Author Topic: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?  (Read 366868 times)

hoping2retire35

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1286
  • Location: UPCOUNTRY CAROLINA
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2850 on: April 07, 2017, 05:36:42 AM »
Lying, son of a bitch.

KBecks

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1258
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2851 on: April 07, 2017, 06:02:55 AM »

There is a lot of truth in this.  But it ignores the elephant in the room: the concerted efforts by Russia to influence the election through the leaking of emails and the torrent of disinformation ("fake news") from Russian bots on Facebook and Twitter which drowned out the normal social media content and replaced it with Hilary hatespeech targeted at Republicans and Bernie supporters.

Hilary was not a "terrible" candidate.  She had her flaws, as do all candidates, but she was a better candidate than Trump.  The fact that even someone sympathetic can describe her as terrible without a thought just indicates how all-pervasive the Russian disinformation campaign became.

I mean, "lock her up"?  And "we couldn't possibly have a Presidential candidate who is under FBI investigation"?  Tell me now, who was really the terrible candidate?

I would have mentioned Russia too, but my post was already getting very long. Also I'm kind of waiting to see what comes from the investigations. I agree - it's clear that Russian trolls (Internet Research Agency types) were all over reddit, for example, pushing anti-HRC stuff and pro Trump BS. My sense is that Russian involvement went way beyond just chatting with /paying off Manafort and others. Hopefully the investigations to come will clarify just what went down in those deals. The Rosnef sale looks bad, along with much else. Adam Schiff summed it up well in his testimony.

I'm saying she was strategically a "terrible" candidate - not because I bought into the propaganda against her, but because I personally knew so many who had. Sure, I didn't like some of her work as Sec of State, but I think she would have been a fine president. Obviously she was a better candidate than Trump. Hell, she was a better candidate than all of the ~17 GOP candidates. I would have voted for her over all of them.

When I wrote "terrible" I meant she was "possibly unelectable."  And you don't run a possibly-unelectable candidate against a monster like Trump. I mean, early on, they actually tried to push for Trump as their pied piper candidate. Gah.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with that last paragraph.
The last paragraph was things said about Hillary during the campaign which are considerably more true of Trump in office than they ever were of Hillary as a candidate.

Hillary was not "possibly unelectable" until the Russians got after her with their insidious propaganda.  They are a lot smarter about their propaganda than they used to be - a lot of it is subtle and clever as well as some of it being obvious and crude.

I think Hillary's problem was that she tried to power through the campaign on her own terms without realising (how could she) just how significant the Russian propaganda campaign against her would be.  That meant that she took the high moral ground against Trump, rather than getting down in the muck with him.  I'm not sure whether any other approach would have done better, and until Comey fell for the Russian dirty tricks over the Weiner emails two weeks before election date it was working well enough.

Edited to add: it didn't help the Hillary was a woman and that apparently sexism is even more deeply ingrained in the USA than in most developed societies.

This concept that Russia is the reason Hillary is hated is total bullshit.  Hillary fucked up her campaign in the rust belt and took a lot of votes for granted, while Trump hustled in those states to get more votes and win.   It's very convenient for Hillary to say it was Russia's fault rather than look at her own failures.  All of this is posturing so she can be viable for some other government position or to run again  Play the victim Hillary.  It's so weak.

jrhampt

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1025
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Connecticut
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2852 on: April 07, 2017, 06:07:33 AM »
^^^. She didn't come up with this on her own...this is what our own intelligence agencies say.  Do you think they are making up shit too?

KBecks

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1258
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2853 on: April 07, 2017, 06:12:19 AM »
Post some links to the evidence, then.  The whole thing is a clown show.  Hillary is getting two more minutes of "fame" here and there off of it and she's using it to try to re-build her political capital.   She's going to milk "Russian hacking" for as long as she can to keep her face in front of the cameras, whether there is any real evidence or not.   

Also, I was on Facebook before the election and nearly everything I saw was pro-liberal.  I didn't experience anything that smelled like fake news getting pumped into my feed to manipulate me -- *as if* I base my votes on fucking Facebook.

And you cannot deny her weak campaigning in the Rust belt.  That's all on her.



« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 06:14:01 AM by KBecks »

NoStacheOhio

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2145
  • Location: Cleveland
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2854 on: April 07, 2017, 06:23:14 AM »
I just wanted to be the first to go on record suggesting that today's impact of a Trump Presidency is unilateral military action against a UN member state, without the approval of the UN security council, leading to world war 3.  Hooray!

Well, it could have been worse.  He could have sent in nukes, like he suggested during the campaign he would.

Unfortunately Obama set the precedent that the President can go to war unilaterally. He should have been impeached for Libya and Trump should be for this, but Congress doesn't have the guts.

That precedent existed at least as far back as Bush I.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/digging-out-of-a-hole/

hoping2retire35

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1286
  • Location: UPCOUNTRY CAROLINA
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2855 on: April 07, 2017, 06:36:36 AM »
^^^. She didn't come up with this on her own...this is what our own intelligence agencies say.  Do you think they are making up shit too?
Yes. Next they will say that Syria's Assad is using nerve gas on his own people so our military has an excuse to go to war there.

 Wait...what?

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2951
  • Location: Emmaus, PA
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2856 on: April 07, 2017, 06:53:50 AM »
Hillary Clinton lost, and she will never be President. Can we shut up about her now?

(She would have attacked Syria illegally, too.)

Just Joe

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1872
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2857 on: April 07, 2017, 08:08:23 AM »
Realistic impacts of Trump's presidency? Well as of this morning, 59 tomahawk missiles...

I wonder what Xi thought of this attack while being hosted in FL.

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6620
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2858 on: April 07, 2017, 08:36:00 AM »
Realistic impacts of Trump's presidency? Well as of this morning, 59 tomahawk missiles...

Like I said yesterday, I'm somewhat heartened that Trump didn't just send a nuclear ICBM.  I take that as a sign that he's finally found some security council advisors who have half a clue.  That's progress!
sol will be totally offline for most of June 2018.  You cannot reach me.  You will not hear from me.  I am not dead, just away from civilization.

Just Joe

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1872
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2859 on: April 07, 2017, 08:44:42 AM »
They've hidden the real launch codes between two books in the Pentagon... Trump only has the Powerball numbers from last year.

tarheeldan

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 723
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2860 on: April 07, 2017, 08:54:08 AM »
They've hidden the real launch codes between two books in the Pentagon... Trump only has the Powerball numbers from last year.

LOL! Thank you for that.

Gondolin

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 494
  • Location: Northern VA
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2861 on: April 07, 2017, 09:35:40 AM »
Quote
Next they will say that Syria's Assad is using nerve gas on his own people so our military has an excuse to go to war there.

You know this conspiracy has to be already making the rounds. Putin told Assad to use a gas attack and then told Trump to respond with force as a prelude to a major US invasion which will distract from the hacking scandal which threatens to reveal that Putin and Trump are blood brother members of the NWO Satanist government. After that it's all chemtrails, Rothchilds, False flag, weed cures cancer, Flat earth, clonus the part horror, etc.
"There cannot be two skies"

tarheeldan

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 723
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2862 on: April 07, 2017, 09:45:00 AM »
Don't forget the Illuminati, Free Masons, robots, and aliens!!

Glenstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1646
  • Age: 186
  • Location: Seattle!
  • Target FI date 2027 (maybe?)
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2863 on: April 07, 2017, 09:49:07 AM »
Don't forget the Illuminati, Free Masons, robots, and aliens!!
And the shadow government! Can't forget the shadow government!
No, really. I spend a lot of time thinking about rocks.

iris lily

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2711
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2864 on: April 07, 2017, 09:49:45 AM »
They've hidden the real launch codes between two books in the Pentagon... Trump only has the Powerball numbers from last year.

LOL! Thank you for that.

Why do you think Ivanka has moved into the White House? She is tasked with keeping good old Dad away from the red button.

Glenstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1646
  • Age: 186
  • Location: Seattle!
  • Target FI date 2027 (maybe?)
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2865 on: April 07, 2017, 09:57:49 AM »
We should also not forget that Neil Gorsuch was confirmed today after the Senate changed the rules for nomination.

From a procedural standpoint, it strikes me as strange that it takes fewer votes to change a rule than a rule that requires a number of votes requires. In other words, if there is a procedural rule requires a 2/3 majority (or whatever), then it should also require that number of votes to change that rule. But, such are the rules of the Senate. Hurrah!
No, really. I spend a lot of time thinking about rocks.

