Author Topic: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?  (Read 156287 times)

robartsd

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1450 on: January 26, 2017, 09:28:01 AM »
That's my point. We need to be having actual discussions. Cabinet confirmations need to be discussions. We need to discuss the new legislation Congress is introducing.

We aren't. We're talking about imaginary voter fraud and Melania's dress.
On a talk radio program I heard yesterday, the host was discussing the possibility that the Trump administration was using a these dumb things as a strategy to distract from the actual policy making going on in the background.

On voter fraud, it is insanely easy to create a fake voter registration. People have successfully registered and obtained ballots in the name of their pets to demonstrate this. Of course the risks associated with being caught committing voter fraud far outweigh any possible benefit of being successful (unless you're an illegal alien that thinks your risk of deportation hinges on the election's outcome). I just checked my state's voter registration form online, it never asks if you are a citizen (it does ask for place of birth [select state or country], state driver's license/ID card number [or indicate you don't have one], and last four of SSN [or indicate that you don't have one]).  I could see aliens registering without realizing that they're committing voter fraud. Many aliens in my state have SSNs and file state income tax returns (I saw some of those returns when I worked for the tax board in 2000 - the tax board simply issues its own identification number to tax payers where multiple people file with the same SSN, some SSNs have dozens of individual taxpayers). I don't think this happens on the order of 3 million+ people, but it's very difficult for me to believe that there is no voter fraud happening.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1451 on: January 26, 2017, 09:31:15 AM »
I've heard nothing about Melania's dress. Not sure if that was a red herring or something that's actually happening.

Sadly, it is not a red herring.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

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farmecologist

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1452 on: January 26, 2017, 09:42:34 AM »
And it is Trump himself that is bringing up all these stupidities, like the numbers at the inauguration and the non-existent "voter fraud".  You should be directing your frustration at him, not the people who are rightly and properly pointing out that he is the problem here.

Except it's noise, and distracting from substantive policy discussions, and legitimate criticisms of cabinet appointments. I'd rather see opponents ignore the claims of voter fraud and whatever other nonsense he throws up, and focus on some of the more core issues.

If and when they actually start investigating (doubtful), then criticize the investigation, methods, etc. Right now he's just running his mouth and trying to keep his base amped up.

What policy discussions? I've seen a string of executive orders...not so much discussion.

That's my point. We need to be having actual discussions. Cabinet confirmations need to be discussions. We need to discuss the new legislation Congress is introducing.

We aren't. We're talking about imaginary voter fraud and Melania's dress.

Trump is talking about imaginary voter fraud.  My social circle is far more concerned with the assault on science and communication from other government agencies.

I've heard nothing about Melania's dress. Not sure if that was a red herring or something that's actually happening.


...and if Trump wants to talk about "voter fraud", we also need to talk about voter suppression ( gerrymandering, etc.. ).  I've never heard Trump mention that.





Kris

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1453 on: January 26, 2017, 09:48:19 AM »
The ‘entire senior level’ of State Department management just resigned to avoid working for Trump.

http://www.rawstory.com/2017/01/the-entire-senior-level-of-state-department-management-just-resigned-to-avoid-working-for-trump-report/
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BeginnerStache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1454 on: January 26, 2017, 10:13:40 AM »
I think voter fraud is largely a non-issue. I mean people talk about it because it's news and adds to the bat shit craziness of the orange monkey. But millions of folks didn't march because of voter fraud or a dress. He's uniting folks, just not in the way he intended.

bender

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1455 on: January 26, 2017, 10:22:56 AM »
What do people think about re-negotiation of NAFTA?

