and unrelated to Trump. Suppose we ought to credit Obama for these, if anyone.

Thanks Obama!

Wait I thought Bush was taking the blame on everything for Obama?  So confused

Thanks Bush!

Thanks Washington!
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

former player

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #911 on: January 09, 2017, 02:33:36 PM »
From a UK point of view, one of the astonishing things about USA politics is that no-one seems to agree on the facts.  In the UK, we generally agree on the facts and then the dispute is about the interpretation and what action to take.  If you can't even agree on the facts, there is no hope for a rational discussion.  But in the US there also seems to be no interest in facts, or a deliberate omission of the facts, or a distorted presentation of the facts, which is the start of a death spiral for democracy.
Did you miss brexit?
"People have had quite enough of experts"
"75 Million Turks are about to come to the UK once Turkey joins the EU"
"350 Million for the NHS per week"
An agriculture minister who thinks farming has been around as long as humans have.
...
Regrettably the UK is fully on board the post truth politics train
Yes, thank Trump's best buddy Farage for a lot of that.  Reality seems to be setting in a bit now, though.
Be frugal and industrious, and you will be free (Ben Franklin)

RangerOne

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #912 on: January 09, 2017, 05:39:14 PM »
More "realistic impacts of a Trump presidency":


The federal week in review:
9. http://www.npr.org/2017/01/03/508075313/ford-scraps-plans-for-mexico-plant-in-surprise-move
10. http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/08/fiat-to-invest-1-billion-in-new-michigan-ohio-plants-create-2000-jobs.html
11. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/alibaba-ceo-jack-ma-meets-164900109.html

You forgot some....

yeah, from the articles you linked:
Quote
Well, the main reason that we're canceling our $1.6 billion new plant in Mexico is essentially because we've seen market demand here in North America for small cars drop off pretty significantly.
Quote
The announcement, in what the company said was the second phase of a plan it first made public a year ago

Seems all of this was already in motion and unrelated to Trump. Suppose we ought to credit Obama for these, if anyone.

Thanks Obama!

Wait I thought Bush was taking the blame on everything for Obama?  So confused

It is incredibly difficult and debate even among very experienced and talented economist to determine the exact administration which is at fault for a given financial crises.

At any given point the current economic climate could easily be a result of a combination of rules and regulations spanning many presidencies much further back than Obama and Bush.

Unless anyone on this form is masquerading as a normal poster and are really Mark Blyth or Milton Friedman(risen from the dead) in disguise, or some other notable economist, I doubt any of us could have a truly fair and informed in-depth discussion about who is to blame or congratulate on the great recession and our continuing recovery.

Politicians are certainly offering zero clarity on either side, only presenting simple metrics with spin. Suffice it to say the current state of things would seem to indicate that the US has had the best recovery of any developed nation. Whether that recovery is fast enough, good enough or equally felt by all Americans is another story.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2017, 05:49:50 PM by RangerOne »

RangerOne

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #913 on: January 09, 2017, 05:49:22 PM »
I say at least one major problem along the lines being discussed is not necessarily that expert opinion is no longer valid but rather that the rise of equal access to the public ear via the internet has lead to the bar for qualifying yourself as an expert on a subject to drop to zero.

Or rather you can be considered an expert simply based on the size of your following. Your legitimacy on the internet as a spokes person on any subject has less to do with science and education or more to do with how many people are willing to listen to you and believe you.

In some ways this level of information sharing has been an amazing thing. In others, looking at this recent election, it has been a complete and tragic failure for all of us.

All the major social media sites are grappling with these issues right now. How do we evolve the internet beyond the wild west of information that it currently is. How do we do it without giving up the current freedoms that we value on it? Regulation of the internet and its major contributors is going to be a huge issue probably for the remainder of most of our lifetimes. And ultimately the gatekeepers who will craft that future are the social media sites and search engines like google and telecom providers that control bandwidth and accessibility.

sol

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #914 on: January 09, 2017, 06:07:58 PM »
It is incredibly difficult and debate even among very experienced and talented economist to determine the exact administration which is at fault for a given financial crises.

Agreed.  Lots of people blame Bill Clinton for the 2008/9 crash, for example, because he signed off on Congress's repeal of the Glass-Steagal Act in 1999, helping to deregulate banks so they could play on Wall Street. 

nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #915 on: January 09, 2017, 06:19:02 PM »
It is incredibly difficult and debate even among very experienced and talented economist to determine the exact administration which is at fault for a given financial crises.

Agreed.  Lots of people blame Bill Clinton for the 2008/9 crash, for example, because he signed off on Congress's repeal of the Glass-Steagal Act in 1999, helping to deregulate banks so they could play on Wall Street.

My broader point (which I think is being missed) is that it's ridiculous to blame someone who just took office for any given financial crisis, or give them immediate credit for 'good things'.

