Author Topic: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?  (Read 159245 times)

Gin1984

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2350 on: February 24, 2017, 02:29:39 PM »
What do you do when the president violates the first amendment so flagrantly?

It's a dick move, but I don't think it's unconstitutional.

If he were to shut down CNN, that would be a violation of the 1st Amendment. Refusing them access to the white house is not the same as shuttering the company or suppressing their reporting.  A judge might disagree with me, though.

The request to the FBI to dispute the (true) stories on CNN is more illegal, in my opinion.
I doubt it.  One of the first Ladies used to only allow female reporters in to report on her and no one saw a problem with that.

Johnez

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2351 on: February 24, 2017, 02:43:19 PM »
If the GOP implements what is in this article, I'd be surprised if there was not a shellacking. 

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/house-republicans-obamacare-repeal-package-235343

tl;dr:

1) The much-maligned Cadillac Tax is back in some fashion for employer plans.
2) The new penalty is a 30% premium increase for lapsed coverage. Doesn't seem like much of a penalty (4 months w/o coverage and re-enrolling is better than maintaining insurance all along).
3) Bring back health pools for those with pre-existing conditions. Good idea -- those worked SO well pre-ACA.

#1 won't fly unless they can mask it as a tax cut.

They are still trying to figure out what will fly and what won't. It's hilarious how "everybody hates Obamacare" now turns into, "it's hard to get rid of Obamacare because people like so many parts of it."

The 30% penalty is an interesting work around to the hated mandate. The only problem I see there is, it incentives people who've lapsed to keep going without coverage. If they provide a very cheap catastrophic insurance plan to hold people over, might work.

accolay

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2352 on: February 24, 2017, 03:40:46 PM »
I doubt it.  One of the first Ladies used to only allow female reporters in to report on her and no one saw a problem with that.

The First Lady isn't the most powerful elected official of the free world.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2353 on: February 24, 2017, 06:58:04 PM »
I doubt it.  One of the first Ladies used to only allow female reporters in to report on her and no one saw a problem with that.

The First Lady isn't the most powerful elected official of the free world.
True, but the POTUS is held to many of the same laws. I mostly agree with Sol - while a dick move, it's hardly a violation of anyone's constitutional rights. I would be much more concerned if all reporters were blocked out of press conferences, or if only 1 or 2 specific sources become the only sources of news from the White House. Though this may be the direction we are heading.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2354 on: February 24, 2017, 06:58:23 PM »
So now it seems that States should be able to discriminate against transgendered people as much as they want without federal meddling but potentially can't be trusted with marijuana policy? Nope, no forcing of religious morals happening here.

Retire-Canada

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2355 on: February 24, 2017, 07:29:59 PM »
Whatever happens or does not happen it's now Trumpcare. Please use the correct terminology. ;)

dragoncar

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2356 on: February 24, 2017, 07:50:54 PM »
I think there's a much better case for unconstitutionality because, as usual, the trump administration is not particularly discreet about showing that it's a retributive act.

bacchi

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2357 on: February 24, 2017, 10:20:51 PM »
So now it seems that States should be able to discriminate against transgendered people as much as they want without federal meddling but potentially can't be trusted with marijuana policy? Nope, no forcing of religious morals happening here.

No surprise there. Trump didn't seem to care but Pence thinks that Reefer Madness is a documentary.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2358 on: February 24, 2017, 10:23:27 PM »
I think there's a much better case for unconstitutionality because, as usual, the trump administration is not particularly discreet about showing that it's a retributive act.
Does intent matter for denying constitutional rights? "I really thought it would be better for the country if these people didn't vote." Is not a defense to deny people their constitutional right to vote, for instance.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2359 on: February 24, 2017, 11:43:43 PM »
I think there's a much better case for unconstitutionality because, as usual, the trump administration is not particularly discreet about showing that it's a retributive act.
Does intent matter for denying constitutional rights? "I really thought it would be better for the country if these people didn't vote." Is not a defense to deny people their constitutional right to vote, for instance.
That seems to be Trump's strategy - wrap himself tighter in the US Flag whenever given 'questioning' feedback to his Orders.  It's not necessarily like the branches of government don't like the idea of protecting the country from terrorists or silencing misinformation (or riding on the coat-tails of a popular charismatic President), they just don't understand how he can possibly stand for blatant religious profiling and silencing journalists (while being much less popular than he believes).

As history has shown, GW Bush wasn't impeached or curtailed in any way although no weapons of mass destruction were found, so I'm less surprised now, ever though we are struggling through historical downfall, that there is little imposition on Trump's overreach.  If we truly were a nation of high moral standing, this would have been enough a week ago.  Alas, we are apparently a nation of putting ourselves first, and Trump is riding that trope as long as it will have him.  So far this stance has been nothing but beneficial.  I guess we'll just have to wait and see if season 2 (well, only month 2 in this case) is any better than season 1 :)
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2360 on: February 25, 2017, 12:00:46 AM »
I think there's a much better case for unconstitutionality because, as usual, the trump administration is not particularly discreet about showing that it's a retributive act.
Does intent matter for denying constitutional rights? "I really thought it would be better for the country if these people didn't vote." Is not a defense to deny people their constitutional right to vote, for instance.
That seems to be Trump's strategy - wrap himself tighter in the US Flag whenever given 'questioning' feedback to his Orders.  It's not necessarily like the branches of government don't like the idea of protecting the country from terrorists or silencing misinformation (or riding on the coat-tails of a popular charismatic President), they just don't understand how he can possibly stand for blatant religious profiling and silencing journalists (while being much less popular than he believes).

