Author Topic: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?  (Read 366861 times)

Kris

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1200 on: January 22, 2017, 10:20:08 AM »
I have to (throwing up a little in my mouth) agree with Ms. Conway here. Nobody cares. I guess I would be vaguely interested, but what in his tax returns would possible convince anyone of anything at this point? He's already openly lied about all sorts of things, bragged about grabbing genitals, been an adulterer (probably many times), and almost managed to lose his shirt in business despite being born a multimillionaire in 1950's dollars.

None of that is disqualifying to be president, apparently, so why worry about tax returns? If you really dislike him, go recruit that great charismatic member of the school board to run for city council, or that city councilor you like to run for state senate, etc. Political change happens from the local level up.

-W

I agree with you. The cowards in the Republican congress only care that they're in power now, so they wouldn't do anything, no matter how egregious what they found in his returns was. And Trump's supporters would still support him if he shot someone in the street, as he himself has said. The press is basically AWOL. So... i think it's wasted energy. Concentrate on what he does as president. There should be more than enough stuff that is illegal or even skirting (or crossing) the line to treason, based on what he's already shown us by his actions.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

oldtoyota

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1201 on: January 22, 2017, 10:20:46 AM »
I'm attending a conference call organized by MoveOn and other Dem groups tonight at 8 pm Eastern.

Talking and posting is cathartic but it's not getting work done, so I challenge myself to take even more action.


packlawyer04

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1202 on: January 22, 2017, 10:24:37 AM »
We are now in a populist era. The strongest and most powerful force in American politics is a rejection of the status quo, a repudiation of politics as usual, and a deep and profound distrust of elites, including the current power structure of America.

If you really believe the things you're typing (that we live in a populist era), then you should believe that the strongest and most powerful force in American politics is an acceptance of the status quo.  Hillary Clinton got more votes than Trump, which is a repudiation and indication of a deep/profound distrust of crazy politics by elites like Trump.  That she didn't win is simply an example of how the system currently is set up to ignore popular will.

Maybe you should go back and read my post.  99% of my post was quoted from the article I linked which came from a hard core liberal professor (Rober Reich) from University of Cal which is on the front page of real clear politics. Reich worked for Clinton. They don't get more liberal than him. I simply pressed ctr-c, ctl-v.

He also discusses how Bernie Sanders run further cements his belief of a rejection of the status quo.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2017, 10:27:00 AM by packlawyer04 »

former player

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1203 on: January 22, 2017, 10:31:31 AM »
"No he is not"?  That's all you've got?

Let's look at the evidence.  He is on film, in his first speech after his inauguration, saying -

"I was explaining about the numbers.  We did a thing yesterday, the speech - did everybody like the speech? You had to like it, so I've been given good reviews - but, but we had a massive field of people, you saw them.  Packed.  I get up this morning, I turn on one of the networks, and they show an empty field.  I said "wait a minute".  I made a speech.  I looked out. The field was - it looked like a million, a million and a half people.  They showed a field where there were practically nobody standing there.  And they said "Donald Trump did not draw well".  I said "It was almost raining.  The rain should have scared them away but God looked down and he said "we're not going to let it rain on your speech."" Fact is.  When I first started, "oh no", the first line, I got hit by a couple of drops, and I said "oh, this is too bad but we'll go right through it".  But the truth is that it stopped immediately, it was amazing, and then it became really sunny and then I walked off and it poured right after I left.  It poured but, you know, we have something that's amazing because we had, it looked, honestly, like a million and a half people, whatever it was, it was, but it went all the way back to the Washington Monument.  And I turn on the thing and by mistake I get this network and it showed an empty field.  And it said we drew 250,000 people.  Now that's not bad.  But it's a lie.  We had 250,000 people literally around you know in the little bowl that we constructed, that was 250,000 people.  The rest of the you know 20 block area all the way back to the Washington Monument was packed.  So we caught them, and we caught them in a beauty, and I think they're going to pay a big price."

Those are the words of a man who is so narciscistic that the preservation of his own ego is more important than the truth, and more important than his role as President of the United States.

People that are crazy don't accomplish what he has done. I guess I have different definitions of crazy.  Most crazy people can't accomplish the daily tasks of basic living like cleaning themselves, washing clothes or cooking a meal.  What is your definition of crazy.

"According to the DSM-5, individuals with NPD have most or all of the following symptoms, typically without commensurate qualities or accomplishments:[8][11]
1.Grandiosity with expectations of superior treatment from others
2.Fixated on fantasies of power, success, intelligence, attractiveness, etc.
3.Self-perception of being unique, superior and associated with high-status people and institutions
4.Needing constant admiration from others
5.Sense of entitlement to special treatment and to obedience from others
6.Exploitative of others to achieve personal gain
7.Unwilling to empathize with others' feelings, wishes, or needs
8.Intensely envious of others and the belief that others are equally envious of them
9.Pompous and arrogant demeanor"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder

Let's take another bit of evidence from Trump's CIA speech -

"Time magazine - and I have been on their cover like 14 or 15 times, I think we have the all time record in the history of Time magazine.  Like if Tom Brady's on the cover it's one time because you won the Superbowl or something, right?  I've been on for 15 times this year.  I don't think that's a record, Mike, that can ever be broken, do you agree with that?  What do you think?"

