Author Topic: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?  (Read 229560 times)

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1900 on: February 09, 2017, 07:20:47 PM »
If the courts strike down Trump's executive order as unconstitutional and all of the appeals to the contrary are exhausted, does Sally Yates get her job back?

She was fired for failing to enforce/defend a legal order. But if the order is found to be illegal... then she was right and she shouldn't have tried to enforce/defend it.

The more immediate impact is that all of the lawsuits from green-card and visa holders will move ahead.  I bet the US Gov't becomes a cash pinata for emotional and job-related damages, lawyers are going to have a field day and an interesting precedent will be set on being able to directly challenge Executive Orders.  Who knew that Making America Great Again would start with making immigrants and lawyers rich and powerful?  Talk about unintended consequences!   
« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 07:24:19 PM by EscapeVelocity2020 »
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sol

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1901 on: February 09, 2017, 07:23:27 PM »
If the courts strike down Trump's executive order as unconstitutional and all of the appeals to the contrary are exhausted, does Sally Yates get her job back?

Sally Yates was a political appointee, not a career civil servant.  She never had any job protections.  She could have been dismissed at any time, for any reason or no reason at all.

Of course, Trump is trying to strip all of the current job protections for career civil servants, too.  He apparently pines for the olden days before merit reviews, when  government employment was a reward for party loyalists and nepotism and corruption were Business As Usual.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I'm betting Sally Yates is pretty happy with how this played out.  As epic FU stories go, hers was pretty amazing.  Not many of us get to go out in a blaze of glory for defending the US Constitution.  She fell on her sword for this one, and that's a story you can tell your grandkids.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 08:23:34 PM by sol »

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1902 on: February 09, 2017, 07:50:06 PM »
...Of course, Trump is trying to strip all of the current job protections for career civil servants, too.  He apparently pines for the olden days before merit reviews, when  government employment was a reward for party loyalists and nepotism and corruption were Business As Usual.

I received a government job offer (non politically appointed, civil service engineering job) immediately after the election, and this definitely weighed in my decision to decline the offer. I'm not convinced he'll be able to strip all the protections, but I'm sure government employment will change greatly.
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lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1903 on: February 09, 2017, 08:33:27 PM »
If the courts strike down Trump's executive order as unconstitutional and all of the appeals to the contrary are exhausted, does Sally Yates get her job back?

She was fired for failing to enforce/defend a legal order. But if the order is found to be illegal... then she was right and she shouldn't have tried to enforce/defend it.

The more immediate impact is that all of the lawsuits from green-card and visa holders will move ahead.  I bet the US Gov't becomes a cash pinata for emotional and job-related damages, lawyers are going to have a field day and an interesting precedent will be set on being able to directly challenge Executive Orders.  Who knew that Making America Great Again would start with making immigrants and lawyers rich and powerful?  Talk about unintended consequences!

Even if sovereign immunity can be argued to be inapplicable for those cases, I'm pretty sure punitive damages could not be claimed. At worst, the cost would be some re-booked plane tickets, a couple days in wages, and a few nights in a hotel per case.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1904 on: February 09, 2017, 09:17:51 PM »
If the courts strike down Trump's executive order as unconstitutional and all of the appeals to the contrary are exhausted, does Sally Yates get her job back?

She was fired for failing to enforce/defend a legal order. But if the order is found to be illegal... then she was right and she shouldn't have tried to enforce/defend it.

The more immediate impact is that all of the lawsuits from green-card and visa holders will move ahead.  I bet the US Gov't becomes a cash pinata for emotional and job-related damages, lawyers are going to have a field day and an interesting precedent will be set on being able to directly challenge Executive Orders.  Who knew that Making America Great Again would start with making immigrants and lawyers rich and powerful?  Talk about unintended consequences!

Even if sovereign immunity can be argued to be inapplicable for those cases, I'm pretty sure punitive damages could not be claimed. At worst, the cost would be some re-booked plane tickets, a couple days in wages, and a few nights in a hotel per case.

I'd love to have a real lawyer weigh in, because this could be new territory.  What I argue is that the EO was so poorly written as to be indefensible.  Legally protected immigrants (you know, that have been in the system forever and are not terrorists) were turned away at the airport trying to get back to their homes and families.  They can obviously sue for undue hardship, if the Executive Order is ruled unconstitutional (which seems to be where Trump is headed with this).  This guy is so inept that the best thing you can do is take advantage of it as soon as possible. 

In 4 years, if Trump is up for re-election, there is going to be some crazy Russian Fancy Bear action.   And yes, our electorate is not sophisticated enough to not be manipulated.
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lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1905 on: February 09, 2017, 09:48:10 PM »
If the courts strike down Trump's executive order as unconstitutional and all of the appeals to the contrary are exhausted, does Sally Yates get her job back?

She was fired for failing to enforce/defend a legal order. But if the order is found to be illegal... then she was right and she shouldn't have tried to enforce/defend it.

The more immediate impact is that all of the lawsuits from green-card and visa holders will move ahead.  I bet the US Gov't becomes a cash pinata for emotional and job-related damages, lawyers are going to have a field day and an interesting precedent will be set on being able to directly challenge Executive Orders.  Who knew that Making America Great Again would start with making immigrants and lawyers rich and powerful?  Talk about unintended consequences!

Even if sovereign immunity can be argued to be inapplicable for those cases, I'm pretty sure punitive damages could not be claimed. At worst, the cost would be some re-booked plane tickets, a couple days in wages, and a few nights in a hotel per case.

I'd love to have a real lawyer weigh in, because this could be new territory.  What I argue is that the EO was so poorly written as to be indefensible.  Legally protected immigrants (you know, that have been in the system forever and are not terrorists) were turned away at the airport trying to get back to their homes and families.  They can obviously sue for undue hardship, if the Executive Order is ruled unconstitutional (which seems to be where Trump is headed with this).  This guy is so inept that the best thing you can do is take advantage of it as soon as possible. 

In 4 years, if Trump is up for re-election, there is going to be some crazy Russian Fancy Bear action.   And yes, our electorate is not sophisticated enough to not be manipulated.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1906 on: February 10, 2017, 02:19:12 AM »
If the courts strike down Trump's executive order as unconstitutional and all of the appeals to the contrary are exhausted, does Sally Yates get her job back?

She was fired for failing to enforce/defend a legal order. But if the order is found to be illegal... then she was right and she shouldn't have tried to enforce/defend it.

The more immediate impact is that all of the lawsuits from green-card and visa holders will move ahead.  I bet the US Gov't becomes a cash pinata for emotional and job-related damages, lawyers are going to have a field day and an interesting precedent will be set on being able to directly challenge Executive Orders.  Who knew that Making America Great Again would start with making immigrants and lawyers rich and powerful?  Talk about unintended consequences!

Even if sovereign immunity can be argued to be inapplicable for those cases, I'm pretty sure punitive damages could not be claimed. At worst, the cost would be some re-booked plane tickets, a couple days in wages, and a few nights in a hotel per case.

I'd love to have a real lawyer weigh in, because this could be new territory.  What I argue is that the EO was so poorly written as to be indefensible.  Legally protected immigrants (you know, that have been in the system forever and are not terrorists) were turned away at the airport trying to get back to their homes and families.  They can obviously sue for undue hardship, if the Executive Order is ruled unconstitutional (which seems to be where Trump is headed with this).  This guy is so inept that the best thing you can do is take advantage of it as soon as possible. 

In 4 years, if Trump is up for re-election, there is going to be some crazy Russian Fancy Bear action.   And yes, our electorate is not sophisticated enough to not be manipulated.
I would be trying to make the argument that the Executive Order was not just unconstitutional but obviously and deliberately unconstitutional with no legal defence, and therefore that Trump was acting outside the powers of the office of President when he signed it and is personally liable for damages.