As history has shown, GW Bush wasn't impeached or curtailed in any way although no weapons of mass destruction were found, so I'm less surprised now, ever though we are struggling through historical downfall, that there is little imposition on Trump's overreach.  If we truly were a nation of high moral standing, this would have been enough a week ago.  Alas, we are apparently a nation of putting ourselves first, and Trump is riding that trope as long as it will have him.  So far this stance has been nothing but beneficial.  I guess we'll just have to wait and see if season 2 (well, only month 2 in this case) is any better than season 1 :)
I guess I still have faith in our checks and balances. The courts slapped Obama's hands repeatedly when he overstepped. They have done the same to Trump. It's not perfect, but it's not as if everyone is running around unchecked completely.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2361 on: February 25, 2017, 12:19:45 AM »
I guess I still have faith in our checks and balances. The courts slapped Obama's hands repeatedly when he overstepped. They have done the same to Trump. It's not perfect, but it's not as if everyone is running around unchecked completely.

As soon as I hear anything like 'Obama was x' or 'Hillary' whatever nonsensical fictional distraction at this point, I feel pretty vindicated that I made a stronger, more logical argument.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2362 on: February 25, 2017, 12:23:35 AM »
I guess I still have faith in our checks and balances. The courts slapped Obama's hands repeatedly when he overstepped. They have done the same to Trump. It's not perfect, but it's not as if everyone is running around unchecked completely.

As soon as I hear anything like 'Obama was x' or 'Hillary' whatever nonsensical fictional distraction at this point, I feel pretty vindicated that I made a stronger, more logical argument.
Your argument was predicated upon "Bush did X"....
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EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2363 on: February 25, 2017, 07:29:58 AM »
I guess I still have faith in our checks and balances. The courts slapped Obama's hands repeatedly when he overstepped. They have done the same to Trump. It's not perfect, but it's not as if everyone is running around unchecked completely.

As soon as I hear anything like 'Obama was x' or 'Hillary' whatever nonsensical fictional distraction at this point, I feel pretty vindicated that I made a stronger, more logical argument.
Your argument was predicated upon "Bush did X"....
Are you totally tone def to my point?  I guess, to spell it out, Bush invading Iraq is common knowledge.  This whole 'but Obama got his hands slapped by the courts so he's just as bad as Trump' is opinion, and not really pertinent to the discussion.  It's a fun game Trump supporters like to play.  Sometimes they play it well like, 'Obama also stopped refugees from coming to the US (which required a little bit of research to understand why they were comparing apples to oranges).  But it's gotten worn out, since Trump became President and is now demonstrably incompetent and damaging.  He has certainly not shown a respect for the checks and balances imposed on his branch of government.  So let's focus on today for a while and not some selective memory of the past, since talking about Obama being just as bad as Trump has repeatedly proven to be 'alternative facts'.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2017, 07:34:08 AM by EscapeVelocity2020 »
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Working Mama

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2364 on: February 25, 2017, 07:50:13 AM »
Whatever happens or does not happen it's now Trumpcare. Please use the correct terminology. ;)

Come on over to BreitWhitebart and post:

Still waiting for repeal of Obamacare.  When we getting Trumpcare?

Let's educate the Trumpeteers!
« Last Edit: February 25, 2017, 07:54:47 AM by Working Mama »

Working Mama

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2365 on: February 25, 2017, 07:57:27 AM »
Some news outlets are posting that the deportation of illegals is going to have a large negative impact on our economy, however the numbers are over ten years.

Does anyone understand how it will play out in the short term, say the next year or two?


accolay

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2366 on: February 25, 2017, 09:15:27 AM »
Does anyone understand how it will play out in the short term, say the next year or two?

Well, if they successfully deport that many illegals, some farmers are saying their crops will rot in the fields. Some farmers are buying equipment for automation.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/01/05/trumps-deportation-vow-spurs-california-farmers-into-action.html
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/02/california-farmers-surprised-trump-anti-immigrant
The construction and restaurant industries will have problems too. Prices will go up- they will have to pay an actual wage for the work if Americans will need to do the work.

Oh the irony of farmers voting for Trump thinking that his positions were just talk, now concerned that he's actually going to deport illegals.

But don't worry-
Quote
Iím confident that he can grasp the magnitude and the anxiety of whatís happening now
Trump's a business man who will understand the problem. I can't even say that with a straight face.

jim555

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2367 on: February 25, 2017, 09:25:46 AM »
Border patrol can set up stop points within 100 miles of the border and ask about your citizenship.  They can ask but no one has an obligation to answer.  They are hoping people are ignorant of their rights.  I am wondering how they will catch the millions of people they want to deport.

accolay

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2368 on: February 25, 2017, 09:34:46 AM »
I am wondering how they will catch the millions of people they want to deport.

