Author Topic: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?  (Read 251599 times)

Kris

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #500 on: December 13, 2016, 10:51:01 AM »
So when you say minority voter you are specifically talking about racial minorities?
Apparently race could have a play in voting power, but other factors should not.

Not as far as I'm concerned. I'm a "one person, one vote" kind of gal.

But I'm working with the word "minority", which was brought up as a reason why people in NoDak, for example, should have their votes count more than people in California.

There are many ways to define "minority." I didn't bring the term up. But calling people from NoDak "minorities" as a reason their votes should count more seems pretty crazy, since they are not racial minorities, and their choice to live in a particular geographic location is just that: a choice.

My point being, "minority" seems like an argument that crumbles pretty quickly when one brings up the EC and tries to justify it that way.

Before we get too far into semantics, can we just recognize that the term minority usually has to be interpreted within context? As a white male I am in a majority group (for now0, but I am still within a religious minority in this nation. As a person with a PhD, I am in an educational minority, etc... The use of the term minority does not automatically and equivocally invoke the race card.

The electoral college (as Sol discussed above) was set up as a way for states to select the president and to maintain a political balance of power between regions of the fledgling country. Different portions of the country had pretty different cultures. Slaves were also allotted 3/5 representation (but still not allowed to vote) to help balance that power too. Mathematically, more people in this country live in urban areas now. Rural voters are a mathematical minority. Rural votes have disproportionate power in the EC (and the senate).

Yes, of course.

The word "fledging" seems operative here.

In the twenty-first century, arguing the rectitude of the EC based on "minority" status seems less justifiable, however, and even arbitrary.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #501 on: December 13, 2016, 11:01:14 AM »
Before we get too far into semantics, can we just recognize that the term minority usually has to be interpreted within context? As a white male I am in a majority group (for now0, but I am still within a religious minority in this nation. As a person with a PhD, I am in an educational minority, etc... The use of the term minority does not automatically and equivocally invoke the race card.

The electoral college (as Sol discussed above) was set up as a way for states to select the president and to maintain a political balance of power between regions of the fledgling country. Different portions of the country had pretty different cultures. Slaves were also allotted 3/5 representation (but still not allowed to vote) to help balance that power too. Mathematically, more people in this country live in urban areas now. Rural voters are a mathematical minority. Rural votes have disproportionate power in the EC (and the senate).

Yes, of course.

The word "fledging" seems operative here.

In the twenty-first century, arguing the rectitude of the EC based on "minority" status seems less justifiable, however, and even arbitrary.

I think the operative word is Republic. The United States is a Republic of states - those with smaller populations have their power balanced with states with larger population. This would be a problem in a democracy; thankfully the United States is no a pure democracy and thus governmental checks and balances are provided.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #502 on: December 13, 2016, 11:19:16 AM »
Before we get too far into semantics, can we just recognize that the term minority usually has to be interpreted within context? As a white male I am in a majority group (for now0, but I am still within a religious minority in this nation. As a person with a PhD, I am in an educational minority, etc... The use of the term minority does not automatically and equivocally invoke the race card.

The electoral college (as Sol discussed above) was set up as a way for states to select the president and to maintain a political balance of power between regions of the fledgling country. Different portions of the country had pretty different cultures. Slaves were also allotted 3/5 representation (but still not allowed to vote) to help balance that power too. Mathematically, more people in this country live in urban areas now. Rural voters are a mathematical minority. Rural votes have disproportionate power in the EC (and the senate).

Yes, of course.

The word "fledging" seems operative here.

In the twenty-first century, arguing the rectitude of the EC based on "minority" status seems less justifiable, however, and even arbitrary.

I think the operative word is Republic. The United States is a Republic of states - those with smaller populations have their power balanced with states with larger population. This would be a problem in a democracy; thankfully the United States is no a pure democracy and thus governmental checks and balances are provided.
Republic is really not the issue.
Germany is a republic of states but does not have these problems.
The issue is purely the election system of First Past the Post.

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #503 on: December 13, 2016, 11:34:15 AM »
Republic is really not the issue.
Germany is a republic of states but does not have these problems.
The issue is purely the election system of First Past the Post.

Great point. They also have an electoral college. So perhaps we are indeed focusing on the wrong issue.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #504 on: December 13, 2016, 11:47:22 AM »
Republic is really not the issue.
Germany is a republic of states but does not have these problems.
The issue is purely the election system of First Past the Post.

Great point. They also have an electoral college. So perhaps we are indeed focusing on the wrong issue.
Yes, but winner-take-all is so inherently intuitive and satisfying to capitalists! (take with humor)

dragoncar

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #505 on: December 13, 2016, 12:03:26 PM »
How is it fair that my vote counts less than someone elseís?  The EC needs to go away.

