Author Topic: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?  (Read 497981 times)

MasterStache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2750 on: March 21, 2017, 08:41:24 AM »
That was the point; to say that NOTHING positive has come out of his first two months in office is untrue, ... fewer American jobs moved out of the country are bad things?

This is not accurate. For one thing manufacturing jobs are in decline mainly due to automation in factories. CEO's of companies like Ford announce jobs created at American factories and Trump makes claims that he persuaded these companies to do this, rather than move the factories to Mexico or China. These companies were planning these factory jobs months ago and have nothing to do with Trump.

Moreover, the decline in international travelers to the United States is taking away jobs that cater to tourism. Why the decline in travel here?  Largely it is the result of Trump's travel bans that create a negative impression of the US as being a difficult and unwelcoming place to come to.

Can't really contribute job retention to Trump either. Could very well be an extension from Obama era policies.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ZovaDsUEAQDHtWxShrLtQhSAv2A3rz2OawoCfgzVi6AkR--ePqTxwvm6DoNKtVLZ9nYKSDFtidw3_j_s4bCekOgsNdRsi51j0Isl8n6Z0x_6jKi3LYGKmt8TCz4NU-vZNmILWFKx

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2751 on: March 21, 2017, 10:16:28 AM »
That was the point; to say that NOTHING positive has come out of his first two months in office is untrue, ... fewer American jobs moved out of the country are bad things?

This is not accurate. For one thing manufacturing jobs are in decline mainly due to automation in factories. CEO's of companies like Ford announce jobs created at American factories and Trump makes claims that he persuaded these companies to do this, rather than move the factories to Mexico or China. These companies were planning these factory jobs months ago and have nothing to do with Trump.
This is an inaccurate assessment of the situation, according to Ford. Yes they moved some jobs. Some jobs were to stay - the clearly have reported that they saved an extra several hundred jobs by moving a plant within the borders of the USA that would have been moved to Mexico.

Quote
Moreover, the decline in international travelers to the United States is taking away jobs that cater to tourism. Why the decline in travel here?  Largely it is the result of Trump's travel bans that create a negative impression of the US as being a difficult and unwelcoming place to come to.
Are you purposefully conflating illegal border crossing numbers with international tourist travel, or did you not see the above link on the CPB report and are confused? Or are you bringing up an unrelated issue?

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2752 on: March 21, 2017, 10:20:38 AM »
Can't really contribute job retention to Trump either. Could very well be an extension from Obama era policies.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ZovaDsUEAQDHtWxShrLtQhSAv2A3rz2OawoCfgzVi6AkR--ePqTxwvm6DoNKtVLZ9nYKSDFtidw3_j_s4bCekOgsNdRsi51j0Isl8n6Z0x_6jKi3LYGKmt8TCz4NU-vZNmILWFKx

O, that one was a softball. :D Last month's higher than expected job numbers are very likely neither Obama nor Trump; it's much more likely unseasonably warm weather allowing seasonal industries to staff up sooner, a resurgence of oilfield drilling in parts of the country, and several other factors.

JLee

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2753 on: March 21, 2017, 10:28:30 AM »
That was the point; to say that NOTHING positive has come out of his first two months in office is untrue, ... fewer American jobs moved out of the country are bad things?

This is not accurate. For one thing manufacturing jobs are in decline mainly due to automation in factories. CEO's of companies like Ford announce jobs created at American factories and Trump makes claims that he persuaded these companies to do this, rather than move the factories to Mexico or China. These companies were planning these factory jobs months ago and have nothing to do with Trump.
This is an inaccurate assessment of the situation, according to Ford. Yes they moved some jobs. Some jobs were to stay - the clearly have reported that they saved an extra several hundred jobs by moving a plant within the borders of the USA that would have been moved to Mexico.

Quote
Moreover, the decline in international travelers to the United States is taking away jobs that cater to tourism. Why the decline in travel here?  Largely it is the result of Trump's travel bans that create a negative impression of the US as being a difficult and unwelcoming place to come to.
Are you purposefully conflating illegal border crossing numbers with international tourist travel, or did you not see the above link on the CPB report and are confused? Or are you bringing up an unrelated issue?

It's absolutely related.  Are you oblivious to what's going on?

https://www.bostonglobe.com/lifestyle/travel/2017/02/14/trump-ban-causes-tourism-drop-and-industry-fears-lasting-effect/yzMAVzeLvqywP8gEekoFsL/story.html

rocketpj

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2754 on: March 21, 2017, 10:52:05 AM »
Realistic impacts (speaking from the outside here as a Canadian who has many friends in the US, including some Cdns with Green cards etc).

1.  I have friends who are currently living and working in the US legally (green cards) who are now actively looking at options to leave.  Not because Canadians (or Germans, in one case) are being targeted, but because an unpredictable and volatile executive can and has been making re-entry a non-certainty.  If you might lose access to your home and work every time you visited your family, you would likely look for other options before the worst happens.  (These people include a few software types and one recent Oscar/Annie winner).

2.  Globally Trump is seen, fairly, as a dangerous and unpredictable lunatic with control of the most effective military in the world.  Everyone is waiting for the him to start a war.  Given the history of egotistical authoritarian 'only I can fix things types' around the world, we can expect a war of some kind immediately following the next economic downturn.  The only question is whether it is a smallish Iraq or Vietnam level debacle, or some kind of suicidal global conflict.  Either way everyone loses but Trump (until he gets hung from a lamppost).

3.  Even if those things don't happen, once you have a leader who can 'get away with' flagrant criminality, you will get more.  If the leadership is immune - already a problem in most countries - then it will become even more of an attractor for criminals. 

sol

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2755 on: March 21, 2017, 11:01:23 AM »
Today's prediction:  Ivanka 2028.  Maybe 2032.

golden1

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2756 on: March 21, 2017, 01:16:27 PM »
I have said for awhile that Ivanka Trump will be the first female president. 

And yeah, the brain drain from the Trump presidency is likely to be the longest lasting effect.  I know foreign students now who were planning on staying here and are going to return to their native countries.  Even for people not specifically targeted, America just has a less welcoming spirit than it used to.  Shame. 
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 01:23:17 PM by golden1 »

Glenstache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2757 on: March 21, 2017, 01:38:43 PM »
I guess one impact of the Trump presidency will be that at least some people will remember that elections and whom you vote for actually matters.

Kris

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2758 on: March 21, 2017, 01:54:59 PM »
I guess one impact of the Trump presidency will be that at least some people will remember that elections and whom you vote for actually matters.

You would think so. Then again, I thought that would happen with George W. Bush. Alas, as H.L. Mencken said, “No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.”

Lagom

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2759 on: March 21, 2017, 02:10:56 PM »
1+% drop in the markets today. By the logic of some this is clearly Trump's fault, amirite? Good thing he'll do something or other and the market will eventually go back up again tomorrow, or the day after, or years from now. Thanks Trump!

dividendman

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2760 on: March 21, 2017, 04:20:43 PM »
If we're looking for positives that Trump has actually set via policy I think one is the lobbying ban he forced many of his staff to sign (5 years for domestic lobbying after leaving the administration and lifetime ban from lobbying for foreign governments).