NoStacheOhio

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2145
  • Location: Cleveland
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2866 on: April 07, 2017, 10:20:07 AM »
They've hidden the real launch codes between two books in the Pentagon... Trump only has the Powerball numbers from last year.

LOL! Thank you for that.

Why do you think Ivanka has moved into the White House? She is tasked with keeping good old Dad away from the red button.

Except on the Sabbath.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/digging-out-of-a-hole/

hoping2retire35

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1286
  • Location: UPCOUNTRY CAROLINA
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2867 on: April 07, 2017, 10:22:49 AM »
They've hidden the real launch codes between two books in the Pentagon... Trump only has the Powerball numbers from last year.

LOL! Thank you for that.

Why do you think Ivanka has moved into the White House? She is tasked with keeping good old Dad away from the red button.

Except on the Sabbath.
? her sabbath is tomorrow.

hoping2retire35

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1286
  • Location: UPCOUNTRY CAROLINA
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2868 on: April 07, 2017, 10:28:04 AM »
Quote
Next they will say that Syria's Assad is using nerve gas on his own people so our military has an excuse to go to war there.

You know this conspiracy has to be already making the rounds. Putin told Assad to use a gas attack and then told Trump to respond with force as a prelude to a major US invasion which will distract from the hacking scandal which threatens to reveal that Putin and Trump are blood brother members of the NWO Satanist government. After that it's all chemtrails, Rothchilds, False flag, weed cures cancer, Flat earth, clonus the part horror, etc.

A lot of ways that could have happened. I really doubt anyone at our bases is altering satellite data or something.

Could be pretty easy for the rebels to fake this. They know Assad is beginning to attack a town. They have a way to know when a plane takes off and when bombs will be dropped. they know the approximate targets. They have nerve gas. They blow it up when the plane drops the bombs....

We get into another quagmire.

NoStacheOhio

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2145
  • Location: Cleveland
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2869 on: April 07, 2017, 10:40:54 AM »
They've hidden the real launch codes between two books in the Pentagon... Trump only has the Powerball numbers from last year.

LOL! Thank you for that.

Why do you think Ivanka has moved into the White House? She is tasked with keeping good old Dad away from the red button.

Except on the Sabbath.
? her sabbath is tomorrow.

Yeah, so if he does something nutso tomorrow, there's your answer.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/digging-out-of-a-hole/

Glenstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1646
  • Age: 186
  • Location: Seattle!
  • Target FI date 2027 (maybe?)
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2870 on: April 07, 2017, 10:41:34 AM »
Quote
Next they will say that Syria's Assad is using nerve gas on his own people so our military has an excuse to go to war there.

You know this conspiracy has to be already making the rounds. Putin told Assad to use a gas attack and then told Trump to respond with force as a prelude to a major US invasion which will distract from the hacking scandal which threatens to reveal that Putin and Trump are blood brother members of the NWO Satanist government. After that it's all chemtrails, Rothchilds, False flag, weed cures cancer, Flat earth, clonus the part horror, etc.

A lot of ways that could have happened. I really doubt anyone at our bases is altering satellite data or something.

Could be pretty easy for the rebels to fake this. They know Assad is beginning to attack a town. They have a way to know when a plane takes off and when bombs will be dropped. they know the approximate targets. They have nerve gas. They blow it up when the plane drops the bombs....

We get into another quagmire.

... or maybe it is consistent with decades of the Assad family style of rule. Here's an example from Assad's father in 1981: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Hama_massacre

Assad's well-documented use of torture at a scale that is a bit tough to comprehend:
http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-syria-prisons-torture-20160817-snap-story.html
https://www.hrw.org/report/2015/12/16/if-dead-could-speak/mass-deaths-and-torture-syrias-detention-facilities

That Assad has used chemcial weapons on his own people just a few years ago:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghouta_chemical_attack

... and that it is highly unlikely that the removal of chemical weapons from Syria in 2014 was complete. Russia has been a long-standing ally of Syria for economic and military interests for a long time and has an obvious motivation (and long track record in many instances) of spreading disinformation, such as that the rebels procured sarin and used it as a false flag op.
No, really. I spend a lot of time thinking about rocks.

hoping2retire35

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1286
  • Location: UPCOUNTRY CAROLINA
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2871 on: April 07, 2017, 10:55:47 AM »
They've hidden the real launch codes between two books in the Pentagon... Trump only has the Powerball numbers from last year.

