Author Topic: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?  (Read 229667 times)

former player

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2543
  • Location: Avalon
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2800 on: March 22, 2017, 01:16:28 PM »
The public simply don't have the time, energy or ability to make fair informed decisions about all of the Trump administrations possible missteps. On top of that it is a conflict of interest for his base to turn against him over allegations of corruption or deceit. Because many still hope to gain from his Presidency, in the form of jobs, reducing immigration and cutting government programs.
Also, no-one likes to admit that they've been conned by Trump and fallen for Russian propaganda on social media.  There's a lot of inertia right there.
Be frugal and industrious, and you will be free (Ben Franklin)

Gin1984

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4373
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2801 on: March 22, 2017, 01:42:58 PM »
Yeah, the fact that they're violating the policy doesn't make it a bad policy.

Are you saying that you like it when trump lies?

This is just another case of "insurance for everybody" where trump says something he thinks will be popular, then turns around and does the exact opposite.  "Drain the swamp" turned out to mean "staff my cabinet with billionaires and hire foreign agents to run national security" and "insurance for everybody" turned out to mean "24 million fewer people will have insurance" and "Mexico will pay for it" turned out to mean "American taxpayers will pay for it".  Shall I go on?

Trump is a con man.  He will say anything to get his way and enrich himself and his family.  We shouldn't be celebrating his lies just because they sound good, when we know damned well be doesn't mean a word of it.  He is not in control of his own administration, so the things he says are meaningless.

Next you'll be telling is how great it is that Hillary is finally in jail for all of those non-existent crimes.  What a great policy!

We need an anti-Trump who will say exactly this, in exactly this tone. Has to be a business man, success optional. Too bad Ross Perot is too old. Mark Cuban? Framing this bullshit as bullshit needs to happen. By someone of stature. Is there anyone not compromised that can stand and rebuke this administration-with authority?

We have plenty of them but the Republican base has tuned it all out. Trump has what, 80%+ support with registered Republicans. Maybe 50/50 with independents.

Its going to be up to our elected officials to take a stand against the bullshit. The public simply don't have the time, energy or ability to make fair informed decisions about all of the Trump administrations possible missteps. On top of that it is a conflict of interest for his base to turn against him over allegations of corruption or deceit. Because many still hope to gain from his Presidency, in the form of jobs, reducing immigration and cutting government programs.
I can't find that anywhere, do you which poll that came from?

Glenstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1430
  • Age: 185
  • Location: Seattle!
  • Target FI date 2024 (maybe?)

wenchsenior

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1207
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2803 on: March 22, 2017, 04:40:16 PM »
Yeah, the fact that they're violating the policy doesn't make it a bad policy.

Are you saying that you like it when trump lies?

This is just another case of "insurance for everybody" where trump says something he thinks will be popular, then turns around and does the exact opposite.  "Drain the swamp" turned out to mean "staff my cabinet with billionaires and hire foreign agents to run national security" and "insurance for everybody" turned out to mean "24 million fewer people will have insurance" and "Mexico will pay for it" turned out to mean "American taxpayers will pay for it".  Shall I go on?

Trump is a con man.  He will say anything to get his way and enrich himself and his family.  We shouldn't be celebrating his lies just because they sound good, when we know damned well be doesn't mean a word of it.  He is not in control of his own administration, so the things he says are meaningless.

Next you'll be telling is how great it is that Hillary is finally in jail for all of those non-existent crimes.  What a great policy!

We need an anti-Trump who will say exactly this, in exactly this tone. Has to be a business man, success optional. Too bad Ross Perot is too old. Mark Cuban? Framing this bullshit as bullshit needs to happen. By someone of stature. Is there anyone not compromised that can stand and rebuke this administration-with authority?

We have plenty of them but the Republican base has tuned it all out. Trump has what, 80%+ support with registered Republicans. Maybe 50/50 with independents.

Its going to be up to our elected officials to take a stand against the bullshit. The public simply don't have the time, energy or ability to make fair informed decisions about all of the Trump administrations possible missteps. On top of that it is a conflict of interest for his base to turn against him over allegations of corruption or deceit. Because many still hope to gain from his Presidency, in the form of jobs, reducing immigration and cutting government programs.
I can't find that anywhere, do you which poll that came from?

I'm not sure about this month, but last month Pew had their GOP/lean GOP approval for Trump at 84%.  This is why impeachment won't happen even if criminal activity were to be demonstrated. The GOP Congress would have to lead the effort, and as long as their voters support Trump in these kind of numbers, they won't make a move against him.

DoubleDown

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1974
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2804 on: March 22, 2017, 05:22:22 PM »
***IF*** the FBI charged Trump and/or his senior aides with colluding with the Russians to throw the election, or turned up sufficient evidence that it happened even though they decide not to prosecute, the Republicans in Congress would definitely move to impeach Trump. They'd be thrilled to have the cover for throwing his ass out and installing Pence as President. It's win/win for them: Look tough on Russia and treason, get the guy they'd actually prefer to have as president, and get rid of the ridiculous loud-mouth who is full of distractions to their agenda.
"Not all quotes on the internet are accurate" -- Abraham Lincoln

wenchsenior

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1207
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2805 on: March 22, 2017, 05:34:18 PM »
***IF*** the FBI charged Trump and/or his senior aides with colluding with the Russians to throw the election, or turned up sufficient evidence that it happened even though they decide not to prosecute, the Republicans in Congress would definitely move to impeach Trump. They'd be thrilled to have the cover for throwing his ass out and installing Pence as President. It's win/win for them: Look tough on Russia and treason, get the guy they'd actually prefer to have as president, and get rid of the ridiculous loud-mouth who is full of distractions to their agenda.

I agree it would be great for their agenda, but they would risk losing power in the following election if Trump's voters turned against them.  And Trump would do everything in his power to make sure his voters DID retaliate against the GOP in that instance.

dividendman

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 997
  • Age: 35
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2806 on: March 22, 2017, 06:33:51 PM »
Yeah, the fact that they're violating the policy doesn't make it a bad policy.

Are you saying that you like it when trump lies?

This is just another case of "insurance for everybody" where trump says something he thinks will be popular, then turns around and does the exact opposite.  "Drain the swamp" turned out to mean "staff my cabinet with billionaires and hire foreign agents to run national security" and "insurance for everybody" turned out to mean "24 million fewer people will have insurance" and "Mexico will pay for it" turned out to mean "American taxpayers will pay for it".  Shall I go on?

Trump is a con man.  He will say anything to get his way and enrich himself and his family.  We shouldn't be celebrating his lies just because they sound good, when we know damned well be doesn't mean a word of it.  He is not in control of his own administration, so the things he says are meaningless.

Next you'll be telling is how great it is that Hillary is finally in jail for all of those non-existent crimes.  What a great policy!

He obviously lies and he's obviously a con man. He is also a rapist/sexual assaulter and an overall bad piece of shit. All of that being said, he does say some things, lies though they may be, that I agree with. Infrastructure investments, corporate tax cuts and the policy of no lobbying. Maybe he never wants to do any of these things, that doesn't make the policies themselves bad.

Then you can say, so what if he says anything good if he's a piece of shit liar? Yeah, that's a good point. But my impression was he actually got everyone to sign those no lobbying pledges. Again, if there is no consequence then it's bullshit.

Finally, one clear positive impact of Trump is to other countries. The best and brightest of many other countries are leaving the States or not coming at all, China is going to set up a TPP like deal to increase their influence, and other countries are realizing they were using America as a crutch for too many of their exports (e.g Mexico and corn) and will look to other markets.

Kris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2489
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2807 on: March 22, 2017, 07:19:42 PM »
***IF*** the FBI charged Trump and/or his senior aides with colluding with the Russians to throw the election, or turned up sufficient evidence that it happened even though they decide not to prosecute, the Republicans in Congress would definitely move to impeach Trump. They'd be thrilled to have the cover for throwing his ass out and installing Pence as President. It's win/win for them: Look tough on Russia and treason, get the guy they'd actually prefer to have as president, and get rid of the ridiculous loud-mouth who is full of distractions to their agenda.