Now whether any of that is enforceable is a different question...

sol

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2761 on: March 21, 2017, 04:28:25 PM »
If we're looking for positives that Trump has actually set via policy I think one is the lobbying ban he forced many of his staff to sign (5 years for domestic lobbying after leaving the administration and lifetime ban from lobbying for foreign governments).

Now whether any of that is enforceable is a different question...

Former trump advisors are ALREADY lobbying for foreign governments.  Don't make me laugh.

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2762 on: March 21, 2017, 04:51:50 PM »
If we're looking for positives that Trump has actually set via policy I think one is the lobbying ban he forced many of his staff to sign (5 years for domestic lobbying after leaving the administration and lifetime ban from lobbying for foreign governments).

Now whether any of that is enforceable is a different question...

Jared Kushner, Trump's son-in-law, is in negotiations with a Chinese company for a $400 million dollar stock in his real estate concern.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/14/nyregion/kushner-companies-anbang-insurance-group.html

dividendman

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2763 on: March 21, 2017, 07:09:31 PM »
If we're looking for positives that Trump has actually set via policy I think one is the lobbying ban he forced many of his staff to sign (5 years for domestic lobbying after leaving the administration and lifetime ban from lobbying for foreign governments).

Now whether any of that is enforceable is a different question...

Former trump advisors are ALREADY lobbying for foreign governments.  Don't make me laugh.

Yeah, the fact that they're violating the policy doesn't make it a bad policy.

sol

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2764 on: March 22, 2017, 10:58:15 AM »
Yeah, the fact that they're violating the policy doesn't make it a bad policy.

Are you saying that you like it when trump lies?

This is just another case of "insurance for everybody" where trump says something he thinks will be popular, then turns around and does the exact opposite.  "Drain the swamp" turned out to mean "staff my cabinet with billionaires and hire foreign agents to run national security" and "insurance for everybody" turned out to mean "24 million fewer people will have insurance" and "Mexico will pay for it" turned out to mean "American taxpayers will pay for it".  Shall I go on?

Trump is a con man.  He will say anything to get his way and enrich himself and his family.  We shouldn't be celebrating his lies just because they sound good, when we know damned well be doesn't mean a word of it.  He is not in control of his own administration, so the things he says are meaningless.

Next you'll be telling is how great it is that Hillary is finally in jail for all of those non-existent crimes.  What a great policy!

Nick_Miller

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2765 on: March 22, 2017, 11:46:51 AM »
I just skimmed a few responses but I really just needed a place to post my thoughts.

I don't even know what to think anymore. He's been in office, what, 60 days or so and I can't keep track of the blunders, potential ethical violations, and short-sighted policy decisions. I pride myself on being a reasonable, thoughtful person, and I don't engage in hyperbole or troll folks on social media or call people names, but...this is f*cking crazy.

It's like (many) Republicans are willing to totally ignore the Russia issues because....well I guess because they don't like the "liberal media?" I mean, I honestly don't understand. What sort of thoughtful person says, "Nah I don't care about knowing more about all the Russia connections. Whatever they are all saying now can't possibly be true." You have the intelligence community getting involved front and center now. I mean, what, is EVERYONE lying BUT Trump?? He's the sole honest person? Seriously?

The whole "no evidence that feeding kids helps kids perform better" thing? WTF? I taught in public schools (for a short time) and I have many family members who work in schools. Kids come to school HUNGRY! They do!  How about you go to work hungry every day and see how well you perform??

And I'll close with this. I have voted for Republican presidents before, as recently as 2008 (yes I voted for McCain). I'm not some extreme person. But this administration has collected the absolutely WORST people  they could gather. EPA, Education, State, I could go on and on. It's gotten to the point where I don't think I could even be a friend to someone who says, "Oh yeah this is all great! MAGA!!" I mean, we would have no shared values. What's the point?

« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 11:48:29 AM by Nick_Miller »

Johnez

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2766 on: March 22, 2017, 12:48:40 PM »
Yeah, the fact that they're violating the policy doesn't make it a bad policy.

Are you saying that you like it when trump lies?

This is just another case of "insurance for everybody" where trump says something he thinks will be popular, then turns around and does the exact opposite.  "Drain the swamp" turned out to mean "staff my cabinet with billionaires and hire foreign agents to run national security" and "insurance for everybody" turned out to mean "24 million fewer people will have insurance" and "Mexico will pay for it" turned out to mean "American taxpayers will pay for it".  Shall I go on?

Trump is a con man.  He will say anything to get his way and enrich himself and his family.  We shouldn't be celebrating his lies just because they sound good, when we know damned well be doesn't mean a word of it.  He is not in control of his own administration, so the things he says are meaningless.

Next you'll be telling is how great it is that Hillary is finally in jail for all of those non-existent crimes.  What a great policy!

We need an anti-Trump who will say exactly this, in exactly this tone. Has to be a business man, success optional. Too bad Ross Perot is too old. Mark Cuban? Framing this bullshit as bullshit needs to happen. By someone of stature. Is there anyone not compromised that can stand and rebuke this administration-with authority?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 12:51:00 PM by Johnez »

RangerOne

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2767 on: March 22, 2017, 12:57:42 PM »
If we're looking for positives that Trump has actually set via policy I think one is the lobbying ban he forced many of his staff to sign (5 years for domestic lobbying after leaving the administration and lifetime ban from lobbying for foreign governments).

Now whether any of that is enforceable is a different question...

Former trump advisors are ALREADY lobbying for foreign governments.  Don't make me laugh.

Yeah, the fact that they're violating the policy doesn't make it a bad policy.

Depending on how you think about it yeah it kind of does make it a bad policy. If you write a bunch of laws you can't enforce you are adding time, money and complication to a problem without helping at all. That would be part of the main conservative argument against over regulation.

The only reason to keep a broadly unenforceable policy on the books is to give you legal standing if you ever decide to selectively go after people in violation of that policy. That ends up becoming more a of a political tool then if it can't be enforced fairly across the board and that could be a very bad thing.

RangerOne

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2768 on: March 22, 2017, 01:02:58 PM »
Yeah, the fact that they're violating the policy doesn't make it a bad policy.

Are you saying that you like it when trump lies?

This is just another case of "insurance for everybody" where trump says something he thinks will be popular, then turns around and does the exact opposite.  "Drain the swamp" turned out to mean "staff my cabinet with billionaires and hire foreign agents to run national security" and "insurance for everybody" turned out to mean "24 million fewer people will have insurance" and "Mexico will pay for it" turned out to mean "American taxpayers will pay for it".  Shall I go on?

Trump is a con man.  He will say anything to get his way and enrich himself and his family.  We shouldn't be celebrating his lies just because they sound good, when we know damned well be doesn't mean a word of it.  He is not in control of his own administration, so the things he says are meaningless.

Next you'll be telling is how great it is that Hillary is finally in jail for all of those non-existent crimes.  What a great policy!

We need an anti-Trump who will say exactly this, in exactly this tone. Has to be a business man, success optional. Too bad Ross Perot is too old. Mark Cuban? Framing this bullshit as bullshit needs to happen. By someone of stature. Is there anyone not compromised that can stand and rebuke this administration-with authority?

We have plenty of them but the Republican base has tuned it all out. Trump has what, 80%+ support with registered Republicans. Maybe 50/50 with independents.

