Author Topic: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?  (Read 171606 times)

GuitarStv

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2600 on: March 04, 2017, 12:16:23 PM »
Let's take a look at what ISIS believes is good and right and true:
1. Torturing and beheading non-believers and other "infidels" and broadcasting these vile acts as propaganda
2. Raping young children and forcing them into lives as sex slaves for soldiers of ISIS
3. Setting people on fire to burn them alive inside a metal cage
4. Establishing a "caliphate" where all would live under Sharia
5. Mass executions of civilians and anyone else refusing the caliphate
6. Mohammad is the Prophet, the Koran is gospel truth, and if you don't believe it, you will be executed

If you don't like comparing to WWII, can we compare the modern ISIS phenomenon with modern day US actions then?

Let's take a look at what the United States believes is good and right and true today:
1. Torturing and killing (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/guantanamo-bay-sergeant-claims-cia-tortured-3-men-death-article-1.2082610) people suspected of being terrorists in Guantanamo Bay.
2. Supporting child rapists and helping them to maintain power in Afghanistan (https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/world/asia/us-soldiers-told-to-ignore-afghan-allies-abuse-of-boys.html?_r=0).
3. Sexually assaulting (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/02/cia-sexual-abuse-torture-majid-khan-guantanamo-bay) innocent (http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/most-guantanamo-detainees-are-innocent-ex-bush-official-1.804550) people after kidnapping them from their countries.
4. Banning people from entering the country because of their religion (https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2017/03/03/in-leaked-document-the-case-for-trumps-muslim-ban-takes-another-huge-hit/?utm_term=.0d672b977307).
5. Execution of civilians without any form of due process or culpability (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_from_U.S._drone_strikes)
6. The highest military commander in the country voicing support for murder (http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/02/politics/donald-trump-terrorists-families/).


ISIS is responsible for some really horrible stuff.  But the thing is, they exist because of the US invasion of Iraq.  Actions have consequences . . . and I'm not seeing any real interest by Americans to correct or stop the truly terrible things that are being done under the stars and stripes around the world today.  This just sets up more problems (like the current ISIS one) in the future for the rest of the world.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2601 on: March 04, 2017, 01:28:10 PM »
The Trump Presidency has made me finally accept that the Clinton years are dead and gone and will never return again. With that in mind, I am going to have to live in a Dog Eat Dog world, because that's what Trump's supporters want, so I am going to completely devour every "dog" in sight. Sounds harsh, I guess, but that's simply how life is going to be in the USA for the foreseeable future. Disappointing, but c'est la vie. Wish things could be different.

Johnez

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2602 on: March 04, 2017, 02:28:30 PM »
WRT ISIS and the USA, to compare them seams like a useless exercise. What is the point in saying the USA is as bad as ISIS? What is trying to be proven? They are not comparable, each "side" has acted in ways that are on their own merits terrible. WRT to torture and our own misdeeds, we have courts, legislators, the American people, and journalists ready to pounce and make it right. The USA is a country that fosters this. THAT says something. We strive to be a better nation. Not perfect, but can anyone truly say the world would be a better place without the US?

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2603 on: March 04, 2017, 02:31:05 PM »
Let's take a look at what ISIS believes is good and right and true:
1. Torturing and beheading non-believers and other "infidels" and broadcasting these vile acts as propaganda
2. Raping young children and forcing them into lives as sex slaves for soldiers of ISIS
3. Setting people on fire to burn them alive inside a metal cage
4. Establishing a "caliphate" where all would live under Sharia
5. Mass executions of civilians and anyone else refusing the caliphate
6. Mohammad is the Prophet, the Koran is gospel truth, and if you don't believe it, you will be executed

If you don't like comparing to WWII, can we compare the modern ISIS phenomenon with modern day US actions then?

Let's take a look at what the United States believes is good and right and true today:
1. Torturing and killing (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/guantanamo-bay-sergeant-claims-cia-tortured-3-men-death-article-1.2082610) people suspected of being terrorists in Guantanamo Bay.
2. Supporting child rapists and helping them to maintain power in Afghanistan (https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/world/asia/us-soldiers-told-to-ignore-afghan-allies-abuse-of-boys.html?_r=0).
3. Sexually assaulting (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/02/cia-sexual-abuse-torture-majid-khan-guantanamo-bay) innocent (http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/most-guantanamo-detainees-are-innocent-ex-bush-official-1.804550) people after kidnapping them from their countries.
4. Banning people from entering the country because of their religion (https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2017/03/03/in-leaked-document-the-case-for-trumps-muslim-ban-takes-another-huge-hit/?utm_term=.0d672b977307).
5. Execution of civilians without any form of due process or culpability (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_from_U.S._drone_strikes)
6. The highest military commander in the country voicing support for murder (http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/02/politics/donald-trump-terrorists-families/).


ISIS is responsible for some really horrible stuff.  But the thing is, they exist because of the US invasion of Iraq.  Actions have consequences . . . and I'm not seeing any real interest by Americans to correct or stop the truly terrible things that are being done under the stars and stripes around the world today.  This just sets up more problems (like the current ISIS one) in the future for the rest of the world.
This. It's actually very similar what ISIS believes they are doing to what the US believed it was doing; stopping an agressive government from expanding vastly outside of its commonly accepted borders.

I will disagree on #4 - I can't imagine that a country stoppjng people from see enteringit is worth fighting a war over, or a good excuse for acts of violence. The others are more clearly despicable acts; securing borders through non violent means hardly rises to the level of torture  and murder of innocents, even if it is not ideal.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2604 on: March 04, 2017, 08:41:22 PM »
I understand to some extent how and why ISIS rationalizes terrorist attacks. I also agree the US has not made perfect geopolitical maneuvers over the last 20 years and that adhering to a realist foreign policy stance does sweep aside the occasional liberal democratic ideal. While arguably those considerations close the moral gap between ISIS and the US by an atomic distance, the reality is the remaining difference is about as big of a chasm as exists in the modern world.

Secondly, while ISIS did emerge in the power vacuum left behind due to the US invasion of Iraq and the Arab Spring in Syria, many of the ideological foundations of ISIS have existed in the Wahhabist school of Islamic thought for quite some time. The US did not invent this anti-rational, violent, immoral system of beliefs and the US invasion is merely a post hoc justification (and a useful source for recruiting propaganda) for committing atrocities both domestic and foreign for this group. ISIS or those clinging to its ideological dregs were not allies of the neo-Ba'athist governments of Iraq and Syria and were presumably not unhappy to see those more moderate administrations crumble. And of course, terrorist acts in Iraq only increased the duration that it was necessary for the US to have a military presence there (not to mention how sectarian and dysfunctional post-Saddam Iraq is).