Easy- you round up enough Mexican looking people and some of them are bound to be illegals.

waltworks

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2369 on: February 25, 2017, 09:51:34 AM »
*If* mass deportation happened, there are some obvious effects:
-Construction costs increase dramatically almost everywhere in the US.
-Housing values/rents at the low end collapse in many areas as lots of people move out.
-Food prices rise dramatically, especially for prepared foods.
-Lots of domestically grown produce (and some meat like chicken that requires manual processing) becomes extremely expensive/uncompetitive with Mexican/Central American/Chilean imports.
-Jobs at the very low end pay a lot more, prices for services like housekeeping, landscaping, etc rise dramatically.

I guess the obvious immediate effect would be a lot of inflation (for basic goods and services), combined with total collapse of housing markets (both purchase and rental prices) at the low end in some places. The obvious winners would be low-skill unemployed people who can keep their act together enough to hold down a job/work hard - they'd make more money and also have cheaper housing available. Everyone else probably loses in one way or another.

-W
« Last Edit: February 25, 2017, 09:55:59 AM by waltworks »

sol

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2370 on: February 25, 2017, 10:07:51 AM »
The obvious winners would be low-skill unemployed people who can keep their act together enough to hold down a job/work hard - they'd make more money and also have cheaper housing available. Everyone else probably loses in one way or another.

This is exactly why I don't think it will happen.  Republicans won't pass anything that doesn't disproportionately help rich people.

All of Trump's rhetoric about saving jobs is just smokescreen designed to scoop up working class votes.  He doesn't actually care about working class people. He's a billionaire lifestyle brand business mogul, he couldn't care less about poor people.  He has spent his entire career stealing from workers, not helping them.

The administration's focus on immigration is just a distraction from tax cuts for the wealthy and taking away health insurance.  Watch carefully what bills actually get passed, despite all of the noise.

dragoncar

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2371 on: February 25, 2017, 11:29:16 AM »
I think there's a much better case for unconstitutionality because, as usual, the trump administration is not particularly discreet about showing that it's a retributive act.
Does intent matter for denying constitutional rights? "I really thought it would be better for the country if these people didn't vote." Is not a defense to deny people their constitutional right to vote, for instance.

Yes, compare: "I arrested these people for yelling 'trump sucks'" vs. "I arrested these people for yelling 'fire' in a crowded building"

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2372 on: February 25, 2017, 11:50:18 AM »
I think there's a much better case for unconstitutionality because, as usual, the trump administration is not particularly discreet about showing that it's a retributive act.
Does intent matter for denying constitutional rights? "I really thought it would be better for the country if these people didn't vote." Is not a defense to deny people their constitutional right to vote, for instance.

Yes, compare: "I arrested these people for yelling 'trump sucks'" vs. "I arrested these people for yelling 'fire' in a crowded building"
But those are separate actions. I see your point, but that distinction in intent in your example is on the person committing the action, not on the person denying them their right.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2373 on: February 25, 2017, 12:00:13 PM »
Are you totally tone def to my point?  I guess, to spell it out, Bush invading Iraq is common knowledge.  This whole 'but Obama got his hands slapped by the courts so he's just as bad as Trump' is opinion, and not really pertinent to the discussion.  It's a fun game Trump supporters like to play.  Sometimes they play it well like, 'Obama also stopped refugees from coming to the US (which required a little bit of research to understand why they were comparing apples to oranges).  But it's gotten worn out, since Trump became President and is now demonstrably incompetent and damaging.  He has certainly not shown a respect for the checks and balances imposed on his branch of government.  So let's focus on today for a while and not some selective memory of the past, since talking about Obama being just as bad as Trump has repeatedly proven to be 'alternative facts'.
I guess I am deaf to your point . Perhaps you could be more clear? I have no idea why Bush was brought into the discussion; it was a throwaway that partisan attackers without a balanced view will use. The system of checks and balances that will curtail Trumps oversteps is the same system that curtailed Obama's oversteps. This is common knowledge. Checks and balances demonstrably works in our government. This was my point- it has worked in previous administrations who have attempted to side step the other branches of government, and as this is a recent example, I  see no argument this will change. In fact, it has already worked against the current administration.

I am clearly not a Trump supporter. I have never said Obama was worse than Trump. They are both terrible presidents, overall, for similar reasons, and differing reasons.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2374 on: February 25, 2017, 01:05:12 PM »
*If* mass deportation happened, there are some obvious effects:
-Construction costs increase dramatically almost everywhere in the US.
-Housing values/rents at the low end collapse in many areas as lots of people move out.
-Food prices rise dramatically, especially for prepared foods.
-Lots of domestically grown produce (and some meat like chicken that requires manual processing) becomes extremely expensive/uncompetitive with Mexican/Central American/Chilean imports.
-Jobs at the very low end pay a lot more, prices for services like housekeeping, landscaping, etc rise dramatically.

