Author Topic: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?  (Read 216685 times)

Kris

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #400 on: December 06, 2016, 05:40:39 PM »
I'll take Ryan, I'll take Cruz, I'll even take Ronald Reagan's reanimated corpse.

Those folks disagree with me on policies but are honorable people who I respect. They want what is best for America, even if I think the way they want to go about it won't work well.

Trump, who has no policies anyone can comprehend, is a different story.

-W

Completely agree. Shit, I would have even contemplated voting for Kasich. He was such a whiny asshole during the primary season it made me sad. But he would jave been a fine president.

Trump?

I still can't believe there are actually people in the world who argue he will not take a massive dump all over our country, then walk away and wipe his ass with gold leaf TP.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #401 on: December 06, 2016, 05:48:40 PM »
I'll take Ryan, I'll take Cruz, I'll even take Ronald Reagan's reanimated corpse.

Those folks disagree with me on policies but are honorable people who I respect. They want what is best for America, even if I think the way they want to go about it won't work well.

Trump, who has no policies anyone can comprehend, is a different story.

-W

Completely agree. Shit, I would have even contemplated voting for Kasich. He was such a whiny asshole during the primary season it made me sad. But he would jave been a fine president.

Trump?

I still can't believe there are actually people in the world who argue he will not take a massive dump all over our country, then walk away and wipe his ass with gold leaf TP.

Right? I'm sure no matter what kind of President he is, he'll walk away wiping his ass with gold tp. Im still in shock that no other political party could field a candidate that could beat him. This is what makes me even sadder than the fact that he'll be terrible, that there were no other options that were significantly better to the point that people in enough states would turn out for them.
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MustacheMathTM

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #402 on: December 06, 2016, 06:47:33 PM »
I'll take Ryan, I'll take Cruz, I'll even take Ronald Reagan's reanimated corpse.

Those folks disagree with me on policies but are honorable people who I respect. They want what is best for America, even if I think the way they want to go about it won't work well.

Trump, who has no policies anyone can comprehend, is a different story.

-W

Completely agree. Shit, I would have even contemplated voting for Kasich. He was such a whiny asshole during the primary season it made me sad. But he would jave been a fine president.

Trump?

I still can't believe there are actually people in the world who argue he will not take a massive dump all over our country, then walk away and wipe his ass with gold leaf TP.

Agree!  No matter what happens, he and his family are going to end up extremely rich, like Bill Gates/Warren Buffett rich, at the expense of everyone else.  Everyone who tries to claim he was there already, I call BS - why would he whore himself on Trump U, The Apprentice and all the other stupid shit if he was already as rich as he claims.  I truly hope we are not headed for some scary times, but I think it is inevitable.  I'd be thrilled to say I was wrong. 

NoStacheOhio

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #403 on: December 07, 2016, 06:02:25 AM »
I'll take Ryan, I'll take Cruz, I'll even take Ronald Reagan's reanimated corpse.

Those folks disagree with me on policies but are honorable people who I respect. They want what is best for America, even if I think the way they want to go about it won't work well.

Trump, who has no policies anyone can comprehend, is a different story.

-W

Completely agree. Shit, I would have even contemplated voting for Kasich. He was such a whiny asshole during the primary season it made me sad. But he would jave been a fine president.

Trump?

I still can't believe there are actually people in the world who argue he will not take a massive dump all over our country, then walk away and wipe his ass with gold leaf TP.

Having lived through Gov. Kasich "balancing" our state budget by simply not paying for shit, and leaving local government to figure out how to replace services with no money, I completely agree.
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golden1

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #404 on: December 07, 2016, 06:35:38 AM »
Yep, I keep trying to explain to people that this isn't just me being a "sore loser".  I have been on the losing side of elections before, and while I was grumpy, I didn't feel this level of near terror and sadness.  And the hits just seem to keep on coming.  I really would have been okay with any other of the primary candidates short of Cruz and Carson.  Rubio, Jeb, Kasich, all would have been okay. 

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #405 on: December 07, 2016, 06:50:05 AM »
Trump is Time's "Person of the Year". Interesting.
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MustacheMathTM

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #406 on: December 07, 2016, 08:00:48 AM »
Trump is Time's "Person of the Year". Interesting.