ETA: I think the Executive Order probably meets the standard for Malfeasance in Public Office.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2017, 02:23:00 AM by former player »
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1907 on: February 10, 2017, 07:20:22 AM »
It's almost funny to see this play out.  I see stuff like this in my job, when a 'businessman' comes in on the $4 Billion engineering project and suggest that we meet schedule by skipping a step or two (to save maybe a few million).  The company would get sued for sure, when things go to hell (and they might even make a movie about it).  But I must admit, I've never had the prospect of that great businessman boss Tweet publicly that we are 'A BUNCH OF MORONS killing American Greatness!  Sad!' :)
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1908 on: February 10, 2017, 07:26:21 AM »
Quote
He won't really mind losing this one, though.  It's all political theater.  When the next terrorist attack or mass shooting inevitably comes, this buys him political cover.  He'll say he tried to stop it, but the liberal courts interfered because they hate America and love terrorists.  It won't matter if the attack is actually perpetrated by immigrants or Muslims or whatever.  All Presidents fear a terrorist attack on their watch, and now he doesn't have to fear that anymore.  He has built an excuse to blame his political opponents.  If there is an attack, it helps him win re-election.  If there's not, he hasn't really lost anything by being forced to adhere to the Constitutional balance of powers that he was always going to be bound by anyway.

Bingo. 

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1909 on: February 10, 2017, 08:56:07 AM »
Quote
He won't really mind losing this one, though.  It's all political theater.  When the next terrorist attack or mass shooting inevitably comes, this buys him political cover.  He'll say he tried to stop it, but the liberal courts interfered because they hate America and love terrorists.  It won't matter if the attack is actually perpetrated by immigrants or Muslims or whatever.  All Presidents fear a terrorist attack on their watch, and now he doesn't have to fear that anymore.  He has built an excuse to blame his political opponents.  If there is an attack, it helps him win re-election.  If there's not, he hasn't really lost anything by being forced to adhere to the Constitutional balance of powers that he was always going to be bound by anyway.

Bingo.

Agree, and truly hate the thought if it. 

golden1

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1910 on: February 10, 2017, 09:47:07 AM »
You always have to approach what Trump says with this idea in mind:  He uses language and words not to communicate ideas to people, but as a useful instrument to further his own agenda.  Truth means nothing to him and not to his supporters either.  Everything that comes out of his mouth is to evoke an emotion in either his supporters or his enemies.  This is why he seems so alien to a lot of people, including myself.  And it isn't some 3D chess voodoo either.  I think it's completely instinctual on his part.   


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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1911 on: February 10, 2017, 09:50:38 AM »
In 4 years, if Trump is up for re-election, there is going to be some crazy Russian Fancy Bear action.   And yes, our electorate is not sophisticated enough to not be manipulated.

They already have been, already are being manipulated. (There is this rebuttal to that article, but frankly it seems like more of a "nuh-uh!" knee-jerk reaction to the very idea that people are so easily manipulated. They seem to be taking it at face value that the only data the company would have collected was from Facebook, but there are so many other sources of Big Data that they could tap into. And that's just my first problem with their analysis, for an example.)

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1912 on: February 10, 2017, 04:25:06 PM »
He won't really mind losing this one, though.  It's all political theater.  When the next terrorist attack or mass shooting inevitably comes, this buys him political cover.  He'll say he tried to stop it, but the liberal courts interfered because they hate America and love terrorists.  It won't matter if the attack is actually perpetrated by immigrants or Muslims or whatever.  All Presidents fear a terrorist attack on their watch, and now he doesn't have to fear that anymore.  He has built an excuse to blame his political opponents.  If there is an attack, it helps him win re-election.  If there's not, he hasn't really lost anything by being forced to adhere to the Constitutional balance of powers that he was always going to be bound by anyway.

I disagree with this. I agree with you that Trump can't stand to lose, and that he'll TRY to argue that it's the court's fault if there's another terrorist attack, but I do not agree that he'll get away with it. There are lots of rubes in this country that believe stupid sh*t, but I'll say that most of Trump's bald-faced lies have been called out and people don't fall for it. It won't be hard to distinguish that if there's another terror attack that comes from someone not among those 7 banned countries, then it's not the court's fault and instead lies at Trump's feet for failing to stop it.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1913 on: February 10, 2017, 04:31:40 PM »
Hmmm, looks like parts of the Dossier have been confirmed. Particularly some of the communications. No one seems to want to comment except Spicer who simply chided CNN for more fake news. LMAO!!!! Time to get the boots on. Shits getting deep.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1914 on: February 10, 2017, 04:42:17 PM »
I disagree with this. I agree with you that Trump can't stand to lose, and that he'll TRY to argue that it's the court's fault if there's another terrorist attack, but I do not agree that he'll get away with it. There are lots of rubes in this country that believe stupid sh*t, but I'll say that most of Trump's bald-faced lies have been called out and people don't fall for it. It won't be hard to distinguish that if there's another terror attack that comes from someone not among those 7 banned countries, then it's not the court's fault and instead lies at Trump's feet for failing to stop it.

I wish I could agree, but read this today: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-supporters-bowling-green-massacre_us_589df750e4b0ab2d2b14cb22?7d38q1v176n4gqfr&

There's so much distraction, bait and switch and lies that regular people who don't have time to read or watch news don't know what's going on. Trump said today that he would have won NH if it wasn't for voter fraud... to distract from the rest of the shitty shit that is going on. And the media buys it, and the cycle continues.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1915 on: February 10, 2017, 04:58:43 PM »
^Coupled with his wife suing a paper.....this is quite the first family. I'm amazed. Our conservatives.....please dig Jeb or Cruz out of the dustbin and dust him off as a threat come 2020. This is horrible. Making Bush look like an effing statesman here.
Do you really think the Meliana lawsuit was as frivolous as a tweet by Donald? I for one find any publication that would publish derogatory, unfounded allegations that a woman was an escort to be despicable.  I don't see how defending oneself from slander is equatable to the off-the wall comments DJT makes on a daily basis.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1916 on: February 10, 2017, 05:02:48 PM »
I disagree with this. I agree with you that Trump can't stand to lose, and that he'll TRY to argue that it's the court's fault if there's another terrorist attack, but I do not agree that he'll get away with it. There are lots of rubes in this country that believe stupid sh*t, but I'll say that most of Trump's bald-faced lies have been called out and people don't fall for it. It won't be hard to distinguish that if there's another terror attack that comes from someone not among those 7 banned countries, then it's not the court's fault and instead lies at Trump's feet for failing to stop it.

I wish I could agree, but read this today: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-supporters-bowling-green-massacre_us_589df750e4b0ab2d2b14cb22?7d38q1v176n4gqfr&

There's so much distraction, bait and switch and lies that regular people who don't have time to read or watch news don't know what's going on. Trump said today that he would have won NH if it wasn't for voter fraud... to distract from the rest of the shitty shit that is going on. And the media buys it, and the cycle continues.
To the extent the first few weeks of POTUS Trump can be construed to have a strategy, it appears to be to shorten the OODA loop at the expense of all other considerations so as to choke the media and political adversaries with too many issues to effectively combat. It's actually a good strategy because even with the several big missteps so far, subsequent maneuvers have redirected and distracted the headlines away from previous blunders. There is a natural limit to this, however, since much of the noise has been generated by EOs and confirmation hearings. Once that cycle winds down and the system settles into its normal legislative intransigence, history will catch up with Trump.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1917 on: February 10, 2017, 05:13:50 PM »
Quote
He won't really mind losing this one, though.  It's all political theater.  When the next terrorist attack or mass shooting inevitably comes, this buys him political cover.  He'll say he tried to stop it, but the liberal courts interfered because they hate America and love terrorists.  It won't matter if the attack is actually perpetrated by immigrants or Muslims or whatever.  All Presidents fear a terrorist attack on their watch, and now he doesn't have to fear that anymore.  He has built an excuse to blame his political opponents.  If there is an attack, it helps him win re-election.  If there's not, he hasn't really lost anything by being forced to adhere to the Constitutional balance of powers that he was always going to be bound by anyway.