I see labor unions are for making changes.  Some are saying it could hurt national security if we push it too far.  So far I'm thinking it would be beneficial to update the agreement to make trade more balanced and update it for the 21st century.


deadlymonkey

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1456 on: January 26, 2017, 10:27:32 AM »
The ‘entire senior level’ of State Department management just resigned to avoid working for Trump.

http://www.rawstory.com/2017/01/the-entire-senior-level-of-state-department-management-just-resigned-to-avoid-working-for-trump-report/

This is on Washington post too.  Why is this not all over the rest of the news stations!!

robartsd

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1457 on: January 26, 2017, 10:27:58 AM »
The ‘entire senior level’ of State Department management just resigned to avoid working for Trump.

http://www.rawstory.com/2017/01/the-entire-senior-level-of-state-department-management-just-resigned-to-avoid-working-for-trump-report/
I totally understand resigning from the state department - who in their right mind would want to stick around for the job of smoothing things over in international relations every time something offensive shouts out of Trump's mouth?

dragoncar

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1458 on: January 26, 2017, 10:34:17 AM »
It honestly seems like if things continue at this current pace, Trump will effectively cripple the Federal Government within the year.  Regardless of whether you think that's a good thing, this is the first time I'm really worried about what the nation will look like in the medium term - there was always the hope that rational Republicans would be able to guide him away from the biggest mistakes.  Does anyone else have a serious case of "market uncertainty" now or am I reading too much in a bubble (I do try not to hang out in political echo chambers too long)

nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1459 on: January 26, 2017, 10:42:14 AM »
What do people think about re-negotiation of NAFTA?

I see labor unions are for making changes.  Some are saying it could hurt national security if we push it too far.  So far I'm thinking it would be beneficial to update the agreement to make trade more balanced and update it for the 21st century.

My worry is that anytime you completel 'scrap' a deal, you run the risk of getting an even worse deal.  Trump is uber-confident that he's the best deal maker, but it's a legitimate concern.  Also an issue is that completely drafting a new deal will almost certainly take a couple of years, tens-of-thousands of staffers time and lots of uncertainty in teh meantime.

Personally, my spouse and I both benefit from NAFTA, since we have been able to study and work in Canada without the visas which would be necessary had we come from elsewhere.  So this interjects a lot of uncertainty into our lives. IMO it would be far better to start within the framework we already have and adjust it as necessary.  SCrapping and starting over is risky, time consuming and costly.

One of the biggest problems I see with NAFTA is that it doesn't mention lots of job categories that simply didn't exist when it was drafted in 1996 (?).  So that clearly needs to be addressed, as does more comprehensive rules on 'guest' and non-resident/temporary workers.
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Unique User

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1460 on: January 26, 2017, 11:24:11 AM »
The ‘entire senior level’ of State Department management just resigned to avoid working for Trump.

http://www.rawstory.com/2017/01/the-entire-senior-level-of-state-department-management-just-resigned-to-avoid-working-for-trump-report/

This is on Washington post too.  Why is this not all over the rest of the news stations!!

Reuters is reporting it slightly differently as if it's normal, but who knows what is normal anymore.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/at-least-two-senior-us-state-department-diplomats-leave-posts-officials/ar-AAmhqwj

Gin1984

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1461 on: January 26, 2017, 11:30:13 AM »
The ‘entire senior level’ of State Department management just resigned to avoid working for Trump.

http://www.rawstory.com/2017/01/the-entire-senior-level-of-state-department-management-just-resigned-to-avoid-working-for-trump-report/

This is on Washington post too.  Why is this not all over the rest of the news stations!!

Reuters is reporting it slightly differently as if it's normal, but who knows what is normal anymore.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/at-least-two-senior-us-state-department-diplomats-leave-posts-officials/ar-AAmhqwj
Because it is four people, four important people but still.

Kris

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1462 on: January 26, 2017, 11:34:47 AM »
The ‘entire senior level’ of State Department management just resigned to avoid working for Trump.

http://www.rawstory.com/2017/01/the-entire-senior-level-of-state-department-management-just-resigned-to-avoid-working-for-trump-report/

This is on Washington post too.  Why is this not all over the rest of the news stations!!