He certainly made an impact on 2016.
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Kris

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #407 on: December 07, 2016, 08:11:48 AM »
Trump is Time's "Person of the Year". Interesting.

As was Hitler, shortly after he came to power.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #408 on: December 07, 2016, 08:13:52 AM »
Trump is Time's "Person of the Year". Interesting.

As was Hitler, shortly after he came to power.

As was Ghandi.
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MustacheMathTM

Kris

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #409 on: December 07, 2016, 08:48:03 AM »
Trump is Time's "Person of the Year". Interesting.

As was Hitler, shortly after he came to power.

As was Ghandi.

As was Stalin. The person of the year is not meant to be an endorsement, good or bad, of the person. Just someone who has been a major influence. Famous or infamous.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

SisterX

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #410 on: December 07, 2016, 09:41:28 AM »
Yep, I keep trying to explain to people that this isn't just me being a "sore loser".  I have been on the losing side of elections before, and while I was grumpy, I didn't feel this level of near terror and sadness.  And the hits just seem to keep on coming.  I really would have been okay with any other of the primary candidates short of Cruz and Carson.  Rubio, Jeb, Kasich, all would have been okay.

I find myself really, really hoping that Romney is our Secretary of State. My biggest problem with him was simply that he'd been so rich for so long that he didn't seem to realize his normal was not everyone else's normal. But, I think he'd make a fantastic Sec of State.

Which is completely at odds with my disgust of him and all the other Repubs who mocked Trump during the election, openly stated that he'd be terrible for the country, and are now falling all over themselves to curry favor. Sniveling cowards. Putting party politics ahead of what you know to be bad for the country is just...I don't even have words for how much I hate them at this moment.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #411 on: December 07, 2016, 10:21:16 AM »
Yep, I keep trying to explain to people that this isn't just me being a "sore loser".  I have been on the losing side of elections before, and while I was grumpy, I didn't feel this level of near terror and sadness.  And the hits just seem to keep on coming.  I really would have been okay with any other of the primary candidates short of Cruz and Carson.  Rubio, Jeb, Kasich, all would have been okay.

I find myself really, really hoping that Romney is our Secretary of State. My biggest problem with him was simply that he'd been so rich for so long that he didn't seem to realize his normal was not everyone else's normal. But, I think he'd make a fantastic Sec of State.

Which is completely at odds with my disgust of him and all the other Repubs who mocked Trump during the election, openly stated that he'd be terrible for the country, and are now falling all over themselves to curry favor. Sniveling cowards. Putting party politics ahead of what you know to be bad for the country is just...I don't even have words for how much I hate them at this moment.

Apparently they're looking at the CEO of XOM now for State. Which is just thrilling.

/sarcasm
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RangerOne

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #412 on: December 07, 2016, 04:22:05 PM »
Yep, I keep trying to explain to people that this isn't just me being a "sore loser".  I have been on the losing side of elections before, and while I was grumpy, I didn't feel this level of near terror and sadness.  And the hits just seem to keep on coming.  I really would have been okay with any other of the primary candidates short of Cruz and Carson.  Rubio, Jeb, Kasich, all would have been okay.

I find myself really, really hoping that Romney is our Secretary of State. My biggest problem with him was simply that he'd been so rich for so long that he didn't seem to realize his normal was not everyone else's normal. But, I think he'd make a fantastic Sec of State.

Which is completely at odds with my disgust of him and all the other Repubs who mocked Trump during the election, openly stated that he'd be terrible for the country, and are now falling all over themselves to curry favor. Sniveling cowards. Putting party politics ahead of what you know to be bad for the country is just...I don't even have words for how much I hate them at this moment.

I don't begrudge or feel sadness to see politicians who criticized Trump flocking to him. If he is going to be president I damn well want people in his cabinet who thought well enough of themselves and the country to condemn him during the election.

But now is not the time to stand only on principle. Now is the time to suck it up and play the politician and work to keep shit together that Trump doesn't understand.

If all the Repubs simply refuse to work with him then you are going to get a rogue executive branch listening to god knows who filled with Trump sycophants who are probably the only people I have less respect for than Trump.