Its going to be up to our elected officials to take a stand against the bullshit. The public simply don't have the time, energy or ability to make fair informed decisions about all of the Trump administrations possible missteps. On top of that it is a conflict of interest for his base to turn against him over allegations of corruption or deceit. Because many still hope to gain from his Presidency, in the form of jobs, reducing immigration and cutting government programs.

former player

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2769 on: March 22, 2017, 01:16:28 PM »
The public simply don't have the time, energy or ability to make fair informed decisions about all of the Trump administrations possible missteps. On top of that it is a conflict of interest for his base to turn against him over allegations of corruption or deceit. Because many still hope to gain from his Presidency, in the form of jobs, reducing immigration and cutting government programs.
Also, no-one likes to admit that they've been conned by Trump and fallen for Russian propaganda on social media.  There's a lot of inertia right there.

Gin1984

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2770 on: March 22, 2017, 01:42:58 PM »
Yeah, the fact that they're violating the policy doesn't make it a bad policy.

Are you saying that you like it when trump lies?

This is just another case of "insurance for everybody" where trump says something he thinks will be popular, then turns around and does the exact opposite.  "Drain the swamp" turned out to mean "staff my cabinet with billionaires and hire foreign agents to run national security" and "insurance for everybody" turned out to mean "24 million fewer people will have insurance" and "Mexico will pay for it" turned out to mean "American taxpayers will pay for it".  Shall I go on?

Trump is a con man.  He will say anything to get his way and enrich himself and his family.  We shouldn't be celebrating his lies just because they sound good, when we know damned well be doesn't mean a word of it.  He is not in control of his own administration, so the things he says are meaningless.

Next you'll be telling is how great it is that Hillary is finally in jail for all of those non-existent crimes.  What a great policy!

We need an anti-Trump who will say exactly this, in exactly this tone. Has to be a business man, success optional. Too bad Ross Perot is too old. Mark Cuban? Framing this bullshit as bullshit needs to happen. By someone of stature. Is there anyone not compromised that can stand and rebuke this administration-with authority?

We have plenty of them but the Republican base has tuned it all out. Trump has what, 80%+ support with registered Republicans. Maybe 50/50 with independents.

Its going to be up to our elected officials to take a stand against the bullshit. The public simply don't have the time, energy or ability to make fair informed decisions about all of the Trump administrations possible missteps. On top of that it is a conflict of interest for his base to turn against him over allegations of corruption or deceit. Because many still hope to gain from his Presidency, in the form of jobs, reducing immigration and cutting government programs.
I can't find that anywhere, do you which poll that came from?

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wenchsenior

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2772 on: March 22, 2017, 04:40:16 PM »
Yeah, the fact that they're violating the policy doesn't make it a bad policy.

Are you saying that you like it when trump lies?

This is just another case of "insurance for everybody" where trump says something he thinks will be popular, then turns around and does the exact opposite.  "Drain the swamp" turned out to mean "staff my cabinet with billionaires and hire foreign agents to run national security" and "insurance for everybody" turned out to mean "24 million fewer people will have insurance" and "Mexico will pay for it" turned out to mean "American taxpayers will pay for it".  Shall I go on?

Trump is a con man.  He will say anything to get his way and enrich himself and his family.  We shouldn't be celebrating his lies just because they sound good, when we know damned well be doesn't mean a word of it.  He is not in control of his own administration, so the things he says are meaningless.

Next you'll be telling is how great it is that Hillary is finally in jail for all of those non-existent crimes.  What a great policy!

We need an anti-Trump who will say exactly this, in exactly this tone. Has to be a business man, success optional. Too bad Ross Perot is too old. Mark Cuban? Framing this bullshit as bullshit needs to happen. By someone of stature. Is there anyone not compromised that can stand and rebuke this administration-with authority?

We have plenty of them but the Republican base has tuned it all out. Trump has what, 80%+ support with registered Republicans. Maybe 50/50 with independents.

Its going to be up to our elected officials to take a stand against the bullshit. The public simply don't have the time, energy or ability to make fair informed decisions about all of the Trump administrations possible missteps. On top of that it is a conflict of interest for his base to turn against him over allegations of corruption or deceit. Because many still hope to gain from his Presidency, in the form of jobs, reducing immigration and cutting government programs.
I can't find that anywhere, do you which poll that came from?

I'm not sure about this month, but last month Pew had their GOP/lean GOP approval for Trump at 84%.  This is why impeachment won't happen even if criminal activity were to be demonstrated. The GOP Congress would have to lead the effort, and as long as their voters support Trump in these kind of numbers, they won't make a move against him.

DoubleDown

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2773 on: March 22, 2017, 05:22:22 PM »
***IF*** the FBI charged Trump and/or his senior aides with colluding with the Russians to throw the election, or turned up sufficient evidence that it happened even though they decide not to prosecute, the Republicans in Congress would definitely move to impeach Trump. They'd be thrilled to have the cover for throwing his ass out and installing Pence as President. It's win/win for them: Look tough on Russia and treason, get the guy they'd actually prefer to have as president, and get rid of the ridiculous loud-mouth who is full of distractions to their agenda.

wenchsenior

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2774 on: March 22, 2017, 05:34:18 PM »
***IF*** the FBI charged Trump and/or his senior aides with colluding with the Russians to throw the election, or turned up sufficient evidence that it happened even though they decide not to prosecute, the Republicans in Congress would definitely move to impeach Trump. They'd be thrilled to have the cover for throwing his ass out and installing Pence as President. It's win/win for them: Look tough on Russia and treason, get the guy they'd actually prefer to have as president, and get rid of the ridiculous loud-mouth who is full of distractions to their agenda.

I agree it would be great for their agenda, but they would risk losing power in the following election if Trump's voters turned against them.  And Trump would do everything in his power to make sure his voters DID retaliate against the GOP in that instance.

dividendman

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2775 on: March 22, 2017, 06:33:51 PM »
Yeah, the fact that they're violating the policy doesn't make it a bad policy.

Are you saying that you like it when trump lies?

This is just another case of "insurance for everybody" where trump says something he thinks will be popular, then turns around and does the exact opposite.  "Drain the swamp" turned out to mean "staff my cabinet with billionaires and hire foreign agents to run national security" and "insurance for everybody" turned out to mean "24 million fewer people will have insurance" and "Mexico will pay for it" turned out to mean "American taxpayers will pay for it".  Shall I go on?

Trump is a con man.  He will say anything to get his way and enrich himself and his family.  We shouldn't be celebrating his lies just because they sound good, when we know damned well be doesn't mean a word of it.  He is not in control of his own administration, so the things he says are meaningless.

Next you'll be telling is how great it is that Hillary is finally in jail for all of those non-existent crimes.  What a great policy!

He obviously lies and he's obviously a con man. He is also a rapist/sexual assaulter and an overall bad piece of shit. All of that being said, he does say some things, lies though they may be, that I agree with. Infrastructure investments, corporate tax cuts and the policy of no lobbying. Maybe he never wants to do any of these things, that doesn't make the policies themselves bad.

Then you can say, so what if he says anything good if he's a piece of shit liar? Yeah, that's a good point. But my impression was he actually got everyone to sign those no lobbying pledges. Again, if there is no consequence then it's bullshit.

Finally, one clear positive impact of Trump is to other countries. The best and brightest of many other countries are leaving the States or not coming at all, China is going to set up a TPP like deal to increase their influence, and other countries are realizing they were using America as a crutch for too many of their exports (e.g Mexico and corn) and will look to other markets.

