Author Topic: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?  (Read 156284 times)

teen persuasion

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1600 on: January 30, 2017, 09:44:38 PM »
Local news was discussing how things are tightening up at the bridges (US - Canada border).  Things like increased scrutiny coming AND going, slower crossing times, biometric controls...  we like cross-border traffic here, it's an important part of the economy.  Slow things down, and people just won't choose to visit because it's too inconvenient.

Then there's all the students and faculty at local colleges and universities affected by the travel ban.  DS4's classes just resumed today, so not everyone may have made it back in time - if you had a semester break of more than 5 weeks, wouldn't you travel home for the holidays? Especially when you are expected to leave the dorms, and meal service doesn't resume until 1/29.  If home is too far away, might you take the opportunity to travel to Canada between semesters?  The news mentioned the economic effect here - universities encourage foreign students, since they pay up to 3.3 times what locals pay.  Scare them away, and the schools are underfunded.

bacchi

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1601 on: January 30, 2017, 10:09:09 PM »
I take some solace that in just one week, the sheer magnitude of lunacy and demonstrated hostility towards facts, may end up hastening a Trump impeachment. Congressional Republicans are going to give this nut-job all kinds of latitude since he will allow them to pass their agenda and appoint Supreme Court justices that undo all the things they hate like gay marriage, Roe v. Wade, Obamacare, etc. But they may reach a limit pretty quickly if the craziness continues on this scale on a weekly basis. Not to mention that no one should be shocked if someone digs up some stuff on Trump that truly threatens his presidency. Clinton was impeached for lying about getting a blowjob, it doesn't take that much. They know that a "President Pence" would be just as agreeable to their agenda, but without the lunacy. Liberals won't like that agenda any better, but at least Pence would likely follow the rule of law and ditch the craziness and opposition to reality/facts.
That is not true.  The GOP has been anti-fact and science for decades.  They spent over twenty years lying about the Clintons and other issues.  Trump is their logical conclusion.

I get what you're saying, but the magnitudes of lying aren't even close. We're talking mountain vs. molehill. Sure, plenty of politicians bend truth or interpret facts differently, choose to disbelieve scientific theories, or even sometimes outright lie when expedient. But there's no comparison between "regular" politician lies and the batshit craziness of Trump who spews out lies and wild conspiracy theories by the day that are demonstrably false (like from pictures at an inauguration). That's in a whole other league than objecting to climate science, IMO.

The House has to impeach. When Ryan spoke out against Trump, his ratings dropped by almost 30% in less than 2 weeks. He won't chance it.

sol

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1602 on: January 30, 2017, 10:44:26 PM »
What happens if most of the civil servant and Cabinet positions go unfilled?

This probably isn't coincidence.  Trump has cleaned house at the State Department, which would normally oppose something as blatantly illegal as a muslim ban, leaving it with a skeleton crew of senior executives and basically incapable of standing up for America's interests.  Trump seems to have no regard for what is best for the country.  Your concerns about "what if" are to my eyes deliberate machinations. 

He's not taking advantage of unfilled positions to remake America into a totalitarian regime, he's instituted a totalitarian regime by purging senior levels of government of anyone who's not a Trump loyalist.  Instituting illegal policy is step two in the process, not step one.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1603 on: January 31, 2017, 02:44:39 AM »
Trump and his posse are trampling over the Constitution. Too much is happening too fast. Information coming from the White House is opaque, convoluted, and cannot be trusted.

Republican Members of Congress need to open their eyes, start putting their country over party, and move to impeach, otherwise it's game over for the USA as we know it.

As a liberal, I will consider us lucky if we're left standing with Pence at the helm and both the ACA and Roe vs. Wade overturned.

BeginnerStache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1604 on: January 31, 2017, 05:22:36 AM »
What happens if most of the civil servant and Cabinet positions go unfilled?

This probably isn't coincidence.  Trump has cleaned house at the State Department, which would normally oppose something as blatantly illegal as a muslim ban, leaving it with a skeleton crew of senior executives and basically incapable of standing up for America's interests.  Trump seems to have no regard for what is best for the country.  Your concerns about "what if" are to my eyes deliberate machinations. 

He's not taking advantage of unfilled positions to remake America into a totalitarian regime, he's instituted a totalitarian regime by purging senior levels of government of anyone who's not a Trump loyalist.  Instituting illegal policy is step two in the process, not step one.

+1. One word "stategery." As batshit crazy as Trump is, he knows exactly what he is doing. It's amazing (well not really) how many of his die hard supporters are still defending him all in the name of "jobs and border security."

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1605 on: January 31, 2017, 06:36:17 AM »
Quote
Apparently a real affect of DT presidency is liberals buying guns
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-38297345

Dude, you laugh, but I'm considering it.

Yep same here. I already picked out what I'm ordering and just need to call the local FFL. I didn't expect MMM to be my reminder!

What the hell for? Is there some scenario where you imagine yourself revolting in armed militias? Or just dying in shootout with the Gestapo?

Please remember all this 5-10 years from now when there's another spasm of anger over lax gun laws and everyone is shrieking about how dumb 2nd amendment militiamen are.
No, it because people are afraid of being attacked by other citizens and not getting help from the police.
Oddly, this is the exact same reason conservatives carry guns... perhaps they are not so different after all.
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Freedom2016

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1606 on: January 31, 2017, 06:43:46 AM »
What happens if most of the civil servant and Cabinet positions go unfilled?

This probably isn't coincidence.  Trump has cleaned house at the State Department, which would normally oppose something as blatantly illegal as a muslim ban, leaving it with a skeleton crew of senior executives and basically incapable of standing up for America's interests.  Trump seems to have no regard for what is best for the country.  Your concerns about "what if" are to my eyes deliberate machinations. 

He's not taking advantage of unfilled positions to remake America into a totalitarian regime, he's instituted a totalitarian regime by purging senior levels of government of anyone who's not a Trump loyalist.  Instituting illegal policy is step two in the process, not step one.

+1. One word "stategery." As batshit crazy as Trump is, he knows exactly what he is doing. It's amazing (well not really) how many of his die hard supporters are still defending him all in the name of "jobs and border security."

Except I don't think it's Trump who knows what he's doing....it's Bannon.

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1607 on: January 31, 2017, 06:44:31 AM »
Trump and his posse are trampling over the Constitution. Too much is happening too fast. Information coming from the White House is opaque, convoluted, and cannot be trusted.

Republican Members of Congress need to open their eyes, start putting their country over party, and move to impeach, otherwise it's game over for the USA as we know it.

