Author Topic: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?  (Read 180619 times)

Kris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2318
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #650 on: December 21, 2016, 08:00:05 AM »
He has the best words, bigly best.  It is unpresidented how much winning is ahead for us all.  You will get tired of winning.

I want comments like this, across the internet, for the next four years.  Non-stop.  So much funny.

Well, you're going to get them, mostly from Trump himself, so enjoy.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

Kris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2318
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #651 on: December 21, 2016, 09:37:17 AM »
Looks like we get to say goodbye to government funding of science research. Goodbye, NASA, National Institutes of Health, National Science Foundation, Centers for Disease Control.

It was a good run, while it lasted, I guess.

http://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2016/12/21/14012552/trump-budget-director-research-science-mulvaney?utm_campaign=vox&utm_content=entry&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

KBecks

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 721
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #652 on: December 21, 2016, 09:44:42 AM »
Maybe all the science will take place over at defense.  Muahahaha

FXF

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 481
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Los Angeles
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #653 on: December 21, 2016, 09:54:11 AM »
Maybe all the science will take place over at defense.  Muahahaha
Finally some room for the private sector to move in and do their magic /s :(

waltworks

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2269
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #654 on: December 21, 2016, 11:04:43 AM »
The folks who run the DOD and the various military branches know very well that their technological edge is the result of the last 50 years of government funded basic research... I imagine they are A) freaking out, and B) trying to figure out how they can divert funds to doing the stuff the NIH/NSF/etc won't be able to.

Maybe DARPA can make up for some cuts.

Save up your renminbi for your cutting edge alzheimer's prevention meds or nanobot immune boosters or who knows what cool new stuff... the folks who spend the money will invent the next generation of tech.

-W

Maybe all the science will take place over at defense.  Muahahaha

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5313
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #655 on: December 21, 2016, 11:19:06 AM »
Maybe all the science will take place over at defense.  Muahahaha
Finally some room for the private sector to move in and do their magic /s :(

Have we tried just contracting it all out to Halliburton?
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

dragoncar

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7021
  • Registered member
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #656 on: December 21, 2016, 03:39:42 PM »
Maybe all the science will take place over at defense.  Muahahaha
Finally some room for the private sector to move in and do their magic /s :(

Have we tried just contracting it all out to Halliburton?

Clearly the contract is going to Trump Medical Devices.

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5089
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #657 on: December 21, 2016, 03:41:02 PM »
Have we tried just contracting it all out to Halliburton?

We've moved on from those halcyon days.  Now the US government just contracts directly with Trump Enterprises. 

But don't worry, soon well contract directly with Exxon Mobil, in place of those lost Halliburton deals.

Cressida

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1776
  • Location: Sunset Zone 5
  • gender is a hierarchy
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #658 on: December 21, 2016, 05:04:08 PM »
Clinton saved face due to California.

What does that even mean? Are California voters not voters? Do they not count for some other reason? Please explain?

It means what I said. Which is a coincidence because it is what I said.  If California didn't exist, it would have been an abject failure for Clinton. For example, if California didn't exist Trump could have lost to her four medium-size states and a large handful of the small ones - and still win.

Yeah, but who cares? You might as well say that if the 19 states Clinton won didn't exist, it would have been an abject failure for Clinton. It's true but meaningless. I'm not sure what's interesting about that statement, or why it's any more interesting if you single out the largest state.

dragoncar

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7021
  • Registered member
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #659 on: December 21, 2016, 05:20:04 PM »
Clinton saved face due to California.

What does that even mean? Are California voters not voters? Do they not count for some other reason? Please explain?

It means what I said. Which is a coincidence because it is what I said.  If California didn't exist, it would have been an abject failure for Clinton. For example, if California didn't exist Trump could have lost to her four medium-size states and a large handful of the small ones - and still win.

Yeah, but who cares? You might as well say that if the 19 states Clinton won didn't exist, it would have been an abject failure for Clinton. It's true but meaningless. I'm not sure what's interesting about that statement, or why it's any more interesting if you single out the largest state.

And if California had the same number of electors per capita as Wyoming, Clinton would have won by 75 electoral votes.  And if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5313
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #660 on: December 22, 2016, 05:18:42 AM »
Have we tried just contracting it all out to Halliburton?

We've moved on from those halcyon days.  Now the US government just contracts directly with Trump Enterprises. 

