Author Topic: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?  (Read 159101 times)

nereo

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5682
  • Location: la belle province
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2100 on: February 16, 2017, 05:16:38 AM »
He effectively ignored any mention of Canada in his response about the Canadian border at a conference with Canadian Journalists with Canadian Prime Minister Trudeau.
WTF.

Canadians don't vote.

Until the Canadian press starts to have some pull with American audiences, trump will openly and completely ignore Canada. 

Everything he says or tweets is designed to elicit a response from his supporters and enrage his enemies.  He doesn't seem to care about measuring the political impacts of his statements.  And he certainly doesn't care if any of it is true.
Well, he did approve Keystone XL.... so there's that.
To Sol's cheeky "Canadian's don't vote" - that skirted my point.  When Trump was asked about the Canadian border he ignored the question entirely and just listed a bunch of companies he supposedly had forced into 'great' deals.  But he (Sol) has a point that until US citizens care he can get away with it.  Why should Americans (including his base) care?  Because Canada is the US's biggest trading partner... not Mexico or China. If his base really gives a damn about refugees streaming across the boarder they ought to care that Canada has been letting in tens of thousands Syrian refugees, and unlike the rather armored and patrolled Mexican border the Canadian border is pretty darn porous and a hell of a lot longer.
Frankly, I"m amazed that DJT can keep the focus on Mexico, especially when Trudeau stood in the White House and renewed its commitment to bring in more Syrians and argued that the US Canada border must remain open to both jobs and people.

RE the Keystone XL - meh.  That oil was being shipped inefficiently by rail until prices cratered (and it will again soon) so the global environmental change of the pipeline will change very little.  The people who really loose here are the state and local governments. They take on all the risk of the pipeline with little long term benefit. Once again the GOP proves it no longer stands for states rights and limited federal government.
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

dividendman

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 721
  • Age: 34
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2101 on: February 16, 2017, 08:06:23 AM »
Once again the GOP proves it no longer stands for states rights and limited federal government.

I think you misinterpret the GOP wanting to limit the federal government and enhance states rights.... they only want that when the Democrats are in charge.

nereo

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5682
  • Location: la belle province
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2102 on: February 16, 2017, 08:57:46 AM »
Once again the GOP proves it no longer stands for states rights and limited federal government.

I think you misinterpret the GOP wanting to limit the federal government and enhance states rights.... they only want that when the Democrats are in charge.

I disagree that it's me misinterpreting the GOP's stance on government - the GOP pays a lot of lip service about being the party of limited government.  These are taken directly from the GOP's 2016 platform:

Quote
We believe our constitutional system - limited government, seperation of powers, federalism, and the rights of people - must be preserved uncompromised for generations

And this means returning to the people and the states the control that belongs to them. It is the control and the power to make their own decisions about what’s best for themselves and their families and communities.

Our most urgent task as a Party is to restore the American people’s faith in their government by electing a president who will enforce duly enacted laws, honor constitutional limits on executive authority, and return credibility to the Oval Office. We need a Republican president who will end abuses of power by departments and agencies, like the IRS and the EPA, and by the White House itself. Safeguarding our liberties requires a president who will respect the Constitution’s separation of powers, including the authority of Congress to write legislation and define agency authority.

We further affirm that courts should interpret laws as written by Congress rather than allowing executive agencies to rewrite those laws to suit administration priorities.

our national government derives its power from the governed and that all powers not delegated to the government are retained by the people. We call upon legislators to give full force to this fundamental principle. We welcome to our ranks all citizens who are determined to reclaim the rights of the people that have been ignored or usurped by the federal and intrusive state governments.

Federalism is a cornerstone of our constitutional system. Every violation of state sovereignty by federal officials is not merely a transgression of one unit of government against another; it is an assault on the liberties of individual Americans. Hence the promise of the Tenth Amendment: “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.” The Constitution gives the federal government very few powers, and they are specifically enumerated

...and on and on.  Literally their 66 page platform dwells extensively on how the federal government must be smaller, powers should be returned to the states, and congress should assert more of its powers back from the executive branch.
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

iowajes

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4279
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2103 on: February 16, 2017, 09:31:34 AM »
And the worst part is that the vast majority of the voting population is unaware  or I imagine would be highly dismissive of these revelations - esp if they voted for Trump based on a series of clicks through paid advertising via facebook.