I agree it would be great for their agenda, but they would risk losing power in the following election if Trump's voters turned against them.  And Trump would do everything in his power to make sure his voters DID retaliate against the GOP in that instance.
.


This. Plus, the longer Trump is in office, the more of his outrageous behavior gets normalized. Meaning that subsequent Republicans will be able to get away with a sh*tload more. The next Republican administration will look a lot more like the Trump administration in terms of bending the rules, graft, and cronyism, though done less blatantly and more carefully. And people won't freak out nearly as much as they should, because by comparison to Trump it will look practically Boy Scout-like. Why would they want to stop Trump for layong the groundwork for them?
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

rocketpj

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 617
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2808 on: March 22, 2017, 08:46:43 PM »
So, now it's coming out that the FBI has evidence members of Trump's team coordinated with Russian intelligence (timing the Wikileaks dump).

When your president wins an election by colluding with a foreign power, what does that mean for your country?  If the dominant narrative from the governing party is that the leaks are the issue, rather than what is being leaked...

You guys are fucked unless you can figure out a way to save your constitution from these people.  Lots of countries have meaningless constitutions.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 522
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2809 on: March 22, 2017, 09:07:06 PM »
So, now it's coming out that the FBI has evidence members of Trump's team coordinated with Russian intelligence (timing the Wikileaks dump).

When your president wins an election by colluding with a foreign power, what does that mean for your country?  If the dominant narrative from the governing party is that the leaks are the issue, rather than what is being leaked...

You guys are fucked unless you can figure out a way to save your constitution from these people.  Lots of countries have meaningless constitutions.
That would be shocking if concrete evidence emerges and I think it would be the end for the administration. Ryan and the Republicans would be quite happy with Pence (assuming Pence can get out of it unscathed). OTOH I will be happy that all the people who voted for Trump that I assumed to be idiots are proven to be idiots at the end of this ordeal.

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5422
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2810 on: March 22, 2017, 09:33:04 PM »
That would be shocking if concrete evidence emerges and I think it would be the end for the administration.

Not a chance. We already knew trump staffers coordinated with the Russians.  Nobody (republican) cares.  They'll shrug it off.

Trump can do no wrong, with his base.  Nothing will matter.  Trump could admit sexual assault on national tv and they wouldn't care.  Wait, did he already do that?  That's my point.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 522
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2811 on: March 22, 2017, 09:52:56 PM »
That would be shocking if concrete evidence emerges and I think it would be the end for the administration.

Not a chance. We already knew trump staffers coordinated with the Russians.  Nobody (republican) cares.  They'll shrug it off.

Trump can do no wrong, with his base.  Nothing will matter.  Trump could admit sexual assault on national tv and they wouldn't care.  Wait, did he already do that?  That's my point.
AFAIK his staffers and future nominees had some one-off conversations with Kislyak because they were stupid. Stupidity is a complete defense, but coordinating leaks with a foreign government is totally different. I'm not prone to violence or protest but if actual collusion (rather than confusion) is corroborated and no action is undertaken by Congress, it might be Molotov cocktail time.

Johnez

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 615
  • Location: Southern California
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2812 on: March 22, 2017, 10:42:40 PM »
Wow. This sounds like it might actually catch. Would this much info be released if there was nothing behind the investigation?

Malaysia41

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2841
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Half Way Around The World
    • My mmm journal
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2813 on: March 23, 2017, 04:04:15 AM »
I just skimmed a few responses but I really just needed a place to post my thoughts.

I don't even know what to think anymore. He's been in office, what, 60 days or so and I can't keep track of the blunders, potential ethical violations, and short-sighted policy decisions. I pride myself on being a reasonable, thoughtful person, and I don't engage in hyperbole or troll folks on social media or call people names, but...this is f*cking crazy.

It's like (many) Republicans are willing to totally ignore the Russia issues because....well I guess because they don't like the "liberal media?" I mean, I honestly don't understand. What sort of thoughtful person says, "Nah I don't care about knowing more about all the Russia connections. Whatever they are all saying now can't possibly be true." You have the intelligence community getting involved front and center now. I mean, what, is EVERYONE lying BUT Trump?? He's the sole honest person? Seriously?

The whole "no evidence that feeding kids helps kids perform better" thing? WTF? I taught in public schools (for a short time) and I have many family members who work in schools. Kids come to school HUNGRY! They do!  How about you go to work hungry every day and see how well you perform??

And I'll close with this. I have voted for Republican presidents before, as recently as 2008 (yes I voted for McCain). I'm not some extreme person. But this administration has collected the absolutely WORST people  they could gather. EPA, Education, State, I could go on and onu. It's gotten to the point where I don't think I could even be a friend to someone who says, "Oh yeah this is all great! MAGA!!" I mean, we would have no shared values. What's the point?

Try being in my shoes - where you've described my dad, mom, MIL, BIL, SIL, other BIL and somewhat my brother. Every day I read the news. And no - I don't get outraged at the outrage pieces - I get outraged watching congressional hearings on CSPAN and outraged watching POTUS live tweet incoherent bullshit. I don't need pundits to spin me into anger. Reality is sufficient.

When I check in with the GOP members of my family, they've nothing but total approval for this administration. Why? Cuz liberals would bring bureaucracy and that's the ultimate evil. As if we're living in the 70s.

The GOP cult members in my family are unwilling to acknowledge how effective the GOP has been at cowing government agencies into streamlined efficiency. From SS admin to IRS, modern day agencies do a pretty good job. It's not the 1970s anymore. But that's what their news feeds tell them so it must be so and I'm naive for believing scientists and peer reviewed studies.

It's a daily struggle to keep from outright hating my family. Their support of this anit-science, anti-constitution, anti-democratic bullshit could be sowing the seeds of our country's - and perhaps our species - destruction.

Like you, Nick_Miller, I pride myself on being a rational, somewhat dispassionate thinker.  And yet look at what I just wrote in the paragraph above. If you'd shown that to me a year ago I wouldn't believe I wrote that. But it's what I've come to accept.

And I blame it all on the privately funded two party system and the rise of corporate personhood. The GOP is a cult,  but the DNC ain't so great either. Combine their skewed incentives with today's surgical propaganda tools and  the defunding of public education,  and I feel like representative liberal democracy is fucked. Hello authoritarian kleptocracy.

I usually stop myself saying this stuff because I sound like a crackpot. But when my dad emails me saying civil asset forfeiture is totally cool and that trumps doing a fine job and that he's optimistic this congress is going to get some great things done ... well I think I'm seeing things quite clearly.

edit: typos.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2017, 06:56:36 AM by Malaysia41 »
Last one to panic wins!

My Rohingya Refugee Charity (now Tax Exempt!)

I'm an enemy of POTUS, VPOTUS, and the privately funded political system that inflicted them upon us.

golden1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1411
  • Location: MA
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2814 on: March 23, 2017, 06:25:25 AM »
Quote
Not a chance. We already knew trump staffers coordinated with the Russians.  Nobody (republican) cares.  They'll shrug it off.

Trump can do no wrong, with his base.  Nothing will matter.  Trump could admit sexual assault on national tv and they wouldn't care.  Wait, did he already do that?  That's my point.

Yep.  I have given up on the Republicans ever doing anything about Trump.  Honestly, I think we just need to accept that we are no better than the average Banana Republic at this point.  But we are actually way worse, because we are the dominant military power on the planet with enough nukes to destroy every civilization on the planet with plenty left over. 

bacchi

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2103
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2815 on: March 23, 2017, 08:34:50 AM »
Wow. This sounds like it might actually catch. Would this much info be released if there was nothing behind the investigation?

Manafort is the lynchpin. They're looking at his Cyprus money transfers now.

https://www.apnews.com/d43ef4166da6400ab45140978854bbbb


sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5422
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2816 on: March 23, 2017, 09:14:55 AM »
Wow. This sounds like it might actually catch. Would this much info be released if there was nothing behind the investigation?