That is Trump, in his first full day as President of the United States, telling the CIA how many times he has been on the cover of Time magazine.  Twice.  Donald, it's the CIA: if they cared they could find out.  And you are the President of the United States, why are you still concerned about how many times you've been on the front cover of Time magazine?  And why do you think that the number of times you've been on the front cover of Time magazine is something it's important for you to tell the CIA?

Official diagnosis: Narcissistic Personality Disorder so extreme that it is more important to him than the role of President of the United States.  Unofficial diagnosis: Bat. Shit. Crazy.



Be frugal and industrious, and you will be free (Ben Franklin)

accolay

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1204 on: January 22, 2017, 10:36:39 AM »
I'm attending a conference call organized by MoveOn and other Dem groups tonight at 8 pm Eastern.

Talking and posting is cathartic but it's not getting work done, so I challenge myself to take even more action.

That's the right attitude. Hopefully number the agenda includes how to
1. float a good likeable candidate and
2. how to get people to vote.

GuitarStv

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1205 on: January 22, 2017, 10:40:28 AM »
We are now in a populist era. The strongest and most powerful force in American politics is a rejection of the status quo, a repudiation of politics as usual, and a deep and profound distrust of elites, including the current power structure of America.

If you really believe the things you're typing (that we live in a populist era), then you should believe that the strongest and most powerful force in American politics is an acceptance of the status quo.  Hillary Clinton got more votes than Trump, which is a repudiation and indication of a deep/profound distrust of crazy politics by elites like Trump.  That she didn't win is simply an example of how the system currently is set up to ignore popular will.

Maybe you should go back and read my post.  99% of my post was quoted from the article I linked which came from a hard core liberal professor (Rober Reich) from University of Cal which is on the front page of real clear politics. Reich worked for Clinton. They don't get more liberal than him. I simply pressed ctr-c, ctl-v.

He also discusses how Bernie Sanders run further cements his belief of a rejection of the status quo.

My mistake.  I thought that you believed the things you were re-posting.  Could you point out which parts of your posts you actually agree with and which parts you already know are patently false?

Lagom

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1206 on: January 22, 2017, 10:42:43 AM »
I'm attending a conference call organized by MoveOn and other Dem groups tonight at 8 pm Eastern.

Talking and posting is cathartic but it's not getting work done, so I challenge myself to take even more action.

https://www.womensmarch.com/100/

For those looking for inspiration, here's one place to start.

Lagom

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1207 on: January 22, 2017, 10:43:43 AM »

nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1208 on: January 22, 2017, 10:51:09 AM »
I have to (throwing up a little in my mouth) agree with Ms. Conway here. Nobody cares. I guess I would be vaguely interested, but what in his tax returns would possible convince anyone of anything at this point? He's already openly lied about all sorts of things, bragged about grabbing genitals, been an adulterer (probably many times), and almost managed to lose his shirt in business despite being born a multimillionaire in 1950's dollars.

None of that is disqualifying to be president, apparently, so why worry about tax returns? If you really dislike him, go recruit that great charismatic member of the school board to run for city council, or that city councilor you like to run for state senate, etc. Political change happens from the local level up.

-W

If you don't care that's your choice.  Personally I *do* still care, because I believe that the American public should be aware of all potential financial conflicts of interest among our leaders. Transparency is the only way to accomplish this, and is the very reason why most positions of power (CEOs, elected officials, federal appointees) are required to make their records available, and its why every president since Nixon has done so voluntarily.
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GuitarStv

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1209 on: January 22, 2017, 10:53:32 AM »
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-38711701

Another realistic impact.

To be fair this has nothing to do with Trump, Israel was always going to approve more settlement.  My assumption is that they will eventually annex the entirety of Palestine . . . it's really the only way that the area will ever see peace.  Think about it.  You have land that Israel has steadily invaded and captured through the history.  Palestine can never be a real country because Israel controls all movement of goods and people and enforces their own policing of the area.  Having separate countries just means continued hardship and fighting until the Palestinian people are completely driven from their land or absorbed into Israel.

Lagom

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nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1211 on: January 22, 2017, 10:57:48 AM »
We are now in a populist era. The strongest and most powerful force in American politics is a rejection of the status quo, a repudiation of politics as usual, and a deep and profound distrust of elites, including the current power structure of America.

If you really believe the things you're typing (that we live in a populist era), then you should believe that the strongest and most powerful force in American politics is an acceptance of the status quo.  Hillary Clinton got more votes than Trump, which is a repudiation and indication of a deep/profound distrust of crazy politics by elites like Trump.  That she didn't win is simply an example of how the system currently is set up to ignore popular will.

Maybe you should go back and read my post.  99% of my post was quoted from the article I linked which came from a hard core liberal professor (Rober Reich) from University of Cal which is on the front page of real clear politics. Reich worked for Clinton. They don't get more liberal than him.

... Robert Reich... They dont' get more liberal than him. 
That's funny (and so wrong). He's liberal but not even close to the extreme end of the spectrum.  ha!
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Lagom

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1212 on: January 22, 2017, 11:02:31 AM »
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-38711701

Another realistic impact.