But don't worry, soon well contract directly with Exxon Mobil, in place of those lost Halliburton deals.

Good. I was getting worried about Trump's conflicts of interest. :D
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

FXF

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 481
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Los Angeles
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #661 on: December 22, 2016, 11:32:41 AM »


We're so fucked. Humanity had a good run though.


ender

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3706
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #662 on: December 22, 2016, 11:34:28 AM »
We're so fucked. Humanity had a good run though.

You mean how North Korea and Iran both are well on the way to nuclear weapons and the ability to instigate WWIII?


Lagom

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1201
  • Age: 34
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #663 on: December 22, 2016, 11:42:17 AM »
We're so fucked. Humanity had a good run though.

You mean how North Korea and Iran both are well on the way to nuclear weapons and the ability to instigate WWIII?

I think he means how the US doesn't need more nukes to be able to obliterate the earth multiple times over, and Trump's attitude indicates a bellicosity that raises genuine concerns over how he views the prospect of a nuclear response to hostile foreign acts. But I try not to be too pessimistic on that one because either it'll be fine, or we'll all be dead.

North Korea remains a joke. Iran should honestly be our ally, and probably would if the government ever comes to its senses on that one. But even if we accept your premise that both countries represent some kind of existential threat, building more nukes while escalating the rhetorical attacks on them is probably the least helpful way to address the situation that I can imagine.

ender

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3706
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #664 on: December 22, 2016, 11:45:50 AM »
North Korea remains a joke. Iran should honestly be our ally, and probably would if the government ever comes to its senses on that one. But even if we accept your premise that both countries represent some kind of existential threat, building more nukes while escalating the rhetorical attacks on them is probably the least helpful way to address the situation that I can imagine.

North Korea being "a joke" is easy to say when you are not living very near to them. I suspect South Korea or Japan do not find it funny that their insane neighbor is testing nuclear weapons.

If you don't think that Iran/Israel poses one of the most likely nuclear incidents going forward I think you are gravely mistaken about the depth of conflict between them.

FXF

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 481
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Los Angeles
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #665 on: December 22, 2016, 11:49:23 AM »
North Korea remains a joke. Iran should honestly be our ally, and probably would if the government ever comes to its senses on that one. But even if we accept your premise that both countries represent some kind of existential threat, building more nukes while escalating the rhetorical attacks on them is probably the least helpful way to address the situation that I can imagine.

North Korea being "a joke" is easy to say when you are not living very near to them. I suspect South Korea or Japan do not find it funny that their insane neighbor is testing nuclear weapons.

If you don't think that Iran/Israel poses one of the most likely nuclear incidents going forward I think you are gravely mistaken about the depth of conflict between them.
Which still doesn't explain why (or more precisely if) you think the US having more would somehow help.

ender

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3706
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #666 on: December 22, 2016, 11:52:57 AM »
Which still doesn't explain why (or more precisely if) you think the US having more would somehow help.

There are many ways you can expand or strengthen nuclear capability without purely building more.

You could reduce the number of nuclear weapons the USA has by 50% but still expand the overall capability and strength of American nuclear strength.

waltworks

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2269
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #667 on: December 22, 2016, 11:56:02 AM »
Having a ton of very sophisticated nukes that can hit any target on earth in a matter of half an hour didn't stop North Korea from building them. It didn't stop Pakistan or India.

It's a great way to deter other major powers. It's not so great to deter small nations or subnational actors with questionable judgement.

I'm not opposed to the US having nuclear weapons. But WTF is the point of having more than we already do? We have a ton in a wide spectrum of types/delivery vehicles. Trump presumably has no idea and is just trying to troll liberals, though. Besides, if he wants more/better nukes, he's going to have to, say, refrain from letting Rick Perry defund the DOE...

Or maybe he's trolling Perry AND liberals at the same time! A masterstroke!

-W

FXF

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 481
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Los Angeles
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #668 on: December 22, 2016, 11:56:43 AM »
Which still doesn't explain why (or more precisely if) you think the US having more would somehow help.

There are many ways you can expand or strengthen nuclear capability without purely building more.

You could reduce the number of nuclear weapons the USA has by 50% but still expand the overall capability and strength of American nuclear strength.
You're right of course so let me rephrase and specify my question then.
How exactly does strengthening the US' nuclear capabilities help solve any (of the aforementioned) problems?