As a liberal, I will consider us lucky if we're left standing with Pence at the helm and both the ACA and Roe vs. Wade overturned.
Too much is happening too fast? All this was laid out long ago in his 100 day plan. I am continually surprised by people's surprise.

AS far as unconstitutional acts: Thank goodness we have checks and balances, and provisions in place to rectify bad laws.  The previous administration got slapped by the courts all the time over their actions. They took the licking and moved on.  The game will not end because of this.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1608 on: January 31, 2017, 06:51:08 AM »
Trump and his posse are trampling over the Constitution. Too much is happening too fast. Information coming from the White House is opaque, convoluted, and cannot be trusted.

Republican Members of Congress need to open their eyes, start putting their country over party, and move to impeach, otherwise it's game over for the USA as we know it.

As a liberal, I will consider us lucky if we're left standing with Pence at the helm and both the ACA and Roe vs. Wade overturned.
Too much is happening too fast? All this was laid out long ago in his 100 day plan. I am continually surprised by people's surprise.

AS far as unconstitutional acts: Thank goodness we have checks and balances, and provisions in place to rectify bad laws.  The previous administration got slapped by the courts all the time over their actions. They took the licking and moved on.  The game will not end because of this.

Checks and balances like this?

Quote
WASHINGTON — Longtime federal prosecutor Dana Boente, the US Attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia, was named Monday by President Trump to replace Sally Yates as acting attorney general.

Yates was fired after she publicly questioned the constitutionality of his controversial refugee and immigration ban and refused to defend it in court.

Boente was sworn in privately, the White House said.

Boente promptly ordered Justice Department lawyers to ‘‘do our sworn duty and to defend the lawful orders of our President.’’
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BeginnerStache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1609 on: January 31, 2017, 06:55:27 AM »
Trump and his posse are trampling over the Constitution. Too much is happening too fast. Information coming from the White House is opaque, convoluted, and cannot be trusted.

Republican Members of Congress need to open their eyes, start putting their country over party, and move to impeach, otherwise it's game over for the USA as we know it.

As a liberal, I will consider us lucky if we're left standing with Pence at the helm and both the ACA and Roe vs. Wade overturned.
Too much is happening too fast? All this was laid out long ago in his 100 day plan. I am continually surprised by people's surprise.

AS far as unconstitutional acts: Thank goodness we have checks and balances, and provisions in place to rectify bad laws.  The previous administration got slapped by the courts all the time over their actions. They took the licking and moved on.  The game will not end because of this.

Yeah but when you manipulate the system of checks and balances it doesn't work very well. Again Trump et al. know what they are doing. "You're fired" isn't just a TV meme anymore.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1610 on: January 31, 2017, 06:58:11 AM »
Trump and his posse are trampling over the Constitution. Too much is happening too fast. Information coming from the White House is opaque, convoluted, and cannot be trusted.

Republican Members of Congress need to open their eyes, start putting their country over party, and move to impeach, otherwise it's game over for the USA as we know it.

As a liberal, I will consider us lucky if we're left standing with Pence at the helm and both the ACA and Roe vs. Wade overturned.
Too much is happening too fast? All this was laid out long ago in his 100 day plan. I am continually surprised by people's surprise.

AS far as unconstitutional acts: Thank goodness we have checks and balances, and provisions in place to rectify bad laws.  The previous administration got slapped by the courts all the time over their actions. They took the licking and moved on.  The game will not end because of this.

Checks and balances like this?

Quote
WASHINGTON — Longtime federal prosecutor Dana Boente, the US Attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia, was named Monday by President Trump to replace Sally Yates as acting attorney general.

Yates was fired after she publicly questioned the constitutionality of his controversial refugee and immigration ban and refused to defend it in court.

Boente was sworn in privately, the White House said.

Boente promptly ordered Justice Department lawyers to ‘‘do our sworn duty and to defend the lawful orders of our President.’’
Exactly like that. Court cases in which one side defends their actions while the other argues they were wrong. This is our system, as imperfect as it is.
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Gin1984

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1611 on: January 31, 2017, 06:59:06 AM »
Trump and his posse are trampling over the Constitution. Too much is happening too fast. Information coming from the White House is opaque, convoluted, and cannot be trusted.

Republican Members of Congress need to open their eyes, start putting their country over party, and move to impeach, otherwise it's game over for the USA as we know it.

As a liberal, I will consider us lucky if we're left standing with Pence at the helm and both the ACA and Roe vs. Wade overturned.
I think that is/was the GOP plan.  Let Trump go and go and go and then we will see them as moderates.  They have successfully moved us right on a lot and I think they are now going for what they lost (gay rights, what is left of women's rights).  No, that is not lucky.  We need to stop being defensive.  Keep fighting and don't stop.  We deserve a certain standard as first world country.  That means as a woman, I am still an autonomous human being.  It means we have basic care for our citizens.  I won't stop fighting because the other option is to accept us turning into a 3rd world country for many of citizenship and I love our country too much that.

Gin1984

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1612 on: January 31, 2017, 07:01:17 AM »
Trump and his posse are trampling over the Constitution. Too much is happening too fast. Information coming from the White House is opaque, convoluted, and cannot be trusted.

Republican Members of Congress need to open their eyes, start putting their country over party, and move to impeach, otherwise it's game over for the USA as we know it.

As a liberal, I will consider us lucky if we're left standing with Pence at the helm and both the ACA and Roe vs. Wade overturned.
Too much is happening too fast? All this was laid out long ago in his 100 day plan. I am continually surprised by people's surprise.

AS far as unconstitutional acts: Thank goodness we have checks and balances, and provisions in place to rectify bad laws.  The previous administration got slapped by the courts all the time over their actions. They took the licking and moved on.  The game will not end because of this.
The Trump administration ignored the court order.  Ignoring the check and balance.  This is not acceptable and it is scary.  It sets the scene for them to ignore any check on their power.

Gin1984

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1613 on: January 31, 2017, 07:02:22 AM »
Trump and his posse are trampling over the Constitution. Too much is happening too fast. Information coming from the White House is opaque, convoluted, and cannot be trusted.

Republican Members of Congress need to open their eyes, start putting their country over party, and move to impeach, otherwise it's game over for the USA as we know it.

As a liberal, I will consider us lucky if we're left standing with Pence at the helm and both the ACA and Roe vs. Wade overturned.
Too much is happening too fast? All this was laid out long ago in his 100 day plan. I am continually surprised by people's surprise.