Kris

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2776 on: March 22, 2017, 07:19:42 PM »
***IF*** the FBI charged Trump and/or his senior aides with colluding with the Russians to throw the election, or turned up sufficient evidence that it happened even though they decide not to prosecute, the Republicans in Congress would definitely move to impeach Trump. They'd be thrilled to have the cover for throwing his ass out and installing Pence as President. It's win/win for them: Look tough on Russia and treason, get the guy they'd actually prefer to have as president, and get rid of the ridiculous loud-mouth who is full of distractions to their agenda.

I agree it would be great for their agenda, but they would risk losing power in the following election if Trump's voters turned against them.  And Trump would do everything in his power to make sure his voters DID retaliate against the GOP in that instance.
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This. Plus, the longer Trump is in office, the more of his outrageous behavior gets normalized. Meaning that subsequent Republicans will be able to get away with a sh*tload more. The next Republican administration will look a lot more like the Trump administration in terms of bending the rules, graft, and cronyism, though done less blatantly and more carefully. And people won't freak out nearly as much as they should, because by comparison to Trump it will look practically Boy Scout-like. Why would they want to stop Trump for layong the groundwork for them?

rocketpj

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2777 on: March 22, 2017, 08:46:43 PM »
So, now it's coming out that the FBI has evidence members of Trump's team coordinated with Russian intelligence (timing the Wikileaks dump).

When your president wins an election by colluding with a foreign power, what does that mean for your country?  If the dominant narrative from the governing party is that the leaks are the issue, rather than what is being leaked...

You guys are fucked unless you can figure out a way to save your constitution from these people.  Lots of countries have meaningless constitutions.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2778 on: March 22, 2017, 09:07:06 PM »
So, now it's coming out that the FBI has evidence members of Trump's team coordinated with Russian intelligence (timing the Wikileaks dump).

When your president wins an election by colluding with a foreign power, what does that mean for your country?  If the dominant narrative from the governing party is that the leaks are the issue, rather than what is being leaked...

You guys are fucked unless you can figure out a way to save your constitution from these people.  Lots of countries have meaningless constitutions.
That would be shocking if concrete evidence emerges and I think it would be the end for the administration. Ryan and the Republicans would be quite happy with Pence (assuming Pence can get out of it unscathed). OTOH I will be happy that all the people who voted for Trump that I assumed to be idiots are proven to be idiots at the end of this ordeal.

sol

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2779 on: March 22, 2017, 09:33:04 PM »
That would be shocking if concrete evidence emerges and I think it would be the end for the administration.

Not a chance. We already knew trump staffers coordinated with the Russians.  Nobody (republican) cares.  They'll shrug it off.

Trump can do no wrong, with his base.  Nothing will matter.  Trump could admit sexual assault on national tv and they wouldn't care.  Wait, did he already do that?  That's my point.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2780 on: March 22, 2017, 09:52:56 PM »
That would be shocking if concrete evidence emerges and I think it would be the end for the administration.

Not a chance. We already knew trump staffers coordinated with the Russians.  Nobody (republican) cares.  They'll shrug it off.

Trump can do no wrong, with his base.  Nothing will matter.  Trump could admit sexual assault on national tv and they wouldn't care.  Wait, did he already do that?  That's my point.
AFAIK his staffers and future nominees had some one-off conversations with Kislyak because they were stupid. Stupidity is a complete defense, but coordinating leaks with a foreign government is totally different. I'm not prone to violence or protest but if actual collusion (rather than confusion) is corroborated and no action is undertaken by Congress, it might be Molotov cocktail time.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2781 on: March 22, 2017, 10:42:40 PM »
Wow. This sounds like it might actually catch. Would this much info be released if there was nothing behind the investigation?

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2782 on: March 23, 2017, 04:04:15 AM »
I just skimmed a few responses but I really just needed a place to post my thoughts.

I don't even know what to think anymore. He's been in office, what, 60 days or so and I can't keep track of the blunders, potential ethical violations, and short-sighted policy decisions. I pride myself on being a reasonable, thoughtful person, and I don't engage in hyperbole or troll folks on social media or call people names, but...this is f*cking crazy.

It's like (many) Republicans are willing to totally ignore the Russia issues because....well I guess because they don't like the "liberal media?" I mean, I honestly don't understand. What sort of thoughtful person says, "Nah I don't care about knowing more about all the Russia connections. Whatever they are all saying now can't possibly be true." You have the intelligence community getting involved front and center now. I mean, what, is EVERYONE lying BUT Trump?? He's the sole honest person? Seriously?

The whole "no evidence that feeding kids helps kids perform better" thing? WTF? I taught in public schools (for a short time) and I have many family members who work in schools. Kids come to school HUNGRY! They do!  How about you go to work hungry every day and see how well you perform??

And I'll close with this. I have voted for Republican presidents before, as recently as 2008 (yes I voted for McCain). I'm not some extreme person. But this administration has collected the absolutely WORST people  they could gather. EPA, Education, State, I could go on and onu. It's gotten to the point where I don't think I could even be a friend to someone who says, "Oh yeah this is all great! MAGA!!" I mean, we would have no shared values. What's the point?

Try being in my shoes - where you've described my dad, mom, MIL, BIL, SIL, other BIL and somewhat my brother. Every day I read the news. And no - I don't get outraged at the outrage pieces - I get outraged watching congressional hearings on CSPAN and outraged watching POTUS live tweet incoherent bullshit. I don't need pundits to spin me into anger. Reality is sufficient.

When I check in with the GOP members of my family, they've nothing but total approval for this administration. Why? Cuz liberals would bring bureaucracy and that's the ultimate evil. As if we're living in the 70s.

The GOP cult members in my family are unwilling to acknowledge how effective the GOP has been at cowing government agencies into streamlined efficiency. From SS admin to IRS, modern day agencies do a pretty good job. It's not the 1970s anymore. But that's what their news feeds tell them so it must be so and I'm naive for believing scientists and peer reviewed studies.

It's a daily struggle to keep from outright hating my family. Their support of this anit-science, anti-constitution, anti-democratic bullshit could be sowing the seeds of our country's - and perhaps our species - destruction.

Like you, Nick_Miller, I pride myself on being a rational, somewhat dispassionate thinker.  And yet look at what I just wrote in the paragraph above. If you'd shown that to me a year ago I wouldn't believe I wrote that. But it's what I've come to accept.

And I blame it all on the privately funded two party system and the rise of corporate personhood. The GOP is a cult,  but the DNC ain't so great either. Combine their skewed incentives with today's surgical propaganda tools and  the defunding of public education,  and I feel like representative liberal democracy is fucked. Hello authoritarian kleptocracy.

I usually stop myself saying this stuff because I sound like a crackpot. But when my dad emails me saying civil asset forfeiture is totally cool and that trumps doing a fine job and that he's optimistic this congress is going to get some great things done ... well I think I'm seeing things quite clearly.

edit: typos.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2017, 06:56:36 AM by Malaysia41 »

golden1

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2783 on: March 23, 2017, 06:25:25 AM »
Quote
Not a chance. We already knew trump staffers coordinated with the Russians.  Nobody (republican) cares.  They'll shrug it off.