Lagom

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1201
  • Age: 34
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #669 on: December 22, 2016, 12:11:29 PM »
North Korea remains a joke. Iran should honestly be our ally, and probably would if the government ever comes to its senses on that one. But even if we accept your premise that both countries represent some kind of existential threat, building more nukes while escalating the rhetorical attacks on them is probably the least helpful way to address the situation that I can imagine.

North Korea being "a joke" is easy to say when you are not living very near to them. I suspect South Korea or Japan do not find it funny that their insane neighbor is testing nuclear weapons.

If you don't think that Iran/Israel poses one of the most likely nuclear incidents going forward I think you are gravely mistaken about the depth of conflict between them.

Your comments about North Korea could be applied to anywhere on the globe that two neighbors don't get along. The point remains that we very obviously don't need to do anything differently with our nuclear arsenal with regards to them.

I do agree that our highly problematic relationship with Israel is one of the driving forces behind continued instability in the Middle East and could easily lead to terrible conflict. But hawkishness regarding our nuclear capabilities is not going to help there either.

dragoncar

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7021
  • Registered member
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #670 on: December 22, 2016, 12:29:56 PM »

And if California had the same number of electors per capita as Wyoming, Clinton would have won by 75 electoral votes.  And if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

Why is this relevant?  The same complaint can be made about seats in the senate - should California get more?  The system is designed to give all states fair representation.  If the electoral college is deemed unfair, congress is identical.  Why are there no calls for an amendment to abolish the senate?

Ok, so it's relevant to propose a hypothetical where California doesn't exist, but irrelevant to propose a hypothetical where California voters get equal representation. 

dragoncar

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7021
  • Registered member
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #671 on: December 23, 2016, 02:04:06 AM »

And if California had the same number of electors per capita as Wyoming, Clinton would have won by 75 electoral votes.  And if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

Why is this relevant?  The same complaint can be made about seats in the senate - should California get more?  The system is designed to give all states fair representation.  If the electoral college is deemed unfair, congress is identical.  Why are there no calls for an amendment to abolish the senate?

Ok, so it's relevant to propose a hypothetical where California doesn't exist, but irrelevant to propose a hypothetical where California voters get equal representation.

Not sure where California's existence is being questioned, certainly it does exist!

I was pointing out that the argument of equal representation has implications beyond the electoral college.  Giving all states a say is the foundation of our government.

It's convenient to blame the electoral college as unfair, and ignore the way congress is organized.  But that argument directly applies to congress as well.  Those that believe in weighted representation by population should favor abolishing the electoral college AND the entire senate. 

I don't see how one can be against the electoral college and still support the even greater power states get in the legislative branch via the senate.

See the post I replied to.  I'm not really a fan of the senate either, although I understand where direct democracy can run into problems. 

You say every state should get a say, but why would it have to be an equal say?  Why should states get an equal say while citizens do not?

kayvent

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 385
  • Location: Canada
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #672 on: December 23, 2016, 05:20:34 AM »


We're so fucked. Humanity had a good run though.



Oh shit.

jim555

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1067
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #673 on: December 23, 2016, 07:17:05 AM »
Nothing calms my nerves like Donald Trump tweeting about a nuclear arms race.  Crazy-n-Chief in full effect.

golden1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1355
  • Location: MA
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #674 on: December 23, 2016, 07:21:58 AM »
Someone explain to me why people on THIS particular forum support Trump, I mean, just as a general principle. 

The reason this forum exists:  Pete, aka MMM.

His blog, as far as I can tell, promotes:

1) Frugality
2) Personal responsibility
3) Minimalism
4) Lowering your personal footprint to minimize your contribution to climate change. 

Trump:
1) Is the opposite of Frugal, spends lavishly on himself.
2) Has filed for bankruptcy multiple times and owes money to banks.  He also spends his life blaming others when things in his life go wrong.
3) Owns multiple houses, boats etc....  Runs a business selling luxury goods and services. 
4) Has stated that climate change is a Chinese hoax. 

I mean, this guy should be the star of the Anti-mustachian forum.  How can a person actually read the blog posts by MMM, say "I agree with this", and then turn around and vote for this guy.  Sure, I get not voting for Hillary, but vote for anyone else.   It just boggles the mind. 

Kris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2318
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #675 on: December 23, 2016, 07:59:37 AM »
Someone explain to me why people on THIS particular forum support Trump, I mean, just as a general principle. 

The reason this forum exists:  Pete, aka MMM.