AS far as unconstitutional acts: Thank goodness we have checks and balances, and provisions in place to rectify bad laws.  The previous administration got slapped by the courts all the time over their actions. They took the licking and moved on.  The game will not end because of this.

Checks and balances like this?

Quote
WASHINGTON — Longtime federal prosecutor Dana Boente, the US Attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia, was named Monday by President Trump to replace Sally Yates as acting attorney general.

Yates was fired after she publicly questioned the constitutionality of his controversial refugee and immigration ban and refused to defend it in court.

Boente was sworn in privately, the White House said.

Boente promptly ordered Justice Department lawyers to ‘‘do our sworn duty and to defend the lawful orders of our President.’’
Exactly like that. Court cases in which one side defends their actions while the other argues they were wrong. This is our system, as imperfect as it is.
Not when one side IGNORES the response of the court if they don't like the decision.  Are you somehow missing that?

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1614 on: January 31, 2017, 07:07:37 AM »
Not when one side IGNORES the response of the court if they don't like the decision.  Are you somehow missing that?
Are you suggesting that ignoring court rulings comes with no consequences? Or that Trump ignoring a ruling would automatically make the behavior legal, and therefore the people actually enforcing these laws side with Trump and not the court?
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Gin1984

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1615 on: January 31, 2017, 07:09:25 AM »
Not when one side IGNORES the response of the court if they don't like the decision.  Are you somehow missing that?
Are you suggesting that ignoring court rulings comes with no consequences?
So far they have.  I very much hope the court will order a contempt of court but that should not be what I have to hope for.  The executive branch should not disobey a court order, it says something about them as a whole and it is not normal.  This is not a normal checks and balance situation.  Can you get that?  When they ignore one, they show how they plan to govern. 

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1616 on: January 31, 2017, 07:12:29 AM »
Not when one side IGNORES the response of the court if they don't like the decision.  Are you somehow missing that?
Are you suggesting that ignoring court rulings comes with no consequences?
So far they have.  I very much hope the court will order a contempt of court but that should not be what I have to hope for.  The executive branch should not disobey a court order, it says something about them as a whole and it is not normal.  This is not a normal checks and balance situation.  Can you get that?  When they ignore one, they show how they plan to govern.
Absolutely it shows how they plan to govern. But if a court is unwilling to stand behind its decision and punish those who unlawfully act, then you're right, there is no check to anything. I, however, have faith in the courts, as slow and imperfect though they are.

I would also hope that the people actually acting on the laws and enforcing said bans would obey the court as well. But that may be too optomistic to expect citizens to act according to the law.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1617 on: January 31, 2017, 07:24:14 AM »

Too much is happening too fast? All this was laid out long ago in his 100 day plan. I am continually surprised by people's surprise.


FYI everybody, the 100 day plan. Painful as it may be to read his words, we should look at them closer in order to move from the reactive to the proactive.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1618 on: January 31, 2017, 07:30:08 AM »
Not when one side IGNORES the response of the court if they don't like the decision.  Are you somehow missing that?
Are you suggesting that ignoring court rulings comes with no consequences?
So far they have.  I very much hope the court will order a contempt of court but that should not be what I have to hope for.  The executive branch should not disobey a court order, it says something about them as a whole and it is not normal.  This is not a normal checks and balance situation.  Can you get that?  When they ignore one, they show how they plan to govern.
Absolutely it shows how they plan to govern. But if a court is unwilling to stand behind its decision and punish those who unlawfully act, then you're right, there is no check to anything. I, however, have faith in the courts, as slow and imperfect though they are.

I would also hope that the people actually acting on the laws and enforcing said bans would obey the court as well. But that may be too optomistic to expect citizens to act according to the law.

It would be interesting to see how you'd react if you were affected by this Presidential Order.  I think civil disobedience and protest might just enter into your head as an acceptable way to state your opinion, as opposed to firing off smug opinions of how everyone should just fall in line and wait for things to slowly work themselves out.  I value your comments because they remind folks that there really are people out there that are happy to stand on the sidelines and watch others suffer, and explain why you think that this is OK.

I would like to know, from someone who supports the immigration ban, why they think this isn't helping ISIS recruit.  Trump is giving terrorists a giant juicy target to focus its energy on by saying we are keeping Muslims out.  Imagine if the Middle East suddenly kicked Christians out and instituted a travel ban - the extremesits would immediately interpret this as preparing for war.
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BeginnerStache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1619 on: January 31, 2017, 07:54:28 AM »
Not when one side IGNORES the response of the court if they don't like the decision.  Are you somehow missing that?
Are you suggesting that ignoring court rulings comes with no consequences?
So far they have.  I very much hope the court will order a contempt of court but that should not be what I have to hope for.  The executive branch should not disobey a court order, it says something about them as a whole and it is not normal.  This is not a normal checks and balance situation.  Can you get that?  When they ignore one, they show how they plan to govern.
Absolutely it shows how they plan to govern. But if a court is unwilling to stand behind its decision and punish those who unlawfully act, then you're right, there is no check to anything. I, however, have faith in the courts, as slow and imperfect though they are.

I would also hope that the people actually acting on the laws and enforcing said bans would obey the court as well. But that may be too optomistic to expect citizens to act according to the law.

It would be interesting to see how you'd react if you were affected by this Presidential Order.  I think civil disobedience and protest might just enter into your head as an acceptable way to state your opinion, as opposed to firing off smug opinions of how everyone should just fall in line and wait for things to slowly work themselves out.  I value your comments because they remind folks that there really are people out there that are happy to stand on the sidelines and watch others suffer, and explain why you think that this is OK.

I would like to know, from someone who supports the immigration ban, why they think this isn't helping ISIS recruit.  Trump is giving terrorists a giant juicy target to focus its energy on by saying we are keeping Muslims out.  Imagine if the Middle East suddenly kicked Christians out and instituted a travel ban - the extremesits would immediately interpret this as preparing for war.

I've asked the same question. ISIL itself has continually stated it's the west vs Muslims. Trump basically said "yep it sure is, stay the hell out of our country." It's most certainly adding fuel to the fire. Domestic terrorism is far more likely than some random refugee and this continued rhetoric only encourages it. Trump may well be ISIL's best recruiter.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1620 on: January 31, 2017, 08:21:52 AM »
It would be interesting to see how you'd react if you were affected by this Presidential Order.  I think civil disobedience and protest might just enter into your head as an acceptable way to state your opinion, as opposed to firing off smug opinions of how everyone should just fall in line and wait for things to slowly work themselves out.  I value your comments because they remind folks that there really are people out there that are happy to stand on the sidelines and watch others suffer, and explain why you think that this is OK.