Reuters is reporting it slightly differently as if it's normal, but who knows what is normal anymore.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/at-least-two-senior-us-state-department-diplomats-leave-posts-officials/ar-AAmhqwj

That's odd, considering this quote:

“It’s the single biggest simultaneous departure of institutional memory that anyone can remember, and that’s incredibly difficult to replicate,” David Wade, who served as State Department chief of staff during John Kerry’s tenure as America’s top diplomat, tells the Post. “Department expertise in security, management, administrative and consular positions in particular are very difficult to replicate and particularly difficult to find in the private sector.”
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ysette9

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1463 on: January 26, 2017, 11:54:38 AM »
This might provide context

Quote
Ambassador Richard Boucher, who served as State Department spokesman for Colin Powell and Condoleezza Rice, said that while there’s always a lot of turnover around the time a new administration takes office, traditionally senior officials work with the new team to see who should stay on in their roles and what other jobs might be available. But that’s not what happened this time.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/josh-rogin/wp/2017/01/26/the-state-departments-entire-senior-management-team-just-resigned/?utm_term=.f75c20272f2f&wpisrc=nl_most-draw10&wpmm=1
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Inaya

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1464 on: January 26, 2017, 12:28:50 PM »
Doesn't this ultimately just give Trump the ability to insert even more of His People into important positions?
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Kris

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1465 on: January 26, 2017, 12:33:06 PM »
Doesn't this ultimately just give Trump the ability to insert even more of His People into important positions?

That was gonna happen anyway. This way it happens without the benefit of the old guard helping the new make the transition. In the meantime, there is no one in those positions at all.
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nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1466 on: January 26, 2017, 12:37:13 PM »
Doesn't this ultimately just give Trump the ability to insert even more of His People into important positions?
I worry about this, but I also wonder how its going to play out.  If you hire someone who's clearly an outsider or idealouge, he/she won't have the respect of their department and it's very, very hard to get any real productivity out of your department.

This *could* be one method for destroying entire federal agencies; make them so ineffective that you can cut them piecemeal. A combination of "death by attrition + 1,000,000 tiny cuts."  The problem then becomes that these agencies have real functions, and if they become ineffective we lose those functions. We're not going to make deals that are "great for America" if our diplomats and embassies are ineffective and unsupported.
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Poundwise

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1467 on: January 26, 2017, 12:48:07 PM »
I am also concerned because it seems to me that civil servants are the only ones now who stand between Trump and illegal behavior. They are the ones who can say "no" or blow the whistle if he steps over the line.

scottish

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1468 on: January 26, 2017, 01:00:32 PM »
Yep, Trump is trying very hard to establish his dominance over the US govt.    This is a typical step for a new executive to take in a company, no reason he wouldn't do it as head of the executive branch.

nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1469 on: January 26, 2017, 01:49:04 PM »
News: The Mexican Border Wall will be paid for by a 20% tax on Mexican goods.

How is this not Americans paying for the wall?
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bacchi

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1470 on: January 26, 2017, 02:01:55 PM »
News: The Mexican Border Wall will be paid for by a 20% tax on Mexican goods.

How is this not Americans paying for the wall?

Wow, this will not end well for the public or for Trump. He'll have to be damn good (and his supporters will have to be total suckers) to avoid being blamed for a trade war and the resulting economic recession.

waltworks

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1471 on: January 26, 2017, 02:55:48 PM »
Free market/free trade folks must be freaking out. Which I would assume would be a ton of traditional conservatives, since protectionist trade policies are usually seen as a liberal/pro-labor sort of thing.

I'm sort of baffled by the whole thing. Why not just enforce existing laws against hiring illegals better, or increase the penalties?

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sol

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1472 on: January 26, 2017, 03:00:47 PM »
Free market/free trade folks must be freaking out. Which I would assume would be a ton of traditional conservatives, since protectionist trade policies are usually seen as a liberal/pro-labor sort of thing.

I'm sort of baffled by the whole thing. Why not just enforce existing laws against hiring illegals better, or increase the penalties?

-W

And penalize businesses?  Never!

Kris

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1473 on: January 26, 2017, 03:23:58 PM »
Free market/free trade folks must be freaking out. Which I would assume would be a ton of traditional conservatives, since protectionist trade policies are usually seen as a liberal/pro-labor sort of thing.