LOL! Thank you for that.

Why do you think Ivanka has moved into the White House? She is tasked with keeping good old Dad away from the red button.

Except on the Sabbath.
? her sabbath is tomorrow.

Yeah, so if he does something nutso tomorrow, there's your answer.
ok. I thought you were implying since the missiles were launched this morning it must have been because she was not there to stop him. Miscommunication.

hoping2retire35

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1286
  • Location: UPCOUNTRY CAROLINA
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2872 on: April 07, 2017, 11:03:42 AM »
Quote
Next they will say that Syria's Assad is using nerve gas on his own people so our military has an excuse to go to war there.

You know this conspiracy has to be already making the rounds. Putin told Assad to use a gas attack and then told Trump to respond with force as a prelude to a major US invasion which will distract from the hacking scandal which threatens to reveal that Putin and Trump are blood brother members of the NWO Satanist government. After that it's all chemtrails, Rothchilds, False flag, weed cures cancer, Flat earth, clonus the part horror, etc.

A lot of ways that could have happened. I really doubt anyone at our bases is altering satellite data or something.

Could be pretty easy for the rebels to fake this. They know Assad is beginning to attack a town. They have a way to know when a plane takes off and when bombs will be dropped. they know the approximate targets. They have nerve gas. They blow it up when the plane drops the bombs....

We get into another quagmire.

... or maybe it is consistent with decades of the Assad family style of rule. Here's an example from Assad's father in 1981: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Hama_massacre

That was his dad. He knows chem/bio weapons are off the table if he wants to keep is position. Granted he is a dictator but just seems dumb, and even in the short term military analysis, dumb

Assad's well-documented use of torture at a scale that is a bit tough to comprehend:
http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-syria-prisons-torture-20160817-snap-story.html
https://www.hrw.org/report/2015/12/16/if-dead-could-speak/mass-deaths-and-torture-syrias-detention-facilities

Yes, he is a dictator. that is why they call them dictators.

That Assad has used chemcial weapons on his own people just a few years ago:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghouta_chemical_attack

... and that it is highly unlikely that the removal of chemical weapons from Syria in 2014 was complete. Russia has been a long-standing ally of Syria for economic and military interests for a long time and has an obvious motivation (and long track record in many instances) of spreading disinformation, such as that the rebels procured sarin and used it as a false flag op.

my points are bolded; i hate to overly quote-post.

Either way the cui bono here is for the rebels to have planted this, see; 59 tomahawk missiles.

Glenstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1646
  • Age: 186
  • Location: Seattle!
  • Target FI date 2027 (maybe?)
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2873 on: April 07, 2017, 11:57:07 AM »

my points are bolded; i hate to overly quote-post.

Either way the cui bono here is for the rebels to have planted this, see; 59 tomahawk missiles.

But, that the rebels planted this is not actually proven, and appears to be promoted only by Assad, Russia, and some fringe news sources. It is far more probable that Assad assumed that he could get away with it because of Trump's proclaimed realpolitik approach in which he said that we had to just accept that Assad was probably going to remain in power.

Why would Assad do it? For the same reason he (and his father before him) have generally adopted a scorched earth policy: destroy the hope of any who may oppose the regime. A gas attack is terrible and if he assumed that Trump would do nothing, would further the psychological aspects of the war campaign. This is why they bomb aid convoys just as they are arriving, etc, etc, etc.
No, really. I spend a lot of time thinking about rocks.

NoStacheOhio

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2145
  • Location: Cleveland
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2874 on: April 07, 2017, 12:43:30 PM »
They were for sure dropping barrel bombs from helicopters at altitude in an urban environment. There's no reason to think they wouldn't use sarin. I haven't spent a ton of time digging through the various claims on the most recent attack, but nothing about it is in any way surprising.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/digging-out-of-a-hole/

DoubleDown

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1995
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2875 on: April 07, 2017, 01:48:36 PM »
Plus, isn't the burden of evidence on the "alternate" (to be generous) or conspiratorial theory over the more obvious, simple explanation? Occam's Razor applies. The obvious explanation is the Assad regime used chemical weapons on the populace, with plenty of evidence to support that. I've seen ZERO evidence supporting the alternate claim it was engineered by "the rebels."

