Author Topic: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?  (Read 131610 times)

OurTown

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #850 on: January 04, 2017, 11:44:51 AM »
Yes, it's all about the reporting, isn't it?  The reports on Trump quoting Mattis were accurate but incomplete.  Including Trump's follow-on comments changes the outcome of the story.

With Trump, the only constant is that the story will change...

Just in case we have had enough Godwin and everyone is tired of the Hitler comparisons, click this link:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvio_Berlusconi

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #851 on: January 05, 2017, 06:33:54 AM »
With Trump, the only constant is that the story will change...

So true.  Now Trump is writing on Twitter that Republicans need to be careful and make sure Dems "own" the repeal of the ACA.  As much as I have hated the endless Republican efforts to repeal the Affordable Care Act and as much as I fear it will extend my time at a full time job and as much as I hate will affect so many people that did not vote in the crowd that wanted to repeal it, a part of me is looking forward to the lesson many will soon learn of voting against one's own best interest and the best interest of the common good.

Pooplips

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #852 on: January 05, 2017, 06:39:31 AM »
Quote
Again, if it means so much to you, start that thread. It doesn't mean that much to myself, because I can manage with or without the ACA.

Thank you for finally coming clean and explaining yourself.  It sounds like you simply don't care much if, under Trump, people with pre-existing conditions will actually have access to healthcare at a reasonable cost.  That's a value judgement only you can make, and it sounds like you're good with it. 

This thread makes more sense now.  For a second, I thought you actually believed that Trump's proposed healthcare solutions would provide viable options for those with pre-existing conditions.  Thanks for clarifying. 
 

I don't see what he said as being any different than the people discussing how they or someone they know has a pre-existing condition.

ACA is fantastic for people with pre-existing conditions and provideds them with a health and financial benefit.

He obviously does not have a pre-exisiting condition and the means to pay for his own health care, so, he sees the ACA as just another cost imposed on him.

Everyone has their bias.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #853 on: January 05, 2017, 06:42:31 AM »
With Trump, the only constant is that the story will change...

So true.  Now Trump is writing on Twitter that Republicans need to be careful and make sure Dems "own" the repeal of the ACA.  As much as I have hated the endless Republican efforts to repeal the Affordable Care Act and as much as I fear it will extend my time at a full time job and as much as I hate will affect so many people that did not vote in the crowd that wanted to repeal it, a part of me is looking forward to the lesson many will soon learn of voting against one's own best interest and the best interest of the common good.

Well, remember that this summer there were enough democratic congress people who voted with republicans to get a repeal bill to President Obama's desk; if those votes are still there, it would technically be a bi-partisan effort to repeal/improve the ACA.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #854 on: January 05, 2017, 08:43:56 AM »
With Trump, the only constant is that the story will change...

So true.  Now Trump is writing on Twitter that Republicans need to be careful and make sure Dems "own" the repeal of the ACA.  As much as I have hated the endless Republican efforts to repeal the Affordable Care Act and as much as I fear it will extend my time at a full time job and as much as I hate will affect so many people that did not vote in the crowd that wanted to repeal it, a part of me is looking forward to the lesson many will soon learn of voting against one's own best interest and the best interest of the common good.

Well, remember that this summer there were enough democratic congress people who voted with republicans to get a repeal bill to President Obama's desk; if those votes are still there, it would technically be a bi-partisan effort to repeal/improve the ACA.

When the Republicans "repeal" and forget to "replace," it'll all be on their heads just like the federal government shutdowns. You're dreaming if you think otherwise because a handful of Democrats voted with them.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #855 on: January 05, 2017, 09:20:15 AM »
When the Republicans "repeal" and forget to "replace," it'll all be on their heads just like the federal government shutdowns. You're dreaming if you think otherwise because a handful of Democrats voted with them.

And yet they suffered little-to-no negative consequences for the shutdown.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #856 on: January 05, 2017, 09:23:52 AM »
With Trump, the only constant is that the story will change...

So true.  Now Trump is writing on Twitter that Republicans need to be careful and make sure Dems "own" the repeal of the ACA.  As much as I have hated the endless Republican efforts to repeal the Affordable Care Act and as much as I fear it will extend my time at a full time job and as much as I hate will affect so many people that did not vote in the crowd that wanted to repeal it, a part of me is looking forward to the lesson many will soon learn of voting against one's own best interest and the best interest of the common good.

Well, remember that this summer there were enough democratic congress people who voted with republicans to get a repeal bill to President Obama's desk; if those votes are still there, it would technically be a bi-partisan effort to repeal/improve the ACA.

When the Republicans "repeal" and forget to "replace," it'll all be on their heads just like the federal government shutdowns. You're dreaming if you think otherwise because a handful of Democrats voted with them.

I disagree. Humans have too short of an attention span. We see the past 8 years as the slowest recovery in history, not the biggest turnaround without sinking into a depression, possibly since the dawn of time. What even IS a depression? Very few have ever seen one. I have not.