This is the one thing Bannon might be right about in a limited sense: the basis of ISIS's violence is more in the long-term untenability of extremist Islamic Wahhabism in the face of liberal, progressive, Western influence, and the extremists know this. There is some truth to the clash of civilizations view in this matter, whether we like it or not. I'm not buying simplistic morality tales about how one country should not be occupying the other; the real world has a lot more color than that and the picture it paints is relatively good for the US and liberal western democracy and rather bad for ISIS and associated ideologies.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2605 on: March 04, 2017, 11:11:19 PM »
The Trump Presidency has made me finally accept that the Clinton years are dead and gone and will never return again. With that in mind, I am going to have to live in a Dog Eat Dog world, because that's what Trump's supporters want, so I am going to completely devour every "dog" in sight. Sounds harsh, I guess, but that's simply how life is going to be in the USA for the foreseeable future. Disappointing, but c'est la vie. Wish things could be different.

This is the view I'm coming around to accepting too. This world view denies our shared humanity, but it is becoming the reality. You get what you wish for, huh? Anyway, what am I going to do? Keep upsetting my mom by posting truthful well-thought out posts on facebook that point out where we're headed and what's gone wrong? The alt-(insert big $ sponsor) media has people believing that the world is a scary scary place and that everyone who needs a little assistance is a money grubbing welfare queen. Once those ideas are in peoples heads, it's very hard to argue against them.

What Guitar Stv wrote - I agree. I liked Obama - and he didn't start the war in Iraq - but some of the policies he continued and / or turned a blind eye to are exactly the kinds of things people hate us for. Of course I realize it's a big job - and when congress does nothing but obstruct every effort you make, it's easy to lean toward expediency vs right action.
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GuitarStv

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2606 on: March 05, 2017, 07:49:02 AM »
WRT ISIS and the USA, to compare them seams like a useless exercise. What is the point in saying the USA is as bad as ISIS? What is trying to be proven? They are not comparable, each "side" has acted in ways that are on their own merits terrible. WRT to torture and our own misdeeds, we have courts, legislators, the American people, and journalists ready to pounce and make it right. The USA is a country that fosters this. THAT says something. We strive to be a better nation. Not perfect, but can anyone truly say the world would be a better place without the US?

The point of discussing ongoing acts of terror by the United States is to generate enough interest and understanding of what is being done in the name of the American people that they take it seriously.  The government and military of the US work for the people.  If the behaviour of these organizations becomes unpopular enough, then the people can force a change.  Stopping the US from regularly implementing immoral policy would be beneficial to the whole world.  ISIS is a terrible group of people, I desperately want the US to have moral high ground.

It has been more than a decade and a half since the US started kidnapping, torturing, sexually assaulting, and holding hundreds of innocent people without trial.  Zero people in the military have been held accountable.  At this point I'd be shocked to ever see anyone in the military ever held accountable for their crimes.  The plethora of journalists and news stories about these crimes han't prevented many Americans (including quite a few on these forums) from remaining unaware of what's happening.  Obviously the things you're claiming are fostered in the US, aren't working as well as you claim.

The US is generally a pretty good country, filled with many people who are trying to do things to better the world.  The US is also a powerful country.  History has shown dozens of times where that power has been abused, and currently it is being abused.  There will always be extremism in the world, but let's not create conditions for it to flourish.  It's unrealistic to expect a country to be perfect . . . but perfection has nothing to do with kidnapping, torture, sexual assault, and murder.  It has nothing to do with invading a country based on lies, and then running away from that country when rebuilding becomes difficult.  If you aren't admitting to and fixing your mistakes, I don't believe that you can claim to be striving to be a better nation.  Nobody is being held accountable right now, and that means nothing in the US approach to things will get fixed.  That's why we need to shine a spotlight on these mistakes as often and brightly as possible.

Abe

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2607 on: March 05, 2017, 10:38:41 AM »
Also, the majority of poor Trump supporters welcoming a dog-eat-dog world will be the ones eaten. They think right now that they're on top for once, but that is an illusion. This is all just accelerating my desire to accumulate wealth, accumulate defensive weaponry, retire early and bounce.

dragoncar

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2608 on: March 05, 2017, 06:14:09 PM »
Also, the majority of poor Trump supporters welcoming a dog-eat-dog world will be the ones eaten. They think right now that they're on top for once, but that is an illusion. This is all just accelerating my desire to accumulate wealth, accumulate defensive weaponry, retire early and bounce.

It's called Republican Exceptionalism.  It's a known fact that republicans are more successful, better looking, and exceptionally virile.

Unique User

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2609 on: March 06, 2017, 05:57:58 AM »
Looking at the docket and future bills - there are some truly scary ones in there.  Most are still in committee, but, any of these would be signed by Trump, except maybe the last one.  He will not want to sign a bill that gives him less power, so that one is an unknown  Based on this administration I'm just not sure whether I want it to pass.  Not in any order of importance and not including the multiple bills to repeal the ACA since those are well known.   

H.R. 861: To terminate the Environmental Protection Agency
One sentence long and cosponsored by Republican members of Congress from fossil fuel-producing states. Currently awaiting action in the subcommittee on environment.

2. H.R. 610: Tax dollars for private schools
Rep. Steve King (R-Iowa) introduced this bill in January, which would redistribute funding earmarked for public schools in the form of vouchers for parents to send children to private schools. There is no protection for special needs kids, AP programs, disabled kids, etc.  Awaiting action in the House Committee on Education and the Workforce.

3. H.R. 899: To terminate the Department of Education
Introduced by Rep. Thomas Massie (R-Kentucky), would cause the U.S. Department of Education to terminate by the end of 2018. Currently in committee.

4. H.J.R. 69: To repeal a rule protecting wildlife
Introduced by Rep. Don Young (R-Alaska), this repeals a rule that prohibits “non-subsistence” hunting in the Alaska National Wildlife Refuge. The resolution passed the House and is awaiting action in the Senate.  Wildlife in ANWR are already under stress from rising temps.  Without action on climate change, scientists predict we could lose wild polar bears by 2100.  Two-thirds could be gone by 2050, this bill would hasten their demise. 

5.  H.R. 172: To restore the Free Speech and First Amendment rights of churches and exempt organizations by repealing the 1954 Johnson Amendment
This one is sponsored by Rep Walter Jones (R-NC).  He confuses me, sometimes he actually votes logically and then he does something crazy like propose this bill. 

6. H.R. 1031: To eliminate the Bureau of Consumer Financial Protection by repealing title X of the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act, commonly known as the Consumer Financial Protection Act of 2010.
Sponsored by Rep. John Ratcliffe (R-TX). 