Using the "cui bono" ("who benefits" -- I had to look it up) standard might be interesting for us internet sleuths, but it is hardly convincing. That is the exact standard floated by 9/11 conspirators claiming the Israelis or military industrial complex engineered the attacks on New York and D.C. (also with no evidence). This alternate-facts explanation floated by, who guessed it, Russia and Syria, that the Syrian chemical attack was engineered by the regime opposition, smells just like the 9/11 and other ridiculous like-minded conspiracies to me (no horrible pun intended).
"Not all quotes on the internet are accurate" -- Abraham Lincoln

NoStacheOhio

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2145
  • Location: Cleveland
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2876 on: April 07, 2017, 04:16:01 PM »
In other news, the airbase is already operational. Because of course it is.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/digging-out-of-a-hole/

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6620
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2877 on: April 07, 2017, 04:20:35 PM »
In other news, the airbase is already operational. Because of course it is.

Wait, you mean we spent a hundred million dollars in cruise missiles to deactivate an airstrip for 14 hours?  That doesn't seem very cost effective...
sol will be totally offline for most of June 2018.  You cannot reach me.  You will not hear from me.  I am not dead, just away from civilization.

Glenstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1646
  • Age: 186
  • Location: Seattle!
  • Target FI date 2027 (maybe?)
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2878 on: April 07, 2017, 04:58:56 PM »
In other news, the airbase is already operational. Because of course it is.

Wait, you mean we spent a hundred million dollars in cruise missiles to deactivate an airstrip for 14 hours?  That doesn't seem very cost effective...
Jeez. I wonder if maybe the Russians tipped the Syrians off seeing as how we alerted the Russians an hour before the strikes?
No, really. I spend a lot of time thinking about rocks.

DoubleDown

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1995
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2879 on: April 07, 2017, 05:26:29 PM »
NBC News reports 24 Syrian aircraft were destroyed, plus significant damage to structures. So while the air base may or may not be operational (depending on who we are to believe), destroying 24 aircraft is at least not trivial.
"Not all quotes on the internet are accurate" -- Abraham Lincoln

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6620
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2880 on: April 07, 2017, 06:14:52 PM »
destroying 24 aircraft is at least not trivial.

I hope those 24 aircraft were worth at least four million US dollars each, or else they got the better end of this trade.  Cruise missiles are expensive.
sol will be totally offline for most of June 2018.  You cannot reach me.  You will not hear from me.  I am not dead, just away from civilization.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 735
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2881 on: April 07, 2017, 06:29:20 PM »
The attack, though mostly symbolic, was a modestly good move by Trump since it backs him out of the non-interventionist corner he painted himself into. He will now be more credible when speaking of red lines. The issues regarding the War Resolution Act of 1973 are irrelevant given the historical precedent of ignoring the letter (if not the spirit) of that legislation.

Abe

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 977
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2882 on: April 07, 2017, 09:09:51 PM »
In other news, the airbase is already operational. Because of course it is.

Wait, you mean we spent a hundred million dollars in cruise missiles to deactivate an airstrip for 14 hours?  That doesn't seem very cost effective...

Trump always secures great deals because he speaks his mind and is a successful businessman, etc etc

In college, a history professor of mine who was an officer in the US Air Force was in charge of targeting VC assets. He said to us "We used to ask...if a $80k bomb hits a bamboo bridge, did the bomb destroy the bridge, or did the bridge destroy the bomb?"

KBecks

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1258
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2883 on: April 08, 2017, 06:34:05 AM »
They've hidden the real launch codes between two books in the Pentagon... Trump only has the Powerball numbers from last year.

LOL! Thank you for that.

Why do you think Ivanka has moved into the White House? She is tasked with keeping good old Dad away from the red button.

Except on the Sabbath.

Anti-Semitic much, or what's your point, then?

NoStacheOhio

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2145
  • Location: Cleveland
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2884 on: April 08, 2017, 07:12:45 AM »
The attack, though mostly symbolic, was a modestly good move by Trump since it backs him out of the non-interventionist corner he painted himself into. He will now be more credible when speaking of red lines. The issues regarding the War Resolution Act of 1973 are irrelevant given the historical precedent of ignoring the letter (if not the spirit) of that legislation.