Bingo.

Agree, and truly hate the thought if it.
While I'm glad the checks and balances of our system work, sometimes it is still sadly amazing that Trump can keep winning, even with literally everyone against him. It's like some kind of dark magic.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1918 on: February 10, 2017, 05:22:05 PM »
He won't really mind losing this one, though.  It's all political theater.  When the next terrorist attack or mass shooting inevitably comes, this buys him political cover.  He'll say he tried to stop it, but the liberal courts interfered because they hate America and love terrorists.  It won't matter if the attack is actually perpetrated by immigrants or Muslims or whatever.  All Presidents fear a terrorist attack on their watch, and now he doesn't have to fear that anymore.  He has built an excuse to blame his political opponents.  If there is an attack, it helps him win re-election.  If there's not, he hasn't really lost anything by being forced to adhere to the Constitutional balance of powers that he was always going to be bound by anyway.

I disagree with this. I agree with you that Trump can't stand to lose, and that he'll TRY to argue that it's the court's fault if there's another terrorist attack, but I do not agree that he'll get away with it. There are lots of rubes in this country that believe stupid sh*t, but I'll say that most of Trump's bald-faced lies have been called out and people don't fall for it. It won't be hard to distinguish that if there's another terror attack that comes from someone not among those 7 banned countries, then it's not the court's fault and instead lies at Trump's feet for failing to stop it.
I don't know. Has there ever been a terrorist attack on American soil from non-citizens radicalized in these countries that this ban would have stopped? Some of the European ones, perhaps, but any of the attacks on American soil? I don't think that these facts are obvious enough to most people, and there are enough people that support strengthening the vetting process anyway, that these actions may not seem to be as ineffectual as they are.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1919 on: February 10, 2017, 05:35:59 PM »
Has there ever been a terrorist attack on American soil from non-citizens radicalized in these countries that this ban would have stopped?

I think our odds of having one in the next four years just went WAAAAY up, as a result of the Muslim ban.  We've spent 15 years trying to convince the global Muslim population that America is not their enemy, but Don has undone all of that work in a matter of days.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1920 on: February 10, 2017, 05:36:35 PM »
I disagree with this. I agree with you that Trump can't stand to lose, and that he'll TRY to argue that it's the court's fault if there's another terrorist attack, but I do not agree that he'll get away with it. There are lots of rubes in this country that believe stupid sh*t, but I'll say that most of Trump's bald-faced lies have been called out and people don't fall for it. It won't be hard to distinguish that if there's another terror attack that comes from someone not among those 7 banned countries, then it's not the court's fault and instead lies at Trump's feet for failing to stop it.

I wish I could agree, but read this today: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-supporters-bowling-green-massacre_us_589df750e4b0ab2d2b14cb22?7d38q1v176n4gqfr&

There's so much distraction, bait and switch and lies that regular people who don't have time to read or watch news don't know what's going on. Trump said today that he would have won NH if it wasn't for voter fraud... to distract from the rest of the shitty shit that is going on. And the media buys it, and the cycle continues.

But that article doesn't support the idea that everyone's bamboozled by Trump's lies and bullshit. It actually suggests the opposite...

Quote
"That makes a splashy headline, and it’s catnip for liberals who want to laugh at how stupid they think Trump supporters are. But it’s not good polling practice and should not be reported without substantial caveats about how the question was written and likely perceived by respondents. "
...
"In that frame of mind, how many Americans have probably heard of the Bowling Green Massacre, or know it’s a fake thing Kellyanne Conway made up last week? We don’t know. The poll didn’t ask that question. The question wasn’t even about whether people believed the fictional massacre happened"

At any rate, there will always be a good portion of people who support Trump despite all his bullshit. But I do not think he'd get away with claiming a terrorist attack by someone outside those countries in his executive order is the court's fault. I'm actually getting heartened by the dramatic response (i.e., outrage) to Trump in just 3 weeks. I think this could be the shortest presidency ever (short of assassinations in the past), and/or the Republicans will suffer a dramatic backlash the next election.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1921 on: February 10, 2017, 06:27:39 PM »
Has there ever been a terrorist attack on American soil from non-citizens radicalized in these countries that this ban would have stopped?

I think our odds of having one in the next four years just went WAAAAY up, as a result of the Muslim ban.  We've spent 15 years trying to convince the global Muslim population that America is not their enemy, but Don has undone all of that work in a matter of days.
I'm sure bombing their hospitals, droning their funerals, burning their country down and occupying their land for a decade and a half was just about to make them our friends. Darn.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1922 on: February 10, 2017, 06:39:39 PM »
Has there ever been a terrorist attack on American soil from non-citizens radicalized in these countries that this ban would have stopped?

I think our odds of having one in the next four years just went WAAAAY up, as a result of the Muslim ban.  We've spent 15 years trying to convince the global Muslim population that America is not their enemy, but Don has undone all of that work in a matter of days.
I'm sure bombing their hospitals, droning their funerals, burning their country down and occupying their land for a decade and a half was just about to make them our friends. Darn.
I'm not convinced that matters. The people actually doing the killing from the Middle East are crazy and irrational (their leaders might be more rational and calculating though!). The US could be carpet bombing with gourmet chocolate eclairs instead of bombs and almost all of these people would still be insane killers. There is a fundamental tension between the cultures in that region and the cultures of the West. ME Islamic culture would be just fine as a stagnant culture if not for the comparatively open and technologically progressive culture of the West laying bare the sickness and deficiencies of the ME (recall some countries in the ME did not even ban slavery until the 1960s-70s). There is nowhere to hide your crazy ideologies and punitive subjugation of women in the YouTube/Facebook/twitter era.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1923 on: February 10, 2017, 07:00:14 PM »
Has there ever been a terrorist attack on American soil from non-citizens radicalized in these countries that this ban would have stopped?

I think our odds of having one in the next four years just went WAAAAY up, as a result of the Muslim ban.  We've spent 15 years trying to convince the global Muslim population that America is not their enemy, but Don has undone all of that work in a matter of days.
I'm sure bombing their hospitals, droning their funerals, burning their country down and occupying their land for a decade and a half was just about to make them our friends. Darn.
I'm not convinced that matters. The people actually doing the killing from the Middle East are crazy and irrational (their leaders might be more rational and calculating though!). The US could be carpet bombing with gourmet chocolate eclairs instead of bombs and almost all of these people would still be insane killers. There is a fundamental tension between the cultures in that region and the cultures of the West. ME Islamic culture would be just fine as a stagnant culture if not for the comparatively open and technologically progressive culture of the West laying bare the sickness and deficiencies of the ME (recall some countries in the ME did not even ban slavery until the 1960s-70s). There is nowhere to hide your crazy ideologies and punitive subjugation of women in the YouTube/Facebook/twitter era.
Sol may have a point though; there have been fewer attacks, and fewer terrorist casualties in the United States than there have been in Europe over the past few years. Could it be that we were actually doing something right?
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accolay

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1924 on: February 10, 2017, 07:20:53 PM »
I disagree with this. I agree with you that Trump can't stand to lose, and that he'll TRY to argue that it's the court's fault if there's another terrorist attack, but I do not agree that he'll get away with it. There are lots of rubes in this country that believe stupid sh*t, but I'll say that most of Trump's bald-faced lies have been called out and people don't fall for it. It won't be hard to distinguish that if there's another terror attack that comes from someone not among those 7 banned countries, then it's not the court's fault and instead lies at Trump's feet for failing to stop it.