I'm sort of baffled by the whole thing. Why not just enforce existing laws against hiring illegals better, or increase the penalties?

-W

Because he's obsessed with the damn wall. Trump doesn't have coherent policies. Just obsessions and vanity projects.
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nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1474 on: January 26, 2017, 03:25:24 PM »
Yes to avocados!
No to angry carrots!
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dragoncar

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1475 on: January 26, 2017, 04:43:32 PM »
His core followers need the wall.  They will bend over backwards rationalizing how somehow Mexico is paying for the wall, but if he outright renegs on that promise he could lose his fanatical base.

I think the wall is dumb, but it's hardly his most troubling goal. 

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1476 on: January 26, 2017, 06:36:13 PM »
His core followers need the wall.  They will bend over backwards rationalizing how somehow Mexico is paying for the wall, but if he outright renegs on that promise he could lose his fanatical base.
You are probably right.

I think the wall is dumb, but it's hardly his most troubling goal.
I think the wall is a $20B boondoggle that will accomplish nothing to slow drugs OR immigrants, cause a fortune to police and maintain and symbolically is the polar opposite of our nation's values.

Did none of these people play computer games?  The bigger the wall the more it costs and the harder it is to protect.  I predict that within months people are going to start blowing holes in random sections while drones fly overhead and tunnels are dug benieth.  This will all happen before it ever gets completed.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1477 on: January 26, 2017, 06:51:24 PM »
I am also concerned because it seems to me that civil servants are the only ones now who stand between Trump and illegal behavior. They are the ones who can say "no" or blow the whistle if he steps over the line.
The worst part of this is America's mixed history on governmental whistle blowers... not great in a normal administration, but possibly even worse under a Trump administration.
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calimom

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1478 on: January 26, 2017, 07:09:37 PM »
…..and you can be sure the no-bid contract to build the wall will go to someone in Betsy Devos's  family or some "subsidiary" of the Koch Brothers.

sol

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1479 on: January 26, 2017, 07:41:07 PM »
…..and you can be sure the no-bid contract to build the wall will go to someone in Betsy Devos's  family or some "subsidiary" of the Koch Brothers.

That's optimistic.  I figured it would go directly to Trump Enterprises.

bacchi

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1480 on: January 26, 2017, 08:04:27 PM »
Trump is walking back the 20% tariff idea.

It's like no one in the White House has studied history (Bueller? Bueller?).

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1481 on: January 26, 2017, 08:34:25 PM »
Trump is walking back the 20% tariff idea.

It's like no one in the White House has studied history (Bueller? Bueller?).

The tariff just got 10% higher

dividendman

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1482 on: January 26, 2017, 08:39:07 PM »
Trump is walking back the 20% tariff idea.

It's like no one in the White House has studied history (Bueller? Bueller?).

The tariff just got 10% higher

That's a little ambiguous dragoncar... do you mean it's going to be a 22% tariff or a 30% tariff?

dragoncar

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1483 on: January 26, 2017, 08:43:40 PM »
Trump is walking back the 20% tariff idea.

It's like no one in the White House has studied history (Bueller? Bueller?).

The tariff just got 10% higher


That's a little ambiguous dragoncar... do you mean it's going to be a 22% tariff or a 30% tariff?

Those are just alternative interpretations, both are equally valid

BeginnerStache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1484 on: January 27, 2017, 05:30:16 AM »
Trump is walking back the 20% tariff idea.

It's like no one in the White House has studied history (Bueller? Bueller?).

The tariff just got 10% higher

Eh, why stop at 20 or 30%? Let's do 400%!! That will really hurt middle class Americans and US corporations Mexico

jim555

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1485 on: January 27, 2017, 08:06:48 AM »
I don't get the wall thing.  Couldn't someone just book a flight and overstay the visa?  I see many Indians, Pakistanis, Chinese, etc. and they are not coming in from south of the Rio Grande.