I believe Republicans will cut funding while bypassing the filibuster. They will delay a few years to get past mid-terms. We are then left with unfunded Obamacare about 3 years from now. If the Democrats say no to the "replace", no matter how piss poor it might be for the sick, the poor, the middle class, it will still be better than absolutely nothing. If the replace fails to pass, it will rest FULLY on the Democrats. People will not see the plan as worse than Obamacare (it will be worse for some, better for others). They will see it as better than NOTHING and the election 4 years from now will move the Republicans past the filibuster count in the Senate. The ONLY way this could rest with the republicans is if they get EXACTLY what they want and it does not work out well. Democrats will not let that happen. Republicans have played a masterful political game and have won for the next quarter century. I hope I am wrong.

This is like watching a chess match between a Grandmaster and a toddler. The only one that doesn't know the end result from move one is the toddler.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #857 on: January 05, 2017, 10:19:47 AM »
When the Republicans "repeal" and forget to "replace," it'll all be on their heads just like the federal government shutdowns. You're dreaming if you think otherwise because a handful of Democrats voted with them.

And yet they suffered little-to-no negative consequences for the shutdown.

If the repeal goes poorly I'm sure that will be reflected in the next voting cycle.

Gondolin

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #858 on: January 05, 2017, 11:03:05 AM »
Quote
FDR was in the military

You meant Teddy, right?

Anyway, all your points are valid. The only point I was making is that in 100 years when the Trump presidency is looked back upon, 95% of the statements and minor controversies that get everyone so riled up today will be utterly forgotten.

That said, I'm not optimistic that the 5% 'big picture' policies will be remembered fondly either...


Quote
Republicans have played a masterful political game and have won for the next quarter century. I hope I am wrong.

I think you're giving the endlessly fractious coalition of interests that constitute a major political party way too much credit.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #859 on: January 05, 2017, 12:17:14 PM »
When the Republicans "repeal" and forget to "replace," it'll all be on their heads just like the federal government shutdowns. You're dreaming if you think otherwise because a handful of Democrats voted with them.

And yet they suffered little-to-no negative consequences for the shutdown.
The GOP is going to be blaming Obama for everything for years to come. And their base will lap it up.
They are already trying to blame Obama for the Russian hacking and not having intervened earlier. I'm sure their tune would be very different if he had intervened harder earlier.
Really fuck the GOP and their enablers.
But, but, emails my ass.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #860 on: January 05, 2017, 12:39:16 PM »
When the Republicans "repeal" and forget to "replace," it'll all be on their heads just like the federal government shutdowns. You're dreaming if you think otherwise because a handful of Democrats voted with them.

And yet they suffered little-to-no negative consequences for the shutdown.
Because no one really suffered. Unless of course your camping trip was cancelled ;).

As much  I think redistribution of wealth is immoral I would be absolutely floored if they actually repealed it; your concerns are unwarranted.

Abe

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #861 on: January 05, 2017, 07:25:45 PM »
Quote
FDR was in the military

You meant Teddy, right?

Anyway, all your points are valid. The only point I was making is that in 100 years when the Trump presidency is looked back upon, 95% of the statements and minor controversies that get everyone so riled up today will be utterly forgotten.

That said, I'm not optimistic that the 5% 'big picture' policies will be remembered fondly either...


Quote
Republicans have played a masterful political game and have won for the next quarter century. I hope I am wrong.

I think you're giving the endlessly fractious coalition of interests that constitute a major political party way too much credit.

Agree with your points above, but would note that FDR attempted to serve in the military during World War I (he obviously wouldn't be fit for duty for WWII) but was denied as he was Assistant Secretary of the Navy at the time since he was deemed necessary personnel in that role. What part the fact that his family was super-rich and his uncle was Teddy Roosevelt played in the "denial" is unknown.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #862 on: January 06, 2017, 06:39:38 AM »
When the Republicans "repeal" and forget to "replace," it'll all be on their heads just like the federal government shutdowns. You're dreaming if you think otherwise because a handful of Democrats voted with them.

And yet they suffered little-to-no negative consequences for the shutdown.
Because no one really suffered. Unless of course your camping trip was cancelled ;).

As much  I think redistribution of wealth is immoral I would be absolutely floored if they actually repealed it; your concerns are unwarranted.

There was that whole veterans memorial thing too. Silly political games. Wasn't Obamas finest moment.
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sol

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #863 on: January 06, 2017, 08:46:01 AM »
There was that whole veterans memorial thing too. Silly political games. Wasn't Obamas finest moment.

Why was it Obama's fault when Congress couldn't get its shit together? 

That government shutdown was a legislative branch problem.  Obama bears no more responsibility for it than does the Supreme Court, but for some reason I don't see you blaming them.

Kris

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #864 on: January 06, 2017, 09:35:48 AM »
There was that whole veterans memorial thing too. Silly political games. Wasn't Obamas finest moment.

Why was it Obama's fault when Congress couldn't get its shit together? 

That government shutdown was a legislative branch problem.  Obama bears no more responsibility for it than does the Supreme Court, but for some reason I don't see you blaming them.

Sol, if there's one thing you should have learned in the last eight years, it's that everything is Obama's fault. #thanksobama
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #865 on: January 06, 2017, 09:39:43 AM »
There was that whole veterans memorial thing too. Silly political games. Wasn't Obamas finest moment.

Why was it Obama's fault when Congress couldn't get its shit together? 

That government shutdown was a legislative branch problem.  Obama bears no more responsibility for it than does the Supreme Court, but for some reason I don't see you blaming them.