I guess the obvious immediate effect would be a lot of inflation (for basic goods and services), combined with total collapse of housing markets (both purchase and rental prices) at the low end in some places. The obvious winners would be low-skill unemployed people who can keep their act together enough to hold down a job/work hard - they'd make more money and also have cheaper housing available. Everyone else probably loses in one way or another.

-W

I think this is what they want. President Bannon wants to destroy the state. He said that, and he's working to do it.

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2375 on: February 25, 2017, 01:19:36 PM »
The obvious winners would be low-skill unemployed people who can keep their act together enough to hold down a job/work hard - they'd make more money and also have cheaper housing available. Everyone else probably loses in one way or another.

This is exactly why I don't think it will happen.  Republicans won't pass anything that doesn't disproportionately help rich people.

All of Trump's rhetoric about saving jobs is just smokescreen designed to scoop up working class votes.  He doesn't actually care about working class people. He's a billionaire lifestyle brand business mogul, he couldn't care less about poor people.  He has spent his entire career stealing from workers, not helping them.

The administration's focus on immigration is just a distraction from tax cuts for the wealthy and taking away health insurance.  Watch carefully what bills actually get passed, despite all of the noise.
I would personally support everyone paying more for everything if it meant the poorest people get a raise. I don't see rich people losing as a terribly bad thing, if it helps lower income people make more money. Also, as the raise the minimum wage studies show, I am not sure this would be the case anyway.

I don't see the democrats agreeing to such a plan because it would cut the profits of many of their corporate interests would not accept the cut in profits it would take to pay workers more. While both sides are paying lip service to the idea, neither actually wants it.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2017, 01:24:54 PM by Metric Mouse »
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2376 on: February 25, 2017, 03:03:42 PM »
I don't see the democrats agreeing to such a plan because it would cut the profits of many of their corporate interests would not accept the cut in profits it would take to pay workers more.

What an illogical statement. It's Republicans and not the Democrats who try to protect corporate profits regardless of who is harmed in the process. You have it exactly backwards.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2377 on: February 25, 2017, 03:44:55 PM »
I think there's a much better case for unconstitutionality because, as usual, the trump administration is not particularly discreet about showing that it's a retributive act.
Does intent matter for denying constitutional rights? "I really thought it would be better for the country if these people didn't vote." Is not a defense to deny people their constitutional right to vote, for instance.

Yes, compare: "I arrested these people for yelling 'trump sucks'" vs. "I arrested these people for yelling 'fire' in a crowded building"
But those are separate actions. I see your point, but that distinction in intent in your example is on the person committing the action, not on the person denying them their right.

No, the difference in constitutionality between those two examples is whether there was a compelling state interest in violating their rights. 

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2378 on: February 25, 2017, 04:14:38 PM »
I don't see the democrats agreeing to such a plan because it would cut the profits of many of their corporate interests would not accept the cut in profits it would take to pay workers more.

What an illogical statement. It's Republicans and not the Democrats who try to protect corporate profits regardless of who is harmed in the process. You have it exactly backwards.
I think this was covered in the ACA thread; the reason we don't have single payer is that Democrats are beholden to their corporate interests, who would not wish to see their profits drop. It was not because the ACA was a better plan than single payer for the American people.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2379 on: February 25, 2017, 04:17:33 PM »
I think there's a much better case for unconstitutionality because, as usual, the trump administration is not particularly discreet about showing that it's a retributive act.
Does intent matter for denying constitutional rights? "I really thought it would be better for the country if these people didn't vote." Is not a defense to deny people their constitutional right to vote, for instance.

Yes, compare: "I arrested these people for yelling 'trump sucks'" vs. "I arrested these people for yelling 'fire' in a crowded building"
But those are separate actions. I see your point, but that distinction in intent in your example is on the person committing the action, not on the person denying them their right.

No, the difference in constitutionality between those two examples is whether there was a compelling state interest in violating their rights.
Whereas a retrubitive act, as mentioned above, does not show compelling state interest. I now understand your arguement. Thank you for clarifying.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2380 on: February 25, 2017, 08:21:44 PM »
I don't see the democrats agreeing to such a plan because it would cut the profits of many of their corporate interests would not accept the cut in profits it would take to pay workers more.

What an illogical statement. It's Republicans and not the Democrats who try to protect corporate profits regardless of who is harmed in the process. You have it exactly backwards.
I think this was covered in the ACA thread; the reason we don't have single payer is that Democrats are beholden to their corporate interests, who would not wish to see their profits drop. It was not because the ACA was a better plan than single payer for the American people.

That's backwards thinking, every Republican Senator in the 2009 vote was against any kind of health care for all people. ACA was a compromise effort to extend healthcare to as many as possible, and overcome the filibuster efforts of the Republican Senators. There were at most 2 or 3 Senate Democrats/Independents that stood in the way of the public option within ACA.  All 40 Republican Senators back in 2009 stood in the way of anything happening at all.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2381 on: February 25, 2017, 09:11:44 PM »
Revisionist history, ftw. No Republicans voted for the ACA*. The dems had super majority, and could have passed anything they wanted, without worrying about filibusters, and they did. They wanted to give their corporate interests in the insurance lobby a huge government handout, and did so.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2382 on: February 25, 2017, 11:29:39 PM »
Revisionist history, ftw. No Republicans voted for the ACA*. The dems had super majority, and could have passed anything they wanted, without worrying about filibusters, and they did. They wanted to give their corporate interests in the insurance lobby a huge government handout, and did so.