Damn straight!  The country should just be run by the coasts and the districts in the middle should stfu.

Of course not, the country should be run by its people, each person receiving one vote.  Should we also give rich people extra votes just so the poor and middle class  don't run the country?

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #506 on: December 13, 2016, 12:04:49 PM »
How is it fair that my vote counts less than someone elseís?  The EC needs to go away.

Damn straight!  The country should just be run by the coasts and the districts in the middle should stfu.

Of course not, the country should be run by its people, each person receiving one vote.  Should we also give rich people extra votes just so the poor and middle class  don't run the country?

according to many of the founding fathers, the answer would be an emphatic, "Yes."

sol

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #507 on: December 13, 2016, 12:08:51 PM »
How is it fair that my vote counts less than someone elseís?  The EC needs to go away.

Damn straight!  The country should just be run by the coasts and the districts in the middle should stfu.

Of course not, the country should be run by its people, each person receiving one vote.  Should we also give rich people extra votes just so the poor and middle class  don't run the country?

according to many of the founding fathers, the answer would be an emphatic, "Yes."

And that is exactly the problem with system they created, and the reason I think it should be changed.  We're not the same country we were back then.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #508 on: December 13, 2016, 12:11:36 PM »
How is it fair that my vote counts less than someone else’s?  The EC needs to go away.

Damn straight!  The country should just be run by the coasts and the districts in the middle should stfu.

Of course not, the country should be run by its people, each person receiving one vote.  Should we also give rich people extra votes just so the poor and middle class  don't run the country?

according to many of the founding fathers, the answer would be an emphatic, "Yes."

And that is exactly the problem with system they created, and the reason I think it should be changed.  We're not the same country we were back then.

Agreed. And a lot of that change has to do with things like widespread public education.

dragoncar

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #509 on: December 13, 2016, 12:13:25 PM »
How is it fair that my vote counts less than someone elseís?  The EC needs to go away.

Damn straight!  The country should just be run by the coasts and the districts in the middle should stfu.

Of course not, the country should be run by its people, each person receiving one vote.  Should we also give rich people extra votes just so the poor and middle class  don't run the country?

according to many of the founding fathers, the answer would be an emphatic, "Yes."

And that is exactly the problem with system they created, and the reason I think it should be changed.  We're not the same country we were back then.

I don't know if direct democracy is good for the country, but it's certainly fair.

And if we are really going to weight votes "for the good of the country," we should probably do it by education and intelligence, not by geography.

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #510 on: December 13, 2016, 12:17:34 PM »

I don't know if direct democracy is good for the country, but it's certainly fair.

And if we are really going to weight votes "for the good of the country," we should probably do it by education and intelligence, not by geography.

Ah yes - diplomas and intelligence quotients instead of voter id's.  Certainly that will not disenfranchise large swaths of the population.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #511 on: December 13, 2016, 12:18:09 PM »

Damn straight!  The country should just be run by the coasts and the districts in the middle should stfu.

Of course not, the country should be run by its people, each person receiving one vote.  Should we also give rich people extra votes just so the poor and middle class  don't run the country?

according to many of the founding fathers, the answer would be an emphatic, "Yes."

And that is exactly the problem with system they created, and the reason I think it should be changed.  We're not the same country we were back then.

I don't know if direct democracy is good for the country, but it's certainly fair.

And if we are really going to weight votes "for the good of the country," we should probably do it by education and intelligence, not by geography.
[/quote]
They tried that with the EC, and that seems to be failing us.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #512 on: December 13, 2016, 12:29:53 PM »

I don't know if direct democracy is good for the country, but it's certainly fair.

And if we are really going to weight votes "for the good of the country," we should probably do it by education and intelligence, not by geography.

Ah yes - diplomas and intelligence quotients instead of voter id's.  Certainly that will not disenfranchise large swaths of the population.

Vox just published the transcript of an interview with a Trump voter. Her family had gone without health insurance for two years before ACA. After ACA, they got insurance, and her husband was diagnosed with non-alcoholic cirrhosis (because he didn't get regular LFTs as recommended for the meds he was on). Now he needs a transplant.

She voted for Trump, and is surprised that they're making a serious run at repealing ACA, and don't appear to have a plan.

It was equal parts sad and infuriating. I don't think she should lose her voting rights, but good god people.

edit: found it http://www.vox.com/2016/12/13/13901874/obamacare-trump-voter-health-insurance-repeal
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

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hoping2retire35

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #513 on: December 13, 2016, 12:34:03 PM »

I don't know if direct democracy is good for the country, but it's certainly fair.