Tariffs will raise the prices in Walmart and hurt the poor, especially in the south.  Trumpees will pay for the wall, not Mexico.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1486 on: January 27, 2017, 08:47:50 AM »
I don't get the wall thing.  Couldn't someone just book a flight and overstay the visa?  I see many Indians, Pakistanis, Chinese, etc. and they are not coming in from south of the Rio Grande.


I don't get it either, except that it's symbolic to some. Walls aren't very effective at stopping immigration, in part for the reasons you mentioned, but also because a 2,000 mile border is nearly impossible to patrol, especially when there is rough terrain along much of it and lots of towns on both sides. A small group of people can scale a 40' wall in under a minute. IEDs could blow holes in the wall on a daily basis.

Its even less effective at stopping the flow of drugs. All you need to do is get a package of drugs to the other side where someone will pick them up.  You can buy remote-controlled drones which can do this (with minor modification) at Best Buy. Bigger ultra-lights can drop 300lbs (or even a person) several miles past the wall. Any kid in shop class can design an air cannon which can clear a wall. The cartels have gotten very good at building tunnels; I was listening to a story on NPR about how a $1M, mile-long tunnel could be built in a few months and paid for with a single run of drugs.

Heck, if were an engineering professor I might give my students a term project to come up with the best low-cost solution for delivering ~20kg packages over a 50' barrier with only supplies available from Home Depot.

To paraphrase someone else: It's medieval technology trying to stop a 21st century problem.
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GuitarStv

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1487 on: January 27, 2017, 09:07:28 AM »
It'll be interesting to see how the US government plans to build the wall given that so much of the land they'll be building on belongs to private citizens.  Will they just appropriate the land outright, will they build the wall behind this land, or what?

wenchsenior

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1488 on: January 27, 2017, 09:09:45 AM »
I don't get the wall thing.  Couldn't someone just book a flight and overstay the visa?  I see many Indians, Pakistanis, Chinese, etc. and they are not coming in from south of the Rio Grande.


I don't get it either, except that it's symbolic to some. Walls aren't very effective at stopping immigration, in part for the reasons you mentioned, but also because a 2,000 mile border is nearly impossible to patrol, especially when there is rough terrain along much of it and lots of towns on both sides. A small group of people can scale a 40' wall in under a minute. IEDs could blow holes in the wall on a daily basis.

Its even less effective at stopping the flow of drugs. All you need to do is get a package of drugs to the other side where someone will pick them up.  You can buy remote-controlled drones which can do this (with minor modification) at Best Buy. Bigger ultra-lights can drop 300lbs (or even a person) several miles past the wall. Any kid in shop class can design an air cannon which can clear a wall. The cartels have gotten very good at building tunnels; I was listening to a story on NPR about how a $1M, mile-long tunnel could be built in a few months and paid for with a single run of drugs.

Heck, if were an engineering professor I might give my students a term project to come up with the best low-cost solution for delivering ~20kg packages over a 50' barrier with only supplies available from Home Depot.

To paraphrase someone else: It's medieval technology trying to stop a 21st century problem.

I was listening to a talk show about this topic yesterday, and they were discussing the impracticality and expense of a wall and wondering why The Wall concept was so attractive to Trump supporters when it was so obviously not an efficient way to reduce border crossings. And this Trump supporter called in and explained that he personally REALLY wanted a HUGE AWESOME wall, not so much because it was practical, but because he wanted America to send a message that we could build something so impressive and spectacular and symbolically important. He actually said he was sure it would become a massive tourist attraction, and generate of ton of money, just like the Great Wall of China.

So, just one Trump supporter's view on The Most Beautiful Wall.

(Incidentally, my husband used to be a border patrol field agent. He spent plenty of time patrolling, placing and monitoring sensors, and laying up fully armed in the desert to bust illegal drug deliveries and migrants. He thinks the concept of a wall is the stupidest and most impractical thing he's ever heard in his life and anyone who supports it is a complete moron.  So there you have one opposition view, for balance LOL).

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1489 on: January 27, 2017, 09:24:58 AM »
It'll be interesting to see how the US government plans to build the wall given that so much of the land they'll be building on belongs to private citizens.  Will they just appropriate the land outright, will they build the wall behind this land, or what?