Manafort is the lynchpin. They're looking at his Cyprus money transfers now.

https://www.apnews.com/d43ef4166da6400ab45140978854bbbb

I still don't understand why any of this is news again.  We already knew that multiple people from the trump campaign worked for the Russians before, during, and after their time with trump.  This was not secret, or even disputed.  The payments were documented.  Their influence on Russian policy was obvious.  They bragged about it on television.  Clinton called him a puppet during the debates and he objected like a kindergartener who was just caught eating boogers.

Maybe the FBI just wants to remind everyone that this shady stuff is kind of shady?  He's a shady president and folks voted for him anyway, I don't think they care.

Even this forum discussed these issues, months ago, and generally concluded that nations (including the US) routinely meddle in foreign elections, without it rising to the level of international armed conflict.  Everyone here seemed to say, "ya, the Russians swayed the election but so what?"

Why are we suddenly aggrieved again?

DoubleDown

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1974
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2817 on: March 23, 2017, 09:22:56 AM »
I think some of you are giving way too much credibility towards Trump's so-called "supporters" and how they wouldn't impeach him for fear of some type of backlash. Trump's supporters are largely poor, working-class white people in rural America. They are not establishment Republicans in Congress. Trump has almost no supporters in Congress. He did not win with establishment Republican support, he won in spite of it. Congressional Republicans (with maybe the exception of Nunes) hold their nose and close their eyes and try to pretend Trump didn't say the things he said, or that they don't matter. Look at what McConnell and Ryan say (or more accurately, don't say) every time they're asked about the most recent, daily outrageousness that emanates from the White House. They don't back him, they only tolerate him because he's President and favorable to their agenda. They would be way more favorable to Pence.

Most voters who voted for Trump didn't think he was some awesome dude. They only thought he was better than Hillary, aka The Devil. They would not deliver some kind of backlash at the polls the next time around if Trump was impeached. The only backlash would be the one that would come anyhow, because Trump has proven to be a reckless disaster. Adding treasonous dealings with Russia would not enamor Trump to those voters the next time around. They'd happily accept a Pence presidency, because Pence is not Hillary.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2017, 09:34:16 AM by DoubleDown »
"Not all quotes on the internet are accurate" -- Abraham Lincoln

wenchsenior

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1207
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2818 on: March 23, 2017, 10:11:47 AM »
I think some of you are giving way too much credibility towards Trump's so-called "supporters" and how they wouldn't impeach him for fear of some type of backlash. Trump's supporters are largely poor, working-class white people in rural America. They are not establishment Republicans in Congress. Trump has almost no supporters in Congress. He did not win with establishment Republican support, he won in spite of it. Congressional Republicans (with maybe the exception of Nunes) hold their nose and close their eyes and try to pretend Trump didn't say the things he said, or that they don't matter. Look at what McConnell and Ryan say (or more accurately, don't say) every time they're asked about the most recent, daily outrageousness that emanates from the White House. They don't back him, they only tolerate him because he's President and favorable to their agenda. They would be way more favorable to Pence.

Most voters who voted for Trump didn't think he was some awesome dude. They only thought he was better than Hillary, aka The Devil. They would not deliver some kind of backlash at the polls the next time around if Trump was impeached. The only backlash would be the one that would come anyhow, because Trump has proven to be a reckless disaster. Adding treasonous dealings with Russia would not enamor Trump to those voters the next time around. They'd happily accept a Pence presidency, because Pence is not Hillary.

I sincerely hope we get to find out who is correct on this point.

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5422
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2819 on: March 23, 2017, 10:41:59 AM »
I sincerely hope we get to find out who is correct on this point.

I have never so desperately wanted to be totally wrong.

But I think recent history backs me up on this.  The president of the United States literally said "they let you do it, you can do anything, grab 'em by the pussy" and people still voted for him.  I'm pretty sure he could lead tomorrow's news cycle with "Russia is the greatest country on earth and America sucks balls" and the red states wouldn't even flinch.  He's untouchable, even for treason, and he knows it.


bacchi

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2103
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2821 on: March 23, 2017, 10:58:45 AM »
Wow. This sounds like it might actually catch. Would this much info be released if there was nothing behind the investigation?

Manafort is the lynchpin. They're looking at his Cyprus money transfers now.

https://www.apnews.com/d43ef4166da6400ab45140978854bbbb

I still don't understand why any of this is news again.  We already knew that multiple people from the trump campaign worked for the Russians before, during, and after their time with trump.  This was not secret, or even disputed.  The payments were documented.  Their influence on Russian policy was obvious.  They bragged about it on television.  Clinton called him a puppet during the debates and he objected like a kindergartener who was just caught eating boogers.

Maybe the FBI just wants to remind everyone that this shady stuff is kind of shady?  He's a shady president and folks voted for him anyway, I don't think they care.

Even this forum discussed these issues, months ago, and generally concluded that nations (including the US) routinely meddle in foreign elections, without it rising to the level of international armed conflict.  Everyone here seemed to say, "ya, the Russians swayed the election but so what?"

Why are we suddenly aggrieved again?

We knew that Manafort was under contract with the Ukraine; we didn't know that he was receiving additional payments from a friend of Putin through a bank in Cyprus, known as a money laundering country.

To answer your question, it's news again and the more that piles on, the more it sways opinions.

You're also way too pessimistic. Eventually even Trumpers will have to admit that he's a con man and a Russian stooge. There will always be that 25% that support him, just like 25% think Nixon wasn't a crook, but his approval rate is 39% and dropping. Given the near 50-50 split, Republicans are starting to look askance at him as well.

« Last Edit: March 23, 2017, 11:15:43 AM by bacchi »

Gin1984

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4373
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2822 on: March 23, 2017, 11:18:48 AM »
I just skimmed a few responses but I really just needed a place to post my thoughts.

I don't even know what to think anymore. He's been in office, what, 60 days or so and I can't keep track of the blunders, potential ethical violations, and short-sighted policy decisions. I pride myself on being a reasonable, thoughtful person, and I don't engage in hyperbole or troll folks on social media or call people names, but...this is f*cking crazy.

It's like (many) Republicans are willing to totally ignore the Russia issues because....well I guess because they don't like the "liberal media?" I mean, I honestly don't understand. What sort of thoughtful person says, "Nah I don't care about knowing more about all the Russia connections. Whatever they are all saying now can't possibly be true." You have the intelligence community getting involved front and center now. I mean, what, is EVERYONE lying BUT Trump?? He's the sole honest person? Seriously?

The whole "no evidence that feeding kids helps kids perform better" thing? WTF? I taught in public schools (for a short time) and I have many family members who work in schools. Kids come to school HUNGRY! They do!  How about you go to work hungry every day and see how well you perform??

And I'll close with this. I have voted for Republican presidents before, as recently as 2008 (yes I voted for McCain). I'm not some extreme person. But this administration has collected the absolutely WORST people  they could gather. EPA, Education, State, I could go on and onu. It's gotten to the point where I don't think I could even be a friend to someone who says, "Oh yeah this is all great! MAGA!!" I mean, we would have no shared values. What's the point?

Try being in my shoes - where you've described my dad, mom, MIL, BIL, SIL, other BIL and somewhat my brother. Every day I read the news. And no - I don't get outraged at the outrage pieces - I get outraged watching congressional hearings on CSPAN and outraged watching POTUS live tweet incoherent bullshit. I don't need pundits to spin me into anger. Reality is sufficient.

When I check in with the GOP members of my family, they've nothing but total approval for this administration. Why? Cuz liberals would bring bureaucracy and that's the ultimate evil. As if we're living in the 70s.

The GOP cult members in my family are unwilling to acknowledge how effective the GOP has been at cowing government agencies into streamlined efficiency. From SS admin to IRS, modern day agencies do a pretty good job. It's not the 1970s anymore. But that's what their news feeds tell them so it must be so and I'm naive for believing scientists and peer reviewed studies.