And if we are really going to weight votes "for the good of the country," we should probably do it by education and intelligence, not by geography.

Ah yes - diplomas and intelligence quotients instead of voter id's.  Certainly that will not disenfranchise large swaths of the population.

Whoa! never thought HRC losing would get the libs to think we need to bring back Jim Crow.

I guess if we are being honest they would want it more of an oligarchy. something like only those with graduate level education and answering a few questions 'correctly.'

"Do you agree with the following statements..."



edit; not just picking on you DC, people have been alluding to this for a while now in the this thread, and others.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2016, 12:36:56 PM by hoping2retire35 »

dragoncar

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #514 on: December 13, 2016, 12:35:23 PM »
There are no such requirements to become an elector, are there?

And metric, yes it's ridiculous but that's my point.  If you are going to make arbitrary weights, at least make the ones that will prevent the inherent problems of mob rule

Kris

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #515 on: December 13, 2016, 12:35:50 PM »

I don't know if direct democracy is good for the country, but it's certainly fair.

And if we are really going to weight votes "for the good of the country," we should probably do it by education and intelligence, not by geography.

Ah yes - diplomas and intelligence quotients instead of voter id's.  Certainly that will not disenfranchise large swaths of the population.

Whoa! never thought HRC losing would get the libs to think we need to bring back Jim Crow.

I guess if we are being honest they would want it more of an oligarchy. something like only those with graduate level education and answering a few questions 'correctly.'

"Do you agree with the following statements..."

I'm pretty sure Dragoncar was not actually advocating this...
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

dragoncar

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #516 on: December 13, 2016, 12:36:37 PM »

I don't know if direct democracy is good for the country, but it's certainly fair.

And if we are really going to weight votes "for the good of the country," we should probably do it by education and intelligence, not by geography.

Ah yes - diplomas and intelligence quotients instead of voter id's.  Certainly that will not disenfranchise large swaths of the population.

Whoa! never thought HRC losing would get the libs to think we need to bring back Jim Crow.

I guess if we are being honest they would want it more of an oligarchy. something like only those with graduate level education and answering a few questions 'correctly.'

"Do you agree with the following statements..."

This characterization is as preposterous as saying conservatives want only billionaires to run the country... oh wait

hoping2retire35

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #517 on: December 13, 2016, 12:58:42 PM »
Well, you are not going to get enough states to agree to break up the EC, so the next best option is to break up california.

HRC won it by a margin almost twice her national lead, in absolute numbers. Nationally;1.3, Cali; 3.4.

every additional state would automatically get two additional senators and EC votes. It would be a new blue wall.

thrice
« Last Edit: December 13, 2016, 02:08:48 PM by hoping2retire35 »

dragoncar

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #518 on: December 13, 2016, 01:03:57 PM »
Well, you are not going to get enough states to agree to break up the EC, so the next best option is to break up california.

HRC won it by a margin almost twice her national lead, in absolute numbers. Nationally;1.3, Cali; 3.4.

every additional state would automatically get two additional senators and EC votes. It would be a new blue wall.

only if divided in horizontal slices (with each slide including coast).  Vertical slices would create a red wall

NoStacheOhio

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #519 on: December 13, 2016, 01:06:48 PM »
Well, you are not going to get enough states to agree to break up the EC, so the next best option is to break up california.

HRC won it by a margin almost twice her national lead, in absolute numbers. Nationally;1.3, Cali; 3.4.

every additional state would automatically get two additional senators and EC votes. It would be a new blue wall.

Speaking of new states ... in reading through the 2016 Republican platform, I noticed support for Puerto Rican statehood, which I thought was odd. The only explanation I could come up (and supported by no actual knowledge or facts) was that maybe there's a large population of Catholics who would vote Republican based on abortion?
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BuffaloStache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #520 on: December 13, 2016, 01:18:41 PM »
only if divided in horizontal slices (with each slide including coast).  Vertical slices would create a red wall

This. I spent almost a year in Eastern California  (the desert), and never encountered so many angry conservatives in my life.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #521 on: December 13, 2016, 01:28:19 PM »

I don't know if direct democracy is good for the country, but it's certainly fair.

And if we are really going to weight votes "for the good of the country," we should probably do it by education and intelligence, not by geography.

Ah yes - diplomas and intelligence quotients instead of voter id's.  Certainly that will not disenfranchise large swaths of the population.

