Author Topic: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?  (Read 180542 times)

nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1150 on: January 20, 2017, 11:41:18 AM »
In less than 30 minutes both the White House Climate Change webpage and Department of Laborís report on Advancing LGBT Workplace Rights has been taken down.


https://www.whitehouse.gov/energy/climate-change

"Sound energy policy begins with the recognition that we have vast untapped domestic energy reserves right here in America. The Trump Administration will embrace the shale oil and gas revolution to bring jobs and prosperity to millions of Americans. We must take advantage of the estimated $50 trillion in untapped shale, oil, and natural gas reserves, especially those on federal lands that the American people own. We will use the revenues from energy production to rebuild our roads, schools, bridges and public infrastructure. Less expensive energy will be a big boost to American agriculture, as well."

THis on the new White House website.
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

SisterX

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1151 on: January 20, 2017, 11:43:14 AM »

Wouldn't this be everyone in developed countries? I mean, I see very few people give up their car, walk everywhere, stop buying anything produced or transported or powered by fossil fuels, switch to renewable power and make sure to offset the footprint of the production and transportation of that power generation with carbon sinks. Or just DOING WITHOUT. I mean... literally no one is doing these things.  Everyone is paying lip service to climate change while actively destroying the planet. I mean, at this point it doesn't matter and everyone is screwed no matter what, so to rag on some people because they drive an SUV is pretty lame - we are all just as guilty as they are, perhaps even more so if we know what we are doing is leading directly to the death and disaster of millions of people, but we just can't stop eating food from half way across the country or using energy to power our laptop to post about how green everyone else should be.

Just because this is true of you and your peer group does not mean it's true everywhere. And I can't even say what I see is because I'm currently in a liberal state. My former red state, people are thinking about these things and talking and making changes as well. I currently know quite a few people who are carless -- with families! My own family has one car which gets used approximate 1-2 times per week, always with more than one person, and there are three adults/drivers who have use of it. (Me, spouse, brother.) We each, individually, put more miles on our bikes each week than we collectively do for the car.
I could list all the other ways we work at being environmentally friendly (giving up the dryer, turning down the heat, turning off lights and electronics, etc.) and we didn't even need to buy fancy new tech for it! You know, we "gave stuff up" the way you're saying people don't. And it's spreading among my peer group! Yes, my life and those of my family are having an impact on the planet. But that doesn't take away from the fact that we're trying to minimize that impact.
On the other hand, why should I tell you about these measures? You think it's useless anyway, and are using that as a shield to ignore your own hypocrisy and avoid taking action. Awesome.
I'm thinking that your dander is up because you are one of those people I was talking about. Go ahead and whine that we're screwed anyway. The rest of us will actually be out there trying to make the world a better place because that's worthwhile. Your defeatist attitude? It is not worthwhile, in any way shape or form. Have fun with it, though! "Here lies MetricMouse, who believed we were all screwed anyway and lived his life in a way that ensured it. RIP."

Pooplips

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1152 on: January 20, 2017, 11:51:37 AM »
Obviously, this would need to be phased in over time and I wouldn't expect any industy to retroactively capture green house gases if thats what you meant by recapture.

I agree it is an open-ended fallacy type peoplem because everyone has there own line they would like to have drawn. I agree pollution is non-linear. Exponentially increases may be needed.

It will be forever changing. Somethings that aren't pollutants now may be in the future.

My issue is, picking which energy to subsidise will be at the expense of some energy not even discovered yet. Its impossible to prove that negative but imagine if the goverment subsidised the pneumatic/steam power industry because they thought it was a better technology than electricity. (That may be a terrible illustration but you get the idea)

accolay

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1153 on: January 20, 2017, 11:53:36 AM »
Quote
The Trump Administration is also committed to clean coal technology, and to reviving Americaís coal industry, which has been hurting for too long.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/america-first-energy

There is no such thing as clean coal. Public Relations talking point. We're so fucked.

Edit. All of the new whitehouse.gov policy positions make me sick.

Unique User

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1154 on: January 20, 2017, 11:56:24 AM »
In less than 30 minutes both the White House Climate Change webpage and Department of Laborís report on Advancing LGBT Workplace Rights has been taken down.


https://www.whitehouse.gov/energy/climate-change

"Sound energy policy begins with the recognition that we have vast untapped domestic energy reserves right here in America. The Trump Administration will embrace the shale oil and gas revolution to bring jobs and prosperity to millions of Americans. We must take advantage of the estimated $50 trillion in untapped shale, oil, and natural gas reserves, especially those on federal lands that the American people own. We will use the revenues from energy production to rebuild our roads, schools, bridges and public infrastructure. Less expensive energy will be a big boost to American agriculture, as well."

