Author Topic: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?  (Read 205529 times)

nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1250 on: January 23, 2017, 06:22:57 AM »
Thought the White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer's lies were pretty good today. So totally brazen.

Quote
This was the largest audience to ever witness an inauguration ó period ó both in person and around the globe
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/the-traditional-way-of-reporting-on-a-president-is-dead-and-trumps-press-secretary-killed-it/2017/01/22/75403a00-e0bf-11e6-a453-19ec4b3d09ba_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_sullivan-514pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.f4071ee21d07

Wow.

And then Kellyann Conway's assertion that their team has "alternative facts."

I'm going to have to stop reading the news to stop being drenched with the daily deluge of stupid.

Once again I'm left wondering: Does DJT really believe his own lies, or is he just convinced that he can sell them to enough people?
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former player

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1251 on: January 23, 2017, 06:30:18 AM »
Once again I'm left wondering: Does DJT really believe his own lies, or is he just convinced that he can sell them to enough people?
He believes them because he has to believe them, otherwise his fragile ego collapses in a heap (see my Narcissistic Personality Disorder post above).

The extraordinary thing is that his NPD is so severe that it is more important to him than the role of President of the United States.  I mean, the NPD was pretty obvious during the campaign but there was always the hope that becoming President would outweigh it: I think Trump has already conclusively proved that it hasn't.

The really scary thing is of course that Trump has surrounded himself in office with people who have also either bought into Trump's pathological errors or who are going along with them for their own reasons.  I would love a reporter to stand up in the next Presidential news briefing that tries to peddle a lie and ask "Do you honestly believe the lie you have just told or are you merely pandering to the President's delusion?
« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 06:47:34 AM by former player »
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nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1252 on: January 23, 2017, 06:49:11 AM »
Once again I'm left wondering: Does DJT really believe his own lies, or is he just convinced that he can sell them to enough people?
He believes them because he has to believe them, otherwise his fragile ego collapses in a heap (see my Narcissistic Personality Disorder post above).

The extraordinary thing is that his NPD is so severe that it is more important to him than the role of President of the United States.  I mean, the NPD was pretty obvious during the campaign but there was always the hope that becoming President would outweigh it: I think Trump has already conclusively proved that it hasn't.

The really scary thing is of course that Trump has surrounded himself in office with people who have also either bought into Trump's pathological errors or who are going along with them for their own reasons.
I won't diagnose anyone's personality disorder, but I will agree with you that the number of people who are complicit with these most blatant lies is extremely troubling.
Until there's some sort of consequence for repeating them I don't think this will stop.
I wonder if this period in our history will be studied as another example of group-hysteria.
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GuitarStv

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1253 on: January 23, 2017, 07:04:51 AM »
Eh, Israel can't annex Palestine. The Palestinians have more kids than Israelis. Unless the Palestinians are denied the right to vote (like apartheid and definitely possible with the Likud party in charge), Israel would be facing a voting demographic change they may not like.

Palestine is currently under control by Israel (police control, military control, Israeli enforced curfew, Israeli control of movement within Palestine, Israeli control of goods in/out of the country, etc.) and unable to vote in Israeli elections.  They're a separate country in name only.  I'd be shocked for this to change at all once Israel completes their ongoing annexation of Palestine.



Quote
You have land that Israel has steadily invaded and captured through the history.

You know, this has always bothered me a bit.   Israel captured those territories in the 6 days war which was started by Egypt.

Israel has regularly expanded their territory since coming to the area.  The last large territory grab was taken when Israel attacked Egypt and started the six day war.  Since then (over the past forty years) Israeli settlers have regularly moved into Palestinian lands, forcibly evicted Palestinians, and then enlisted the aid of the Israeli armed forces to prevent the Palestinians from retaking it.  There is no indication that this behaviour will ever stop, and the Palestinians have no recourse to prevent it.



And pragmatically, Israeli society has a lot more in common with US or Canadian society than the various Arab states do.   You know, things like women's rights, democratic leadership, being able to industrialize and innovate and produce things.    There's a pretty good argument that the UN resolutions around this topic aren't for the best.

Generally, yeah.  Israel treats Israeli women much better than Palestine treats Palestinian women.  I mean technically there's suffrage in Palestine . . . but there are plenty of problems with enforcing Islamic codes of dress, honor killings, etc.  In that way, I guess that it's more like Canada or the US.

For your other points though . . . Palestine has held regular elections and had democratic leadership for 20 years.  They've actually got pretty good education rates for a middle eastern country.  It has been proven impossible for the Palestinians to industrialize and innovate under Israeli occupation.  How is industrialization supposed to happen when most goods going either way are turned back at the border by Israelis?

Gin1984

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1254 on: January 23, 2017, 07:46:02 AM »
Once again I'm left wondering: Does DJT really believe his own lies, or is he just convinced that he can sell them to enough people?
He believes them because he has to believe them, otherwise his fragile ego collapses in a heap (see my Narcissistic Personality Disorder post above).

The extraordinary thing is that his NPD is so severe that it is more important to him than the role of President of the United States.  I mean, the NPD was pretty obvious during the campaign but there was always the hope that becoming President would outweigh it: I think Trump has already conclusively proved that it hasn't.