Trump can do no wrong, with his base.  Nothing will matter.  Trump could admit sexual assault on national tv and they wouldn't care.  Wait, did he already do that?  That's my point.

Yep.  I have given up on the Republicans ever doing anything about Trump.  Honestly, I think we just need to accept that we are no better than the average Banana Republic at this point.  But we are actually way worse, because we are the dominant military power on the planet with enough nukes to destroy every civilization on the planet with plenty left over. 

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2784 on: March 23, 2017, 08:34:50 AM »
Wow. This sounds like it might actually catch. Would this much info be released if there was nothing behind the investigation?

Manafort is the lynchpin. They're looking at his Cyprus money transfers now.

https://www.apnews.com/d43ef4166da6400ab45140978854bbbb


sol

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2785 on: March 23, 2017, 09:14:55 AM »
Wow. This sounds like it might actually catch. Would this much info be released if there was nothing behind the investigation?

Manafort is the lynchpin. They're looking at his Cyprus money transfers now.

https://www.apnews.com/d43ef4166da6400ab45140978854bbbb

I still don't understand why any of this is news again.  We already knew that multiple people from the trump campaign worked for the Russians before, during, and after their time with trump.  This was not secret, or even disputed.  The payments were documented.  Their influence on Russian policy was obvious.  They bragged about it on television.  Clinton called him a puppet during the debates and he objected like a kindergartener who was just caught eating boogers.

Maybe the FBI just wants to remind everyone that this shady stuff is kind of shady?  He's a shady president and folks voted for him anyway, I don't think they care.

Even this forum discussed these issues, months ago, and generally concluded that nations (including the US) routinely meddle in foreign elections, without it rising to the level of international armed conflict.  Everyone here seemed to say, "ya, the Russians swayed the election but so what?"

Why are we suddenly aggrieved again?

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2786 on: March 23, 2017, 09:22:56 AM »
I think some of you are giving way too much credibility towards Trump's so-called "supporters" and how they wouldn't impeach him for fear of some type of backlash. Trump's supporters are largely poor, working-class white people in rural America. They are not establishment Republicans in Congress. Trump has almost no supporters in Congress. He did not win with establishment Republican support, he won in spite of it. Congressional Republicans (with maybe the exception of Nunes) hold their nose and close their eyes and try to pretend Trump didn't say the things he said, or that they don't matter. Look at what McConnell and Ryan say (or more accurately, don't say) every time they're asked about the most recent, daily outrageousness that emanates from the White House. They don't back him, they only tolerate him because he's President and favorable to their agenda. They would be way more favorable to Pence.

Most voters who voted for Trump didn't think he was some awesome dude. They only thought he was better than Hillary, aka The Devil. They would not deliver some kind of backlash at the polls the next time around if Trump was impeached. The only backlash would be the one that would come anyhow, because Trump has proven to be a reckless disaster. Adding treasonous dealings with Russia would not enamor Trump to those voters the next time around. They'd happily accept a Pence presidency, because Pence is not Hillary.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2017, 09:34:16 AM by DoubleDown »

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2787 on: March 23, 2017, 10:11:47 AM »
I think some of you are giving way too much credibility towards Trump's so-called "supporters" and how they wouldn't impeach him for fear of some type of backlash. Trump's supporters are largely poor, working-class white people in rural America. They are not establishment Republicans in Congress. Trump has almost no supporters in Congress. He did not win with establishment Republican support, he won in spite of it. Congressional Republicans (with maybe the exception of Nunes) hold their nose and close their eyes and try to pretend Trump didn't say the things he said, or that they don't matter. Look at what McConnell and Ryan say (or more accurately, don't say) every time they're asked about the most recent, daily outrageousness that emanates from the White House. They don't back him, they only tolerate him because he's President and favorable to their agenda. They would be way more favorable to Pence.

Most voters who voted for Trump didn't think he was some awesome dude. They only thought he was better than Hillary, aka The Devil. They would not deliver some kind of backlash at the polls the next time around if Trump was impeached. The only backlash would be the one that would come anyhow, because Trump has proven to be a reckless disaster. Adding treasonous dealings with Russia would not enamor Trump to those voters the next time around. They'd happily accept a Pence presidency, because Pence is not Hillary.

I sincerely hope we get to find out who is correct on this point.

sol

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2788 on: March 23, 2017, 10:41:59 AM »
I sincerely hope we get to find out who is correct on this point.

I have never so desperately wanted to be totally wrong.

But I think recent history backs me up on this.  The president of the United States literally said "they let you do it, you can do anything, grab 'em by the pussy" and people still voted for him.  I'm pretty sure he could lead tomorrow's news cycle with "Russia is the greatest country on earth and America sucks balls" and the red states wouldn't even flinch.  He's untouchable, even for treason, and he knows it.


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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2790 on: March 23, 2017, 10:58:45 AM »
Wow. This sounds like it might actually catch. Would this much info be released if there was nothing behind the investigation?

Manafort is the lynchpin. They're looking at his Cyprus money transfers now.

https://www.apnews.com/d43ef4166da6400ab45140978854bbbb

I still don't understand why any of this is news again.  We already knew that multiple people from the trump campaign worked for the Russians before, during, and after their time with trump.  This was not secret, or even disputed.  The payments were documented.  Their influence on Russian policy was obvious.  They bragged about it on television.  Clinton called him a puppet during the debates and he objected like a kindergartener who was just caught eating boogers.

Maybe the FBI just wants to remind everyone that this shady stuff is kind of shady?  He's a shady president and folks voted for him anyway, I don't think they care.

Even this forum discussed these issues, months ago, and generally concluded that nations (including the US) routinely meddle in foreign elections, without it rising to the level of international armed conflict.  Everyone here seemed to say, "ya, the Russians swayed the election but so what?"

Why are we suddenly aggrieved again?

We knew that Manafort was under contract with the Ukraine; we didn't know that he was receiving additional payments from a friend of Putin through a bank in Cyprus, known as a money laundering country.

To answer your question, it's news again and the more that piles on, the more it sways opinions.

You're also way too pessimistic. Eventually even Trumpers will have to admit that he's a con man and a Russian stooge. There will always be that 25% that support him, just like 25% think Nixon wasn't a crook, but his approval rate is 39% and dropping. Given the near 50-50 split, Republicans are starting to look askance at him as well.

« Last Edit: March 23, 2017, 11:15:43 AM by bacchi »

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2791 on: March 23, 2017, 11:18:48 AM »
I just skimmed a few responses but I really just needed a place to post my thoughts.

I don't even know what to think anymore. He's been in office, what, 60 days or so and I can't keep track of the blunders, potential ethical violations, and short-sighted policy decisions. I pride myself on being a reasonable, thoughtful person, and I don't engage in hyperbole or troll folks on social media or call people names, but...this is f*cking crazy.

It's like (many) Republicans are willing to totally ignore the Russia issues because....well I guess because they don't like the "liberal media?" I mean, I honestly don't understand. What sort of thoughtful person says, "Nah I don't care about knowing more about all the Russia connections. Whatever they are all saying now can't possibly be true." You have the intelligence community getting involved front and center now. I mean, what, is EVERYONE lying BUT Trump?? He's the sole honest person? Seriously?