7. H.R. 198 & H.R. 631 & H.R. 451: Permanently Repeal the Estate Tax Act of 2017
HR 198 is sponsored by Rep. Mac Thornberry (R-TX), HR 451 by Rep. Robert Latta (R-OH) and HR 631 by Rep. Kristi Noem (R-SD).  One of these is probably a done deal. 

8.  H.R. 354: To defund Planned Parenthood
Rep. Diane Black (R-Tennessee) introduced this bill which would prevent any federal grants from going to Planned Parenthood for a year unless they swore to not perform abortions. Only 3 percent of Planned Parenthood resources go toward abortions and ZERO federal dollars.  The vast majority of funding is used to help low-income women get STD tests, contraceptive care, and breast cancer screenings.  In committee.

9. H.R. 785: National Right-to-Work legislation
Again, the lovely Rep. Steve King (R-Iowa) is looking out for the country.  In committee.

10.  H.R. 147: To criminalize abortion
Sponsored by Rep. Trent Franks (R-Arizona) the bill would prosecute pregnant women seeking abortions, along with abortion providers, by making abortion a felony punishable by up to five years in prison. Currently awaiting action in the Subcommittee on the Constitution and Civil Justice.

11.  S. 21: Regulations from the Executive in Need of Scrutiny Act of 2017
The REINS Act passed the House already and is in the Senate.  Sponsored by Rand Paul (R-Ky).  It requires that any future major regulation adopted by an Executive Agency must be approved by a specific resolution in each House of Congress within 70 days to take effect.  While I think this would be a good thing for the Trump Administration, if it had been in effect under the Obama Administration, regulations that were passed including food safety regulations, the Clean Power Plan regulating pollution from electrical generating facilities, net neutrality rules protecting the internet from monopoly, restrictions on predatory lending and energy efficiency standards for appliances would never have passed.   



Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2610 on: March 06, 2017, 06:31:55 AM »
WRT ISIS and the USA, to compare them seams like a useless exercise. What is the point in saying the USA is as bad as ISIS? What is trying to be proven? They are not comparable, each "side" has acted in ways that are on their own merits terrible. WRT to torture and our own misdeeds, we have courts, legislators, the American people, and journalists ready to pounce and make it right. The USA is a country that fosters this. THAT says something. We strive to be a better nation. Not perfect, but can anyone truly say the world would be a better place without the US?

The point of discussing ongoing acts of terror by the United States is to generate enough interest and understanding of what is being done in the name of the American people that they take it seriously.  The government and military of the US work for the people.  If the behaviour of these organizations becomes unpopular enough, then the people can force a change.  Stopping the US from regularly implementing immoral policy would be beneficial to the whole world.  ISIS is a terrible group of people, I desperately want the US to have moral high ground.

It has been more than a decade and a half since the US started kidnapping, torturing, sexually assaulting, and holding hundreds of innocent people without trial.  Zero people in the military have been held accountable.  At this point I'd be shocked to ever see anyone in the military ever held accountable for their crimes.  The plethora of journalists and news stories about these crimes han't prevented many Americans (including quite a few on these forums) from remaining unaware of what's happening.  Obviously the things you're claiming are fostered in the US, aren't working as well as you claim.

The US is generally a pretty good country, filled with many people who are trying to do things to better the world.  The US is also a powerful country.  History has shown dozens of times where that power has been abused, and currently it is being abused.  There will always be extremism in the world, but let's not create conditions for it to flourish.  It's unrealistic to expect a country to be perfect . . . but perfection has nothing to do with kidnapping, torture, sexual assault, and murder.  It has nothing to do with invading a country based on lies, and then running away from that country when rebuilding becomes difficult.  If you aren't admitting to and fixing your mistakes, I don't believe that you can claim to be striving to be a better nation.  Nobody is being held accountable right now, and that means nothing in the US approach to things will get fixed.  That's why we need to shine a spotlight on these mistakes as often and brightly as possible.

This. Attention will hopefully lead to change. Personally, I don't even care as much for people being held accountable if these actions stop and steps are taken to ensure they are less likely to happen in the future.
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

OurTown

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2611 on: March 06, 2017, 07:12:05 AM »
Looking at the docket and future bills - there are some truly scary ones in there.  Most are still in committee, but, any of these would be signed by Trump, except maybe the last one.  He will not want to sign a bill that gives him less power, so that one is an unknown  Based on this administration I'm just not sure whether I want it to pass.  Not in any order of importance and not including the multiple bills to repeal the ACA since those are well known.   

H.R. 861: To terminate the Environmental Protection Agency
One sentence long and cosponsored by Republican members of Congress from fossil fuel-producing states. Currently awaiting action in the subcommittee on environment.

2. H.R. 610: Tax dollars for private schools
Rep. Steve King (R-Iowa) introduced this bill in January, which would redistribute funding earmarked for public schools in the form of vouchers for parents to send children to private schools. There is no protection for special needs kids, AP programs, disabled kids, etc.  Awaiting action in the House Committee on Education and the Workforce.

3. H.R. 899: To terminate the Department of Education
Introduced by Rep. Thomas Massie (R-Kentucky), would cause the U.S. Department of Education to terminate by the end of 2018. Currently in committee.

4. H.J.R. 69: To repeal a rule protecting wildlife
Introduced by Rep. Don Young (R-Alaska), this repeals a rule that prohibits “non-subsistence” hunting in the Alaska National Wildlife Refuge. The resolution passed the House and is awaiting action in the Senate.  Wildlife in ANWR are already under stress from rising temps.  Without action on climate change, scientists predict we could lose wild polar bears by 2100.  Two-thirds could be gone by 2050, this bill would hasten their demise. 

5.  H.R. 172: To restore the Free Speech and First Amendment rights of churches and exempt organizations by repealing the 1954 Johnson Amendment
This one is sponsored by Rep Walter Jones (R-NC).  He confuses me, sometimes he actually votes logically and then he does something crazy like propose this bill. 

6. H.R. 1031: To eliminate the Bureau of Consumer Financial Protection by repealing title X of the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act, commonly known as the Consumer Financial Protection Act of 2010.
Sponsored by Rep. John Ratcliffe (R-TX). 

7. H.R. 198 & H.R. 631 & H.R. 451: Permanently Repeal the Estate Tax Act of 2017
HR 198 is sponsored by Rep. Mac Thornberry (R-TX), HR 451 by Rep. Robert Latta (R-OH) and HR 631 by Rep. Kristi Noem (R-SD).  One of these is probably a done deal. 