His blog, as far as I can tell, promotes:

1) Frugality
2) Personal responsibility
3) Minimalism
4) Lowering your personal footprint to minimize your contribution to climate change. 

Trump:
1) Is the opposite of Frugal, spends lavishly on himself.
2) Has filed for bankruptcy multiple times and owes money to banks.  He also spends his life blaming others when things in his life go wrong.
3) Owns multiple houses, boats etc....  Runs a business selling luxury goods and services. 
4) Has stated that climate change is a Chinese hoax. 

I mean, this guy should be the star of the Anti-mustachian forum.  How can a person actually read the blog posts by MMM, say "I agree with this", and then turn around and vote for this guy.  Sure, I get not voting for Hillary, but vote for anyone else.   It just boggles the mind.

Never underestimate people's capacity for cognitive dissonance, I guess.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

EscapeVelocity2020

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1339
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Houston
    • EscapeVelocity2020
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #676 on: December 23, 2016, 08:11:16 AM »
I don't get the impression that there are many vocal Trump supporters on the forum, only two come to mind - Metric Mouse (has already said MMM wouldn't approve of his lifestyle) and Acroy.  Maybe a few 'low posters'.  I also agree that being a Trump supporter and Mustachian seems incongruous, Trump is about as 100% non-Elon Musk as possible.  In 4 years, Musk could have our county running on alternative energy and pollution-free vehicles, exporting fossil fuels to 3rd world countries, and continuously put new people to work in new industrial endeavors as the last ones become automated to drive down costs.  In 4 years of Trump, we will have become mired in trade wars, have more toxic nukes rotting in the ground than anybody, have half a wall built (with lots of nice tunnels under it), and probably be on the brink of war (civil, international, terrorist).  I have lost all faith an electoral process that puts Trump in charge and I am actually frightened for other countries because we seem to have lost control of our own country.  The President is supposed to represent the will of the people, to be a public servant - Trump is none of these.  Trump, ultimately, is going to do what his gut tells him - which all point to the US exporting instability.  Great for making quick money and consolidating power at the top, not good for Humanitarian progress. 
Transitioning to FIRE'd albeit somewhat cautiously...

dycker1978

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 596
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #677 on: December 23, 2016, 09:09:00 AM »
North Korea remains a joke. Iran should honestly be our ally, and probably would if the government ever comes to its senses on that one. But even if we accept your premise that both countries represent some kind of existential threat, building more nukes while escalating the rhetorical attacks on them is probably the least helpful way to address the situation that I can imagine.

North Korea being "a joke" is easy to say when you are not living very near to them. I suspect South Korea or Japan do not find it funny that their insane neighbor is testing nuclear weapons.

If you don't think that Iran/Israel poses one of the most likely nuclear incidents going forward I think you are gravely mistaken about the depth of conflict between them.
Which still doesn't explain why (or more precisely if) you think the US having more would somehow help.


I think this argument is kind of funny and akin to More Guns will stop Gun violence, but yet, if I were to read into one of the many gun forums on the MMM site that is the belief of many.  This is a belief that seems to get bought in to have more of something, so that that something doesn't get used... weird to me.

Lagom

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1201
  • Age: 34
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #678 on: December 23, 2016, 09:57:08 AM »
I think the equal voice given to each state in the senate, combined with the weighted voice in congress strikes the right balance.  I'm surprised to see disagreement here, but we can agree to disagree.  I think I have a better understanding of your viewpoint.

The thing is, while congress is semi weighted (though large states are still quite disadvantaged due to the size cap), the electoral college also greatly favors less populated states (largely due to that same congressional cap at 435). So really there is no branch of the government that doesn't favor the smaller states to some extent.

I don't get the impression that there are many vocal Trump supporters on the forum, only two come to mind - Metric Mouse (has already said MMM wouldn't approve of his lifestyle) and Acroy.  Maybe a few 'low posters'.  I also agree that being a Trump supporter and Mustachian seems incongruous, Trump is about as 100% non-Elon Musk as possible.  In 4 years, Musk could have our county running on alternative energy and pollution-free vehicles, exporting fossil fuels to 3rd world countries, and continuously put new people to work in new industrial endeavors as the last ones become automated to drive down costs.  In 4 years of Trump, we will have become mired in trade wars, have more toxic nukes rotting in the ground than anybody, have half a wall built (with lots of nice tunnels under it), and probably be on the brink of war (civil, international, terrorist).  I have lost all faith an electoral process that puts Trump in charge and I am actually frightened for other countries because we seem to have lost control of our own country.  The President is supposed to represent the will of the people, to be a public servant - Trump is none of these.  Trump, ultimately, is going to do what his gut tells him - which all point to the US exporting instability.  Great for making quick money and consolidating power at the top, not good for Humanitarian progress. 