If it makes you feel better we could just get a couple celebrities telling the public that voting gave their kid autism . . . the net effect would be the same.  Millions of stupid people stop voting.

bacchi

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #522 on: December 13, 2016, 01:32:31 PM »
Vox just published the transcript of an interview with a Trump voter. Her family had gone without health insurance for two years before ACA. After ACA, they got insurance, and her husband was diagnosed with non-alcoholic cirrhosis (because he didn't get regular LFTs as recommended for the meds he was on). Now he needs a transplant.

She voted for Trump, and is surprised that they're making a serious run at repealing ACA, and don't appear to have a plan.

It was equal parts sad and infuriating. I don't think she should lose her voting rights, but good god people.

edit: found it http://www.vox.com/2016/12/13/13901874/obamacare-trump-voter-health-insurance-repeal

She thought it was one of those "He didn't really mean it when he said..." statements that wasn't supposed to be literal.

You reap what you sow.

jim555

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #523 on: December 13, 2016, 01:50:08 PM »
Vox just published the transcript of an interview with a Trump voter. Her family had gone without health insurance for two years before ACA. After ACA, they got insurance, and her husband was diagnosed with non-alcoholic cirrhosis (because he didn't get regular LFTs as recommended for the meds he was on). Now he needs a transplant.

She voted for Trump, and is surprised that they're making a serious run at repealing ACA, and don't appear to have a plan.

It was equal parts sad and infuriating. I don't think she should lose her voting rights, but good god people.

edit: found it http://www.vox.com/2016/12/13/13901874/obamacare-trump-voter-health-insurance-repeal

She thought it was one of those "He didn't really mean it when he said..." statements that wasn't supposed to be literal.

You reap what you sow.

Reminds me of a story I read last year.  Man losing sight blames Obamacare.  He didn't sign up in open enrollment and his state didn't expand Medicaid.  Yet he is still a Republican.
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/health-care/article20696283.html

asiljoy

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #524 on: December 13, 2016, 03:57:44 PM »
Well, you are not going to get enough states to agree to break up the EC, so the next best option is to break up california.

HRC won it by a margin almost twice her national lead, in absolute numbers. Nationally;1.3, Cali; 3.4.

every additional state would automatically get two additional senators and EC votes. It would be a new blue wall.

thrice

Would letting the House grow proportionally a la something like the Wyoming Rule also work, since it would also increase the number of electors and even out the ratio so Californians are back to having similar power per vote as the smaller states?

dividendman

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #525 on: December 13, 2016, 04:39:48 PM »
These are all wonderful ideas.

Of course the problem with electoral reform is that you first have to win (usually some kind of super-majority) in the current way. If you win in the current way.... why do you want to change it again? And so it goes...

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #526 on: December 13, 2016, 04:40:53 PM »
What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?

Quote from: from another forum
Rachel Maddow previewing new allegations that a foreign govt has threatened his business interests to get preferential treatment.

Trump Towers in Istanbul - company that built it - Erdogan of course is involved. And Trump brought it up in his congrats call. Good watch. Crazy. And it's just one of a hundred of these things.


http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/newsweek-trump-business-conflicts-open-us-to-foreign-blackmail-831475267951

But the bonkers part? Erdogan is (allegedly) using it as leverage to get Gulan extradited.

Shocked, I am!

ender

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #527 on: December 13, 2016, 05:47:26 PM »
Reminds me of a story I read last year.  Man losing sight blames Obamacare.  He didn't sign up in open enrollment and his state didn't expand Medicaid.  Yet he is still a Republican.
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/health-care/article20696283.html

There are plenty of people who are rather vocal about feeling they should pay more in taxes than they do -- but who don't voluntarily do so.

Plenty of people have incompatible beliefs on both the R and D side of the aisle.


FXF

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #528 on: December 13, 2016, 06:29:39 PM »
Reminds me of a story I read last year.  Man losing sight blames Obamacare.  He didn't sign up in open enrollment and his state didn't expand Medicaid.  Yet he is still a Republican.
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/health-care/article20696283.html

There are plenty of people who are rather vocal about feeling they should pay more in taxes than they do -- but who don't voluntarily do so.

Plenty of people have incompatible beliefs on both the R and D side of the aisle.

Wait wait wait, there is a massive difference between thinking one (and others in one's situation) should pay more taxes and 'voluntarily' doing so.

I strongly believe I could easily afford higher taxes and would gladly do so if this would lead to a fairer and better society overall. But voluntarily paying more tax (as if that were even possible) wouldn't change a thing and not lead to a more just tax code.

ender

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #529 on: December 13, 2016, 06:38:25 PM »
Wait wait wait, there is a massive difference between thinking one (and others in one's situation) should pay more taxes and 'voluntarily' doing so.