Certainly after they've settled in for a while it becomes much harder to distinguish which administration truly set up the circumstances for the current crisis.   Regarding blaming Clinton for the '08 crash, there's some validity there, but one must also acknolwedege that the subsequent 8 years congress and Bush had ample opportunities to increase regulation but didn't.
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

FXF

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #916 on: January 09, 2017, 06:47:25 PM »
From a UK point of view, one of the astonishing things about USA politics is that no-one seems to agree on the facts.  In the UK, we generally agree on the facts and then the dispute is about the interpretation and what action to take.  If you can't even agree on the facts, there is no hope for a rational discussion.  But in the US there also seems to be no interest in facts, or a deliberate omission of the facts, or a distorted presentation of the facts, which is the start of a death spiral for democracy.
Did you miss brexit?
"People have had quite enough of experts"
"75 Million Turks are about to come to the UK once Turkey joins the EU"
"350 Million for the NHS per week"
An agriculture minister who thinks farming has been around as long as humans have.
...
Regrettably the UK is fully on board the post truth politics train
Yes, thank Trump's best buddy Farage for a lot of that.  Reality seems to be setting in a bit now, though.
Oh I am convinced, May, Davis, Johnson and co. have a few more tricks up their sleeves. Don't lean back just yet...
Brexit is going to be quite the shit show.

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #917 on: January 09, 2017, 09:56:26 PM »
More "realistic impacts of a Trump presidency":


The federal week in review:
9. http://www.npr.org/2017/01/03/508075313/ford-scraps-plans-for-mexico-plant-in-surprise-move
10. http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/08/fiat-to-invest-1-billion-in-new-michigan-ohio-plants-create-2000-jobs.html
11. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/alibaba-ceo-jack-ma-meets-164900109.html

You forgot some....

yeah, from the articles you linked:
Quote
Well, the main reason that we're canceling our $1.6 billion new plant in Mexico is essentially because we've seen market demand here in North America for small cars drop off pretty significantly.
Quote
The announcement, in what the company said was the second phase of a plan it first made public a year ago

Seems all of this was already in motion and unrelated to Trump. Suppose we ought to credit Obama for these, if anyone.

Thanks Obama!

Meh. Terrible for the planet. I suppose he could use the win though.
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #918 on: January 09, 2017, 10:00:30 PM »
It is incredibly difficult and debate even among very experienced and talented economist to determine the exact administration which is at fault for a given financial crises.

Agreed.  Lots of people blame Bill Clinton for the 2008/9 crash, for example, because he signed off on Congress's repeal of the Glass-Steagal Act in 1999, helping to deregulate banks so they could play on Wall Street.

My broader point (which I think is being missed) is that it's ridiculous to blame someone who just took office for any given financial crisis, or give them immediate credit for 'good things'.

Certainly after they've settled in for a while it becomes much harder to distinguish which administration truly set up the circumstances for the current crisis.   Regarding blaming Clinton for the '08 crash, there's some validity there, but one must also acknolwedege that the subsequent 8 years congress and Bush had ample opportunities to increase regulation but didn't.

Good point. And even if one can pin blame to a specific administration, there's the point that the president didn't propose or affect the bills/budgets; they merely passed what congress came up with.

And its a stretch to suggest that the Bush administration should have tightened regulations to avoid a problem that, while clearly likely in retrospect, was only actually foreseen by a handful of people in the world before it occurred.
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #919 on: January 09, 2017, 10:17:15 PM »
With the current state of just ignoring public opinion (Tweeting "Trump reality"(TM) and having the world revolve around whether Meryl Streep is overrated) coupled with a disorienting confirmation process and Kellyanne Conway rolling out the idea that Russian sanctions will be rolled back in 11 days, it's no wonder deep, introspective politics has come to a standstill.  Never mind that Jared Kushner slipped in as a Senior White House Advisor.

Quote
While not mentioning that he is his son-in-law, Trump described Kushner as "a widely respected businessman and real estate developer was instrumental in formulating and executing the strategy behind President-elect Trump's historic victory in November."

Calling the appointment an "honor," Kushner said in a statement he is "energized by the shared passion of the President-elect and the American people."

Who are these American people???  And why will anyone expect politicians to do the hard work of long term strategy when the Trump war is being won on a tactical, day-to-day immediate gratification way?  Defecit spending - Trump's gain, someone else's pain.  Healthcare - disaster, just need to repeal ACA and 'the people' will think we are on their side.  Taxes, need to be cut. 

It's really easy to run the US, as long as you have no historical baggage nor accountability to the future of the citizens.  And you even get 4 years to make some money in the process, just in case things don't work out.  Trump Tower is suddenly the most valuable real estate on the planet, what a great example of selflessness on behalf of our not-yet-even-leader of this free country.  I mean, the White House is not just going to be Trump's vacation home, right?
Transitioning to FIRE'd albeit somewhat cautiously...

radram

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #920 on: January 10, 2017, 05:51:20 AM »
I say at least one major problem along the lines being discussed is not necessarily that expert opinion is no longer valid but rather that the rise of equal access to the public ear via the internet has lead to the bar for qualifying yourself as an expert on a subject to drop to zero.