I wish I could agree, but read this today: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-supporters-bowling-green-massacre_us_589df750e4b0ab2d2b14cb22?7d38q1v176n4gqfr&

There's so much distraction, bait and switch and lies that regular people who don't have time to read or watch news don't know what's going on. Trump said today that he would have won NH if it wasn't for voter fraud... to distract from the rest of the shitty shit that is going on. And the media buys it, and the cycle continues.

But that article doesn't support the idea that everyone's bamboozled by Trump's lies and bullshit. It actually suggests the opposite...

Quote
"That makes a splashy headline, and it’s catnip for liberals who want to laugh at how stupid they think Trump supporters are. But it’s not good polling practice and should not be reported without substantial caveats about how the question was written and likely perceived by respondents. "
...
"In that frame of mind, how many Americans have probably heard of the Bowling Green Massacre, or know it’s a fake thing Kellyanne Conway made up last week? We don’t know. The poll didn’t ask that question. The question wasn’t even about whether people believed the fictional massacre happened"

At any rate, there will always be a good portion of people who support Trump despite all his bullshit. But I do not think he'd get away with claiming a terrorist attack by someone outside those countries in his executive order is the court's fault. I'm actually getting heartened by the dramatic response (i.e., outrage) to Trump in just 3 weeks. I think this could be the shortest presidency ever (short of assassinations in the past), and/or the Republicans will suffer a dramatic backlash the next election.

My point was that regular people don't even have time to figure out what's bullshit or not. They'll fall for it and can't call it out because they don't know it's fake, just like some of the news during the election.

Quote
The average American doesn’t spend hours of their day glued to Twitter and cable networks watching all the latest developments in Washington, D.C. Most are busy living their lives, caring for families, working non-political jobs or all of the above.

Those who will support Trump no matter what will absolutely believe it's the courts fault if (when?) something happens. They're thinking about a new ban instead of pursuing it in the courts.

Kris

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1925 on: February 11, 2017, 09:34:03 AM »
The door to door raids have begun. This is absolutely horrifying.

"“I am asking ICE to clarify whether these individuals are in fact dangerous, violent threats to our communities, and not people who are here peacefully raising families and contributing to our state,” Castro said in a statement Friday night.

Hiba Ghalib, an immigration lawyer in Atlanta, said the ICE detentions were causing “mass confusion” in the immigrant community. She said she had heard reports of ICE agents going door-to-door in one largely Hispanic neighborhood, asking people to present their papers."

The worst part is that there will still be people who think these actions are A-ok, and will defend Trump no matter what.

I think Godwin's Law is going to have to be suspended for the duration of the Trump administration. If you are not outraged, you are certainly not paying attention. At this point, we should ALL be out in the streets.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/federal-agents-conduct-sweeping-immigration-enforcement-raids-in-at-least-6-states/2017/02/10/4b9f443a-efc8-11e6-b4ff-ac2cf509efe5_story.html?utm_term=.f81a4bccce4d


Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

dividendman

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1926 on: February 11, 2017, 10:26:51 AM »
The door to door raids have begun. This is absolutely horrifying.

"“I am asking ICE to clarify whether these individuals are in fact dangerous, violent threats to our communities, and not people who are here peacefully raising families and contributing to our state,” Castro said in a statement Friday night.

Hiba Ghalib, an immigration lawyer in Atlanta, said the ICE detentions were causing “mass confusion” in the immigrant community. She said she had heard reports of ICE agents going door-to-door in one largely Hispanic neighborhood, asking people to present their papers."

The worst part is that there will still be people who think these actions are A-ok, and will defend Trump no matter what.

I think Godwin's Law is going to have to be suspended for the duration of the Trump administration. If you are not outraged, you are certainly not paying attention. At this point, we should ALL be out in the streets.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/federal-agents-conduct-sweeping-immigration-enforcement-raids-in-at-least-6-states/2017/02/10/4b9f443a-efc8-11e6-b4ff-ac2cf509efe5_story.html?utm_term=.f81a4bccce4d

While I'm all for Trump bashing, his numbers are kinda low for the first few weeks. Also an immigration lawyer probably isn't the best source of information regarding how the ICE folks are operating. Finally, if you're an illegal alien it is obviously a risk you take to stay in the US that you may be deported.

Obama deported over 1.5 million people in his first term. That's about 7 thousand a week, that's not including people who were turned back at the border or self deported. In Obama's first term there was also no prioritization of who to go after so families and mothers and everything were sent away.

In his second term the deportations actually went up with a record setting 400 thousand in 2012. The Washington post actually references this in the same article you linked:

Quote
The Obama administration conducted a spate of raids and also pursued a more aggressive deportation policy than any previous president, sending more than 400,000 people back to their birth countries at the height of his deportations in 2012. The public outcry over the lengthy detentions and deportations of women, children and people with minor offenses led President Obama in his second term to prioritize convicted criminals for deportation.

So, if you're going to suspend Godwin's law, then Obama, at least for now, is more Hitleresque in his deportations than Trump (and any other president).

Gin1984

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1927 on: February 11, 2017, 10:53:19 AM »
The door to door raids have begun. This is absolutely horrifying.

"“I am asking ICE to clarify whether these individuals are in fact dangerous, violent threats to our communities, and not people who are here peacefully raising families and contributing to our state,” Castro said in a statement Friday night.

Hiba Ghalib, an immigration lawyer in Atlanta, said the ICE detentions were causing “mass confusion” in the immigrant community. She said she had heard reports of ICE agents going door-to-door in one largely Hispanic neighborhood, asking people to present their papers."

The worst part is that there will still be people who think these actions are A-ok, and will defend Trump no matter what.

I think Godwin's Law is going to have to be suspended for the duration of the Trump administration. If you are not outraged, you are certainly not paying attention. At this point, we should ALL be out in the streets.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/federal-agents-conduct-sweeping-immigration-enforcement-raids-in-at-least-6-states/2017/02/10/4b9f443a-efc8-11e6-b4ff-ac2cf509efe5_story.html?utm_term=.f81a4bccce4d

While I'm all for Trump bashing, his numbers are kinda low for the first few weeks. Also an immigration lawyer probably isn't the best source of information regarding how the ICE folks are operating. Finally, if you're an illegal alien it is obviously a risk you take to stay in the US that you may be deported.

Obama deported over 1.5 million people in his first term. That's about 7 thousand a week, that's not including people who were turned back at the border or self deported. In Obama's first term there was also no prioritization of who to go after so families and mothers and everything were sent away.

In his second term the deportations actually went up with a record setting 400 thousand in 2012. The Washington post actually references this in the same article you linked:

Quote
The Obama administration conducted a spate of raids and also pursued a more aggressive deportation policy than any previous president, sending more than 400,000 people back to their birth countries at the height of his deportations in 2012. The public outcry over the lengthy detentions and deportations of women, children and people with minor offenses led President Obama in his second term to prioritize convicted criminals for deportation.

So, if you're going to suspend Godwin's law, then Obama, at least for now, is more Hitleresque in his deportations than Trump (and any other president).
I think you missed the part about demanding papers from anyone of a certain look.  My daughter is Hispanic and was born in the US to two US citizens.  What right does anyone have to come to my door and tell her to prove herself?  In the US, none.  But that is what is being done.  And I do have serious issue with Obama and immigration but that does not change what is going on here.  It is not about deportation but requiring papers for legal citizens.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1928 on: February 11, 2017, 11:10:35 AM »
The door to door raids have begun. This is absolutely horrifying.