The really scary thing is of course that Trump has surrounded himself in office with people who have also either bought into Trump's pathological errors or who are going along with them for their own reasons.
I won't diagnose anyone's personality disorder, but I will agree with you that the number of people who are complicit with these most blatant lies is extremely troubling.
Until there's some sort of consequence for repeating them I don't think this will stop.
I wonder if this period in our history will be studied as another example of group-hysteria.
Which is why people need to call people who do this, out.  Flat out say it is a lie.  Or if that is too harsh, factually inaccurate. Don't let people "agree to disagree", you can do that with opinions, not facts.

nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1255 on: January 23, 2017, 07:57:07 AM »
Once again I'm left wondering: Does DJT really believe his own lies, or is he just convinced that he can sell them to enough people?
He believes them because he has to believe them, otherwise his fragile ego collapses in a heap (see my Narcissistic Personality Disorder post above).

The extraordinary thing is that his NPD is so severe that it is more important to him than the role of President of the United States.  I mean, the NPD was pretty obvious during the campaign but there was always the hope that becoming President would outweigh it: I think Trump has already conclusively proved that it hasn't.

The really scary thing is of course that Trump has surrounded himself in office with people who have also either bought into Trump's pathological errors or who are going along with them for their own reasons.
I won't diagnose anyone's personality disorder, but I will agree with you that the number of people who are complicit with these most blatant lies is extremely troubling.
Until there's some sort of consequence for repeating them I don't think this will stop.
I wonder if this period in our history will be studied as another example of group-hysteria.
Which is why people need to call people who do this, out.  Flat out say it is a lie.  Or if that is too harsh, factually inaccurate. Don't let people "agree to disagree", you can do that with opinions, not facts.
While I absolutely agree with you in principle, it hasn't been very effective so far. DJT lashes out at the media for being "dishonest", countless websites are dedicated to fact-checking and there are angry howls every time a new falsehood surfaces, regardless of whether the falsehood has important and far-reaching implications ("Obama's birth certificate is fake!") or not ("biggest crowd ever!").
Despite this, the lies are becoming more brazen and ridiculous, and supporters seem no less inclined to believe them. In some ways pointing out obvious lies causes the opposite of the anticipated effect in a true example of political irony.
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Daleth

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1256 on: January 23, 2017, 08:00:10 AM »
Quote
You have land that Israel has steadily invaded and captured through the history.

You know, this has always bothered me a bit.   Israel captured those territories in the 6 days war which was started by Egypt.

And pragmatically, Israeli society has a lot more in common with US or Canadian society than the various Arab states do.   You know, things like women's rights, democratic leadership, being able to industrialize and innovate and produce things.    There's a pretty good argument that the UN resolutions around this topic aren't for the best.

Totally agree.

MasterStache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1257 on: January 23, 2017, 08:10:13 AM »
Trump's policy objectives are up   https://www.whitehouse.gov/law-enforcement-community

"We must take advantage of the estimated $50 trillion in untapped shale, oil, and natural gas reserves, especially those on federal lands that the American people own. "

Makes me want to puke. Seriously.
Leveraging our future for the present?
More to the point, all this talk of increasing drilling and fracking and mining will do little while the cost of fossil fuels is as low as it is. While supply has dipped and demand has increased, we still have an over-supply of oil already.  Basic economics; for each additional barrel of oil we get less for it; trying to "unlock" large chunks of fossil fuels will face the laws of diminishing returns.
Then of course there's the OPEC bloc (plus Russia) - if the US market share starts increasing they're likely to flood the market with cheap oil again to preserve market share.  US rigs are all privately owned, so they'll respond to market forces.
They did it two years ago.

The current WH energy plan sounds like it was conjured by a climate-denying elementary school kid.

Yep, not much money to be made in drilling these days.

golden1

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1258 on: January 23, 2017, 08:32:03 AM »
Quote
I won't diagnose anyone's personality disorder, but I will agree with you that the number of people who are complicit with these most blatant lies is extremely troubling.
Until there's some sort of consequence for repeating them I don't think this will stop.
I wonder if this period in our history will be studied as another example of group-hysteria.

One of the things I have noticed since the election that troubles me is the underlying anger of the hard-core trumpers.  Their guy won, but they aren't celebrating, they are still furious.  Trump has an extremely loyal group of people that will justify and fall in line with every lie he says.  It is absolutely crazy, and tremendously disturbing.  It reminds me of Jonestown.  I think if he asked, they would kill and die for him.  They are already at the point where they are perfectly okay with saying 2+2 =5.  They are all in, forever. 

GuitarStv

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1259 on: January 23, 2017, 08:37:23 AM »
Quote
I won't diagnose anyone's personality disorder, but I will agree with you that the number of people who are complicit with these most blatant lies is extremely troubling.
Until there's some sort of consequence for repeating them I don't think this will stop.
I wonder if this period in our history will be studied as another example of group-hysteria.

One of the things I have noticed since the election that troubles me is the underlying anger of the hard-core trumpers.  Their guy won, but they aren't celebrating, they are still furious.  Trump has an extremely loyal group of people that will justify and fall in line with every lie he says.  It is absolutely crazy, and tremendously disturbing.  It reminds me of Jonestown.  I think if he asked, they would kill and die for him.  They are already at the point where they are perfectly okay with saying 2+2 =5.  They are all in, forever.

Of course they're alright with 2+2 equalling 5.  It's simply an alternate fact.

nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1260 on: January 23, 2017, 08:44:04 AM »
Quote
I won't diagnose anyone's personality disorder, but I will agree with you that the number of people who are complicit with these most blatant lies is extremely troubling.
Until there's some sort of consequence for repeating them I don't think this will stop.
I wonder if this period in our history will be studied as another example of group-hysteria.

One of the things I have noticed since the election that troubles me is the underlying anger of the hard-core trumpers.  Their guy won, but they aren't celebrating, they are still furious.  Trump has an extremely loyal group of people that will justify and fall in line with every lie he says.  It is absolutely crazy, and tremendously disturbing. It reminds me of Jonestown.  I think if he asked, they would kill and die for him.  They are already at the point where they are perfectly okay with saying 2+2 =5.  They are all in, forever.