Or rather you can be considered an expert simply based on the size of your following. Your legitimacy on the internet as a spokes person on any subject has less to do with science and education or more to do with how many people are willing to listen to you and believe you.

In some ways this level of information sharing has been an amazing thing. In others, looking at this recent election, it has been a complete and tragic failure for all of us.

All the major social media sites are grappling with these issues right now. How do we evolve the internet beyond the wild west of information that it currently is. How do we do it without giving up the current freedoms that we value on it? Regulation of the internet and its major contributors is going to be a huge issue probably for the remainder of most of our lifetimes. And ultimately the gatekeepers who will craft that future are the social media sites and search engines like google and telecom providers that control bandwidth and accessibility.

Agreed. This is the reason I am in support of net neutrality. It is also be the exact same reason someone with the ability to gain control would be for it. Is there another reason why someone would be against it?

FXF

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #921 on: January 10, 2017, 07:38:32 AM »
With the current state of just ignoring public opinion (Tweeting "Trump reality"(TM) and having the world revolve around whether Meryl Streep is overrated) coupled with a disorienting confirmation process and Kellyanne Conway rolling out the idea that Russian sanctions will be rolled back in 11 days, it's no wonder deep, introspective politics has come to a standstill.  Never mind that Jared Kushner slipped in as a Senior White House Advisor.

Quote
While not mentioning that he is his son-in-law, Trump described Kushner as "a widely respected businessman and real estate developer was instrumental in formulating and executing the strategy behind President-elect Trump's historic victory in November."

Calling the appointment an "honor," Kushner said in a statement he is "energized by the shared passion of the President-elect and the American people."

Who are these American people???  And why will anyone expect politicians to do the hard work of long term strategy when the Trump war is being won on a tactical, day-to-day immediate gratification way?  Defecit spending - Trump's gain, someone else's pain.  Healthcare - disaster, just need to repeal ACA and 'the people' will think we are on their side.  Taxes, need to be cut. 

It's really easy to run the US, as long as you have no historical baggage nor accountability to the future of the citizens.  And you even get 4 years to make some money in the process, just in case things don't work out.  Trump Tower is suddenly the most valuable real estate on the planet, what a great example of selflessness on behalf of our not-yet-even-leader of this free country.  I mean, the White House is not just going to be Trump's vacation home, right?
But they are only getting rid of Obamacare not the ACA.

deadlymonkey

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #922 on: January 10, 2017, 07:52:01 AM »
With the current state of just ignoring public opinion (Tweeting "Trump reality"(TM) and having the world revolve around whether Meryl Streep is overrated) coupled with a disorienting confirmation process and Kellyanne Conway rolling out the idea that Russian sanctions will be rolled back in 11 days, it's no wonder deep, introspective politics has come to a standstill.  Never mind that Jared Kushner slipped in as a Senior White House Advisor.

Quote
While not mentioning that he is his son-in-law, Trump described Kushner as "a widely respected businessman and real estate developer was instrumental in formulating and executing the strategy behind President-elect Trump's historic victory in November."

Calling the appointment an "honor," Kushner said in a statement he is "energized by the shared passion of the President-elect and the American people."

Who are these American people???  And why will anyone expect politicians to do the hard work of long term strategy when the Trump war is being won on a tactical, day-to-day immediate gratification way?  Defecit spending - Trump's gain, someone else's pain.  Healthcare - disaster, just need to repeal ACA and 'the people' will think we are on their side.  Taxes, need to be cut. 

It's really easy to run the US, as long as you have no historical baggage nor accountability to the future of the citizens.  And you even get 4 years to make some money in the process, just in case things don't work out.  Trump Tower is suddenly the most valuable real estate on the planet, what a great example of selflessness on behalf of our not-yet-even-leader of this free country.  I mean, the White House is not just going to be Trump's vacation home, right?
But they are only getting rid of Obamacare not the ACA.


That is an epic facebook discussion.  Unfortunately a not insignificant number of other Americans make the same mistake or are just idiots.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #923 on: January 10, 2017, 11:46:57 AM »
I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #924 on: January 10, 2017, 11:57:01 AM »
I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Both, and probably at the same time.

Quote
That is an epic facebook discussion.  Unfortunately a not insignificant number of other Americans make the same mistake or are just idiots.
My father's a doctor, and for several years he's mentioned how patients will come in complaining about Obamacare, but when he asks them what they think about the Affordable Care Act the opinions are much better.  When he asks about many of the provisions like not being denied coverage for a pre-existing condition his patients say they love that, and often will say things like "why couldn't the democrats have put those things in Obamacare in the first place?"

