Author Topic: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?  (Read 194021 times)

jrhampt

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #300 on: December 01, 2016, 11:27:59 AM »

Kris

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #301 on: December 01, 2016, 11:39:20 AM »
This was written back in July, but I think it makes some good points.  https://medium.com/@theonlytoby/history-tells-us-what-will-happen-next-with-brexit-trump-a3fefd154714#.veiqsevng

Yes. Nicely put. This is pretty much what I would have articulated, had I taken the time and effort to do so.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

Lagom

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #302 on: December 01, 2016, 11:57:43 AM »
This was written back in July, but I think it makes some good points.  https://medium.com/@theonlytoby/history-tells-us-what-will-happen-next-with-brexit-trump-a3fefd154714#.veiqsevng

Yes. Nicely put. This is pretty much what I would have articulated, had I taken the time and effort to do so.

Rationally thinking through the scenarios posited by the article would be a worthwhile exercise for almost anyone, especially those who think everything is going gangbusters. I'm not saying this piece will change their mind, or even that his conclusions are accurate, but having studied history at a graduate level myself, the author is spot on about how all of this has happened before and will happen again. Brexit may not be "it." Trump may not be "it," but global forces are trending in a very reminiscent way right now. Sadly, I'm not sure we're any more capable of learning from the past now than we were previously.

From the article:

"What can we do? Well, again, looking back, probably not much. The liberal intellectuals are always in the minority. See Clay Shirky’s Twitter Storm on this point. The people who see that open societies, being nice to other people, not being racist, not fighting wars, is a better way to live, they generally end up losing these fights. They don’t fight dirty. They are terrible at appealing to the populace. They are less violent, so end up in prisons, camps, and graves. "
« Last Edit: December 01, 2016, 11:59:18 AM by Lagom »

jrhampt

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #303 on: December 01, 2016, 12:17:45 PM »
The article references another one that was written in May, also a good read:
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/04/america-tyranny-donald-trump.html

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #304 on: December 01, 2016, 12:54:03 PM »
We can probably expect more interactions with world leaders that play out like this, sadly (Sad!).

http://www.pid.gov.pk/?p=30445

Quote
PR No. 298 PM TELEPHONES PRESIDENT-ELECT USA Islamabad: November 30, 2016

Prime Minister Muhammad Nawaz Sharif called President-elect USA Donald Trump and felicitated him on his victory. President Trump said Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif you have a very good reputation. You are a terrific guy. You are doing amazing work which is visible in every way. I am looking forward to see you soon. As I am talking to you Prime Minister, I feel I am talking to a person I have known for long. Your country is amazing with tremendous opportunities. Pakistanis are one of the most intelligent people. I am ready and willing to play any role that you want me to play to address and find solutions to the outstanding problems. It will be an honor and I will personally do it. Feel free to call me any time even before 20th January that is before I assume my office.

On being invited to visit Pakistan by the Prime Minister, Mr. Trump said that he would love to come to a fantastic country, fantastic place of fantastic people. Please convey to the Pakistani people that they are amazing and all Pakistanis I have known are exceptional people, said Mr. Donald Trump.

golden1

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #305 on: December 01, 2016, 01:36:58 PM »
I don't know whether to thank you for linking that article or just to go cry in a corner.   I have felt this way for the past year and a half, like a slow tidal wave building towards some triggering event.  All of the chess pieces are in place now.  A destabilized Europe, an aging nuclear arsenal, radicalized youth combined with xenophobia, an increase in authoritarian and totalitarian leaders in major world powers, weak and fractured media, weak opposition parties. 

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #306 on: December 01, 2016, 01:45:44 PM »
I don't usually comment on these types of posts, but there's one idea that I haven't seen in this thread thus far (although I haven't read every single post).

I'm a college professor, and am neither a historian nor a political scientist (I'm a physical scientist) but I associate with a lot of them. I am also very liberal, which isn't necessarily pertinent to this discussion but is honest. 

To a person, nearly all of my friends who are experts are convinced that something very bad is on the horizon.  We just elected an extremely weak, unqualified president and our nation is at odds right now.  Britain is weak because of the Brexit vote.  Russia and Turkey are strong.  Terrorism will thrive under Trump (at least in my opinion), especially if he follows through on his plans to register Muslims in the US.  The world is in a similar place (instability-wise) to where it was before the start of WWI, but now we have nuclear weapons, more effective chemical weapons, and long-range missiles.  Some little thing (a la Archduke Ferdinand) is likely to happen that will start a major war, and millions are likely to die as a result. 

This might sound terribly negative, but given the evidence I do believe it's likely to be true.  The issue is that we don't know where or when this will happen, and who will be affected.   But I believe my life as an American citizen will be very changed 5 years from now from what it is today, and I'm doing my best to prepare for whatever is going to happen.  I really hope that I am wrong.

I see this too, as a studier of history in a family of history fanatics. It's not just Trump, it's the fact that we have many world leaders of his type: narcissistic, thin-skinned bullies. They all seem to be supporting each other for the moment (think, Trump and Putin) but one of them will make a "tiny hands" joke about another and then shit's going to get real. At the least, I'm worried about a Cold War style stalemate between powers.

This is not to say that I'm certain these things will happen, but in my dark moments and when I take a good look at world politics, this is what I think about.

Ender and Dividendman - Total deaths from war have gone down, but we have the potential for much bigger conflicts now. Think about it, the Holocaust would not have been possible prior to the technology of the time (gas chambers and such). Part of the reason we've had fewer wars recently is because we're so interconnected. Not only can we see the horrors of war more (pictures, video) but we have greater access to mediators. Other governments/the UN will step in if there are potential conflicts. However, this doesn't totally protect us from war, and in fact makes another great world war more likely as more countries would be involved in any conflict. Before it was France v. England with maybe Spain halfheartedly thrown in. Now it's Europe v. Russia and Asia, or something else equally huge. The periods between war will likely get longer, but the wars themselves will be catastrophically worse. Especially when you throw in our globalized food, so people who don't go to war could very well starve due to lack of getting food from where it used to come from.
The article linked by jrhampt expresses so much more clearly than I can what I've been seeing in terms of world trends.

dividendman

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #307 on: December 01, 2016, 02:02:51 PM »
I think there are parallels between the conservatives calling it the end of the world when Barack Anti-Christ Obama was elected and now liberals are doing the same thing with their Anti-Christ.