I would like to know, from someone who supports the immigration ban, why they think this isn't helping ISIS recruit.  Trump is giving terrorists a giant juicy target to focus its energy on by saying we are keeping Muslims out.  Imagine if the Middle East suddenly kicked Christians out and instituted a travel ban - the extremesits would immediately interpret this as preparing for war.
I'm not sure where you got the impression that I support a travel ban. (On a second reading, perhaps you were asking a supporter, and not me.) I don't think it's an effective means to the goals the administration claims they are trying to achieve. This particular instance was also rolled out very poorly, though that is a separate issue, imo.

If I were affected by this ban, I would be sure to follow the law. Protest is quite lawful. (Personally, I would not protest at an airport - the employees there are not the fuckers making the rules, and bothering them is neither effective nor helpful, but that's just me.)

If ISIS uses a travel ban from the other side of the world as an excuse to behead muslims of a slightly different faith or blow up markets or funerals in their own backyard, then that is a perfect example of how ineffective their methodolgy is at obtaining their goals. I would not use the fear of terrorism as the sole measure of a policy. Certainly drone striking ISIS or landing more soldiers in the region would cause the same effect; but the last administration thought these were effective techniques. Terrorism deaths are declining around the world, and have been for decades. Terrorism is not a threat to American citizens, statistically speaking, so if ISIS should recruit 50 persons or 500 persons this month, it will not increase the danger stateside. Sadly Trump will likely make the same mistakes as Obama, thinking that the USA can bomb ISIS out of existence. It's a complex issue, but more violence has not helped the region.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1621 on: January 31, 2017, 08:33:15 AM »
Not when one side IGNORES the response of the court if they don't like the decision.  Are you somehow missing that?
Are you suggesting that ignoring court rulings comes with no consequences?
So far they have.  I very much hope the court will order a contempt of court but that should not be what I have to hope for.  The executive branch should not disobey a court order, it says something about them as a whole and it is not normal.  This is not a normal checks and balance situation.  Can you get that?  When they ignore one, they show how they plan to govern.
Absolutely it shows how they plan to govern. But if a court is unwilling to stand behind its decision and punish those who unlawfully act, then you're right, there is no check to anything. I, however, have faith in the courts, as slow and imperfect though they are.

I would also hope that the people actually acting on the laws and enforcing said bans would obey the court as well. But that may be too optomistic to expect citizens to act according to the law.

How exactly can the courts punish the President? If the courts rule that an action by the executive is unconstitutional, and the executive ignores the court ruling, then it doesn't really serve as a check unless others act. The legislature could in theory impeach, but does anyone see that happening soon? And what happens when impeachment is ignored, combined with private security supplementing secret service protection and high levels of law enforcement and military support for the President?

Our democracy is quite fragile when you have leadership that doesn't respect democratic norms or the rule of law. What happens when there's much more draconian measures introduced after an actual terrorist attack (even a small one)? We'll be told that the courts must be ignored because of national security. What do we do then?

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1622 on: January 31, 2017, 08:48:22 AM »
It would be interesting to see how you'd react if you were affected by this Presidential Order.  I think civil disobedience and protest might just enter into your head as an acceptable way to state your opinion, as opposed to firing off smug opinions of how everyone should just fall in line and wait for things to slowly work themselves out.  I value your comments because they remind folks that there really are people out there that are happy to stand on the sidelines and watch others suffer, and explain why you think that this is OK.

I would like to know, from someone who supports the immigration ban, why they think this isn't helping ISIS recruit.  Trump is giving terrorists a giant juicy target to focus its energy on by saying we are keeping Muslims out.  Imagine if the Middle East suddenly kicked Christians out and instituted a travel ban - the extremesits would immediately interpret this as preparing for war.
I'm not sure where you got the impression that I support a travel ban. (On a second reading, perhaps you were asking a supporter, and not me.) I don't think it's an effective means to the goals the administration claims they are trying to achieve. This particular instance was also rolled out very poorly, though that is a separate issue, imo.

If I were affected by this ban, I would be sure to follow the law. Protest is quite lawful. (Personally, I would not protest at an airport - the employees there are not the fuckers making the rules, and bothering them is neither effective nor helpful, but that's just me.)

If ISIS uses a travel ban from the other side of the world as an excuse to behead muslims of a slightly different faith or blow up markets or funerals in their own backyard, then that is a perfect example of how ineffective their methodolgy is at obtaining their goals.

I would disagree. The mere fact that we elected a President who supported a Muslim ban from the get go actually shows how affective their strategies are. Killing innocent people is just the means to a bigger purpose.

Quote
Certainly drone striking ISIS or landing more soldiers in the region would cause the same effect; but the last administration thought these were effective techniques.

I agree to a point. Drone strikes certainly encourage ISIL sympathizers, but does not have the same affect as a ban on all Muslims. We had no issues with refugees before. But now we are essentially condemning them to be tortured, raped and murdered because of their faith. 

Quote
Terrorism deaths are declining around the world, and have been for decades.


That's not true at all. Note the chart showing terrorism related deaths doubled between 2013 and 2014.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/global-terrorism-declined-last-year-but-not-in-the-west/


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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1623 on: January 31, 2017, 09:06:32 AM »
How exactly can the courts punish the President? If the courts rule that an action by the executive is unconstitutional, and the executive ignores the court ruling, then it doesn't really serve as a check unless others act. The legislature could in theory impeach, but does anyone see that happening soon? And what happens when impeachment is ignored, combined with private security supplementing secret service protection and high levels of law enforcement and military support for the President?

Our democracy is quite fragile when you have leadership that doesn't respect democratic norms or the rule of law. What happens when there's much more draconian measures introduced after an actual terrorist attack (even a small one)? We'll be told that the courts must be ignored because of national security. What do we do then?
Why would the court punish the president for unlawful laws? That doesn't happen, and shouldn't happen.  The court is not there to 'punish' lawmakers - it is there to check their power. The court would act by striking down the law. If TSA agents or DHS employees or whomever continue to act under a law that was struck down, they would need to be sued in the court by the people with standing. If they continue to ignore the court, the individual actors who are causing harm would need to be punished, but not the people who legally passed the law that was legally struck down.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1624 on: January 31, 2017, 09:13:40 AM »
I agree to a point. Drone strikes certainly encourage ISIL sympathizers, but does not have the same affect as a ban on all Muslims. We had no issues with refugees before. But now we are essentially condemning them to be tortured, raped and murdered because of their faith. 