It's a daily struggle to keep from outright hating my family. Their support of this anit-science, anti-constitution, anti-democratic bullshit could be sowing the seeds of our country's - and perhaps our species - destruction.

Like you, Nick_Miller, I pride myself on being a rational, somewhat dispassionate thinker.  And yet look at what I just wrote in the paragraph above. If you'd shown that to me a year ago I wouldn't believe I wrote that. But it's what I've come to accept.

And I blame it all on the privately funded two party system and the rise of corporate personhood. The GOP is a cult,  but the DNC ain't so great either. Combine their skewed incentives with today's surgical propaganda tools and  the defunding of public education,  and I feel like representative liberal democracy is fucked. Hello authoritarian kleptocracy.

I usually stop myself saying this stuff because I sound like a crackpot. But when my dad emails me saying civil asset forfeiture is totally cool and that trumps doing a fine job and that he's optimistic this congress is going to get some great things done ... well I think I'm seeing things quite clearly.

edit: typos.
And this kind of attitude is why Trump one. Yes, we have uneducated within the GOP who blindly follow Trump and the GOP leadership who will say anything to stay in power even if means giving power to Trump and Russia but we also have people who are saying that the dems are almost as bad which is not even close to reality. I doubt any person saying that has ever worked with the DNC.  I have and have found willingness to teach a want for grassroot input.  What I have also seen is people who have no idea how politics works (or hell, how our government works) who want to walk in and solve the problem without compromise or baby steps and expect it to work.  They also expect to be taken seriously without any knowledge base or willingness to learn.  These are people who would never do this within their own field and would be insulted in anyone tried it with them.  This attitude of, I spent 2hrs on the internet so I know as much as an expert in field is a problem.  And just a side note, who is trying to defund public education and who is trying to fund it, that is a great way to figure out a major difference between the two parties.

NoStacheOhio

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1574
  • Location: Cleveland
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2823 on: March 23, 2017, 12:35:22 PM »
And this kind of attitude is why Trump one. Yes, we have uneducated within the GOP who blindly follow Trump and the GOP leadership who will say anything to stay in power even if means giving power to Trump and Russia but we also have people who are saying that the dems are almost as bad which is not even close to reality. I doubt any person saying that has ever worked with the DNC.  I have and have found willingness to teach a want for grassroot input.  What I have also seen is people who have no idea how politics works (or hell, how our government works) who want to walk in and solve the problem without compromise or baby steps and expect it to work.  They also expect to be taken seriously without any knowledge base or willingness to learn.  These are people who would never do this within their own field and would be insulted in anyone tried it with them.  This attitude of, I spent 2hrs on the internet so I know as much as an expert in field is a problem.  And just a side note, who is trying to defund public education and who is trying to fund it, that is a great way to figure out a major difference between the two parties.

I don't read false equivalency into that post. You can abhor the current Republican officials while still being disenchanted with the Democrats. I think there are a lot of people who fall into this camp. There's a feeling of "there's no place for me in either party." At the end of the day, the Democrats generally side with big money, which isn't great.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/digging-out-of-a-hole/

Gin1984

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4373
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2824 on: March 23, 2017, 12:39:39 PM »
And this kind of attitude is why Trump one. Yes, we have uneducated within the GOP who blindly follow Trump and the GOP leadership who will say anything to stay in power even if means giving power to Trump and Russia but we also have people who are saying that the dems are almost as bad which is not even close to reality. I doubt any person saying that has ever worked with the DNC.  I have and have found willingness to teach a want for grassroot input.  What I have also seen is people who have no idea how politics works (or hell, how our government works) who want to walk in and solve the problem without compromise or baby steps and expect it to work.  They also expect to be taken seriously without any knowledge base or willingness to learn.  These are people who would never do this within their own field and would be insulted in anyone tried it with them.  This attitude of, I spent 2hrs on the internet so I know as much as an expert in field is a problem.  And just a side note, who is trying to defund public education and who is trying to fund it, that is a great way to figure out a major difference between the two parties.

I don't read false equivalency into that post. You can abhor the current Republican officials while still being disenchanted with the Democrats. I think there are a lot of people who fall into this camp. There's a feeling of "there's no place for me in either party." At the end of the day, the Democrats generally side with big money, which isn't great.
They really don't side with big money.  Otherwise we would not have unions.  They need money and therefore they do need to compromise to get elected and get anything done.  And it is the same attitude, if you don't think you have a place, use the dems to learn how it works and make your local area your place.  Yes it means you can't jump to senator or president right off the bat, but that is not a bad thing.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk


Malaysia41

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2841
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Half Way Around The World
    • My mmm journal
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2825 on: March 23, 2017, 12:41:51 PM »


And I blame it all on the privately funded two party system and the rise of corporate personhood. The GOP is a cult,  but the DNC ain't so great either. Combine their skewed incentives with today's surgical propaganda tools and  the defunding of public education,  and I feel like representative liberal democracy is fucked. Hello authoritarian kleptocracy.

I usually stop myself saying this stuff because I sound like a crackpot. But when my dad emails me saying civil asset forfeiture is totally cool and that trumps doing a fine job and that he's optimistic this congress is going to get some great things done ... well I think I'm seeing things quite clearly.

edit: typos.
And this kind of attitude is why Trump one. Yes, we have uneducated within the GOP who blindly follow Trump and the GOP leadership who will say anything to stay in power even if means giving power to Trump and Russia but we also have people who are saying that the dems are almost as bad which is not even close to reality. I doubt any person saying that has ever worked with the DNC.  I have and have found willingness to teach a want for grassroot input.  What I have also seen is people who have no idea how politics works (or hell, how our government works) who want to walk in and solve the problem without compromise or baby steps and expect it to work.  They also expect to be taken seriously without any knowledge base or willingness to learn.  These are people who would never do this within their own field and would be insulted in anyone tried it with them.  This attitude of, I spent 2hrs on the internet so I know as much as an expert in field is a problem.  And just a side note, who is trying to defund public education and who is trying to fund it, that is a great way to figure out a major difference between the two parties.

I disagree - this attitude of mine is not why Trump won. Believe me, I voted for HRC and rallied as many people as I could to vote for her. I agree that there's a massive difference between the two parties and that's why I've voted dem recently.

From my perspective, the DNC/HRC failed at many turns, and Trump capitalized on the Republican Noise Machine that's been in development for 3+ decades, not to mention pivotal help from Cambridge Analytica in the final months that pushed his numbers up in targeted states like Wisconsin and PA. The DNC lost, not because people like me recognize that private funding of elections is bad, but because of tone-deaf mistakes in their campaign, and they lost because the GOP machine is organized and efficient.

The saying that dems need to fall in love with their candidate, while GOPs fall in line behind any yahoo who bubbles up for the nomination is truer now than ever. And THAT's what the DNC is working against. And they're failing. And part of the problem is that they are trying to appease both their big $ donors and their progressive base. If there were no big $ donors, they'd be progressive. Instead, they've been pulled right (for many reasons that could be a whole other topic thread) and have split their constituents. HRC was a terrible candidate to put forward. I personally have nothing against her. But I'm all too aware of the anti HRC campaign that's played out numerous times in my parents home and in all their friends homes and among the regular GOP base for decades. But, incredibly, GOP-sters like my sister and her boyfriend would have voted for Bernie Sanders. But not HRC.

I'm agreeing that the DNC is way better than the GOP from a policy and human perspective. And your experience working with democrats sounds about what I'd imagine it to be. In fact they are so disorganized that only 12% of registered voters in LA county voted in the latest special election. 12. And they were voting for city council members, mayors, etc.  I would think that post-Trump, any and every registered democrat would vow to vote in every election. Nope. From my FB feed - where my college crew mostly lives in LA - people didn't even know there was an election. Shame on the DNC for not getting that message out. Don't they know about ALEC and Grover Norquist and the incredible coordinating activities of the GOP? The GOP holds 32 state legislatures. They need just ONE more and they can pass whatever constitutional amendments they want. I'm terrified of that. The only thing I REALLY care about is global warming / pollution. They could pass an amendment saying that he government is not allowed to regulate emissions from any business activity. Seriously.