THis on the new White House website.

so it begins, we're all screwed. 

Pooplips

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1155 on: January 20, 2017, 11:57:00 AM »
Fossil fuels are bad now but they wouldn't be if we could pull the bad stuff out. If that tech developed would you subsidise fossil fuels?

Is my mic on?  I feel like I'm repeating myself.


I didn't mean to make you upset Sol. haha. Yes, those were bad things done in the past but is your solution really to just tip the scales as far as you can the other way?

My goal it to even the scale by the way.

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1156 on: January 20, 2017, 12:33:45 PM »

Wouldn't this be everyone in developed countries? I mean, I see very few people give up their car, walk everywhere, stop buying anything produced or transported or powered by fossil fuels, switch to renewable power and make sure to offset the footprint of the production and transportation of that power generation with carbon sinks. Or just DOING WITHOUT. I mean... literally no one is doing these things.  Everyone is paying lip service to climate change while actively destroying the planet. I mean, at this point it doesn't matter and everyone is screwed no matter what, so to rag on some people because they drive an SUV is pretty lame - we are all just as guilty as they are, perhaps even more so if we know what we are doing is leading directly to the death and disaster of millions of people, but we just can't stop eating food from half way across the country or using energy to power our laptop to post about how green everyone else should be.

Just because this is true of you and your peer group does not mean it's true everywhere. And I can't even say what I see is because I'm currently in a liberal state. My former red state, people are thinking about these things and talking and making changes as well. I currently know quite a few people who are carless -- with families! My own family has one car which gets used approximate 1-2 times per week, always with more than one person, and there are three adults/drivers who have use of it. (Me, spouse, brother.) We each, individually, put more miles on our bikes each week than we collectively do for the car.
I could list all the other ways we work at being environmentally friendly (giving up the dryer, turning down the heat, turning off lights and electronics, etc.) and we didn't even need to buy fancy new tech for it! You know, we "gave stuff up" the way you're saying people don't. And it's spreading among my peer group! Yes, my life and those of my family are having an impact on the planet. But that doesn't take away from the fact that we're trying to minimize that impact.
On the other hand, why should I tell you about these measures? You think it's useless anyway, and are using that as a shield to ignore your own hypocrisy and avoid taking action. Awesome.
I'm thinking that your dander is up because you are one of those people I was talking about. Go ahead and whine that we're screwed anyway. The rest of us will actually be out there trying to make the world a better place because that's worthwhile. Your defeatist attitude? It is not worthwhile, in any way shape or form. Have fun with it, though! "Here lies MetricMouse, who believed we were all screwed anyway and lived his life in a way that ensured it. RIP."
Turning down the heat, replacing light bulbs with leds, carpooling... really? People are absolutely going to die because of climate change. If anyone thinks that riding a bike built from parts sourced around the world and shipped across oceans using diesel electric engines that spew pollution directly into the ocean, and are then assembled in factories powered by fossil fuels is offsetting the harm that they are creating to others, they are delusional.  I am quite aware of my impact on the environment, and how much it will harm hundreds of people  (just my own impact will be responsible for this, if not greater damage). I don't pretend that sharing a xar or line drying my clothes means I won't cause serious pain to hundreds or thousands of others. To do so is an exercise in cognitive dissonance, especially if one has children, which will add exponentially to one's climate impact.

The point is that everyone in midern societies is ensuring this will happen; riding.a bicycle or eating a few pounds less meat than one's neighbors is changing the outcome literally in no way for anyone; this is fine if one recognizes that and accepts that their choices are murdering hundreds of others; it's not ok for one to ride a bike "more than they use their car" and think they are accomplishing something. Millions of people live without cars, or even bicycles; and life is about to get even worse for them.  The fact that people in North America even have clothes dryers or cars or imported bicycles or food from other states is the problem.
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1157 on: January 20, 2017, 12:36:28 PM »
In less than 30 minutes both the White House Climate Change webpage and Department of Laborís report on Advancing LGBT Workplace Rights has been taken down.


https://www.whitehouse.gov/energy/climate-change

"Sound energy policy begins with the recognition that we have vast untapped domestic energy reserves right here in America. The Trump Administration will embrace the shale oil and gas revolution to bring jobs and prosperity to millions of Americans. We must take advantage of the estimated $50 trillion in untapped shale, oil, and natural gas reserves, especially those on federal lands that the American people own. We will use the revenues from energy production to rebuild our roads, schools, bridges and public infrastructure. Less expensive energy will be a big boost to American agriculture, as well."