::headbang::

also - very few people seem to realize that the bulk of the ACA/Obamacare was actually expanding Medicaid. I've heard many people (some of them liberal democrats) talk about how we need to do away with "Obamacare" and instead increase the funding and coverage of Medicaid

Me thinks there has never been another law so misunderstood.  I'd wager that Republicans could repeal ACA and vote to implement a "new" law that was in fact the ACA in verbatim and we'd have Republicans singing its praises and Democrats talking about how vile it is.


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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #925 on: January 10, 2017, 12:43:41 PM »
http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/trump-meets-anti-vaccine-activist-after-raising-fringe-theory-trail-n705296

Quote
President-elect Donald Trump met with Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., a leading anti-vaccine activist, on Tuesday to discuss vaccination policy, incoming White House press secretary Sean Spicer said.

Kennedy drew fire last year for describing a "holocaust" of children allegedly hurt by immunization (he later apologized for the term), and both Trump and Kennedy have spread fringe theories linking vaccines to autism in children, an idea that medical experts overwhelmingly reject and have warned is endangering public health.

https://twitter.com/BenjySarlin/status/818897616222191617

Quote
RFK Jr says Trump asked him to chair a committee on vaccines. Both of them support fringe anti-vaccine theories.
Make Polio Great Again.


RangerOne

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #926 on: January 10, 2017, 04:13:33 PM »
http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/trump-meets-anti-vaccine-activist-after-raising-fringe-theory-trail-n705296

Quote
President-elect Donald Trump met with Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., a leading anti-vaccine activist, on Tuesday to discuss vaccination policy, incoming White House press secretary Sean Spicer said.

Kennedy drew fire last year for describing a "holocaust" of children allegedly hurt by immunization (he later apologized for the term), and both Trump and Kennedy have spread fringe theories linking vaccines to autism in children, an idea that medical experts overwhelmingly reject and have warned is endangering public health.

https://twitter.com/BenjySarlin/status/818897616222191617

Quote
RFK Jr says Trump asked him to chair a committee on vaccines. Both of them support fringe anti-vaccine theories.
Make Polio Great Again.



Hopefully even in this position an idiot anti-vaxxer can't do that much harm but I don't know that for sure. Being anti vaccine is really somewhere around the bottom rung of being moronically anti science. Just above being a flat Earther or faked moon landing conspiracy theorist.

If a person still believes based on today's science that vaccines are likely to be linked to autism they are dangerously ignorant and should not be in a position of power over public health.

When it comes to being anti science I give maybe a bit of leeway to climate change deniers, because the outcome is so long term it is hard for most to follow the science.

But vaccine science is tested and sound. We see the results of it everyday. Doctors and scientist understand very well how vaccines lead to immunity. People who push this nonsense deserve to be ridiculed and then ignored. So that false information and fear mongering doesn't lead frighted parents to make bad decisions for all of us.

This isn't really a conservative issue though, plenty of liberals believe this bull shit. This is just another area where unregulated ignorance flying around the internet masquerading as expertise has lead to a large number of people believing insane, unsupportable, and harmful ideas. And news as entertainment trying to spice up science by blowing up bad studies or early studies with scary false headlines hasn't been helpful either.

We have paid a high price for free access to information in that people with stupid ideas are as likely gain a following as experts with good ideas.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #927 on: January 10, 2017, 07:22:12 PM »
Yes, anti-vaxxers represent one anti-fact group that if anything is probably filled with more liberals than conservatives. But, I mean, "post truth" isn't just a handy catch phrase. It is literally a "realistic impact of a Trump presidency." I just hope RangerOne is correct that he can't do much harm, because if the official White House opinion on vaccines is declared to be that they are potentially dangerous, the impact could be devastating. This is especially worrisome to me because the media, in its continued puppet dance to avoid accusations of "liberal bias" will likely blast it all over their front pages with headlines like "Trump appointed committee finds links between vaccines and autism!

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #928 on: January 11, 2017, 02:35:08 AM »
Can I try out a thought?  That the last several decades that the evangelical churches have spent decrying the theory of evolution and pushing creationism, to the extent that a significant part of the US population is openly creationist, have primed the pump for the stupidity of the anti-vaxers, the climate change deniers and the post-truth society.

Not to say that other societies don't have their betises, of course, but they do seem to be growing bigger and better in the USA at the moment.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #929 on: January 11, 2017, 07:28:55 AM »
Meanwhile while everyone is focused on Trump's ties with Russia, the house just passed the REINS Act. Nothing like having Congress be the final say on clean water, toxic chemicals, etc. I mean really who needs scientist to determine this stuff?

Gin1984

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #930 on: January 11, 2017, 07:48:24 AM »
Yes, anti-vaxxers represent one anti-fact group that if anything is probably filled with more liberals than conservatives. But, I mean, "post truth" isn't just a handy catch phrase. It is literally a "realistic impact of a Trump presidency." I just hope RangerOne is correct that he can't do much harm, because if the official White House opinion on vaccines is declared to be that they are potentially dangerous, the impact could be devastating. This is especially worrisome to me because the media, in its continued puppet dance to avoid accusations of "liberal bias" will likely blast it all over their front pages with headlines like "Trump appointed committee finds links between vaccines and autism!