No one wants to admit they were duped. I knew this sort of stuff was going on but I was honestly unaware of just how huge the scope was. There is so much cool stuff Big Data can do for the world, but damn its dark side is troubling.

Many of the people I know who voted for Trump still support him. As far as I can tell they do so solely on an anti-immigrant stance and don't care about the rest.  A few of them daily post on facebook about how hard it is to be a white man.

I know one woman who is somewhat upset with Trump, but only about DeVos, since she's a public school teacher. But again, she thinks everything else he is doing is right on track.

I'm baffled.

Kris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2204
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2104 on: February 16, 2017, 09:36:32 AM »
And the worst part is that the vast majority of the voting population is unaware  or I imagine would be highly dismissive of these revelations - esp if they voted for Trump based on a series of clicks through paid advertising via facebook.

No one wants to admit they were duped. I knew this sort of stuff was going on but I was honestly unaware of just how huge the scope was. There is so much cool stuff Big Data can do for the world, but damn its dark side is troubling.

Many of the people I know who voted for Trump still support him. As far as I can tell they do so solely on an anti-immigrant stance and don't care about the rest.  A few of them daily post on facebook about how hard it is to be a white man.

I know one woman who is somewhat upset with Trump, but only about DeVos, since she's a public school teacher. But again, she thinks everything else he is doing is right on track.

I'm baffled.

It's much less baffling when you realize they live in a completely alternate universe of "alternative facts" that's been created and fostered by people like Steve Bannon. They aren't upset by what's happening because they literally don't know what's happening. They only know what Breitbart et al tell them.
"Well I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I weren't under such heavy sedation."   - David St. Hubins, This is Spinal Tap

Tasty Pinecones

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 617
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2105 on: February 16, 2017, 09:46:04 AM »
I have one relative who is still passing along the same BS that we heard all during the election. The topics have shifted from HRC to Trump's bullet points but the quality of the information passed along is still just as poor. 

Sad thing is that they were once active Republicans that seemed to "get it" and while their opinions did not always match mine their opinion was mostly based on legit facts.

sol

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4945
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2106 on: February 16, 2017, 09:50:57 AM »
I disagree that it's me misinterpreting the GOP's stance on government - the GOP pays a lot of lip service about being the party of limited government.

I don't think it's you misinterpreting, I think it is them deliberately deceiving.

I agree that their party platform pays much lip service to the ideals of smaller government, but their actions over the past 30 years betray the lie.  Divedendman was just pointing out the disconnect between what they say and what they do.

Don't be taken in by the advertising brochure.  Look at the actual product.  Republicanism has a long track record, and it has nothing to do with smaller government.

Midwest

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1110
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2107 on: February 16, 2017, 10:01:58 AM »
He said many of those things because Cambridge analytics said he should

the-rise-of-the-weaponized-ai-propaganda-machine

Yikes, what an article. Today's challenge to those who still support Trump: read the above and share your thoughts. I am genuinely interested. Not so much in whether you agree about how this process helped Trump win (doubt you'll go there), but more on the overall implications of this use of personal data.

Other than the fact that Google is much more powerful, how is that materially different than this -

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/julian-assange-google-hillary-clinton_us_5633acc9e4b0631799123a7d

1) That link explicitly states that "To date, however, there’s no evidence that any engineers or executives currently working for Google or Alphabet, Google’s parent company, are doing anything to support Clinton’s campaign."

That comment refers to manipulating search results.  I haven't seen any evidence from a credible site of search results being manipulated by google.  However, google personnel and many in the tech industry were active supporters of Clinton.   

My point is that, if anything, she had a huge technological advantage.


3) This quote from the article I linked (which is unclear you read in its entirety or at all): "Political analysts in the Clinton campaign, who were basing their tactics on traditional polling methods, laughed when Trump scheduled campaign events in the so-called blue wall — a group of states that includes Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin and has traditionally fallen to Democrats. But Cambridge Analytica saw they had an opening based on measured engagement with their Facebook posts. It was the small margins in Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin that won Trump the election."

More than bad data was in play in Clinton losing those states.  Her campaign and the media were overconfident. 

Polling methods have been problematic for quite some some time.  In the past, Democrats have found an advantage in this area.  In 2016, it appears the Republicans found and exploited an advantage.