The whole "no evidence that feeding kids helps kids perform better" thing? WTF? I taught in public schools (for a short time) and I have many family members who work in schools. Kids come to school HUNGRY! They do!  How about you go to work hungry every day and see how well you perform??

And I'll close with this. I have voted for Republican presidents before, as recently as 2008 (yes I voted for McCain). I'm not some extreme person. But this administration has collected the absolutely WORST people  they could gather. EPA, Education, State, I could go on and onu. It's gotten to the point where I don't think I could even be a friend to someone who says, "Oh yeah this is all great! MAGA!!" I mean, we would have no shared values. What's the point?

Try being in my shoes - where you've described my dad, mom, MIL, BIL, SIL, other BIL and somewhat my brother. Every day I read the news. And no - I don't get outraged at the outrage pieces - I get outraged watching congressional hearings on CSPAN and outraged watching POTUS live tweet incoherent bullshit. I don't need pundits to spin me into anger. Reality is sufficient.

When I check in with the GOP members of my family, they've nothing but total approval for this administration. Why? Cuz liberals would bring bureaucracy and that's the ultimate evil. As if we're living in the 70s.

The GOP cult members in my family are unwilling to acknowledge how effective the GOP has been at cowing government agencies into streamlined efficiency. From SS admin to IRS, modern day agencies do a pretty good job. It's not the 1970s anymore. But that's what their news feeds tell them so it must be so and I'm naive for believing scientists and peer reviewed studies.

It's a daily struggle to keep from outright hating my family. Their support of this anit-science, anti-constitution, anti-democratic bullshit could be sowing the seeds of our country's - and perhaps our species - destruction.

Like you, Nick_Miller, I pride myself on being a rational, somewhat dispassionate thinker.  And yet look at what I just wrote in the paragraph above. If you'd shown that to me a year ago I wouldn't believe I wrote that. But it's what I've come to accept.

And I blame it all on the privately funded two party system and the rise of corporate personhood. The GOP is a cult,  but the DNC ain't so great either. Combine their skewed incentives with today's surgical propaganda tools and  the defunding of public education,  and I feel like representative liberal democracy is fucked. Hello authoritarian kleptocracy.

I usually stop myself saying this stuff because I sound like a crackpot. But when my dad emails me saying civil asset forfeiture is totally cool and that trumps doing a fine job and that he's optimistic this congress is going to get some great things done ... well I think I'm seeing things quite clearly.

edit: typos.
And this kind of attitude is why Trump one. Yes, we have uneducated within the GOP who blindly follow Trump and the GOP leadership who will say anything to stay in power even if means giving power to Trump and Russia but we also have people who are saying that the dems are almost as bad which is not even close to reality. I doubt any person saying that has ever worked with the DNC.  I have and have found willingness to teach a want for grassroot input.  What I have also seen is people who have no idea how politics works (or hell, how our government works) who want to walk in and solve the problem without compromise or baby steps and expect it to work.  They also expect to be taken seriously without any knowledge base or willingness to learn.  These are people who would never do this within their own field and would be insulted in anyone tried it with them.  This attitude of, I spent 2hrs on the internet so I know as much as an expert in field is a problem.  And just a side note, who is trying to defund public education and who is trying to fund it, that is a great way to figure out a major difference between the two parties.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2792 on: March 23, 2017, 12:35:22 PM »
And this kind of attitude is why Trump one. Yes, we have uneducated within the GOP who blindly follow Trump and the GOP leadership who will say anything to stay in power even if means giving power to Trump and Russia but we also have people who are saying that the dems are almost as bad which is not even close to reality. I doubt any person saying that has ever worked with the DNC.  I have and have found willingness to teach a want for grassroot input.  What I have also seen is people who have no idea how politics works (or hell, how our government works) who want to walk in and solve the problem without compromise or baby steps and expect it to work.  They also expect to be taken seriously without any knowledge base or willingness to learn.  These are people who would never do this within their own field and would be insulted in anyone tried it with them.  This attitude of, I spent 2hrs on the internet so I know as much as an expert in field is a problem.  And just a side note, who is trying to defund public education and who is trying to fund it, that is a great way to figure out a major difference between the two parties.

I don't read false equivalency into that post. You can abhor the current Republican officials while still being disenchanted with the Democrats. I think there are a lot of people who fall into this camp. There's a feeling of "there's no place for me in either party." At the end of the day, the Democrats generally side with big money, which isn't great.

Gin1984

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2793 on: March 23, 2017, 12:39:39 PM »
And this kind of attitude is why Trump one. Yes, we have uneducated within the GOP who blindly follow Trump and the GOP leadership who will say anything to stay in power even if means giving power to Trump and Russia but we also have people who are saying that the dems are almost as bad which is not even close to reality. I doubt any person saying that has ever worked with the DNC.  I have and have found willingness to teach a want for grassroot input.  What I have also seen is people who have no idea how politics works (or hell, how our government works) who want to walk in and solve the problem without compromise or baby steps and expect it to work.  They also expect to be taken seriously without any knowledge base or willingness to learn.  These are people who would never do this within their own field and would be insulted in anyone tried it with them.  This attitude of, I spent 2hrs on the internet so I know as much as an expert in field is a problem.  And just a side note, who is trying to defund public education and who is trying to fund it, that is a great way to figure out a major difference between the two parties.

I don't read false equivalency into that post. You can abhor the current Republican officials while still being disenchanted with the Democrats. I think there are a lot of people who fall into this camp. There's a feeling of "there's no place for me in either party." At the end of the day, the Democrats generally side with big money, which isn't great.
They really don't side with big money.  Otherwise we would not have unions.  They need money and therefore they do need to compromise to get elected and get anything done.  And it is the same attitude, if you don't think you have a place, use the dems to learn how it works and make your local area your place.  Yes it means you can't jump to senator or president right off the bat, but that is not a bad thing.

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Malaysia41

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2794 on: March 23, 2017, 12:41:51 PM »


And I blame it all on the privately funded two party system and the rise of corporate personhood. The GOP is a cult,  but the DNC ain't so great either. Combine their skewed incentives with today's surgical propaganda tools and  the defunding of public education,  and I feel like representative liberal democracy is fucked. Hello authoritarian kleptocracy.

I usually stop myself saying this stuff because I sound like a crackpot. But when my dad emails me saying civil asset forfeiture is totally cool and that trumps doing a fine job and that he's optimistic this congress is going to get some great things done ... well I think I'm seeing things quite clearly.

edit: typos.
And this kind of attitude is why Trump one. Yes, we have uneducated within the GOP who blindly follow Trump and the GOP leadership who will say anything to stay in power even if means giving power to Trump and Russia but we also have people who are saying that the dems are almost as bad which is not even close to reality. I doubt any person saying that has ever worked with the DNC.  I have and have found willingness to teach a want for grassroot input.  What I have also seen is people who have no idea how politics works (or hell, how our government works) who want to walk in and solve the problem without compromise or baby steps and expect it to work.  They also expect to be taken seriously without any knowledge base or willingness to learn.  These are people who would never do this within their own field and would be insulted in anyone tried it with them.  This attitude of, I spent 2hrs on the internet so I know as much as an expert in field is a problem.  And just a side note, who is trying to defund public education and who is trying to fund it, that is a great way to figure out a major difference between the two parties.

I disagree - this attitude of mine is not why Trump won. Believe me, I voted for HRC and rallied as many people as I could to vote for her. I agree that there's a massive difference between the two parties and that's why I've voted dem recently.