This is pretty wild speculation, even with the noted appointees views. It's extremely doubtful the white house would put out anything like that.
Given that Trump has already stated that with his lie that vaccines cause autism, why is that doubtful or wild speculation?  People are likely to repeat previous behaviors.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #931 on: January 11, 2017, 07:59:27 AM »
Yes, anti-vaxxers represent one anti-fact group that if anything is probably filled with more liberals than conservatives. But, I mean, "post truth" isn't just a handy catch phrase. It is literally a "realistic impact of a Trump presidency." I just hope RangerOne is correct that he can't do much harm, because if the official White House opinion on vaccines is declared to be that they are potentially dangerous, the impact could be devastating. This is especially worrisome to me because the media, in its continued puppet dance to avoid accusations of "liberal bias" will likely blast it all over their front pages with headlines like "Trump appointed committee finds links between vaccines and autism!

This is pretty wild speculation, even with the noted appointees views. It's extremely doubtful the white house would put out anything like that.
Given that Trump has already stated that with his lie that vaccines cause autism, why is that doubtful or wild speculation?  People are likely to repeat previous behaviors.

I tend to agree.  We have a president-elect who publicly opined that we need to change vaccine policy because it caused defects in your children, and now he's appointed a very vocal member to be chairman on the committee on vaccinations.
hard not to add up these statements.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #932 on: January 11, 2017, 08:05:14 AM »
Quote
That the last several decades that the evangelical churches have spent...

Sure, the evangelical and unlearned nature of American Christianity has been a driving force in American anti- intellectual and anti-rational thought since the mid-eighteenth century.

Once Americans began rejecting the need for learned ministers to interpret scripture for them and the ability of the common person to commune with God was established, what need was there for education?

The usual argument is that if common sense and open spirit are enough to save your soul, then rationality and education can only be a distraction from that goal.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #933 on: January 11, 2017, 08:43:00 AM »
Meanwhile while everyone is focused on Trump's ties with Russia, the house just passed the REINS Act. Nothing like having Congress be the final say on clean water, toxic chemicals, etc. I mean really who needs scientist to determine this stuff?

This country is so unbelievably screwed.   You know, 'Muricans love to pat themselves on the back about how awesome our western societies are comparison with those countries governed under philosophies of stone age Islamic magical thinking that reject facts.....and now we are racing to join them.

FUCK FACTS! WHO NEEDS THEM?

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #934 on: January 11, 2017, 11:22:26 AM »
Meanwhile while everyone is focused on Trump's ties with Russia, the house just passed the REINS Act. Nothing like having Congress be the final say on clean water, toxic chemicals, etc. I mean really who needs scientist to determine this stuff?

This country is so unbelievably screwed.   You know, 'Muricans love to pat themselves on the back about how awesome our western societies are comparison with those countries governed under philosophies of stone age Islamic magical thinking that reject facts.....and now we are racing to join them.

FUCK FACTS! WHO NEEDS THEM?

A small point of contention . . . Islam was at the forefront of scientific research and discovery in the world around the middle ages.  In the west we were rushing desperately trying to catch up to them.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #935 on: January 11, 2017, 11:41:44 AM »
Just to weigh in with a little optimism, listening to Tillerson's confirmation hearing is actually like listening to the kind of straightforward, reasonable, non-politician 'breath of fresh air' that many Americans had hoped for.  Although I've had reservations about his background, I'll admit that I knew very little about the guy.  I am finding myself much more reassured and optimistic by his stance on the UN (supporting Article 5), Iran (maintaining sanctions), and Russia (actions in Crimea were deplorable and Russians will not be given a clean slate).  Of course, this follows the Trump news conference where we were reassured that Trump passed up a $2B deal in Dubai that he didn't have to pass up, Democrats are lucky Trump will repeal and replace ACA instead of wait because it is such a disaster, the wall will be built and will be paid for by Mexico....
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 11:49:08 AM by EscapeVelocity2020 »
Transitioning to FIRE'd albeit somewhat cautiously...

Freedom2016

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #936 on: January 11, 2017, 12:25:00 PM »
I agree with you EscapeVelocity2020. I'm not 100% thrilled with Tillerson's answers but they are far more reasonable, on the whole, than I was expecting.