SisterX

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #413 on: December 07, 2016, 05:04:15 PM »
Yep, I keep trying to explain to people that this isn't just me being a "sore loser".  I have been on the losing side of elections before, and while I was grumpy, I didn't feel this level of near terror and sadness.  And the hits just seem to keep on coming.  I really would have been okay with any other of the primary candidates short of Cruz and Carson.  Rubio, Jeb, Kasich, all would have been okay.

I find myself really, really hoping that Romney is our Secretary of State. My biggest problem with him was simply that he'd been so rich for so long that he didn't seem to realize his normal was not everyone else's normal. But, I think he'd make a fantastic Sec of State.

Which is completely at odds with my disgust of him and all the other Repubs who mocked Trump during the election, openly stated that he'd be terrible for the country, and are now falling all over themselves to curry favor. Sniveling cowards. Putting party politics ahead of what you know to be bad for the country is just...I don't even have words for how much I hate them at this moment.

Apparently they're looking at the CEO of XOM now for State. Which is just thrilling.

/sarcasm

Oh goodie. And I thought about the worst candidate would be Petraeus. You know, the person who actually leaked classified information and is on probation for it.

Ready to wake up from this nightmare any minute....

RangerOne

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #414 on: December 07, 2016, 07:14:27 PM »
Because that guy guarantees we wont get into any wars over oil.....

bananarama

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #415 on: December 08, 2016, 12:57:40 PM »
Sure, this could put us in a good position in some ways. Right now though, Trump is still a regular citizen so who cares what he says. As president? Might be different, especially if he doesn't leave room for China to come to agreements with us without losing face. They've given him room to let this get dismissed and instead he doubled down.

It's a delicate line to balance, and those examples of that  ”violated decades of US foreign policy" were all relatively mild. We didn't stand to lose anything normalizing relations with China or Cuba and a potential hell of a lot to gain. Destabilizing Pakistan/India or China/Taiwan? Lots more to lose, and a good number of other allies in that area who won't be keen on increasingly strong stances from countries trying to establish new hierarchies and relationships.

President wants to take a hard line? That's fine, we elected him to do the job and he's got the State Department to help him lay out a way forward. However, I'll always be (justifiably) nervous if that President decides twitter is an appropriate place to do diplomatic work (or that his children are acceptable unofficial ambassadors) and who's language is careless, especially when dealing with cultures very different from our own. At some point China (or others) won't be able to downplay things and then the situation will grow in ways we can't imagine now.Or not.

I think it boils down to trust. Looking at his history and considering everything I've read, I am incredibly doubtful that Trump has what it takes to be anything other than an embarrassment. I mean, saving a few jobs (which is good for sure) by giving a company millions (which is bad) can only lead to other companies trying the same tactic.

Interesting thought: I view the job thing as governance by bribe. But then, a lot of attempts to bring new business to an area are essentially bribes. When is the line where it becomes crony capitalism? Is it always crony capitalism?

The only positive I can see from Trump pissing off China is that he and his family might actually have to--gasp!--manufacture their shit products in America.

dycker - yes.

Several Chinese companies have already stated plans to open factories in the United States, beginning production next year.  Arkansas and North Carolina, i believe.

Soo... thanks, Trump?

I looked this up because I was hopeful for a second. Trump or no low skill jobs are important.

From Fortune: "According to Arkansas Business, over the past five years nearly 100,000 manufacturing jobs have been “reshored” to the U.S.—60% of them from China. And states are taking notice of the potential business opportunity." Fortune also reported a paper plant (which fucking stinks, paper plants are awful) is supposed to provide ~2000 jobs in Virginia around 2020.

From CNN: the Arkansas deal was finalized in October, so... not really a Trump victory there. For a 20 million dollar investment and the creation of ~400 jobs a company called Tianyaun "receives a $1 million infrastructure grant, $500,000 for training assistance and a 3.9% annual tax rebate, which comes to about $1.6 million annually."