It's just fear mongering. People love to think the worst.

I still believe it is less likely for the US to get involved in a war with Trump as President than Clinton.

I also believe that the world is so interconnected that a large scale war won't be palatable to anyone and therefore won't occur.

Lagom

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #308 on: December 01, 2016, 02:06:43 PM »
I think there are parallels between the conservatives calling it the end of the world when Barack Anti-Christ Obama was elected and now liberals are doing the same thing with their Anti-Christ.

It's just fear mongering. People love to think the worst.

I still believe it is less likely for the US to get involved in a war with Trump as President than Clinton.

I also believe that the world is so interconnected that a large scale war won't be palatable to anyone and therefore won't occur.

I'm guessing you didn't read the linked piece. All it takes is for the first domino to fall, even if all of the rest are perfectly content staying upright. This has played out time and time again in history, and before every single disaster people like you were confident the worst could never come to pass. Anyway, I'm not yet sure that I think we are at that point, but the warning signs are present and increasingly quantifiable. Regardless, I don't think anyone here would disagree that we hope you are right.

RangerOne

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #309 on: December 01, 2016, 02:29:12 PM »
Trump could lead to a number of bad things at home or abroad and I do take Brexit, Trump and what is happening in France as overall bad signs of a breakdown in our international cooperation.

But the truth is its still too complicated to assume the worst, and even if you do there is little you can do to combat it.

I really could not say how a war in Europe with Russia would look. Surely there is a line they wouldn't cross. I am skeptical an large player would use a nuke simply since the cost of retaliation is too high unless they were given no choice.

Our economic dependencies globally are too interwoven to encourage for a full scale global war to be at all desirable. Ever major global government knows this, though dictator like Putin will certainly seek an opening to redraw lines of influence and seize resources.

Trump may be ignorant of much of this but our government is still run by mostly insiders and he is going to take queues form a number of people. Until we reach the point where we are openly hanging members of congress and a president has direct support to do so form the majority of the military I think we are still in some what stable shape.

Economic turmoil and extreme persecution of Muslims with some minority spill over I think are our most likely dangers for the next 4-8 years.

dividendman

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #310 on: December 01, 2016, 02:40:17 PM »
I think there are parallels between the conservatives calling it the end of the world when Barack Anti-Christ Obama was elected and now liberals are doing the same thing with their Anti-Christ.

It's just fear mongering. People love to think the worst.

I still believe it is less likely for the US to get involved in a war with Trump as President than Clinton.

I also believe that the world is so interconnected that a large scale war won't be palatable to anyone and therefore won't occur.

I'm guessing you didn't read the linked piece. All it takes is for the first domino to fall, even if all of the rest are perfectly content staying upright. This has played out time and time again in history, and before every single disaster people like you were confident the worst could never come to pass. Anyway, I'm not yet sure that I think we are at that point, but the warning signs are present and increasingly quantifiable. Regardless, I don't think anyone here would disagree that we hope you are right.

I did read it. It was long. I just don't agree with the conclusions (although since it was written before the election I do agree with the parts about trying to stop Trump and Sanders precisely because they win by whipping up popular sentiment based on no compromise ideals - I would have preferred Clinton win).

Saying things like "people like you were confident the worst could never come to pass" is just the same as people like you predicting the worst is always coming, just around the corner. You can go to any point in the last 50 years and have people like you showing how the world is coming to an end. How "this time it's different".

Really? From 1950 to 1990 the world was on the cusp of a nuclear engagement between two superpowers. I don't think we're anywhere near that now and somehow we have people claiming it's more likely now than then. Look at the major wars that happened since WWII

War in Korea
Russia/China war
Cuban missle Crises
Suez crises
Vietnam
Israel/Arab various wars
USSR/Afghan war
Iran/Iraq war
India and Pakistan wars with both sides having nukes
Gulf wars

I'm sure I'm missing a bunch, but these were actual wars, where each party has allies that are superpowers (or superpowers themselves are involved) and many claimed the wars would spin out of control and entangle the whole world.

Today we have no significant state to state war actually occurring, and yet you think we're more likely now than in the last 50 years to have this WWIII occur? I just think it's recency bias. The world is so much more stable now than it's been ever.

Lagom

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #311 on: December 01, 2016, 03:05:54 PM »
You sure are making a lot of assumptions about me simply because I am willing to entertain an idea you are not. I never said WWIII is around the corner nor do you have any evidence whatsoever that I am a habitual doomsayer or fear-monger. Did I say we are closer to nuclear war than during the Cuban Missile Crisis? Obviously we are not, but then that was obviously not the point being made. Just because some people who are not me have predicted Armageddon during times that I did not in no way invalidates what I am talking about, which involves different geopolitical trends than existed in the very recent past (which had a whole host of other frightening conditions, as you note), but that have emerged periodically throughout history.

And I didn't say anything was inevitable, only that maybe *gasp* it's worth thinking about history when evaluating the present. But then I also predicted we would not do so as a society, and I see nothing thus far to feel insecure in that prediction. Note what I at no time predicted was the impending end of the world.

All of that said, the U.S. appears to be the least likely country to suffer too extremely (outside of oppressed minority groups anyway), so yay us, I suppose.

Glenstache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #312 on: December 01, 2016, 05:53:50 PM »
I think there are parallels between the conservatives calling it the end of the world when Barack Anti-Christ Obama was elected and now liberals are doing the same thing with their Anti-Christ.

It's just fear mongering. People love to think the worst.

I still believe it is less likely for the US to get involved in a war with Trump as President than Clinton.

I also believe that the world is so interconnected that a large scale war won't be palatable to anyone and therefore won't occur.

I can see that there are some parallels here to the extent that a leader with views perceived to be different than our own is viewed more negatively. That's just human nature.