I'm an 'unaffiliated' voter now, but it seems to me that the DNC attracts people who believe in science informed policy making. They want competent governance. And they want government to step in and help people with difficult problems. So, I de-registered as a republican last year, and spent 50 euros making sure my primary ballot arrived on time to get Bernie Sanders elected. Then I spent another 50 euros making sure my Nov ballot arrived on time to vote for HRC.

HRC failed to campaign in regions where Rush Limbaugh has been playing for decades. She said something like lots of coal jobs were going to be lost and gave the haters more fuel to burn her with. She was an awful candidate, even if the most qualified person to run for office last year.

My point is that all of this bullshit is the result of our privately funded two party system. Recognizing the systemic problem didn't put Trump in power. Brainwashed GOP cult members voted for him, and democrats who weren't in love with HRC and were bummed their guy got the shaft stayed home. Simple as that. This was the DNC's election to lose and it's all on them.  So they're disorganized. They'd better get organized. I'm doing all I can. I send info to friends in Kansas, Virginia, Ohio and West Virginia nudging them to vote when it's time. I write articles. And I try to point out the big picture once in a while. Which is that a privately funded two party system will lead us to ever worse governance.

Sorry, this turned into another rant. This is why I usually stop myself from posting. Once I start it's difficult to stop short.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2017, 12:44:31 PM by Malaysia41 »
Last one to panic wins!

My Rohingya Refugee Charity (now Tax Exempt!)

I'm an enemy of POTUS, VPOTUS, and the privately funded political system that inflicted them upon us.

NoStacheOhio

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1574
  • Location: Cleveland
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2826 on: March 23, 2017, 12:43:09 PM »
And this kind of attitude is why Trump one. Yes, we have uneducated within the GOP who blindly follow Trump and the GOP leadership who will say anything to stay in power even if means giving power to Trump and Russia but we also have people who are saying that the dems are almost as bad which is not even close to reality. I doubt any person saying that has ever worked with the DNC.  I have and have found willingness to teach a want for grassroot input.  What I have also seen is people who have no idea how politics works (or hell, how our government works) who want to walk in and solve the problem without compromise or baby steps and expect it to work.  They also expect to be taken seriously without any knowledge base or willingness to learn.  These are people who would never do this within their own field and would be insulted in anyone tried it with them.  This attitude of, I spent 2hrs on the internet so I know as much as an expert in field is a problem.  And just a side note, who is trying to defund public education and who is trying to fund it, that is a great way to figure out a major difference between the two parties.

I don't read false equivalency into that post. You can abhor the current Republican officials while still being disenchanted with the Democrats. I think there are a lot of people who fall into this camp. There's a feeling of "there's no place for me in either party." At the end of the day, the Democrats generally side with big money, which isn't great.
They really don't side with big money.  Otherwise we would not have unions.  They need money and therefore they do need to compromise to get elected and get anything done.  And it is the same attitude, if you don't think you have a place, use the dems to learn how it works and make your local area your place.  Yes it means you can't jump to senator or president right off the bat, but that is not a bad thing.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

Not all the time, but enough. Investment banks and pharmaceutical companies come to mind (and I say this having had my childhood funded by pharmaceutical companies).
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/digging-out-of-a-hole/

Malaysia41

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2841
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Half Way Around The World
    • My mmm journal
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2827 on: March 23, 2017, 12:46:04 PM »
And this kind of attitude is why Trump one. Yes, we have uneducated within the GOP who blindly follow Trump and the GOP leadership who will say anything to stay in power even if means giving power to Trump and Russia but we also have people who are saying that the dems are almost as bad which is not even close to reality. I doubt any person saying that has ever worked with the DNC.  I have and have found willingness to teach a want for grassroot input.  What I have also seen is people who have no idea how politics works (or hell, how our government works) who want to walk in and solve the problem without compromise or baby steps and expect it to work.  They also expect to be taken seriously without any knowledge base or willingness to learn.  These are people who would never do this within their own field and would be insulted in anyone tried it with them.  This attitude of, I spent 2hrs on the internet so I know as much as an expert in field is a problem.  And just a side note, who is trying to defund public education and who is trying to fund it, that is a great way to figure out a major difference between the two parties.

I don't read false equivalency into that post. You can abhor the current Republican officials while still being disenchanted with the Democrats. I think there are a lot of people who fall into this camp. There's a feeling of "there's no place for me in either party." At the end of the day, the Democrats generally side with big money, which isn't great.

Thanks, you summed it up more succinctly than I did, NoStacheOhio.
Last one to panic wins!

My Rohingya Refugee Charity (now Tax Exempt!)

I'm an enemy of POTUS, VPOTUS, and the privately funded political system that inflicted them upon us.

jrhampt

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 990
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Connecticut
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2828 on: March 23, 2017, 12:46:24 PM »
Quote
Not a chance. We already knew trump staffers coordinated with the Russians.  Nobody (republican) cares.  They'll shrug it off.

Trump can do no wrong, with his base.  Nothing will matter.  Trump could admit sexual assault on national tv and they wouldn't care.  Wait, did he already do that?  That's my point.

Yep.  I have given up on the Republicans ever doing anything about Trump.  Honestly, I think we just need to accept that we are no better than the average Banana Republic at this point.  But we are actually way worse, because we are the dominant military power on the planet with enough nukes to destroy every civilization on the planet with plenty left over.

I am not giving up on this.  His approval ratings are starting to tank, and eventually republicans in congress will abandon ship if they get low enough.  We're starting to see people turning against him because of his reckless tweeting and because of Trumpcare.  I am going to keep spreading the word and calling, faxing, and emailing my legislators to tell them that Trumpcare stinks, his "budget" stinks, and I haven't forgotten that Russia helped him steal this presidency.  It's only been 2 months.  Have patience and persist.

former player

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2543
  • Location: Avalon
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2829 on: March 23, 2017, 01:10:48 PM »


And I blame it all on the privately funded two party system and the rise of corporate personhood. The GOP is a cult,  but the DNC ain't so great either. Combine their skewed incentives with today's surgical propaganda tools and  the defunding of public education,  and I feel like representative liberal democracy is fucked. Hello authoritarian kleptocracy.

I usually stop myself saying this stuff because I sound like a crackpot. But when my dad emails me saying civil asset forfeiture is totally cool and that trumps doing a fine job and that he's optimistic this congress is going to get some great things done ... well I think I'm seeing things quite clearly.

edit: typos.
And this kind of attitude is why Trump one. Yes, we have uneducated within the GOP who blindly follow Trump and the GOP leadership who will say anything to stay in power even if means giving power to Trump and Russia but we also have people who are saying that the dems are almost as bad which is not even close to reality. I doubt any person saying that has ever worked with the DNC.  I have and have found willingness to teach a want for grassroot input.  What I have also seen is people who have no idea how politics works (or hell, how our government works) who want to walk in and solve the problem without compromise or baby steps and expect it to work.  They also expect to be taken seriously without any knowledge base or willingness to learn.  These are people who would never do this within their own field and would be insulted in anyone tried it with them.  This attitude of, I spent 2hrs on the internet so I know as much as an expert in field is a problem.  And just a side note, who is trying to defund public education and who is trying to fund it, that is a great way to figure out a major difference between the two parties.

I disagree - this attitude of mine is not why Trump won. Believe me, I voted for HRC and rallied as many people as I could to vote for her. I agree that there's a massive difference between the two parties and that's why I've voted dem recently.

From my perspective, the DNC/HRC failed at many turns, and Trump capitalized on the Republican Noise Machine that's been in development for 3+ decades, not to mention pivotal help from Cambridge Analytica in the final months that pushed his numbers up in targeted states like Wisconsin and PA. The DNC lost, not because people like me recognize that private funding of elections is bad, but because of tone-deaf mistakes in their campaign, and they lost because the GOP machine is organized and efficient.