WaPo did a good synposis of the challenges faced with building a wall (link here).
Regarding land - that's a huge problem.  60% of the border in Texas is privately owned and there will doubtless be lawsuits and 'eminent domain' challenges up the wazoo.
Logistically there's the problem that part or the border is along the Rio Grande, and you can't build large concrete structures easily next to a river that likes to miander - so either you build it away from the riverbanks or you spend a god-awful amount of time/money 'armoring' the shoreline, which only works for short (~decade) timescales.  If you build further back from the river you are effectively cutting off many towns, ranches and roads that currently are right next to the river.
Currently there already some people and property who live on the mexican side of border fences.

In the more remote places (of which there are hundreds of miles) we'll need to build paved roads in order to get heavy construction equipment in.  It's like building a highway to nowhere so that you can build a wall only to (presumably) get rid of the highway a year or two later.
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nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1490 on: January 27, 2017, 09:40:28 AM »
Quote
I was listening to a talk show about this topic yesterday, and they were discussing the impracticality and expense of a wall and wondering why The Wall concept was so attractive to Trump supporters when it was so obviously not an efficient way to reduce border crossings. And this Trump supporter called in and explained that he personally REALLY wanted a HUGE AWESOME wall, not so much because it was practical, but because he wanted America to send a message that we could build something so impressive and spectacular and symbolically important. He actually said he was sure it would become a massive tourist attraction, and generate of ton of money, just like the Great Wall of China.

That's not very comforting.  Most historians regard the Great Wall of China to be an economic failure. It cost too much to build (both in treasure and lives), took an enormous amount of money and soldiers to maintain and defend, and ultimately illicit trade occcurred between the border guards and those 'barbarians' on the other side.

Everything I've seen is for construction of a simple, ~40' concrete slab wall.  If Trump wants it to be a tourist attraction (like something you could walk/run on top of) the cost will go up exponentially.  Tourism also effectively nullifies its purpose; how do you keep a barrier secure when lots of people keep traveling to it and want to touch it and take selfies on/in front of it?  It would be a security nightmare.
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golden1

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1491 on: January 27, 2017, 09:43:48 AM »
The realistic impact for today is that we are actually sitting here in 2017 having a conversation about building a border wall on Mexico.  Like, think about an alternative universe where we could be actually think about doing useful shit. 

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1492 on: January 27, 2017, 09:50:02 AM »
Quote
I was listening to a talk show about this topic yesterday, and they were discussing the impracticality and expense of a wall and wondering why The Wall concept was so attractive to Trump supporters when it was so obviously not an efficient way to reduce border crossings. And this Trump supporter called in and explained that he personally REALLY wanted a HUGE AWESOME wall, not so much because it was practical, but because he wanted America to send a message that we could build something so impressive and spectacular and symbolically important. He actually said he was sure it would become a massive tourist attraction, and generate of ton of money, just like the Great Wall of China.

That's not very comforting. Most historians regard the Great Wall of China to be an economic failure. It cost too much to build (both in treasure and lives), took an enormous amount of money and soldiers to maintain and defend, and ultimately illicit trade occcurred between the border guards and those 'barbarians' on the other side.

Everything I've seen is for construction of a simple, ~40' concrete slab wall.  If Trump wants it to be a tourist attraction (like something you could walk/run on top of) the cost will go up exponentially.  Tourism also effectively nullifies its purpose; how do you keep a barrier secure when lots of people keep traveling to it and want to touch it and take selfies on/in front of it?  It would be a security nightmare.

That was kind of my point. If this is the 'reasoning' driving the desire for a wall, then my opinion is the supporters are idiots.  In reality, who knows how many supporters think this way...