"“I am asking ICE to clarify whether these individuals are in fact dangerous, violent threats to our communities, and not people who are here peacefully raising families and contributing to our state,” Castro said in a statement Friday night.

Hiba Ghalib, an immigration lawyer in Atlanta, said the ICE detentions were causing “mass confusion” in the immigrant community. She said she had heard reports of ICE agents going door-to-door in one largely Hispanic neighborhood, asking people to present their papers."

The worst part is that there will still be people who think these actions are A-ok, and will defend Trump no matter what.

I think Godwin's Law is going to have to be suspended for the duration of the Trump administration. If you are not outraged, you are certainly not paying attention. At this point, we should ALL be out in the streets.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/federal-agents-conduct-sweeping-immigration-enforcement-raids-in-at-least-6-states/2017/02/10/4b9f443a-efc8-11e6-b4ff-ac2cf509efe5_story.html?utm_term=.f81a4bccce4d

While I'm all for Trump bashing, his numbers are kinda low for the first few weeks. Also an immigration lawyer probably isn't the best source of information regarding how the ICE folks are operating. Finally, if you're an illegal alien it is obviously a risk you take to stay in the US that you may be deported.

Obama deported over 1.5 million people in his first term. That's about 7 thousand a week, that's not including people who were turned back at the border or self deported. In Obama's first term there was also no prioritization of who to go after so families and mothers and everything were sent away.

In his second term the deportations actually went up with a record setting 400 thousand in 2012. The Washington post actually references this in the same article you linked:

Quote
The Obama administration conducted a spate of raids and also pursued a more aggressive deportation policy than any previous president, sending more than 400,000 people back to their birth countries at the height of his deportations in 2012. The public outcry over the lengthy detentions and deportations of women, children and people with minor offenses led President Obama in his second term to prioritize convicted criminals for deportation.

So, if you're going to suspend Godwin's law, then Obama, at least for now, is more Hitleresque in his deportations than Trump (and any other president).
I think you missed the part about demanding papers from anyone of a certain look.  My daughter is Hispanic and was born in the US to two US citizens.  What right does anyone have to come to my door and tell her to prove herself?  In the US, none.  But that is what is being done.  And I do have serious issue with Obama and immigration but that does not change what is going on here.  It is not about deportation but requiring papers for legal citizens.

Are you referring to this quote by Hiba Ghalib?  "She said she had heard reports of ICE agents going door-to-door in one largely Hispanic neighborhood, asking people to present their papers."

Disregarding whether it's desirable or legal, I'd be surprised if ICE has the resources to do what she suggests she has "heard" is happening.  You indicate that is what is being done, do you have a source other than that quote? 

dividendman

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1929 on: February 11, 2017, 11:23:32 AM »
I think you missed the part about demanding papers from anyone of a certain look.  My daughter is Hispanic and was born in the US to two US citizens.  What right does anyone have to come to my door and tell her to prove herself?  In the US, none.  But that is what is being done.  And I do have serious issue with Obama and immigration but that does not change what is going on here.  It is not about deportation but requiring papers for legal citizens.

I didn't miss that part. I said:

Quote
Also an immigration lawyer probably isn't the best source of information regarding how the ICE folks are operating.

And even if this is happening (which I doubt), the police are allowed to ask for anything, you need to know your rights and decline requests.

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1930 on: February 11, 2017, 11:36:33 AM »
The door to door raids have begun. This is absolutely horrifying.

"“I am asking ICE to clarify whether these individuals are in fact dangerous, violent threats to our communities, and not people who are here peacefully raising families and contributing to our state,” Castro said in a statement Friday night.

Hiba Ghalib, an immigration lawyer in Atlanta, said the ICE detentions were causing “mass confusion” in the immigrant community. She said she had heard reports of ICE agents going door-to-door in one largely Hispanic neighborhood, asking people to present their papers."

The worst part is that there will still be people who think these actions are A-ok, and will defend Trump no matter what.

I think Godwin's Law is going to have to be suspended for the duration of the Trump administration. If you are not outraged, you are certainly not paying attention. At this point, we should ALL be out in the streets.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/federal-agents-conduct-sweeping-immigration-enforcement-raids-in-at-least-6-states/2017/02/10/4b9f443a-efc8-11e6-b4ff-ac2cf509efe5_story.html?utm_term=.f81a4bccce4d

While I'm all for Trump bashing, his numbers are kinda low for the first few weeks. Also an immigration lawyer probably isn't the best source of information regarding how the ICE folks are operating. Finally, if you're an illegal alien it is obviously a risk you take to stay in the US that you may be deported.

Obama deported over 1.5 million people in his first term. That's about 7 thousand a week, that's not including people who were turned back at the border or self deported. In Obama's first term there was also no prioritization of who to go after so families and mothers and everything were sent away.

In his second term the deportations actually went up with a record setting 400 thousand in 2012. The Washington post actually references this in the same article you linked:

Quote
The Obama administration conducted a spate of raids and also pursued a more aggressive deportation policy than any previous president, sending more than 400,000 people back to their birth countries at the height of his deportations in 2012. The public outcry over the lengthy detentions and deportations of women, children and people with minor offenses led President Obama in his second term to prioritize convicted criminals for deportation.

So, if you're going to suspend Godwin's law, then Obama, at least for now, is more Hitleresque in his deportations than Trump (and any other president).
You would think that after ICE clearly, repeatedly stated that this was routine, and the planning stages were begun under the Obama administration, that people would have a hard time pinning this on Trump. I guess we are post fact.
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Gin1984

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1931 on: February 11, 2017, 11:38:41 AM »
I think you missed the part about demanding papers from anyone of a certain look.  My daughter is Hispanic and was born in the US to two US citizens.  What right does anyone have to come to my door and tell her to prove herself?  In the US, none.  But that is what is being done.  And I do have serious issue with Obama and immigration but that does not change what is going on here.  It is not about deportation but requiring papers for legal citizens.

I didn't miss that part. I said:

Quote
Also an immigration lawyer probably isn't the best source of information regarding how the ICE folks are operating.

And even if this is happening (which I doubt), the police are allowed to ask for anything, you need to know your rights and decline requests.
Given I know a person who was "detained" in Arizona for being Hispanics after the GOP passed their law there and not having a way to prove he is a citizen and was only released after his wife (a white American citizen) found an immigration lawyer, yes I do believe that is how ICE is acting.  I also think immigration lawyers are one of the best resources for what is happening because they are there and have little reason to lie. 
I also know of multiple cases where people were detained and had to prove citizenship as well as a few cases where Americans were deported illegally.   Our rights are being trampled, and it is getting worse.  In the Arizona case I could appeal the Feds, I know can't.

GuitarStv

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1932 on: February 11, 2017, 11:42:36 AM »
The door to door raids have begun. This is absolutely horrifying.

"“I am asking ICE to clarify whether these individuals are in fact dangerous, violent threats to our communities, and not people who are here peacefully raising families and contributing to our state,” Castro said in a statement Friday night.

Hiba Ghalib, an immigration lawyer in Atlanta, said the ICE detentions were causing “mass confusion” in the immigrant community. She said she had heard reports of ICE agents going door-to-door in one largely Hispanic neighborhood, asking people to present their papers."

The worst part is that there will still be people who think these actions are A-ok, and will defend Trump no matter what.

I think Godwin's Law is going to have to be suspended for the duration of the Trump administration. If you are not outraged, you are certainly not paying attention. At this point, we should ALL be out in the streets.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/federal-agents-conduct-sweeping-immigration-enforcement-raids-in-at-least-6-states/2017/02/10/4b9f443a-efc8-11e6-b4ff-ac2cf509efe5_story.html?utm_term=.f81a4bccce4d

While I'm all for Trump bashing, his numbers are kinda low for the first few weeks. Also an immigration lawyer probably isn't the best source of information regarding how the ICE folks are operating. Finally, if you're an illegal alien it is obviously a risk you take to stay in the US that you may be deported.

