Author Topic: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?  (Read 241106 times)

kayvent

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #750 on: December 28, 2016, 11:19:54 AM »
There were over 400 laws passed by GOP leadership restricting women's bodily autonomy is the last year or two.  None restricting men.

Can you name one or two?

Here's one: http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2016/12/what_does_ohios_new_20-week_ab.html

They tried to pass a heartbeat bill, but Kasich vetoed that because they want to use this to challenge the viability test in Roe v. Wade first. Then they'll pass the heartbeat bill.

And if you're going to make the argument that it's about fetal rights, then you can just stop right there. That's just spouting nonsense.

How does that exclusively affect women? Men can be pregnant too and that law does affect pregnant men to the same degree as pregnant women.

sol

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #751 on: December 28, 2016, 11:23:47 AM »
Men can be pregnant too and that law does affect pregnant men to the same degree as pregnant women.

Kayvent is clearly an alien visitor to our world, and still unclear on the details of human reproduction.

kayvent

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #752 on: December 28, 2016, 11:55:54 AM »
Men can be pregnant too and that law does affect pregnant men to the same degree as pregnant women.

Kayvent is clearly an alien visitor to our world, and still unclear on the details of human reproduction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_pregnancy

NoStacheOhio

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #753 on: December 28, 2016, 12:12:04 PM »
Men can be pregnant too and that law does affect pregnant men to the same degree as pregnant women.

Kayvent is clearly an alien visitor to our world, and still unclear on the details of human reproduction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_pregnancy

Are you fucking kidding me?
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/digging-out-of-a-hole/

sol

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #754 on: December 28, 2016, 12:21:00 PM »
Kayvent seems to be unconcerned about conservatives infringing the rights of women, because conservatives have always been so supportive of the rights of the transgendered.  It's a weird world we live in, where this is the right's defense of attacking a woman's bodily autonomy.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2016, 01:45:46 PM by sol »

Gin1984

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #755 on: December 28, 2016, 12:40:29 PM »
Kayvent seems to be unconcerned about conservatives infringing the rights of women, because conservatives have anyway been so supportive of the rights of the transgendered.  It's a weird world we live in, where this is the right's defense of attacking a woman's bodily autonomy.
Sol, it is actually not uncommon to find extreme sexism and attacks towards feminism from trans communities and their allies.  Keep in mind, many feminist push the idea that there is nothing or very little biologically different about the sexes (abilitywise) and most of gender is sociological.  That does not mesh well with the idea that you are of different gender than your sex. 
I have found more anti-choice statements from the trans community than any other group outside of extreme conservatives.  It was quite jarring.

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jim555

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #756 on: December 28, 2016, 01:32:51 PM »
The Donald just tweeted - Thanks Donald! (about consumer confidence numbers)
Just screams stable minded.  Gonna be a fun 2017.

Quidnon?

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #757 on: December 28, 2016, 02:07:40 PM »

+1. I'm really curious about Q's motivations and wants here. Repeal ACA, OK. Then what? If Quidnon? were in charge of American healthcare policy, what would that system look like?

Make a new thread, and send me a link, I'll be happy to add details.  But my perspectives on the ACA are way off topic for this thread.
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
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Quidnon?

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #758 on: December 28, 2016, 02:13:22 PM »
From my perspective, the entire country has been getting more and more conservative over the past decade as the right wing wins every consecutive battle with the help of a compliant President, but that narrative doesn't play well with the base so they have to pretend the liberals are taking over instead.

I agree completely with the above bolded portion, but I'd say that it's only been picking up speed during the past decade.  I think Obama would have lost if the Republicans had fielded a better candidate at the time, but they weren't ready for a Ron Paul.  I suspect that the Millineal generation isn't as liberal in their hearts as they might appear in public, at least not on all subjects.  As we now know, the new "alt-right" position has been growing in quiet, and didn't even tell the exit pollsters the truth of their vote.
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
~ Frederic Bastiat

kayvent

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #759 on: December 28, 2016, 02:53:29 PM »
Kayvent seems to be unconcerned about conservatives infringing the rights of women, because conservatives have always been so supportive of the rights of the transgendered.  It's a weird world we live in, where this is the right's defense of attacking a woman's bodily autonomy.

Follow the train of conversation please. I asked for an example of a piece of legislation that targeted only women. The given news article talked about something that affected pregnant men seeking abortions too.

Gin1984

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #760 on: December 28, 2016, 02:56:10 PM »
Kayvent seems to be unconcerned about conservatives infringing the rights of women, because conservatives have always been so supportive of the rights of the transgendered.  It's a weird world we live in, where this is the right's defense of attacking a woman's bodily autonomy.

Follow the train of conversation please. I asked for an example of a piece of legislation that targeted only women. The given news article talked about something that affected pregnant men seeking abortions too.
Women was being used to talk about female of reproductive age.  Better?  Do I have to refer to my biological sex instead of a term most people understand?  And frankly, to the GOP those transmen are women.

KBecks

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #761 on: December 28, 2016, 03:10:23 PM »

I think that the way Trump's statements/views change depending on who he's talking to makes him an even bigger piece of shit. So yeah, we don't know what he's going to do, which is why people are scared.
You aren't really scared of Trump.

No, I'm not scared of Trump. I'm white, male, straight and middle class. But unlike many who voted for him, I am my brother's keeper.

How exactly will being white, straight or middle class make you braver in this situation? He's not advocated for hunting down gays, comparing Clinton v Trump to Obama v Romney he won because of minorities, and I think he'd be as awful for male body ownership as women.
There were over 400 laws passed by GOP leadership restricting women's bodily autonomy is the last year or two.  None restricting men.  I am literally in the process of getting my passport to be able to go to Canada because I am pregnant and for my safety, I am better off out of the USA.  A judge ordered a woman if florida a few years back to be tied to a bed because she wanted a second option on bed rest.  Which, btw, there is no medical/scientific evidence that bed rest helps a fetus.  Rest and lack of stress help, but not bed rest specifically.  And guess what, she still lost the fetus.  Huh, who would have thought that tying a woman to bed against her wishes might increase her stress level.

Need a story link to this.  Was the woman in prison?

Gin1984

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #762 on: December 28, 2016, 03:40:03 PM »

I think that the way Trump's statements/views change depending on who he's talking to makes him an even bigger piece of shit. So yeah, we don't know what he's going to do, which is why people are scared.
You aren't really scared of Trump.

No, I'm not scared of Trump. I'm white, male, straight and middle class. But unlike many who voted for him, I am my brother's keeper.