8.  H.R. 354: To defund Planned Parenthood
Rep. Diane Black (R-Tennessee) introduced this bill which would prevent any federal grants from going to Planned Parenthood for a year unless they swore to not perform abortions. Only 3 percent of Planned Parenthood resources go toward abortions and ZERO federal dollars.  The vast majority of funding is used to help low-income women get STD tests, contraceptive care, and breast cancer screenings.  In committee.

9. H.R. 785: National Right-to-Work legislation
Again, the lovely Rep. Steve King (R-Iowa) is looking out for the country.  In committee.

10.  H.R. 147: To criminalize abortion
Sponsored by Rep. Trent Franks (R-Arizona) the bill would prosecute pregnant women seeking abortions, along with abortion providers, by making abortion a felony punishable by up to five years in prison. Currently awaiting action in the Subcommittee on the Constitution and Civil Justice.

11.  S. 21: Regulations from the Executive in Need of Scrutiny Act of 2017
The REINS Act passed the House already and is in the Senate.  Sponsored by Rand Paul (R-Ky).  It requires that any future major regulation adopted by an Executive Agency must be approved by a specific resolution in each House of Congress within 70 days to take effect.  While I think this would be a good thing for the Trump Administration, if it had been in effect under the Obama Administration, regulations that were passed including food safety regulations, the Clean Power Plan regulating pollution from electrical generating facilities, net neutrality rules protecting the internet from monopoly, restrictions on predatory lending and energy efficiency standards for appliances would never have passed.

Sweet Jesus, we are all so fucked.

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2612 on: March 06, 2017, 07:31:16 AM »
Looking at the docket and future bills - there are some truly scary ones in there.  Most are still in committee, but, any of these would be signed by Trump, except maybe the last one.  He will not want to sign a bill that gives him less power, so that one is an unknown  Based on this administration I'm just not sure whether I want it to pass.  Not in any order of importance and not including the multiple bills to repeal the ACA since those are well known.   

H.R. 861: To terminate the Environmental Protection Agency
One sentence long and cosponsored by Republican members of Congress from fossil fuel-producing states. Currently awaiting action in the subcommittee on environment.

2. H.R. 610: Tax dollars for private schools
Rep. Steve King (R-Iowa) introduced this bill in January, which would redistribute funding earmarked for public schools in the form of vouchers for parents to send children to private schools. There is no protection for special needs kids, AP programs, disabled kids, etc.  Awaiting action in the House Committee on Education and the Workforce.

3. H.R. 899: To terminate the Department of Education
Introduced by Rep. Thomas Massie (R-Kentucky), would cause the U.S. Department of Education to terminate by the end of 2018. Currently in committee.

4. H.J.R. 69: To repeal a rule protecting wildlife
Introduced by Rep. Don Young (R-Alaska), this repeals a rule that prohibits “non-subsistence” hunting in the Alaska National Wildlife Refuge. The resolution passed the House and is awaiting action in the Senate.  Wildlife in ANWR are already under stress from rising temps.  Without action on climate change, scientists predict we could lose wild polar bears by 2100.  Two-thirds could be gone by 2050, this bill would hasten their demise. 

5.  H.R. 172: To restore the Free Speech and First Amendment rights of churches and exempt organizations by repealing the 1954 Johnson Amendment
This one is sponsored by Rep Walter Jones (R-NC).  He confuses me, sometimes he actually votes logically and then he does something crazy like propose this bill. 

6. H.R. 1031: To eliminate the Bureau of Consumer Financial Protection by repealing title X of the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act, commonly known as the Consumer Financial Protection Act of 2010.
Sponsored by Rep. John Ratcliffe (R-TX). 

7. H.R. 198 & H.R. 631 & H.R. 451: Permanently Repeal the Estate Tax Act of 2017
HR 198 is sponsored by Rep. Mac Thornberry (R-TX), HR 451 by Rep. Robert Latta (R-OH) and HR 631 by Rep. Kristi Noem (R-SD).  One of these is probably a done deal. 

8.  H.R. 354: To defund Planned Parenthood
Rep. Diane Black (R-Tennessee) introduced this bill which would prevent any federal grants from going to Planned Parenthood for a year unless they swore to not perform abortions. Only 3 percent of Planned Parenthood resources go toward abortions and ZERO federal dollars.  The vast majority of funding is used to help low-income women get STD tests, contraceptive care, and breast cancer screenings.  In committee.

9. H.R. 785: National Right-to-Work legislation
Again, the lovely Rep. Steve King (R-Iowa) is looking out for the country.  In committee.

10.  H.R. 147: To criminalize abortion
Sponsored by Rep. Trent Franks (R-Arizona) the bill would prosecute pregnant women seeking abortions, along with abortion providers, by making abortion a felony punishable by up to five years in prison. Currently awaiting action in the Subcommittee on the Constitution and Civil Justice.

11.  S. 21: Regulations from the Executive in Need of Scrutiny Act of 2017
The REINS Act passed the House already and is in the Senate.  Sponsored by Rand Paul (R-Ky).  It requires that any future major regulation adopted by an Executive Agency must be approved by a specific resolution in each House of Congress within 70 days to take effect.  While I think this would be a good thing for the Trump Administration, if it had been in effect under the Obama Administration, regulations that were passed including food safety regulations, the Clean Power Plan regulating pollution from electrical generating facilities, net neutrality rules protecting the internet from monopoly, restrictions on predatory lending and energy efficiency standards for appliances would never have passed.

Sweet Jesus, we are all so fucked.
Wow.. Hyperbole, much?
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

KBecks

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2613 on: March 06, 2017, 07:40:39 AM »
The Trump Presidency has made me finally accept that the Clinton years are dead and gone and will never return again. With that in mind, I am going to have to live in a Dog Eat Dog world, because that's what Trump's supporters want, so I am going to completely devour every "dog" in sight. Sounds harsh, I guess, but that's simply how life is going to be in the USA for the foreseeable future. Disappointing, but c'est la vie. Wish things could be different.

What exactly do you mean? 

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2614 on: March 06, 2017, 07:45:32 AM »
4 and 9 have my support. I'll have to think about 11 but off the cuff I think it has merit.

4: Issuing tags, collecting revenue, and using it to manage those populations has been beneficial to every area its been done before. If you love wildlife, you would support hunting.

9: Unions these days are about protecting the lazy and parasitically killing their host industry. The only think I'd change is to add an explicit ban on public employee unions.


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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2615 on: March 06, 2017, 06:56:06 PM »
I realized tonight that I want very much to see Donald Trump drug tested. So many Americans have to be drug tested for their jobs - why not Donald???