I strongly believe I could easily afford higher taxes and would gladly do so if this would lead to a fairer and better society overall. But voluntarily paying more tax (as if that were even possible) wouldn't change a thing and not lead to a more just tax code.

You believe A but voluntarily choose to act contrary to A for <justifications>.

I get that it's different than another person choosing to act differently than his beliefs. Or something.

dragoncar

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #530 on: December 13, 2016, 06:48:29 PM »
Reminds me of a story I read last year.  Man losing sight blames Obamacare.  He didn't sign up in open enrollment and his state didn't expand Medicaid.  Yet he is still a Republican.
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/health-care/article20696283.html

There are plenty of people who are rather vocal about feeling they should pay more in taxes than they do -- but who don't voluntarily do so.

Plenty of people have incompatible beliefs on both the R and D side of the aisle.

First, people rarely feel that they personally should pay more in taxes, but fail to do so.  They feel that the tax framework should be different, despite the fact that they would end up having to pay more in taxes.  This is a well studied issue called collective action.

Second, blaming Obamacare for health problems while not taking advantage of Obamacare is equivalent to me complaining my taxes are too high while declining tax deductions passed by republicans and blaming the republicans to boot.  Nobody does that and your parallel is not apt.

waltworks

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #531 on: December 13, 2016, 07:27:41 PM »
Look up "collective action problem".

It makes no sense to voluntarily pay more for some social services unless you know that others will. In fact, that's how *all of society* works! Since it's in your self-interest to free-ride, we have something called a government that makes rules to ensure that public goods are paid for by... the public.

The whole "why don't you pay more taxes then" argument is stupid, because all of human civilization is built on the idea that, in fact, you can't trust people to contribute their fair share without some sort of authority to make them do it.

-W

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #532 on: December 14, 2016, 08:15:37 AM »
Look up "collective action problem".

It makes no sense to voluntarily pay more for some social services unless you know that others will. In fact, that's how *all of society* works! Since it's in your self-interest to free-ride, we have something called a government that makes rules to ensure that public goods are paid for by... the public.

The whole "why don't you pay more taxes then" argument is stupid, because all of human civilization is built on the idea that, in fact, you can't trust people to contribute their fair share without some sort of authority to make them do it.

-W

Maybe I am interpreting this wrong but people give to charity all the time without some authority making them do it.

Gin1984

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #533 on: December 14, 2016, 08:21:42 AM »
Look up "collective action problem".

It makes no sense to voluntarily pay more for some social services unless you know that others will. In fact, that's how *all of society* works! Since it's in your self-interest to free-ride, we have something called a government that makes rules to ensure that public goods are paid for by... the public.

The whole "why don't you pay more taxes then" argument is stupid, because all of human civilization is built on the idea that, in fact, you can't trust people to contribute their fair share without some sort of authority to make them do it.

-W

Maybe I am interpreting this wrong but people give to charity all the time without some authority making them do it.
Many religions make donations part of being a good person/going into heaven so I would consider that come authority making them. 

Pooplips

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #534 on: December 14, 2016, 08:34:16 AM »
Look up "collective action problem".

It makes no sense to voluntarily pay more for some social services unless you know that others will. In fact, that's how *all of society* works! Since it's in your self-interest to free-ride, we have something called a government that makes rules to ensure that public goods are paid for by... the public.

The whole "why don't you pay more taxes then" argument is stupid, because all of human civilization is built on the idea that, in fact, you can't trust people to contribute their fair share without some sort of authority to make them do it.

-W

Maybe I am interpreting this wrong but people give to charity all the time without some authority making them do it.
Many religions make donations part of being a good person/going into heaven so I would consider that come authority making them.

Non-religious people (or people who are religious but are not required to give charity) give to charity all the time without some authority making them do it. /Correction

bananarama

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #535 on: December 14, 2016, 08:34:57 AM »
Look up "collective action problem".

It makes no sense to voluntarily pay more for some social services unless you know that others will. In fact, that's how *all of society* works! Since it's in your self-interest to free-ride, we have something called a government that makes rules to ensure that public goods are paid for by... the public.

The whole "why don't you pay more taxes then" argument is stupid, because all of human civilization is built on the idea that, in fact, you can't trust people to contribute their fair share without some sort of authority to make them do it.

-W

Maybe I am interpreting this wrong but people give to charity all the time without some authority making them do it.
I think you did interpret it wrong. It's not that Americans donít give to charity, because we do. It's that no charity is large enough or has enough money to tackle nationwide problems. Also, the freeloader problem is still a problem. Also, plenty of people are threatened with eternal damnation and torture their entire childhoods and still manage to give zero fucks, so I don't think that's really an effective way to get people to part with their money.