Though what is with the repeated use of "cyber" and "the cyber" by Tillerson and just now by Sen Cardin? I thought that wasn't a word!
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 12:26:57 PM by Freedom2016 »

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #937 on: January 11, 2017, 12:26:24 PM »
Just to weigh in with a little optimism, listening to Tillerson's confirmation hearing is actually like listening to the kind of straightforward, reasonable, non-politician 'breath of fresh air' that many Americans had hoped for.  Although I've had reservations about his background, I'll admit that I knew very little about the guy.  I am finding myself much more reassured and optimistic by his stance on the UN (supporting Article 5), Iran (maintaining sanctions), and Russia (actions in Crimea were deplorable and Russians will not be given a clean slate).  Of course, this follows the Trump news conference where we were reassured that Trump passed up a $2B deal in Dubai that he didn't have to pass up, Democrats are lucky Trump will repeal and replace ACA instead of wait because it is such a disaster, the wall will be built and will be paid for by Mexico....
Did you miss this : In 2014 Tillerson strongly opposed the sanctions against Russia. He has previously been the director of the joint US-Russian oil company Exxon Neftegas. In January 2017, it was revealed that while Tillerson was a senior executive at ExxonMobil, a European joint venture called Infineum conducted business with Iran, Syria, and Sudan when those states were under US sanctions.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #938 on: January 11, 2017, 01:40:40 PM »
Meanwhile while everyone is focused on Trump's ties with Russia, the house just passed the REINS Act. Nothing like having Congress be the final say on clean water, toxic chemicals, etc. I mean really who needs scientist to determine this stuff?

This country is so unbelievably screwed.   You know, 'Muricans love to pat themselves on the back about how awesome our western societies are comparison with those countries governed under philosophies of stone age Islamic magical thinking that reject facts.....and now we are racing to join them.

FUCK FACTS! WHO NEEDS THEM?

A small point of contention . . . Islam was at the forefront of scientific research and discovery in the world around the middle ages.  In the west we were rushing desperately trying to catch up to them.

Excellent point. "...currently governed under..."

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #939 on: January 11, 2017, 01:57:58 PM »
Meanwhile while everyone is focused on Trump's ties with Russia, the house just passed the REINS Act. Nothing like having Congress be the final say on clean water, toxic chemicals, etc. I mean really who needs scientist to determine this stuff?

This country is so unbelievably screwed.   You know, 'Muricans love to pat themselves on the back about how awesome our western societies are comparison with those countries governed under philosophies of stone age Islamic magical thinking that reject facts.....and now we are racing to join them.

FUCK FACTS! WHO NEEDS THEM?

A small point of contention . . . Islam was at the forefront of scientific research and discovery in the world around the middle ages.  In the west we were rushing desperately trying to catch up to them.

A small point of contention of my own.... It was not Islam that was at the forefront of such research, it was scientists living under a tolerant Islamic state, the Ottoman Empire.  Mostly under and after Suleiman the Magnificent, who conquered much of Southern Europe.  Certainly, they are responsible for a great many of the libraries that led to the Renaissance period, but more than a few of the greatest advancements in science were discovered by Christians living within the Ottoman Empire; In Southern Italy, Sicily, Greece and Belgrade.  The Ottoman Empire peaked during this time, but their scientific achievements were not due to their Islamic background, culture or state religion; it was mostly due to their (mostly unprecedented) tolerance for other cultures within the empire, as well as Suleiman's own example of marrying a Christian woman.   Of course, their descendants screwed up that historical goodwill during the first world war.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #940 on: January 11, 2017, 02:09:34 PM »
Cyber is definitely a word.  Horny 80s kids know

RangerOne

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #941 on: January 11, 2017, 02:11:20 PM »
Meanwhile while everyone is focused on Trump's ties with Russia, the house just passed the REINS Act. Nothing like having Congress be the final say on clean water, toxic chemicals, etc. I mean really who needs scientist to determine this stuff?

This country is so unbelievably screwed.   You know, 'Muricans love to pat themselves on the back about how awesome our western societies are comparison with those countries governed under philosophies of stone age Islamic magical thinking that reject facts.....and now we are racing to join them.

FUCK FACTS! WHO NEEDS THEM?

A small point of contention . . . Islam was at the forefront of scientific research and discovery in the world around the middle ages.  In the west we were rushing desperately trying to catch up to them.

A small point of contention of my own.... It was not Islam that was at the forefront of such research, it was scientists living under a tolerant Islamic state, the Ottoman Empire.  Mostly under and after Suleiman the Magnificent, who conquered much of Southern Europe.  Certainly, they are responsible for a great many of the libraries that led to the Renaissance period, but more than a few of the greatest advancements in science were discovered by Christians living within the Ottoman Empire; In Southern Italy, Sicily, Greece and Belgrade.  The Ottoman Empire peaked during this time, but their scientific achievements were not due to their Islamic background, culture or state religion; it was mostly due to their (mostly unprecedented) tolerance for other cultures within the empire, as well as Suleiman's own example of marrying a Christian woman.   Of course, their descendants screwed up that historical goodwill during the first world war.

Agreed. This is mostly an example that a society with Islam as a prominent faith can be as open minded and scientific as a christian nation, in spite of the religion not in any way because of it. But if you allow society to be completely ruled by hard line religious zealots driven by faith or a desire to control people that same religion can be used to stifle education, science and tolerance as we see in most if not all current Islamic regimes.