What's Jonestown?
(I also share your view that the most hard-core supporters, of which I am related to two, seem to be angry and combative)
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deadlymonkey

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1261 on: January 23, 2017, 08:53:29 AM »
Quote
I won't diagnose anyone's personality disorder, but I will agree with you that the number of people who are complicit with these most blatant lies is extremely troubling.
Until there's some sort of consequence for repeating them I don't think this will stop.
I wonder if this period in our history will be studied as another example of group-hysteria.

One of the things I have noticed since the election that troubles me is the underlying anger of the hard-core trumpers.  Their guy won, but they aren't celebrating, they are still furious.  Trump has an extremely loyal group of people that will justify and fall in line with every lie he says.  It is absolutely crazy, and tremendously disturbing. It reminds me of Jonestown.  I think if he asked, they would kill and die for him.  They are already at the point where they are perfectly okay with saying 2+2 =5.  They are all in, forever.

What's Jonestown?
(I also share your view that the most hard-core supporters, of which I am related to two, seem to be angry and combative)

Jonestown was a cult that relocated to South America from the states and resulted in the largest mass suicide recorded, more than 900 people willing walked up and knowingly drank poisoned Kool-Aid (creating the phrase, he drank the Kool-Aid...)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown

nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1262 on: January 23, 2017, 09:13:25 AM »
Quote
I won't diagnose anyone's personality disorder, but I will agree with you that the number of people who are complicit with these most blatant lies is extremely troubling.
Until there's some sort of consequence for repeating them I don't think this will stop.
I wonder if this period in our history will be studied as another example of group-hysteria.

One of the things I have noticed since the election that troubles me is the underlying anger of the hard-core trumpers.  Their guy won, but they aren't celebrating, they are still furious.  Trump has an extremely loyal group of people that will justify and fall in line with every lie he says.  It is absolutely crazy, and tremendously disturbing.  It reminds me of Jonestown.  I think if he asked, they would kill and die for him.  They are already at the point where they are perfectly okay with saying 2+2 =5.  They are all in, forever.

As a counterpoint, I find this statement quite generic and it can be applied to any politician.  There are always hardcore loyalists.  I find the rest of the comment non-productive to the topic and seems more like fear-mongering than any meaningful discussion.

It seems pretty on-topic to me.  Allow me to rephrase it like this: One of the impacts of Trump being president is that his core supporters continue to support his lies (now "alternative facts"), and unlike previous supporters who have been mixtures of joyful and jubilent at having their candidate in office, Trump supporters seem angry and are pushing to have large parts of the system blown up.

To me it seems to be very different from the core supporters of Obama, W, Clinton or Bush Sr. after their respective victories.
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nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1263 on: January 23, 2017, 10:09:03 AM »
Much better put nereo.  Trump ran with a nationalist agenda and a big part of it was to make significant changes or "blow up the system" as you stated.  So it seems logical that his supporters continue to push for this.  Why would they simply be happy that their candidate got elected - they want the changes he promised.

I watched some of the news coverage and I didn't see angry supporters - I saw joyful supporters.  Joyful supporters that still want to blow up the system.  The anger I saw was coming from the protesters - and this is expected as well.

I see a desire to destroy as being a form of anger. I'm also seeing a lot of combativeness vs attempts at unification. Perhaps we are just seeing different subsets of this population. Shrug.
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DoubleDown

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1264 on: January 23, 2017, 10:41:07 AM »
That is Trump, in his first full day as President of the United States, telling the CIA how many times he has been on the cover of Time magazine.  Twice.  Donald, it's the CIA: if they cared they could find out.

Let's add to this that he chose the Memorial Wall at the CIA (honoring officers who gave their lives in service to the CIA and their country) as his literal backdrop for his rant against 'media lies' and his crowd sizes. What a disgusting display of lack of honor and decency. I'm so glad Brennan called him out on this. His next trip should probably be to Arlington Cemetery or the Holocaust Museum so he can rant about how great Trump Steaks are and how the Mexicans and Chinese are raping us and how he didn't grab any pussies like the lying media says he did.
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nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1265 on: January 23, 2017, 10:47:24 AM »
That is Trump, in his first full day as President of the United States, telling the CIA how many times he has been on the cover of Time magazine.  Twice.  Donald, it's the CIA: if they cared they could find out.

Let's add to this that he chose the Memorial Wall at the CIA (honoring officers who gave their lives in service to the CIA and their country) as his literal backdrop for his rant against 'media lies' and his crowd sizes. What a disgusting display of lack of honor and decency. I'm so glad Brennan called him out on this.

I was flabbergasted that he did this, but I'm going to chalk this up to him and his team being utterly inexperienced at politics. Any small-town mayor would have seen that as inappropriate, but DJT looks at the Memorial Wall and says "What a fabulous backdrop this would make.  It's got stars and a flag and words like 'Honor'"
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DoubleDown

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1266 on: January 23, 2017, 11:08:10 AM »
That is Trump, in his first full day as President of the United States, telling the CIA how many times he has been on the cover of Time magazine.  Twice.  Donald, it's the CIA: if they cared they could find out.

Let's add to this that he chose the Memorial Wall at the CIA (honoring officers who gave their lives in service to the CIA and their country) as his literal backdrop for his rant against 'media lies' and his crowd sizes. What a disgusting display of lack of honor and decency. I'm so glad Brennan called him out on this.