How exactly will being white, straight or middle class make you braver in this situation? He's not advocated for hunting down gays, comparing Clinton v Trump to Obama v Romney he won because of minorities, and I think he'd be as awful for male body ownership as women.
There were over 400 laws passed by GOP leadership restricting women's bodily autonomy is the last year or two.  None restricting men.  I am literally in the process of getting my passport to be able to go to Canada because I am pregnant and for my safety, I am better off out of the USA.  A judge ordered a woman if florida a few years back to be tied to a bed because she wanted a second option on bed rest.  Which, btw, there is no medical/scientific evidence that bed rest helps a fetus.  Rest and lack of stress help, but not bed rest specifically.  And guess what, she still lost the fetus.  Huh, who would have thought that tying a woman to bed against her wishes might increase her stress level.

Need a story link to this.  Was the woman in prison?
[/quote]
She was not: http://abcnews.go.com/Health/florida-court-orders-pregnant-woman-bed-rest-medical/story?id=9561460

lbmustache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #763 on: December 28, 2016, 04:05:08 PM »
From my perspective, the entire country has been getting more and more conservative over the past decade as the right wing wins every consecutive battle with the help of a compliant President, but that narrative doesn't play well with the base so they have to pretend the liberals are taking over instead.

I agree completely with the above bolded portion, but I'd say that it's only been picking up speed during the past decade.  I think Obama would have lost if the Republicans had fielded a better candidate at the time, but they weren't ready for a Ron Paul.  I suspect that the Millineal generation isn't as liberal in their hearts as they might appear in public, at least not on all subjects.  As we now know, the new "alt-right" position has been growing in quiet, and didn't even tell the exit pollsters the truth of their vote.

Interestingly, arguments go both ways on this - depending on what side of the fence you are on. Meaning liberals are quick to say America is becoming more conservative and vice versa. A quick google search for this topic seems to go about 50-50 ("america is becoming more liberal" / "america is becoming more conservative").

I was under the impression that most polls actually have a majority of Americans more liberal-leaning in terms of policies: same-sex marriage, marijuana, raising the minimum wage - not necessarily to $15 though - and a few more, even though they might not personally identify as liberal or democratic. We have more POC and women in politics (aside from Trump's cabinet ha) and there seems to be a lot more discussion of race and various issues (for better or for worse).

North Carolina would be a good example - a Democratic governor won (and yes, I know that the republicans are $%^#%# around with that) in a very Republican state.

The general pattern of educated people leaning more liberal seems to hold true regardless of where or what we are looking at.

I teach college and high school in both liberal and conservative areas - and I've noticed that both groups of students talk about things I never even thought about a decade ago. I grew up in one of the most liberal, diverse, "gayest cities" - this is an actual title given to us by news sources like USA Today - in America. I never thought about feminism, politics, etc. when I was in HS and no one ever talked about it at lunch time. Now I have kids asking me about feminism and giving speeches about police brutality and global warming. I of course have conservative students who do the same for their own topics, like the 2nd amendment (lol), but it seems to me that if younger people aren't more liberal, they are at the very least more aware of things.

Final thing, I think the democrats in general have been very quick to roll over and are not as aggressive as republicans (specifically tea partiers). See voting rights, intimidation, etc. The tea partiers were also VERY VOCAL. Not arguing that there isn't corruption etc. with the dems, because there is. Go back to my N.C. example (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/12/north-carolina-republicans-make-brazen-bid-permanent-power-after-losing-governors-r) - I can't fathom in a million years a Democratic legislature pulling something like this. (I could be wrong.)

Quite frankly the KKK and co have always been a part of America. They just got a fancy new name ("alt-right"), got more media-savvy, got some people who know how to carry a conversation normally (rather than the stereotypical raving lunatic), and got a white man in office who won't denounce them. I personally don't forsee them rising up and amassing this huge stronghold.

dragoncar

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #764 on: December 28, 2016, 04:26:57 PM »
I thought it was agreed we are getting more divided.  So there are some getting more liberal and some getting more conservative.  I'm not sure if an "average" is meaningful.

Overall, I'd agree we are getting more socially liberal.  Seems like we are getting more fiscally conservative.  But none of this is based on actual polls -- any anecdotal remarks here will be skewed based on your location and social circle, no?

Quidnon?

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #765 on: December 28, 2016, 04:48:37 PM »

Quite frankly the KKK and co have always been a part of America. They just got a fancy new name ("alt-right"), got more media-savvy, got some people who know how to carry a conversation normally (rather than the stereotypical raving lunatic), and got a white man in office who won't denounce them. I personally don't forsee them rising up and amassing this huge stronghold.

The alt-right and the KKK are not remotely the same thing.
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
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accolay

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #766 on: December 28, 2016, 05:43:20 PM »

I think that the way Trump's statements/views change depending on who he's talking to makes him an even bigger piece of shit. So yeah, we don't know what he's going to do, which is why people are scared.
You aren't really scared of Trump.

No, I'm not scared of Trump. I'm white, male, straight and middle class. But unlike many who voted for him, I am my brother's keeper.

How exactly will being white, straight or middle class make you braver in this situation? He's not advocated for hunting down gays, comparing Clinton v Trump to Obama v Romney he won because of minorities, and I think he'd be as awful for male body ownership as women.

If you don't know that being white, male, straight and middle class will benefit a person in the United States, vs being say, black, female, gay and poor, I cannot help you understand.

Kris

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #767 on: December 28, 2016, 05:56:04 PM »

+1. I'm really curious about Q's motivations and wants here. Repeal ACA, OK. Then what? If Quidnon? were in charge of American healthcare policy, what would that system look like?

Make a new thread, and send me a link, I'll be happy to add details.  But my perspectives on the ACA are way off topic for this thread.

Not so off topic. Trump has said he would completely repeal the ACA. Which you said you want. A complete repeal. So, per the topic or this thread, that is a "realistic impact" of a Trump presidency.

I asked you this above for clarification,  which you haven't responded to yet:

Lifetime caps for care were outlawed under Obamacareóbut repeal would roll that back, even for people with employer-based coverage.  You're good with that?

How about the fact that repeal will mean insurers can start denying people with preexisting conditions again? That's good, too?

And kids won't be able to stay on their parents' policy until 26 anymore. That's cool with you?
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

Quidnon?

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #768 on: December 28, 2016, 06:13:08 PM »

+1. I'm really curious about Q's motivations and wants here. Repeal ACA, OK. Then what? If Quidnon? were in charge of American healthcare policy, what would that system look like?

Make a new thread, and send me a link, I'll be happy to add details.  But my perspectives on the ACA are way off topic for this thread.

Not so off topic. Trump has said he would completely repeal the ACA. Which you said you want. A complete repeal. So, per the topic or this thread, that is a "realistic impact" of a Trump presidency.

He is doing it for different reasons, and my reasons are complex.  Still will be off topic if we dive down this hole.

Quote

I asked you this above for clarification,  which you haven't responded to yet:

Lifetime caps for care were outlawed under Obamacareóbut repeal would roll that back, even for people with employer-based coverage.  You're good with that?