Everything I've read seems to be part of a trend that was already happening because it's become cheaper to automate in the USA where a good chunk of the customer base is. So, I guess manufacturing might be coming back - but at significantly reduced rates of needed employees and with zero to do with Trump. I worry how easily China based companies might operate in the US if tensions increase.

http://money.cnn.com/2016/11/30/technology/chinese-manufacturers-come-to-america/
http://fortune.com/2016/12/01/this-chinese-manufacturer-is-creating-american-jobs-not-stealing-them/

BuffaloStache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #416 on: December 08, 2016, 05:55:18 PM »
Everything I've read seems to be part of a trend that was already happening because it's become cheaper to automate in the USA where a good chunk of the customer base is.

And guess who will be there taking credit for any case where this occurs?
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GuitarStv

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #417 on: December 08, 2016, 06:13:15 PM »
Everything I've read seems to be part of a trend that was already happening because it's become cheaper to automate in the USA where a good chunk of the customer base is.

And guess who will be there taking credit for any case where this occurs?

Our new robot overlords?

dividendman

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #418 on: December 09, 2016, 12:06:11 AM »
I, for one, welcome our new robot overlords.

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Daleth

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #420 on: December 09, 2016, 04:53:59 AM »
I'll take Ryan, I'll take Cruz, I'll even take Ronald Reagan's reanimated corpse.

Those folks disagree with me on policies but are honorable people who I respect. They want what is best for America, even if I think the way they want to go about it won't work well.

Trump, who has no policies anyone can comprehend, is a different story.

-W

I think the only legitimate option the Electoral College would have, if it wanted to dump Trump and yet not elect Hillary despite the popular vote, is to elect Romney (or at least cast enough votes for Romney to take Trump below 270, throwing the election to the House, and then having the House elect Romney). He's legit because he actually ran for president and got SIXTY-ONE MILLION VOTES in the last election. My vote most emphatically was not among them--viva Obama!--but still, sixty-one million votes in a presidential election, plus the fact that he's sane, experienced, not a religious nut, and apparently reasonably honorable, makes him a legit choice in my book.

KBecks

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #421 on: December 09, 2016, 05:40:37 AM »
There is no way they are going to put in Romney.  I would personally freak and I'm not the only one.  The person who won the election is the new President, period.  You can't undo it.  It's not going to happen. 

I mean, who picks Romney out of the blue?  Who would have the power to decide that?  No, we had an election and the people voted.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #422 on: December 09, 2016, 05:54:11 AM »
There is no way they are going to put in Romney.  I would personally freak and I'm not the only one.  The person who won the election is the new President, period.  You can't undo it.  It's not going to happen. 

I mean, who picks Romney out of the blue?  Who would have the power to decide that?  No, we had an election and the people voted.

What you're arguing for is neither the will of the people, nor in line with the rules of US elections.

Clinton had more of the votes cast for her.  If you're going to argue that the will of the people should rule, you should be arguing that Clinton be given the presidency.

If, on the other hand, you're going to argue that the particular rules of American style democracy should be in effect then you are supporting the possibility of the electoral college overruling Trump's candidacy.

KBecks

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #423 on: December 09, 2016, 05:57:45 AM »
I understand the the Electoral College will vote and that decides the president.  I'm just saying that there is no freaking way that they're picking Romney.  They're going to vote in Trump. 

sol

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #424 on: December 09, 2016, 08:25:12 AM »
No, we had an election and the people voted.

That was an interesting choice of words, considering that "the people" voted for Clinton by approximately 2%.

I agree with you that Trump will be president.  But let's not pretend it's because that is what most Americans wanted.

hoping2retire35

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #425 on: December 09, 2016, 12:19:15 PM »
No, we had an election and the people voted.

That was an interesting choice of words, considering that "the people" voted for Clinton by approximately 2%.

I agree with you that Trump will be president.  But let's not pretend it's because that is what most Americans wanted.

She blew him away in one enclave (LA County) and it is suddenly the "whole country" wants clinton, and California should secede. It is just one messed up state with too many people that skews the whole country.

sol

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #426 on: December 09, 2016, 12:32:24 PM »
It is just one messed up state with too many people that skews the whole country.

I wasn't talking about an enclave, I was talking about how most of the people in the United States voted.  If you ignored the artificially drawn lines and just asked American citizens what they wanted, Clinton would be our next president.