I was flabbergasted that he did this, but I'm going to chalk this up to him and his team being utterly inexperienced at politics decency. Any small-town mayor would have seen that as inappropriate, but DJT looks at the Memorial Wall and says "What a fabulous backdrop this would make.  It's got stars and a flag and words like 'Honor'"

Ha, agreed, but FTFY
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packlawyer04

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1267 on: January 23, 2017, 11:13:09 AM »
Met with business leaders this morning trying to find a way to create more middle class jobs here in America. Oh the horror.  Hitler............


Kris

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1268 on: January 23, 2017, 11:16:34 AM »
^
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

packlawyer04

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1269 on: January 23, 2017, 11:17:23 AM »
^

Thanks for posting pictures of the protesters I saw on TV Saturday. I also saw some crazy green colored hair as well.

sol

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1270 on: January 23, 2017, 12:18:19 PM »
Today's impacts:  another federal hiring freeze which is going to cost millions of dollars, and another federal pay freeze which is going to save millions of dollars but cost my family thousands.

Fortunately this only pushes my retirement date back by a few weeks/months, because we are already so close.  It would suck a lot more to be an early career federal employee.

MasterStache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1271 on: January 23, 2017, 12:47:14 PM »
Met with business leaders this morning trying to find a way to create more middle class jobs here in America. Oh the horror.  Hitler............

Hitler regimeís economic policy was describes as "large scale borrowing for public expenditures, and at first this was principally for civilian work -- railroads, canals and the Autobahnen [highway network]. The result was a far more effective attack on unemployment than in any other industrial country."

Hitler often spoke of the misery of the middleclass: "Along with the hungry unemployed millions of industrial workers there is the impoverishment of the whole middle class and the artisans."

I could go on. The similarities in rhetoric is absolutely frightening.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1272 on: January 23, 2017, 01:00:38 PM »
Met with business leaders this morning trying to find a way to create more middle class jobs here in America. Oh the horror.  Hitler............

Hitler regimeís economic policy was describes as "large scale borrowing for public expenditures, and at first this was principally for civilian work -- railroads, canals and the Autobahnen [highway network]. The result was a far more effective attack on unemployment than in any other industrial country."

Hitler often spoke of the misery of the middleclass: "Along with the hungry unemployed millions of industrial workers there is the impoverishment of the whole middle class and the artisans."

I could go on. The similarities in rhetoric is absolutely frightening.

Even if you set aside the Hitler comparisons for a moment ... I don't think anyone expects him to focus all of his time on punching poor people in the face. Blind squirrels and all that.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

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ncornilsen

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1273 on: January 23, 2017, 01:28:53 PM »
Met with business leaders this morning trying to find a way to create more middle class jobs here in America. Oh the horror.  Hitler............

Hitler regimeís economic policy was describes as "large scale borrowing for public expenditures, and at first this was principally for civilian work -- railroads, canals and the Autobahnen [highway network]. The result was a far more effective attack on unemployment than in any other industrial country."

Hitler often spoke of the misery of the middleclass: "Along with the hungry unemployed millions of industrial workers there is the impoverishment of the whole middle class and the artisans."

I could go on. The similarities in rhetoric is absolutely frightening.

Even if you set aside the Hitler comparisons for a moment ... I don't think anyone expects him to focus all of his time on punching poor people in the face. Blind squirrels and all that.

I've always found the Hitler comparisons to be rather lame, when used against trump, Clinton, Bush, Sanders, etc. He said the things people wanted to hear. So did sanders, so did Obama, so did Bush, etc. Its just politicking. I'm not unconcerned about some of the material proposals Trump has made, but it's a little early to tap out on the whole 'godwin's law' thing.

That said, how should Trump handle it when there's a factual inaccuracy? should he just do what Obama did and be quiet about it?

As someone who hoped trump would get in line and accomplish some of the things that actually WOULD be beneficial to us, it's incredibly frustrating to see him wasting time and continuing to be a shithead, for what seems to be the sake of it.


Gin1984

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1274 on: January 23, 2017, 01:56:13 PM »
Well there is this:
WASHINGTON ― On Monday, surrounded by other white men, President Donald Trump signed an anti-abortion executive order that has far-reaching consequences for womenís reproductive health access worldwide.

Trump reinstated the Mexico City policy, also known as the global gag rule, which was first put in place by President Ronald Reagan in 1984. It prohibits giving U.S. funding to international nongovernmental organizations that offer or advise on a wide range of family planning and reproductive health options if they include abortion ― even if U.S. dollars are not specifically used for abortion-related services.

The United States spends about $600 million a year on international assistance for family planning and reproductive health programs, making it possible for 27 million women and couples to access contraceptive services and supplies.

None of that money is spent on performing abortions. The Helms amendment has prevented U.S. tax dollars from funding overseas abortions since 1973. Proponents of the global gag rule believe the policy is nevertheless still necessary, arguing that Helms isnít strong enough by itself.

The executive order is one of the first Trump has signed since taking office. Sitting in the Oval Office Monday, he also signed ones freezing federal hiring and withdrawing from the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade deal.

A pan of the people standing by his side showed that there were few, if any, women present.


MSNBC
Trumpís executive order has severe implications and could be deadly for women and girls in developing countries and conflict zones, who often resort to dangerous methods of ending their pregnancies when they lack access to safe abortion. The World Health Organization estimates that more than 21 million women a year have unsafe abortions in developing countries, accounting for about 13 percent of all maternal deaths.

The policy is rescinded and reinstated based on which party is in power. President Bill Clinton did away with it, President George W. Bush put it back and then President Barack Obama rescinded it again when he took office.

Kris

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1275 on: January 23, 2017, 02:54:59 PM »
Well there is this:
WASHINGTON ― On Monday, surrounded by other white men, President Donald Trump signed an anti-abortion executive order that has far-reaching consequences for womenís reproductive health access worldwide.