To be fair this has nothing to do with Trump, Israel was always going to approve more settlement.  My assumption is that they will eventually annex the entirety of Palestine . . . it's really the only way that the area will ever see peace.  Think about it.  You have land that Israel has steadily invaded and captured through the history.  Palestine can never be a real country because Israel controls all movement of goods and people and enforces their own policing of the area.  Having separate countries just means continued hardship and fighting until the Palestinian people are completely driven from their land or absorbed into Israel.

A pessimistic, but possibly accurate assessment. If we want to be optimistic and assume it is (was?) possible for a two state solution to work, Trump being elected will definitely impact how brazenly Israel continues to flout international law and continue down the path you predict.

bacchi

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1213 on: January 22, 2017, 12:52:50 PM »
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-38711701

Another realistic impact.

To be fair this has nothing to do with Trump, Israel was always going to approve more settlement.  My assumption is that they will eventually annex the entirety of Palestine . . . it's really the only way that the area will ever see peace.  Think about it.  You have land that Israel has steadily invaded and captured through the history.  Palestine can never be a real country because Israel controls all movement of goods and people and enforces their own policing of the area.  Having separate countries just means continued hardship and fighting until the Palestinian people are completely driven from their land or absorbed into Israel.

A pessimistic, but possibly accurate assessment. If we want to be optimistic and assume it is (was?) possible for a two state solution to work, Trump being elected will definitely impact how brazenly Israel continues to flout international law and continue down the path you predict.

Eh, Israel can't annex Palestine. The Palestinians have more kids than Israelis. Unless the Palestinians are denied the right to vote (like apartheid and definitely possible with the Likud party in charge), Israel would be facing a voting demographic change they may not like.

nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1214 on: January 22, 2017, 01:29:33 PM »
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-38711701

Another realistic impact.

To be fair this has nothing to do with Trump, Israel was always going to approve more settlement.  My assumption is that they will eventually annex the entirety of Palestine . . . it's really the only way that the area will ever see peace.  Think about it.  You have land that Israel has steadily invaded and captured through the history.  Palestine can never be a real country because Israel controls all movement of goods and people and enforces their own policing of the area.  Having separate countries just means continued hardship and fighting until the Palestinian people are completely driven from their land or absorbed into Israel.

A pessimistic, but possibly accurate assessment. If we want to be optimistic and assume it is (was?) possible for a two state solution to work, Trump being elected will definitely impact how brazenly Israel continues to flout international law and continue down the path you predict.

True or not, the sentiment expressed boiled down to: the only way there can be peace* is for one side to completely win.
That just depresses me.

*footnote: historically surpressed populations have often come back; peace in this sense may not last.
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scottish

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1215 on: January 22, 2017, 04:17:12 PM »
Trump's policy objectives are up   https://www.whitehouse.gov/law-enforcement-community

Energy
Foreign policy
Jobs and growth
Military
Law enforcement
Trade

Looks like he's going to create 25M jobs through a bold plan to reduce taxes, while at the same time asking congress for more money to rebuild the military, and removing environmental regulations that interfere with the business of business.   
Actually, throughout my life, my two greatest assets have been mental stability and being, like, really smart.

scottish

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1216 on: January 22, 2017, 04:33:52 PM »
Quote
You have land that Israel has steadily invaded and captured through the history.

You know, this has always bothered me a bit.   Israel captured those territories in the 6 days war which was started by Egypt.

And pragmatically, Israeli society has a lot more in common with US or Canadian society than the various Arab states do.   You know, things like women's rights, democratic leadership, being able to industrialize and innovate and produce things.    There's a pretty good argument that the UN resolutions around this topic aren't for the best.


Actually, throughout my life, my two greatest assets have been mental stability and being, like, really smart.

Fireball

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1217 on: January 22, 2017, 07:19:58 PM »
Trump's policy objectives are up   https://www.whitehouse.gov/law-enforcement-community

"We must take advantage of the estimated $50 trillion in untapped shale, oil, and natural gas reserves, especially those on federal lands that the American people own. "

Makes me want to puke. Seriously.

nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1218 on: January 22, 2017, 08:27:50 PM »
Trump's policy objectives are up   https://www.whitehouse.gov/law-enforcement-community

"We must take advantage of the estimated $50 trillion in untapped shale, oil, and natural gas reserves, especially those on federal lands that the American people own. "

Makes me want to puke. Seriously.
Leveraging our future for the present?
More to the point, all this talk of increasing drilling and fracking and mining will do little while the cost of fossil fuels is as low as it is. While supply has dipped and demand has increased, we still have an over-supply of oil already.  Basic economics; for each additional barrel of oil we get less for it; trying to "unlock" large chunks of fossil fuels will face the laws of diminishing returns.
Then of course there's the OPEC bloc (plus Russia) - if the US market share starts increasing they're likely to flood the market with cheap oil again to preserve market share.  US rigs are all privately owned, so they'll respond to market forces.
They did it two years ago.

The current WH energy plan sounds like it was conjured by a climate-denying elementary school kid.
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FIRE me

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1219 on: January 22, 2017, 08:28:52 PM »
Trump's policy objectives are up   https://www.whitehouse.gov/law-enforcement-community 

I notice that under the list of “Top Issues”, health care is conspicuous in its absence.
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waltworks

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1220 on: January 22, 2017, 08:31:48 PM »
All I can say is that if he wants to create 25 million new jobs, he's going to have to convince more people to immigrate... the whole US labor force is only 160 million people. You'd have unemployment at zero and 18 million jobs left over...at the same time that a ton of boomers are retiring out of the workforce.