No, it was a terrible move because it put us in a less secure position in the region. All of the agreements about not shooting down each others' aircraft are out the window. The deescalation hotline is dead. The Russians are putting in more advanced SAM batteries. We didn't even hit the building where they kept the sarin. We didn't disable the runway. It was worse than useless. It was actively bad for American interests in the region. Going forward, we're going to be dealing with a major area-denial situation that previously didn't exist. Good luck trying to keep all those 5th gen stealth fighters on station when the tankers can't get close enough.

It was a fucking stupid move. Although, I can sort of understand it from the DoD's perspective. The "wait for the right opportunity" option was probably off the table per Trump. A Tomahawk strike was probably the least bad option, and looks good on TV.


Except on the Sabbath.

Anti-Semitic much, or what's your point, then?

No, not being anti-Semitic at all. My point was that a lot of the crazier shit he Tweeted during the campaign happened when his daughter was observing the Sabbath. Presumably, she hasn't really been around to manage any of that since the inauguration. Maybe it'll improve now that she's in the White House, except on the Sabbath.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/digging-out-of-a-hole/

wenchsenior

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1613
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2885 on: April 08, 2017, 07:30:58 AM »
NBC News reports 24 Syrian aircraft were destroyed, plus significant damage to structures. So while the air base may or may not be operational (depending on who we are to believe), destroying 24 aircraft is at least not trivial.

Unless it was like the Davis-Monthan 'bone yard'.  That would be kind of funny, though.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 10911
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2886 on: April 08, 2017, 07:33:27 AM »
destroying 24 aircraft is at least not trivial.

I hope those 24 aircraft were worth at least four million US dollars each, or else they got the better end of this trade.  Cruise missiles are expensive.

Eh.  The US military has never been concerned about cost effectiveness.  Look at the money spent bombing tents and caves in Afghanistan.  You don't get use a 600 billion dollar a year budget and worry about pinching pennies.

DavidAnnArbor

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1618
  • Age: 52
  • Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2887 on: April 08, 2017, 07:34:19 AM »

No, it was a terrible move because it put us in a less secure position in the region. All of the agreements about not shooting down each others' aircraft are out the window. The deescalation hotline is dead. The Russians are putting in more advanced SAM batteries. We didn't even hit the building where they kept the sarin. We didn't disable the runway. It was worse than useless. It was actively bad for American interests in the region. Going forward, we're going to be dealing with a major area-denial situation that previously didn't exist. Good luck trying to keep all those 5th gen stealth fighters on station when the tankers can't get close enough.

It was a fucking stupid move. Although, I can sort of understand it from the DoD's perspective. The "wait for the right opportunity" option was probably off the table per Trump. A Tomahawk strike was probably the least bad option, and looks good on TV.


So what is the red line for taking action ? 

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2957
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2888 on: April 08, 2017, 09:18:24 AM »

No, it was a terrible move because it put us in a less secure position in the region. All of the agreements about not shooting down each others' aircraft are out the window. The deescalation hotline is dead. The Russians are putting in more advanced SAM batteries. We didn't even hit the building where they kept the sarin. We didn't disable the runway. It was worse than useless. It was actively bad for American interests in the region. Going forward, we're going to be dealing with a major area-denial situation that previously didn't exist. Good luck trying to keep all those 5th gen stealth fighters on station when the tankers can't get close enough.

It was a fucking stupid move. Although, I can sort of understand it from the DoD's perspective. The "wait for the right opportunity" option was probably off the table per Trump. A Tomahawk strike was probably the least bad option, and looks good on TV.


So what is the red line for taking action ?

Apparently, it's not use of chemical weapons. Assad did it again yesterday, one day after the bomb strike. Trump is apparently not going to act this time.

http://occupydemocrats.com/2017/04/07/assad-just-responded-trumps-strike-gassing-innocent-civilians/
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

NoStacheOhio

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2145
  • Location: Cleveland
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2889 on: April 08, 2017, 11:10:34 AM »

No, it was a terrible move because it put us in a less secure position in the region. All of the agreements about not shooting down each others' aircraft are out the window. The deescalation hotline is dead. The Russians are putting in more advanced SAM batteries. We didn't even hit the building where they kept the sarin. We didn't disable the runway. It was worse than useless. It was actively bad for American interests in the region. Going forward, we're going to be dealing with a major area-denial situation that previously didn't exist. Good luck trying to keep all those 5th gen stealth fighters on station when the tankers can't get close enough.