That's not accurate. They couldn't pass a public option because Ben Nelson refused to vote for one.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2383 on: February 25, 2017, 11:32:44 PM »
Revisionist history, ftw. No Republicans voted for the ACA*. The dems had super majority, and could have passed anything they wanted, without worrying about filibusters, and they did. They wanted to give their corporate interests in the insurance lobby a huge government handout, and did so.

Where are you getting this version of history from?  Because that's not what happened.

You may recall that Democrats TRIED to pass single payer health care, back in the 90s, with Hillary Clinton.  Republicans tore it apart.  It has always been Republicans who opposed health care reform of any kind.  It has always been Republicans who solely support their corporate interests at the expense of the working class. 

I'm getting pretty sick and tired of you blaming Democrats for everything.  This is classic Donald Trump behavior, and you should know better.  Are you a 70 year old fat man with a poor diet?  Attack your opponents health and stamina!  Were you born in to a wealthy family?  Campaign on behalf of blue collar workers!  Are you a five time draft dodger?  "No one is better on the military than me!"  Do you hate the American health care system?  Blame the Democrats!

It's disgusting and disingenuous and deceitful and dishonest and it discredits everything else you have to say.  Just stop it.

Democrats have been trying to fix health care since forever.  They passed medicare and medicaid.  They tried to pass single payer.  Due to Republican opposition, they had to settle for a neutered version of the ACA.  You're blaming the wrong party, plain and simple, and you do it SO consistently and SO blatantly dishonestly that I'm struggling to give you the benefit of the doubt (ignorance) instead of taking you at face value (malice).


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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2384 on: February 26, 2017, 01:57:20 AM »
Since the wannabe great dictator is missing the White House Correspondents' Dinner, anyone else wanting to see Alec Baldwin and Melissa McCarthy reprise their roles? That or a stand-in orange dummy.

I suppose Trumpie couldn't ban more than half of the guests at the dinner so might as well miss it.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2385 on: February 26, 2017, 03:30:24 AM »
Since the wannabe great dictator is missing the White House Correspondents' Dinner, anyone else wanting to see Alec Baldwin and Melissa McCarthy reprise their roles? That or a stand-in orange dummy.

I suppose Trumpie couldn't ban more than half of the guests at the dinner so might as well miss it.
Trump is a coward. But I think that's been known for a long time, right?
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2386 on: February 26, 2017, 03:37:09 AM »
Revisionist history, ftw. No Republicans voted for the ACA*. The dems had super majority, and could have passed anything they wanted, without worrying about filibusters, and they did. They wanted to give their corporate interests in the insurance lobby a huge government handout, and did so.

Where are you getting this version of history from?  Because that's not what happened.

You may recall that Democrats TRIED to pass single payer health care, back in the 90s, with Hillary Clinton.  Republicans tore it apart.  It has always been Republicans who opposed health care reform of any kind.  It has always been Republicans who solely support their corporate interests at the expense of the working class. 

I'm getting pretty sick and tired of you blaming Democrats for everything.  This is classic Donald Trump behavior, and you should know better.  Are you a 70 year old fat man with a poor diet?  Attack your opponents health and stamina!  Were you born in to a wealthy family?  Campaign on behalf of blue collar workers!  Are you a five time draft dodger?  "No one is better on the military than me!"  Do you hate the American health care system?  Blame the Democrats!

It's disgusting and disingenuous and deceitful and dishonest and it discredits everything else you have to say.  Just stop it.

Democrats have been trying to fix health care since forever.  They passed medicare and medicaid.  They tried to pass single payer.  Due to Republican opposition, they had to settle for a neutered version of the ACA.  You're blaming the wrong party, plain and simple, and you do it SO consistently and SO blatantly dishonestly that I'm struggling to give you the benefit of the doubt (ignorance) instead of taking you at face value (malice).
Calm down. No need for personal attacks because if a disagreement.

 Of course republicans refused health care reform. That's exactly the point, Democrats had all the votes for anything they could dream up, without any need for Republicans to support it. I'm sorry you're tired of me blaming democrats, when they stop screwing up as bad as the Republicans, I will dance in the street and be happy to give them credit. The fact that Republicans are terrible doesn't let Democrats off the hook for the mess we got instead.  Or are you suggesting the Republicans are to thank for the ACA, sinces it was originally their plan and they wouldn't have allowed anything else to go through? You can't say that Democrats passed the ACA against all Republican opposition, but were somehow stymied by those blasted Republicans when it came to single payer.  It is untrue, and completely partisian.

Now to say why would be a matter of debate.  In the ACA thread you clearly claimed the dems didn't pass single payer because of the insurance lobby. Now you say it was republicans, who all voted against the bill but still couldn't stop it, are still to blame?