Yes, so long as the lifetime cap is well disclosed.

Quote

How about the fact that repeal will mean insurers can start denying people with preexisting conditions again? That's good, too?


Yes, so long as there is an alternative.  There always has been, so I have no reason to assume that will be different now.

Quote

And kids won't be able to stay on their parents' policy until 26 anymore. That's cool with you?

Seriously?  Do you really think that is a deal breaker?  That's more of a bug than a feature anyway, and I believe that it only holds true if the parents can still claim them as dependents on their tax returns anyway, which implies they are living at home or full time students.  There was a medical plan available for students when I went to school, that was both cheap and subsidized for needs based students.  The ACA didn't really solve any unsolvable issues, mostly reduced the alternative options for individuals who were on the long tail of the distribution curve.  I'd say that half the people on this forum could do the same thing I stated above, with the self-insured up to a very high deductible amount, with very minimal risk of breaking their retirement plans (which cancer or an organ transplant is likely to do regardless) and very cheaply overall.  There are many, many different ways to reduce your individual health/expense risks, as well as to arrange for health care services, than the way the ACA attempts to do it for everyone; but now most of those alternatives are functionally illegal, pushed out of the market of choices by the individual & corporate mandates, as well as the increased regulations upon actual insurance companies.
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
~ Frederic Bastiat

accolay

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #769 on: December 28, 2016, 06:15:59 PM »
Here is a more up-to-date graph.
http://www.dailydot.com/layer8/number-of-executive-orders-per-president/

I did not verify the data in the graph. Please post any differing stats with sources so we can discuss.

It is just data. Nothing to see here. It only shows Quidnon is LYING. In fact, no one has ever lied in blog postings more than Quidnon. Hey, saying things where the data clearly shows I am full of it is kind of fun.I think you all ought to try it.

Quidnon...I would love to get your take on that relating to your statement about Obama abusing presidential power.

I always find it interesting that we have this here "internet" thing with vast amounts of data, but so many are unable to use a simple Google search to see if the talking points they are parroting have validity. I mean, a majority have the ability to look this shit up on their cell phones regardless of their physical location. But I suppose that it's just "The Media" lying again pushing their socialist agenda. Why trust a source if it doesn't back up your world view?

As for Democrats- I'm not registered, but I vote that way because...what's the alternative? They do not satisfy my need for revenge. I am tired of the high ground. I want them to punch out some teeth. Maybe the only way for the right to start using facts and science and shit are for the Left to push out an agenda of disinformation? It would only make sense in this Bizarro World.

But they wont. They'll continue to individually craft messages, bumble around, winning battles but losing the war.

Kris

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #770 on: December 28, 2016, 06:20:53 PM »

+1. I'm really curious about Q's motivations and wants here. Repeal ACA, OK. Then what? If Quidnon? were in charge of American healthcare policy, what would that system look like?

Make a new thread, and send me a link, I'll be happy to add details.  But my perspectives on the ACA are way off topic for this thread.

Not so off topic. Trump has said he would completely repeal the ACA. Which you said you want. A complete repeal. So, per the topic or this thread, that is a "realistic impact" of a Trump presidency.

He is doing it for different reasons, and my reasons are complex.  Still will be off topic if we dive down this hole.

Quote

I asked you this above for clarification,  which you haven't responded to yet:

Lifetime caps for care were outlawed under Obamacareóbut repeal would roll that back, even for people with employer-based coverage.  You're good with that?


Yes, so long as the lifetime cap is well disclosed.

Quote

How about the fact that repeal will mean insurers can start denying people with preexisting conditions again? That's good, too?


Yes, so long as there is an alternative.  There always has been, so I have no reason to assume that will be different now.

Quote

And kids won't be able to stay on their parents' policy until 26 anymore. That's cool with you?

Seriously?  Do you really think that is a deal breaker?  That's more of a bug than a feature anyway, and I believe that it only holds true if the parents can still claim them as dependents on their tax returns anyway, which implies they are living at home or full time students.  There was a medical plan available for students when I went to school, that was both cheap and subsidized for needs based students.  The ACA didn't really solve any unsolvable issues, mostly reduced the alternative options for individuals who were on the long tail of the distribution curve.  I'd say that half the people on this forum could do the same thing I stated above, with the self-insured up to a very high deductible amount, with very minimal risk of breaking their retirement plans (which cancer or an organ transplant is likely to do regardless) and very cheaply overall.  There are many, many different ways to reduce your individual health/expense risks, as well as to arrange for health care services, than the way the ACA attempts to do it for everyone; but now most of those alternatives are functionally illegal, pushed out of the market of choices by the individual & corporate mandates, as well as the increased regulations upon actual insurance companies.

What is the alternative for people with preexisting conditions that there "always has been"?

Also, no, you are wrong about the details of the current age-26 cap.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2016, 06:22:46 PM by Kris »
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

Gin1984

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #771 on: December 28, 2016, 06:28:35 PM »

+1. I'm really curious about Q's motivations and wants here. Repeal ACA, OK. Then what? If Quidnon? were in charge of American healthcare policy, what would that system look like?

Make a new thread, and send me a link, I'll be happy to add details.  But my perspectives on the ACA are way off topic for this thread.

Not so off topic. Trump has said he would completely repeal the ACA. Which you said you want. A complete repeal. So, per the topic or this thread, that is a "realistic impact" of a Trump presidency.

He is doing it for different reasons, and my reasons are complex.  Still will be off topic if we dive down this hole.

Quote

I asked you this above for clarification,  which you haven't responded to yet:

Lifetime caps for care were outlawed under Obamacareóbut repeal would roll that back, even for people with employer-based coverage.  You're good with that?


Yes, so long as the lifetime cap is well disclosed.

Quote

How about the fact that repeal will mean insurers can start denying people with preexisting conditions again? That's good, too?


Yes, so long as there is an alternative.  There always has been, so I have no reason to assume that will be different now.

Quote

And kids won't be able to stay on their parents' policy until 26 anymore. That's cool with you?