I don't think Metric Mouse supports Trump per se, but there are definitely a good 5-10 individuals who have stood up for him in these various threads. I mean, I suppose kudos to them for making their case against an audience that largely does not see the same way, but I also definitely agree that Trump is probably the least mustachian candidate (both individually and philosophically/politically) I can imagine, even if we were to ignore his many other flaws.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2016, 02:57:13 PM by Lagom »

Quidnon?

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 337
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #679 on: December 23, 2016, 01:20:35 PM »


We're so fucked. Humanity had a good run though.



Oh shit.

I think this is so funny. I honestly don't know if Trump is serious here, but my gut tells me that he is just screwing with the left, and the public reactions so far seem to b exactly the result that a troll would have hoped for.  Trump is definitely going to be the first troll ever elected to the presidency.  I need more popcorn.
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
~ Frederic Bastiat

dycker1978

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 596
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #680 on: December 23, 2016, 01:29:17 PM »


We're so fucked. Humanity had a good run though.



Oh shit.

I think this is so funny. I honestly don't know if Trump is serious here, but my gut tells me that he is just screwing with the left, and the public reactions so far seem to b exactly the result that a troll would have hoped for.  Trump is definitely going to be the first troll ever elected to the presidency.  I need more popcorn.
I hope he doesn't troll China, or Russia to ramp up production and who knows what else.

dragoncar

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7021
  • Registered member
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #681 on: December 23, 2016, 02:51:44 PM »
I think the equal voice given to each state in the senate, combined with the weighted voice in congress strikes the right balance.  I'm surprised to see disagreement here, but we can agree to disagree.  I think I have a better understanding of your viewpoint.

Ok so you and I win $100 and we want to split it.  I own more land, of course, so I want twice as much money as you get.  You disagree- you want an equal split.  So we compromise.. half of the money will be split equally and half will be split according to land ownership.  So I end up with .5*.5+(2/3)*.5=58%.  This is fair, yes?

jim555

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1067
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #682 on: December 23, 2016, 03:14:14 PM »
Trump is like watching a really drunk person at a party.  Everyone tells him you shouldn't drive.  He grabs the keys and goes outside, gets in the car, starts down the road.  January 20th is like when he starts the car.  You know it isn't going to end well and there is nothing you can do about it.  That is how I feel right now.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2016, 04:00:12 PM by jim555 »

Quidnon?

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 337
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #683 on: December 23, 2016, 07:49:27 PM »
Trump is like watching a really drunk person at a party.  Everyone tells him you shouldn't drive.  He grabs the keys and goes outside, gets in the car, starts down the road.  January 20th is like when he starts the car.  You know it isn't going to end well and there is nothing you can do about it.  That is how I feel right now.

That is how you are supposed to feel.  Thank you posting this, but it would be even better if you went on YouTube and posted a video of yourself talking about your imagination.  Make sure that you post the link, so that I can enjoy it properly.  With popcorn.
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
~ Frederic Bastiat

EscapeVelocity2020

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1339
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Houston
    • EscapeVelocity2020
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #684 on: December 23, 2016, 08:19:39 PM »
I think this is so funny. I honestly don't know if Trump is serious here, but my gut tells me that he is just screwing with the left, and the public reactions so far seem to b exactly the result that a troll would have hoped for.  Trump is definitely going to be the first troll ever elected to the presidency.  I need more popcorn.

This is exactly why Trump is so dangerous.  He got the nomination by 'saying what others wouldn't say'.  Then he won the election by playing the game better than the one opponent. 

If you supporters or disbelievers still think this nut job is using colorful language and being figurative, then not taking the President seriously is on you.  He is saying these things as President.  This is what the rest of the world knows of what Americans think.
Transitioning to FIRE'd albeit somewhat cautiously...

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5089
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #685 on: December 23, 2016, 09:45:15 PM »
So was it a dumb rookie move or could it be part of a calculated plan?  Time will tell.