3a) And this one: "Dark posts were also used to depress voter turnout among key groups of democratic voters," which is a whole nother level beyond standard political ads being sent to targeted audiences...

3b) And implies that even if they are trying to do the same thing and The Groundwork was working for Clinton (which your link implies they were not), The Groundwork clearly has worse algorithms and/or potentially is not as insidiously invasive of privacy and/or is not as unethical in their use. Not that I would condone them anyway because...

4) Even if I'm wrong and they are the same (yet to be proven) I find them equally objectionable, and so should you.

5) ETA - And then there is this quote: "Research by Woolley and his Oxford-based team in the lead-up to the 2016 election found that pro-Trump political messaging relied heavily on bots to spread fake news and discredit Hillary Clinton. By election day, Trump’s bots outnumbered hers, 5:1."

So there you go, she used them too, but at a far lower level which implies quite a lot about how she perceived them and what exactly her bots were doing. Still questionable though, depending on those exact details, to be sure.

If I interpret you and the article correctly, both sides were using bots and trolls.   Trump used more and his were more effective?

I think bots, trolls and fake news are objectionable.  Both sides used them.  Based on your comments, it appears Clinton used them less although it still sounds like she used them a lot.  Using something that is wrong less, doesn't vindicate her campaign.

ETA#2 - "Cambridge Analytica may be slated to secure more federal contracts and is likely about to begin managing White House digital communications for the rest of the Trump Administration. What new predictive-personality targeting becomes possible with potential access to data on U.S. voters from the IRS, Department of Homeland Security, or the NSA?"

I would hope NSA and Homeland security data is firewalled.  This kind of discussion is why that data shouldn't exist absent a warrant to begin with.  Both parties have had ample opportunity to do something about it.  Neither have.

I suspect you did not read the whole article at all (I'll admit I was only about halfway through when I first posted).

When I first commented, I hadn't read the entire article and was posting a question.  I have now read the article and looked at the site.  In my opinion, it's a slanted site and that's a slanted article.  It doesn't mean it's entirely false, but I think there is a lot of opinion in there.

Slant isn't unique to the left, it exists on the right as well so when I read an article such as that, I consider the source. 

nereo

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5682
  • Location: la belle province
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2108 on: February 16, 2017, 10:05:30 AM »
Don't be taken in by the advertising brochure.  Look at the actual product.  Republicanism has a long track record, and it has nothing to do with smaller government.

Oh, I agree.  I just read each party's platform and then look at what they ultiamtely do (which are often diametrically opposed).

At the same time I have family members which are dyed-in-the-wool Republican voters who rail against the Democrats and "their big spending, big government" evils.

I think the GOP would loose many of their core supporters if only people would question whether their talk about state's rights and limited government were backed up (instead of opposed by) actions supporting these positions.
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

Kris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2204
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2109 on: February 16, 2017, 10:32:45 AM »
By the way, if you want a quick sense of how "the right" is casting this (with a typical "tu quoque" bullshit argument, of course):
"Well I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I weren't under such heavy sedation."   - David St. Hubins, This is Spinal Tap

Gondolin

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 282
  • Location: Northern VA
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2110 on: February 16, 2017, 10:40:57 AM »
Quote
By the way, if you want a quick sense of how "the right" is casting this

Hillary's just too good a villain to ever let die.
"There cannot be two skies"

sol

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4945
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2111 on: February 16, 2017, 10:43:35 AM »
By the way, if you want a quick sense of how "the right" is casting this (with a typical "tu quoque" bullshit argument, of course):

I've just found my new retirement hobby.  I'm going to manufacture political memes to counteract this kind of BS with leftist imitations.  I read the news, I'm good with Photoshop, and I have a penchant for oversimplification in the pursuit of obfuscation.

I'll report back after I go viral. 

cchrissyy

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 329
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2112 on: February 16, 2017, 10:47:39 AM »
ah, of course, "the national security of the nation"

nereo

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5682
  • Location: la belle province
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2113 on: February 16, 2017, 10:51:05 AM »
By the way, if you want a quick sense of how "the right" is casting this (with a typical "tu quoque" bullshit argument, of course):

I've just found my new retirement hobby.  I'm going to manufacture political memes to counteract this kind of BS with leftist imitations.  I read the news, I'm good with Photoshop, and I have a penchant for oversimplification in the pursuit of obfuscation.