I also think that it is a false equivalence. The fear of Obama (he'll take our guns!) was, for the most part, not actually based on his public statements or on gross misreadings of them with zero allowance for nuance. The issues with Trump are generally based on his stated, reaffirmed, actions and statements. He is clearly a person who will say what he needs to to get his way. However, his rhetoric during this campaign appears to have substance as he assembles his cabinet. Specifically: his appointment to EPA denies climate change, his H&HS person wants to dismantle our medicare system, his appointment for Attny General has been denied appointment in the past due to overtly racist sentiments, his chief strategist facilitated/promoted (via Breitbart) white nationalists / alt-right points of view, and the list goes on.

dividendman

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #313 on: December 01, 2016, 06:54:05 PM »
I think there are parallels between the conservatives calling it the end of the world when Barack Anti-Christ Obama was elected and now liberals are doing the same thing with their Anti-Christ.

It's just fear mongering. People love to think the worst.

I still believe it is less likely for the US to get involved in a war with Trump as President than Clinton.

I also believe that the world is so interconnected that a large scale war won't be palatable to anyone and therefore won't occur.

I can see that there are some parallels here to the extent that a leader with views perceived to be different than our own is viewed more negatively. That's just human nature.

I also think that it is a false equivalence. The fear of Obama (he'll take our guns!) was, for the most part, not actually based on his public statements or on gross misreadings of them with zero allowance for nuance. The issues with Trump are generally based on his stated, reaffirmed, actions and statements. He is clearly a person who will say what he needs to to get his way. However, his rhetoric during this campaign appears to have substance as he assembles his cabinet. Specifically: his appointment to EPA denies climate change, his H&HS person wants to dismantle our medicare system, his appointment for Attny General has been denied appointment in the past due to overtly racist sentiments, his chief strategist facilitated/promoted (via Breitbart) white nationalists / alt-right points of view, and the list goes on.

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, I believe it's going to be shitty for a whole host of reasons including the ones you mention above, I just don't think it's going to be a WWI/II type catastrophe.

Glenstache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #314 on: December 01, 2016, 07:07:30 PM »
I think there are parallels between the conservatives calling it the end of the world when Barack Anti-Christ Obama was elected and now liberals are doing the same thing with their Anti-Christ.

It's just fear mongering. People love to think the worst.

I still believe it is less likely for the US to get involved in a war with Trump as President than Clinton.

I also believe that the world is so interconnected that a large scale war won't be palatable to anyone and therefore won't occur.

I can see that there are some parallels here to the extent that a leader with views perceived to be different than our own is viewed more negatively. That's just human nature.

I also think that it is a false equivalence. The fear of Obama (he'll take our guns!) was, for the most part, not actually based on his public statements or on gross misreadings of them with zero allowance for nuance. The issues with Trump are generally based on his stated, reaffirmed, actions and statements. He is clearly a person who will say what he needs to to get his way. However, his rhetoric during this campaign appears to have substance as he assembles his cabinet. Specifically: his appointment to EPA denies climate change, his H&HS person wants to dismantle our medicare system, his appointment for Attny General has been denied appointment in the past due to overtly racist sentiments, his chief strategist facilitated/promoted (via Breitbart) white nationalists / alt-right points of view, and the list goes on.

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, I believe it's going to be shitty for a whole host of reasons including the ones you mention above, I just don't think it's going to be a WWI/II type catastrophe.

I hope it all turns our rainbows and kittens, too. I think that domestically it is going to be very, very hard on those who supported him most. I do not say that with relish or ill will, but with resignment.

bacchi

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #315 on: December 01, 2016, 10:57:59 PM »
Sarah Palin head of the VA. Kill me now!

OK posting mainly to follow but that one was unexpected in a bad way.

There's even talk of privatizing the VA.

With all of this remaking of America, it'll be interesting to see what goes through before the tables flip.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #316 on: December 02, 2016, 01:28:16 AM »
And it is deeply upsetting that the DNC had the gall to ram Clinton down the throats of liberals like she was owed the office of the president because of her sex and loyalty to the party.

Clinton won the Democratic nomination because a majority of Democratic primary voters preferred her. The DNC did not choose, and did not have the power to choose, the Democratic nominee.

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #317 on: December 02, 2016, 03:49:09 AM »
I think there are parallels between the conservatives calling it the end of the world when Barack Anti-Christ Obama was elected and now liberals are doing the same thing with their Anti-Christ.

It's just fear mongering. People love to think the worst.

I still believe it is less likely for the US to get involved in a war with Trump as President than Clinton.

I also believe that the world is so interconnected that a large scale war won't be palatable to anyone and therefore won't occur.

I'm guessing you didn't read the linked piece. All it takes is for the first domino to fall, even if all of the rest are perfectly content staying upright. This has played out time and time again in history, and before every single disaster people like you were confident the worst could never come to pass. Anyway, I'm not yet sure that I think we are at that point, but the warning signs are present and increasingly quantifiable. Regardless, I don't think anyone here would disagree that we hope you are right.

Could it be argued that the domino has already fallen? I mean, a group of unhappy people flew planes into buildings 15 years ago. This lead half the world to invade a handful of foreign countries and overthrow their governments, creating huge reactionary forces that have killed hundreds of thousands of people.  The greatest country in the world imprisoned alleged enemies without trial, tortured them, and executed its own citizens without trial for associating with said enemies.

Is it blind to see that the terrible things mentioned in the article are already happening? That the dominos have already fallen, long before Trump or Brexit or anything the author is listing as a precursor- its more a comment on a current trend than a future course of the world.  Maybe I'm just an optimist, figuring things are super bad now and will someday get better.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #318 on: December 02, 2016, 03:54:28 AM »
And it is deeply upsetting that the DNC had the gall to ram Clinton down the throats of liberals like she was owed the office of the president because of her sex and loyalty to the party.

Clinton won the Democratic nomination because a majority of Democratic primary voters preferred her. The DNC did not choose, and did not have the power to choose, the Democratic nominee.