The saying that dems need to fall in love with their candidate, while GOPs fall in line behind any yahoo who bubbles up for the nomination is truer now than ever. And THAT's what the DNC is working against. And they're failing. And part of the problem is that they are trying to appease both their big $ donors and their progressive base. If there were no big $ donors, they'd be progressive. Instead, they've been pulled right (for many reasons that could be a whole other topic thread) and have split their constituents. HRC was a terrible candidate to put forward. I personally have nothing against her. But I'm all too aware of the anti HRC campaign that's played out numerous times in my parents home and in all their friends homes and among the regular GOP base for decades. But, incredibly, GOP-sters like my sister and her boyfriend would have voted for Bernie Sanders. But not HRC.

I'm agreeing that the DNC is way better than the GOP from a policy and human perspective. And your experience working with democrats sounds about what I'd imagine it to be. In fact they are so disorganized that only 12% of registered voters in LA county voted in the latest special election. 12. And they were voting for city council members, mayors, etc.  I would think that post-Trump, any and every registered democrat would vow to vote in every election. Nope. From my FB feed - where my college crew mostly lives in LA - people didn't even know there was an election. Shame on the DNC for not getting that message out. Don't they know about ALEC and Grover Norquist and the incredible coordinating activities of the GOP? The GOP holds 32 state legislatures. They need just ONE more and they can pass whatever constitutional amendments they want. I'm terrified of that. The only thing I REALLY care about is global warming / pollution. They could pass an amendment saying that he government is not allowed to regulate emissions from any business activity. Seriously.

I'm an 'unaffiliated' voter now, but it seems to me that the DNC attracts people who believe in science informed policy making. They want competent governance. And they want government to step in and help people with difficult problems. So, I de-registered as a republican last year, and spent 50 euros making sure my primary ballot arrived on time to get Bernie Sanders elected. Then I spent another 50 euros making sure my Nov ballot arrived on time to vote for HRC.

HRC failed to campaign in regions where Rush Limbaugh has been playing for decades. She said something like lots of coal jobs were going to be lost and gave the haters more fuel to burn her with. She was an awful candidate, even if the most qualified person to run for office last year.

My point is that all of this bullshit is the result of our privately funded two party system. Recognizing the systemic problem didn't put Trump in power. Brainwashed GOP cult members voted for him, and democrats who weren't in love with HRC and were bummed their guy got the shaft stayed home. Simple as that. This was the DNC's election to lose and it's all on them.  So they're disorganized. They'd better get organized. I'm doing all I can. I send info to friends in Kansas, Virginia, Ohio and West Virginia nudging them to vote when it's time. I write articles. And I try to point out the big picture once in a while. Which is that a privately funded two party system will lead us to ever worse governance.

Sorry, this turned into another rant. This is why I usually stop myself from posting. Once I start it's difficult to stop short.
There is a lot of truth in this.  But it ignores the elephant in the room: the concerted efforts by Russia to influence the election through the leaking of emails and the torrent of disinformation ("fake news") from Russian bots on Facebook and Twitter which drowned out the normal social media content and replaced it with Hilary hatespeech targeted at Republicans and Bernie supporters.

Hilary was not a "terrible" candidate.  She had her flaws, as do all candidates, but she was a better candidate than Trump.  The fact that even someone sympathetic can describe her as terrible without a thought just indicates how all-pervasive the Russian disinformation campaign became.

I mean, "lock her up"?  And "we couldn't possibly have a Presidential candidate who is under FBI investigation"?  Tell me now, who was really the terrible candidate?
Be frugal and industrious, and you will be free (Ben Franklin)

Malaysia41

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2841
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Half Way Around The World
    • My mmm journal
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2830 on: March 23, 2017, 01:38:42 PM »

There is a lot of truth in this.  But it ignores the elephant in the room: the concerted efforts by Russia to influence the election through the leaking of emails and the torrent of disinformation ("fake news") from Russian bots on Facebook and Twitter which drowned out the normal social media content and replaced it with Hilary hatespeech targeted at Republicans and Bernie supporters.

Hilary was not a "terrible" candidate.  She had her flaws, as do all candidates, but she was a better candidate than Trump.  The fact that even someone sympathetic can describe her as terrible without a thought just indicates how all-pervasive the Russian disinformation campaign became.

I mean, "lock her up"?  And "we couldn't possibly have a Presidential candidate who is under FBI investigation"?  Tell me now, who was really the terrible candidate?

I would have mentioned Russia too, but my post was already getting very long. Also I'm kind of waiting to see what comes from the investigations. I agree - it's clear that Russian trolls (Internet Research Agency types) were all over reddit, for example, pushing anti-HRC stuff and pro Trump BS. My sense is that Russian involvement went way beyond just chatting with /paying off Manafort and others. Hopefully the investigations to come will clarify just what went down in those deals. The Rosnef sale looks bad, along with much else. Adam Schiff summed it up well in his testimony.

I'm saying she was strategically a "terrible" candidate - not because I bought into the propaganda against her, but because I personally knew so many who had. Sure, I didn't like some of her work as Sec of State, but I think she would have been a fine president. Obviously she was a better candidate than Trump. Hell, she was a better candidate than all of the ~17 GOP candidates. I would have voted for her over all of them.

When I wrote "terrible" I meant she was "possibly unelectable."  And you don't run a possibly-unelectable candidate against a monster like Trump. I mean, early on, they actually tried to push for Trump as their pied piper candidate. Gah.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with that last paragraph.
Last one to panic wins!

My Rohingya Refugee Charity (now Tax Exempt!)

I'm an enemy of POTUS, VPOTUS, and the privately funded political system that inflicted them upon us.

Just Joe

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 839
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2831 on: March 23, 2017, 03:23:21 PM »
If this Russian debacle took down Trump, could it take down Pence as well for knowing about Trump and associates' interactions with the Russians?

Lagom

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1242
  • Age: 34
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2832 on: March 23, 2017, 04:31:09 PM »
If this Russian debacle took down Trump, could it take down Pence as well for knowing about Trump and associates' interactions with the Russians?

Then we get President Paul Ryan. From a policy standpoint he's probably the one most likely to push through many of the terrible ideas that have received so much push-back because the "ultimate closer" in chief actually sucks donkey balls at closing deals and spinning things in a way that will appeal to anyone but his diehards. Trumpcare might as well be called Ryancare, after all, but Ryan would have a much easier time lining up his ducks in the RNC and most likely be hailed as a breath of fresh air, returning the presidency to some semblance of "dignity" and "normalcy."

He also would probably orchestrate a better PR campaign to brainwash everyone into thinking Ryancare is in fact the magical ACA solution we've so desperately "needed" all this time, no matter how many people lose their insurance/see further spiraling premiums. He might even be able to salvage the midterms with a little luck and cranking the spin up to 11. I suppose at least he would (hopefully) stop this wall nonsense and (maybe?) the absurd attempts to ban Muslims from the U.S.

former player

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2543
  • Location: Avalon
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2833 on: March 23, 2017, 04:32:47 PM »
Who comes after Ryan?
Be frugal and industrious, and you will be free (Ben Franklin)

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5422
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2834 on: March 23, 2017, 04:35:35 PM »
Who comes after Ryan?

Orrin Hatch, but really it's turtles all the way down.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 522
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2835 on: March 23, 2017, 06:22:40 PM »
Hilary was not a "terrible" candidate.  She had her flaws, as do all candidates, but she was a better candidate than Trump.  The fact that even someone sympathetic can describe her as terrible without a thought just indicates how all-pervasive the Russian disinformation campaign became.
I disagree, Hilary was a terrible candidate. It wasn't so much her non-scandal scandals (pay to play, that fucking email server...) but her inability to cohere any sort of grand narrative that sufficiently motivated her base and more marginal swing voters. It was clear when a park bench socialist like Sanders--America's answer to the UK's Jeremy Corbyn (who is seemingly determined to make Labour a permanent opposition party)--that she was far from a potent candidate. But to Sanders' credit, at least he had a narrative that could positively motivate his supporters in such a way that, had he won, we might not be facing a blaze-orange Trumpster fire these days.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2017, 07:01:39 PM by lost_in_the_endless_aisle »

RangerOne

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 590
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2836 on: March 23, 2017, 06:59:20 PM »
Yeah, the fact that they're violating the policy doesn't make it a bad policy.