Sol, if there's one thing you should have learned in the last eight years, it's that everything is Obama's fault. #thanksobama

This is all I can ever think of when someone says "Thanks, Obama"

The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

Pooplips

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #866 on: January 06, 2017, 09:51:02 AM »
I thought the last eight years everything was Bush's fault? The upcoming years Obama will get the blame. haha

Kris

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #867 on: January 06, 2017, 10:17:15 AM »
I thought the last eight years everything was Bush's fault? The upcoming years Obama will get the blame. haha

Nope. All the backsliding we did from 2000-2008 is on the Bush administration. No way would I let Bush take credit for the job growth and economic improvement of the last eight years.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #868 on: January 06, 2017, 10:40:50 AM »

RangerOne

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #869 on: January 06, 2017, 02:57:05 PM »
The worst part of all of this is now guarantee we have to watch another election cycle where Trump is the focus...

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #870 on: January 06, 2017, 03:25:28 PM »
The worst part of all of this is now guarantee we have to watch another election cycle where Trump is the focus...
Oh goodness, don't remind us of what is going to happen in 4 years...

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #871 on: January 06, 2017, 03:29:25 PM »
There was that whole veterans memorial thing too. Silly political games. Wasn't Obamas finest moment.

Why was it Obama's fault when Congress couldn't get its shit together? 

That government shutdown was a legislative branch problem.  Obama bears no more responsibility for it than does the Supreme Court, but for some reason I don't see you blaming them.

You are confusing the overall shut down with specific closures instructed by the administration.
 
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #872 on: January 06, 2017, 05:09:33 PM »
The worst part of all of this is now guarantee we have to watch another election cycle where Trump is the focus...
Oh goodness, don't remind us of what is going to happen in 4 years...

Probably in 8 years, also; if you think about it.
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sol

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #873 on: January 06, 2017, 06:09:17 PM »
You are confusing the overall shut down with specific closures instructed by the administration.

The "specific closures" are determined by each agency, not by the President.  I was "non-essential" for example, so I had to sit home. 

I was unhappy about it, but I certainly didn't think to blame Obama for it.  Everything was closed except for public health and safety personnel, basically.  No one "ordered" anything in particular to shut down.  Everything shut down, unless it was given specific instructions to stay open for safety reasons that supposedly warranted indefinite deficit spending.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #874 on: January 06, 2017, 06:20:17 PM »
You are confusing the overall shut down with specific closures instructed by the administration.

The "specific closures" are determined by each agency, not by the President.  I was "non-essential" for example, so I had to sit home. 

I was unhappy about it, but I certainly didn't think to blame Obama for it.  Everything was closed except for public health and safety personnel, basically.  No one "ordered" anything in particular to shut down.  Everything shut down, unless it was given specific instructions to stay open for safety reasons that supposedly warranted indefinite deficit spending.

Sorry, i was mis remebering. It was the Democratic contolled senate who refused to pass H.J . resolution 70, and not the president specifically.
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sol

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #875 on: January 06, 2017, 06:23:34 PM »
Sorry, i was mis remebering. It was the Democratic contolled senate who refused to pass H.J . resolution 70, and not the president specifically.

Funny, I remember it as the Republican minority that attached an ACA repeal amendment to the federal budget bill, while the Democrats wanted to pass a clean funding bill.  Ted Cruz was on TV!

But we can remember differently.  If there's one thing this election has taught me, it's that facts no longer matter.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #876 on: January 06, 2017, 06:26:24 PM »
Sorry, i was mis remebering. It was the Democratic contolled senate who refused to pass H.J . resolution 70, and not the president specifically.

Funny, I remember it as the Republican minority that attached an ACA repeal amendment to the federal budget bill, while the Democrats wanted to pass a clean funding bill.  Ted Cruz was on TV!

But we can remember differently.  If there's one thing this election has taught me, it's that facts no longer matter.

Both are true, and both would have kept national parks and museums open.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #877 on: January 06, 2017, 06:36:44 PM »
But we can remember differently.  If there's one thing this election has taught me, it's that facts no longer matter.

Honestly, Sol; I question whether they ever did.  Perception is everything in the age of social media, and maybe it always has been.  This might be why Trump uses twitter posts to circumvent the mass media, in the same way that FDR used regular "fireside chats".  He who controls the perception of the masses, controls the masses.  We have already had an actor as president, and now a reality tv star; perhaps a talk radio pundit is next.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #878 on: January 07, 2017, 08:54:27 AM »
But we can remember differently.  If there's one thing this election has taught me, it's that facts no longer matter.

Honestly, Sol; I question whether they ever did.  Perception is everything in the age of social media, and maybe it always has been.  This might be why Trump uses twitter posts to circumvent the mass media, in the same way that FDR used regular "fireside chats".  He who controls the perception of the masses, controls the masses.  We have already had an actor as president, and now a reality tv star; perhaps a talk radio pundit is next.
This is where progressives dropped the ball. The Obama administration focused on governing, and neglected to spin their efforts/results to be interpreted by the public in a favorable way. Instead, they let the think-tank influenced press morph every action or inaction into a story where Obama was eating live babies.