Indeed interesting that health care is nowhere on the site.

-W





nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1221 on: January 22, 2017, 08:36:40 PM »
All I can say is that if he wants to create 25 million new jobs, he's going to have to convince more people to immigrate... the whole US labor force is only 160 million people. You'd have unemployment at zero and 18 million jobs left over...at the same time that a ton of boomers are retiring out of the workforce.

It would basically push the labor participation rate up to levels not seen since shortly after WWII.  There would ahve to be a sea-change of retirees and stay-at-home-spouses all rushing into the work force.  Doesn't sound probable, or even desireable to me.
That, or a crapload of immigrants, which he seems equally opposed to with his new mantra of "America First".
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accolay

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1222 on: January 23, 2017, 01:38:30 AM »
Thought the White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer's lies were pretty good today. So totally brazen.

Quote
This was the largest audience to ever witness an inauguration — period — both in person and around the globe,”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/the-traditional-way-of-reporting-on-a-president-is-dead-and-trumps-press-secretary-killed-it/2017/01/22/75403a00-e0bf-11e6-a453-19ec4b3d09ba_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_sullivan-514pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.f4071ee21d07


Wow.

And then Kellyann Conway's assertion that their team has "alternative facts."

I'm going to have to stop reading the news to stop being drenched with the daily deluge of stupid.

purple monkey

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1223 on: January 23, 2017, 05:16:22 AM »
.[/quote]

"According to the DSM-5, individuals with NPD have most or all of the following symptoms, typically without commensurate qualities or accomplishments:[8][11]
1.Grandiosity with expectations of superior treatment from others
2.Fixated on fantasies of power, success, intelligence, attractiveness, etc.
3.Self-perception of being unique, superior and associated with high-status people and institutions
4.Needing constant admiration from others
5.Sense of entitlement to special treatment and to obedience from others
6.Exploitative of others to achieve personal gain
7.Unwilling to empathize with others' feelings, wishes, or needs
8.Intensely envious of others and the belief that others are equally envious of them
9.Pompous and arrogant demeanor"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder

Let's take another bit of evidence from Trump's CIA speech -

"Time magazine - and I have been on their cover like 14 or 15 times, I think we have the all time record in the history of Time magazine.  Like if Tom Brady's on the cover it's one time because you won the Superbowl or something, right?  I've been on for 15 times this year.  I don't think that's a record, Mike, that can ever be broken, do you agree with that?  What do you think?"

That is Trump, in his first full day as President of the United States, telling the CIA how many times he has been on the cover of Time magazine.  Twice.  Donald, it's the CIA: if they cared they could find out.  And you are the President of the United States, why are you still concerned about how many times you've been on the front cover of Time magazine?  And why do you think that the number of times you've been on the front cover of Time magazine is something it's important for you to tell the CIA?

Official diagnosis: Narcissistic Personality Disorder so extreme that it is more important to him than the role of President of the United States.  Unofficial diagnosis: Bat. Shit. Crazy.


+1

deadlymonkey

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1224 on: January 23, 2017, 06:14:15 AM »
Thought the White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer's lies were pretty good today. So totally brazen.

Quote
This was the largest audience to ever witness an inauguration — period — both in person and around the globe,”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/the-traditional-way-of-reporting-on-a-president-is-dead-and-trumps-press-secretary-killed-it/2017/01/22/75403a00-e0bf-11e6-a453-19ec4b3d09ba_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_sullivan-514pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.f4071ee21d07


Wow.

And then Kellyann Conway's assertion that their team has "alternative facts."

I'm going to have to stop reading the news to stop being drenched with the daily deluge of stupid.

At least CNN had that balls to straight up call them lies.  Foxnews didn't go that far but admitted the crowd sizes were smaller.

nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1225 on: January 23, 2017, 06:22:57 AM »
Thought the White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer's lies were pretty good today. So totally brazen.

Quote
This was the largest audience to ever witness an inauguration — period — both in person and around the globe,”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/the-traditional-way-of-reporting-on-a-president-is-dead-and-trumps-press-secretary-killed-it/2017/01/22/75403a00-e0bf-11e6-a453-19ec4b3d09ba_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_sullivan-514pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.f4071ee21d07

Wow.

And then Kellyann Conway's assertion that their team has "alternative facts."

I'm going to have to stop reading the news to stop being drenched with the daily deluge of stupid.

Once again I'm left wondering: Does DJT really believe his own lies, or is he just convinced that he can sell them to enough people?
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former player

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1226 on: January 23, 2017, 06:30:18 AM »
Once again I'm left wondering: Does DJT really believe his own lies, or is he just convinced that he can sell them to enough people?
He believes them because he has to believe them, otherwise his fragile ego collapses in a heap (see my Narcissistic Personality Disorder post above).

The extraordinary thing is that his NPD is so severe that it is more important to him than the role of President of the United States.  I mean, the NPD was pretty obvious during the campaign but there was always the hope that becoming President would outweigh it: I think Trump has already conclusively proved that it hasn't.