Also, it's kind of a silly argument. Sure, people donate to charities all the time. Charities, however, aren't going to run school districts, inspect buildings for code (safety) violations, pave roads, run libraries, clean and maintain parks, enforce laws, care for orphans, create and inforce regulation protecting our health, etc. Taxes force everyone to pay their fair share of resources they either use directly themselves or that others currently use and they might someday use themselves.

Pooplips

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #536 on: December 14, 2016, 08:46:29 AM »
Look up "collective action problem".

It makes no sense to voluntarily pay more for some social services unless you know that others will. In fact, that's how *all of society* works! Since it's in your self-interest to free-ride, we have something called a government that makes rules to ensure that public goods are paid for by... the public.

The whole "why don't you pay more taxes then" argument is stupid, because all of human civilization is built on the idea that, in fact, you can't trust people to contribute their fair share without some sort of authority to make them do it.

-W

Maybe I am interpreting this wrong but people give to charity all the time without some authority making them do it.
I think you did interpret it wrong. It's not that Americans donít give to charity, because we do. It's that no charity is large enough or has enough money to tackle nationwide problems. Also, the freeloader problem is still a problem. Also, plenty of people are threatened with eternal damnation and torture their entire childhoods and still manage to give zero fucks, so I don't think that's really an effective way to get people to part with their money.

Also, it's kind of a silly argument. Sure, people donate to charities all the time. Charities, however, aren't going to run school districts, inspect buildings for code (safety) violations, pave roads, run libraries, clean and maintain parks, enforce laws, care for orphans, create and inforce regulation protecting our health, etc. Taxes force everyone to pay their fair share of resources they either use directly themselves or that others currently use and they might someday use themselves.

I understand waht you are saying. Charities have run schools, libraries, hospitals and taken care of orphans in the past. Actually, other than "enforce laws" the free market could handle everything else.

waltworks

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #537 on: December 14, 2016, 08:54:45 AM »
Interesting that the "enforce laws only" societies have failed to outcompete the "solve the freerider problem by taxing people and building infrastructure/ensuring the common good" ones.

I mean, just weird, right?

-W

Pooplips

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #538 on: December 14, 2016, 08:58:50 AM »
Interesting that the "enforce laws only" societies have failed to outcompete the "solve the freerider problem by taxing people and building infrastructure/ensuring the common good" ones.

I mean, just weird, right?

-W

What societies are you speaking of? The early stages of US society could be considered a "enforce laws only" society. The railroad industry and infrastructure was built without government tax money.

waltworks

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #539 on: December 14, 2016, 08:59:24 AM »
Haha. All of them right now.

-W

GuitarStv

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #540 on: December 14, 2016, 09:14:57 AM »
Interesting that the "enforce laws only" societies have failed to outcompete the "solve the freerider problem by taxing people and building infrastructure/ensuring the common good" ones.

I mean, just weird, right?

-W

What societies are you speaking of? The early stages of US society could be considered a "enforce laws only" society. The railroad industry and infrastructure was built without government tax money.

The early railroad industry in the US is a great example of what happens when you allow free markets to determine things.

A whole bunch of railways were built.  Then the people who had built them became very wealthy, developed a monopoly, fixed prices, and raised prices to the point that they were strangling US development.  The problem became so bad that the American people forced the government to respond to the regular abuses of power.  That's why anti-trust legislation the ICC and Sherman Antitrust Act first came about.

bananarama

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #541 on: December 14, 2016, 09:16:01 AM »
Interesting that the "enforce laws only" societies have failed to outcompete the "solve the freerider problem by taxing people and building infrastructure/ensuring the common good" ones.

I mean, just weird, right?

-W

lol. Yes.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'd really not like to back to the Industrial Revolution and the quagmire of shit that was. No environmental protects, being unable to pay your debts (for whatever reason) was a criminal offense, orphanages were horrific, workers had no rights (and becoming dead due to working conditions was not terribly unusual), and slums were a reality. The church didn't help then, why would it make any real difference now?

Sometimes I feel like that's what the small government people really want - because the America of the 1800s certainly had fewer regulations and much more power in the hands of industry. It didn't work out so well for anybody not already a part of the industrial elite, but who knows. Maybe next time it'll be different?  Seriously, go look a some photos of London in the 19th century or New York slums or conditions in church run orphanages. Or even church run prisons (some of which were even intended to be /more/ humane than other options).

Interesting that the "enforce laws only" societies have failed to outcompete the "solve the freerider problem by taxing people and building infrastructure/ensuring the common good" ones.