I don't like it. Don't get me wrong though. I *want* my government focused on policy and not on propaganda. But look where that has us. If only we had a free press that reported government activities objectively. We once did. However, between the lapse of the fairness doctrine (Reagan)  and later the telecommunications act of (iirc) 1994, the press was allowed to abandon their duty to demonstrate their value for the public good. The result is that we end up with heritage foundation talking points baiting the regular press into discussing absolute bullshit.

It sucks man.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 09:00:37 AM by Malaysia41 »
last one to panic wins! (confession: I am kinda freakin' out a bit right now because the GOP is a cult and most of my family are card carrying members. It sucks.)

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #879 on: January 07, 2017, 02:53:31 PM »
But we can remember differently.  If there's one thing this election has taught me, it's that facts no longer matter.

Honestly, Sol; I question whether they ever did.  Perception is everything in the age of social media, and maybe it always has been.  This might be why Trump uses twitter posts to circumvent the mass media, in the same way that FDR used regular "fireside chats".  He who controls the perception of the masses, controls the masses.  We have already had an actor as president, and now a reality tv star; perhaps a talk radio pundit is next.
This is where progressives dropped the ball. The Obama administration focused on governing, and neglected to spin their efforts/results to be interpreted by the public in a favorable way. Instead, they let the think-tank influenced press morph every action or inaction into a story where Obama was eating live babies.

I don't like it. Don't get me wrong though. I *want* my government focused on policy and not on propaganda. But look where that has us. If only we had a free press that reported government activities objectively. We once did. However, between the lapse of the fairness doctrine (Reagan)  and later the telecommunications act of (iirc) 1994, the press was allowed to abandon their duty to demonstrate their value for the public good. The result is that we end up with heritage foundation talking points baiting the regular press into discussing absolute bullshit.

It sucks man.

Um, no we didn't.  The media has always had it's biases, although they have shifted repeatedly over the past 100 years.  Fake news is not a new phenomenon, either.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #880 on: January 07, 2017, 03:58:51 PM »
I fervently disagree quindon. The press, esp the mainstream press, was quite a bit more objective in the days of Edward R Murrow. Back then, press were required to demonstrate they served the public interest.  They strove for journalistic standards and professionalism. Of course they weren't perfect, but they at least tried to hone in on reality. Sure they neglected to cover salacious scandals. But they didn't spin stories for corporate masters - well, if they did, they didn't spin as brazenly as they do now.

It's been shown that these accusations of liberal bias - starting under the Nixon administration - turned out to actually be a bias for the truth. Edna Efron's News Twisters, the book that seeded this whole 'liberal bias' mantra, was itself full of bias and inconsistencies in her analysis. Yet it's quoted to this day.

Also, news orgs back then were owned by disparate and conflicting owners. After the telecom act under Clinton, massive consolidation occurred. Now the majority of news outlets are owned by 6 corporations.

It's entirely different now. It's demonstrably worse. One main difference is the internet. But as we've seen - that's a many edged sword.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 04:04:36 PM by Malaysia41 »
last one to panic wins! (confession: I am kinda freakin' out a bit right now because the GOP is a cult and most of my family are card carrying members. It sucks.)

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #881 on: January 07, 2017, 05:22:39 PM »
I'm skeptical of the idea that "fake news" is demonstrably worse now than it ever has been in the past. 
Propaganda throughout history has often been blatantly false, politicians and parties have 'created' scapegoats and perpetuated horrible and untrue stereotypes (see: Jews, Gypsies, blacks, hispanics, gays, immigrants, socialists, the Japanese... just to name a few from the 20th century alone).
Advertisers in the US used to be able to guarantee products would prevent or cure ailments - now they just suggest it will revive your set life in a claw-foot tub.

Then as now politicians occasionally lost because people believed things about them that simple fact-checking proved to be false.  Jefferson paid a newspaper editor to write a negative Op-Ed about his opponent John Adams. Jackson claimed his opponent's mother was a prostitute. Kerry's extensive military career was called into question when he was 'swift-boated'.  Kennedy claimed the USSR had more missiles than the US (they didn't) and we needed to close the 'Missile gap.'   Nixon, like Trump, aired commercials about crime sweeping our nation when there was no increase.

I have no doubt fake news is a problem, and fake news stories are almost certainly spreading faster today than in any previous decade, but historical perspective is important.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #882 on: January 07, 2017, 05:40:39 PM »
I have no doubt fake news is a problem, and fake news stories are almost certainly spreading faster today than in any previous decade, but historical perspective is important.

I'm not even sure that a historical perspective is important anymore.  Sure, the axiom that we are doomed to repeat the past rings loud in my ears, but people *do believe* that this time it's different.  And even I believe that, to a larger extent than usual.  We have one branch of government that has gone off of all historical rails, and there is a Legislative branch and Judicial branch that are leaning over toward augmenting their impact.  So if it's not different this time, then I'll relax for a very long time, but I do think we are in a new realm of what is possible in terms of social reform, and a small, savvy, manipulative group are pulling the strings.  Trump can shift millions of investment dollars and billions of tax / government dollars with each 'new initiative'.  And I do personally think that he puts himself and his family before the will of the nation he is charged with governing and protecting.