I'll report back after I go viral.

SUBSCRIBE!
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

DoubleDown

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1833
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2114 on: February 16, 2017, 11:14:19 AM »
Their lead is now, "'VERY UN-AMERICAN': Trump blasts US intel community over 'illegal' leaks."

Does anyone else remember when trump was so enthusiastic about "illegal leaks" that he literally asked Russia to hack Clinton's emails last July?  He publicly commended wikileaks for publishing stolen DNC documents. 

The man built his whole campaign on the very thing he is now calling "UnAmerican".  I don't think you can get much more hypocritical than that.

Yup, it's about as ridiculous as everything else Trump says/does. Plus you have Republicans in Congress with the attitude of "Nothing to see here" (vis a vis Jason Chaffetz) or others like David Nunes (R) who completely ignore the threat to national security of collusion with Russian intelligence agents by high level Trump administration officials, and instead focus on the "leaks". Nunes said the real crime was that U.S. intelligence services were listening in on a phone call with a U.S. citizen, i.e., Michael Flynn!! Yeah, how dare the FBI and CIA listen in on Russian diplomats and intelligence agents. They should definitely stop spying when a hostile foreign agent is on a call with a U.S. citizen, particularly the next National Security Advisor, discussing illegal things before he's even in office.

I'll say, the great thing out of all this is that there are moles in the White House leaking this info in the first place. All bets seem to be on Reince Preibus as at least one of them, but whoever it is, it's a great thing for democracy. I'm against any leaks of classified info, but the leaks out of the White House about the incompetency and illegal shenanigans is much needed and appreciated.
"Not all quotes on the internet are accurate" -- Abraham Lincoln

Kris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2204
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2115 on: February 16, 2017, 11:59:20 AM »
Right-wing-pundit-who-finally-developed-a-conscious Charles Sykes, on why it doesn't matter to conservatives that Trump is lying.

Spoiler alert: because the right wing media conditioned them long ago to stop believing in facts. And the more mainstream media tries to counter the lies with actual information and facts, the less conservatives will believe any of it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/04/opinion/sunday/why-nobody-cares-the-president-is-lying.html?smid=fb-share
"Well I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I weren't under such heavy sedation."   - David St. Hubins, This is Spinal Tap

OurTown

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 303
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Memphis, Tenn.
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2116 on: February 16, 2017, 12:31:32 PM »
By the way, if you want a quick sense of how "the right" is casting this (with a typical "tu quoque" bullshit argument, of course):

The right wouldn't know what "tu quoque" was if it bit them in the pantsuit.

nereo

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5682
  • Location: la belle province
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2117 on: February 16, 2017, 12:37:46 PM »
Today Trump very forcefully and frequently evoked 'strategy #1: Blame your predecessor'

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2017/02/16/trump-says-he-inherited-a-mess-blasts-media-and-detractors-for-treatment-of-his-administration/?hpid=hp_hp-banner-main_trumpmedia-pp-220pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.c54b24b5cc60

Yeah, things sure are a mess...5% unemployment, low inflation, ... nothing at all llike Obama, who got to inherent rainbows and sunshine - /sarcasm.
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

Lagom

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1112
  • Age: 33
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2118 on: February 16, 2017, 01:16:26 PM »
More on what might happen if you refuse to give up your phone password. Looks like this hasn't ever been truly tested in court:

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/02/what-could-happen-if-you-refuse-to-unlock-your-phone-at-the-us-border/

JLee

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3478
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2119 on: February 16, 2017, 01:26:32 PM »
More on what might happen if you refuse to give up your phone password. Looks like this hasn't ever been truly tested in court:

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/02/what-could-happen-if-you-refuse-to-unlock-your-phone-at-the-us-border/

I bet there are quite a few attorneys out there who would love to take a case for someone criminally charged for refusing to unlock their phone.

Gin1984

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4190
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2120 on: February 16, 2017, 02:23:26 PM »
More on what might happen if you refuse to give up your phone password. Looks like this hasn't ever been truly tested in court:

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/02/what-could-happen-if-you-refuse-to-unlock-your-phone-at-the-us-border/

I bet there are quite a few attorneys out there who would love to take a case for someone criminally charged for refusing to unlock their phone.
You'd need to have access to one.