Democrats may have been trying to fix health care forever. I'm sick and tired of them fucking it up and failing so god damned always. It's fine if you wish to blame the other party for their failings, but they had a super majority in congress and a progressive president and had their chance to truly improve health care in this country, despite any Republican disagreement . Instead they gave the insurance lobby huge subsidies, the people double digit premium increases and little improvement in Healthcare  outcomes for their trouble. Forgive me that I'm not cutting the corrupt bastards any slack.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2387 on: February 26, 2017, 03:56:37 AM »
Since the wannabe great dictator is missing the White House Correspondents' Dinner, anyone else wanting to see Alec Baldwin and Melissa McCarthy reprise their roles? That or a stand-in orange dummy.

I suppose Trumpie couldn't ban more than half of the guests at the dinner so might as well miss it.
Trump is a coward. But I think that's been known for a long time, right?

Yes, he has many minions to act/cover/interpret for him...but WHO will turn up to the dinner as guest of (dis)honour?

Enquiring minds want to know :-)

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2388 on: February 26, 2017, 05:01:01 AM »
Democrats may have been trying to fix health care forever. I'm sick and tired of them fucking it up and failing so god damned always. It's fine if you wish to blame the other party for their failings, but they had a super majority in congress and a progressive president and had their chance to truly improve health care in this country, despite any Republican disagreement . Instead they gave the insurance lobby huge subsidies, the people double digit premium increases and little improvement in Healthcare  outcomes for their trouble. Forgive me that I'm not cutting the corrupt bastards any slack.
BIB: this is no doubt true for some but it is not true for all.  Can it be acknowledged that the ACA has disbenefits for some (usually those who already had good health, good health care and the money to pay for it) and benefits for others (usually those without good health, good health care or the money to pay for it)?  Saying that something is all bad just because it's not all good, or because it's not good for your particular demographic, doesn't take the discussion anywhere.
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Kris

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2389 on: February 26, 2017, 07:04:39 AM »
Since the wannabe great dictator is missing the White House Correspondents' Dinner, anyone else wanting to see Alec Baldwin and Melissa McCarthy reprise their roles? That or a stand-in orange dummy.

I suppose Trumpie couldn't ban more than half of the guests at the dinner so might as well miss it.
Trump is a coward. But I think that's been known for a long time, right?

Yes, he has many minions to act/cover/interpret for him...but WHO will turn up to the dinner as guest of (dis)honour?

Enquiring minds want to know :-)

I'm hoping they set up an empty chair and roast that, a la Clint Eastwood.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2390 on: February 26, 2017, 07:16:34 AM »
Revisionist history, ftw. No Republicans voted for the ACA*. The dems had super majority, and could have passed anything they wanted, without worrying about filibusters, and they did. They wanted to give their corporate interests in the insurance lobby a huge government handout, and did so.

Where are you getting this version of history from?  Because that's not what happened.

You may recall that Democrats TRIED to pass single payer health care, back in the 90s, with Hillary Clinton.  Republicans tore it apart.  It has always been Republicans who opposed health care reform of any kind.  It has always been Republicans who solely support their corporate interests at the expense of the working class. 

I'm getting pretty sick and tired of you blaming Democrats for everything.  This is classic Donald Trump behavior, and you should know better.  Are you a 70 year old fat man with a poor diet?  Attack your opponents health and stamina!  Were you born in to a wealthy family?  Campaign on behalf of blue collar workers!  Are you a five time draft dodger?  "No one is better on the military than me!"  Do you hate the American health care system?  Blame the Democrats!

It's disgusting and disingenuous and deceitful and dishonest and it discredits everything else you have to say.  Just stop it.

Democrats have been trying to fix health care since forever.  They passed medicare and medicaid.  They tried to pass single payer.  Due to Republican opposition, they had to settle for a neutered version of the ACA.  You're blaming the wrong party, plain and simple, and you do it SO consistently and SO blatantly dishonestly that I'm struggling to give you the benefit of the doubt (ignorance) instead of taking you at face value (malice).
Calm down. No need for personal attacks because if a disagreement.

 Of course republicans refused health care reform. That's exactly the point, Democrats had all the votes for anything they could dream up, without any need for Republicans to support it. I'm sorry you're tired of me blaming democrats, when they stop screwing up as bad as the Republicans, I will dance in the street and be happy to give them credit. The fact that Republicans are terrible doesn't let Democrats off the hook for the mess we got instead.  Or are you suggesting the Republicans are to thank for the ACA, sinces it was originally their plan and they wouldn't have allowed anything else to go through? You can't say that Democrats passed the ACA against all Republican opposition, but were somehow stymied by those blasted Republicans when it came to single payer.  It is untrue, and completely partisian.

Now to say why would be a matter of debate.  In the ACA thread you clearly claimed the dems didn't pass single payer because of the insurance lobby. Now you say it was republicans, who all voted against the bill but still couldn't stop it, are still to blame?

Democrats may have been trying to fix health care forever. I'm sick and tired of them fucking it up and failing so god damned always. It's fine if you wish to blame the other party for their failings, but they had a super majority in congress and a progressive president and had their chance to truly improve health care in this country, despite any Republican disagreement . Instead they gave the insurance lobby huge subsidies, the people double digit premium increases and little improvement in Healthcare  outcomes for their trouble. Forgive me that I'm not cutting the corrupt bastards any slack.