Also, even if people have stayed the same, it appears that social media / fake news on people's Twitter / Facebook is more effective than the propaganda methods of the past.  Maybe like when we watch 'special effects' from the pre-2010 era and laugh at how obviously fake it is, then are silent about obvious CGI-enhancement nowadays (legitimizing the extent that many historical special effects are perfected and acceptable, like 'fake weather', tracking, figurants).
« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 06:04:20 PM by EscapeVelocity2020 »
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nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #883 on: January 07, 2017, 05:54:32 PM »
I have no doubt fake news is a problem, and fake news stories are almost certainly spreading faster today than in any previous decade, but historical perspective is important.

I'm not even sure that a historical perspective is important anymore.  Sure, the axiom that we are doomed to repeat the past rings loud in my ears, but people *do believe* that this time it's different.  And even I believe that, to a larger extent than usual.  We have one branch of government that has gone off of all historical rails, and there is a Legislative branch and Judicial branch that are leaning over toward augmenting their impact.  So if it's not different this time, then I'll relax for a very long time, but I do think we are in a new realm of what is possible in terms of social reform, and a small, savvy, manipulative group are pulling the strings.  Trump can shift millions of investment dollars and billions of tax / government dollars with each 'new initiative'.  And I do personally think that he puts himself and his family before the will of the nation he is charged with governing and protecting.

Please don't mistake my comments for support; I too feel more apprehentious than I ever have about our current federal government, and the failure of Trump to disclose his taxes, his hiring of billionaires and financial insiders only add to my concern.
My point is merely that there are historical analogs, and so far we've endured.  I pray we don't wind up in another avoidable war, and that scapegoats aren't locked up or blacklisted as we've seen in the past.  It could very well be horrible... or it could not.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #884 on: January 07, 2017, 06:03:16 PM »
I fervently disagree quindon. The press, esp the mainstream press, was quite a bit more objective in the days of Edward R Murrow.

You just referred to a subjective observation as "quite a bit more objective".  And while the "liberal bias" in the age of Nixon was mostly BS, it certainly wasn't during the age of Clinton, Bush 2 or Obama.  Like I said before, the biases of the media tend to shift, but they do exist, and they always have.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #885 on: January 07, 2017, 06:23:10 PM »
I fervently disagree quindon. The press, esp the mainstream press, was quite a bit more objective in the days of Edward R Murrow.

You just referred to a subjective observation as "quite a bit more objective".  And while the "liberal bias" in the age of Nixon was mostly BS, it certainly wasn't during the age of Clinton, Bush 2 or Obama.  Like I said before, the biases of the media tend to shift, but they do exist, and they always have.

I think whether or not there is a "liberal bias" or a "conservative bias" depends on how you attempt to measure the bias. There is no one media, so how do we define whether, on a whole, it leans one way or another? First there's the problem of determining where the line is between liberal and conservative (which is different depending on the decade, country, and even generation you are talking about).

Do we look at the total number of news outlets, or somehow weight outlets based on their number of customers? Do we treat all flavors of news media equally?  There are certainly more radio talk-shows that consider themselves 'conservative' - but there might be (I'm just guessing here) more pod-casts that lean liberal. Does an extremely conservative media outlet balance out an organization that's just left of center, or is the net still conservative in that case?

Finally, if people only or predominatly get their news only from sources that lean solidly one way or another, what use is it to say that there's an overall 'bias' one way or the other?  From the individual's perspective there isn't one.
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Quidnon?

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #886 on: January 07, 2017, 06:31:01 PM »
I fervently disagree quindon. The press, esp the mainstream press, was quite a bit more objective in the days of Edward R Murrow.

You just referred to a subjective observation as "quite a bit more objective".  And while the "liberal bias" in the age of Nixon was mostly BS, it certainly wasn't during the age of Clinton, Bush 2 or Obama.  Like I said before, the biases of the media tend to shift, but they do exist, and they always have.

I think whether or not there is a "liberal bias" or a "conservative bias" depends on how you attempt to measure the bias. There is no one media, so how do we define whether, on a whole, it leans one way or another? First there's the problem of determining where the line is between liberal and conservative (which is different depending on the decade, country, and even generation you are talking about).

Do we look at the total number of news outlets, or somehow weight outlets based on their number of customers? Do we treat all flavors of news media equally?  There are certainly more radio talk-shows that consider themselves 'conservative' - but there might be (I'm just guessing here) more pod-casts that lean liberal. Does an extremely conservative media outlet balance out an organization that's just left of center, or is the net still conservative in that case?

Finally, if people only or predominatly get their news only from sources that lean solidly one way or another, what use is it to say that there's an overall 'bias' one way or the other?  From the individual's perspective there isn't one.

This is also a wonderful point.  Never has the media been monolithic in their biases, but neither have they ever been unbiased.  How one perceives the media in general has much to do with what the observer's own biases are, as well as which media outlets they are most likely to be exposed to, both voluntarily and circumstantially.  So it's entirely reasonable for two people living in different cities with different ideological preferences to come to completely different opinions about "the media", while both trying to be as objective as they can from their own position.
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marty998

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #887 on: January 07, 2017, 07:00:28 PM »
Finally, if people only or predominatly get their news only from sources that lean solidly one way or another, what use is it to say that there's an overall 'bias' one way or the other?  From the individual's perspective there isn't one.

Last year the ex-chief executive officer of the ANZ Bank Mike Smith was asked by the Board of the Australian Broadcasting Corporation (the ABC - Australia's taxpayer funded public broadcaster), to conduct an investigation into perceived left wing bias in content and programming. His part of the review was about the ABC's portrayal of business, companies, the economy and stakeholder groups such as unions.