But that's not how we elect presidents in America, land of the free.  In fact, in 40% of the most recent presidential elections, we have elected the person who did NOT get the most votes.

Is everyone really okay with that?  Will we still be okay with it if it starts happening every single time?  Will we be okay with it if we start electing the person who loses the vote by 10%, or by 75%?

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #427 on: December 09, 2016, 12:34:03 PM »
No, we had an election and the people voted.

That was an interesting choice of words, considering that "the people" voted for Clinton by approximately 2%.

I agree with you that Trump will be president.  But let's not pretend it's because that is what most Americans wanted.

Most Americans wanted neither Clinton nor Trump.  Most Americans voted for someone else.  Neither candidate won the popular vote.
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Gin1984

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #428 on: December 09, 2016, 12:37:28 PM »
No, we had an election and the people voted.

That was an interesting choice of words, considering that "the people" voted for Clinton by approximately 2%.

I agree with you that Trump will be president.  But let's not pretend it's because that is what most Americans wanted.

She blew him away in one enclave (LA County) and it is suddenly the "whole country" wants clinton, and California should secede. It is just one messed up state with too many people that skews the whole country.
Actually she won all over California as well as percentage wise in most populous areas. 

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #429 on: December 09, 2016, 12:44:11 PM »
Most Americans wanted neither Clinton nor Trump.  Most Americans voted for someone else.  Neither candidate won the popular vote.

At last count, over 137 million Americans voted and only 7.6 million of them (5.5% of them) voted for anyone other than Clinton or Trump.

Out of the 129 million who voted for Clinton or Trump, more than 65.5 million voted for Clinton while 62.8 million voted for Trump.

http://cookpolitical.com/story/10174

hoping2retire35

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #430 on: December 09, 2016, 12:50:32 PM »
It is just one messed up state with too many people that skews the whole country.

I wasn't talking about an enclave, I was talking about how most of the people in the United States voted.  If you ignored the artificially drawn lines and just asked American citizens what they wanted, Clinton would be our next president.

But that's not how we elect presidents in America, land of the free.  In fact, in 40% of the most recent presidential elections, we have elected the person who did NOT get the most votes.

Is everyone really okay with that?  Will we still be okay with it if it starts happening every single time?  Will we be okay with it if we start electing the person who loses the vote by 10%, or by 75%?

Sometimes people who are 2k miles away from one another do not see things the same way, even if presented with the same information. Those lines can allow greater freedom, except of course when we try to make it just one 300mil person blob.

sol

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #431 on: December 09, 2016, 01:06:57 PM »
Neither candidate won the popular vote.

You keep repeating this lie, and I'm not sure why.  Who are trying to delegitimize?

Clinton won the popular vote, because she got more votes than anyone else.  That's what winning means.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #432 on: December 09, 2016, 01:18:40 PM »
Neither candidate won the popular vote.

You keep repeating this lie, and I'm not sure why.  Who are trying to delegitimize?

Clinton won the popular vote, because she got more votes than anyone else.  That's what winning means.

Long, but worth reading: https://medium.com/@michaelarnovitz/faking-a-mandate-a379c802e540#.wqhy2r83f
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TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #433 on: December 09, 2016, 01:24:14 PM »

Clinton won the popular vote, because she got more votes than anyone else.  That's what winning means.

You keep saying this because you are trying to delegitimize Trump.  I'm not trying to delegitimize anyone.  Getting more votes than anyone else does not constitute winning the popular vote.  Getting a majority of the popular vote is winning.  More people voted for someone else than voted for HRC.  More people voted for someone else than voted for Trump.

There's a thousand different ways to slice the election aside from the actual rules, and only one shows HRC on top.  This erroneous "she won the popular vote" mantra.  By the only metric that matters, the actual rules of the game they were playing, Trump won the election.  If you go by popular vote, nobody won.  If you go by number of states, counties, cities, senators, representatives, state and local governments, republicans won.  None of that matters though, because that's not the game that was being played.  The electoral college could still do its actual fucking job and send it to the House, in which case the Republicans will select a non-trump President, 85% of the population will breathe a huge sigh of relief, 15% will never shut up about it until they die.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #434 on: December 09, 2016, 02:20:28 PM »

Clinton won the popular vote, because she got more votes than anyone else.  That's what winning means.