Trump reinstated the Mexico City policy, also known as the global gag rule, which was first put in place by President Ronald Reagan in 1984. It prohibits giving U.S. funding to international nongovernmental organizations that offer or advise on a wide range of family planning and reproductive health options if they include abortion ― even if U.S. dollars are not specifically used for abortion-related services.

The United States spends about $600 million a year on international assistance for family planning and reproductive health programs, making it possible for 27 million women and couples to access contraceptive services and supplies.

None of that money is spent on performing abortions. The Helms amendment has prevented U.S. tax dollars from funding overseas abortions since 1973. Proponents of the global gag rule believe the policy is nevertheless still necessary, arguing that Helms isnít strong enough by itself.

The executive order is one of the first Trump has signed since taking office. Sitting in the Oval Office Monday, he also signed ones freezing federal hiring and withdrawing from the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade deal.

A pan of the people standing by his side showed that there were few, if any, women present.


MSNBC
Trumpís executive order has severe implications and could be deadly for women and girls in developing countries and conflict zones, who often resort to dangerous methods of ending their pregnancies when they lack access to safe abortion. The World Health Organization estimates that more than 21 million women a year have unsafe abortions in developing countries, accounting for about 13 percent of all maternal deaths.

The policy is rescinded and reinstated based on which party is in power. President Bill Clinton did away with it, President George W. Bush put it back and then President Barack Obama rescinded it again when he took office.

Anyone who is truly pro-life should be outraged by this and calling their congresspeople to demand action.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

jeninco

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1276 on: January 23, 2017, 03:04:20 PM »
Well there is this:
WASHINGTON ― On Monday, surrounded by other white men, President Donald Trump signed an anti-abortion executive order that has far-reaching consequences for womenís reproductive health access worldwide.

Trump reinstated the Mexico City policy, also known as the global gag rule, which was first put in place by President Ronald Reagan in 1984. It prohibits giving U.S. funding to international nongovernmental organizations that offer or advise on a wide range of family planning and reproductive health options if they include abortion ― even if U.S. dollars are not specifically used for abortion-related services.

The United States spends about $600 million a year on international assistance for family planning and reproductive health programs, making it possible for 27 million women and couples to access contraceptive services and supplies.

None of that money is spent on performing abortions. The Helms amendment has prevented U.S. tax dollars from funding overseas abortions since 1973. Proponents of the global gag rule believe the policy is nevertheless still necessary, arguing that Helms isnít strong enough by itself.

The executive order is one of the first Trump has signed since taking office. Sitting in the Oval Office Monday, he also signed ones freezing federal hiring and withdrawing from the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade deal.

A pan of the people standing by his side showed that there were few, if any, women present.


MSNBC
Trumpís executive order has severe implications and could be deadly for women and girls in developing countries and conflict zones, who often resort to dangerous methods of ending their pregnancies when they lack access to safe abortion. The World Health Organization estimates that more than 21 million women a year have unsafe abortions in developing countries, accounting for about 13 percent of all maternal deaths.

The policy is rescinded and reinstated based on which party is in power. President Bill Clinton did away with it, President George W. Bush put it back and then President Barack Obama rescinded it again when he took office.

Anyone who is truly pro-life should be outraged by this and calling their congresspeople to demand action.

OK, I'm genuinely curious (and I have a one-topic-per-day policy for calling my representatives): if this is a presidential decree, what can my representatives do about it?  If there's some constructive purpose in calling, I'll send out a group email, but this one feels like spitting into a tsunami.
(And, to be clear, this kind of BS completely infuriates me. It disproportionately hurts poor women and children in poor countries and accomplishes no good whatsoever.)

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1277 on: January 23, 2017, 03:11:11 PM »
Well there is this:
WASHINGTON ― On Monday, surrounded by other white men, President Donald Trump signed an anti-abortion executive order that has far-reaching consequences for womenís reproductive health access worldwide.

Trump reinstated the Mexico City policy, also known as the global gag rule, which was first put in place by President Ronald Reagan in 1984. It prohibits giving U.S. funding to international nongovernmental organizations that offer or advise on a wide range of family planning and reproductive health options if they include abortion ― even if U.S. dollars are not specifically used for abortion-related services.

The United States spends about $600 million a year on international assistance for family planning and reproductive health programs, making it possible for 27 million women and couples to access contraceptive services and supplies.

None of that money is spent on performing abortions. The Helms amendment has prevented U.S. tax dollars from funding overseas abortions since 1973. Proponents of the global gag rule believe the policy is nevertheless still necessary, arguing that Helms isnít strong enough by itself.

The executive order is one of the first Trump has signed since taking office. Sitting in the Oval Office Monday, he also signed ones freezing federal hiring and withdrawing from the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade deal.

A pan of the people standing by his side showed that there were few, if any, women present.


MSNBC
Trumpís executive order has severe implications and could be deadly for women and girls in developing countries and conflict zones, who often resort to dangerous methods of ending their pregnancies when they lack access to safe abortion. The World Health Organization estimates that more than 21 million women a year have unsafe abortions in developing countries, accounting for about 13 percent of all maternal deaths.

The policy is rescinded and reinstated based on which party is in power. President Bill Clinton did away with it, President George W. Bush put it back and then President Barack Obama rescinded it again when he took office.