It was a fucking stupid move. Although, I can sort of understand it from the DoD's perspective. The "wait for the right opportunity" option was probably off the table per Trump. A Tomahawk strike was probably the least bad option, and looks good on TV.


So what is the red line for taking action ?

It's not even about the red lines. Using chemical weapons is horrible and inhumane, but maybe biding our time and waiting for an opportunity for a decisive strike was the better option.

Lobbing Tomahawks was pointless and did nothing but hurt us. If we were going to say "fuck it," and torpedo the tenuous arrangement we had in the region, then at least make it a clean job. A flight of B2s dropping JDAMs would be a better choice for targeting an airfield. They didn't even bother to pretend to hit the runway. If anything, our response makes us look even weaker, and encourages more bad behavior. Now, Assad (and whoever else) can basically work under the assumption that heinous war crimes will be met with token fireworks and plenty of advance notice.

It's fucking amateur hour at the top here. God only knows what the mid-level military folks were thinking when the orders came through. It couldn't have been pleasant.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/digging-out-of-a-hole/

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 735
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2890 on: April 08, 2017, 11:39:20 AM »
The attack, though mostly symbolic, was a modestly good move by Trump since it backs him out of the non-interventionist corner he painted himself into. He will now be more credible when speaking of red lines. The issues regarding the War Resolution Act of 1973 are irrelevant given the historical precedent of ignoring the letter (if not the spirit) of that legislation.

No, it was a terrible move because it put us in a less secure position in the region. All of the agreements about not shooting down each others' aircraft are out the window. The deescalation hotline is dead. The Russians are putting in more advanced SAM batteries. We didn't even hit the building where they kept the sarin. We didn't disable the runway. It was worse than useless. It was actively bad for American interests in the region. Going forward, we're going to be dealing with a major area-denial situation that previously didn't exist. Good luck trying to keep all those 5th gen stealth fighters on station when the tankers can't get close enough.

It was a fucking stupid move. Although, I can sort of understand it from the DoD's perspective. The "wait for the right opportunity" option was probably off the table per Trump. A Tomahawk strike was probably the least bad option, and looks good on TV.
The Russians were given advance notice of the attack and Putin embraces realpolitik wholeheartedly so that he knows to ignore this operation (and because we know this about Putin [and he knows that we know], the attack likely calculated all of this in the background; Trump might be a moron but Mattis and McMaster are not).

My point wasn't arguing about the US's (vaguely defined) interests in the area nor was it about the efficacy of this attack; rather, the critical point was to redefine Trump's dovish foreign policy tilt in favor of one where military action is credible. I suspect had Hilary won, al-Assad would not have used chemical weapons (assuming the motivation was to test Trump's resolve rather than an unauthorized use not centrally coordinated by al-Assad) because of Hillary's more hawkish stance.

Secondly, Trump practically had to do something like this after talking about red lines. It may have been a sloppy thoughtless mistake to brashly speak the way he did about the situation in Syria, but once he did, not following through with some action would make Trump appear extremely weak to the detriment of US foreign policy in general.

Which brings me to the last point: one can't take this Syria mission a la carte while ignoring its impact on other US objectives around the world. This attack gives the US more sabre-rattling credibility in "negotiating" other hot-spots, like North Korea.


NoStacheOhio

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2145
  • Location: Cleveland
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/digging-out-of-a-hole/

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 735
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2892 on: April 08, 2017, 12:25:26 PM »
Of course Russia has to say things like that to save face but if you actually read the USNI article with the misleading headline, the US officials all claim the deconfliction network is still in place (further proof of this is that Zero Hedge [lol] picked up the story).

The RT article is about military hardware deployed years ago (does Putin have a DeLorean?).

Perhaps of interest, a NYTimes take on the strike.