You keep saying this because you are trying to delegitimize Trump.  I'm not trying to delegitimize anyone.  Getting more votes than anyone else does not constitute winning the popular vote.  Getting a majority of the popular vote is winning.  More people voted for someone else than voted for HRC.  More people voted for someone else than voted for Trump.

There's a thousand different ways to slice the election aside from the actual rules, and only one shows HRC on top.  This erroneous "she won the popular vote" mantra.  By the only metric that matters, the actual rules of the game they were playing, Trump won the election.  If you go by popular vote, nobody won.  If you go by number of states, counties, cities, senators, representatives, state and local governments, republicans won.  None of that matters though, because that's not the game that was being played.  The electoral college could still do its actual fucking job and send it to the House, in which case the Republicans will select a non-trump President, 85% of the population will breathe a huge sigh of relief, 15% will never shut up about it until they die.

Popular vote - the percentage of votes cast by the electorate.

You can argue that too many people couldn't be bothered to vote, so Clinton wasn't voted for by the majority of Americans.  That's perfectly true.  She did win the popular vote though.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #435 on: December 09, 2016, 02:38:08 PM »

Clinton won the popular vote, because she got more votes than anyone else.  That's what winning means.

You keep saying this because you are trying to delegitimize Trump.  I'm not trying to delegitimize anyone.  Getting more votes than anyone else does not constitute winning the popular vote.  Getting a majority of the popular vote is winning.  More people voted for someone else than voted for HRC.  More people voted for someone else than voted for Trump.

There's a thousand different ways to slice the election aside from the actual rules, and only one shows HRC on top.  This erroneous "she won the popular vote" mantra.  By the only metric that matters, the actual rules of the game they were playing, Trump won the election.  If you go by popular vote, nobody won.  If you go by number of states, counties, cities, senators, representatives, state and local governments, republicans won.  None of that matters though, because that's not the game that was being played.  The electoral college could still do its actual fucking job and send it to the House, in which case the Republicans will select a non-trump President, 85% of the population will breathe a huge sigh of relief, 15% will never shut up about it until they die.

Are you honestly trying to argue that winning a majority of votes cast means that she didn't win the popular vote? What the ever living fuck? It was kind of fun to read the mental squirming through that bit of illogic, however.

Also, it wasn't just California that voted mostly for HRC. Even better, if you do the statistics by age my generation overwhelmingly supported Clinton. You know, the young people who will be most affected in the long-term because of Trump's inevitable (at this point) fuckup.

dragoncar

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #436 on: December 09, 2016, 02:46:07 PM »
Clinton didn't win a majority of votes.  Only a plurality.  That's still "winning" in my mind

dividendman

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #437 on: December 09, 2016, 08:28:24 PM »
Clinton didn't win a majority of votes.  Only a plurality.  That's still "winning" in my mind

Yeah, also in parliamentary democracies, when a party has a plurality of the seats, it's called winning and they get the first shot at forming the government. So, both are winning, one is just winning by more.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #438 on: December 12, 2016, 04:49:29 AM »

Clinton won the popular vote, because she got more votes than anyone else.  That's what winning means.

You keep saying this because you are trying to delegitimize Trump.  I'm not trying to delegitimize anyone.  Getting more votes than anyone else does not constitute winning the popular vote.  Getting a majority of the popular vote is winning.  More people voted for someone else than voted for HRC.  More people voted for someone else than voted for Trump.

There's a thousand different ways to slice the election aside from the actual rules, and only one shows HRC on top.  This erroneous "she won the popular vote" mantra.  By the only metric that matters, the actual rules of the game they were playing, Trump won the election.  If you go by popular vote, nobody won.  If you go by number of states, counties, cities, senators, representatives, state and local governments, republicans won.  None of that matters though, because that's not the game that was being played.  The electoral college could still do its actual fucking job and send it to the House, in which case the Republicans will select a non-trump President, 85% of the population will breathe a huge sigh of relief, 15% will never shut up about it until they die.