Obama deported over 1.5 million people in his first term. That's about 7 thousand a week, that's not including people who were turned back at the border or self deported. In Obama's first term there was also no prioritization of who to go after so families and mothers and everything were sent away.

In his second term the deportations actually went up with a record setting 400 thousand in 2012. The Washington post actually references this in the same article you linked:

Quote
The Obama administration conducted a spate of raids and also pursued a more aggressive deportation policy than any previous president, sending more than 400,000 people back to their birth countries at the height of his deportations in 2012. The public outcry over the lengthy detentions and deportations of women, children and people with minor offenses led President Obama in his second term to prioritize convicted criminals for deportation.

So, if you're going to suspend Godwin's law, then Obama, at least for now, is more Hitleresque in his deportations than Trump (and any other president).
You would think that after ICE clearly, repeatedly stated that this was routine, and the planning stages were begun under the Obama administration, that people would have a hard time pinning this on Trump. I guess we are post fact.

Calling anybody Hitler is silly at this moment.

It's a valid point that Obama was pretty heavy handed with his deportations (particularly at their highest point in the eight years he was in charge).  That's certainly on him, and he should be held accountable for it.  Given Trump's rhetoric, it's understandable that people have serious concerns about the actions that will be implemented during his presidency.  Hopefully he'll be held accountable for his actions as well.

dividendman

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1933 on: February 11, 2017, 11:45:47 AM »
You would think that after ICE clearly, repeatedly stated that this was routine, and the planning stages were begun under the Obama administration, that people would have a hard time pinning this on Trump. I guess we are post fact.

As a political tool, I think the Democrats (and other folks) are doing the right thing pining it on Trump. They should blame everything on Trump.

But... we're in the MMM forums, I don't want to just write things for political reasons here, it doesn't make sense when trying to actually discuss issues.

Yes GuitarStv, fair Hitler comparisons are a long, long, way off.

sol

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1934 on: February 11, 2017, 11:55:13 AM »
You would think that after ICE clearly, repeatedly stated that this was routine, and the planning stages were begun under the Obama administration, that people would have a hard time pinning this on Trump. I guess we are post fact.

I don't think this is in any way a sign of being "post-fact" in the way that Conway and Spicer are "post-fact" but I do agree that Trump is going to get less leeway on some of these things than Obama got.

Obama seriously considered the Keystone pipeline, for example, and stalled on a verdict for over a year.  If he had approved it, most of America would begrudgingly accepted that he's a very smart man who made a careful decision and decided the negative consequences of the pipeline were outweighed by the benefits.  When Trump makes that decision, it will come off as flippant and deliberately inflammatory, like he'll say tweet "Drill baby drill!  Fuck the earth and all of the liberals on it!"
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 11:57:05 AM by sol »

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1935 on: February 11, 2017, 12:03:11 PM »

Calling anybody Hitler is silly at this moment.

It's a valid point that Obama was pretty heavy handed with his deportations (particularly at their highest point in the eight years he was in charge).  That's certainly on him, and he should be held accountable for it.  Given Trump's rhetoric, it's understandable that people have serious concerns about the actions that will be implemented during his presidency.  Hopefully he'll be held accountable for his actions as well.

It's infuriating. Obama was a real hawk on deportations - but to hear the Trump supporters in my family talk, you'd think he swung the borders wide open. My family fails to baseline their opinions with the facts. (Not just on immigration) ... So Obama gets shit from some people for being too harsh deporting so many illegal immigrants, but gets zero credit among people who want to clamp down on illegal immigration. This, even though he deported 2.5M people during his tenure .... 25% more than Bush over the same amount of time.

I'm not personally invested in this issue. I figure if people are in the US illegally, they probably shouldn't be there. But I also understand that there's a whole underground economy that relies on them. I also know that many of them contribute to our social security system (paying into the system between $7B and 12B in 2010 for example) without themselves benefiting from it.

The thing that annoys me is this willingness to spew opinions without so much as inquiring as to the underlying facts. You can't argue policy unless you first agree on your premises. It's nuts.

So on this issue especially - I just stand back and stay out of it. Well - except here. But y'all are solid conversationalists.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1936 on: February 11, 2017, 12:21:20 PM »

Calling anybody Hitler is silly at this moment.

It's a valid point that Obama was pretty heavy handed with his deportations (particularly at their highest point in the eight years he was in charge).  That's certainly on him, and he should be held accountable for it.  Given Trump's rhetoric, it's understandable that people have serious concerns about the actions that will be implemented during his presidency.  Hopefully he'll be held accountable for his actions as well.

It's infuriating. Obama was a real hawk on deportations - but to hear the Trump supporters in my family talk, you'd think he swung the borders wide open. My family fails to baseline their opinions with the facts. (Not just on immigration) ... So Obama gets shit from some people for being too harsh deporting so many illegal immigrants, but gets zero credit among people who want to clamp down on illegal immigration. This, even though he deported 2.5M people during his tenure .... 25% more than Bush over the same amount of time.


It is weird how far perception is from reality on this topic. One of Obama's planks was immigration reform, and it was one area where what he promised wound up being so far from what he delivered.  As noted, deportions were quite high throughout his presidency.
Despite this, one of DJT's planks was far more extreme, and he accused the Obama administration of virtually open boarders. His supporters point to this as reason why we need "extreme vetting" and a complete shutdown in some cases.
Almost as a knee-jerk reaction many democrats are talking about the Obama policies as the immigration ideal, as if things were peachy for non-citizens during the previous 8 years.


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Midwest

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1937 on: February 11, 2017, 12:25:25 PM »
I think you missed the part about demanding papers from anyone of a certain look.  My daughter is Hispanic and was born in the US to two US citizens.  What right does anyone have to come to my door and tell her to prove herself?  In the US, none.  But that is what is being done.  And I do have serious issue with Obama and immigration but that does not change what is going on here.  It is not about deportation but requiring papers for legal citizens.

I didn't miss that part. I said:

Quote
Also an immigration lawyer probably isn't the best source of information regarding how the ICE folks are operating.

And even if this is happening (which I doubt), the police are allowed to ask for anything, you need to know your rights and decline requests.
Given I know a person who was "detained" in Arizona for being Hispanics after the GOP passed their law there and not having a way to prove he is a citizen and was only released after his wife (a white American citizen) found an immigration lawyer, yes I do believe that is how ICE is acting. 

I would be interested in hearing more about this incident.  Please note, enforcement actions pre-date Trump.

I also think immigration lawyers are one of the best resources for what is happening because they are there and have little reason to lie. 

I would say the majority of immigration lawyers have an anti-enforcement bias on the topic of immigration laws.  In addition, immigration lawyers have a financial incentive to motivate those in need of their services.  Given these prejudices, I find the quote from the attorney to be suspect.  On top of that, the attorney wasn't given a first hand account, just something they had heard.


I also know of multiple cases where people were detained and had to prove citizenship as well as a few cases where Americans were deported illegally.   Our rights are being trampled, and it is getting worse.  In the Arizona case I could appeal the Feds, I know can't.

Do you have any sources or articles?  If American citizens are being harassed or deported, I would hope that would be front page news.

What I have seen thus far from many sources is a lot of hyperbole.  As many other have stated, we have been deporting for quite some time.  I haven't, thus far, seen a dramatic increase under Trump.

Kris

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1938 on: February 11, 2017, 12:40:10 PM »
Here is a post by a person named Haisan Elsharkawi that was just posted on Facebook.