It was definitely part of plan.  The call was brokered by Bob Dole, who has been working behind the scenes on improving relations with Taiwan because he's a registered foreign agent.  Taiwan pays him to be a sort of sanctioned national lobbyist.

So the real question isn't whether or not Trump had a plan.  The real question is why Trump worked with a foreign agent to upset existing foreign policy before he's even in office, effectively following someone else's plan.  It's the same question we have with Paul Manafort's status with Russia.  Trump seems to be taking his cues from the governments of other nations, rather than acting in the best interests of the country that elected him. 
« Last Edit: December 23, 2016, 10:20:14 PM by sol »

dragoncar

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7021
  • Registered member
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #686 on: December 23, 2016, 10:01:09 PM »
Quote
Someone explain to me why people on THIS particular forum support Trump, I mean, just as a general principle.

I think a lot less separates you from many Trump supporters than you realize.  I've seen constant bashing on this and other forums, but little intelligent discussion.  Many can not fathom why anyone with half a brain would support Trump, so when they encounter one, they may assume that person is stupid and no productive discussion can be had.

Trump is an interesting character.  He has many flaws that have been discussed.  Why would anyone support him?  I think part of his appeal is that he has almost no political experience and he does not follow the status quo. 

I'm intrigued by the Taiwan incident.  Obama or Clinton would never have done this.  Here's my understanding:
 President of Taiwan calls Trump to congratulate him on being elected President.
 Trump takes the call and has a short discussion marking the first official contact between US and Taiwan in 37 years.
 China is upset by this as it's against the One China diplomacy rule they have created.
 Trump is called rookie and other bashing ensues for making this mistake.

I also couldn't understand why Trump did this until I learned more. 

US does not officially acknowledge Taiwan as an independent state, but as part of China.  This is in accordance with the One China diplomatic policy that keeps relations smooth with the communist government on mainland China.
 
But wait, there's more - even though US doesn't acknowledge Taiwan as an independent state, we sell weapons to Taiwan.  What for?  So Taiwan can protect itself from China?  Now I admit I don't know much about global politics, but this is some strange arrangement.  From what I read, China is also quite unhappy that US continues to sell defensive weapons to Taiwan.

This is strange politics - US is saying we don't acknowledge your autonomy from China, but here's some weapons so you can defend yourself and remain autonomous.  It's very strange to sell weapons to a state we have no official relations with.

So there's one thing he's done that I like - he's changed the status quo with China.  Some may fear what will come of this, and we really can't say yet.  There is much to be gained if it turns out this is the first step in the improving the US  trade deficit with China. 

So was it a dumb rookie move or could it be part of a calculated plan?  Time will tell.

Would you trust someone with no financial experience with your portfolio?  Why would you trust someone with no political experience with your country?

Cressida

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1776
  • Location: Sunset Zone 5
  • gender is a hierarchy
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #687 on: December 23, 2016, 11:43:07 PM »
Dragon - The same argument was made against Obama in 2008 - he had very little experience and it turns out he did a more than adequate job.

That's not the same thing. Obama didn't have decades of experience, but he did have several years of legislative experience, including four at the national level, and he was a constitutional law scholar. Obama had much more relevant experience than Trump has had.

I find these sorts of comments just bizarre. bender, do you actually think that Trump and Obama were equal in their levels of experience relevant to the presidency? Really?

jim555

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1067
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #688 on: December 24, 2016, 04:35:34 AM »
Trump can cram some schoolhouse rock videos on American government and he is good to go, the best, 100% ready.

ender

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3706
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #689 on: December 24, 2016, 09:14:55 AM »
Dragon - The same argument was made against Obama in 2008 - he had very little experience and it turns out he did a more than adequate job.

That's not the same thing. Obama didn't have decades of experience, but he did have several years of legislative experience, including four at the national level, and he was a constitutional law scholar. Obama had much more relevant experience than Trump has had.

I find these sorts of comments just bizarre. bender, do you actually think that Trump and Obama were equal in their levels of experience relevant to the presidency? Really?

What's the minimum required years of political experiences to "qualify" someone as president? Is two years of political experience enough prior to announcing a presidential run?

I mean, I get that Obama had more than Trump (strictly political experience, it's debatable whether Trump's executive leadership is a value-add or not). But let's not pretend that Obama was vastly overqualified compared to Trump.


sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5089
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #690 on: December 24, 2016, 09:32:46 AM »
But it turned out experience wasn't that important in 2008, and obviously again in 2016.  As I've mentioned, Obama did just fine as President, even with minimal experience.