The really scary thing is of course that Trump has surrounded himself in office with people who have also either bought into Trump's pathological errors or who are going along with them for their own reasons.  I would love a reporter to stand up in the next Presidential news briefing that tries to peddle a lie and ask "Do you honestly believe the lie you have just told or are you merely pandering to the President's delusion?
« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 06:47:34 AM by former player »
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nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1227 on: January 23, 2017, 06:49:11 AM »
Once again I'm left wondering: Does DJT really believe his own lies, or is he just convinced that he can sell them to enough people?
He believes them because he has to believe them, otherwise his fragile ego collapses in a heap (see my Narcissistic Personality Disorder post above).

The extraordinary thing is that his NPD is so severe that it is more important to him than the role of President of the United States.  I mean, the NPD was pretty obvious during the campaign but there was always the hope that becoming President would outweigh it: I think Trump has already conclusively proved that it hasn't.

The really scary thing is of course that Trump has surrounded himself in office with people who have also either bought into Trump's pathological errors or who are going along with them for their own reasons.
I won't diagnose anyone's personality disorder, but I will agree with you that the number of people who are complicit with these most blatant lies is extremely troubling.
Until there's some sort of consequence for repeating them I don't think this will stop.
I wonder if this period in our history will be studied as another example of group-hysteria.
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GuitarStv

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1228 on: January 23, 2017, 07:04:51 AM »
Eh, Israel can't annex Palestine. The Palestinians have more kids than Israelis. Unless the Palestinians are denied the right to vote (like apartheid and definitely possible with the Likud party in charge), Israel would be facing a voting demographic change they may not like.

Palestine is currently under control by Israel (police control, military control, Israeli enforced curfew, Israeli control of movement within Palestine, Israeli control of goods in/out of the country, etc.) and unable to vote in Israeli elections.  They're a separate country in name only.  I'd be shocked for this to change at all once Israel completes their ongoing annexation of Palestine.



Quote
You have land that Israel has steadily invaded and captured through the history.

You know, this has always bothered me a bit.   Israel captured those territories in the 6 days war which was started by Egypt.

Israel has regularly expanded their territory since coming to the area.  The last large territory grab was taken when Israel attacked Egypt and started the six day war.  Since then (over the past forty years) Israeli settlers have regularly moved into Palestinian lands, forcibly evicted Palestinians, and then enlisted the aid of the Israeli armed forces to prevent the Palestinians from retaking it.  There is no indication that this behaviour will ever stop, and the Palestinians have no recourse to prevent it.



And pragmatically, Israeli society has a lot more in common with US or Canadian society than the various Arab states do.   You know, things like women's rights, democratic leadership, being able to industrialize and innovate and produce things.    There's a pretty good argument that the UN resolutions around this topic aren't for the best.

Generally, yeah.  Israel treats Israeli women much better than Palestine treats Palestinian women.  I mean technically there's suffrage in Palestine . . . but there are plenty of problems with enforcing Islamic codes of dress, honor killings, etc.  In that way, I guess that it's more like Canada or the US.

For your other points though . . . Palestine has held regular elections and had democratic leadership for 20 years.  They've actually got pretty good education rates for a middle eastern country.  It has been proven impossible for the Palestinians to industrialize and innovate under Israeli occupation.  How is industrialization supposed to happen when most goods going either way are turned back at the border by Israelis?

Gin1984

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1229 on: January 23, 2017, 07:46:02 AM »
Once again I'm left wondering: Does DJT really believe his own lies, or is he just convinced that he can sell them to enough people?
He believes them because he has to believe them, otherwise his fragile ego collapses in a heap (see my Narcissistic Personality Disorder post above).

The extraordinary thing is that his NPD is so severe that it is more important to him than the role of President of the United States.  I mean, the NPD was pretty obvious during the campaign but there was always the hope that becoming President would outweigh it: I think Trump has already conclusively proved that it hasn't.

The really scary thing is of course that Trump has surrounded himself in office with people who have also either bought into Trump's pathological errors or who are going along with them for their own reasons.
I won't diagnose anyone's personality disorder, but I will agree with you that the number of people who are complicit with these most blatant lies is extremely troubling.
Until there's some sort of consequence for repeating them I don't think this will stop.
I wonder if this period in our history will be studied as another example of group-hysteria.
Which is why people need to call people who do this, out.  Flat out say it is a lie.  Or if that is too harsh, factually inaccurate. Don't let people "agree to disagree", you can do that with opinions, not facts.

nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1230 on: January 23, 2017, 07:57:07 AM »
Once again I'm left wondering: Does DJT really believe his own lies, or is he just convinced that he can sell them to enough people?
He believes them because he has to believe them, otherwise his fragile ego collapses in a heap (see my Narcissistic Personality Disorder post above).

The extraordinary thing is that his NPD is so severe that it is more important to him than the role of President of the United States.  I mean, the NPD was pretty obvious during the campaign but there was always the hope that becoming President would outweigh it: I think Trump has already conclusively proved that it hasn't.