He freely admitted beforehand that he thought the ABC was full of left wing bias, was anti-business and championed progressive causes too much.

After conducting the review, he explicitly stated that he felt the coverage was rigorous and balanced*, and on the whole portrayed business in a positive light.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/media-and-marketing/abc-cleared-of-antibusiness-bias-in-independent-review-20160722-gqbp68.html

It's quite amazing how perceptions can be changed if you take the time to engage with content. The broader point is I'd like to make is that how can you claim an organisation is biased if you never consume it's content?

If you do consume enough content from a MSM source and still claim bias, why do you (generally, not specifically directed at any one poster) bother reading it?

It's something that I notice/observe a lot on various internet forums...

Progressives will not consume content from what they perceive to be right wing news sources (such as Fox), and therefore won't really be in a position to argue against it, or will stay silent (because they "know" it's rubbish anyway), and engaging in a debate won't change anything.

Conservatives seem to watch every minute and read every story published on what they perceive to be left-wing media, and will jump on any indication, no matter how small, of left-wing bias. They will also outright ignore any story published by "left-wing" media that supports a conservative point of view.

I honestly don't know how some of them have so much time to spend consuming media that they hate so much.

* The review also found that the ABC is biased in favour of covering big business, and doesn't give enough coverage to small business. The ABC acknowledged this by saying it does not have the resources to cover individual small businesses easily in a mass media format (TV/Radio), and that it is comparatively simpler to cover big business stories and link them to events such as stock-market movements.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 07:03:13 PM by marty998 »

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #888 on: January 07, 2017, 07:47:54 PM »

It's quite amazing how perceptions can be changed if you take the time to engage with content. The broader point is I'd like to make is that how can you claim an organisation is biased if you never consume it's content?


I firmly believe that Americans perceive journalists to be liberal.  Therefore, it is quite easy to dismiss whatever the resultant work to be biased, even if they still use facts to craft a narrative as opposed to a flood of tweets.  It's sad that shortcuts and generalizations to finalize opinions are justified by this information age, but we can hope that folks realize that being preoccupied and distracted ultimately does not count as being informed.  And being truly informed requires that you write something for yourself when you need to know where you stand, and then interact with others, and follow up to fill in the blanks...
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #889 on: January 08, 2017, 02:26:09 AM »
From a UK point of view, one of the astonishing things about USA politics is that no-one seems to agree on the facts.  In the UK, we generally agree on the facts and then the dispute is about the interpretation and what action to take.  If you can't even agree on the facts, there is no hope for a rational discussion.  But in the US there also seems to be no interest in facts, or a deliberate omission of the facts, or a distorted presentation of the facts, which is the start of a death spiral for democracy.
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marty998

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #890 on: January 08, 2017, 03:38:05 AM »
From a UK point of view, one of the astonishing things about USA politics is that no-one seems to agree on the facts.  In the UK, we generally agree on the facts and then the dispute is about the interpretation and what action to take.  If you can't even agree on the facts, there is no hope for a rational discussion.  But in the US there also seems to be no interest in facts, or a deliberate omission of the facts, or a distorted presentation of the facts, which is the start of a death spiral for democracy.

It's the same in Australia. Both sides generally use the same data to arrive at substantially similar facts and want the same destination/outcomes, they just disagree on how to get to that destination.

Not withstanding Australia being one of the most diverse nations on earth, I would hazard a guess a nation of 320 million is going to have a lot more well resourced "loud voices" and special interest groups arguing their case than a nation of 25 or 60 million.

nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #891 on: January 08, 2017, 06:57:40 AM »
From a UK point of view, one of the astonishing things about USA politics is that no-one seems to agree on the facts.  In the UK, we generally agree on the facts and then the dispute is about the interpretation and what action to take.  If you can't even agree on the facts, there is no hope for a rational discussion.  But in the US there also seems to be no interest in facts, or a deliberate omission of the facts, or a distorted presentation of the facts, which is the start of a death spiral for democracy.

It's the same in Australia. Both sides generally use the same data to arrive at substantially similar facts and want the same destination/outcomes, they just disagree on how to get to that destination.

Not withstanding Australia being one of the most diverse nations on earth, I would hazard a guess a nation of 320 million is going to have a lot more well resourced "loud voices" and special interest groups arguing their case than a nation of 25 or 60 million.

I can't comment on Australia, but I think there are several factors at play in the US that contribute to the "loud voices" you speak of.  First is sheer size of the US company and with that the number of very large corporations that can afford to lobby hard for their special interests. Unlike authoritarian China corporations and unions here have a healthy degree of autonomy and push for what is in their best interests, often with little discussion about what is best for the country as a whole. Second, we're a large country both in terms of size and population (4th on both accounts, I think). Combined with moderate diversity this creates lots of microcosms where large areas with lots of people can find it hard to relate to other other areas (examples:  California and Texas; New England and the Deep South).  Third, our executive branch has become increasingly more powerful since at least WWII at the expense of the state governments and the US Congress. That's created an environment where whole states feel under threat of the presiding government and fuels this "not my president" mentality.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #892 on: January 08, 2017, 10:41:32 AM »

From a UK point of view, one of the astonishing things about USA politics is that no-one seems to agree on the facts.  In the UK, we generally agree on the facts and then the dispute is about the interpretation and what action to take.  If you can't even agree on the facts, there is no hope for a rational discussion.  But in the US there also seems to be no interest in facts, or a deliberate omission of the facts, or a distorted presentation of the facts, which is the start of a death spiral for democracy.