A hard line christian state could have many of the same repressive anti education, anti science and anti women qualities that we see with Islam. Probably how ever absent the incentive for Jihad and terrorism.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #942 on: January 11, 2017, 02:17:55 PM »
Just to weigh in with a little optimism, listening to Tillerson's confirmation hearing is actually like listening to the kind of straightforward, reasonable, non-politician 'breath of fresh air' that many Americans had hoped for.  Although I've had reservations about his background, I'll admit that I knew very little about the guy.  I am finding myself much more reassured and optimistic by his stance on the UN (supporting Article 5), Iran (maintaining sanctions), and Russia (actions in Crimea were deplorable and Russians will not be given a clean slate).  Of course, this follows the Trump news conference where we were reassured that Trump passed up a $2B deal in Dubai that he didn't have to pass up, Democrats are lucky Trump will repeal and replace ACA instead of wait because it is such a disaster, the wall will be built and will be paid for by Mexico....
Did you miss this : In 2014 Tillerson strongly opposed the sanctions against Russia. He has previously been the director of the joint US-Russian oil company Exxon Neftegas. In January 2017, it was revealed that while Tillerson was a senior executive at ExxonMobil, a European joint venture called Infineum conducted business with Iran, Syria, and Sudan when those states were under US sanctions.

Just two small things - I did miss the 2014 info, but I also appreciate Tillerson 'can' have different views as CEO then and now as a private citizen or public government employee.  And most importantly, I did state that I was listening to Tillerson after listening to Trump, the bar was set really low.  I just cannot fathom the idea that Trump is going to be representing the United States of America.  Literally every single thing Trump said was abusive, abrasive, ridiculous, offensive, combative ... except when he walked away to let his lawyer put everyone to sleep.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 02:30:10 PM by EscapeVelocity2020 »
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nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #943 on: January 11, 2017, 02:18:03 PM »

A small point of contention of my own.... It was not Islam that was at the forefront of such research, it was scientists living under a tolerant Islamic state, the Ottoman Empire.  Mostly under and after Suleiman the Magnificent, who conquered much of Southern Europe.  Certainly, they are responsible for a great many of the libraries that led to the Renaissance period, but more than a few of the greatest advancements in science were discovered by Christians living within the Ottoman Empire; In Southern Italy, Sicily, Greece and Belgrade.  The Ottoman Empire peaked during this time, but their scientific achievements were not due to their Islamic background, culture or state religion; it was mostly due to their (mostly unprecedented) tolerance for other cultures within the empire, as well as Suleiman's own example of marrying a Christian woman.   Of course, their descendants screwed up that historical goodwill during the first world war.

Huh??!!  So if I follow your line of thinking, we can't give any credit to a mostly tolerant and civil Islamic society for fostering the advancement of scientific development, and instead we ought to credit some of the Christians who lived and worked within this system?  That's just bizarre and frankly biased.  Also, the list of Muslim scientists and philosophers during the height of the Ottoman Empire (c 1300 - mid 1800s, though it lasted longer) is vast.  Just because you aren't aware of them doesn't mean they didn't contribute.
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RangerOne

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #944 on: January 11, 2017, 02:54:26 PM »

A small point of contention of my own.... It was not Islam that was at the forefront of such research, it was scientists living under a tolerant Islamic state, the Ottoman Empire.  Mostly under and after Suleiman the Magnificent, who conquered much of Southern Europe.  Certainly, they are responsible for a great many of the libraries that led to the Renaissance period, but more than a few of the greatest advancements in science were discovered by Christians living within the Ottoman Empire; In Southern Italy, Sicily, Greece and Belgrade.  The Ottoman Empire peaked during this time, but their scientific achievements were not due to their Islamic background, culture or state religion; it was mostly due to their (mostly unprecedented) tolerance for other cultures within the empire, as well as Suleiman's own example of marrying a Christian woman.   Of course, their descendants screwed up that historical goodwill during the first world war.

Huh??!!  So if I follow your line of thinking, we can't give any credit to a mostly tolerant and civil Islamic society for fostering the advancement of scientific development, and instead we ought to credit some of the Christians who lived and worked within this system?  That's just bizarre and frankly biased.  Also, the list of Muslim scientists and philosophers during the height of the Ottoman Empire (c 1300 - mid 1800s, though it lasted longer) is vast.  Just because you aren't aware of them doesn't mean they didn't contribute.

Missed that part when I read that.... lol. Yeah sorry being Christian lends no special powers of being more scientific. In fact being deeply religious is a guarantee you are going to believe things that completely fly in the face of reason and science.

There do exist scientists that are deeply religious of course, but if you press them you will certainly find that they have to draw a hard line between their faith and science because the two simply cannot be reconciled with reason when they overlap. Faith is the opposite of science in application requiring you to believe things in the absence of strong evidence while science would only have you believe something under rigorous burden of proof.