Seriously?  Do you really think that is a deal breaker?  That's more of a bug than a feature anyway, and I believe that it only holds true if the parents can still claim them as dependents on their tax returns anyway, which implies they are living at home or full time students.  There was a medical plan available for students when I went to school, that was both cheap and subsidized for needs based students.  The ACA didn't really solve any unsolvable issues, mostly reduced the alternative options for individuals who were on the long tail of the distribution curve.  I'd say that half the people on this forum could do the same thing I stated above, with the self-insured up to a very high deductible amount, with very minimal risk of breaking their retirement plans (which cancer or an organ transplant is likely to do regardless) and very cheaply overall.  There are many, many different ways to reduce your individual health/expense risks, as well as to arrange for health care services, than the way the ACA attempts to do it for everyone; but now most of those alternatives are functionally illegal, pushed out of the market of choices by the individual & corporate mandates, as well as the increased regulations upon actual insurance companies.
I had a pre-existing condition when I aged off my mom's plan at age 24. I could find NO coverage for any amount of money on private market.  I therefore used COBRA but I would have been screwed once that was over.  My fiancť picked a grad school based on spousal coverage, which not all had and we got married early for insurance.  What alternatives do you think I had?  Please, do tell? 

accolay

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #772 on: December 28, 2016, 06:28:57 PM »
Quote
How about the fact that repeal will mean insurers can start denying people with preexisting conditions again? That's good, too?
Yes, so long as there is an alternative.  There always has been, so I have no reason to assume that will be different now.

What alternative would that be? Going bankrupt to pay medical bills? Deciding whether to pay for medication or groceries? People getting divorced so one spouse doesn't have to go broke too? "Don't get sick! and if you do get sick, die quickly!"'

Are you just trolling this thread, or do you actually believe what you're saying?

Quidnon?

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #773 on: December 28, 2016, 06:39:53 PM »

What is the alternative for people with preexisting conditions that there "always has been"?

There were several, actually.  Most states had "high risk" insurance pools, subsidized by the state but with 'shall issue' rules for insurance policies, my mother used one for a few years between employer sponsored plans, which almost always expire limitations upon pre-existing conditions.  The catastrophic plans I mentioned before could be used to solve for this, in several ways; but most typically by solving a "gap", for the first several years of the policy, the pre-existing condition would not be covered, but eventually that condition ages out.  There are/were health care cost sharing groups such as Samaritan, MediShare & LibertyShare; all of which still have limitations on pre-existing conditions that expire after several years of membership, allowing the "premiums" to be significantly cheaper.  Their legal ability to "discriminate" against high risk lifestyles also helps lower the costs significantly.  The main reason that such limitations ever existed was to permit the policies to be offered cheaper, by limiting the risks involved in exactly what the ACA requires by law; the asymmetric information problem that occurs when a person decides to roll the dice for a few years, and ends up with such a "pre-existing condition".  It's not that the insurance companies can't calculate for any condition going forward, it's that they can't protect the risk pool from sudden cost shocks from new members who know they need more care sooner than later than they would admit.  Since true insurance is a contract to limit personal risks, allowing a pre-existing condition limitation to time out after 3 or 5 years is a legitimate solution that is no longer permitted by the ACA.
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
~ Frederic Bastiat

Quidnon?

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #774 on: December 28, 2016, 06:41:23 PM »
Quote
How about the fact that repeal will mean insurers can start denying people with preexisting conditions again? That's good, too?
Yes, so long as there is an alternative.  There always has been, so I have no reason to assume that will be different now.

What alternative would that be? Going bankrupt to pay medical bills? Deciding whether to pay for medication or groceries? People getting divorced so one spouse doesn't have to go broke too? "Don't get sick! and if you do get sick, die quickly!"'

Are you just trolling this thread, or do you actually believe what you're saying?

I'm not trolling.  I already mentioned this was going to be off topic.
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
~ Frederic Bastiat

Quidnon?

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #775 on: December 28, 2016, 06:44:37 PM »

I had a pre-existing condition when I aged off my mom's plan at age 24. I could find NO coverage for any amount of money on private market.  I therefore used COBRA but I would have been screwed once that was over. My fiancť picked a grad school based on spousal coverage, which not all had and we got married early for insurance.  What alternatives do you think I had?  Please, do tell?

That actually sounds like a pretty smooth solution, and one that I've never heard of before.
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
~ Frederic Bastiat

accolay

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #776 on: December 28, 2016, 07:04:38 PM »
Quote
How about the fact that repeal will mean insurers can start denying people with preexisting conditions again? That's good, too?
Yes, so long as there is an alternative.  There always has been, so I have no reason to assume that will be different now.

What alternative would that be? Going bankrupt to pay medical bills? Deciding whether to pay for medication or groceries? People getting divorced so one spouse doesn't have to go broke too? "Don't get sick! and if you do get sick, die quickly!"'

Are you just trolling this thread, or do you actually believe what you're saying?

I'm not trolling.  I already mentioned this was going to be off topic.

If the cost is prohibitively expensive, it is not an alternative. I'll stand by my "medications or groceries" statement, because that's what happened.

I'm not sure what else I can call it but trolling when an argument based on a false or inaccurate statements continues after being presented with fact.

There are no REAL alternatives to the ACA that would overwhelmingly benefit our country besides a single payer system. There has been no alternative presented that would benefit everyone despite six years of trolling from the right despite all the rhetoric.

Beyond that, I'm genuinely interested in your take on Obama's abuses of executive power after articles presented. What say you?

radram

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #777 on: December 28, 2016, 07:17:33 PM »
Here is a more up-to-date graph.
http://www.dailydot.com/layer8/number-of-executive-orders-per-president/

I did not verify the data in the graph. Please post any differing stats with sources so we can discuss.

It is just data. Nothing to see here. It only shows Quidnon is LYING. In fact, no one has ever lied in blog postings more than Quidnon. Hey, saying things where the data clearly shows I am full of it is kind of fun.I think you all ought to try it.

Quidnon...I would love to get your take on that relating to your statement about Obama abusing presidential power.

I always find it interesting that we have this here "internet" thing with vast amounts of data, but so many are unable to use a simple Google search to see if the talking points they are parroting have validity. I mean, a majority have the ability to look this shit up on their cell phones regardless of their physical location. But I suppose that it's just "The Media" lying again pushing their socialist agenda. Why trust a source if it doesn't back up your world view?

As for Democrats- I'm not registered, but I vote that way because...what's the alternative? They do not satisfy my need for revenge. I am tired of the high ground. I want them to punch out some teeth. Maybe the only way for the right to start using facts and science and shit are for the Left to push out an agenda of disinformation? It would only make sense in this Bizarro World.

But they wont. They'll continue to individually craft messages, bumble around, winning battles but losing the war.

My guess is there will be no response from quidnon. I do not think it was anything he read or saw. I truly believe he was LYING when he said:

"Obama has exercised more "extra-constitutional" power, mostly via "executive orders", than all of his predecessors combined."

He read it nowhere. He just made it up. I believe there to be NO reputable source that said this. Please prove me wrong.  Let me guess: This off topic, right quidnon?






sol

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #778 on: December 28, 2016, 07:18:13 PM »
There are no REAL alternatives to the ACA that would overwhelmingly benefit our country besides a single payer system. There has been no alternative presented that would benefit everyone despite six years of trolling from the right despite all the rhetoric.

I think your mistake is in your original assumption, which is that Republicans want Americans to have decent and affordable health insurance.  I think the past few years have proved me out on this one. 