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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2616 on: March 06, 2017, 07:01:05 PM »
I realized tonight that I want very much to see Donald Trump drug tested. So many Americans have to be drug tested for their jobs - why not Donald???
I honestly think that it may be better if he were prescribed some drugs...
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2617 on: March 06, 2017, 07:29:48 PM »

11.  S. 21: Regulations from the Executive in Need of Scrutiny Act of 2017
The REINS Act passed the House already and is in the Senate.  Sponsored by Rand Paul (R-Ky).  It requires that any future major regulation adopted by an Executive Agency must be approved by a specific resolution in each House of Congress within 70 days to take effect.  While I think this would be a good thing for the Trump Administration, if it had been in effect under the Obama Administration, regulations that were passed including food safety regulations, the Clean Power Plan regulating pollution from electrical generating facilities, net neutrality rules protecting the internet from monopoly, restrictions on predatory lending and energy efficiency standards for appliances would never have passed.

You can't have it both ways. Either you take away the power or you accept that as soon as someone you don't agree with gets it, they will use it against you. The urge to contain executive overreach is understandable but in the current climate you would probably just be ensuring that nothing will ever get done unless you have a majority in the house, congress and control the white house.

I suspect I would have to study a lot of our parties governing histories as well as well as better understand where we are now to even take a wild guess as to how a change like that would impact the fed...

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2618 on: March 06, 2017, 07:49:31 PM »
Quote
"Since his election a scant six weeks ago, Trump has defamed a great newspaper, a federal judge, and a former president. He has attacked whole institutions, pillars of American democracy. He appears willing to hold a great constitutional order hostage to his narcissism and political insecurities. One wishes to echo the words of Joseph Welch who famously asked of Joe McCarthy: “Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?”

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/06/president-donald-trump-most-powerful-cornered-animal-world

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2619 on: March 06, 2017, 09:08:51 PM »
Quote
"Since his election a scant six weeks ago, Trump has defamed a great newspaper, a federal judge, and a former president. He has attacked whole institutions, pillars of American democracy. He appears willing to hold a great constitutional order hostage to his narcissism and political insecurities. One wishes to echo the words of Joseph Welch who famously asked of Joe McCarthy: “Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?”

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/06/president-donald-trump-most-powerful-cornered-animal-world

Given the recent accusation from Trump claiming, despite an utter void of evidence, that Obama wiretapped his phones...it seems Obama could easily sue for libel, no?

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2620 on: March 06, 2017, 09:17:52 PM »
Given the recent accusation from Trump claiming, despite an utter void of evidence, that Obama wiretapped his phones...it seems Obama could easily sue for libel, no?

Anyone else find the timing of this accusation baffling, even by Trump standards?

Intelligence community: It appears that many of Trump's campaign team had contact with the Russians.

Trump: They must have bugged my phone!

Not the most convincing of rebuttals.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2621 on: March 06, 2017, 10:01:14 PM »
The early reports on the wire tapping accusations suggested that it wasn't that Obama had tapped his phones, it was that the FBI cybercrimes division had identified a computer server in Trump tower being operated by a Russian bank, and had obtained a warrant to search the server.  And then it turned out it was just a banking server, not a communications hub, and Trump had it in Trump tower because he does a lot of business with Russian banks, so they closed the file and moved on.

Which is why I was kind of surprised to see Trump drawing so much attention to the story.  "Hey everyone, look!  I'm in bed with the Russians!" is not usually the best way to distract people from news stories about your campaign's ties to Russia.

But is anyone really surprised? 
Trump falsely claims that Obama faked his birth certificate. 
Trump falsely claimed that thousands of muslims in New York celebrated 9/11.   
Trump falsely claimed that Ted Cruz's father handled Lee Harvey Oswald. 
Trump falsely claimed his inauguration crowd was the largest ever, period. 
Trump falsely claimed that Justic Scalia was murdered.
Trump falsely claimed that vaccines caused autism.
Trump falsely claimed that he won the popular vote except for voter fraud.

Now Trump falsely claims that Obama tapped his phones, and everyone is suddenly like "hey man, that's just crazy"?  Where was that response six years ago when he started in with the whole birther thing?  The man doesn't appear to have any grounding in reality whatsoever.

This is what America has come to.  Congratulations, my fellow Americans.  You've elected a serial liar to represent you as your leader. 
« Last Edit: March 06, 2017, 10:26:59 PM by sol »

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2622 on: March 07, 2017, 01:21:26 AM »

Snip!


Sweet Jesus, we are all so fucked.
Wow.. Hyperbole, much?

No... not hyperbole. I reckon if you are going to eliminate your Department of Eduction and the body charged with protecting your environment from the worst excesses of the market system then it really shows what you (don't) value.

Can't think of a more bone headed idea than stating to your population that "we don't think it's important that there is an oversight body which looks at setting appropriate education standards for your children. Or giving the green light to every oil company out there to frack for oil in your farmlands and tell them "not to worry, there's no consequence because we neutered the people who will prosecute you for poisoning the water table".

What's going to happen? Will Trump be writing the education curriculum and will children be taught alternative facts? How will you know if your air is safe to breathe and your water is safe to drink? Who will monitor that in the absence of the EPA? Please do not say the corporations will self-regulate.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2623 on: March 07, 2017, 01:46:26 AM »

Snip!


Sweet Jesus, we are all so fucked.
Wow.. Hyperbole, much?

No... not hyperbole. I reckon if you are going to eliminate your Department of Eduction and the body charged with protecting your environment from the worst excesses of the market system then it really shows what you (don't) value.

Can't think of a more bone headed idea than stating to your population that "we don't think it's important that there is an oversight body which looks at setting appropriate education standards for your children. Or giving the green light to every oil company out there to frack for oil in your farmlands and tell them "not to worry, there's no consequence because we neutered the people who will prosecute you for poisoning the water table".

What's going to happen? Will Trump be writing the education curriculum and will children be taught alternative facts? How will you know if your air is safe to breathe and your water is safe to drink? Who will monitor that in the absence of the EPA? Please do not say the corporations will self-regulate.
Like I said; hysterical claims. None of the above are particularly great ideas, but turning control of education to the states is not going automatically to fuck everyone and instantly throw the country back into the dark ages. These bills are still in committee and without Democrat support wont make it past a fillibuster, so the forestated hyperbolic fucking is even more ridiculous to cry about, at this time.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2624 on: March 07, 2017, 04:44:10 AM »
Apparently in 2014 42% of Americans believed that God created humans in the last 10,000 years and 19% considered that humans had evolved without God's "guiding hand".  That 42% are pretty much the definition of dark ages thinking.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/170822/believe-creationist-view-human-origins.aspx
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2625 on: March 07, 2017, 04:59:35 AM »
Apparently in 2014 42% of Americans believed that God created humans in the last 10,000 years and 19% considered that humans had evolved without God's "guiding hand".  That 42% are pretty much the definition of dark ages thinking.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/170822/believe-creationist-view-human-origins.aspx
People believe all sorts of crazy things. Many people on the planet believe that they'll go to a firey pit for all eternity if they draw a picture of the bearded profit of their sky fairy. I guess mondern society still has a lot of progressing to do.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2626 on: March 07, 2017, 05:29:02 AM »
Apparently in 2014 42% of Americans believed that God created humans in the last 10,000 years and 19% considered that humans had evolved without God's "guiding hand".  That 42% are pretty much the definition of dark ages thinking.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/170822/believe-creationist-view-human-origins.aspx
People believe all sorts of crazy things. Many people on the planet believe that they'll go to a firey pit for all eternity if they draw a picture of the bearded profit of their sky fairy. I guess mondern society still has a lot of progressing to do.