I think this misses quite a bit of nuance. Scheduling debates for low viewer turn out after Clinton polled lower after each debate with Bernie, DNC executives giving Clinton debate questions before anyone else, assigning superdelegates to her even when Bernie won the majority of democratic votes in the state; these are some of the things that upset many democratic voters, and show it clearly wasn't a fair and equal primary election.
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #319 on: December 02, 2016, 06:00:32 AM »
I think the Mattis announcement is really, really interesting. It's the first appointment where I can look at it, and not lose my shit. Obviously, it's far from a done deal (active duty waiver and all that), but from what I've read, he seems really thoughtful about how war happens and at what cost. Whether or not he'll get swept up in the Trumpstorm of insanity remains to be seen. I'm cautiously optimistic about this one.

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/could-one-retired-general-really-save-donald-trumps-pen-1789495945
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

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Lagom

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #320 on: December 02, 2016, 10:02:40 AM »
I think the Mattis announcement is really, really interesting. It's the first appointment where I can look at it, and not lose my shit. Obviously, it's far from a done deal (active duty waiver and all that), but from what I've read, he seems really thoughtful about how war happens and at what cost. Whether or not he'll get swept up in the Trumpstorm of insanity remains to be seen. I'm cautiously optimistic about this one.

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/could-one-retired-general-really-save-donald-trumps-pen-1789495945

I mostly agree, although his hawkishness on Iran makes me quite nervous. Still, way better than most of the other appointees thus far and definitely as good as anyone a mainstream GOP president was likely to have produced.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #321 on: December 02, 2016, 10:08:07 AM »
I think the Mattis announcement is really, really interesting. It's the first appointment where I can look at it, and not lose my shit. Obviously, it's far from a done deal (active duty waiver and all that), but from what I've read, he seems really thoughtful about how war happens and at what cost. Whether or not he'll get swept up in the Trumpstorm of insanity remains to be seen. I'm cautiously optimistic about this one.

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/could-one-retired-general-really-save-donald-trumps-pen-1789495945

I mostly agree, although his hawkishness on Iran makes me quite nervous. Still, way better than most of the other appointees thus far and definitely as good as anyone a mainstream GOP president was likely to have produced.

Yeah, that's the thing that stands out as being the most worrisome with him, but I think (hope) that's tempered by the fact that he appears to deeply respect the lives of the people he commands.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/digging-out-of-a-hole/

Lagom

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #322 on: December 02, 2016, 10:13:28 AM »

Could it be argued that the domino has already fallen? I mean, a group of unhappy people flew planes into buildings 15 years ago. This lead half the world to invade a handful of foreign countries and overthrow their governments, creating huge reactionary forces that have killed hundreds of thousands of people.  The greatest country in the world imprisoned alleged enemies without trial, tortured them, and executed its own citizens without trial for associating with said enemies.

Is it blind to see that the terrible things mentioned in the article are already happening? That the dominos have already fallen, long before Trump or Brexit or anything the author is listing as a precursor- its more a comment on a current trend than a future course of the world.  Maybe I'm just an optimist, figuring things are super bad now and will someday get better.

I think this is a fair point and despite dividendman's assumptions to the contrary, I actually prefer to stay optimistic in general as well, if only for my own sanity. But I also believe in seriously contemplating dark alternatives so that I am not blindsided if they do come to pass (although as per the quote above, I am not optimistic about my chances in that world). Also not sure there is much evidence that we have reversed the disturbing course began on 9/11, alas.


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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #323 on: December 02, 2016, 12:19:24 PM »
And it is deeply upsetting that the DNC had the gall to ram Clinton down the throats of liberals like she was owed the office of the president because of her sex and loyalty to the party.

Clinton won the Democratic nomination because a majority of Democratic primary voters preferred her. The DNC did not choose, and did not have the power to choose, the Democratic nominee.

I think this misses quite a bit of nuance. Scheduling debates for low viewer turn out after Clinton polled lower after each debate with Bernie, DNC executives giving Clinton debate questions before anyone else, assigning superdelegates to her even when Bernie won the majority of democratic votes in the state; these are some of the things that upset many democratic voters, and show it clearly wasn't a fair and equal primary election.

The debates were either scheduled far in advance or were held after it was already clear that Bernie had no chance to win the nomination. If you're talking about Donna Brazile, she wasn't a DNC executive when she provided a hint about a debate question. I have no idea what you're referring to in your third point, but whatever happened, it was almost certainly insignificant in comparison to Clinton's overall delegate lead, which was a result, again, of voters preferring her.

This "DNC stole the primary for Hillary" narrative is just stupid and wrong.

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #324 on: December 02, 2016, 12:25:22 PM »
The debates were either scheduled far in advance or were held after it was already clear that Bernie had no chance to win the nomination. If you're talking about Donna Brazile, she wasn't a DNC executive when she provided a hint about a debate question. I have no idea what you're referring to in your third point, but whatever happened, it was almost certainly insignificant in comparison to Clinton's overall delegate lead, which was a result, again, of voters preferring her.

This "DNC stole the primary for Hillary" narrative is just stupid and wrong.

And these sorts of dismissals and sidestepping of the issues probably played a large part in Clinton's eventual loss to Donald Trump.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #325 on: December 02, 2016, 12:53:45 PM »
Bernie supporters who were poor losers contributed to Hillary 's loss, yes.  The Republicans weren't the only ones in this election who ignored math and fell for fake news.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #326 on: December 02, 2016, 02:10:58 PM »
Bernie supporters who were poor losers contributed to Hillary 's loss, yes.  The Republicans weren't the only ones in this election who ignored math and fell for fake news.

+10

To be clear, I'm not putting Trump's victory on Bernie supporters. There were a whole lot of factors leading to that, and disgruntled Bernie supporters were only one of many.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #327 on: December 02, 2016, 05:59:26 PM »
Well, this seems to be going well.
https://www.ft.com/content/fd19907e-b8d4-11e6-961e-a1acd97f622d

Spontaneously gives the leader of Taiwan a call to chat... which is also the first real diplomatic contact since (wait for it) 1979 because of an attempt to maintain good relations with the Chinese. FTW.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #328 on: December 02, 2016, 06:22:00 PM »
Well, this seems to be going well.
https://www.ft.com/content/fd19907e-b8d4-11e6-961e-a1acd97f622d

Spontaneously gives the leader of Taiwan a call to chat... which is also the first real diplomatic contact since (wait for it) 1979 because of an attempt to maintain good relations with the Chinese. FTW.
It is just possible that Trump having not yet taken office the Chinese will feel able to turn a diplomatic blind eye.  In which case, it could be a good move on Trump's part.