They don't care if people have insurance, or get medical care, as long as the profit margins continue to climb for the industries that fund their political campaigns.  This isn't about making things better for American citizens, it's about making things better for American corporations at the expense of American citizens.

So I expect them to symbolically repeal the ACA, then eventually get around to instituting some sort of plan that provides worse coverage and worse care at a higher price, because that's what keeps profit margins the highest.  Maybe they'll call it "vouchers" and use taxpayer dollars to subsidize private insurance.  Maybe they'll end up keeping the individual mandate, since that is profitable for insurers.  Maybe they'll remove the restrictions that allow insurers to offer worthless insurance that doesn't cover anything.  They certainly won't let medicare negotiate drug prices, that would totally cut into profit margins.  I'm pretty sure they'll find a way to allow insurers to deny coverage to people with pre-existing conditions again, because those people are profit sinks. 

The GOP is the party of corporate interests.  They will only do what they think benefits corporations.  They don't care about Americans, just American businesses.

Quidnon?

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #779 on: December 28, 2016, 07:51:22 PM »
Quote
How about the fact that repeal will mean insurers can start denying people with preexisting conditions again? That's good, too?
Yes, so long as there is an alternative.  There always has been, so I have no reason to assume that will be different now.

What alternative would that be? Going bankrupt to pay medical bills? Deciding whether to pay for medication or groceries? People getting divorced so one spouse doesn't have to go broke too? "Don't get sick! and if you do get sick, die quickly!"'

Are you just trolling this thread, or do you actually believe what you're saying?

I'm not trolling.  I already mentioned this was going to be off topic.

If the cost is prohibitively expensive, it is not an alternative. I'll stand by my "medications or groceries" statement, because that's what happened.

Maybe to you.
Quote

I'm not sure what else I can call it but trolling when an argument based on a false or inaccurate statements continues after being presented with fact.


I actually haven't made an argument, only stated my opinions so far.  What inaccurate statements do you refer to? 

Quote

There are no REAL alternatives to the ACA that would overwhelmingly benefit our country besides a single payer system. There has been no alternative presented that would benefit everyone despite six years of trolling from the right despite all the rhetoric.


I never attempted to benefit everyone.  I consider that to be likely impossible.  People's situations are too varied for a fixed set of rules to work out well for everyone.

Quote

Beyond that, I'm genuinely interested in your take on Obama's abuses of executive power after articles presented. What say you?

I didn't read any articles that may have been linked here, but generally speaking I don't consider Obama's abuses to be worthy of my time.  All presidents abuse the office; in different ways and to arguably different degrees, but they all have done it.
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
~ Frederic Bastiat

Quidnon?

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #780 on: December 28, 2016, 08:07:14 PM »

My guess is there will be no response from quidnon. I do not think it was anything he read or saw. I truly believe he was LYING when he said:

"Obama has exercised more "extra-constitutional" power, mostly via "executive orders", than all of his predecessors combined."

He read it nowhere. He just made it up. I believe there to be NO reputable source that said this. Please prove me wrong.  Let me guess: This off topic, right quidnon?

You are trying to goad me into a defensive reply, but I'm not that emotional.  I didn't claim that Obama wrote more executive orders, but that he has done more more actions outside the limitations of the constitutional parameters of the office than his predecessors.  And I don't consider ANY sources to be trustworthy, so I will cite whatever I please.  I pulled that part about "combined" from memory, but let's see if google can help me out here...

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/428882/obama-violate-constitution-top-ten-2015

Just one year.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/waynecrews/2016/01/10/this-inventory-of-obamas-dozens-of-executive-actions-frames-his-final-state-of-the-union-address/#4016a30041bc

http://www.infowars.com/study-obama-has-issued-more-restrictive-executive-orders-than-past-six-administrations/

I probably can't support my claim that he has done it more than ALL of his predecessors, because that would require an examination of every president's actions and some kind of common ground on what should be considered unconstitutional, which we probably don't agree upon.  But nor do I care much to have that debate, because it's my definition of unconstitutional that I'm using.  This research took 5 minutes or less, so I imagine I could do better if I gave a damn, but I don't.  I don't expect to change anyone's mind anyway.
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
~ Frederic Bastiat

accolay

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #781 on: December 28, 2016, 08:07:25 PM »
There are no REAL alternatives to the ACA that would overwhelmingly benefit our country besides a single payer system. There has been no alternative presented that would benefit everyone despite six years of trolling from the right despite all the rhetoric.

I think your mistake is in your original assumption, which is that Republicans want Americans to have decent and affordable health insurance.  I think the past few years have proved me out on this one. 

They don't care if people have insurance, or get medical care, as long as the profit margins continue to climb for the industries that fund their political campaigns.  This isn't about making things better for American citizens, it's about making things better for American corporations at the expense of American citizens.

So I expect them to symbolically repeal the ACA, then eventually get around to instituting some sort of plan that provides worse coverage and worse care at a higher price, because that's what keeps profit margins the highest.  Maybe they'll call it "vouchers" and use taxpayer dollars to subsidize private insurance.  Maybe they'll end up keeping the individual mandate, since that is profitable for insurers.  Maybe they'll remove the restrictions that allow insurers to offer worthless insurance that doesn't cover anything.  They certainly won't let medicare negotiate drug prices, that would totally cut into profit margins.  I'm pretty sure they'll find a way to allow insurers to deny coverage to people with pre-existing conditions again, because those people are profit sinks. 

The GOP is the party of corporate interests.  They will only do what they think benefits corporations.  They don't care about Americans, just American businesses.

And I agree.

How many here want some revenge? I want the Left to be able to fight their way out of a paper bag. I want them to throw dirt in faces. I want blood. I'm tired of how the team with the better idea and vision always loses because they can't implement a message. I remember this from 2010 that explains the incompetent Democrat message pretty well:

https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/417/this-party-sucks?act=2

Quidnon?

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #782 on: December 28, 2016, 08:08:27 PM »
There are no REAL alternatives to the ACA that would overwhelmingly benefit our country besides a single payer system. There has been no alternative presented that would benefit everyone despite six years of trolling from the right despite all the rhetoric.

I think your mistake is in your original assumption, which is that Republicans want Americans to have decent and affordable health insurance.  I think the past few years have proved me out on this one. 

Your bias is showing.  I stopped reading right here.
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
~ Frederic Bastiat

Lagom

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #783 on: December 28, 2016, 08:13:52 PM »
There are no REAL alternatives to the ACA that would overwhelmingly benefit our country besides a single payer system. There has been no alternative presented that would benefit everyone despite six years of trolling from the right despite all the rhetoric.

I think your mistake is in your original assumption, which is that Republicans want Americans to have decent and affordable health insurance.  I think the past few years have proved me out on this one. 