Johnez

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 540
  • Location: Southern California
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2121 on: February 16, 2017, 02:28:25 PM »
So now Trump is going on a witch hunt to pull the Obama loyalists out of any department leaking to the press. I find this pretty sad. It shows a lack of dignity and careful long term thinking. It is like a paranoid lover keeping track of his mates contacts for fear of cheating rather than simply being a good mate. I wouldn't doubt if half the leakers were BUSH loyalists wanting an actual conservative (Pence) in charge...

JLee

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3478
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2122 on: February 16, 2017, 02:30:09 PM »
More on what might happen if you refuse to give up your phone password. Looks like this hasn't ever been truly tested in court:

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/02/what-could-happen-if-you-refuse-to-unlock-your-phone-at-the-us-border/

I bet there are quite a few attorneys out there who would love to take a case for someone criminally charged for refusing to unlock their phone.
You'd need to have access to one.
I can't imagine a situation where you would end up in a courtroom facing a criminal charge without having access to an attorney.  That's blatantly unconstitutional.

Gin1984

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4190
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2123 on: February 16, 2017, 02:47:14 PM »
More on what might happen if you refuse to give up your phone password. Looks like this hasn't ever been truly tested in court:

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/02/what-could-happen-if-you-refuse-to-unlock-your-phone-at-the-us-border/

I bet there are quite a few attorneys out there who would love to take a case for someone criminally charged for refusing to unlock their phone.
You'd need to have access to one.
I can't imagine a situation where you would end up in a courtroom facing a criminal charge without having access to an attorney.  That's blatantly unconstitutional.
How many incidences would you like me to list? 

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk


JLee

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3478
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2124 on: February 16, 2017, 03:01:19 PM »
More on what might happen if you refuse to give up your phone password. Looks like this hasn't ever been truly tested in court:

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/02/what-could-happen-if-you-refuse-to-unlock-your-phone-at-the-us-border/

I bet there are quite a few attorneys out there who would love to take a case for someone criminally charged for refusing to unlock their phone.
You'd need to have access to one.
I can't imagine a situation where you would end up in a courtroom facing a criminal charge without having access to an attorney.  That's blatantly unconstitutional.
How many incidences would you like me to list? 

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

If you have an example of a US citizen being federally charged with a crime and facing a court while being denied access to counsel, I would love to see it.

Wexler

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 110
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2125 on: February 16, 2017, 03:12:59 PM »
Here's a 100% true and realistic impact of this presidency: I will never look at my fellow countrymen the same way since they elected this fucking lunatic. 

This.is.our.president.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/02/16/a_selection_of_verbatim_quotes_from_trump_s_first_solo_press_conference.html

On relations with Russia in general: “I have been briefed. I and I can tell you, one thing about a briefing that we're allowed to say, because anybody that ever read the most basic book can say it, nuclear holocaust would be like no other.”


Jesus fucking Christ. 

t5inside

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 32
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2126 on: February 16, 2017, 03:25:31 PM »
Oopsie:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/flynn-in-fbi-interview-denied-discussing-sanctions-with-russian-ambassador/2017/02/16/e3e1e16a-f3d5-11e6-8d72-263470bf0401_story.html

I'm curious their source, but it doesn't surprise me. Nice that Trump was out defending him in his press conference just an hour ago.

jim555

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 979
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2127 on: February 16, 2017, 03:45:04 PM »
More on what might happen if you refuse to give up your phone password. Looks like this hasn't ever been truly tested in court:

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/02/what-could-happen-if-you-refuse-to-unlock-your-phone-at-the-us-border/
A US citizen has no obligation to answer any questions by law enforcement.  They have no case. 
They can ask all they want.

JLee

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3478
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2128 on: February 16, 2017, 05:52:35 PM »
More on what might happen if you refuse to give up your phone password. Looks like this hasn't ever been truly tested in court:

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/02/what-could-happen-if-you-refuse-to-unlock-your-phone-at-the-us-border/
A US citizen has no obligation to answer any questions by law enforcement.  They have no case. 
They can ask all they want.

Yep.  If I'm asked and they keep pressing past my initial "no," I will refer them to my employer's legal team (I use my phone for work). We'll see how that plays out.