You're forgetting we're in the post-fact era. Now being very, very slightly less unpopular than your rival is something to be proud of - getting a majority or people to vote for you is apparently no longer the point; simply use whatever slant one can to delegitimize one's opponent, especially if they won fairly.


ETA; still no fuckin' idea why people are still on about the popular vote. It doesn't matter, it never has, and the electoral college is working as designed. Thankfully Hillary Clinton will never be president; sadly Trump will. Write your party, tell them to find better candidates next time.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 04:54:53 AM by Metric Mouse »
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #439 on: December 12, 2016, 04:56:55 AM »
Sometimes people who are 2k miles away from one another do not see things the same way, even if presented with the same information. Those lines can allow greater freedom, except of course when we try to make it just one 300mil person blob.

Great point. I like the argument that those lines allow greater freedom.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #440 on: December 12, 2016, 07:00:50 AM »

Clinton won the popular vote, because she got more votes than anyone else.  That's what winning means.

You keep saying this because you are trying to delegitimize Trump.  I'm not trying to delegitimize anyone.  Getting more votes than anyone else does not constitute winning the popular vote.  Getting a majority of the popular vote is winning.  More people voted for someone else than voted for HRC.  More people voted for someone else than voted for Trump.

There's a thousand different ways to slice the election aside from the actual rules, and only one shows HRC on top.  This erroneous "she won the popular vote" mantra.  By the only metric that matters, the actual rules of the game they were playing, Trump won the election.  If you go by popular vote, nobody won.  If you go by number of states, counties, cities, senators, representatives, state and local governments, republicans won.  None of that matters though, because that's not the game that was being played.  The electoral college could still do its actual fucking job and send it to the House, in which case the Republicans will select a non-trump President, 85% of the population will breathe a huge sigh of relief, 15% will never shut up about it until they die.

You're forgetting we're in the post-fact era. Now being very, very slightly less unpopular than your rival is something to be proud of - getting a majority or people to vote for you is apparently no longer the point; simply use whatever slant one can to delegitimize one's opponent, especially if they won fairly.


ETA; still no fuckin' idea why people are still on about the popular vote. It doesn't matter, it never has, and the electoral college is working as designed. Thankfully Hillary Clinton will never be president; sadly Trump will. Write your party, tell them to find better candidates next time.

While you're correct that the winner of the popular vote doesn't matter and never has, Sol was responding specifically to this comment:

Neither candidate won the popular vote.

That comment is factually incorrect, which Sol pointed out.  Sol brought it up to correct the statement made by TheOldestYoungMan.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #441 on: December 12, 2016, 07:06:34 AM »
Clinton didn't win a majority of votes.  Only a plurality.  That's still "winning" in my mind

Yeah, also in parliamentary democracies, when a party has a plurality of the seats, it's called winning and they get the first shot at forming the government. So, both are winning, one is just winning by more.

Plurality of seats doesn't necessitate a majority of votes, much like the United State's system - Donald Trump won a majority of electoral seats, and a party can control the senate without winning a plurality of actual votes.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #442 on: December 12, 2016, 07:41:23 AM »
Well, that didn't take long - http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2016/12/12/china-trumps-taiwan-comments-spark-serious-concern/95323960/

Quote
“We urge the new U.S. leader and government to fully understand the seriousness of the Taiwan issue, and to continue to stick to the one-China policy,” Geng said, according to the AP.

The Global Times, a state-run Chinese newspaper, said in an editorial Monday that Trump was “as ignorant as a child."
 

If we though fighting in the Middle East was a tremendous waste, it's just an appetizer to fighting the Far East.  Yay Future!
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deadlymonkey

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #443 on: December 12, 2016, 08:05:25 AM »
Well, that didn't take long - http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2016/12/12/china-trumps-taiwan-comments-spark-serious-concern/95323960/

Quote
“We urge the new U.S. leader and government to fully understand the seriousness of the Taiwan issue, and to continue to stick to the one-China policy,” Geng said, according to the AP.

The Global Times, a state-run Chinese newspaper, said in an editorial Monday that Trump was “as ignorant as a child."
 

If we though fighting in the Middle East was a tremendous waste, it's just an appetizer to fighting the Far East.  Yay Future!