Your bias is showing.  I stopped reading right here.

Indeed. This has become a pattern. It was clear he was about to disagree with your conclusions, and thus you stopped reading lest the cognitive dissonance echo too loudly. Don't worry, you're not alone in that approach.

accolay

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #784 on: December 28, 2016, 08:25:19 PM »
There are no REAL alternatives to the ACA that would overwhelmingly benefit our country besides a single payer system. There has been no alternative presented that would benefit everyone despite six years of trolling from the right despite all the rhetoric.

I think your mistake is in your original assumption, which is that Republicans want Americans to have decent and affordable health insurance.  I think the past few years have proved me out on this one. 
Your bias is showing.  I stopped reading right here.

I'm doing it wrong. I need to follow the Republican playbook and not use facts or discourse. I need to dumb it down into small soundbites. How about instead I just say to you:

"You lie!"

accolay

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #785 on: December 28, 2016, 08:28:25 PM »

My guess is there will be no response from quidnon. I do not think it was anything he read or saw. I truly believe he was LYING when he said:

"Obama has exercised more "extra-constitutional" power, mostly via "executive orders", than all of his predecessors combined."

He read it nowhere. He just made it up. I believe there to be NO reputable source that said this. Please prove me wrong.  Let me guess: This off topic, right quidnon?

No I just can't...not sure if I should laugh or cry. Articles from opinion pages and Alex Jones website? Christ almighty!

You are trying to goad me into a defensive reply, but I'm not that emotional.  I didn't claim that Obama wrote more executive orders, but that he has done more more actions outside the limitations of the constitutional parameters of the office than his predecessors.  And I don't consider ANY sources to be trustworthy, so I will cite whatever I please.  I pulled that part about "combined" from memory, but let's see if google can help me out here...

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/428882/obama-violate-constitution-top-ten-2015

Just one year.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/waynecrews/2016/01/10/this-inventory-of-obamas-dozens-of-executive-actions-frames-his-final-state-of-the-union-address/#4016a30041bc

http://www.infowars.com/study-obama-has-issued-more-restrictive-executive-orders-than-past-six-administrations/

I probably can't support my claim that he has done it more than ALL of his predecessors, because that would require an examination of every president's actions and some kind of common ground on what should be considered unconstitutional, which we probably don't agree upon.  But nor do I care much to have that debate, because it's my definition of unconstitutional that I'm using.  This research took 5 minutes or less, so I imagine I could do better if I gave a damn, but I don't.  I don't expect to change anyone's mind anyway.

GuitarStv

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #786 on: December 28, 2016, 08:48:30 PM »

Quite frankly the KKK and co have always been a part of America. They just got a fancy new name ("alt-right"), got more media-savvy, got some people who know how to carry a conversation normally (rather than the stereotypical raving lunatic), and got a white man in office who won't denounce them. I personally don't forsee them rising up and amassing this huge stronghold.

The alt-right and the KKK are not remotely the same thing.

The term 'alt-right' itself was first coined by white supremacist Richard Spencer (https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/ideology/alternative-right).  According to Breitbart's own guide to the alt-right, the group contains both neo-nazis and members of the KKK (http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/03/29/an-establishment-conservatives-guide-to-the-alt-right/).

There is demonstrable and undeniable overlap between the KKK and the alt-right.

sol

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #787 on: December 28, 2016, 09:55:59 PM »
Your bias is showing.  I stopped reading right here.

Fortunately, I wasn't talking to you!  Get bent!

But while we're here I should mention that I find it hilarious that your refusal to read or engage in conversation has somehow become my fault, in your eyes.  You're not exactly helping your cause, if you want people to take you seriously.

Back on topic, if you think Republicans genuinely do want to improve health care, you've already been asked several times to explain what you think that should look like.  I don't think you're winning hearts and minds by making accusations against me without offering anything of substance in return.

Quidnon?

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #788 on: December 28, 2016, 10:42:06 PM »
Your bias is showing.  I stopped reading right here.

Fortunately, I wasn't talking to you!  Get bent!

But while we're here I should mention that I find it hilarious that your refusal to read or engage in conversation has somehow become my fault, in your eyes. You're not exactly helping your cause, if you want people to take you seriously.

Hmmm, honestly I don't know that is why I'm still here. I came to this thread out of curiosity, but it's my own experience in life that the same people that are most likely to engage in any kind of topic are also the least likely to have their opinions reversed.  Moving such a conversation to the internet certainly hasn't tempered that much.  Perhaps I should be reevaluating my own participation in this portion of the forum.

Quote
Back on topic, if you think Republicans genuinely do want to improve health care, you've already been asked several times to explain what you think that should look like.
I don't think that, but nor do I think there exists any maliciousness in what they do.  I am kind of mixed on calling myself a republican; part of me wants to reject it, part of me doesn't.  Either way, I'm not actually registered as a republican, and I don't vote by party lines.  I have tried to touch generally on what I'd like to see to improve health care (which I consider the most important issue, not the payment methods), but I don't want to get deep into the weeds as I consider it off-topic.  Again, if it means so much to you, start that thread.  It doesn't mean that much to myself, because I can manage with or without the ACA.

Quote
  I don't think you're winning hearts and minds by making accusations against me without offering anything of substance in return.

Yeah, I don't see that happening either, so...

Bye.
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
~ Frederic Bastiat

dragoncar

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #789 on: December 28, 2016, 10:55:40 PM »
My favorite part was when he refused to read any links, claimed no sources are reputable, then posted some links.  But other parts were good too.  8/10

accolay

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #790 on: December 29, 2016, 12:17:08 AM »
Quote
Back on topic, if you think Republicans genuinely do want to improve health care, you've already been asked several times to explain what you think that should look like.
I have tried to touch generally on what I'd like to see to improve health care (which I consider the most important issue, not the payment methods), but I don't want to get deep into the weeds as I consider it off-topic.  Again, if it means so much to you, start that thread.  It doesn't mean that much to myself, because I can manage with or without the ACA.

Payment methods matter, and decreasing costs matter. Go figure, actually having access to healthcare improves the health of those without access. Having a healthy citizenry is good for the economy. This crappy old ACA law was on a roll to save trillions. You cannot improve healthcare in the United States without managing the payment methods. They are inseparable.

What does that mean anyway, "Improve health care?" It's one of those talking point platitudes that the Right throws around when they want people to think they care without doing anything. It's not a simple answer because almost everything they are against tie together here. Give poor people enough subsidy to buy healthy food, or a living wage so they can buy it themselves? Give people time off from work/stress relief? Give families time off to be with a newborn child? Make housing healthy and affordable? Give fact-based sex education for our youth (since abstinence only education has been proven to not work)? Make medication affordable? Design cities to be livable/not car based? Decrease chemicals in food/environment? I could go on.