The really scary thing is of course that Trump has surrounded himself in office with people who have also either bought into Trump's pathological errors or who are going along with them for their own reasons.
I won't diagnose anyone's personality disorder, but I will agree with you that the number of people who are complicit with these most blatant lies is extremely troubling.
Until there's some sort of consequence for repeating them I don't think this will stop.
I wonder if this period in our history will be studied as another example of group-hysteria.
Which is why people need to call people who do this, out.  Flat out say it is a lie.  Or if that is too harsh, factually inaccurate. Don't let people "agree to disagree", you can do that with opinions, not facts.
While I absolutely agree with you in principle, it hasn't been very effective so far. DJT lashes out at the media for being "dishonest", countless websites are dedicated to fact-checking and there are angry howls every time a new falsehood surfaces, regardless of whether the falsehood has important and far-reaching implications ("Obama's birth certificate is fake!") or not ("biggest crowd ever!").
Despite this, the lies are becoming more brazen and ridiculous, and supporters seem no less inclined to believe them. In some ways pointing out obvious lies causes the opposite of the anticipated effect in a true example of political irony.
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Daleth

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1231 on: January 23, 2017, 08:00:10 AM »
Quote
You have land that Israel has steadily invaded and captured through the history.

You know, this has always bothered me a bit.   Israel captured those territories in the 6 days war which was started by Egypt.

And pragmatically, Israeli society has a lot more in common with US or Canadian society than the various Arab states do.   You know, things like women's rights, democratic leadership, being able to industrialize and innovate and produce things.    There's a pretty good argument that the UN resolutions around this topic aren't for the best.

Totally agree.

MasterStache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1232 on: January 23, 2017, 08:10:13 AM »
Trump's policy objectives are up   https://www.whitehouse.gov/law-enforcement-community

"We must take advantage of the estimated $50 trillion in untapped shale, oil, and natural gas reserves, especially those on federal lands that the American people own. "

Makes me want to puke. Seriously.
Leveraging our future for the present?
More to the point, all this talk of increasing drilling and fracking and mining will do little while the cost of fossil fuels is as low as it is. While supply has dipped and demand has increased, we still have an over-supply of oil already.  Basic economics; for each additional barrel of oil we get less for it; trying to "unlock" large chunks of fossil fuels will face the laws of diminishing returns.
Then of course there's the OPEC bloc (plus Russia) - if the US market share starts increasing they're likely to flood the market with cheap oil again to preserve market share.  US rigs are all privately owned, so they'll respond to market forces.
They did it two years ago.

The current WH energy plan sounds like it was conjured by a climate-denying elementary school kid.

Yep, not much money to be made in drilling these days.

golden1

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1233 on: January 23, 2017, 08:32:03 AM »
Quote
I won't diagnose anyone's personality disorder, but I will agree with you that the number of people who are complicit with these most blatant lies is extremely troubling.
Until there's some sort of consequence for repeating them I don't think this will stop.
I wonder if this period in our history will be studied as another example of group-hysteria.

One of the things I have noticed since the election that troubles me is the underlying anger of the hard-core trumpers.  Their guy won, but they aren't celebrating, they are still furious.  Trump has an extremely loyal group of people that will justify and fall in line with every lie he says.  It is absolutely crazy, and tremendously disturbing.  It reminds me of Jonestown.  I think if he asked, they would kill and die for him.  They are already at the point where they are perfectly okay with saying 2+2 =5.  They are all in, forever. 

GuitarStv

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1234 on: January 23, 2017, 08:37:23 AM »
Quote
I won't diagnose anyone's personality disorder, but I will agree with you that the number of people who are complicit with these most blatant lies is extremely troubling.
Until there's some sort of consequence for repeating them I don't think this will stop.
I wonder if this period in our history will be studied as another example of group-hysteria.

One of the things I have noticed since the election that troubles me is the underlying anger of the hard-core trumpers.  Their guy won, but they aren't celebrating, they are still furious.  Trump has an extremely loyal group of people that will justify and fall in line with every lie he says.  It is absolutely crazy, and tremendously disturbing.  It reminds me of Jonestown.  I think if he asked, they would kill and die for him.  They are already at the point where they are perfectly okay with saying 2+2 =5.  They are all in, forever.

Of course they're alright with 2+2 equalling 5.  It's simply an alternate fact.

nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1235 on: January 23, 2017, 08:44:04 AM »
Quote
I won't diagnose anyone's personality disorder, but I will agree with you that the number of people who are complicit with these most blatant lies is extremely troubling.
Until there's some sort of consequence for repeating them I don't think this will stop.
I wonder if this period in our history will be studied as another example of group-hysteria.

One of the things I have noticed since the election that troubles me is the underlying anger of the hard-core trumpers.  Their guy won, but they aren't celebrating, they are still furious.  Trump has an extremely loyal group of people that will justify and fall in line with every lie he says.  It is absolutely crazy, and tremendously disturbing. It reminds me of Jonestown.  I think if he asked, they would kill and die for him.  They are already at the point where they are perfectly okay with saying 2+2 =5.  They are all in, forever.

What's Jonestown?
(I also share your view that the most hard-core supporters, of which I am related to two, seem to be angry and combative)
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deadlymonkey

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1236 on: January 23, 2017, 08:53:29 AM »
Quote
I won't diagnose anyone's personality disorder, but I will agree with you that the number of people who are complicit with these most blatant lies is extremely troubling.
Until there's some sort of consequence for repeating them I don't think this will stop.
I wonder if this period in our history will be studied as another example of group-hysteria.