I'm going to quote Obama, who said don't let perfection be the enemy of good. You are stating that because everything isn't exactly perfect with ACA, it must be bad. I disagree and your thinking is really EXTREME, it's either a perfect health care solution or it's evil incarnate. Millions of people now have health insurance than before as a result of ACA. Yes a small portion of wealthier/healthier people who don't qualify for subsidies are worse off financially as a result, but the vast majority of people under ACA got subsidized care.

The solution is to expand those subsidies so there isn't such an extreme ending of subsidies at a certain MAGI point. GoCurryCracker has an excellent blog post on this subsidy / income comparison.
And the solution for Mustachians was to lower that MAGI if possible through 401K/tIRA/HSA to garner subsidies.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2391 on: February 26, 2017, 07:32:59 AM »

I'm going to quote Obama, who said don't let perfection be the enemy of good. ...

Just chiming in here to say that quote isn't attributable to Obama (though I believe he did use the phrase on several occasions).  Versions of it go back at least to the 17th century, and probably earlier. Citations matter.

FWIW, I still view the ACA overall as a sizable improvement over the system that existed circa 2007. Dems made some mistakes and Republicans slipped some poisoned pills into the bill.  Mostly it suffers from a now decade long attack campaign that has highlighted its faults, exaggerated (and sometimes completely lied about) its shortcomings, and has rarely been compared to what came before (i.e. practically never do we hear a discussion about 'this is where we are better of, nad this is where we have fallen short').\

It could either be tweaked periodically to be improved (though that's politically difficult for obvious reasons), or it could be used as a trail-run for a completely new and improved bill.  Unfortunatly we seem to be going down road #3... blow the whole damn thing up and learn nothing from it.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2392 on: February 26, 2017, 07:47:59 AM »
Sadly my views are changing.  I am starting to see the DNC/RNC as similar shades of brown.

Jimmy Dore's Show on youtube is pretty enlightening.  He commented that when Americans are riled up to pick on people that are less fortunate/advantaged than them, such as immigrants or refugees; the idea is to distract them from the theft of tax payer dollars, policies that mess with us etc...

One example, that shocked me, was that it cost the US military just shy of $4mln to keep an American solider in Afghanistan for a year.  Here's the info from TIME: "the CRS report says the cost of keeping a single American soldier there this year is an eye-watering $3.9 million."  We are spending huge sums.  And now...
Trump's general in Afghanistan needs a few thousand more troops to break the stalemate with the Taliban.  So this has been going on a long time, ... a few a more troops is going to change things? They really know how stupid we really are, with thoroughly lame logic as that. Read for yourselves here:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/09/us/politics/us-afghanistan-troops.html

So irrespective of party in power we are going to pour more money into a country, that we totally messed up in the 1980s, when we could have done things at least a little better.

Sigh...such a tremendously sad state of our country.


« Last Edit: February 26, 2017, 03:32:09 PM by Working Mama »

nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2393 on: February 26, 2017, 12:06:21 PM »

One example, that shocked me, was that it cost the US military just shy of $4mln to keep an American solider in Afghanistan for a year.  Here's the info from TIME: "the CRS report says the cost of keeping a single American soldier there this year is an eye-watering $3.9 million."  We are spending huge sums.  And now...

I hate "facts" like these. They have a kernel of truth, but lack context and are designed to get people riled up one way or another.  As I understand this particular metric, you take the total amount the military spends in one area and divide by the total number of combat soldiers and ... voila, $4MM/soldier.  It's both shocking and not particularly helpful.  It ignores all the infrastructure, contractors, and military support (lots of aircraft), and it doesn't scale particularly well - i.e. if you double the number of combat soldiers you don't double the cost (because much of the 'support' is already there).

Yes, we are spending an almost ludicrous sum on our armed forces during a time when our country is, historically speaking, pretty safe from external threats. We spend more than any other coutnry, and more than the next 8 countries combined (most of which are our allies).

Quote
So irrespective of party in power we are going to pour more money info a country that we totally messed up in the 1980s, when we could have done things at least a little better.
[/quote]
To be fair the soviets kinda leveled Afghanistan - we just supported the counter-insurgency.  Part of the "American DNA" seems to be a steadfast belief that the world can be a better place, and we ought to be the ones actively making that change. It's not a bad instinct and much good has come from it, but it also gets us into military quagmires when we think that our intervention will suddenly create new strong democracies.

...and now Trump is so convinced of his own brilliance that he thinks he will usher in peace in the middle east after several millenia of ethnic wars. That's literally been the belief of the last 8+ administrations.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2394 on: February 26, 2017, 01:53:55 PM »
Sadly my views are changing.  I am starting to see the DNC/RNC as similar shades of brown.

Jimmy Dore's Show on youtube is pretty enlightening.  He commented that when Americans are riled up to pick on people that are less fortunate/advantaged than them, such as immigrants or refugees; the idea is to distract them from the theft of tax payer dollars, policies that mess with us etc...