I just wish I could fit all that crap into a soundbite...oh yeah: "We're going to have the best system. With only the best things with the best people. It's going to be the best."

radram

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #791 on: December 29, 2016, 12:39:10 AM »



I probably can't support my claim that he has done it more than ALL of his predecessors [ don't forget the word COMBINED here!], because that would require an examination of every president's actions and some kind of common ground on what should be considered unconstitutional, which we probably don't agree upon I DIDN'T DO THE WORK AND MADE IT UP .

Fixed that for you.

That was my point all along.


http://www.nationalreview.com/article/428882/obama-violate-constitution-top-ten-2015


http://www.forbes.com/sites/waynecrews/2016/01/10/this-inventory-of-obamas-dozens-of-executive-actions-frames-his-final-state-of-the-union-address/#4016a30041bc

http://www.infowars.com/study-obama-has-issued-more-restrictive-executive-orders-than-past-six-administrations/


Interesting things to read here, but none really supporting your claim regarding extra-constitutional actions of Obama and the frequency compared to other presidents.

I read the infowars article to conclude that Obama uses the words "shall" and "must" a lot, and that he is very wordy. He did this more than the past 6 presidents (except for the one he did not). It is really more than 5 of the last 6 minus the first Clinton term.

The Forbes article was both interesting and confusing to me. It seemed to be a combination of describing past orders in addition to guessing what future orders might be. Since it was written last January, it would be interesting to see a followup as to how many of the presumed orders actually happened. There was also an interesting comment on presidential memorandum and how Obama issued twice as many as Bush.

I find it strange that you would reference the national review article, since it is talking about the constitutionality of Obama's actions, and you have your own definition of unconstitutional. I agree that we would most likely disagree on some of those claims. Maybe the supreme court will someday speak to one of them. To my knowledge, none of these points in the article have been ruled unconstitutional yet.


Thank you for responding. Have a happy new year.

Gin1984

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #792 on: December 29, 2016, 06:02:23 AM »

What is the alternative for people with preexisting conditions that there "always has been"?

There were several, actually.  Most states had "high risk" insurance pools, subsidized by the state but with 'shall issue' rules for insurance policies, my mother used one for a few years between employer sponsored plans, which almost always expire limitations upon pre-existing conditions.  The catastrophic plans I mentioned before could be used to solve for this, in several ways; but most typically by solving a "gap", for the first several years of the policy, the pre-existing condition would not be covered, but eventually that condition ages out.  There are/were health care cost sharing groups such as Samaritan, MediShare & LibertyShare; all of which still have limitations on pre-existing conditions that expire after several years of membership, allowing the "premiums" to be significantly cheaper.  Their legal ability to "discriminate" against high risk lifestyles also helps lower the costs significantly.  The main reason that such limitations ever existed was to permit the policies to be offered cheaper, by limiting the risks involved in exactly what the ACA requires by law; the asymmetric information problem that occurs when a person decides to roll the dice for a few years, and ends up with such a "pre-existing condition".  It's not that the insurance companies can't calculate for any condition going forward, it's that they can't protect the risk pool from sudden cost shocks from new members who know they need more care sooner than later than they would admit.  Since true insurance is a contract to limit personal risks, allowing a pre-existing condition limitation to time out after 3 or 5 years is a legitimate solution that is no longer permitted by the ACA.
So, your ignorance is showing.  As someone with a pre-existing condition there was no coverage for me within my condition if I lost my insurance coverage for even a day.  And those plans which did not cover it, counted as loss of coverage.  So, your solution is not to cover people with medical issue.  That is not a solution.  And this counted even if I got employer health care which is suppose cover everything. 
And yes, those health "share" plan still exist, just like they did prior to the ACA.  And they exist because they are not insurance and don't cover a lot.  That is why they are cheaper.  Go read some more before you decide you know how things should be.

Unique User

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #793 on: December 29, 2016, 06:13:23 AM »

What is the alternative for people with preexisting conditions that there "always has been"?

There were several, actually.  Most states had "high risk" insurance pools, subsidized by the state but with 'shall issue' rules for insurance policies, my mother used one for a few years between employer sponsored plans, which almost always expire limitations upon pre-existing conditions.  The catastrophic plans I mentioned before could be used to solve for this, in several ways; but most typically by solving a "gap", for the first several years of the policy, the pre-existing condition would not be covered, but eventually that condition ages out.  There are/were health care cost sharing groups such as Samaritan, MediShare & LibertyShare; all of which still have limitations on pre-existing conditions that expire after several years of membership, allowing the "premiums" to be significantly cheaper.  Their legal ability to "discriminate" against high risk lifestyles also helps lower the costs significantly.  The main reason that such limitations ever existed was to permit the policies to be offered cheaper, by limiting the risks involved in exactly what the ACA requires by law; the asymmetric information problem that occurs when a person decides to roll the dice for a few years, and ends up with such a "pre-existing condition".  It's not that the insurance companies can't calculate for any condition going forward, it's that they can't protect the risk pool from sudden cost shocks from new members who know they need more care sooner than later than they would admit.  Since true insurance is a contract to limit personal risks, allowing a pre-existing condition limitation to time out after 3 or 5 years is a legitimate solution that is no longer permitted by the ACA.
So, your ignorance is showing.  As someone with a pre-existing condition there was no coverage for me within my condition if I lost my insurance coverage for even a day.  And those plans which did not cover it, counted as loss of coverage.  So, your solution is not to cover people with medical issue.  That is not a solution.  And this counted even if I got employer health care which is suppose cover everything. 
And yes, those health "share" plan still exist, just like they did prior to the ACA.  And they exist because they are not insurance and don't cover a lot.  That is why they are cheaper.  Go read some more before you decide you know how things should be.

Agree Gin1984.  My husband had a pre-existing condition and could not get insurance, no matter the price.  He just kept getting denied, we would have agreed on a policy that excluded his condition, but still no go.  And the high risk pools denied us because we lived in a ski area in Colorado, thus must be high risk. 

wenchsenior

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #794 on: December 29, 2016, 08:34:39 AM »
My favorite part was when he refused to read any links, claimed no sources are reputable, then posted some links.  But other parts were good too.  8/10

Not to mention, judging the legality of presidential actions on what Quidnon? considers as his own private definition of unconstitutional.

This thread has been boggling my mind. Quidnon? has got to be a troll.

Kris

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #795 on: December 29, 2016, 09:00:57 AM »
My favorite part was when he refused to read any links, claimed no sources are reputable, then posted some links.  But other parts were good too.  8/10

Not to mention, judging the legality of presidential actions on what Quidnon? considers as his own private definition of unconstitutional.

This thread has been boggling my mind. Quidnon? has got to be a troll.