On the other hand, Trump is playing chicken with a nuclear armed dictatorship.

Four more years of this.  It's a long time to live on a tightrope.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #329 on: December 02, 2016, 06:38:44 PM »
Well, this seems to be going well.
https://www.ft.com/content/fd19907e-b8d4-11e6-961e-a1acd97f622d

Spontaneously gives the leader of Taiwan a call to chat... which is also the first real diplomatic contact since (wait for it) 1979 because of an attempt to maintain good relations with the Chinese. FTW.
It is just possible that Trump having not yet taken office the Chinese will feel able to turn a diplomatic blind eye.  In which case, it could be a good move on Trump's part.

On the other hand, Trump is playing chicken with a nuclear armed dictatorship.

Four more years of this.  It's a long time to live on a tightrope.

I think we can hope for the rest of the world being more mature and just not taking him seriously... which is a really f'd up thing to hope for. Given that he has been declining intelligence briefings, I do not suspect that he has a genius master plan up his sleeve... especially given that he has also escalated tensions regarding the US position in the India-Pakistan relationship (who actually have ongoing armed conflict and nukes). Hard to find a silver lining in his recent string of diplomatic encounters. As near as I can tell, Trump is acting like he's trying to sell them condos.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #330 on: December 02, 2016, 08:50:28 PM »
And now we have diplomacy by Twitter:

http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/trumps-choice-on-cuba?mbid=social_twitter

on Monday morning, following a series of blustery anti-Castro pronouncements on the Sunday talk shows by his aides Kellyanne Conway and Reince Priebus, and by Senator Ted Cruz and Senator Marco Rubio, Trump tweeted again: “If Cuba is unwilling to make a better deal for the Cuban people, the Cuban/American people and the U.S. as a whole, I will terminate deal.” A few minutes after that tweet, I asked a Cuban diplomat if he’d seen it. He hadn’t. When I read it to him, he said, in a low voice, “No, no, no. This isn’t going to end well.”

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #331 on: December 02, 2016, 09:41:52 PM »
Today's developments, in which President Elect Trump overturns decades of diplomatic negotiations with China by casually phoning the leader of Taiwan and then hours later reverses the nation's course on Cuban relations with a tweet, have suddenly made me realize that this thread is going to stay very interesting until Trump leaves office (I almost said "for the next four years" but then thought better of it).

So let's review.  Who predicted that Trump would ignore the pleas of the State Department and attempt to remake the global diplomatic framework that supports US economic dominance by using twitter?  Was that on somebody's list?  If we missed it, then we should all be ashamed of ourselves in retrospect, because OF COURSE he would.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #332 on: December 03, 2016, 12:03:40 AM »
I wonder if this is what the citizens of Rome felt like in 400 A.D., when things started to decline?  Now, I'm not saying that Trump single-handedly brings the fall of the US, but there are some interesting parallels, with the election of Trump and subsequent 'Corruption and Political Instability' as being one more of the 8 reasons Rome fell.  See if you can match up some of the others reasons to our current circumstances...  Of course, significant pieces are missing, like the rise of a rival power (maybe China?) and heightened attacks from barbarians (maybe terrorists or domestic threats?).

Of course, this is all just as speculative as saying our future looks like Idiocracy.  :)

Anyway, posting on this thread to get involved, I have yet to read through the entirety of what others have said to see all of the positive aspects that I'm missing.  Also, I'm not saying that Hillary wasn't corrupt, but I do believe that she would have maintained political stability more so than Trump.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #333 on: December 03, 2016, 03:56:22 AM »
Everything I've read states that the Tsai Ing-wen called Trump, not the other way around.  I think that's a very important distinction to be made.  China has to fly off the handle at this, which is completely expected and boringly predictable - the actual reaction that will matter is the Trump administration's reaction - do they walk back the conversation and downplay it? Or do they double down on the action - the latter would be a clear mistake in U.S. - China relations.

Taking a phone call from Taiwan, in absence of supportive action or further conversations: probably not that big of deal. Continued conversations? Clearly a pivot on decades of U.S. policy. Despite what some of the reactionary pundits are hyping, China is not going to start a nuclear war over a phone call.

Edit: This has to be taken as well with a reflection from China's perspective - their economy is changing, growth is slowing, Chinese manufacturers are opening factories in the United States and essentially exporting jobs. China is going through changes and growing pains just like any world power and this may temper their reactions in ways that it wouldn't have 35 years ago.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2016, 04:16:47 AM by Metric Mouse »
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #334 on: December 03, 2016, 05:04:09 AM »
I'm glad I found this thread, because I feel like I'm losing my mind. There aren't many people I can talk to on this subject. Most of my family is pro Trump. One is outright hateful toward me.

In terms of previous posts here, it seems to me the dominoes are falling (yes, maybe they have been falling for >15 years) and we're in for something very bad. Even as I hope for the best, I wake up, read about Trump - his appointments, his behavior, and his tweets, and the hope dies. Every day.

And it's not just Trump. His win has emboldened GOP reps. The recent tweets out of the House Science Committee sickens me:

Yesterday, @HouseScience tweeted a Brietbart article by an English major who readily admits he doesn't have time to read peer reviewed science. This is the guy who made hay about Climate gate in 2009 that, after 4 independent investigations, turned up ZERO wrongdoing. (Watch This BBC Documentary . James Delingpole's statements here: https://youtu.be/C3JEaigwAbg?t=37m51s )

Earlier, @HouseScience mocked Climate scientists for being depressed. I'm not kidding.

The chairman of the committee is a regular author on Breitbart. His stated priority as chairman is to "reduce the regulatory burden on american families."