NoStacheOhio

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2145
  • Location: Cleveland
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2893 on: April 08, 2017, 02:49:08 PM »
Of course Russia has to say things like that to save face but if you actually read the USNI article with the misleading headline, the US officials all claim the deconfliction network is still in place (further proof of this is that Zero Hedge [lol] picked up the story).

The RT article is about military hardware deployed years ago (does Putin have a DeLorean?).

Perhaps of interest, a NYTimes take on the strike.

That article does nothing to make Trump look more credible.

The point remains: the strike was a joke.

The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/digging-out-of-a-hole/

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 735
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2894 on: April 08, 2017, 05:59:37 PM »
Of course Russia has to say things like that to save face but if you actually read the USNI article with the misleading headline, the US officials all claim the deconfliction network is still in place (further proof of this is that Zero Hedge [lol] picked up the story).

The RT article is about military hardware deployed years ago (does Putin have a DeLorean?).

Perhaps of interest, a NYTimes take on the strike.

That article does nothing to make Trump look more credible.

The point remains: the strike was a joke.
79 senators disagree, including 30 Democrats so this is Trump's first action to find bipartisan support outside of a couple of his administrative nominees.

And the view from Europe as quoted in the NYTimes article:

After the missile strike, Israeli news outlets were filled with headlines like “The Americans Are Back,” and European leaders expressed relief both that he had taken action and that he had not gone too far.

rocketpj

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 642
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2895 on: April 08, 2017, 07:47:36 PM »
I am deeply disturbed by how hard so many politicians and media types are trying to act like this is finally a sign that he is going be a real president.  For a non-complex thinker like Trump, who has an infantile need for approval, that just means he will throw more bombs into hotspots around the world to get another approval fix.

A bunch of bought and paid for senators approving bombing somewhere sounds, to a non-American, like just another weekday in the US. 

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 735
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2896 on: April 08, 2017, 10:44:01 PM »
I am deeply disturbed by how hard so many politicians and media types are trying to act like this is finally a sign that he is going be a real president.  For a non-complex thinker like Trump, who has an infantile need for approval, that just means he will throw more bombs into hotspots around the world to get another approval fix.

A bunch of bought and paid for senators approving bombing somewhere sounds, to a non-American, like just another weekday in the US.

I wouldn't say this is a sign he is going to be "real" (whatever that means) but rather one that indicates the less-crazy members in his entourage are winning the battle of influence over Trump's woefully inadequate attention span.

Who "bought and paid for" the senators in a way that's relevant to their opinion on Syria?

NoStacheOhio

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2145
  • Location: Cleveland
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2897 on: April 09, 2017, 11:49:30 AM »
79 senators disagree, including 30 Democrats so this is Trump's first action to find bipartisan support outside of a couple of his administrative nominees.

And the view from Europe as quoted in the NYTimes article:

After the missile strike, Israeli news outlets were filled with headlines like “The Americans Are Back,” and European leaders expressed relief both that he had taken action and that he had not gone too far.

Show me some kind of evidence, or even someone putting forth an argument, that dropping missiles on that airbase accomplished any kind of military goal. Scoring political points by making stuff go boom is fucking stupid.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/digging-out-of-a-hole/

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2957
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2898 on: April 09, 2017, 01:01:37 PM »
China's mocking us for the missile strike now, too.

Trump is "a weakened politician who needed to flex his muscles."

http://www.rawstory.com/2017/04/china-mocks-trump-missile-strike-after-xi-leaves-us-a-weakened-politician-who-needed-to-flex-his-muscles/

Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 735
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2899 on: April 09, 2017, 01:34:34 PM »
Long after my mom left (escaped?) the USSR she would read Pravda newspaper because she wanted to remind herself why she left. I'm not sure anyone actually took Pravda seriously (let alone literally!) and Xinhua is probably no different. None of this talk about Syria is about the Syrian actions anyway: China has close to zero strategic interest there. It's about maneuvering for credible leverage in east Asia.

Show me some kind of evidence, or even someone putting forth an argument, that dropping missiles on that airbase accomplished any kind of military goal. Scoring political points by making stuff go boom is fucking stupid.
As stated before, there was not a military goal involved in the operation. This was a signal that redefined US foreign policy commitments far beyond Syria. It's ridiculous in a way, yes, but compared to tomahawk missiles, talk is cheap (especially if the talk consists of gold-plated shit, i.e. Trump tweets).