Roughly 12 million folks believe our country is run by alien shape shifting reptilians. 22 million still think the moon landings were faked.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2627 on: March 07, 2017, 05:43:14 AM »

Snip!


Sweet Jesus, we are all so fucked.
Wow.. Hyperbole, much?

No... not hyperbole. I reckon if you are going to eliminate your Department of Eduction and the body charged with protecting your environment from the worst excesses of the market system then it really shows what you (don't) value.

Can't think of a more bone headed idea than stating to your population that "we don't think it's important that there is an oversight body which looks at setting appropriate education standards for your children. Or giving the green light to every oil company out there to frack for oil in your farmlands and tell them "not to worry, there's no consequence because we neutered the people who will prosecute you for poisoning the water table".

What's going to happen? Will Trump be writing the education curriculum and will children be taught alternative facts? How will you know if your air is safe to breathe and your water is safe to drink? Who will monitor that in the absence of the EPA? Please do not say the corporations will self-regulate.
Like I said; hysterical claims. None of the above are particularly great ideas, but turning control of education to the states is not going automatically to fuck everyone and instantly throw the country back into the dark ages. These bills are still in committee and without Democrat support wont make it past a fillibuster, so the forestated hyperbolic fucking is even more ridiculous to cry about, at this time.

Although turning control of education to the states will not throw the country into the dark ages, it will be hugely damaging.  I just heard from my Rep's aide that he believes that states should control educational standards, my reply to her was that while it sounds like a great idea in theory, in practice it is horrible.  I have a teenager that has attended schools in three states.  Each time she was either ahead or behind and could have missed crucial topics in math as well as perhaps not so crucial areas in science if we had not been paying attention.  I can't even imagine how bad it would be without the Dept of Ed.  Across the board educational standards are a good thing, our kids are already behind many other countries, why take steps to make them less competitive?

And while I agree that the actual elimination of these departments will not happen, the crippling of them is very, very real and already happening. 

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2628 on: March 07, 2017, 05:48:26 AM »
Apparently in 2014 42% of Americans believed that God created humans in the last 10,000 years and 19% considered that humans had evolved without God's "guiding hand".  That 42% are pretty much the definition of dark ages thinking.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/170822/believe-creationist-view-human-origins.aspx
People believe all sorts of crazy things. Many people on the planet believe that they'll go to a firey pit for all eternity if they draw a picture of the bearded profit of their sky fairy. I guess mondern society still has a lot of progressing to do.
I'd quite like it if the US education system didn't set out to indoctrinate kids in any of those beliefs.
Be frugal and industrious, and you will be free (Ben Franklin)

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2629 on: March 07, 2017, 05:51:56 AM »
Apparently in 2014 42% of Americans believed that God created humans in the last 10,000 years and 19% considered that humans had evolved without God's "guiding hand".  That 42% are pretty much the definition of dark ages thinking.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/170822/believe-creationist-view-human-origins.aspx
People believe all sorts of crazy things. Many people on the planet believe that they'll go to a firey pit for all eternity if they draw a picture of the bearded profit of their sky fairy. I guess mondern society still has a lot of progressing to do.
I'd quite like it if the US education system didn't set out to indoctrinate kids in any of those beliefs.
I don't think that there is much danger of indoctrination of those beliefs being set as an educational standard in the U.S. in the foreseeable future.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2630 on: March 07, 2017, 06:01:12 AM »
Apparently in 2014 42% of Americans believed that God created humans in the last 10,000 years and 19% considered that humans had evolved without God's "guiding hand".  That 42% are pretty much the definition of dark ages thinking.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/170822/believe-creationist-view-human-origins.aspx
People believe all sorts of crazy things. Many people on the planet believe that they'll go to a firey pit for all eternity if they draw a picture of the bearded profit of their sky fairy. I guess mondern society still has a lot of progressing to do.
I'd quite like it if the US education system didn't set out to indoctrinate kids in any of those beliefs.
I don't think that there is much danger of indoctrination of those beliefs being set as an educational standard in the U.S. in the foreseeable future.
You don't need to set it as an educational standard when enough schools/states already have it as a standard. 
As an example: http://www.nea.org/home/39060.htm

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2631 on: March 07, 2017, 06:07:54 AM »
Apparently in 2014 42% of Americans believed that God created humans in the last 10,000 years and 19% considered that humans had evolved without God's "guiding hand".  That 42% are pretty much the definition of dark ages thinking.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/170822/believe-creationist-view-human-origins.aspx
People believe all sorts of crazy things. Many people on the planet believe that they'll go to a firey pit for all eternity if they draw a picture of the bearded profit of their sky fairy. I guess mondern society still has a lot of progressing to do.
I'd quite like it if the US education system didn't set out to indoctrinate kids in any of those beliefs.
I don't think that there is much danger of indoctrination of those beliefs being set as an educational standard in the U.S. in the foreseeable future.
You don't need to set it as an educational standard when enough schools/states already have it as a standard. 
As an example: http://www.nea.org/home/39060.htm
It would them seem that the Dept. Of Education hasn't been a very effective way to prevent this.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2632 on: March 07, 2017, 07:38:44 AM »
Apparently in 2014 42% of Americans believed that God created humans in the last 10,000 years and 19% considered that humans had evolved without God's "guiding hand".  That 42% are pretty much the definition of dark ages thinking.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/170822/believe-creationist-view-human-origins.aspx
People believe all sorts of crazy things. Many people on the planet believe that they'll go to a firey pit for all eternity if they draw a picture of the bearded profit of their sky fairy. I guess mondern society still has a lot of progressing to do.
I'd quite like it if the US education system didn't set out to indoctrinate kids in any of those beliefs.
I don't think that there is much danger of indoctrination of those beliefs being set as an educational standard in the U.S. in the foreseeable future.
You don't need to set it as an educational standard when enough schools/states already have it as a standard. 
As an example: http://www.nea.org/home/39060.htm
It would them seem that the Dept. Of Education hasn't been a very effective way to prevent this.