THIS IS AN IMPORTANT POST DO NOT IGNORE: Tonight I was about to board my flight, and as I was about to step on to the plane, an officer came up to me and started asking me questions like "where are you going" and "why". As I was answering the questions, he motioned for me to get out of the line and walk over to a table. At the table there were 5 other officers waiting. They began asking me numerous questions very roughly. After they continued to ask questions without explaining their reason, I said "Do I need my lawyer?" They got really angry and threw my belongings out of my bag, searched them and took my phone. Then they demanded that I tell them what my password was in order to unlock my phone and search it. I said No. They accused me of hiding something suspicious because I asked for my rights (lawyer). Then they told me to place my hands on the table and demanded again that I unlock my phone for them to search. Again I said no. I told them I am not comfortable with their treatment and asked again for a lawyer. They kept threatening me saying "you will see what's going to happen to you. We will make you miss your flight, and we will make this really bad for you." After saying again that I refuse to unlock my phone, they told me to place my hands on my head, then they handcuffed me and began taking me away. At this point, I feared for my safety and I announced "I am being detained and they are not allowing me to have my lawyer. I am being detained and they are not allowing me to have my lawyer." After saying that, the officer twisted my arm and forced my body down. Then they said "we are going to take him downstairs". After they brought me to a downstairs, they put me in a jail cell. They interrogated me about HOW I became a citizen, where I work, where my wife works, why I was traveling, and again told me to unlock my phone. Again I refused and told them it was my right to have a lawyer, and again they said if I need a lawyer, then I must be guilty of something. They sent in numerous people to the room I was being interrogated in and finally a HOMELAND SECURITY agent came into the interrogation room saying that they are trying to protect the country and that if I didn't unlock my phone for them to search, then they would take it from me, send it to headquarters and give it back in 1 month. After 4 hours of being interrogated, I unlocked my phone. They searched through my facebook, my messages, my emails, my pictures and began asking me questions about what they found in my phone, like my business, where I work, where I buy my merchandise from and on. After hours of being interrogated and missing my flight, they released me. I immediately called my lawyer and will continue a process of filing a lawsuit. For those of you who say "the issue in America is no problem, it will be fine" you need to WAKE UP.
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#CNN #LAX #MUSLIM_BAN #ANDERSON_COOPER #CAIR #VAN_JONES #ACLU #LA_TIMES
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

dividendman

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1939 on: February 11, 2017, 01:30:33 PM »
Here is a post by a person named Haisan Elsharkawi that was just posted on Facebook.
...

I'm not sure what this anecdote adds to the conversation. Is this an impact of Trump? Perhaps. Have law enforcement officials generally targeted arabs/muslims since 2001? Probably.

There are entire websites dedicated to "TSA Horror Stories" that list out in detail all sorts of apparently illegal actions taken by the TSA since the Department of Homeland Security was created. I don't think we can blame that on Trump. There are plenty of stories of when Obama was in office too, and Bush.

Again, as a political tool, sure, blame Trump. For having a discussion I would need facts to come to the conclusion that government interactions are materially worse for American citizens of arab/muslim descent because Trump is in office.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1940 on: February 11, 2017, 01:35:02 PM »
Here is a post by a person named Haisan Elsharkawi that was just posted on Facebook.
...

I'm not sure what this anecdote adds to the conversation. Is this an impact of Trump? Perhaps. Have law enforcement officials generally targeted arabs/muslims since 2001? Probably.

There are entire websites dedicated to "TSA Horror Stories" that list out in detail all sorts of apparently illegal actions taken by the TSA since the Department of Homeland Security was created. I don't think we can blame that on Trump. There are plenty of stories of when Obama was in office too, and Bush.

Again, as a political tool, sure, blame Trump. For having a discussion I would need facts to come to the conclusion that government interactions are materially worse for American citizens of arab/muslim descent because Trump is in office.

How about, "These things should not be happening under any administration, Republican, Democrat, or other, so let's stand up to it"?
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1941 on: February 11, 2017, 01:49:39 PM »
My understanding is that a high proportion of the Obama deportations were people caught coming across the border who were returned almost immediately and that his deportation figures were higher because previously those people hadn't been included in the figures.  Is that right?  If so, then an increased emphasis on deporting those who have been established in the USA for a period of time could be down to the new Trump Executive Order and the new atmosphere on immigration created from the top.  A change of policy along those lines would be far more personally disruptive to far more people with settled connections within the USA.  Whether or not the overall figures for deportation will be higher is probably unknown so far: the change in policy may prove to be less effective overall if it has displaced personnel from operations targeted on new arrivals over the border.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1942 on: February 11, 2017, 02:49:59 PM »
I think you missed the part about demanding papers from anyone of a certain look.  My daughter is Hispanic and was born in the US to two US citizens.  What right does anyone have to come to my door and tell her to prove herself?  In the US, none.  But that is what is being done.  And I do have serious issue with Obama and immigration but that does not change what is going on here.  It is not about deportation but requiring papers for legal citizens.

I didn't miss that part. I said:

Quote
Also an immigration lawyer probably isn't the best source of information regarding how the ICE folks are operating.

And even if this is happening (which I doubt), the police are allowed to ask for anything, you need to know your rights and decline requests.
Given I know a person who was "detained" in Arizona for being Hispanics after the GOP passed their law there and not having a way to prove he is a citizen and was only released after his wife (a white American citizen) found an immigration lawyer, yes I do believe that is how ICE is acting. 

I would be interested in hearing more about this incident.  Please note, enforcement actions pre-date Trump.

I also think immigration lawyers are one of the best resources for what is happening because they are there and have little reason to lie. 

I would say the majority of immigration lawyers have an anti-enforcement bias on the topic of immigration laws.  In addition, immigration lawyers have a financial incentive to motivate those in need of their services.  Given these prejudices, I find the quote from the attorney to be suspect.  On top of that, the attorney wasn't given a first hand account, just something they had heard.


I also know of multiple cases where people were detained and had to prove citizenship as well as a few cases where Americans were deported illegally.   Our rights are being trampled, and it is getting worse.  In the Arizona case I could appeal the Feds, I know can't.

Do you have any sources or articles?  If American citizens are being harassed or deported, I would hope that would be front page news.

What I have seen thus far from many sources is a lot of hyperbole.  As many other have stated, we have been deporting for quite some time.  I haven't, thus far, seen a dramatic increase under Trump.
Here is the google results: https://www.google.com/#q=american+citizen+accidentally+deported
And, yes I agree there have long been issues, I just trust the older administrations (Bushs included) to deal with the issue more properly if it was brought up.  I'm not saying any of them did it perfectly just that it is getting worse.
And what more would you like to know about the incident? 
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 02:51:48 PM by Gin1984 »

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1943 on: February 11, 2017, 02:52:58 PM »
My understanding is that a high proportion of the Obama deportations were people caught coming across the border who were returned almost immediately and that his deportation figures were higher because previously those people hadn't been included in the figures.  Is that right?  If so, then an increased emphasis on deporting those who have been established in the USA for a period of time could be down to the new Trump Executive Order and the new atmosphere on immigration created from the top.  A change of policy along those lines would be far more personally disruptive to far more people with settled connections within the USA.  Whether or not the overall figures for deportation will be higher is probably unknown so far: the change in policy may prove to be less effective overall if it has displaced personnel from operations targeted on new arrivals over the border.

I would think a policy of enforcing the law against those caught here illegally (both at the border and otherwise) and those employing them, would be more effective at preventing such behavior than a policy of enforcing the law only at the border.  Once free of the border, the vast majority of those in are never sent back. 

If you know you have little chance of getting sent back once here and little punishment if caught trying to get in illegally, why not keep trying until you get in? 

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1944 on: February 11, 2017, 04:30:08 PM »
Here is a post by a person named Haisan Elsharkawi that was just posted on Facebook.
...