Quote
Terrorism deaths are declining around the world, and have been for decades.


That's not true at all. Note the chart showing terrorism related deaths doubled between 2013 and 2014.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/global-terrorism-declined-last-year-but-not-in-the-west/
Thanks for the chart. My info was out of date - there has been a big spike in deaths over the last decade, completely reversing the trend that had been occurring since the 70's.

But to be fair, the USA has been condemning these people to this fate for years. There has always been a 'cap' on the number of refugees from these areas allowed into the USA; everyone after the cap was condemned to the fate, plus the risk of civilian murder by drone or airstrike. The USA is an imperfect place, for sure.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1625 on: January 31, 2017, 09:16:45 AM »
How exactly can the courts punish the President? If the courts rule that an action by the executive is unconstitutional, and the executive ignores the court ruling, then it doesn't really serve as a check unless others act. The legislature could in theory impeach, but does anyone see that happening soon? And what happens when impeachment is ignored, combined with private security supplementing secret service protection and high levels of law enforcement and military support for the President?

Our democracy is quite fragile when you have leadership that doesn't respect democratic norms or the rule of law. What happens when there's much more draconian measures introduced after an actual terrorist attack (even a small one)? We'll be told that the courts must be ignored because of national security. What do we do then?
Why would the court punish the president for unlawful laws? That doesn't happen, and shouldn't happen.  The court is not there to 'punish' lawmakers - it is there to check their power. The court would act by striking down the law. If TSA agents or DHS employees or whomever continue to act under a law that was struck down, they would need to be sued in the court by the people with standing. If they continue to ignore the court, the individual actors who are causing harm would need to be punished, but not the people who legally passed the law that was legally struck down.

I think the essence of the question is that the courts still rely on the executive branch to actually do a lot of the work. In an extreme example, if the court found a high-ranking official in contempt, or a grand jury handed down a criminal indictment, and the executive branch ignored the indictment, what then? Are U.S. Marshals going to get into a shootout with Secret Service or DHS cops? Would they even attempt to carry out the court's orders, since they're under the Attorney General?
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1626 on: January 31, 2017, 09:26:48 AM »
I agree to a point. Drone strikes certainly encourage ISIL sympathizers, but does not have the same affect as a ban on all Muslims. We had no issues with refugees before. But now we are essentially condemning them to be tortured, raped and murdered because of their faith. 

Quote
Terrorism deaths are declining around the world, and have been for decades.


That's not true at all. Note the chart showing terrorism related deaths doubled between 2013 and 2014.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/global-terrorism-declined-last-year-but-not-in-the-west/
Thanks for the chart. My info was out of date - there has been a big spike in deaths over the last decade, completely reversing the trend that had been occurring since the 70's.

But to be fair, the USA has been condemning these people to this fate for years. There has always been a 'cap' on the number of refugees from these areas allowed into the USA; everyone after the cap was condemned to the fate, plus the risk of civilian murder by drone or airstrike. The USA is an imperfect place, for sure.

The Obama admin. was pushing to increase that cap to 100,000 in 2016 (not sure if it ever happened). Unfortunately the US is quite a ways away and not necessarily the most sought after place for refugees. Certainly less desirable now. I know they were grappling with how to keep raising the cap while keeping comprehensive background checks in place. I am all for that as opposed to "just stay the hell away." 

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1627 on: January 31, 2017, 09:30:19 AM »
What happens if most of the civil servant and Cabinet positions go unfilled?

This probably isn't coincidence.  Trump has cleaned house at the State Department, which would normally oppose something as blatantly illegal as a muslim ban, leaving it with a skeleton crew of senior executives and basically incapable of standing up for America's interests.  Trump seems to have no regard for what is best for the country.  Your concerns about "what if" are to my eyes deliberate machinations. 

He's not taking advantage of unfilled positions to remake America into a totalitarian regime, he's instituted a totalitarian regime by purging senior levels of government of anyone who's not a Trump loyalist.  Instituting illegal policy is step two in the process, not step one.
Unfortunately the ban may be legal due to a clause in the Immigration Act that allows Trump to do exactly what he's doing:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/bc.marfeel.com/amp/www.nationalreview.com/article/444371/donald-trump-executive-order-ban-entry-seven-muslim-majority-countries-legal?client=ms-android-americamovil-us&espv=1

"Federal immigration law also includes Section 1182(f), which states: “Whenever the President finds that the entry of any aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, he may by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or nonimmigrants, or impose on the entry of aliens any restrictions he may deem to be appropriate” (emphasis added).

 Section 1182(f) plainly and sweepingly authorizes the president to issue temporary bans on the entry of classes of aliens for national-security purposes. This is precisely what President Trump has done. In fact, in doing so, he expressly cites Section 1182(f), and his executive order tracks the language of the statute (finding the entry of aliens from these countries at this time “would be detrimental to the interests of the United States”)."

But is it still legal if they've obviously left open routes for people of the "minority" (i.e., Christian) religion to come to the US? That strikes me as singling out one religion, which is very definitely unconstitutional.
Also, does he actually need to show that there are national security reasons behind this? Because he left out a lot of countries that have been proven breeding grounds for terrorism, and they just happen to be countries his empire does business in. Where's his national security concern there? I think there's quite a bit to argue against this actually being done for security purposes, or that any of these people are "detrimental" to the U.S.
Not to mention, it's against the UN. Now, I understand that Trump wants to withdraw from the UN (another source of checks and balances against him--funny how he wants all of those to disappear) but he hasn't done so yet. I kinda hope he gets a slap from them for this asinine and inhumane action.

Gin - I agree, we shouldn't be "hoping" to reduce our rights and standards to those of the third world. But with Trump trying to alienate our allies and neighbors, and the rest of the GOP rushing to take away our civil rights, it's going to be a long, hard fight and I don't see how we can win all of it.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1628 on: January 31, 2017, 11:18:50 AM »
How exactly can the courts punish the President? If the courts rule that an action by the executive is unconstitutional, and the executive ignores the court ruling, then it doesn't really serve as a check unless others act. The legislature could in theory impeach, but does anyone see that happening soon? And what happens when impeachment is ignored, combined with private security supplementing secret service protection and high levels of law enforcement and military support for the President?