Anyone who is truly pro-life should be outraged by this and calling their congresspeople to demand action.
Can't get much more pro-life than I am, and I am delighted this policy is rescinded.
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ncornilsen

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1278 on: January 23, 2017, 03:13:20 PM »
Can anyone point to data about how whether this is rescinded/not rescinded actually affects outcomes? I spent a while googling for it, and found no data either way. Even the pro-choice groups who are against this just insist that it's bad...  seems like we should have that data, since the bit has been flipped Reagan+bush/Clinton/bush/Obama. This data would help make a case to a legislator to support rescinding the rule.

I'm wondering if this is one of those things where the rule doesn't really affect anything because they just shift dollars around and do the same thing. Lets hope, anyway.  If it does actually affect outcomes, the data should show it. If there is no change, that speaks for its self.

*I am pro-"not the gov'ts place to ban abortion, but think some discussion about whether the government directly funds it is warranted" so if you want to paint with a brush, you can pre-emptively fuck off.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 03:25:47 PM by ncornilsen »

nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1279 on: January 23, 2017, 03:15:58 PM »
Quote
OK, I'm genuinely curious (and I have a one-topic-per-day policy for calling my representatives): if this is a presidential decree, what can my representatives do about it?  If there's some constructive purpose in calling, I'll send out a group email, but this one feels like spitting into a tsunami.
(And, to be clear, this kind of BS completely infuriates me. It disproportionately hurts poor women and children in poor countries and accomplishes no good whatsoever.)

there is nothing that your congress person can do directly. They can put political pressure by telling the WH they wont' support future/current bills if he does things like that. If your congress person leads any sub-committees (which is very likely) he/she can have a large influence about which bills make it to the floor and when.
Ultimately the WH needs votes in congress (especially with it being so closely divided), and your representatives are always going to do what they think it best to stay in power and get relected. Having worked as a congressional page many years ago I'll say that congress members do listen when their constituents complain, in part because so few actually take the time.

But I agree at times it feels like spitting into a tsunami.
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

Kris

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1280 on: January 23, 2017, 03:45:13 PM »
Well there is this:
WASHINGTON ― On Monday, surrounded by other white men, President Donald Trump signed an anti-abortion executive order that has far-reaching consequences for womenís reproductive health access worldwide.

Trump reinstated the Mexico City policy, also known as the global gag rule, which was first put in place by President Ronald Reagan in 1984. It prohibits giving U.S. funding to international nongovernmental organizations that offer or advise on a wide range of family planning and reproductive health options if they include abortion ― even if U.S. dollars are not specifically used for abortion-related services.

The United States spends about $600 million a year on international assistance for family planning and reproductive health programs, making it possible for 27 million women and couples to access contraceptive services and supplies.

None of that money is spent on performing abortions. The Helms amendment has prevented U.S. tax dollars from funding overseas abortions since 1973. Proponents of the global gag rule believe the policy is nevertheless still necessary, arguing that Helms isnít strong enough by itself.

The executive order is one of the first Trump has signed since taking office. Sitting in the Oval Office Monday, he also signed ones freezing federal hiring and withdrawing from the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade deal.

A pan of the people standing by his side showed that there were few, if any, women present.


MSNBC
Trumpís executive order has severe implications and could be deadly for women and girls in developing countries and conflict zones, who often resort to dangerous methods of ending their pregnancies when they lack access to safe abortion. The World Health Organization estimates that more than 21 million women a year have unsafe abortions in developing countries, accounting for about 13 percent of all maternal deaths.

The policy is rescinded and reinstated based on which party is in power. President Bill Clinton did away with it, President George W. Bush put it back and then President Barack Obama rescinded it again when he took office.

Anyone who is truly pro-life should be outraged by this and calling their congresspeople to demand action.
Can't get much more pro-life than I am, and I am delighted this policy is rescinded.

If you truly believe that abortion is wrong, helping women to get access to contraceptive services and supplies is a major part of that. This policy will result in more unwanted pregnancies. Which will result in more abortions. I am sure your pro-life stance is not limited to only American women, or American children. So how can you think this is a good thing?
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

sol

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1281 on: January 23, 2017, 03:55:05 PM »
If you truly believe that abortion is wrong, helping women to get access to contraceptive services and supplies is a major part of that. This policy will result in more unwanted pregnancies. Which will result in more abortions. I am sure your pro-life stance is not limited to only American women, or American children. So how can you think this is a good thing?

Lots of people who oppose abortion do so for the same reason that they oppose birth control:  they want more babies in the world.  They don't want women to terminate pregnancies and they don't want women to avoid getting pregnant.  They want all women pumping out babies at a steady clip.

Mostly this is a remnant of the early days of religious teaching, where rapid procreation among believers was the only way to ensure the survival of your religion.  You had to outbreed all of the other religions.

The fact that it keeps women servile and uneducated and homebound is just a lucky side effect, to this crowd.  You know, barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen and all that.

« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 04:36:27 PM by sol »

ncornilsen

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1282 on: January 23, 2017, 04:01:24 PM »
Well there is this:
WASHINGTON ― On Monday, surrounded by other white men, President Donald Trump signed an anti-abortion executive order that has far-reaching consequences for womenís reproductive health access worldwide.

Trump reinstated the Mexico City policy, also known as the global gag rule, which was first put in place by President Ronald Reagan in 1984. It prohibits giving U.S. funding to international nongovernmental organizations that offer or advise on a wide range of family planning and reproductive health options if they include abortion ― even if U.S. dollars are not specifically used for abortion-related services.

The United States spends about $600 million a year on international assistance for family planning and reproductive health programs, making it possible for 27 million women and couples to access contraceptive services and supplies.

None of that money is spent on performing abortions. The Helms amendment has prevented U.S. tax dollars from funding overseas abortions since 1973. Proponents of the global gag rule believe the policy is nevertheless still necessary, arguing that Helms isnít strong enough by itself.