After Trump won, I decided to focus on one important issue, and fight for it. For me, it's climate change. I read, research, and post simple, thoughtful posts nearly every day on facebook. I exchange emails with my pro Trump brother (through gritted teeth), and read up about the handful of non-climate-scientist deniers who are causing so many problems. Whether it's an anti-communist ideology, or on behalf of Exxon Mobil and whoever is anonymously donating to the 'Donors Trust' foundation, they are a destructive force.

Speaking of Exxon Mobil (XOM). They are the primary fossil fuel company behind climate denial activity. Even as their reported support has waned, it's very likely they are donating to a front group called 'Donors Trust'. It occurred to me that Vanguard ETFs must be a significant shareholder. I calculated they hold at least 5.7% of XOM (see my excel snapshot below).  I'm thinking we could call the fund managers of VTI, VOO, VDE  and others and demand they, as shareholder reps, demand that XOM stop employing these disinformation tactics from the big tobacco playbook. If you want to work with me on this feel free to PM.

I truly hope this lawsuit is effective. But it's probably not enough. It's too small. We need a class action suit of people with standing, who can expose the climate change denial in the same way the tobacco industry was exposed.

I'm extremely discouraged by the appointment of Myron Ebell to the EPA, and the dangerous statements by Trump. I've found a few gems - like GOP house Rep Bob Ingles of South Carolina who is vocal about the reality of the science. But he was ousted in 2012.

This is a tremendous amount of information to go through - and it is but one topic in an array of terribly discouraging fronts.

Chin up, yes. But I'm preparing for things getting much worse.

tl;dr: so my take on the impact of a Trump presidency is that we'll lose significant ground on climate change mitigation.  I believe it's a crisis. Trump and his appointees could have a very negative impact on our global ecosystems. ... And I'm glad I have you all to talk with about it all.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2016, 07:21:20 AM by Malaysia41 »
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #335 on: December 03, 2016, 05:42:07 AM »
I see this too, as a studier of history in a family of history fanatics. It's not just Trump, it's the fact that we have many world leaders of his type: narcissistic, thin-skinned bullies. They all seem to be supporting each other for the moment (think, Trump and Putin) but one of them will make a "tiny hands" joke about another and then shit's going to get real. At the least, I'm worried about a Cold War style stalemate between powers.

This is not to say that I'm certain these things will happen, but in my dark moments and when I take a good look at world politics, this is what I think about.

Ender and Dividendman - Total deaths from war have gone down, but we have the potential for much bigger conflicts now. Think about it, the Holocaust would not have been possible prior to the technology of the time (gas chambers and such). Part of the reason we've had fewer wars recently is because we're so interconnected. Not only can we see the horrors of war more (pictures, video) but we have greater access to mediators. Other governments/the UN will step in if there are potential conflicts. However, this doesn't totally protect us from war, and in fact makes another great world war more likely as more countries would be involved in any conflict. Before it was France v. England with maybe Spain halfheartedly thrown in. Now it's Europe v. Russia and Asia, or something else equally huge. The periods between war will likely get longer, but the wars themselves will be catastrophically worse. Especially when you throw in our globalized food, so people who don't go to war could very well starve due to lack of getting food from where it used to come from.
The article linked by jrhampt expresses so much more clearly than I can what I've been seeing in terms of world trends.

I'm not sure a person can study history and think that wars will get catastrophically worse. Wars have been getting 'better', smaller and less frequent and overall less deadly for world powers than at any time in history.  There are so many reasons for this, some of which you've mentioned, that I find it difficult to believe that most informed people would argue that the planet overall, and especially developed countries, are moving closer to global conflict.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #336 on: December 03, 2016, 06:55:38 AM »
Given that he has been declining intelligence briefings, I do not suspect that he has a genius master plan up his sleeve...

In Obama's first 6 years in office, he skipped 58% of all security briefings and no one on the left bothered to complain, yet Trump isn't even in office and suddenly the left is having a meltdown because he hasn't attended every single briefing.

How does one reason with such hypocrisy?

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #337 on: December 03, 2016, 07:04:44 AM »
Today's developments, in which President Elect Trump overturns decades of diplomatic negotiations with China by casually phoning the leader of Taiwan...

He "overturned" decades of diplomatic relations? I highly doubt that.

Maybe you're used to 8 years of ineffective milquetoast leadership, but the fact is that Trump doesn't need China's permission to speak to Taiwan, or anyone else for that matter.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #338 on: December 03, 2016, 07:25:04 AM »
It's snowing in Hell: I agree with Sarah Palin.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/sarah-palin-calls-out-trump-s-carrier-deal-warns-against-n691426

I only agree with her article calling out the deal as "crony capitalism." The rest of the article is full of a lot of the same old hooey.

Original Article:
http://www.youngcons.com/sarah-palin-but-wait-the-good-guys-wont-win-with-more-crony-capitalism/

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #339 on: December 03, 2016, 09:00:36 AM »

Speaking of Exxon Mobil (XOM). They are the primary fossil fuel company behind climate denial activity.

If you're speaking of the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, the Democratic Party was as well.  If you're talking about the 90's, it wasn't really settled.  Actual science wasn't available until after decades of chicken little, so it's a little strange to indict a company that was legitimately concerned with keeping energy prices low when, you know, there were no viable alternatives.

Did their activities delay action?  There's good arguments for that.

Are they still?  No.  That can't really be argued.  All signs point to industry trying to make the transition.

The demonization of individual companies or industries is easy if you decide to become a single issue person.  You lose the complexity of reality, like how oil companies produce the fertilizer that ended famine.  Or produced the synthetic materials that made modern medicine possible.  Or you know, literally enabled the entire world you enjoy to exist at virtually every level.

There were a lot of motivations to oppose bad policy like "tax the shit out of these specific companies despite the fact that we all rely on energy and there isn't an alternative at the moment."
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #340 on: December 03, 2016, 09:11:29 AM »
The Rockefeller foundation wrote up an extensive investigation into Exxon Mobil and climate change denial efforts.. It's pretty well established exactly when they abandoned clear eyed honest science and started manufacturing doubt.