It's the same in Australia. Both sides generally use the same data to arrive at substantially similar facts and want the same destination/outcomes, they just disagree on how to get to that destination.

Not withstanding Australia being one of the most diverse nations on earth, I would hazard a guess a nation of 320 million is going to have a lot more well resourced "loud voices" and special interest groups arguing their case than a nation of 25 or 60 million.

Up until the 1980's the USA was largely like this as well, but then President Reagan gutted the fairness doctrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairness_Doctrine) and the media (fox, etc.) started to spin out of control. The result now is that people on the right are convinced that all democrats want to steal their guns(tm), and people on the far left and far right eating up weird propaganda hit pieces about quite ordinary politicians. We now have a complete breakdown of a large part of the population's ability to tell when something is coming from a reliable source. I've heard it hypothesized that older generations are particularly susceptible to media spin, as they grew up in a time before the fairness doctrine was repealed.
http://www.salon.com/2015/08/02/this_is_how_the_clowns_took_over_the_sad_history_leading_to_the_spectacle_of_a_fox_news_debate_starring_front_runner_donald_trump/

Malaysia41

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #893 on: January 09, 2017, 06:31:17 AM »

From a UK point of view, one of the astonishing things about USA politics is that no-one seems to agree on the facts.  In the UK, we generally agree on the facts and then the dispute is about the interpretation and what action to take.  If you can't even agree on the facts, there is no hope for a rational discussion.  But in the US there also seems to be no interest in facts, or a deliberate omission of the facts, or a distorted presentation of the facts, which is the start of a death spiral for democracy.

It's the same in Australia. Both sides generally use the same data to arrive at substantially similar facts and want the same destination/outcomes, they just disagree on how to get to that destination.

Not withstanding Australia being one of the most diverse nations on earth, I would hazard a guess a nation of 320 million is going to have a lot more well resourced "loud voices" and special interest groups arguing their case than a nation of 25 or 60 million.

Up until the 1980's the USA was largely like this as well, but then President Reagan gutted the fairness doctrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairness_Doctrine) and the media (fox, etc.) started to spin out of control. The result now is that people on the right are convinced that all democrats want to steal their guns(tm), and people on the far left and far right eating up weird propaganda hit pieces about quite ordinary politicians. We now have a complete breakdown of a large part of the population's ability to tell when something is coming from a reliable source. I've heard it hypothesized that older generations are particularly susceptible to media spin, as they grew up in a time before the fairness doctrine was repealed.
http://www.salon.com/2015/08/02/this_is_how_the_clowns_took_over_the_sad_history_leading_to_the_spectacle_of_a_fox_news_debate_starring_front_runner_donald_trump/

Exactly. Thank you. Between the loss of the fairness doctrine, and the passage of the telecommunications act of 1996, the objectivity of large, professional news sources has degraded to an appalling degree. Frequent and pervasive accusations (by muck-raking radio personalities) of liberal media bias over three decades have baited professional news organizations into presenting 'balance' rather than truth. This means crackpots with no credentials are often given equal air time as legit experts. This is not the path to truth - it's the path to confusion, and it cedes control to the people who pay the crackpots.

Furthermore, loaded phrasing, crafted by people like frank luntz and spread via Grover norquidst's weekly meetings also baited regular news orgs into using conservative language ( e.g. rather than tax policy we speak of tax relief (as if it's an affliction) ... rather than supporting policies which protect our rights to clean water, we are 'oppressed by a nanny state' ...rather than estate tax we talk of death tax... rather than the ACA it's Obamacare. Even Obama used 'Obamacare').

Yes, the dialogue we see in media is very much the result of an organized, highly coordinated effort by a handful of very wealthy people. The end result is that the republican base is distracted into thinking their enemies are liberals. Meanwhile, corporate ceos and neocons are taking over our government. It should make us all irate , yet some people continue to regurgitate this propaganda.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2017, 06:51:25 AM by Malaysia41 »
last one to panic wins! (confession: I am kinda freakin' out a bit right now because the GOP is a cult and most of my family are card carrying members. It sucks.)

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Malaysia41

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #894 on: January 09, 2017, 06:38:41 AM »
I recommend reading David Brock. He was a journalist at the heritage foundation and at the very right wing Washington Times. After 10 years of creating biased propaganda against Anita hill and the clintons, his conscience and integrity kicked in. Since then, he has written oodles exposing what he calls the Republican noise machine.

Another example of language ( sorry I know it's a bit off topic ): think of what anti Clinton people sometimes say : "I don't want dynasties!"

Okay - if that's the case, then you should support an estate tax that applies to only the top .1 - .5% of estates. Bingo: Dynasty problem kept in check. Unfortunately, I fear some of us are too entrenched in the visceral injustice of a death tax that even this sort of argument won't land. And THIS is what we're up against. Language framing that blocks honest and objective dialogue.