One example, that shocked me, was that it cost the US military just shy of $4mln to keep an American solider in Afghanistan for a year.  Here's the info from TIME: "the CRS report says the cost of keeping a single American soldier there this year is an eye-watering $3.9 million."  We are spending huge sums.  And now...
Trump's general in Afghanistan needs a few thousand more troops to break the stalemate with the Taliban.  So this has been going on a long time a few a more troops is going to change things? They really know how stupid we really are, with thoroughly lame logic as that! Read for yourselves here:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/09/us/politics/us-afghanistan-troops.html

So irrespective of party in power we are going to pour more money info a country that we totally messed up in the 1980s, when we could have done things at least a little better.

Sigh...such a tremendously sad state of our country.

This is not sad news. I'm encouraged by your revelation.

I'm personally livid at our privately funded two party system - and I have been for a long while now. Hardly anyone seems to get what I'm talking about. It's the privately funded two party system that gave us HRC and DJT to choose from. It's the privately funded two party system that has developed extensive propaganda arms to keep us distracted with wedge issues even as laws are passed that allow corporate profiteering of our government - a prime example being WAR.

So welcome to the club. Spread the word. The DNC and RNC are awful organizations and their existence is an affront to what's supposed to be a democratic system. IMO one is worse than the other, but that hardly matters. This system will continue to give us shit candidates and bullshit issues as a handful of wealthy people + corporations take over everything.

They're taking over prisons, police, schools, public works. And there's little accountability. Cops can take your assets withoug ever charging you with a crime (Civil Asset Forfeiture). IF you're any type of minority, you can be sold off into a private prison for years on petty drug charges. This isn't governance, this is profiteering. Anyone who tells you differently is either stupid or is taking a share in the profits.

Our constitutional rights have been coopted by corporations and money. And here everyone is doing just what the people in control want us doing: bickering over who can use what bathrooms.

So, yes - your revelation is GOOD NEWS. SPREAD THE WORD.
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Malaysia41

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2395 on: February 26, 2017, 03:17:13 PM »
Sorry there were a few typos / ambiguous pronouns in that comment above, but for some reason I'm unable to modify / edit right now. Don't strain an eye muscle reading it!
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2396 on: February 26, 2017, 03:49:29 PM »
It will be interesting to see DJT address Congress this week.  On one hand, it is Republican-owned so he should be able to swagger in and say whatever he thinks people want to hear.  More of the same would be fine.  But then again, he is inconsistent and prefers going extreme to just delivering on his message.  Probably can't resist the chance to antagonize the Democrats, but might also be willing to alienate Republicans.  Maybe give them hell for not cutting taxes, imploding ACA, approving funds for a wall, and not lining up behind him unilaterally.  I'm expecting a low-water mark for America.  But hey, there's always the chance he comes out well-spoken, respectful of history and his place as leader of the free world, and begins to repair the divisive atmosphere he has cultivated...
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2397 on: February 26, 2017, 03:59:34 PM »
Trump is skipping the White House Correspondents' Dinner.  Snowflake might get upset.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2398 on: February 26, 2017, 04:46:28 PM »
Democrats may have been trying to fix health care forever. I'm sick and tired of them fucking it up and failing so god damned always. It's fine if you wish to blame the other party for their failings, but they had a super majority in congress and a progressive president and had their chance to truly improve health care in this country, despite any Republican disagreement . Instead they gave the insurance lobby huge subsidies, the people double digit premium increases and little improvement in Healthcare  outcomes for their trouble. Forgive me that I'm not cutting the corrupt bastards any slack.
BIB: this is no doubt true for some but it is not true for all.  Can it be acknowledged that the ACA has disbenefits for some (usually those who already had good health, good health care and the money to pay for it) and benefits for others (usually those without good health, good health care or the money to pay for it)?  Saying that something is all bad just because it's not all good, or because it's not good for your particular demographic, doesn't take the discussion anywhere.
Yes, clearly some people are better off now. Some people are worse off. Which implies that some people were better off before, while some were worse off. I have no problem with large parts of the ACA.  I am not arguing going back to the old system. What frustrates me is the people who say "some people are better off now, so changing things must be wrong." I think there is so much room for improvement to make everyone better off, or at least more people better off and fewer people worse off, that to not push for those changes because it is a Republican plan or a Democrat plan is terrible for those people who are worse offf. Finger pointing and blame laying from both sides just keeps positive changes from being discussed, and shutting down any conversation because republicans in the 90s didnt vote for single payer or some other silly reason is completely leaving people who are not helped by the current situation out to dry.

I appreciate all of the positive discussion, loads of diverse viewpoints and massive amounts of information in this, and other, threads, especially when I disagree with it. Discussion and information sharing are the best ways to help figure out how to progress and improve the system. So thank you everyone, for this.  The occasional personal attacks are not a particularly positive addition, but hardly worth side tracking on.
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nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2399 on: February 26, 2017, 05:04:14 PM »
Trump is skipping the White House Correspondents' Dinner.  Snowflake might get upset.
snowflake?
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