The reason why Obama's relative inexperience turned out okay is that he staffed his administration with good experience.  He kept some of the best people from Bush's administration.  He appointed a Nobel Prize winning PhD physicist to Energy.  Rahm Emanuel was the mayor of a major US metropolis. He put Janet Napoplitano on his transition team.  The entire transition team was full of the country's most experienced and qualified peeps.

Go ahead and do some research on the people Trump is appointing.  He's supplementing his own inexperience with more inexperience, chosen for their loyalty instead of their qualifications.

I would be less worried about Trump's Presidency if he at least looked like he was TRYING to do a good job.  Instead, he keeps appointing people to cabinet posts who want to abolish the agencies they will lead because they have no understanding of what those agencies actually do. 

Kris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2318
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #691 on: December 24, 2016, 09:48:30 AM »
But it turned out experience wasn't that important in 2008, and obviously again in 2016.  As I've mentioned, Obama did just fine as President, even with minimal experience.

The reason why Obama's relative inexperience turned out okay is that he staffed his administration with good experience.  He kept some of the best people from Bush's administration.  He appointed a Nobel Prize winning PhD physicist to Energy.  Rahm Emanuel was the mayor of a major US metropolis. He put Janet Napoplitano on his transition team.  The entire transition team was full of the country's most experienced and qualified peeps.

Go ahead and do some research on the people Trump is appointing.  He's supplementing his own inexperience with more inexperience, chosen for their loyalty instead of their qualifications.

I would be less worried about Trump's Presidency if he at least looked like he was TRYING to do a good job.  Instead, he keeps appointing people to cabinet posts who want to abolish the agencies they will lead because they have no understanding of what those agencies actually do.

Agreed. I'm actually quite a bit more worried about Trump's presidency than I was when he was first elected. In the halcyon days of November 9, I stupidly presumed he'd try to make up for the fact that he is remarkably unqualified and ignorant of what a president actually needs to do/know, by appointing people who, if morally bankrupt, at least had some experience that would make up for what Trump lacked. Now, that level of blind optimism seems almost cute in its na´vetÚ.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

Lagom

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1201
  • Age: 34
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #692 on: December 24, 2016, 10:11:00 AM »
I think a lot less separates you from many Trump supporters than you realize.  I've seen constant bashing on this and other forums, but little intelligent discussion.  Many can not fathom why anyone with half a brain would support Trump, so when they encounter one, they may assume that person is stupid and no productive discussion can be had.

Please note that the posts immediately following this (yet another) claim that all anyone who dislike Trump does is bash his supporters were in fact substantive and thoughtful. On this forum, at least, let's not fall for gaslighting tactics please. Plenty of people are opposing the incoming administration for well-considered reasons and it is highly disingenuous, not to mention dangerous, to continue to push the sore loser, elitist, out-of-touch Democrat narrative.

Lagom

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1201
  • Age: 34
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #693 on: December 24, 2016, 02:20:18 PM »
I think a lot less separates you from many Trump supporters than you realize.  I've seen constant bashing on this and other forums, but little intelligent discussion.  Many can not fathom why anyone with half a brain would support Trump, so when they encounter one, they may assume that person is stupid and no productive discussion can be had.

Please note that the posts immediately following this (yet another) claim that all anyone who dislike Trump does is bash his supporters were in fact substantive and thoughtful. On this forum, at least, let's not fall for gaslighting tactics please. Plenty of people are opposing the incoming administration for well-considered reasons and it is highly disingenuous, not to mention dangerous, to continue to push the sore loser, elitist, out-of-touch Democrat narrative.

Agreed!  There is plenty to legitimately criticize - and I've learned a fair bit from the recent posts - thanks all for that.  It's the tired one line zingers and insults that were bugging me most.

Fair enough. Merry Christmas everyone!

dragoncar

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7021
  • Registered member
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #694 on: December 24, 2016, 04:07:08 PM »
I think a lot less separates you from many Trump supporters than you realize.  I've seen constant bashing on this and other forums, but little intelligent discussion.  Many can not fathom why anyone with half a brain would support Trump, so when they encounter one, they may assume that person is stupid and no productive discussion can be had.