From my perspective, the DNC/HRC failed at many turns, and Trump capitalized on the Republican Noise Machine that's been in development for 3+ decades, not to mention pivotal help from Cambridge Analytica in the final months that pushed his numbers up in targeted states like Wisconsin and PA. The DNC lost, not because people like me recognize that private funding of elections is bad, but because of tone-deaf mistakes in their campaign, and they lost because the GOP machine is organized and efficient.

The saying that dems need to fall in love with their candidate, while GOPs fall in line behind any yahoo who bubbles up for the nomination is truer now than ever. And THAT's what the DNC is working against. And they're failing. And part of the problem is that they are trying to appease both their big $ donors and their progressive base. If there were no big $ donors, they'd be progressive. Instead, they've been pulled right (for many reasons that could be a whole other topic thread) and have split their constituents. HRC was a terrible candidate to put forward. I personally have nothing against her. But I'm all too aware of the anti HRC campaign that's played out numerous times in my parents home and in all their friends homes and among the regular GOP base for decades. But, incredibly, GOP-sters like my sister and her boyfriend would have voted for Bernie Sanders. But not HRC.

I'm agreeing that the DNC is way better than the GOP from a policy and human perspective. And your experience working with democrats sounds about what I'd imagine it to be. In fact they are so disorganized that only 12% of registered voters in LA county voted in the latest special election. 12. And they were voting for city council members, mayors, etc.  I would think that post-Trump, any and every registered democrat would vow to vote in every election. Nope. From my FB feed - where my college crew mostly lives in LA - people didn't even know there was an election. Shame on the DNC for not getting that message out. Don't they know about ALEC and Grover Norquist and the incredible coordinating activities of the GOP? The GOP holds 32 state legislatures. They need just ONE more and they can pass whatever constitutional amendments they want. I'm terrified of that. The only thing I REALLY care about is global warming / pollution. They could pass an amendment saying that he government is not allowed to regulate emissions from any business activity. Seriously.

I'm an 'unaffiliated' voter now, but it seems to me that the DNC attracts people who believe in science informed policy making. They want competent governance. And they want government to step in and help people with difficult problems. So, I de-registered as a republican last year, and spent 50 euros making sure my primary ballot arrived on time to get Bernie Sanders elected. Then I spent another 50 euros making sure my Nov ballot arrived on time to vote for HRC.

HRC failed to campaign in regions where Rush Limbaugh has been playing for decades. She said something like lots of coal jobs were going to be lost and gave the haters more fuel to burn her with. She was an awful candidate, even if the most qualified person to run for office last year.

My point is that all of this bullshit is the result of our privately funded two party system. Recognizing the systemic problem didn't put Trump in power. Brainwashed GOP cult members voted for him, and democrats who weren't in love with HRC and were bummed their guy got the shaft stayed home. Simple as that. This was the DNC's election to lose and it's all on them.  So they're disorganized. They'd better get organized. I'm doing all I can. I send info to friends in Kansas, Virginia, Ohio and West Virginia nudging them to vote when it's time. I write articles. And I try to point out the big picture once in a while. Which is that a privately funded two party system will lead us to ever worse governance.

Sorry, this turned into another rant. This is why I usually stop myself from posting. Once I start it's difficult to stop short.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2017, 12:44:31 PM by Malaysia41 »

NoStacheOhio

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2795 on: March 23, 2017, 12:43:09 PM »
And this kind of attitude is why Trump one. Yes, we have uneducated within the GOP who blindly follow Trump and the GOP leadership who will say anything to stay in power even if means giving power to Trump and Russia but we also have people who are saying that the dems are almost as bad which is not even close to reality. I doubt any person saying that has ever worked with the DNC.  I have and have found willingness to teach a want for grassroot input.  What I have also seen is people who have no idea how politics works (or hell, how our government works) who want to walk in and solve the problem without compromise or baby steps and expect it to work.  They also expect to be taken seriously without any knowledge base or willingness to learn.  These are people who would never do this within their own field and would be insulted in anyone tried it with them.  This attitude of, I spent 2hrs on the internet so I know as much as an expert in field is a problem.  And just a side note, who is trying to defund public education and who is trying to fund it, that is a great way to figure out a major difference between the two parties.

I don't read false equivalency into that post. You can abhor the current Republican officials while still being disenchanted with the Democrats. I think there are a lot of people who fall into this camp. There's a feeling of "there's no place for me in either party." At the end of the day, the Democrats generally side with big money, which isn't great.
They really don't side with big money.  Otherwise we would not have unions.  They need money and therefore they do need to compromise to get elected and get anything done.  And it is the same attitude, if you don't think you have a place, use the dems to learn how it works and make your local area your place.  Yes it means you can't jump to senator or president right off the bat, but that is not a bad thing.

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Not all the time, but enough. Investment banks and pharmaceutical companies come to mind (and I say this having had my childhood funded by pharmaceutical companies).

Malaysia41

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2796 on: March 23, 2017, 12:46:04 PM »
And this kind of attitude is why Trump one. Yes, we have uneducated within the GOP who blindly follow Trump and the GOP leadership who will say anything to stay in power even if means giving power to Trump and Russia but we also have people who are saying that the dems are almost as bad which is not even close to reality. I doubt any person saying that has ever worked with the DNC.  I have and have found willingness to teach a want for grassroot input.  What I have also seen is people who have no idea how politics works (or hell, how our government works) who want to walk in and solve the problem without compromise or baby steps and expect it to work.  They also expect to be taken seriously without any knowledge base or willingness to learn.  These are people who would never do this within their own field and would be insulted in anyone tried it with them.  This attitude of, I spent 2hrs on the internet so I know as much as an expert in field is a problem.  And just a side note, who is trying to defund public education and who is trying to fund it, that is a great way to figure out a major difference between the two parties.

I don't read false equivalency into that post. You can abhor the current Republican officials while still being disenchanted with the Democrats. I think there are a lot of people who fall into this camp. There's a feeling of "there's no place for me in either party." At the end of the day, the Democrats generally side with big money, which isn't great.

Thanks, you summed it up more succinctly than I did, NoStacheOhio.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2797 on: March 23, 2017, 12:46:24 PM »
Quote
Not a chance. We already knew trump staffers coordinated with the Russians.  Nobody (republican) cares.  They'll shrug it off.

Trump can do no wrong, with his base.  Nothing will matter.  Trump could admit sexual assault on national tv and they wouldn't care.  Wait, did he already do that?  That's my point.

Yep.  I have given up on the Republicans ever doing anything about Trump.  Honestly, I think we just need to accept that we are no better than the average Banana Republic at this point.  But we are actually way worse, because we are the dominant military power on the planet with enough nukes to destroy every civilization on the planet with plenty left over.

I am not giving up on this.  His approval ratings are starting to tank, and eventually republicans in congress will abandon ship if they get low enough.  We're starting to see people turning against him because of his reckless tweeting and because of Trumpcare.  I am going to keep spreading the word and calling, faxing, and emailing my legislators to tell them that Trumpcare stinks, his "budget" stinks, and I haven't forgotten that Russia helped him steal this presidency.  It's only been 2 months.  Have patience and persist.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2798 on: March 23, 2017, 01:10:48 PM »


And I blame it all on the privately funded two party system and the rise of corporate personhood. The GOP is a cult,  but the DNC ain't so great either. Combine their skewed incentives with today's surgical propaganda tools and  the defunding of public education,  and I feel like representative liberal democracy is fucked. Hello authoritarian kleptocracy.