JLee

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1493 on: January 27, 2017, 09:51:17 AM »
Quote
I was listening to a talk show about this topic yesterday, and they were discussing the impracticality and expense of a wall and wondering why The Wall concept was so attractive to Trump supporters when it was so obviously not an efficient way to reduce border crossings. And this Trump supporter called in and explained that he personally REALLY wanted a HUGE AWESOME wall, not so much because it was practical, but because he wanted America to send a message that we could build something so impressive and spectacular and symbolically important. He actually said he was sure it would become a massive tourist attraction, and generate of ton of money, just like the Great Wall of China.

That's not very comforting. Most historians regard the Great Wall of China to be an economic failure. It cost too much to build (both in treasure and lives), took an enormous amount of money and soldiers to maintain and defend, and ultimately illicit trade occcurred between the border guards and those 'barbarians' on the other side.

Everything I've seen is for construction of a simple, ~40' concrete slab wall.  If Trump wants it to be a tourist attraction (like something you could walk/run on top of) the cost will go up exponentially.  Tourism also effectively nullifies its purpose; how do you keep a barrier secure when lots of people keep traveling to it and want to touch it and take selfies on/in front of it?  It would be a security nightmare.

That was kind of my point. If this is the 'reasoning' driving the desire for a wall, then my opinion is the supporters are idiots. In reality, who knows how many supporters think this way...

That's effectively the conclusion I arrived at as well.

nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1494 on: January 27, 2017, 10:00:18 AM »
Which global leader will be the first to say:
"Mr Trump - tear down this wall"?
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SisterX

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1495 on: January 27, 2017, 10:01:50 AM »
Quote
I was listening to a talk show about this topic yesterday, and they were discussing the impracticality and expense of a wall and wondering why The Wall concept was so attractive to Trump supporters when it was so obviously not an efficient way to reduce border crossings. And this Trump supporter called in and explained that he personally REALLY wanted a HUGE AWESOME wall, not so much because it was practical, but because he wanted America to send a message that we could build something so impressive and spectacular and symbolically important. He actually said he was sure it would become a massive tourist attraction, and generate of ton of money, just like the Great Wall of China.

That's not very comforting. Most historians regard the Great Wall of China to be an economic failure. It cost too much to build (both in treasure and lives), took an enormous amount of money and soldiers to maintain and defend, and ultimately illicit trade occcurred between the border guards and those 'barbarians' on the other side.

Everything I've seen is for construction of a simple, ~40' concrete slab wall.  If Trump wants it to be a tourist attraction (like something you could walk/run on top of) the cost will go up exponentially.  Tourism also effectively nullifies its purpose; how do you keep a barrier secure when lots of people keep traveling to it and want to touch it and take selfies on/in front of it?  It would be a security nightmare.

That was kind of my point. If this is the 'reasoning' driving the desire for a wall, then my opinion is the supporters are idiots. In reality, who knows how many supporters think this way...

That's effectively the conclusion I arrived at as well.

Oh, come on, guys! Walls work! Duh.

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nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1497 on: January 27, 2017, 10:05:08 AM »
Which global leader will be the first to say:
"Mr Trump - tear down this wall"?

If we include former leaders, it might be Gorbachev:

http://www.theweek.co.uk/65094/wwiii-threat-of-nuclear-war-seems-real-again-warns-gorbachev

a bit naive of me, but I honestly didn't realize that Mikhail Gorbachev was still alive. 
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radram

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1498 on: January 27, 2017, 10:17:11 AM »
Which global leader will be the first to say:
"Mr Trump - tear down this wall"?

If we include former leaders, it might be Gorbachev:

http://www.theweek.co.uk/65094/wwiii-threat-of-nuclear-war-seems-real-again-warns-gorbachev



a bit naive of me, but I honestly didn't realize that Mikhail Gorbachev was still alive.

+1 Me too.

BeginnerStache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1499 on: January 27, 2017, 10:31:35 AM »
Which global leader will be the first to say:
"Mr Trump - tear down this wall"?

If we include former leaders, it might be Gorbachev:

http://www.theweek.co.uk/65094/wwiii-threat-of-nuclear-war-seems-real-again-warns-gorbachev



a bit naive of me, but I honestly didn't realize that Mikhail Gorbachev was still alive.

+1 Me too.

Add me to that list. Geesh!