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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #341 on: December 03, 2016, 09:35:58 AM »
The Rockefeller foundation wrote up an extensive investigation into Exxon Mobil and climate change denial efforts.. It's pretty well established exactly when they abandoned clear eyed honest science and started manufacturing doubt.

Yup...we're supposed to believe that Exxon Oil has "proven" damaging climate change, even though no one else has managed to do so, and then they kept it hidden, and only the efforts of the left leaning Rockefeller Foundation have uncovered this massive cover up.

Time for a new tin foil hat... :)

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #342 on: December 03, 2016, 09:37:16 AM »
And just in case folks don't believe in a link between a Trump presidency and increased environmental degradation, the Trump effect is already happening in Texas...  http://www.expressnews.com/business/eagle-ford-energy/article/EPA-plans-to-withdraw-pollution-rule-for-7-Texas-10645121.php

Quote
The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency said it plans to withdraw a rule that would require seven Texas coal-fired power plants to reduce pollution coming from their stacks, providing at least a short-term reprieve for power companies fearful that the costs of ever stricter regulations would doom their plants.

The rule would have mandated that the Texas plants, as well as eight others in Oklahoma, update scrubbers and other air pollution control devices to preserve air quality near national parks and wilderness areas, including Big Bend National Park on the Texas border with Mexico, and Guadalupe Mountains National Park on the New Mexico border.

Quote
Environmental advocates said they expect the EPA to rework and resubmit the rule, but its future is uncertain as President-elect Donald Trump prepares to take office.

Trump has pledged to support the coal industry and undo regulations adopted under President Barack Obama that threaten it. The EPA did not respond to requests for comment. Power companies also declined to comment.

Environmental advocates said the EPA’s move represents a setback to efforts to reduce air pollution in Texas. For years, Texas and the EPA have battled over whether the state or federal government should set air standards. Texas developed its own plan to manage air quality, but the EPA in 2014 said it did not go far enough in reducing pollution and imposed a regional power plant rule.

The EPA’s pollution plan would have cut 200,000 tons per year of sulfur dioxide emitted into the air in Texas, according to the Sierra Club, a national environmental advocacy group.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #343 on: December 03, 2016, 09:44:19 AM »
The Rockefeller foundation wrote up an extensive investigation into Exxon Mobil and climate change denial efforts.. It's pretty well established exactly when they abandoned clear eyed honest science and started manufacturing doubt.

I think the point that this article shows is that it was wildly known, by massive amounts of important people and large swaths of the scientific community that this was occurring, 35-40 years ago. And no one has done anything. Not a single, damn thing. It's not as if one single company came to this conclusion and no one else in the world knew about it - four decades of this information, and people are still flying around in jets and driving cars and burning coal for lights.

No. It just means that no one is doing anything that matters to address it. Absolutely no one.  Even the people who have huge followings and could motivate large amounts of people are still flying to Ecuador every year, or jetting off to Paris on their private jet or whatever. The scientists still drive to work in their fossil fuel-powered cars and eat food grown several hundred miles away using huge amounts of fuels before being trucked to their area using huge amount of carbon before being persevered using huge amounts of carbon.  They are still posting results on computers powered by fossil fuels and working in labs powered by carbon, wearing clothes made thousands of miles away in factories powered by fossil fuels before being transported using carbon....

etc.

It's not that climate change isn't real, or isn't a problem. It's that there's nothing anyone can do to stop it and NO ONE is willing to do even the small things that could be done to mitigate the effects.

At some point, one looks at the data, sees that it's too late to do anything to stop climate change, and that no one is doing anything anyway, and starts looking at other options.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #344 on: December 03, 2016, 09:48:38 AM »
And just in case folks don't believe in a link between a Trump presidency and increased environmental degradation, the Trump effect is already happening in Texas...  http://www.expressnews.com/business/eagle-ford-energy/article/EPA-plans-to-withdraw-pollution-rule-for-7-Texas-10645121.php

Quote
The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency said it plans to withdraw a rule that would require seven Texas coal-fired power plants to reduce pollution coming from their stacks, providing at least a short-term reprieve for power companies fearful that the costs of ever stricter regulations would doom their plants.

The rule would have mandated that the Texas plants, as well as eight others in Oklahoma, update scrubbers and other air pollution control devices to preserve air quality near national parks and wilderness areas, including Big Bend National Park on the Texas border with Mexico, and Guadalupe Mountains National Park on the New Mexico border.

Quote
Environmental advocates said they expect the EPA to rework and resubmit the rule, but its future is uncertain as President-elect Donald Trump prepares to take office.

Trump has pledged to support the coal industry and undo regulations adopted under President Barack Obama that threaten it. The EPA did not respond to requests for comment. Power companies also declined to comment.

Environmental advocates said the EPA’s move represents a setback to efforts to reduce air pollution in Texas. For years, Texas and the EPA have battled over whether the state or federal government should set air standards. Texas developed its own plan to manage air quality, but the EPA in 2014 said it did not go far enough in reducing pollution and imposed a regional power plant rule.

The EPA’s pollution plan would have cut 200,000 tons per year of sulfur dioxide emitted into the air in Texas, according to the Sierra Club, a national environmental advocacy group.

Sound energy policy doesn't constitute environmental degradation.  Building a lower polluting energy grid should be a huge priority.  The idea that you need to go out of your way to shut down the existing grid before that new power is available is false.  Texas is investing a ton of efforts at renewable energy sources.  We would've replaced almost all of our coal decades ago if we'd been allowed to build the nuclear plants we wanted, but environmentalists stopped us from doing that.

Not to mention elimination of some of the cheapest power is going to be a huge burden on the poor.  Why does the left insist on waging war on the poor?  Why tax the poor with all this expensive energy?  Man.  Have some humanity (see how annoying that is?)
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #345 on: December 03, 2016, 09:54:56 AM »
And just in case folks don't believe in a link between a Trump presidency and increased environmental degradation, the Trump effect is already happening in Texas...  http://www.expressnews.com/business/eagle-ford-energy/article/EPA-plans-to-withdraw-pollution-rule-for-7-Texas-10645121.php

Quote
The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency said it plans to withdraw a rule that would require seven Texas coal-fired power plants to reduce pollution coming from their stacks, providing at least a short-term reprieve for power companies fearful that the costs of ever stricter regulations would doom their plants.