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5313
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2129 on: February 16, 2017, 06:40:02 PM »
More on what might happen if you refuse to give up your phone password. Looks like this hasn't ever been truly tested in court:

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/02/what-could-happen-if-you-refuse-to-unlock-your-phone-at-the-us-border/
A US citizen has no obligation to answer any questions by law enforcement.  They have no case. 
They can ask all they want.

Yep.  If I'm asked and they keep pressing past my initial "no," I will refer them to my employer's legal team (I use my phone for work). We'll see how that plays out.
CNN Lays out a pretty good comparison of the ramifications for refusal between citizens, foreign nationals and permanent resident visa holders. Link
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5313
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2130 on: February 16, 2017, 06:42:27 PM »
More on what might happen if you refuse to give up your phone password. Looks like this hasn't ever been truly tested in court:

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/02/what-could-happen-if-you-refuse-to-unlock-your-phone-at-the-us-border/

I bet there are quite a few attorneys out there who would love to take a case for someone criminally charged for refusing to unlock their phone.
You'd need to have access to one.
I can't imagine a situation where you would end up in a courtroom facing a criminal charge without having access to an attorney.  That's blatantly unconstitutional.
How many incidences would you like me to list? 

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk
I would love to see a list of these incidents, with supporting documentation. The most relevant would be post 2001 border security incidents, of course.
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

bacchi

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1865
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2131 on: February 16, 2017, 06:57:49 PM »
More on what might happen if you refuse to give up your phone password. Looks like this hasn't ever been truly tested in court:

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/02/what-could-happen-if-you-refuse-to-unlock-your-phone-at-the-us-border/

I bet there are quite a few attorneys out there who would love to take a case for someone criminally charged for refusing to unlock their phone.

https://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/2012/01/decrypt.pdf

Summary: The courts can order you to reveal a password for an encrypted device (in this case, a laptop). Of course, there were other charges and it was believed that the laptop held evidence.

I think it's more likely that DHS would hold you for a few days and just not return the phone/laptop, forcing you to hire counsel to sue for the return of your own device.

It makes me think a dual boot phone could be useful here. Just boot into "clean" mode and give them that password.

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5313
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2132 on: February 16, 2017, 07:04:37 PM »

It makes me think a dual boot phone could be useful here. Just boot into "clean" mode and give them that password.

This has been covered. It is considered ill advisable, as when you boot up your sanitized device the agents will likely view this as suspicious.
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

jim555

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 979
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2133 on: February 16, 2017, 07:12:54 PM »
More on what might happen if you refuse to give up your phone password. Looks like this hasn't ever been truly tested in court:

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/02/what-could-happen-if-you-refuse-to-unlock-your-phone-at-the-us-border/

I bet there are quite a few attorneys out there who would love to take a case for someone criminally charged for refusing to unlock their phone.

https://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/2012/01/decrypt.pdf

Summary: The courts can order you to reveal a password for an encrypted device (in this case, a laptop). Of course, there were other charges and it was believed that the laptop held evidence.

I think it's more likely that DHS would hold you for a few days and just not return the phone/laptop, forcing you to hire counsel to sue for the return of your own device.

It makes me think a dual boot phone could be useful here. Just boot into "clean" mode and give them that password.
After reading that pdf some interesting notes.  They granted the defendant immunity so she is not in danger and therefore has no 5th amendment rights to assert.  They didn't demand the password, they demanded the hard drive be produced in an unencrypted form.

JLee

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3478
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2134 on: February 16, 2017, 07:14:08 PM »
More on what might happen if you refuse to give up your phone password. Looks like this hasn't ever been truly tested in court:

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/02/what-could-happen-if-you-refuse-to-unlock-your-phone-at-the-us-border/

I bet there are quite a few attorneys out there who would love to take a case for someone criminally charged for refusing to unlock their phone.

https://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/2012/01/decrypt.pdf

Summary: The courts can order you to reveal a password for an encrypted device (in this case, a laptop). Of course, there were other charges and it was believed that the laptop held evidence.

I think it's more likely that DHS would hold you for a few days and just not return the phone/laptop, forcing you to hire counsel to sue for the return of your own device.

It makes me think a dual boot phone could be useful here. Just boot into "clean" mode and give them that password.