There's always at least one in "Off Topic." More than once, I've wondered if some of them are just new manifestations of previously banned people.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

lbmustache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #796 on: December 29, 2016, 12:24:46 PM »
I thought it was agreed we are getting more divided.  So there are some getting more liberal and some getting more conservative.  I'm not sure if an "average" is meaningful.

Overall, I'd agree we are getting more socially liberal.  Seems like we are getting more fiscally conservative.  But none of this is based on actual polls -- any anecdotal remarks here will be skewed based on your location and social circle, no?

Well, I think "divided" would indicate that people feel more strongly about their beliefs and opinions, and are less willing to compromise on them - not necessarily that we as a whole are skewing heavily to one political extreme or another. But yes you are correct in that Americans seem to be leaning towards social liberalism and fiscal conservatism.

I provided anecdotal remarks as just that. I do have some poll data, I was in a rush and didn't have time to link them all. Here you go:

Same-sex marriage: http://www.pewforum.org/2016/05/12/changing-attitudes-on-gay-marriage/
http://www.gallup.com/poll/191645/americans-support-gay-marriage-remains-high.aspx?g_source=same%20sex%20marriage&g_medium=search&g_campaign=tiles

Marijuana: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/10/12/support-for-marijuana-legalization-continues-to-rise/ 
http://www.gallup.com/poll/196550/support-legal-marijuana.aspx?g_source=marijuana&g_medium=search&g_campaign=tiles

Minimum wage: http://www.gallup.com/video/175157/trend-line-support-minimum-wage-increase.aspx?
g_source=minimum%20wage&g_medium=search&g_campaign=tiles

^ Minimum wage info is a bit more difficult to find. It seems that the Fight for $15 has taken over a lot of previous talk - but it looks like a majority of Americans support raising it ~$2 (to $9).

lbmustache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #797 on: December 29, 2016, 12:35:02 PM »
Anyway. Thank you to the person to responded to the "The KKK and alt-right are not similar." comment. Basically said what I was going to say.

For those of you living in conservative areas and would like to make an impact, this is a good read created by former congressional staffers. Details how the tea party was successful in getting their message across, and how we can start to do the same.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DzOz3Y6D8g_MNXHNMJYAz1b41_cn535aU5UsN7Lj8X8/preview

I mention conservative areas because a lot of the success of this relies on opposition to Republican representatives. I live in an area that's liberal and has a liberal Dem rep, so there's only so much I can do to disrupt.

accolay

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #798 on: December 29, 2016, 01:47:25 PM »
For those of you living in conservative areas and would like to make an impact, this is a good read created by former congressional staffers. Details how the tea party was successful in getting their message across, and how we can start to do the same.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DzOz3Y6D8g_MNXHNMJYAz1b41_cn535aU5UsN7Lj8X8/preview

I mention conservative areas because a lot of the success of this relies on opposition to Republican representatives. I live in an area that's liberal and has a liberal Dem rep, so there's only so much I can do to disrupt.

I appreciate your post. But I really wonder if facts and clear concise use of the English language is really the way to combat the seething pitchfork carrying portion of the Right in conservative areas in our "post truth" 24 hour news cycle world? How do you peacefully and rationally protest against those who are ready to spit on you for your ideals?

Democrats continue this strategy. They win every once in a while, but the overt trend is to lose elections, especially important positions of power. Only barely holding onto governance is not winning.  Being civil to our opponents and responding rationally has lost not only the presidency but swaths of state and local elections, which they totally forgot about. How do you combat a fact-free driven emotional decision making electorate with fact? These people don't participate with thoughtful helpful comments and decency. There are no Left answers to the foaming at the mouth ultra conservative and neo-nazi Right radio programs and websites and how can there be?

When Democrats do win, they take it to mean their entire system has been working like they planned, but then wonder why the next election cycle they lose. When they do have power, they fumble. They field unpopular candidates. They do nothing about money in politics. Putting Republicans in government positions after winning will continue to bite them in the ass (Comey much?) "Good luck - we will win" Is written on the bottom of the google doc. At least I love the optimism. With Obama's government Dems should have been a shoe in this cycle. The Right doesn't care about drone killings and Gitmo as long as they are the ones doing it.

Back to the topic of this thread...If a government can make up it's own facts as Trump can and will, Democrats will continue to be herded like cats and they will always lose. Republicans will mob our government with their lies, change positions when needed and deny everything previously said like our next Commander in Chief.

After remembering our President Elect's title will be Commander in Chief I remember how truly fucked we are for the next decades of washing off the shit stank of this presidency.

OurTown

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #799 on: December 29, 2016, 01:57:00 PM »
For those of you living in conservative areas and would like to make an impact, this is a good read created by former congressional staffers. Details how the tea party was successful in getting their message across, and how we can start to do the same.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DzOz3Y6D8g_MNXHNMJYAz1b41_cn535aU5UsN7Lj8X8/preview

I mention conservative areas because a lot of the success of this relies on opposition to Republican representatives. I live in an area that's liberal and has a liberal Dem rep, so there's only so much I can do to disrupt.

I appreciate your post. But I really wonder if facts and clear concise use of the English language is really the way to combat the seething pitchfork carrying portion of the Right in conservative areas in our "post truth" 24 hour news cycle world? How do you peacefully and rationally protest against those who are ready to spit on you for your ideals?

Democrats continue this strategy. They win every once in a while, but the overt trend is to lose elections, especially important positions of power. Only barely holding onto governance is not winning.  Being civil to our opponents and responding rationally has lost not only the presidency but swaths of state and local elections, which they totally forgot about. How do you combat a fact-free driven emotional decision making electorate with fact? These people don't participate with thoughtful helpful comments and decency. There are no Left answers to the foaming at the mouth ultra conservative and neo-nazi Right radio programs and websites and how can there be?

When Democrats do win, they take it to mean their entire system has been working like they planned, but then wonder why the next election cycle they lose. When they do have power, they fumble. They field unpopular candidates. They do nothing about money in politics. Putting Republicans in government positions after winning will continue to bite them in the ass (Comey much?) "Good luck - we will win" Is written on the bottom of the google doc. At least I love the optimism. With Obama's government Dems should have been a shoe in this cycle. The Right doesn't care about drone killings and Gitmo as long as they are the ones doing it.

Back to the topic of this thread...If a government can make up it's own facts as Trump can and will, Democrats will continue to be herded like cats and they will always lose. Republicans will mob our government with their lies, change positions when needed and deny everything previously said like our next Commander in Chief.

After remembering our President Elect's title will be Commander in Chief I remember how truly fucked we are for the next decades of washing off the shit stank of this presidency.

Germany, in the 20th century, survived defeat in two world wars, a fascist dictatorship, and a communist dictatorship in 1/2 the country.  They, as a society, lived to tell about it.  Hopefully we will too.