It's negotiation.....once China agrees to give Trump Hotels and Casinos a 70 year monopoly on gambling in shanghai and preferential treatment on future development products and to promise to only serve Trump water at future conferences...then we will be back to the one China policy.   See all ok, not conflicts of interest.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #444 on: December 12, 2016, 01:33:52 PM »


ETA; still no fuckin' idea why people are still on about the popular vote. It doesn't matter, it never has, and the electoral college is working as designed. Thankfully Hillary Clinton will never be president; sadly Trump will. Write your party, tell them to find better candidates next time.

It doesn't decide the election, but it certainly matters in that it indicates the amount of support each candidate received.  46-48 is much different from 20-80, for example

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #445 on: December 12, 2016, 02:31:25 PM »


ETA; still no fuckin' idea why people are still on about the popular vote. It doesn't matter, it never has, and the electoral college is working as designed. Thankfully Hillary Clinton will never be president; sadly Trump will. Write your party, tell them to find better candidates next time.

It doesn't decide the election, but it certainly matters in that it indicates the amount of support each candidate received.  46-48 is much different from 20-80, for example

I only bring up the popular vote when people here claim that Trump has some sort of mandate, that his election is reflective of the mood of the country, or that the people support him.

He won the election, but not because he convinced more people to vote for him.  More people voted for someone else.  He didn't motivate the electorate, because he got basically the same number of votes as Romney and McCain.  He only won the election because he effectively suppressed democratic voter turnout.

He still won the election, but let's be honest about the details of how he did it.  It wasn't by being more popular than his opponent.

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #446 on: December 12, 2016, 02:40:13 PM »
I'm hardly certain Trump suppressed democratic voter turnout. Hillary and the DNC own that.

Trump won the election because a majority of areas of the USA supported him over the other candidates.  I mean, he flipped Florida, and Michigan etc. I just can't get behind any popular vote discussion because it's completely unhelpful and unproductive - either work within the Trump system to make things better, or get a party that can put up candidates that have broader appeal than Trump and win a damn election. Arguing over 1-2% of actual voters is such a waste of time.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #447 on: December 12, 2016, 02:41:31 PM »
I'm hardly certain Trump suppressed democratic voter turnout. Hillary and the DNC own that.

Trump won the election because a majority of areas of the USA supported him over the other candidates.  I mean, he flipped Florida, and Michigan etc. I just can't get behind any popular vote discussion because it's completely unhelpful and unproductive - either work within the Trump system to make things better, or get a party that can put up candidates that have broader appeal than Trump and win a damn election. Arguing over 1-2% of actual voters is such a waste of time.
Actually the GOP owns that.  They are been in the business of voter suppression for years now.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #448 on: December 12, 2016, 02:42:45 PM »
I'm hardly certain Trump suppressed democratic voter turnout. Hillary and the DNC own that.

Trump won the election because a majority of areas of the USA supported him over the other candidates.  I mean, he flipped Florida, and Michigan etc. I just can't get behind any popular vote discussion because it's completely unhelpful and unproductive - either work within the Trump system to make things better, or get a party that can put up candidates that have broader appeal than Trump and win a damn election. Arguing over 1-2% of actual voters is such a waste of time.

The only reason it merits any kind of discussion is that people in this thread (and the president elect) are disputing an objective fact. 

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #449 on: December 12, 2016, 02:48:18 PM »
I'm hardly certain Trump suppressed democratic voter turnout. Hillary and the DNC own that.

Trump won the election because a majority of areas of the USA supported him over the other candidates.  I mean, he flipped Florida, and Michigan etc. I just can't get behind any popular vote discussion because it's completely unhelpful and unproductive - either work within the Trump system to make things better, or get a party that can put up candidates that have broader appeal than Trump and win a damn election. Arguing over 1-2% of actual voters is such a waste of time.

This is a slightly different directly, but voter turnout suppression is systematic in some states:
https://www.brennancenter.org/voting-restrictions-first-time-2016

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/inside-the-republican-creation-of-the-north-carolina-voting-bill-dubbed-the-monster-law/2016/09/01/79162398-6adf-11e6-8225-fbb8a6fc65bc_story.html?utm_term=.419779dfb253