One of the things I have noticed since the election that troubles me is the underlying anger of the hard-core trumpers.  Their guy won, but they aren't celebrating, they are still furious.  Trump has an extremely loyal group of people that will justify and fall in line with every lie he says.  It is absolutely crazy, and tremendously disturbing. It reminds me of Jonestown.  I think if he asked, they would kill and die for him.  They are already at the point where they are perfectly okay with saying 2+2 =5.  They are all in, forever.

What's Jonestown?
(I also share your view that the most hard-core supporters, of which I am related to two, seem to be angry and combative)

Jonestown was a cult that relocated to South America from the states and resulted in the largest mass suicide recorded, more than 900 people willing walked up and knowingly drank poisoned Kool-Aid (creating the phrase, he drank the Kool-Aid...)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown

nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1237 on: January 23, 2017, 09:13:25 AM »
Quote
I won't diagnose anyone's personality disorder, but I will agree with you that the number of people who are complicit with these most blatant lies is extremely troubling.
Until there's some sort of consequence for repeating them I don't think this will stop.
I wonder if this period in our history will be studied as another example of group-hysteria.

One of the things I have noticed since the election that troubles me is the underlying anger of the hard-core trumpers.  Their guy won, but they aren't celebrating, they are still furious.  Trump has an extremely loyal group of people that will justify and fall in line with every lie he says.  It is absolutely crazy, and tremendously disturbing.  It reminds me of Jonestown.  I think if he asked, they would kill and die for him.  They are already at the point where they are perfectly okay with saying 2+2 =5.  They are all in, forever.

As a counterpoint, I find this statement quite generic and it can be applied to any politician.  There are always hardcore loyalists.  I find the rest of the comment non-productive to the topic and seems more like fear-mongering than any meaningful discussion.

It seems pretty on-topic to me.  Allow me to rephrase it like this: One of the impacts of Trump being president is that his core supporters continue to support his lies (now "alternative facts"), and unlike previous supporters who have been mixtures of joyful and jubilent at having their candidate in office, Trump supporters seem angry and are pushing to have large parts of the system blown up.

To me it seems to be very different from the core supporters of Obama, W, Clinton or Bush Sr. after their respective victories.
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nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1238 on: January 23, 2017, 10:09:03 AM »
Much better put nereo.  Trump ran with a nationalist agenda and a big part of it was to make significant changes or "blow up the system" as you stated.  So it seems logical that his supporters continue to push for this.  Why would they simply be happy that their candidate got elected - they want the changes he promised.

I watched some of the news coverage and I didn't see angry supporters - I saw joyful supporters.  Joyful supporters that still want to blow up the system.  The anger I saw was coming from the protesters - and this is expected as well.

I see a desire to destroy as being a form of anger. I'm also seeing a lot of combativeness vs attempts at unification. Perhaps we are just seeing different subsets of this population. Shrug.
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DoubleDown

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1239 on: January 23, 2017, 10:41:07 AM »
That is Trump, in his first full day as President of the United States, telling the CIA how many times he has been on the cover of Time magazine.  Twice.  Donald, it's the CIA: if they cared they could find out.

Let's add to this that he chose the Memorial Wall at the CIA (honoring officers who gave their lives in service to the CIA and their country) as his literal backdrop for his rant against 'media lies' and his crowd sizes. What a disgusting display of lack of honor and decency. I'm so glad Brennan called him out on this. His next trip should probably be to Arlington Cemetery or the Holocaust Museum so he can rant about how great Trump Steaks are and how the Mexicans and Chinese are raping us and how he didn't grab any pussies like the lying media says he did.
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nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1240 on: January 23, 2017, 10:47:24 AM »
That is Trump, in his first full day as President of the United States, telling the CIA how many times he has been on the cover of Time magazine.  Twice.  Donald, it's the CIA: if they cared they could find out.

Let's add to this that he chose the Memorial Wall at the CIA (honoring officers who gave their lives in service to the CIA and their country) as his literal backdrop for his rant against 'media lies' and his crowd sizes. What a disgusting display of lack of honor and decency. I'm so glad Brennan called him out on this.

I was flabbergasted that he did this, but I'm going to chalk this up to him and his team being utterly inexperienced at politics. Any small-town mayor would have seen that as inappropriate, but DJT looks at the Memorial Wall and says "What a fabulous backdrop this would make.  It's got stars and a flag and words like 'Honor'"
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DoubleDown

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1241 on: January 23, 2017, 11:08:10 AM »
That is Trump, in his first full day as President of the United States, telling the CIA how many times he has been on the cover of Time magazine.  Twice.  Donald, it's the CIA: if they cared they could find out.

Let's add to this that he chose the Memorial Wall at the CIA (honoring officers who gave their lives in service to the CIA and their country) as his literal backdrop for his rant against 'media lies' and his crowd sizes. What a disgusting display of lack of honor and decency. I'm so glad Brennan called him out on this.

I was flabbergasted that he did this, but I'm going to chalk this up to him and his team being utterly inexperienced at politics decency. Any small-town mayor would have seen that as inappropriate, but DJT looks at the Memorial Wall and says "What a fabulous backdrop this would make.  It's got stars and a flag and words like 'Honor'"

Ha, agreed, but FTFY
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packlawyer04

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1242 on: January 23, 2017, 11:13:09 AM »
Met with business leaders this morning trying to find a way to create more middle class jobs here in America. Oh the horror.  Hitler............