The executive order is one of the first Trump has signed since taking office. Sitting in the Oval Office Monday, he also signed ones freezing federal hiring and withdrawing from the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade deal.

A pan of the people standing by his side showed that there were few, if any, women present.


MSNBC
Trumpís executive order has severe implications and could be deadly for women and girls in developing countries and conflict zones, who often resort to dangerous methods of ending their pregnancies when they lack access to safe abortion. The World Health Organization estimates that more than 21 million women a year have unsafe abortions in developing countries, accounting for about 13 percent of all maternal deaths.

The policy is rescinded and reinstated based on which party is in power. President Bill Clinton did away with it, President George W. Bush put it back and then President Barack Obama rescinded it again when he took office.

Anyone who is truly pro-life should be outraged by this and calling their congresspeople to demand action.
Can't get much more pro-life than I am, and I am delighted this policy is rescinded.

If you truly believe that abortion is wrong, helping women to get access to contraceptive services and supplies is a major part of that. This policy will result in more unwanted pregnancies. Which will result in more abortions. I am sure your pro-life stance is not limited to only American women, or American children. So how can you think this is a good thing?

The Helms amendment states simply "no foreign assistance funds may be used to pay for the performance of abortion as a method of family planning or to motivate or coerce any person to practice abortions."

I'm not sure how this  blocks access to contraceptives?

Midwest

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1283 on: January 23, 2017, 04:03:21 PM »
If you truly believe that abortion is wrong, helping women to get access to contraceptive services and supplies is a major part of that. This policy will result in more unwanted pregnancies. Which will result in more abortions. I am sure your pro-life stance is not limited to only American women, or American children. So how can you think this is a good thing?

Lots of people who oppose abortion do so for the same reason that they oppose birth control:  they want more babies in the world.  They don't want women to terminate pregnancies and they don't women to avoid getting pregnant.  They want all women pumping out babies at a steady clip.

Mostly this is a remnant of the early days of religious teaching, where rapid procreation among believers was the only way to ensure the survival of your religion.  You had to outbreed all of the other religions.

The fact that keeps women servile and uneducated and homebound is just a lucky side effect.  You know, barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen and all that.

While the catholic church opposes birth control as a policy, many Christians (and many catholics) are quite all right with family planning and birth control while being pro-life.

I would go as far as to speculate pro-life people opposing family planning and contraception are the minority. 

Kris

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1284 on: January 23, 2017, 04:09:52 PM »
If you truly believe that abortion is wrong, helping women to get access to contraceptive services and supplies is a major part of that. This policy will result in more unwanted pregnancies. Which will result in more abortions. I am sure your pro-life stance is not limited to only American women, or American children. So how can you think this is a good thing?

Lots of people who oppose abortion do so for the same reason that they oppose birth control:  they want more babies in the world.  They don't want women to terminate pregnancies and they don't women to avoid getting pregnant.  They want all women pumping out babies at a steady clip.

Mostly this is a remnant of the early days of religious teaching, where rapid procreation among believers was the only way to ensure the survival of your religion.  You had to outbreed all of the other religions.

The fact that it keeps women servile and uneducated and homebound is just a lucky side effect, to this crowd.  You know, barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen and all that.

Yeah, I understand that. But when I talk to pro-life people, their main argument is that abortion is MURDER. Well, okay, if you don't want MURDER, then you want fewer abortions. So... make decisions that will make that possible. Anything else seems at the very least hypocritical.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

sol

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1285 on: January 23, 2017, 04:10:42 PM »
I'm not sure how this  blocks access to contraceptives?

Not the Helms amendment, which has been in continuing effect, but the new Trump order reinstating the Mexico City policy.  It specifically withholds funding to NGOs that offer contraception in developing nations.  Why is this at all confusing?

I would go as far as to speculate pro-life people opposing family planning and contraception are the minority. 

Sure, but this was specifically in response to a poster who claimed to support the decision to defund contraception services because they were also pro-life.  I was just trying to explain how a person could hold those two seemingly contradictory views.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 04:14:35 PM by sol »

Midwest

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1286 on: January 23, 2017, 04:14:21 PM »


I would go as far as to speculate pro-life people opposing family planning and contraception are the minority. 

Sure, but this was specifically in response to a poster who claimed to support the decision to defund contraception services because they were also pro-life.  I was just trying to explain how a person could hold those two seemingly contradictory views.

Thanks for the clarification.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 04:16:58 PM by Midwest »

ncornilsen

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1287 on: January 23, 2017, 04:26:11 PM »
I'm not sure how this  blocks access to contraceptives?

Not the Helms amendment, which has been in continuing effect, but the new Trump order reinstating the Mexico City policy.  It specifically withholds funding to NGOs that offer contraception in developing nations.  Why is this at all confusing?


I'm clear now. I had glossed over the fact that the Mexico city policy was a separate thing entirely. 

edit: Now that I'm searching for the right thing...

 the jury is out on whether the Mexico city rule has any effect at all, according to these guys:
http://www.aei.org/publication/mexico-city-policy/print/  This one says the Mexico city has no effect either way.

WHO Says enacting the Mexico city rule actually causes more abortions. There are some questions you could raise as to methodology the WHO used, relying on people recalling things over spans of times etc, but... the data seems to respond significantly to the change in policy. They don't speculate too much on why this paradox exists, but it's probably because of the reduction in access to other contraceptives caused by stopping funding due to the MCr.
http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/89/12/11-091660/en/

WHO conclusion: if you want to prevent abortions, well, uh, fund abortions.