THis on the new White House website.

Where's my dividend check?
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/digging-out-of-a-hole/

NoStacheOhio

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1158 on: January 20, 2017, 12:38:29 PM »
Fossil fuels are bad now but they wouldn't be if we could pull the bad stuff out. If that tech developed would you subsidise fossil fuels?

Is my mic on?  I feel like I'm repeating myself.


I didn't mean to make you upset Sol. haha. Yes, those were bad things done in the past but is your solution really to just tip the scales as far as you can the other way?

My goal it to even the scale by the way.

You have an interesting definition of "even" if you think Sol's advocating tipping as far as you can the other way. He's saying coming anywhere close to "even" would take metric assloads of money subsidizing renewables, and immediately cutting off the fossils.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/digging-out-of-a-hole/

sol

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1159 on: January 20, 2017, 12:39:13 PM »
The point is that everyone in midern societies is ensuring this will happen; riding.a bicycle or eating a few pounds less meat than one's neighbors is changing the outcome literally in no way for anyone;

I disagree.  Your personal individual choices can absolutely have a positive impact on other people.

calimom

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1160 on: January 20, 2017, 12:40:33 PM »
In less than 30 minutes both the White House Climate Change webpage and Department of Laborís report on Advancing LGBT Workplace Rights has been taken down.


https://www.whitehouse.gov/energy/climate-change

Fuck.  This is really happening.

...and somewhere people are cheering about this. It's so fucked up.

sol

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1161 on: January 20, 2017, 12:45:43 PM »
He's saying coming anywhere close to "even" would take metric assloads of money subsidizing renewables, and immediately cutting off the fossils.

For hundreds of years, yes.  And that's clearly not going to happen.

So instead, I'd settle for offering identical subsidies to renewable energy companies that we currently offer to carbon industries.  Those subsidies probably can't be zero, because we have so much national security investment in protecting carbon industries, but we could at least increase renewable energy subsidies to match the carbon subsidies we're committed to.

But this is fantasy land.  Our new President hates renewable energy and adores coal.  He thinks climate change is a hoax, and clearly has no understanding of the basic physics behind energy balances.  He'll slash investments in renewable energy and increase oil drilling on US federal lands.  He'll withdraw from the Paris climate accord.  He'll do everything one man can do to ruin the planet that he and his own family have to live on, in part because he and his can live forever inside a hermetically sealed Trump Tower and so they don't really care what happens to wherever everyone else lives.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 12:52:40 PM by sol »

Pooplips

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1162 on: January 20, 2017, 12:46:34 PM »
Fossil fuels are bad now but they wouldn't be if we could pull the bad stuff out. If that tech developed would you subsidise fossil fuels?

Is my mic on?  I feel like I'm repeating myself.


I didn't mean to make you upset Sol. haha. Yes, those were bad things done in the past but is your solution really to just tip the scales as far as you can the other way?

My goal it to even the scale by the way.

You have an interesting definition of "even" if you think Sol's advocating tipping as far as you can the other way. He's saying coming anywhere close to "even" would take metric assloads of money subsidizing renewables, and immediately cutting off the fossils.

I don't know why I am entertaining you NoStache but I would consider no subsidies for anyone fair, which is what I am advocating for.

GuitarStv

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1163 on: January 20, 2017, 12:50:34 PM »
The point is that everyone in midern societies is ensuring this will happen; riding.a bicycle or eating a few pounds less meat than one's neighbors is changing the outcome literally in no way for anyone; this is fine if one recognizes that and accepts that their choices are murdering hundreds of others; it's not ok for one to ride a bike "more than they use their car" and think they are accomplishing something. Millions of people live without cars, or even bicycles; and life is about to get even worse for them.  The fact that people in North America even have clothes dryers or cars or imported bicycles or food from other states is the problem.

It's true that one single person on a planet of billions is unlikely to have a serious impact on the world.  It's a big problem, there's no quick fix, and we aren't really treating it seriously yet.