Are you saying that you like it when trump lies?

This is just another case of "insurance for everybody" where trump says something he thinks will be popular, then turns around and does the exact opposite.  "Drain the swamp" turned out to mean "staff my cabinet with billionaires and hire foreign agents to run national security" and "insurance for everybody" turned out to mean "24 million fewer people will have insurance" and "Mexico will pay for it" turned out to mean "American taxpayers will pay for it".  Shall I go on?

Trump is a con man.  He will say anything to get his way and enrich himself and his family.  We shouldn't be celebrating his lies just because they sound good, when we know damned well be doesn't mean a word of it.  He is not in control of his own administration, so the things he says are meaningless.

Next you'll be telling is how great it is that Hillary is finally in jail for all of those non-existent crimes.  What a great policy!

We need an anti-Trump who will say exactly this, in exactly this tone. Has to be a business man, success optional. Too bad Ross Perot is too old. Mark Cuban? Framing this bullshit as bullshit needs to happen. By someone of stature. Is there anyone not compromised that can stand and rebuke this administration-with authority?

We have plenty of them but the Republican base has tuned it all out. Trump has what, 80%+ support with registered Republicans. Maybe 50/50 with independents.

Its going to be up to our elected officials to take a stand against the bullshit. The public simply don't have the time, energy or ability to make fair informed decisions about all of the Trump administrations possible missteps. On top of that it is a conflict of interest for his base to turn against him over allegations of corruption or deceit. Because many still hope to gain from his Presidency, in the form of jobs, reducing immigration and cutting government programs.
I can't find that anywhere, do you which poll that came from?

Gallup polls show some of Trumps lowest approval ratings overall. But look at their data along party lines near the bottom:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/203198/presidential-approval-ratings-donald-trump.aspx

Republicans are close to 90% approval. This is to some degree to be expected. Part of his overall low rating is that he is extremely polarizing.

RangerOne

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 590
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2837 on: March 23, 2017, 07:06:24 PM »
If the evidence became strong enough against Trump and his aids in the investigation to where he was advised he could be impeached and then criminally prosecuted following a successful impeachment, one would assume he would bow out like Nixon and take a presidential pardon.

However Trump is not Nixon and all evidence points to the fact that if their is a shit storm he wants to be they eye in the center flinging poo at his enemies.

So I don't think he is untouchable but I don't think he will go quietly if he thinks he has popular public support on his side.

wenchsenior

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1207
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2838 on: March 23, 2017, 07:39:41 PM »
Yeah, the fact that they're violating the policy doesn't make it a bad policy.

Are you saying that you like it when trump lies?

This is just another case of "insurance for everybody" where trump says something he thinks will be popular, then turns around and does the exact opposite.  "Drain the swamp" turned out to mean "staff my cabinet with billionaires and hire foreign agents to run national security" and "insurance for everybody" turned out to mean "24 million fewer people will have insurance" and "Mexico will pay for it" turned out to mean "American taxpayers will pay for it".  Shall I go on?

Trump is a con man.  He will say anything to get his way and enrich himself and his family.  We shouldn't be celebrating his lies just because they sound good, when we know damned well be doesn't mean a word of it.  He is not in control of his own administration, so the things he says are meaningless.

Next you'll be telling is how great it is that Hillary is finally in jail for all of those non-existent crimes.  What a great policy!

We need an anti-Trump who will say exactly this, in exactly this tone. Has to be a business man, success optional. Too bad Ross Perot is too old. Mark Cuban? Framing this bullshit as bullshit needs to happen. By someone of stature. Is there anyone not compromised that can stand and rebuke this administration-with authority?

We have plenty of them but the Republican base has tuned it all out. Trump has what, 80%+ support with registered Republicans. Maybe 50/50 with independents.

Its going to be up to our elected officials to take a stand against the bullshit. The public simply don't have the time, energy or ability to make fair informed decisions about all of the Trump administrations possible missteps. On top of that it is a conflict of interest for his base to turn against him over allegations of corruption or deceit. Because many still hope to gain from his Presidency, in the form of jobs, reducing immigration and cutting government programs.
I can't find that anywhere, do you which poll that came from?

Gallup polls show some of Trumps lowest approval ratings overall. But look at their data along party lines near the bottom:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/203198/presidential-approval-ratings-donald-trump.aspx

Republicans are close to 90% approval. This is to some degree to be expected. Part of his overall low rating is that he is extremely polarizing.

Yup.  A fairly reliable long term pollster in WI just showed his support among GOP voters/likely voters has increased since the election.

This kind of split in polling has the potential to force GOP senators away from Trump and GOP House members closer to Trump. Should be entertaining to watch, in a car-crash kind of way.

former player

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2543
  • Location: Avalon
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2839 on: March 24, 2017, 02:44:53 AM »

There is a lot of truth in this.  But it ignores the elephant in the room: the concerted efforts by Russia to influence the election through the leaking of emails and the torrent of disinformation ("fake news") from Russian bots on Facebook and Twitter which drowned out the normal social media content and replaced it with Hilary hatespeech targeted at Republicans and Bernie supporters.

Hilary was not a "terrible" candidate.  She had her flaws, as do all candidates, but she was a better candidate than Trump.  The fact that even someone sympathetic can describe her as terrible without a thought just indicates how all-pervasive the Russian disinformation campaign became.

I mean, "lock her up"?  And "we couldn't possibly have a Presidential candidate who is under FBI investigation"?  Tell me now, who was really the terrible candidate?

I would have mentioned Russia too, but my post was already getting very long. Also I'm kind of waiting to see what comes from the investigations. I agree - it's clear that Russian trolls (Internet Research Agency types) were all over reddit, for example, pushing anti-HRC stuff and pro Trump BS. My sense is that Russian involvement went way beyond just chatting with /paying off Manafort and others. Hopefully the investigations to come will clarify just what went down in those deals. The Rosnef sale looks bad, along with much else. Adam Schiff summed it up well in his testimony.

I'm saying she was strategically a "terrible" candidate - not because I bought into the propaganda against her, but because I personally knew so many who had. Sure, I didn't like some of her work as Sec of State, but I think she would have been a fine president. Obviously she was a better candidate than Trump. Hell, she was a better candidate than all of the ~17 GOP candidates. I would have voted for her over all of them.

When I wrote "terrible" I meant she was "possibly unelectable."  And you don't run a possibly-unelectable candidate against a monster like Trump. I mean, early on, they actually tried to push for Trump as their pied piper candidate. Gah.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with that last paragraph.
The last paragraph was things said about Hillary during the campaign which are considerably more true of Trump in office than they ever were of Hillary as a candidate.

Hillary was not "possibly unelectable" until the Russians got after her with their insidious propaganda.  They are a lot smarter about their propaganda than they used to be - a lot of it is subtle and clever as well as some of it being obvious and crude.

I think Hillary's problem was that she tried to power through the campaign on her own terms without realising (how could she) just how significant the Russian propaganda campaign against her would be.  That meant that she took the high moral ground against Trump, rather than getting down in the muck with him.  I'm not sure whether any other approach would have done better, and until Comey fell for the Russian dirty tricks over the Weiner emails two weeks before election date it was working well enough.

Edited to add: it didn't help the Hillary was a woman and that apparently sexism is even more deeply ingrained in the USA than in most developed societies.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 02:47:07 AM by former player »
Be frugal and industrious, and you will be free (Ben Franklin)

Nick_Miller

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 381
  • Age: 43
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2840 on: March 24, 2017, 06:09:06 PM »
I just skimmed a few responses but I really just needed a place to post my thoughts.