I mean, just weird, right?

-W

What societies are you speaking of? The early stages of US society could be considered a "enforce laws only" society. The railroad industry and infrastructure was built without government tax money.

The early years of the US is not a golden era to harken back to, in any manner for any reason. It was a period of time that happened and was improved upon by subsequent generations. Your nostalgia glasses should be replaced by a thorough investigation of the actual realities of those years - and as a poor worker, not as a member of the class of elites whose names fill our history books. 

As for currently existing societies I can't name any - I honestly don't think any exist.

deadlymonkey

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #542 on: December 14, 2016, 09:21:35 AM »
Early railroads were privately owned, but don't fool yourself into thinking they weren't government financed. 
In reference to the intercontinental railroad:
Their efforts led to the Pacific Railroad Acts of 1862 and 1864, which provided several forms of assistance. Each railroad received its right-of-way along with a land grant of ten alternating sections on both sides of every mile of track (about 12,800 acres per mile); the government retained the sections in between. In addition, the companies received government bonds totaling $16,000 a mile for each twenty-mile section of track completed on the plains. For the plateau between the Rocky and Sierra Nevada Mountains the amount per mile went up to $32,000 per mile and for the mountain regions, $48,000. Each company could also issue its own first mortgage bonds for the same amount as the government bonds, relegating the latter to a second mortgage.

Pooplips

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #543 on: December 14, 2016, 09:41:07 AM »
I'm not saying I want to go back to an 1800's society. What I am saying is our rate of growth and our ability to outcompete other contries was better due to the lack of goverment intervention.

The pacific railroad acts could very well have aided in the monopolies that were created. Once railroads started spanning the US, the government began deciding where railroads should be built to reduce redundancy and used financing to accomplish those goals. This led to other players in the market not being able to compete with government funded projects. With one rail servicing a few areas the rail company could charge whatever they wanted. That lead to ICC.

Gin1984

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #544 on: December 14, 2016, 09:42:56 AM »
Look up "collective action problem".

It makes no sense to voluntarily pay more for some social services unless you know that others will. In fact, that's how *all of society* works! Since it's in your self-interest to free-ride, we have something called a government that makes rules to ensure that public goods are paid for by... the public.

The whole "why don't you pay more taxes then" argument is stupid, because all of human civilization is built on the idea that, in fact, you can't trust people to contribute their fair share without some sort of authority to make them do it.

-W

Maybe I am interpreting this wrong but people give to charity all the time without some authority making them do it.
Many religions make donations part of being a good person/going into heaven so I would consider that come authority making them.

Non-religious people (or people who are religious but are not required to give charity) give to charity all the time without some authority making them do it. /Correction
Except that our culture is one built around this ideal.

Pooplips

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #545 on: December 14, 2016, 09:44:23 AM »
Health and environmental issues are different all together. Many of the things we now know are bad for us weren't even discovered then. Modern med and environmental understand has exploded in the last 50 years.

Poundwise

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #546 on: December 14, 2016, 10:01:31 AM »
Look up "collective action problem".

It makes no sense to voluntarily pay more for some social services unless you know that others will. In fact, that's how *all of society* works! Since it's in your self-interest to free-ride, we have something called a government that makes rules to ensure that public goods are paid for by... the public.

The whole "why don't you pay more taxes then" argument is stupid, because all of human civilization is built on the idea that, in fact, you can't trust people to contribute their fair share without some sort of authority to make them do it.

-W

Maybe I am interpreting this wrong but people give to charity all the time without some authority making them do it.
I think you did interpret it wrong. It's not that Americans donít give to charity, because we do. It's that no charity is large enough or has enough money to tackle nationwide problems. Also, the freeloader problem is still a problem. Also, plenty of people are threatened with eternal damnation and torture their entire childhoods and still manage to give zero fucks, so I don't think that's really an effective way to get people to part with their money.

Also, it's kind of a silly argument. Sure, people donate to charities all the time. Charities, however, aren't going to run school districts, inspect buildings for code (safety) violations, pave roads, run libraries, clean and maintain parks, enforce laws, care for orphans, create and inforce regulation protecting our health, etc. Taxes force everyone to pay their fair share of resources they either use directly themselves or that others currently use and they might someday use themselves.

I understand waht you are saying. Charities have run schools, libraries, hospitals and taken care of orphans in the past. Actually, other than "enforce laws" the free market could handle everything else.

I've read that Americans are one of the most charitable peoples in the world (in terms of percentage of people self-reporting as having donated to charity, volunteered, or helped a stranger.)