Nevertheless I'm trying to reach my trumpeter family members. Civil Asset Forfeiture is the issue I've chosen.  the government is brazenly looting the private property of innocent people. It's a clear 4th amendment violation. If I can't convince them of this - I fear all hope is lost and we may be looking at civil war.... well, that is if progressives grow some spines. I don't have much hope for that. So maybe we'll have to wait until the right realizes their rights are gone. Then it'll be revolution.


« Last Edit: January 09, 2017, 08:13:27 AM by Malaysia41 »
last one to panic wins! (confession: I am kinda freakin' out a bit right now because the GOP is a cult and most of my family are card carrying members. It sucks.)

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nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #895 on: January 09, 2017, 06:45:53 AM »
What irks me is that so few understand the differences between being "balanced" and being "objective".

Too many news outlets are so careful of seeming "Balanced" that they believe the correct response is always to give near-equal time to dissenting opinions, regardless of whether that's objectively reasonable or factually accurate. THe result is that fringe ideas and conspiracy theories are frequently given air time even when thoroughly debunked or widely disputed.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #896 on: January 09, 2017, 08:04:18 AM »
From a UK point of view, one of the astonishing things about USA politics is that no-one seems to agree on the facts.  In the UK, we generally agree on the facts and then the dispute is about the interpretation and what action to take.  If you can't even agree on the facts, there is no hope for a rational discussion.  But in the US there also seems to be no interest in facts, or a deliberate omission of the facts, or a distorted presentation of the facts, which is the start of a death spiral for democracy.
Did you miss brexit?
"People have had quite enough of experts"
"75 Million Turks are about to come to the UK once Turkey joins the EU"
"350 Million for the NHS per week"
An agriculture minister who thinks farming has been around as long as humans have.
...
Regrettably the UK is fully on board the post truth politics train

Malaysia41

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #897 on: January 09, 2017, 08:10:28 AM »
What irks me is that so few understand the differences between being "balanced" and being "objective".

Too many news outlets are so careful of seeming "Balanced" that they believe the correct response is always to give near-equal time to dissenting opinions, regardless of whether that's objectively reasonable or factually accurate. THe result is that fringe ideas and conspiracy theories are frequently given air time even when thoroughly debunked or widely disputed.

EXACTLY.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #898 on: January 09, 2017, 09:50:26 AM »
More "realistic impacts of a Trump presidency":

The federal week in review:
1. Trump fires all Ambassadors and Special Envoys, ordering them out by inauguration day.
2. House brings back the Holman rule allowing them to reduce an individual civil service, SES positions, or political appointee's salary to $1, effectively firing them by amendment to any piece of legislation. We now know why they wanted names and positions of people in Energy and State.
3. Senate schedules 6 simultaneous hearings on cabinet nominees and triple-books those hearings with Trump's first press conference in months and an ACA budget vote, effectively preventing any concentrated coverage or protest.
4. House GOP expressly forbids the Congressional Budget Office from reporting or tracking ANY costs related to the repeal of the ACA.
5. Trump continues to throw the intelligence community under the bus to protect Putin, despite the growing mountain of evidence that the Russians deliberately interfered in our election.
6. Trump breaks a central campaign promise to make Mexico pay for the wall by asking Congress (in other words, us, the taxpayers) to pay for it.
7. Trump threatens Toyota over a new plant that was never coming to the US nor will take jobs out of the US.
8. House passes the REINS act, giving them veto power over any rules enacted by any federal agency or department--for example, FDA or EPA bans a drug or pesticide, Congress can overrule based on lobbyists not science. Don't like that endangered species designation, Congress kills it.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #899 on: January 09, 2017, 10:07:10 AM »
More "realistic impacts of a Trump presidency":

The federal week in review:
1. Trump fires all Ambassadors and Special Envoys, ordering them out by inauguration day.
2. House brings back the Holman rule allowing them to reduce an individual civil service, SES positions, or political appointee's salary to $1, effectively firing them by amendment to any piece of legislation. We now know why they wanted names and positions of people in Energy and State.
3. Senate schedules 6 simultaneous hearings on cabinet nominees and triple-books those hearings with Trump's first press conference in months and an ACA budget vote, effectively preventing any concentrated coverage or protest.
4. House GOP expressly forbids the Congressional Budget Office from reporting or tracking ANY costs related to the repeal of the ACA.
5. Trump continues to throw the intelligence community under the bus to protect Putin, despite the growing mountain of evidence that the Russians deliberately interfered in our election.
6. Trump breaks a central campaign promise to make Mexico pay for the wall by asking Congress (in other words, us, the taxpayers) to pay for it.
7. Trump threatens Toyota over a new plant that was never coming to the US nor will take jobs out of the US.
8. House passes the REINS act, giving them veto power over any rules enacted by any federal agency or department--for example, FDA or EPA bans a drug or pesticide, Congress can overrule based on lobbyists not science. Don't like that endangered species designation, Congress kills it.

Bill introduced by Todd Rokita (R) of Indiana that removes all civil service protections from future new hires. (different than Holman rule)  Including but not limited to
•Eliminate an employee’s right to representation at the worksite by no longer allowing union representatives to resolve disputes, address issues of discrimination or retaliation, or propose improvements in the workplace during the workday.
•Allow political appointees to demote career executives and reduce their pay without cause.

so political appointees can clear house of all the people who know what they are doing over ideological differences.