Our democracy is quite fragile when you have leadership that doesn't respect democratic norms or the rule of law. What happens when there's much more draconian measures introduced after an actual terrorist attack (even a small one)? We'll be told that the courts must be ignored because of national security. What do we do then?
Why would the court punish the president for unlawful laws? That doesn't happen, and shouldn't happen.  The court is not there to 'punish' lawmakers - it is there to check their power. The court would act by striking down the law. If TSA agents or DHS employees or whomever continue to act under a law that was struck down, they would need to be sued in the court by the people with standing. If they continue to ignore the court, the individual actors who are causing harm would need to be punished, but not the people who legally passed the law that was legally struck down.

The court doesn't punish the president for unlawful laws.  We are talking about ignoring a court order (issued because the court finds it likely the Executive order will be found unconstitutional).

In this case, the court issued an injunction against CBP detainng certain immigrants and some (not all) CBP officers refused to follow the court order.  Supposedly at the request of their superiors but that's just an issue of degree.

Quote
Customs and Border Protection (CBP) agents defied the orders of federal judges regarding Donald Trump’s travel bans on Sunday, according to members of Congress and attorneys who rallied protests around the country in support of detained refugees and travellers from seven Muslim-majority countries.

At this point, the court should be holding anyone involved in contempt, up to and including the president (although I imagine there is no paper trail of him ordering the officers to ignore the order).  The court should have asked the US Marshalls to enforce the order (ironic and scary since the Marshalls still technically report to the president, but that would at least let us know how broken the system is).

So the bottom line is no, individual citizens were not all obeying the court and our system of checks and balances seems (at least temporarily) broken.  I have hope that medium term we can fix this, but I do not rely solely on hope.  Hope must be realized by action

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1629 on: January 31, 2017, 11:23:07 AM »
Speaking of stuff hitting the fan, this piece in Medium is worth a read.

https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/trial-balloon-for-a-coup-e024990891d5#.iiwh1udux

Thanks for posting this.  It's been haunting me ever since I read it yesterday.  Combined with the intelligence dossier and some other things I've been reading, we now have an interesting story developing:

2012: Rex Tillerson as head of Exxon makes a $500 BILLION deal with Rossneft, Russian Oil company.

2014: Exxon/Rossneft deal is stopped due to sanctions

July 2016: Carter Page, Oil Investment Banker, visits the head of Rossneft, Russian oil company, and would promise Trump 19% of Rossneft if Trump ends sanctions, and also hears that the Russian government has compromising information on Trump (i.e. golden showers).

December 2016: Rossneft is sold.  19.5% of the company is now owned by an untraceable entity in the Cayman Islands.  The source you cited believes that 0.5% is the fee for the money launderer.

January 2017: Rex Tillerson nominated to become Secretary of State.  The intelligence dossier is publicized.  The Russian source of the information (Oleg Erovinkin, aide to the head of Rossneft) is murdered.


The scary thing is that if Trump now has obtained a multi-billion dollar gift of ownership of a Russian oil company, how can he use the levers of power to increase the value of this gift?  Ending the Russian sanctions would be a good bet, but how do you really spike oil prices?

War in the middle east / Iran.

Sleep well tonight my friends.

P.S. On the bright side, I think this means the golden shower story is true.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1630 on: January 31, 2017, 11:25:50 AM »
At this point, the court should be holding anyone involved in contempt, up to and including the president (although I imagine there is no paper trail of him ordering the officers to ignore the order).  The court should have asked the US Marshalls to enforce the order (ironic and scary since the Marshalls still technically report to the president, but that would at least let us know how broken the system is).

So the bottom line is no, individual citizens were not all obeying the court and our system of checks and balances seems (at least temporarily) broken.  I have hope that medium term we can fix this, but I do not rely solely on hope.  Hope must be realized by action

Are there any police who don't ultimately report to the President?

SCOTUS has their own police force that reports directly to the justices, but that's the only one I know of. What's the structure for Capitol police?
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1631 on: January 31, 2017, 11:29:25 AM »
At this point, the court should be holding anyone involved in contempt, up to and including the president (although I imagine there is no paper trail of him ordering the officers to ignore the order).  The court should have asked the US Marshalls to enforce the order (ironic and scary since the Marshalls still technically report to the president, but that would at least let us know how broken the system is).

So the bottom line is no, individual citizens were not all obeying the court and our system of checks and balances seems (at least temporarily) broken.  I have hope that medium term we can fix this, but I do not rely solely on hope.  Hope must be realized by action

Are there any police who don't ultimately report to the President?

SCOTUS has their own police force that reports directly to the justices, but that's the only one I know of. What's the structure for Capitol police?

Aren't all state and local police departments independent of the federal government (instead reporting to State governors)?
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1632 on: January 31, 2017, 11:36:43 AM »
Too much is happening too fast? All this was laid out long ago in his 100 day plan. I am continually surprised by people's surprise.

AS far as unconstitutional acts: Thank goodness we have checks and balances, and provisions in place to rectify bad laws.  The previous administration got slapped by the courts all the time over their actions. They took the licking and moved on.  The game will not end because of this.

Oh, I'm not surprised that he's enacting what's in the 100 day plan. However, I have been taken aback by the chaos including: the endless lies and insistence on distorting the number of attendees at the inauguration; baseless allegations of 3-5 million illegal ballots and voter fraud investigation; gag order/Twitter feud with the National Park Service; the bullying of our neighbor Mexico; provocation of China regarding the South Sea; sticking son-in-law Jared Kuchner in a senior adviser role; prioritization of Christian Syrian refugees when/if they are allowed to apply for refugee status in the future; clearing out entire State Department; and perhaps most ominously, appointing Bannon as the head of the National Security Council.

Need I continue?

So, yes, I stand by my original statement that too much is happening too fast. It's a game of smoke and mirrors. There's too much deception and diversion.

Check and balances? Where have you seen anyone in the government successfully take action to prevent the regime from bulldozing forward with their plans? The people who have tried - federal judges and the acting AG - have been tossed aside. It's also telling that four days into the presidency, the U.S. was downgraded from a full democracy to a flawed democracy according to the Economic Intelligence Unit's Democracy Index.

While this is anecdotal, many people in my life are scared of their government for the first time. 

This is not normal.


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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1633 on: January 31, 2017, 11:38:32 AM »
At this point, the court should be holding anyone involved in contempt, up to and including the president (although I imagine there is no paper trail of him ordering the officers to ignore the order).  The court should have asked the US Marshalls to enforce the order (ironic and scary since the Marshalls still technically report to the president, but that would at least let us know how broken the system is).