Please note that the posts immediately following this (yet another) claim that all anyone who dislike Trump does is bash his supporters were in fact substantive and thoughtful. On this forum, at least, let's not fall for gaslighting tactics please. Plenty of people are opposing the incoming administration for well-considered reasons and it is highly disingenuous, not to mention dangerous, to continue to push the sore loser, elitist, out-of-touch Democrat narrative.

Although I agree with you, I've noticed that recently I see a lot of things being called "dangerous".  I see it a few times a day at this point (in political and non-political discussion), and I'm not sure why it's suddenly so common, but I think people should start using a different word.  Most of the things I see being called "dangerous" is hyperbole.

The phrase I hate to see most: "this sets a dangerous precedence"

Carrie

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 278
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #695 on: December 24, 2016, 07:02:22 PM »
Shouldn't that be "this sets a dangerous precedent? "  or, if you'd rather, "this sets a dangerous president. "

dragoncar

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7021
  • Registered member
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #696 on: December 24, 2016, 07:56:08 PM »
Shouldn't that be "this sets a dangerous precedent? "  or, if you'd rather, "this sets a dangerous president. "

Yes, but typically the person saying it doesn't understand the difference

Lagom

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1201
  • Age: 34
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #697 on: December 24, 2016, 08:04:05 PM »

Although I agree with you, I've noticed that recently I see a lot of things being called "dangerous".  I see it a few times a day at this point (in political and non-political discussion), and I'm not sure why it's suddenly so common, but I think people should start using a different word.  Most of the things I see being called "dangerous" is hyperbole.

The phrase I hate to see most: "this sets a dangerous precedence"

I think you make a fair point. I'll elaborate on why I used the word and leave it to you to decide if I was being hyperbolic. I would say I probably was in retrospect, but I didn't pull the word out of nowhere.

In this instance, the reason I think labeling all who dislike Trump in that fashion is "dangerous" is because it delegitimizes the idea that there can be such a thing as informed dissent. Like many before me, I would argue that dissent is an essential aspect to a healthy democracy, and spreading the idea that only hateful/spiteful/out-of-touch people would dare to disagree is highly problematic, especially when that tactic seems increasingly common (i.e. the "post-truth" world). Note that both sides do this (e.g. "all Trump voters are racist!").

Trump himself is a master of gaslighting and is pretty much the epitome of a cult of personality leader. So while I acknowledge that these sorts of claims get thrown around during most elections, I am personally more worried (as a "dissenter") this time because of the nature of the president elect vis a vis his predecessors. Add in the cronyism and yes-man culture already being cultivated in the incoming cabinet, and while possibly paranoid, "dangerous" feels like a more reasonable conclusion than it might have in earlier elections. To wit, I never called the "you're just a sore loser, hateful, liberal elitist" folks in 2000 "dangerous." I honestly think the difference between then and now is pretty clear.

Cressida

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1776
  • Location: Sunset Zone 5
  • gender is a hierarchy
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #698 on: December 24, 2016, 11:35:42 PM »
I find these sorts of comments just bizarre. bender, do you actually think that Trump and Obama were equal in their levels of experience relevant to the presidency? Really?

What's the minimum required years of political experiences to "qualify" someone as president? Is two years of political experience enough prior to announcing a presidential run?

I mean, I get that Obama had more than Trump (strictly political experience, it's debatable whether Trump's executive leadership is a value-add or not). But let's not pretend that Obama was vastly overqualified compared to Trump.

Regarding years of government work: That's not what I said. I never used or implied the word "vastly." Chill out on the straw men, please.

Regarding actual relevant life experience: You're kidding, right?
« Last Edit: December 24, 2016, 11:38:15 PM by Cressida »

golden1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1355
  • Location: MA
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #699 on: December 26, 2016, 07:00:50 PM »
I feel hyperbolic much of the time when talking about Trump, and I know it, but he legit scares me.  Not him so much as that a giant segment of the population voted for him.  A smaller segment of that population seems to have checked any critical thinking about Trump at the door and really just don't care what he does or says, even if he violates their interests. 

They have accepted that they can't take his words literally.  If you are at that point with a human being, you are giving him free license to do absolutely anything to anyone.  I really do wonder what would happen if he shot someone on the street tomorrow.  The hard core Trumpers would refuse to believe it, call it a conspiracy, say it was fake news.  If Trump himself admitted it, they would say that the FBI or CIA were coercing him. 

I honestly feel much of the time like the US has turned into Jonestown.