Kris

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1243 on: January 23, 2017, 11:16:34 AM »
^
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

packlawyer04

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1244 on: January 23, 2017, 11:17:23 AM »
^

Thanks for posting pictures of the protesters I saw on TV Saturday. I also saw some crazy green colored hair as well.

sol

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1245 on: January 23, 2017, 12:18:19 PM »
Today's impacts:  another federal hiring freeze which is going to cost millions of dollars, and another federal pay freeze which is going to save millions of dollars but cost my family thousands.

Fortunately this only pushes my retirement date back by a few weeks/months, because we are already so close.  It would suck a lot more to be an early career federal employee.
sol will be totally offline for most of June 2018.  You cannot reach me.  You will not hear from me.  I am not dead, just away from civilization.

MasterStache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1246 on: January 23, 2017, 12:47:14 PM »
Met with business leaders this morning trying to find a way to create more middle class jobs here in America. Oh the horror.  Hitler............

Hitler regime’s economic policy was describes as "large scale borrowing for public expenditures, and at first this was principally for civilian work -- railroads, canals and the Autobahnen [highway network]. The result was a far more effective attack on unemployment than in any other industrial country."

Hitler often spoke of the misery of the middleclass: "Along with the hungry unemployed millions of industrial workers there is the impoverishment of the whole middle class and the artisans."

I could go on. The similarities in rhetoric is absolutely frightening.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1247 on: January 23, 2017, 01:00:38 PM »
Met with business leaders this morning trying to find a way to create more middle class jobs here in America. Oh the horror.  Hitler............

Hitler regime’s economic policy was describes as "large scale borrowing for public expenditures, and at first this was principally for civilian work -- railroads, canals and the Autobahnen [highway network]. The result was a far more effective attack on unemployment than in any other industrial country."

Hitler often spoke of the misery of the middleclass: "Along with the hungry unemployed millions of industrial workers there is the impoverishment of the whole middle class and the artisans."

I could go on. The similarities in rhetoric is absolutely frightening.

Even if you set aside the Hitler comparisons for a moment ... I don't think anyone expects him to focus all of his time on punching poor people in the face. Blind squirrels and all that.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

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ncornilsen

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1248 on: January 23, 2017, 01:28:53 PM »
Met with business leaders this morning trying to find a way to create more middle class jobs here in America. Oh the horror.  Hitler............

Hitler regime’s economic policy was describes as "large scale borrowing for public expenditures, and at first this was principally for civilian work -- railroads, canals and the Autobahnen [highway network]. The result was a far more effective attack on unemployment than in any other industrial country."

Hitler often spoke of the misery of the middleclass: "Along with the hungry unemployed millions of industrial workers there is the impoverishment of the whole middle class and the artisans."

I could go on. The similarities in rhetoric is absolutely frightening.

Even if you set aside the Hitler comparisons for a moment ... I don't think anyone expects him to focus all of his time on punching poor people in the face. Blind squirrels and all that.

I've always found the Hitler comparisons to be rather lame, when used against trump, Clinton, Bush, Sanders, etc. He said the things people wanted to hear. So did sanders, so did Obama, so did Bush, etc. Its just politicking. I'm not unconcerned about some of the material proposals Trump has made, but it's a little early to tap out on the whole 'godwin's law' thing.

That said, how should Trump handle it when there's a factual inaccuracy? should he just do what Obama did and be quiet about it?

As someone who hoped trump would get in line and accomplish some of the things that actually WOULD be beneficial to us, it's incredibly frustrating to see him wasting time and continuing to be a shithead, for what seems to be the sake of it.


Gin1984

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1249 on: January 23, 2017, 01:56:13 PM »
Well there is this:
WASHINGTON ― On Monday, surrounded by other white men, President Donald Trump signed an anti-abortion executive order that has far-reaching consequences for women’s reproductive health access worldwide.

Trump reinstated the Mexico City policy, also known as the global gag rule, which was first put in place by President Ronald Reagan in 1984. It prohibits giving U.S. funding to international nongovernmental organizations that offer or advise on a wide range of family planning and reproductive health options if they include abortion ― even if U.S. dollars are not specifically used for abortion-related services.

The United States spends about $600 million a year on international assistance for family planning and reproductive health programs, making it possible for 27 million women and couples to access contraceptive services and supplies.

None of that money is spent on performing abortions. The Helms amendment has prevented U.S. tax dollars from funding overseas abortions since 1973. Proponents of the global gag rule believe the policy is nevertheless still necessary, arguing that Helms isn’t strong enough by itself.

The executive order is one of the first Trump has signed since taking office. Sitting in the Oval Office Monday, he also signed ones freezing federal hiring and withdrawing from the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade deal.

A pan of the people standing by his side showed that there were few, if any, women present.


MSNBC
Trump’s executive order has severe implications and could be deadly for women and girls in developing countries and conflict zones, who often resort to dangerous methods of ending their pregnancies when they lack access to safe abortion. The World Health Organization estimates that more than 21 million women a year have unsafe abortions in developing countries, accounting for about 13 percent of all maternal deaths.

The policy is rescinded and reinstated based on which party is in power. President Bill Clinton did away with it, President George W. Bush put it back and then President Barack Obama rescinded it again when he took office.