So, I guess my policy leans toward we should infact KEEP the helms rule, but eliminate the mexico city rule. this scheme seems to maintain good outcomes without directly funding abortions.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 04:48:56 PM by ncornilsen »

Burghardt

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1288 on: January 23, 2017, 05:46:20 PM »
I suppose the most significant impact is everybody continuously shooting themselves in the foot until they run out of space and have to pick a new body part.

Everybody's being lead around on a leash arguing about crowd sizes and abortions in other countries while the big political moves are barely reported on.

scottish

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1289 on: January 23, 2017, 06:25:19 PM »
Trump is being tactical and distracting everyone from his real activities?

sol

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1290 on: January 23, 2017, 06:31:00 PM »
WHO conclusion: if you want to prevent abortions, well, uh, fund abortions.

More specifically, I think the conclusion is "if you want to prevent abortions, fund effective contraceptives to prevent unwanted pregnancies."

Unfortunately, Trump is trying to appeal to the pro-life people by reinstating the Mexico City policy, which prevents contraception and thus increases abortion.  I'm not sure if he's just confused about the impacts, or doesn't care, or what.  I doubt it's because he's actually trying to cause more abortions, because NOBODY wants that.  Even the most strongly pro-choice among us would like to see abortions be less common.

waltworks

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1291 on: January 23, 2017, 07:03:53 PM »
If you are pro-life:
-You're against abortion, which means promoting contraception, because you're not going to prevent sex. See: prohibition.
-You're against the death penalty.
-You're probably vegetarian and maybe vegan. Good for animals and humans.
-You promote universal free health care, especially for children.
-You are for aggressive actions to prevent/mitigate global warming. Hard to imagine a greater threat to life, really.

If you don't really mean "pro life", don't fake it. Abortion is horrible, but if that's all you're against, you're not "pro life", you're "against abortion". Not the same thing.

FWIW, I can check all those boxes and consider myself pro-life.

-W

dividendman

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1292 on: January 23, 2017, 07:18:31 PM »
If you are pro-life:
-You're against abortion, which means promoting contraception, because you're not going to prevent sex. See: prohibition.
-You're against the death penalty.
-You're probably vegetarian and maybe vegan. Good for animals and humans.
-You promote universal free health care, especially for children.
-You are for aggressive actions to prevent/mitigate global warming. Hard to imagine a greater threat to life, really.

If you don't really mean "pro life", don't fake it. Abortion is horrible, but if that's all you're against, you're not "pro life", you're "against abortion". Not the same thing.

FWIW, I can check all those boxes and consider myself pro-life.

-W

You're probably against wars and predator drones, too.

Lagom

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1293 on: January 23, 2017, 07:20:16 PM »
If you are pro-life:
-You're against abortion, which means promoting contraception, because you're not going to prevent sex. See: prohibition.
-You're against the death penalty.
-You're probably vegetarian and maybe vegan. Good for animals and humans.
-You promote universal free health care, especially for children.
-You are for aggressive actions to prevent/mitigate global warming. Hard to imagine a greater threat to life, really.

If you don't really mean "pro life", don't fake it. Abortion is horrible, but if that's all you're against, you're not "pro life", you're "against abortion". Not the same thing.

FWIW, I can check all those boxes and consider myself pro-life.

-W

You're probably against wars and predator drones, too.

No doubt. And the war on drugs. And for profit prisons. And border protections that drive illegal immigrants into increasingly dangerous situations and terrain. Damn, I guess I'm pro-life too!

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1294 on: January 23, 2017, 07:40:19 PM »
I suppose the most significant impact is everybody continuously shooting themselves in the foot until they run out of space and have to pick a new body part.

Everybody's being lead around on a leash arguing about crowd sizes and abortions in other countries while the big political moves are barely reported on.

He is a master of the dead cat technique.
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waltworks

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1295 on: January 23, 2017, 08:31:48 PM »
You're probably against wars and predator drones, too.

Darn it, you got me!

It's almost like I'm a Christian...

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Poundwise

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1296 on: January 23, 2017, 08:43:08 PM »
Did anybody mention this?

Sayonara net neutrality.

What a busy little bee he is!

nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1297 on: January 24, 2017, 06:01:06 AM »
Trump is being tactical and distracting everyone from his real activities?

I do wonder if this isn't an intentional strategy.  Quick! We need something to distract the public from a policy they will protest against, say something ridiculous!  Um... 5 million illegals voted and handed Clinton the popular vote! I'm the biggest person for the enviornment and have won many awards! No one is a bigger protector of women than I am!
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acroy

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1298 on: January 24, 2017, 07:11:25 AM »

Anyone who is truly pro-life should be outraged by this and calling their congresspeople to demand action.
Can't get much more pro-life than I am, and I am delighted this policy is rescinded.

If you truly believe that abortion is wrong, helping women to get access to contraceptive services and supplies is a major part of that. This policy will result in more unwanted pregnancies. Which will result in more abortions. I am sure your pro-life stance is not limited to only American women, or American children. So how can you think this is a good thing?
[/quote]
I 100% understand your position and it sounds convincing, but contains the logical fallacy of 'Post Hoc / Faulty Causality'
http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/eng207-td/Logic%20and%20Analysis/most_common_logical_fallacies.htm
I adhere to the archaic notion that the only moral/ethical form of birth control is abstinence.
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NoStacheOhio

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1299 on: January 24, 2017, 07:19:13 AM »
I adhere to the archaic notion that the only moral/ethical form of birth control is abstinence.

That's great for you. When your archaic notions start interfering with my (marital) sex life (say, banning IUDs), you can go fuck yourself right off a cliff.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/digging-out-of-a-hole/