A court order is a lot different than a CBP official's demand.  If DHS held a citizen for a few days (i.e. denying entry to the country) the ACLU would have an absolute field day.  It'd probably be worth it for the nearly guaranteed legal settlement afterwards.

jim555

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 979
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2135 on: February 16, 2017, 07:21:04 PM »
A non-US citizen who refused would probably not be allowed to enter the country.

This whole thing is easily avoidable with placing your encrypted data into the cloud.

JLee

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3478
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2136 on: February 16, 2017, 07:42:09 PM »
A non-US citizen who refused would probably not be allowed to enter the country.

This whole thing is easily avoidable with placing your encrypted data into the cloud.

You would have to plan ahead and sign out of all attached accounts on your device - most people have Dropbox, Google, etc. permanently logged in on their phones.

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5313
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2137 on: February 16, 2017, 07:43:45 PM »
A non-US citizen who refused would probably not be allowed to enter the country.

This whole thing is easily avoidable with placing your encrypted data into the cloud.
Genius. Then the government can look at it at their leisure. :D
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

jim555

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 979
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2138 on: February 16, 2017, 07:47:06 PM »
A non-US citizen who refused would probably not be allowed to enter the country.

This whole thing is easily avoidable with placing your encrypted data into the cloud.
Genius. Then the government can look at it at their leisure. :D
They can look, but random looking bytes don't help them.

dragoncar

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6982
  • Registered member
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2139 on: February 16, 2017, 08:01:07 PM »

It makes me think a dual boot phone could be useful here. Just boot into "clean" mode and give them that password.

This has been covered. It is considered ill advisable, as when you boot up your sanitized device the agents will likely view this as suspicious.

I think I missed it -- covered where?  I'm leaving the country soon and am considering wiping my phone before re-entering (I don't have anything incriminating, but my phone has access to decades of emails that they can go through)

JLee

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3478
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2140 on: February 16, 2017, 08:05:14 PM »

It makes me think a dual boot phone could be useful here. Just boot into "clean" mode and give them that password.

This has been covered. It is considered ill advisable, as when you boot up your sanitized device the agents will likely view this as suspicious.

I think I missed it -- covered where?  I'm leaving the country soon and am considering wiping my phone before re-entering (I don't have anything incriminating, but my phone has access to decades of emails that they can go through)

If you log out of all cloud-connected accounts, I think that would render everything inaccessible.  I may have to test that.

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5313
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2141 on: February 16, 2017, 08:09:39 PM »

It makes me think a dual boot phone could be useful here. Just boot into "clean" mode and give them that password.

This has been covered. It is considered ill advisable, as when you boot up your sanitized device the agents will likely view this as suspicious.

I think I missed it -- covered where?  I'm leaving the country soon and am considering wiping my phone before re-entering (I don't have anything incriminating, but my phone has access to decades of emails that they can go through)

 Nathan Freed Wessler, a staff attorney with the ACLU:
Quote
Wessler's advice is similar: "The best advice may be to be really careful on how many devices and what kind of data you're carrying with you," he says. "In terms of devices, government can't search what you don't have."

People who are concerned should leave their primary phone or laptop at home and travel with another device, he says.

Or, you could back up your data to a secure server, wipe it from your phone and then restore the data after you pass through customs, Wessler says. But this also could raise suspicions at the border.
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

dragoncar

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6982
  • Registered member
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2142 on: February 16, 2017, 08:24:06 PM »

It makes me think a dual boot phone could be useful here. Just boot into "clean" mode and give them that password.

This has been covered. It is considered ill advisable, as when you boot up your sanitized device the agents will likely view this as suspicious.

I think I missed it -- covered where?  I'm leaving the country soon and am considering wiping my phone before re-entering (I don't have anything incriminating, but my phone has access to decades of emails that they can go through)

 Nathan Freed Wessler, a staff attorney with the ACLU:
Quote
Wessler's advice is similar: "The best advice may be to be really careful on how many devices and what kind of data you're carrying with you," he says. "In terms of devices, government can't search what you don't have."

People who are concerned should leave their primary phone or laptop at home and travel with another device, he says.

Or, you could back up your data to a secure server, wipe it from your phone and then restore the data after you pass through customs, Wessler says. But this also could raise suspicions at the border.