Umm, no. You don't understand the role of the Dept. of Ed.

https://www2.ed.gov/about/overview/fed/role.html

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2633 on: March 07, 2017, 08:09:19 AM »


 It would them seem that the Dept. Of Education hasn't been a very effective way to prevent this.
Umm, no. You don't understand the role of the Dept. of Ed.

https://www2.ed.gov/about/overview/fed/role.html

From the Dept of Ed webpage.  Essentially, what's being cut is the emergency response system for those who are not being served by the states. In other words: for the children 'left behind':

Quote
Although ED's share of total education funding in the U.S. is relatively small, ED works hard to get a big bang for its taxpayer-provided bucks by targeting its funds where they can do the most good. This targeting reflects the historical development of the Federal role in education as a kind of "emergency response system," a means of filling gaps in State and local support for education when critical national needs arise.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2634 on: March 07, 2017, 08:14:00 AM »


 It would them seem that the Dept. Of Education hasn't been a very effective way to prevent this.
Umm, no. You don't understand the role of the Dept. of Ed.

https://www2.ed.gov/about/overview/fed/role.html

From the Dept of Ed webpage.  Essentially, what's being cut is the emergency response system for those who are not being served by the states. In other words: for the children 'left behind':

Quote
Although ED's share of total education funding in the U.S. is relatively small, ED works hard to get a big bang for its taxpayer-provided bucks by targeting its funds where they can do the most good. This targeting reflects the historical development of the Federal role in education as a kind of "emergency response system," a means of filling gaps in State and local support for education when critical national needs arise.
My point eaxctly. So we can agree , as I stated, that if the Dept. Of Ed. Were gutted, it would not throw the USA into the dark ages of sharia law/creationist education.
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2635 on: March 07, 2017, 08:18:37 AM »


 It would them seem that the Dept. Of Education hasn't been a very effective way to prevent this.
Umm, no. You don't understand the role of the Dept. of Ed.

https://www2.ed.gov/about/overview/fed/role.html

From the Dept of Ed webpage.  Essentially, what's being cut is the emergency response system for those who are not being served by the states. In other words: for the children 'left behind':

Quote
Although ED's share of total education funding in the U.S. is relatively small, ED works hard to get a big bang for its taxpayer-provided bucks by targeting its funds where they can do the most good. This targeting reflects the historical development of the Federal role in education as a kind of "emergency response system," a means of filling gaps in State and local support for education when critical national needs arise.
My point eaxctly. So we can agree , as I stated, that if the Dept. Of Ed. Were gutted, it would not throw the USA into the dark ages of sharia law/creationist education.
The United States is already in those dark ages as respects creationism.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2636 on: March 07, 2017, 08:22:51 AM »
So you are sayo


 It would them seem that the Dept. Of Education hasn't been a very effective way to prevent this.
Umm, no. You don't understand the role of the Dept. of Ed.

https://www2.ed.gov/about/overview/fed/role.html

From the Dept of Ed webpage.  Essentially, what's being cut is the emergency response system for those who are not being served by the states. In other words: for the children 'left behind':

Quote
Although ED's share of total education funding in the U.S. is relatively small, ED works hard to get a big bang for its taxpayer-provided bucks by targeting its funds where they can do the most good. This targeting reflects the historical development of the Federal role in education as a kind of "emergency response system," a means of filling gaps in State and local support for education when critical national needs arise.
My point eaxctly. So we can agree , as I stated, that if the Dept. Of Ed. Were gutted, it would not throw the USA into the dark ages of sharia law/creationist education.

So you are saying who cares about the marginalized kids the dept of ed is focused on...
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2637 on: March 07, 2017, 08:29:37 AM »
I specifically said this was a bad idea.  If you had read my comments, you would know this. I merely pointed out that there was much hyperbolic arm flailing about how fucked we are, and that the issues people stated they were most concerned about were not addressed by the dept. Of ed. Anyway....
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2638 on: March 07, 2017, 08:38:02 AM »

Snip!


Sweet Jesus, we are all so fucked.
Wow.. Hyperbole, much?

No... not hyperbole. I reckon if you are going to eliminate your Department of Eduction and the body charged with protecting your environment from the worst excesses of the market system then it really shows what you (don't) value.

Can't think of a more bone headed idea than stating to your population that "we don't think it's important that there is an oversight body which looks at setting appropriate education standards for your children. Or giving the green light to every oil company out there to frack for oil in your farmlands and tell them "not to worry, there's no consequence because we neutered the people who will prosecute you for poisoning the water table".

What's going to happen? Will Trump be writing the education curriculum and will children be taught alternative facts? How will you know if your air is safe to breathe and your water is safe to drink? Who will monitor that in the absence of the EPA? Please do not say the corporations will self-regulate.
Like I said; hysterical claims. None of the above are particularly great ideas, but turning control of education to the states is not going automatically to fuck everyone and instantly throw the country back into the dark ages. These bills are still in committee and without Democrat support wont make it past a fillibuster, so the forestated hyperbolic fucking is even more ridiculous to cry about, at this time.

...you're calling 'hysterical claims' because you don't think the bills will get past committee?  Are we only supposed to get worried about political movements once they're past the point of no return?

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2639 on: March 07, 2017, 08:42:25 AM »
...you're calling 'hysterical claims' because you don't think the bills will get past committee?  Are we only supposed to get worried about political movements once they're past the point of no return?

This was a key Republican talking point all through campaign season.  It goes like this:  "Donald Trump is clearly insane, but don't worry about making him the President because other people in the government will keep him from doing anything crazy."

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2640 on: March 07, 2017, 08:42:35 AM »
I specifically said this was a bad idea.  If you had read my comments, you would know this. I merely pointed out that there was much hyperbolic arm flailing about how fucked we are, and that the issues people stated they were most concerned about were not addressed by the dept. Of ed. Anyway....

No we are not ALL fucked. But some are. Doing away with the Dept. of Ed. is not going to help anyone, but it will hurt some. Namely poor people. But hey maybe they can move to Texas and learn about the history of the invisible spaghetti monster in the sky.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2641 on: March 07, 2017, 08:50:17 AM »
I think it's about time that all progressive/liberal folks take the conservative view and just put everything on the states (education, health care, taxes etc).

The conservative states receive more in federal funding than the progressive ones. The dumb states get fucked, seems fair to me.

If you happen to live in a dumb state the progressive stance can be to utilize your mobility rights and move to a smart state.

Yeah, I know poor people can't move that easily but I think in the long run it will be better for the republic.