The fact that scientific advancement occurred in Western society that happened to have primarily Christian faiths is just a matter of how repressive those societies chose to be with regards to education. If you have a religious society that is able to promote education and literacy you will likely have science and advancement in spite of the boundaries religion places on peoples world views.

We would honestly also have no idea how many prominent scientist in history were actually Atheists at heart given that publishing work that was counter to religion would have been seen as heresy.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #945 on: January 11, 2017, 03:08:21 PM »

A small point of contention of my own.... It was not Islam that was at the forefront of such research, it was scientists living under a tolerant Islamic state, the Ottoman Empire.  Mostly under and after Suleiman the Magnificent, who conquered much of Southern Europe.  Certainly, they are responsible for a great many of the libraries that led to the Renaissance period, but more than a few of the greatest advancements in science were discovered by Christians living within the Ottoman Empire; In Southern Italy, Sicily, Greece and Belgrade.  The Ottoman Empire peaked during this time, but their scientific achievements were not due to their Islamic background, culture or state religion; it was mostly due to their (mostly unprecedented) tolerance for other cultures within the empire, as well as Suleiman's own example of marrying a Christian woman.   Of course, their descendants screwed up that historical goodwill during the first world war.

Huh??!!  So if I follow your line of thinking, we can't give any credit to a mostly tolerant and civil Islamic society for fostering the advancement of scientific development, and instead we ought to credit some of the Christians who lived and worked within this system?  That's just bizarre and frankly biased.  Also, the list of Muslim scientists and philosophers during the height of the Ottoman Empire (c 1300 - mid 1800s, though it lasted longer) is vast.  Just because you aren't aware of them doesn't mean they didn't contribute.

I didn't claim that they didn't contribute.  My point was that the dominate religion of the empire was not the important factor, and doesn't deserve the kudos your statement implies.
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nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #946 on: January 11, 2017, 03:56:06 PM »

A small point of contention of my own.... It was not Islam that was at the forefront of such research, it was scientists living under a tolerant Islamic state, the Ottoman Empire.  Mostly under and after Suleiman the Magnificent, who conquered much of Southern Europe.  Certainly, they are responsible for a great many of the libraries that led to the Renaissance period, but more than a few of the greatest advancements in science were discovered by Christians living within the Ottoman Empire; In Southern Italy, Sicily, Greece and Belgrade.  The Ottoman Empire peaked during this time, but their scientific achievements were not due to their Islamic background, culture or state religion; it was mostly due to their (mostly unprecedented) tolerance for other cultures within the empire, as well as Suleiman's own example of marrying a Christian woman.   Of course, their descendants screwed up that historical goodwill during the first world war.

Huh??!!  So if I follow your line of thinking, we can't give any credit to a mostly tolerant and civil Islamic society for fostering the advancement of scientific development, and instead we ought to credit some of the Christians who lived and worked within this system?  That's just bizarre and frankly biased.  Also, the list of Muslim scientists and philosophers during the height of the Ottoman Empire (c 1300 - mid 1800s, though it lasted longer) is vast.  Just because you aren't aware of them doesn't mean they didn't contribute.

I didn't claim that they didn't contribute.  My point was that the dominate religion of the empire was not the important factor, and doesn't deserve the kudos your statement implies.

Why does the dominant religion in this case not constitute an important factor. This wasn't an open democracy where a plethora of religious persuasions permeated government and the society; this was an overwhelmingly Islamic society. Islam was the primary identity - it was a part of both government and daily life. That society carried the torch for virtually all forms of intellectual advancement in the region for several hundred years until the enlightenment, and then existed in parallel for a century or two more.

To say "yeah, they were Muslim but it wasn't at all important to why the society was successful" seems dishonest to me.  Also, I was not one giving kudos - that was GuitarStv (see upthread)
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KBecks

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #947 on: January 12, 2017, 07:16:39 AM »
I'm not sure if we're talking about the same time period, but in Spain,  Muslims, Christians and Jews lived peacefully together.  The other religions were not dominated, but they coexisted.  It sounds good.  I am sure it was not perfect because perfect does not exist, but peaceful sounds very good. 

Unique User

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #948 on: January 12, 2017, 07:22:11 AM »
The press conference was truly frightening, although I only listened to it and did not watch.  I noticed one weird thing, but my perception may have been skewed since I only listened.  Were reporters clapping and cheering for him?  It seemed bizarre to hear clapping and cheering at a press conference.  I guess only more bizarre then ending a press conference with "You're Fired".

Kris

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #949 on: January 12, 2017, 07:24:54 AM »
The press conference was truly frightening, although I only listened to it and did not watch.  I noticed one weird thing, but my perception may have been skewed since I only listened.  Were reporters clapping and cheering for him?  It seemed bizarre to hear clapping and cheering at a press conference.  I guess only more bizarre then ending a press conference with "You're Fired".

No, he brought a bunch of his paid staffers with him to clap and cheer.

Because of course he did.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.