I usually stop myself saying this stuff because I sound like a crackpot. But when my dad emails me saying civil asset forfeiture is totally cool and that trumps doing a fine job and that he's optimistic this congress is going to get some great things done ... well I think I'm seeing things quite clearly.

edit: typos.
And this kind of attitude is why Trump one. Yes, we have uneducated within the GOP who blindly follow Trump and the GOP leadership who will say anything to stay in power even if means giving power to Trump and Russia but we also have people who are saying that the dems are almost as bad which is not even close to reality. I doubt any person saying that has ever worked with the DNC.  I have and have found willingness to teach a want for grassroot input.  What I have also seen is people who have no idea how politics works (or hell, how our government works) who want to walk in and solve the problem without compromise or baby steps and expect it to work.  They also expect to be taken seriously without any knowledge base or willingness to learn.  These are people who would never do this within their own field and would be insulted in anyone tried it with them.  This attitude of, I spent 2hrs on the internet so I know as much as an expert in field is a problem.  And just a side note, who is trying to defund public education and who is trying to fund it, that is a great way to figure out a major difference between the two parties.

I disagree - this attitude of mine is not why Trump won. Believe me, I voted for HRC and rallied as many people as I could to vote for her. I agree that there's a massive difference between the two parties and that's why I've voted dem recently.

From my perspective, the DNC/HRC failed at many turns, and Trump capitalized on the Republican Noise Machine that's been in development for 3+ decades, not to mention pivotal help from Cambridge Analytica in the final months that pushed his numbers up in targeted states like Wisconsin and PA. The DNC lost, not because people like me recognize that private funding of elections is bad, but because of tone-deaf mistakes in their campaign, and they lost because the GOP machine is organized and efficient.

The saying that dems need to fall in love with their candidate, while GOPs fall in line behind any yahoo who bubbles up for the nomination is truer now than ever. And THAT's what the DNC is working against. And they're failing. And part of the problem is that they are trying to appease both their big $ donors and their progressive base. If there were no big $ donors, they'd be progressive. Instead, they've been pulled right (for many reasons that could be a whole other topic thread) and have split their constituents. HRC was a terrible candidate to put forward. I personally have nothing against her. But I'm all too aware of the anti HRC campaign that's played out numerous times in my parents home and in all their friends homes and among the regular GOP base for decades. But, incredibly, GOP-sters like my sister and her boyfriend would have voted for Bernie Sanders. But not HRC.

I'm agreeing that the DNC is way better than the GOP from a policy and human perspective. And your experience working with democrats sounds about what I'd imagine it to be. In fact they are so disorganized that only 12% of registered voters in LA county voted in the latest special election. 12. And they were voting for city council members, mayors, etc.  I would think that post-Trump, any and every registered democrat would vow to vote in every election. Nope. From my FB feed - where my college crew mostly lives in LA - people didn't even know there was an election. Shame on the DNC for not getting that message out. Don't they know about ALEC and Grover Norquist and the incredible coordinating activities of the GOP? The GOP holds 32 state legislatures. They need just ONE more and they can pass whatever constitutional amendments they want. I'm terrified of that. The only thing I REALLY care about is global warming / pollution. They could pass an amendment saying that he government is not allowed to regulate emissions from any business activity. Seriously.

I'm an 'unaffiliated' voter now, but it seems to me that the DNC attracts people who believe in science informed policy making. They want competent governance. And they want government to step in and help people with difficult problems. So, I de-registered as a republican last year, and spent 50 euros making sure my primary ballot arrived on time to get Bernie Sanders elected. Then I spent another 50 euros making sure my Nov ballot arrived on time to vote for HRC.

HRC failed to campaign in regions where Rush Limbaugh has been playing for decades. She said something like lots of coal jobs were going to be lost and gave the haters more fuel to burn her with. She was an awful candidate, even if the most qualified person to run for office last year.

My point is that all of this bullshit is the result of our privately funded two party system. Recognizing the systemic problem didn't put Trump in power. Brainwashed GOP cult members voted for him, and democrats who weren't in love with HRC and were bummed their guy got the shaft stayed home. Simple as that. This was the DNC's election to lose and it's all on them.  So they're disorganized. They'd better get organized. I'm doing all I can. I send info to friends in Kansas, Virginia, Ohio and West Virginia nudging them to vote when it's time. I write articles. And I try to point out the big picture once in a while. Which is that a privately funded two party system will lead us to ever worse governance.

Sorry, this turned into another rant. This is why I usually stop myself from posting. Once I start it's difficult to stop short.
There is a lot of truth in this.  But it ignores the elephant in the room: the concerted efforts by Russia to influence the election through the leaking of emails and the torrent of disinformation ("fake news") from Russian bots on Facebook and Twitter which drowned out the normal social media content and replaced it with Hilary hatespeech targeted at Republicans and Bernie supporters.

Hilary was not a "terrible" candidate.  She had her flaws, as do all candidates, but she was a better candidate than Trump.  The fact that even someone sympathetic can describe her as terrible without a thought just indicates how all-pervasive the Russian disinformation campaign became.

I mean, "lock her up"?  And "we couldn't possibly have a Presidential candidate who is under FBI investigation"?  Tell me now, who was really the terrible candidate?

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2799 on: March 23, 2017, 01:38:42 PM »

There is a lot of truth in this.  But it ignores the elephant in the room: the concerted efforts by Russia to influence the election through the leaking of emails and the torrent of disinformation ("fake news") from Russian bots on Facebook and Twitter which drowned out the normal social media content and replaced it with Hilary hatespeech targeted at Republicans and Bernie supporters.

Hilary was not a "terrible" candidate.  She had her flaws, as do all candidates, but she was a better candidate than Trump.  The fact that even someone sympathetic can describe her as terrible without a thought just indicates how all-pervasive the Russian disinformation campaign became.

I mean, "lock her up"?  And "we couldn't possibly have a Presidential candidate who is under FBI investigation"?  Tell me now, who was really the terrible candidate?

I would have mentioned Russia too, but my post was already getting very long. Also I'm kind of waiting to see what comes from the investigations. I agree - it's clear that Russian trolls (Internet Research Agency types) were all over reddit, for example, pushing anti-HRC stuff and pro Trump BS. My sense is that Russian involvement went way beyond just chatting with /paying off Manafort and others. Hopefully the investigations to come will clarify just what went down in those deals. The Rosnef sale looks bad, along with much else. Adam Schiff summed it up well in his testimony.

I'm saying she was strategically a "terrible" candidate - not because I bought into the propaganda against her, but because I personally knew so many who had. Sure, I didn't like some of her work as Sec of State, but I think she would have been a fine president. Obviously she was a better candidate than Trump. Hell, she was a better candidate than all of the ~17 GOP candidates. I would have voted for her over all of them.

When I wrote "terrible" I meant she was "possibly unelectable."  And you don't run a possibly-unelectable candidate against a monster like Trump. I mean, early on, they actually tried to push for Trump as their pied piper candidate. Gah.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with that last paragraph.

 

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