I don't even know what to think anymore. He's been in office, what, 60 days or so and I can't keep track of the blunders, potential ethical violations, and short-sighted policy decisions. I pride myself on being a reasonable, thoughtful person, and I don't engage in hyperbole or troll folks on social media or call people names, but...this is f*cking crazy.

It's like (many) Republicans are willing to totally ignore the Russia issues because....well I guess because they don't like the "liberal media?" I mean, I honestly don't understand. What sort of thoughtful person says, "Nah I don't care about knowing more about all the Russia connections. Whatever they are all saying now can't possibly be true." You have the intelligence community getting involved front and center now. I mean, what, is EVERYONE lying BUT Trump?? He's the sole honest person? Seriously?

The whole "no evidence that feeding kids helps kids perform better" thing? WTF? I taught in public schools (for a short time) and I have many family members who work in schools. Kids come to school HUNGRY! They do!  How about you go to work hungry every day and see how well you perform??

And I'll close with this. I have voted for Republican presidents before, as recently as 2008 (yes I voted for McCain). I'm not some extreme person. But this administration has collected the absolutely WORST people  they could gather. EPA, Education, State, I could go on and onu. It's gotten to the point where I don't think I could even be a friend to someone who says, "Oh yeah this is all great! MAGA!!" I mean, we would have no shared values. What's the point?

Try being in my shoes - where you've described my dad, mom, MIL, BIL, SIL, other BIL and somewhat my brother. Every day I read the news. And no - I don't get outraged at the outrage pieces - I get outraged watching congressional hearings on CSPAN and outraged watching POTUS live tweet incoherent bullshit. I don't need pundits to spin me into anger. Reality is sufficient.

When I check in with the GOP members of my family, they've nothing but total approval for this administration. Why? Cuz liberals would bring bureaucracy and that's the ultimate evil. As if we're living in the 70s.

The GOP cult members in my family are unwilling to acknowledge how effective the GOP has been at cowing government agencies into streamlined efficiency. From SS admin to IRS, modern day agencies do a pretty good job. It's not the 1970s anymore. But that's what their news feeds tell them so it must be so and I'm naive for believing scientists and peer reviewed studies.

It's a daily struggle to keep from outright hating my family. Their support of this anit-science, anti-constitution, anti-democratic bullshit could be sowing the seeds of our country's - and perhaps our species - destruction.

Like you, Nick_Miller, I pride myself on being a rational, somewhat dispassionate thinker.  And yet look at what I just wrote in the paragraph above. If you'd shown that to me a year ago I wouldn't believe I wrote that. But it's what I've come to accept.

And I blame it all on the privately funded two party system and the rise of corporate personhood. The GOP is a cult,  but the DNC ain't so great either. Combine their skewed incentives with today's surgical propaganda tools and  the defunding of public education,  and I feel like representative liberal democracy is fucked. Hello authoritarian kleptocracy.

I usually stop myself saying this stuff because I sound like a crackpot. But when my dad emails me saying civil asset forfeiture is totally cool and that trumps doing a fine job and that he's optimistic this congress is going to get some great things done ... well I think I'm seeing things quite clearly.

edit: typos.

I hope it helps (a little) to know there are others like you out there in similar situations. Misery and company, and all that jazz. I do have a sane brother, so I guess I can brag about that a little.

dividendman

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 997
  • Age: 35
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2841 on: March 24, 2017, 06:46:39 PM »
Here's an impact: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/03/24/deportation-drama-enters-pro-trump-household-in-northern-indiana.html

TL;DR - pro Trump woman is upset because her undocumented (illegal) immigrant husband is getting deported. She says Trump said the "good people" would not be deported.

Another gem quote from this wife of an illegal:

Quote
"We were very happy he became the president. Whatever he says, he is right.

Man, I should read Fox News more often for gems like this.

wenchsenior

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1207
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2842 on: March 24, 2017, 06:53:55 PM »
Here's an impact: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/03/24/deportation-drama-enters-pro-trump-household-in-northern-indiana.html

TL;DR - pro Trump woman is upset because her undocumented (illegal) immigrant husband is getting deported. She says Trump said the "good people" would not be deported.

Another gem quote from this wife of an illegal:

Quote
"We were very happy he became the president. Whatever he says, he is right.

Man, I should read Fox News more often for gems like this.

Every once in a while I am reminded: There is just no cure for stupid.

teen persuasion

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 944
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2843 on: March 24, 2017, 09:26:02 PM »
Here's an impact: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/03/24/deportation-drama-enters-pro-trump-household-in-northern-indiana.html

TL;DR - pro Trump woman is upset because her undocumented (illegal) immigrant husband is getting deported. She says Trump said the "good people" would not be deported.

Another gem quote from this wife of an illegal:

Quote
"We were very happy he became the president. Whatever he says, he is right.

Man, I should read Fox News more often for gems like this.

Quote
during a family trip to Niagara Falls, he inadvertently crossed the border into Canada.   

How do you inadvertently cross the border at NF?  You'd have to cross one of the three bridges on the Niagara river.  There are giant signs everywhere, and you go thru customs.  You don't just wander over the border there.

DoubleDown

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1974
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2844 on: March 25, 2017, 09:23:29 AM »
You don't just wander over the border there.



Sorry, couldn't resist!

ETA: Just wanted to add I know how to spell; our buddy Boromir famously says in the movie, "One does not simply walk into Mordor." Get it? Mordor? Bor-dor? And if you have to explain a joke, it usually means it really sucks...
« Last Edit: March 25, 2017, 09:26:53 AM by DoubleDown »
"Not all quotes on the internet are accurate" -- Abraham Lincoln

Abe

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 796
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2845 on: March 25, 2017, 04:08:55 PM »
Quote from: teen persuasion link=topic=64129.msg1488943#msg1488943
How do you inadvertently cross the border at NF?  You'd have to cross one of the three bridges on the Niagara river.  There are giant signs everywhere, and you go thru customs.  You don't just wander over the border there.

Barrel. Over falls.

rosaz

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 173
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2846 on: March 27, 2017, 11:04:39 AM »
Quote from: teen persuasion link=topic=64129.msg1488943#msg1488943
How do you inadvertently cross the border at NF?  You'd have to cross one of the three bridges on the Niagara river.  There are giant signs everywhere, and you go thru customs.  You don't just wander over the border there.

Barrel. Over falls.

I hate it when I do that.

scottish

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 873
  • Location: Ottawa
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2847 on: March 29, 2017, 03:30:59 PM »
The New York times has observed that many of Trump's policies are actually not making America great again but are in effect making America less significant.

The push back to fossil fuels and away from green energy sources will tend to push the US away from leading edge energy technologies and back to the days of coal dust and smog.

Abandoning the TPP puts China in a position where they can continue as the dominant economic player in the south Pacific.

Rescinding internet privacy regulations will tend to drive Americans away from the Internet and reduce innovation in this space.

We're already starting to see targeted ethnic groups avoiding the US.   The people who would have come to the states are the most amibitious, least complacent people in their native countries.    Even Canadian schools are cancelling US field trips.

Repealing the ACA would have reduced health care to almost 10% of the American population.

Making friends with Vladimir Putin will give Russia more influence and power in former soviet bloc countries.

Anyone have more examples?   

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/29/opinion/trump-is-a-chinese-agent.html?_r=0

NoStacheOhio

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1574
  • Location: Cleveland
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2848 on: March 29, 2017, 03:51:49 PM »


Making friends with Vladimir Putin will give Russia more influence and power in former soviet bloc countries.


He's not even making Russia great again!

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/this-whole-donald-trump-thing-isnt-working-out-for-russ-1793688035
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/digging-out-of-a-hole/

DavidAnnArbor

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1259
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2849 on: March 31, 2017, 08:39:04 AM »
fewer American jobs moved out of the country are bad things?

"So much winning you'll get sick of winning. Seriously, trade policy by Tweet was never going to work."   Krugman

American Jobs Are Headed to Mexico Once Again  March 31st article:
https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-03-31/jobs-departing-u-s-for-mexico-again-as-trump-s-threats-ignored