It's too hard to convince people that their policies aren't good. So let them have as close to full autonomy as possible and let's see the results. Here is a list of states by the % of budget they receive from the feds. Let's take it away and see what happens.

•Mississippi, 42.9% federal aid as percentage of general revenue.
•Louisiana, 41.9%
•Tennessee, 39.5%
•South Dakota, 39.0%
•Missouri, 38.2%
•Montana, 37.4%
•Georgia, 37.3%
•New Mexico, 36.6%

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2642 on: March 07, 2017, 08:54:56 AM »
Quote

...you're calling 'hysterical claims' because you don't think the bills will get past committee?  Are we only supposed to get worried about political movements once they're past the point of no return?
While I think worry is a strong word, I  would not suggest one not be concerned about proposed bills. I  have not suggested such a thing, to be sure.

What I  did suggest is that one should not resort to hysterical appeal to hyperbole; it does not help the people who would be hurt by this proposed legislation and it does not help propose better legislation. It is merely a cheap dopamine spike for the people who write these things.
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2643 on: March 07, 2017, 08:59:21 AM »
I think it's about time that all progressive/liberal folks take the conservative view and just put everything on the states (education, health care, taxes etc).

The conservative states receive more in federal funding than the progressive ones. The dumb states get fucked, seems fair to me.

If you happen to live in a dumb state the progressive stance can be to utilize your mobility rights and move to a smart state.

Yeah, I know poor people can't move that easily but I think in the long run it will be better for the republic.

It's too hard to convince people that their policies aren't good. So let them have as close to full autonomy as possible and let's see the results. Here is a list of states by the % of budget they receive from the feds. Let's take it away and see what happens.

•Mississippi, 42.9% federal aid as percentage of general revenue.
•Louisiana, 41.9%
•Tennessee, 39.5%
•South Dakota, 39.0%
•Missouri, 38.2%
•Montana, 37.4%
•Georgia, 37.3%
•New Mexico, 36.6%
I think that helping poor people is worth the spending, in a general sense, and the republic is stronger for it. Just because poor people win elections occasionally is no reason to let massive portions of the population, with the fewest means to take care of themselves, wither and die.

Of course, I'm a pretty liberal person that way.
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

KBecks

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2644 on: March 07, 2017, 10:00:51 AM »
I specifically said this was a bad idea.  If you had read my comments, you would know this. I merely pointed out that there was much hyperbolic arm flailing about how fucked we are, and that the issues people stated they were most concerned about were not addressed by the dept. Of ed. Anyway....

No we are not ALL fucked. But some are. Doing away with the Dept. of Ed. is not going to help anyone, but it will hurt some. Namely poor people. But hey maybe they can move to Texas and learn about the history of the invisible spaghetti monster in the sky.

Listen, the poor schools are already sucking under Federal oversight.  Some of these schools seriously can hardly get any worse.  Why not give people a chance locally to see if they can do better?   It's the local parents who give a damn about their kids achievement.   Let them have a voucher and have some freaking options rather than a city school that is practically training for a future in jail.

If the schools were working, I might support Federal involvement, but they're a miserable failure.  There's no reason NOT to change.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2645 on: March 07, 2017, 10:47:25 AM »
Listen, the poor schools are already sucking under Federal oversight.  Some of these schools seriously can hardly get any worse.  Why not give people a chance locally to see if they can do better?   It's the local parents who give a damn about their kids achievement.   Let them have a voucher and have some freaking options rather than a city school that is practically training for a future in jail.

If the schools were working, I might support Federal involvement, but they're a miserable failure.  There's no reason NOT to change.

The evidence (which is just beginning to trickle in, as voucher programs haven't been around all that long and only exist in a few places) seems to indicate that they harm students, rather than help them:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/23/upshot/dismal-results-from-vouchers-surprise-researchers-as-devos-era-begins.html

Obviously there's plenty of room for more research, but I'd hardly say there's a compelling case for anything more than continuing to watch the results from existing programs. Expanding voucher programs without solid evidence that they actually help would be foolish.

-W

bacchi

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2646 on: March 07, 2017, 10:47:53 AM »
I specifically said this was a bad idea.  If you had read my comments, you would know this. I merely pointed out that there was much hyperbolic arm flailing about how fucked we are, and that the issues people stated they were most concerned about were not addressed by the dept. Of ed. Anyway....

No we are not ALL fucked. But some are. Doing away with the Dept. of Ed. is not going to help anyone, but it will hurt some. Namely poor people. But hey maybe they can move to Texas and learn about the history of the invisible spaghetti monster in the sky.

Listen, the poor schools are already sucking under Federal oversight.  Some of these schools seriously can hardly get any worse.  Why not give people a chance locally to see if they can do better?   It's the local parents who give a damn about their kids achievement.   Let them have a voucher and have some freaking options rather than a city school that is practically training for a future in jail.

If the schools were working, I might support Federal involvement, but they're a miserable failure.  There's no reason NOT to change.

If vouchers work, they would've worked in Indiana or Louisiana or Ohio. They didn't. The voucher programs in those states are failures.

Vouchers are not a panacea.

KBecks

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2647 on: March 07, 2017, 11:19:03 AM »
Maybe those states can pick up some best practices from Milwaukee
http://archive.jsonline.com/news/education/vouchers-charters-outscore-public-schools-in-latest-data-b99688846z1-372279021.html

Some vouchers fail, but at least there's a chance of doing good.  If the Feds monopolize education, it's hopeless. 

BeginnerStache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2648 on: March 07, 2017, 11:39:03 AM »
Maybe those states can pick up some best practices from Milwaukee
http://archive.jsonline.com/news/education/vouchers-charters-outscore-public-schools-in-latest-data-b99688846z1-372279021.html

Some vouchers fail, but at least there's a chance of doing good. [/b] If the Feds monopolize education, it's hopeless.

And a chance of failing. So what's the net gain? It's a fucking crap shoot. That isn't a solution. Schools can't just pick up best practices. Stanford has written quite a bit of research on the difficulties of trying to replicate the better charter schools and why underperforming charter schools still exist and will continue to exist.


waltworks

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2649 on: March 07, 2017, 11:56:21 AM »
Maybe those states can pick up some best practices from Milwaukee
http://archive.jsonline.com/news/education/vouchers-charters-outscore-public-schools-in-latest-data-b99688846z1-372279021.html

Some vouchers fail, but at least there's a chance of doing good.  If the Feds monopolize education, it's hopeless.

The point isn't that some of them can work. That's just like some stock-pickers can beat the market just by chance.

Overall, the numbers are mixed to negative. That's not to say it can't work, but it does seem that the Feds (NCLB and other similar standards stuff isn't popular but it probably works to an extent) are winning right now.

-W