That said, one issue with charities vs. government agencies is coverage.  Sure, it's great if you have a NGO food pantry or church hospital in a community. But what if you don't?  Government services may not be great but at least they are available to everyone in the state. Whereas although private charities may be served with passion and care, coverage will be patchy. 

Anyway, there is room for both government and privately administered groups to work... there is certainly no lack of problems to solve, and Americans definitely have enough spare money to help all, or would if people weren't greedy (it was estimated that in 2006 alone, Americans owed $450 billion more in taxes than they actually paid, possibly due to black market activity and tax havens.)

Let government establish a decent baseline of nutrition, shelter, health, safety, and education for all, and then there is plenty of opportunity for private/free market initiatives to raise quality of life beyond that.

« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 10:08:47 AM by Poundwise »

GuitarStv

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #547 on: December 14, 2016, 11:00:33 AM »
I'm not saying I want to go back to an 1800's society. What I am saying is our rate of growth and our ability to outcompete other contries was better due to the lack of goverment intervention.

The pacific railroad acts could very well have aided in the monopolies that were created. Once railroads started spanning the US, the government began deciding where railroads should be built to reduce redundancy and used financing to accomplish those goals. This led to other players in the market not being able to compete with government funded projects. With one rail servicing a few areas the rail company could charge whatever they wanted. That lead to ICC.

So, the example that you picked as a triumph of private industry was railroads.  Now you're saying these same railroads weren't actually an example of private industry.  It turns out that the government was necessary to get the railways working as quickly as they did.

What exactly is your preferred solution to the problem?  There are three possible ways for things to go:
- No government intervention (so no railways are built, or they're built too slowly for the needs of the US).
- More government intervention (additional government hand-outs would probably allow for greater competition).
- No change to the policy of limited government intervention where needed and then regulation when businessmen become too greedy and start hurting the country.

Pooplips

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #548 on: December 14, 2016, 11:47:07 AM »
I'm not saying I want to go back to an 1800's society. What I am saying is our rate of growth and our ability to outcompete other contries was better due to the lack of goverment intervention.

The pacific railroad acts could very well have aided in the monopolies that were created. Once railroads started spanning the US, the government began deciding where railroads should be built to reduce redundancy and used financing to accomplish those goals. This led to other players in the market not being able to compete with government funded projects. With one rail servicing a few areas the rail company could charge whatever they wanted. That lead to ICC.

So, the example that you picked as a triumph of private industry was railroads.  Now you're saying these same railroads weren't actually an example of private industry.  It turns out that the government was necessary to get the railways working as quickly as they did.

What exactly is your preferred solution to the problem?  There are three possible ways for things to go:
- No government intervention (so no railways are built, or they're built too slowly for the needs of the US).
- More government intervention (additional government hand-outs would probably allow for greater competition).
- No change to the policy of limited government intervention where needed and then regulation when businessmen become too greedy and start hurting the country.

No, I'm saying the railroads the government chose to fund weren't an example of private industry. Those railroads weren't being built because they were most likely not profitable, hence why the goverment had to assist in funding the projects. If they were going to be profitable, someone would have built them.

Why do you assume that if there was no government intervention they would have been built too slowly for the needs of the US?

What is interesting is that in the mid 20th century the railroad industry was deregulated for its survival which led to a massive shift in the amount of rail being maintained, led to huge reductions in passenger cars and an increase in freight cars because of the automobile. In my opinion, based on the information I have gathered, the pricing model acts much quicker and is much more effiecient that the central planning model.

Edit: In what way were buisness men too greedy and hurt the country?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 11:48:52 AM by Pooplips »

waltworks

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #549 on: December 14, 2016, 12:15:28 PM »
You're quibbling now, but it's nice to see that you recognize that there are some situations in which a group of self-interested individuals left to their own devices don't produce an optimal outcome.

Look, everyone understands (even super hardcore libertarians) that things like law enforcement, national defense, courts, and basic infrastructure are best handled by the government (at one level or another, doesn't have to be the feds). Everyone probably (even the most hardcore collectivist) also agrees that there are a bunch of things that the government sucks at (business/profit driven enterprise, picking winners and losers, etc) and we have lots of historical examples of failed communist/very collectivist (Venezuela!) economies.

Then there are problems like pollution where the market doesn't price in the cost to society very well, and things like healthcare where you can debate on and on whether a free market can function well.

But the basic idea that you need some central authority to deal with some things is really not controversial. It's the middle-ground stuff that is interesting (climate change would be a great example - are businesses capable of pricing in the potential consequences? One would thing rationally that the possibility of the entire economy crashing would be a deterrent to business as usual...), not the idea that you need a robust government to make basic things run well.

-W