That doesn't say it's ill advisable, and carrying a non-primary phone is likely just as suspicious (since it will look like a wiped phone)

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5313
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2143 on: February 16, 2017, 08:30:52 PM »
That doesn't say it's ill advisable, and carrying a non-primary phone is likely just as suspicious (since it will look like a wiped phone)
Ok. I guess we have different understanding of whether looking suspicious at the boarder is ill-advisable or not. No problem.

If, worse case scenario, a back-up phone is just as suspicious, I guess I would prefer to let the CBP keep my back-up phone for several months while they dig through it, as opposed to my primary phone.
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

jim555

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 979
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2144 on: February 16, 2017, 08:38:00 PM »
Did anyone see the news conference today?  DJT looks like a flailing guy about to go under. 

JLee

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3478
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2145 on: February 16, 2017, 09:16:15 PM »
Did anyone see the news conference today?  DJT looks like a flailing guy about to go under.

LOL, yes...I caught a bit this afternoon. He was quite displeased about "BAD questions" from reporters.

Lagom

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1112
  • Age: 33
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2146 on: February 16, 2017, 09:44:05 PM »
Let us not forget the more run of the mill greed and fiscal irresponsibility the Trump family is indulging in weekly at taxpayer expense (total coincidence that Trump's businesses are benefitting from the expense, of course):

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-family%E2%80%99s-elaborate-lifestyle-is-a-%E2%80%98logistical-nightmare%E2%80%99-%E2%80%94-at-taxpayer-expense/ar-AAn1H4A?li=BBnb7Kz

EscapeVelocity2020

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1251
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Houston
    • EscapeVelocity2020
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2147 on: February 16, 2017, 10:01:33 PM »
Did anyone see the news conference today?  DJT looks like a flailing guy about to go under.

LOL, yes...I caught a bit this afternoon. He was quite displeased about "BAD questions" from reporters.

It was seriously pathetic to see the President of the United States worry about getting 'difficult questions'.  And he does such a lame job on answering questions anyways.  But the low point for me was when the Jewish reporter (not stereotyping, he was very culturally Jewish) got the go ahead and then got shut up and dressed down. 

I suppose I could be understanding if there were an obvious, prolonged, unfounded hatchet job against Trump, but I honestly feel like reporters are doing a reasonable job trying to shed light on what they hope aren't too troubling of issues.  No-one really wants to hear that Trump has made some deals with Russia, but we do want to put all of the swirling inconsistency and troubling leaks of partial truth behind us.

This level of incompetence is dangerous in the fact that it demoralizes while giving enthusiasm to those that wish to do us harm.  If the US was perceived as a bully in the past, we are also becoming an ally that seems compromised.  In other words, every time Trump speaks publicly, he is turning up the boil on global politics, probably inadvertently, and also making it hard to unify behind him.

Has it really only been 4 weeks?
Transitioning to FIRE'd albeit somewhat cautiously...

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5313
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2148 on: February 16, 2017, 11:19:38 PM »
Let us not forget the more run of the mill greed and fiscal irresponsibility the Trump family is indulging in weekly at taxpayer expense (total coincidence that Trump's businesses are benefitting from the expense, of course):

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-family%E2%80%99s-elaborate-lifestyle-is-a-%E2%80%98logistical-nightmare%E2%80%99-%E2%80%94-at-taxpayer-expense/ar-AAn1H4A?li=BBnb7Kz
While I can see the greed, I don't see the fiscal irresponsibility. I mean, even if he quadruples the expense of protecting a president to 200 million over his 4 year term, that's not even a rounding error in terms of the U.S. budget.
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

Lagom

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1112
  • Age: 33
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2149 on: February 16, 2017, 11:27:00 PM »
Let us not forget the more run of the mill greed and fiscal irresponsibility the Trump family is indulging in weekly at taxpayer expense (total coincidence that Trump's businesses are benefitting from the expense, of course):

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-family%E2%80%99s-elaborate-lifestyle-is-a-%E2%80%98logistical-nightmare%E2%80%99-%E2%80%94-at-taxpayer-expense/ar-AAn1H4A?li=BBnb7Kz
While I can see the greed, I don't see the fiscal irresponsibility. I mean, even if he quadruples the expense of protecting a president to 200 million over his 4 year term, that's not even a rounding error in terms of the U.S. budget.

Please.