The rule would have mandated that the Texas plants, as well as eight others in Oklahoma, update scrubbers and other air pollution control devices to preserve air quality near national parks and wilderness areas, including Big Bend National Park on the Texas border with Mexico, and Guadalupe Mountains National Park on the New Mexico border.

Quote
Environmental advocates said they expect the EPA to rework and resubmit the rule, but its future is uncertain as President-elect Donald Trump prepares to take office.

Trump has pledged to support the coal industry and undo regulations adopted under President Barack Obama that threaten it. The EPA did not respond to requests for comment. Power companies also declined to comment.

Environmental advocates said the EPA’s move represents a setback to efforts to reduce air pollution in Texas. For years, Texas and the EPA have battled over whether the state or federal government should set air standards. Texas developed its own plan to manage air quality, but the EPA in 2014 said it did not go far enough in reducing pollution and imposed a regional power plant rule.

The EPA’s pollution plan would have cut 200,000 tons per year of sulfur dioxide emitted into the air in Texas, according to the Sierra Club, a national environmental advocacy group.

The EPA has been getting smacked around in court for its 111(D) ruling since 2014.  I never expected it to stand as written, no matter who was in office. It was unworkable for most of the country and their implementation was pretty slimy to-boot.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #346 on: December 03, 2016, 10:42:03 AM »
Given that he has been declining intelligence briefings, I do not suspect that he has a genius master plan up his sleeve...

In Obama's first 6 years in office, he skipped 58% of all security briefings and no one on the left bothered to complain, yet Trump isn't even in office and suddenly the left is having a meltdown because he hasn't attended every single briefing.

How does one reason with such hypocrisy?

One can forgive a president with years of experience skipping briefings.  How many did he miss in the months after the election when he needed to get up to speed?  Are you being purposefully obtuse? 

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #347 on: December 03, 2016, 10:42:46 AM »
Not to mention elimination of some of the cheapest power is going to be a huge burden on the poor.  Why does the left insist on waging war on the poor?  Why tax the poor with all this expensive energy?  Man.  Have some humanity (see how annoying that is?)

I'm not sure if you were trying to be humorous or if you don't understand externalities

I'm not in support of paying more over the life cycle of an energy resource, but the idea that we should be willing to pollute just to make more money in the short term is an outdated concept for a first world country.  This is what the third world does in order to boot strap up to where we are.  And the poor aren't going to be saved by their relatively tiny usage of cheap energy getting 1% cheaper, but those billionaires are probably going to be 1% richer.  Go USA!  :)
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #348 on: December 03, 2016, 11:13:08 AM »
Given that he has been declining intelligence briefings, I do not suspect that he has a genius master plan up his sleeve...

In Obama's first 6 years in office, he skipped 58% of all security briefings

Where do you get this stuff from?  Did you just pull that number out of your butt?

This is classic Trump, btw.  You're on video saying "grab them by the pussy?"  Make the false claim that Bill Clinton is a rapist, even though he's not even running for office.  You've been charged with defrauding the American public?  Make the false claim that Hillary Clinton is being charged with mishandling classified information (she wasn't).  You're resume is full of repeated business failures?  Make the false claim that your opponent's record of service to her country is meaningless because [honestly I'm not sure why he claimed that].  For every one of Trump's weaknesses and failures as a candidate, his "defense" has always been a baseless attack on the opposition for the exact same thing.  Try to sow dissent, introduce confusion, muddle the issue.

In this case, Trump is violating decades of US foreign policy, apparently on a whim, on Twitter, over the objection of our nation's diplomats.  Whatever wild claims you want to make about Obama are irrelevant to that criticism.  If anything, your attacks on Obama reinforce the idea that you agree with us that this is a horrible thing to do be doing, you hated it when Obama supposedly did it, and now you also hate it when Trump is doing it even more.

If you want to defend Trump's blatant disregard for diplomatic protocols, please do so on some grounds other than "I think the other guy sort of did that too."  For example, I know people who think Twitter is the CORRECT avenue to negotiate international treaties and that Trump is saving America by cutting out all that formal bullshit and just publicly announcing every step in his process in a 3am tweet.  If you believe that, or have some other defense of Trump's repeated diplomatic missteps, go ahead and make your case.  But you can stop making up shit that isn't even relevant just to confuse people.

I expect your response to this post to be "sol is making up shit that isn't even relevant just to confuse people!"

Lagom

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #349 on: December 03, 2016, 11:14:07 AM »
Given that he has been declining intelligence briefings, I do not suspect that he has a genius master plan up his sleeve...

In Obama's first 6 years in office, he skipped 58% of all security briefings and no one on the left bothered to complain, yet Trump isn't even in office and suddenly the left is having a meltdown because he hasn't attended every single briefing.

How does one reason with such hypocrisy?

One can forgive a president with years of experience skipping briefings.  How many did he miss in the months after the election when he needed to get up to speed?  Are you being purposefully obtuse?

music lover is a hyper partisan rightwinger, so yes. Also, his claim is false and, unsurprisingly, based on a partisan rightwing propaganda article:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/the-bogus-claim-that-obama-skips-his-intelligence-briefings/2012/09/22/100cb63e-04fc-11e2-8102-ebee9c66e190_blog.html?utm_term=.fb1ab726aeb3

Now, it's legitimate to ask if Trump is maybe doing the same (reading it daily but not always having an in person meeting), although given his frightful lack of experience and foreign policy knowledge, I would still call even that a dereliction of duties if he really wants to take the job seriously.

The Twitter stuff falls into the category of so obviously bad that I would be surprised if Trump supporters even make much of an effort to defend it. Too much cognitive dissonance to be found there. Completely ignoring it is the safer option.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2016, 11:17:09 AM by Lagom »