So the bottom line is no, individual citizens were not all obeying the court and our system of checks and balances seems (at least temporarily) broken.  I have hope that medium term we can fix this, but I do not rely solely on hope.  Hope must be realized by action
Yes. If individuals will not follow the law, then there is indeed a disconnect.  Officers not obeying a lawful injunction should indeed be sanctioned, as should the immediate superiors ordering such actions.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1634 on: January 31, 2017, 12:07:01 PM »
At this point, the court should be holding anyone involved in contempt, up to and including the president (although I imagine there is no paper trail of him ordering the officers to ignore the order).  The court should have asked the US Marshalls to enforce the order (ironic and scary since the Marshalls still technically report to the president, but that would at least let us know how broken the system is).

So the bottom line is no, individual citizens were not all obeying the court and our system of checks and balances seems (at least temporarily) broken.  I have hope that medium term we can fix this, but I do not rely solely on hope.  Hope must be realized by action
If staff in your immigration service have been ignoring a court order (eg by deporting people when the order specifically states that this should not be done, then the judge issuing the order should be taking the following actions -

1.  Order the head of the service responsible for the implementation of the order to appear before them, and require the police to enforce that order and produce the head of service,
2.  Require the head of service, on oath, to provide details of all persons deported,
3.  Require the service, at their expense, to return all of those persons who had been deported in contravention of the order to be USA as soon as possible, and on their return to provide them with access to legal advice    Any proposal to deport the person again not to be acted upon until a court hearing has determined its lawfulness,
4.  Hold the head of service in prison until actions 1 to 3 have been completed and the contempt of court discharged.
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BeginnerStache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1635 on: January 31, 2017, 12:16:10 PM »
Paul Ryan 2016 - "I do not think it is reflective of our principles, not just as a party, but as a country. And I think the smarter way to go in all respects is to have a security test, not a religious test. I do not think a Muslim ban is in our country's interest.”

Paul Ryan 2017 - Paul Ryan on Tuesday defended President Donald Trump's divisive executive order on refugees and immigration, arguing that while the rollout was bumpy, the policy is consistent with Republican principles.

I would agree with his arguments. The ban is not reflective of our countries principles but is indeed consistent with Republican principles.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1636 on: January 31, 2017, 12:59:35 PM »
At this point, the court should be holding anyone involved in contempt, up to and including the president (although I imagine there is no paper trail of him ordering the officers to ignore the order).  The court should have asked the US Marshalls to enforce the order (ironic and scary since the Marshalls still technically report to the president, but that would at least let us know how broken the system is).

So the bottom line is no, individual citizens were not all obeying the court and our system of checks and balances seems (at least temporarily) broken.  I have hope that medium term we can fix this, but I do not rely solely on hope.  Hope must be realized by action
If staff in your immigration service have been ignoring a court order (eg by deporting people when the order specifically states that this should not be done, then the judge issuing the order should be taking the following actions -

1.  Order the head of the service responsible for the implementation of the order to appear before them, and require the police to enforce that order and produce the head of service,
2.  Require the head of service, on oath, to provide details of all persons deported,
3.  Require the service, at their expense, to return all of those persons who had been deported in contravention of the order to be USA as soon as possible, and on their return to provide them with access to legal advice    Any proposal to deport the person again not to be acted upon until a court hearing has determined its lawfulness,
4.  Hold the head of service in prison until actions 1 to 3 have been completed and the contempt of court discharged.

I don't know if that's possible, but I would like to see it happen, and for any officers willfully defying the court order lose their jobs.  They take an oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic.  If the court says "stop detaining people, it's probably not constitutional" they should listen.

deadlymonkey

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1637 on: January 31, 2017, 01:02:11 PM »
http://usuncut.com/politics/syrian-family-voted-trump

Syrian family living in the US for years, voted for Trump.  Their family that they spend several years trying to get visas for, where arriving in the US and deported before the stay went into effect.  They thought because they were Christians, they would be ok with Trump's policies...


"I never thought the leopards would eat MY face" says woman who voted for the Leopards eating people's faces party.

RangerOne

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1638 on: January 31, 2017, 01:06:54 PM »
The entire executive order is either the result of gross incompetence or a bullshit smoke screen pushed by Bannon to distract from other shit they are pulling in the background.

I suspect it is a mix of both. I don't like to assume grand political schemes are in the works and most conspiracy theories are bullshit.

In that respect I have to imagine that Trump took his advice from someone other than his Generals who would be more cautious and pragmatic in tampering with immigration policy. While I am pretty sure Trump was clueless, someone in his inner circle, like Bannon, must have guessed an order as hastily prepared as this would meet with strong resistance in the media and the court system. So someone likely discerned that it may be beneficial to create some conflict between the courts and the executive branch now and further polarize the republican base against the courts and the media.

Beyond that the EO is basically symbolic bullshit that stands to do nothing to improve security, so I can only assume someone wanted a political reaction since the EO is sure to get torn apart in the courts. If it were trying to be a real immigration lock down it would include unfriendly nations like the UAE. Legally also you can easily argue that this is technically not a Muslim ban even given its vague poorly written language. However it is equally easy to read between the lines and see how such a vague order could be implemented as a half ass temporary halt on Muslims coming to and from the country. The countries were clearly chosen for their lack of fiscal entanglement and Muslim majority populations.

Overall Trump's administration is setting a number of terrible precedents for his administration. He is showing an incompetent willingness to  use his power, without doing any due diligence, to make political plays without any caution for legal ramifications for average people. Though his base will rally behind him for now, some in slight denial and others because they couldn't give two shits about any of the countries on the list or people from them. 

I think even for those who think that we should hold off on admitting Muslim immigrants for whatever reason, you should have some concern for how the administration chooses to achieve those goals.

Trump is not some fucking Archangel raining terror down on Islam and bleeding red, white and blue. He is just a self centered man, with a lust for attention and power, with a gross level of ignorance about his office, being guide by a group political and power hungry sycophants with questionable political motives.

nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1639 on: January 31, 2017, 01:07:52 PM »

"I never thought the leopards would eat MY face" says woman who voted for the Leopards eating people's faces party.

This sentiment has been pretty common throughout history.
It's also surprising how many people are surprised that a guy who compaigned on building a wall and banning Muslims now is taking steps to build a wall and ban Muslims.
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nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1640 on: January 31, 2017, 01:13:23 PM »
The entire executive order is either the result of gross incompetence or a bullshit smoke screen pushed by Bannon to distract from other shit they are pulling in the background.

The problem that I have with this strategy is that it can't work forever.  Its a fine strategy to have when you are in a ratings game and your only metric is whether you've misdirected most of the people to your tomfoolery.  The problem with being in political office is that you've literally got to fool everyone, all the time, an there are some very tenacious people out there that will keep digging.