I'm not sure what this anecdote adds to the conversation. Is this an impact of Trump? Perhaps. Have law enforcement officials generally targeted arabs/muslims since 2001? Probably.

There are entire websites dedicated to "TSA Horror Stories" that list out in detail all sorts of apparently illegal actions taken by the TSA since the Department of Homeland Security was created. I don't think we can blame that on Trump. There are plenty of stories of when Obama was in office too, and Bush.

Again, as a political tool, sure, blame Trump. For having a discussion I would need facts to come to the conclusion that government interactions are materially worse for American citizens of arab/muslim descent because Trump is in office.

How about, "These things should not be happening under any administration, Republican, Democrat, or other, so let's stand up to it"?
While true, it is off topic for this thread.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1945 on: February 11, 2017, 04:55:12 PM »
My understanding is that a high proportion of the Obama deportations were people caught coming across the border who were returned almost immediately and that his deportation figures were higher because previously those people hadn't been included in the figures.  Is that right?  If so, then an increased emphasis on deporting those who have been established in the USA for a period of time could be down to the new Trump Executive Order and the new atmosphere on immigration created from the top.  A change of policy along those lines would be far more personally disruptive to far more people with settled connections within the USA.  Whether or not the overall figures for deportation will be higher is probably unknown so far: the change in policy may prove to be less effective overall if it has displaced personnel from operations targeted on new arrivals over the border.
This would be worthy of noting.  However, the LA raids were clearly a hold over from the Obama immigration policies. This leaves much room for improvement. Trump has been focused on border security, which would be basically continuing Obama's "deport them at the border" policies. Not as disruptive as the Raids conducted recently. And if, as ICE claims, the vast majority of those caught in the raids were criminals, many with violent crime convictions, and most of the rest already had deportation orders against them, I'm not sure that this specific instance is a bad thing, overall.

You would think that after ICE clearly, repeatedly stated that this was routine, and the planning stages were begun under the Obama administration, that people would have a hard time pinning this on Trump. I guess we are post fact.

I don't think this is in any way a sign of being "post-fact" in the way that Conway and Spicer are "post-fact" but I do agree that Trump is going to get less leeway on some of these things than Obama got.

Obama seriously considered the Keystone pipeline, for example, and stalled on a verdict for over a year.  If he had approved it, most of America would begrudgingly accepted that he's a very smart man who made a careful decision and decided the negative consequences of the pipeline were outweighed by the benefits.  When Trump makes that decision, it will come off as flippant and deliberately inflammatory, like he'll say tweet "Drill baby drill!  Fuck the earth and all of the liberals on it!"
I agree that Trump will get less leeway and receive more flack for actions that would be considered normal under different administrations. I agree that this is largely a reaction to the way he acts and the silly things he spews from Twitter. I don't agree that this should be a reason to dismiss or condone his policies; they should be debated on their own merits. I understand that this will be difficult for some to separate, but i hold hope that rational discussion will prevail over reactionary arm flailing and hyperbole. Perhaps this is naive, but i think focusing on debate and discussion will be worth the effort and combat a bit of the negatives of Trump's inflammatory style.
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Kris

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1946 on: February 11, 2017, 05:06:56 PM »
Here is a post by a person named Haisan Elsharkawi that was just posted on Facebook.
...

I'm not sure what this anecdote adds to the conversation. Is this an impact of Trump? Perhaps. Have law enforcement officials generally targeted arabs/muslims since 2001? Probably.

There are entire websites dedicated to "TSA Horror Stories" that list out in detail all sorts of apparently illegal actions taken by the TSA since the Department of Homeland Security was created. I don't think we can blame that on Trump. There are plenty of stories of when Obama was in office too, and Bush.

Again, as a political tool, sure, blame Trump. For having a discussion I would need facts to come to the conclusion that government interactions are materially worse for American citizens of arab/muslim descent because Trump is in office.

How about, "These things should not be happening under any administration, Republican, Democrat, or other, so let's stand up to it"?
While true, it is off topic for this thread.

Okay, I'll reframe it so it's on topic:

Realistic impacts of a Trump presidency? This shit is going to get exponentially worse, and the tendency toward complacency of many people will allow it to go on for far too long.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1947 on: February 11, 2017, 05:27:50 PM »
I don't agree that this should be a reason to dismiss or condone his policies; they should be debated on their own merits. I understand that this will be difficult for some to separate, but i hold hope that rational discussion will prevail over reactionary arm flailing and hyperbole.

Seriously?  Trump LIVES on reactionary arm flailing and hyperbole.  That's his bread and butter.  How are you criticizing liberals for this?

This was the pattern of Trump's entire campaign, but that doesn't mean you should follow suit.  Trump has spent the past year turning his own negatives into attacks on his opposition.  Clinton lacks stamina because Trump is a 70 year old man with a poor diet and a history of venereal disease.  Lyin' Ted Cruz is dishonest because Trump can't tell the truth even when it would benefit him.  Obama was a Kenyan Muslim because Trump is an atheist.  Immigrants are evil and have to be stopped, because Trump employs illegal immigrants at his resorts and also married an illegal immigrant.  Planned parenthood is immoral and has to go, because Trump has publicly bragged about cheating on all three of his wives.  Fiorina was a bad CEO because Trump's companies have declared bankruptcy six times.  Clinton's vast political experience was horrible, because Trump had no political experience at all.  Clinton's foundation was corrupt, because Trump's foundation was actually fined for illegal practices.  I could go on, but so can everyone else in the country.

It's time we all got serious about this.  Trump is a world class con man and lots of Americans fell for it.  He doesn't actually care about anything he promised during the campaign (lock her up, drain the swamp, build the wall), and he's only in the white house to make money for himself and his family.  He doesn't care about Americans or America. 


dividendman

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1948 on: February 11, 2017, 06:39:59 PM »
It's time we all got serious about this. 

I think that time was actually early November. Now we have to hope that he'll obey the courts and if he doesn't congress will remove him.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1949 on: February 11, 2017, 06:51:30 PM »
I don't agree that this should be a reason to dismiss or condone his policies; they should be debated on their own merits. I understand that this will be difficult for some to separate, but i hold hope that rational discussion will prevail over reactionary arm flailing and hyperbole.

Seriously?  Trump LIVES on reactionary arm flailing and hyperbole.  That's his bread and butter.  How are you criticizing liberals for this?

This was the pattern of Trump's entire campaign, but that doesn't mean you should follow suit.  Trump has spent the past year turning his own negatives into attacks on his opposition.  Clinton lacks stamina because Trump is a 70 year old man with a poor diet and a history of venereal disease.  Lyin' Ted Cruz is dishonest because Trump can't tell the truth even when it would benefit him.  Obama was a Kenyan Muslim because Trump is an atheist.  Immigrants are evil and have to be stopped, because Trump employs illegal immigrants at his resorts and also married an illegal immigrant.  Planned parenthood is immoral and has to go, because Trump has publicly bragged about cheating on all three of his wives.  Fiorina was a bad CEO because Trump's companies have declared bankruptcy six times.  Clinton's vast political experience was horrible, because Trump had no political experience at all.  Clinton's foundation was corrupt, because Trump's foundation was actually fined for illegal practices.  I could go on, but so can everyone else in the country.

It's time we all got serious about this.  Trump is a world class con man and lots of Americans fell for it.  He doesn't actually care about anything he promised during the campaign (lock her up, drain the swamp, build the wall), and he's only in the white house to make money for himself and his family.  He doesn't care about Americans or America.

In what I'm seeing on social media lately, the arm-flailing is coming from barely articulate Trump supporters spewing victorious rage.  My liberal friends are far more coherent and rational.

People claiming that liberals are being reactionary is laughable.  It's nearly impossible to have an intelligent discussion with the vast majority of Trump supporters.