You might get some orders through with minimal protest because the masses are distracted protesting something else, but if you do something really subversive and illegal - eventually (I hope) a few people are going to put it together and blow the lid off it.  That's what investigative journalism is at its core.
I'm anticipating big scandals after a year or so.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1641 on: January 31, 2017, 01:17:48 PM »
At this point, the court should be holding anyone involved in contempt, up to and including the president (although I imagine there is no paper trail of him ordering the officers to ignore the order).  The court should have asked the US Marshalls to enforce the order (ironic and scary since the Marshalls still technically report to the president, but that would at least let us know how broken the system is).

So the bottom line is no, individual citizens were not all obeying the court and our system of checks and balances seems (at least temporarily) broken.  I have hope that medium term we can fix this, but I do not rely solely on hope.  Hope must be realized by action
If staff in your immigration service have been ignoring a court order (eg by deporting people when the order specifically states that this should not be done, then the judge issuing the order should be taking the following actions -

1.  Order the head of the service responsible for the implementation of the order to appear before them, and require the police to enforce that order and produce the head of service,
2.  Require the head of service, on oath, to provide details of all persons deported,
3.  Require the service, at their expense, to return all of those persons who had been deported in contravention of the order to be USA as soon as possible, and on their return to provide them with access to legal advice    Any proposal to deport the person again not to be acted upon until a court hearing has determined its lawfulness,
4.  Hold the head of service in prison until actions 1 to 3 have been completed and the contempt of court discharged.
I don't know if that's possible, but I would like to see it happen, and for any officers willfully defying the court order lose their jobs.  They take an oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic.  If the court says "stop detaining people, it's probably not constitutional" they should listen.
It is pretty much what has happened here in the UK when someone was deported contrary to a court order (the head of service was not imprisoned because it was more of a miscommunication than a deliberate defiance, but the rest did happen).  Contempt of court is taken extremely seriously here: it is the final remedy which enforces the rule of law.

Democracy is usually considered to be about voting, but voting only creates a democracy if the people voted into office obey the rule of law: "be you never so high, the law is above you" - as first set out in Magna Carta. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNZosqiJISs
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NoStacheOhio

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1642 on: January 31, 2017, 01:19:52 PM »
The entire executive order is either the result of gross incompetence or a bullshit smoke screen pushed by Bannon to distract from other shit they are pulling in the background.

I suspect it is a mix of both. I don't like to assume grand political schemes are in the works and most conspiracy theories are bullshit.


I think there's also an element of staking out an extreme position you ultimately intend to walk back (to what you really wanted in the first place) in the name of "compromise."

He's also testing boundaries and loyalty. How will the courts respond? Will DHS defy court orders?

DHS police (customs, border patrol, etc.) have jurisdiction within 100 miles of any border (including water), which covers ~60% of U.S. citizens, and most of the left-leaning population centers.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/digging-out-of-a-hole/

cchrissyy

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1643 on: January 31, 2017, 01:54:50 PM »
Quote
DHS police (customs, border patrol, etc.) have jurisdiction within 100 miles of any border (including water), which covers ~60% of U.S. citizens, and most of the left-leaning population centers.

I just learned that too   (sigh)

https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone

nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1644 on: January 31, 2017, 01:56:03 PM »

I think there's also an element of staking out an extreme position you ultimately intend to walk back (to what you really wanted in the first place) in the name of "compromise."

...or perhaps it's even more simple.  DJT sees himself as a great negotiator, and thinks the best thing to do is strike first and exploit weaknesses to gain leverage. Then you can force more concessions.

Works ok when you are negotiating between businesses, but government isn't business.  When speaking about domestic affairs, your side "winning" usually means another group of Americans loses. DJT has not yet shown that he is capable of striking a deal that's mutually agreeable for all parties involved  when he has the leverage to smash his opponents.
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

Midwest

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1645 on: January 31, 2017, 02:09:33 PM »
Quote
DHS police (customs, border patrol, etc.) have jurisdiction within 100 miles of any border (including water), which covers ~60% of U.S. citizens, and most of the left-leaning population centers.

I just learned that too   (sigh)

https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone

That's not a new policy under Trump.  If a reasonable candidate had run on fixing constitutional infringements like that, they might have one.

cchrissyy

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1646 on: January 31, 2017, 02:13:55 PM »
Right, I didn't say it's a new policy, just news to me.

dragoncar

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1647 on: January 31, 2017, 02:15:12 PM »
Quote
DHS police (customs, border patrol, etc.) have jurisdiction within 100 miles of any border (including water), which covers ~60% of U.S. citizens, and most of the left-leaning population centers.

I just learned that too   (sigh)

https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone

That's not a new policy under Trump.  If a reasonable candidate had run on fixing constitutional infringements like that, they might have one.

LOL https://berniesanders.com/issues/a-fair-and-humane-immigration-policy/

Midwest

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1648 on: January 31, 2017, 02:21:28 PM »
Quote
DHS police (customs, border patrol, etc.) have jurisdiction within 100 miles of any border (including water), which covers ~60% of U.S. citizens, and most of the left-leaning population centers.

I just learned that too   (sigh)

https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone

That's not a new policy under Trump.  If a reasonable candidate had run on fixing constitutional infringements like that, they might have one.

LOL https://berniesanders.com/issues/a-fair-and-humane-immigration-policy/

and.... the democratic party actively worked to rig their primary against him.  I disagreed with a lot of what Sanders had to say.  On civil liberties for citizens, however, he would have been a better choice than either of the 2 main party candidates.

To add - You don't have to be an advocate of open borders to disagree with unconstitutional search policies for citizens.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 02:24:48 PM by Midwest »

dragoncar

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1649 on: January 31, 2017, 04:10:58 PM »
Quote
DHS police (customs, border patrol, etc.) have jurisdiction within 100 miles of any border (including water), which covers ~60% of U.S. citizens, and most of the left-leaning population centers.

I just learned that too   (sigh)

https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone

That's not a new policy under Trump.  If a reasonable candidate had run on fixing constitutional infringements like that, they might have one.

LOL https://berniesanders.com/issues/a-fair-and-humane-immigration-policy/

and.... the democratic party actively worked to rig their primary against him.  I disagreed with a lot of what Sanders had to say.  On civil liberties for citizens, however, he would have been a better choice than either of the 2 main party candidates.

To add - You don't have to be an advocate of open borders to disagree with unconstitutional search policies for citizens.

and... at this point Trump is the pres and he bears full responsibility for doing the right thing regardless of what anyone else does/would do.