Attempting to reduce your personal ecological footprint on the world will probably not reverse climate change.  That doesn't mean that your actions have no value.  People are social creatures . . . and we have shown the ability to learn from mistakes and alter behavioural patterns based on social whim.  (Look at how behaviour regarding religion, smoking, discrimination, and homosexuality have changed in the west in the last 100 years.)  One person may not have much of an impact, but when many people start to change how they view their own link to the environment there is a noticeable difference.

Your stated view is not just wrong, the bleakness acts as disincentive to even attempt to change things for the better.

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1164 on: January 20, 2017, 12:59:48 PM »
The point is that everyone in midern societies is ensuring this will happen; riding.a bicycle or eating a few pounds less meat than one's neighbors is changing the outcome literally in no way for anyone;

I disagree.  Your personal individual choices can absolutely have a positive impact on other people.

While i absolutely agree with this statement in the general sense, I am unconvinced that it applies to the global imoact of climate change.  There was a time when individual choices could have had an impact upon the devastation that will occur; that time has passed. Now the options range from global shit storm to even worse global shit storm; turning down the temp on every water heater in North America will not move that needle measurably. I'm open to science that disagrees, but I have struggled to find overwhelming evidence that the suggested measures, even if appliedto the larger population, would improve the outcome for even a mdoerate number of persons.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 01:12:51 PM by Metric Mouse »
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MustacheMathTM

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1165 on: January 20, 2017, 01:03:54 PM »
In less than 30 minutes both the White House Climate Change webpage and Department of Laborís report on Advancing LGBT Workplace Rights has been taken down.


https://www.whitehouse.gov/energy/climate-change

"Sound energy policy begins with the recognition that we have vast untapped domestic energy reserves right here in America. The Trump Administration will embrace the shale oil and gas revolution to bring jobs and prosperity to millions of Americans. We must take advantage of the estimated $50 trillion in untapped shale, oil, and natural gas reserves, especially those on federal lands that the American people own. We will use the revenues from energy production to rebuild our roads, schools, bridges and public infrastructure. Less expensive energy will be a big boost to American agriculture, as well."

THis on the new White House website.

Where's my dividend check?

Going into Trump's pocket. 

sol

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1166 on: January 20, 2017, 01:19:36 PM »
The point is that everyone in midern societies is ensuring this will happen; riding.a bicycle or eating a few pounds less meat than one's neighbors is changing the outcome literally in no way for anyone;

I disagree.  Your personal individual choices can absolutely have a positive impact on other people.

While i absolutely agree with this statement in the general sense, I am unconvinced that it apllies to the global imoact of climate change.  There was a time when individual choices could have had an impact upon the devastation that will occur; that time has passed.

Do you think your personal choices can have value beyond their impact on other people?

I'm a scientist and an atheist, so I won't pretend to believe in some magical fairy tale interpretation of human values.  But I have found useful perspectives on how to be a good person in a variety of religions, and one of the most helpful to me has been Buddhism's five remembrances.  The fifth one is sometimes translated as "I am the owner of my actions and nothing else.  Whatever I choose to do, good or bad, become all that I am."

The remembrances are designed to help a person overcome their natural human faults, like pride and greed.  The fifth one is designed to help a person overcome their natural irresponsibility.  It reminds you that while the universe goes on without you, you are still a little part of it and your choices do matter.  You can't abdicate your existence, and you thus can't avoid being defined by the choices you make.

In the context of this discussion about climate change, your decision to conserve or waste resources still defines who you are as a person, regardless of the impact of that decision on others.  Are you a person who is wasteful?  Are you a person who contributes more to the destruction of our world than is necessary?  Are you a person who prioritizes your own luxury over the suffering of others?

By analogy, Donald Trump is also just one individual.  Do his personal choices also not matter?  If they do matter but yours don't, what has he done to make his choices more meaningful than yours, that you could not also do?

SisterX

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1167 on: January 20, 2017, 01:43:21 PM »
The point is that everyone in midern societies is ensuring this will happen; riding.a bicycle or eating a few pounds less meat than one's neighbors is changing the outcome literally in no way for anyone;

I disagree.  Your personal individual choices can absolutely have a positive impact on other people.

While i absolutely agree with this statement in the general sense, I am unconvinced that it applies to the global imoact of climate change.  There was a time when individual choices could have had an impact upon the devastation that will occur; that time has passed. Now the options range from global shit storm to even worse global shit storm; turning down the temp on every water heater in North America will not move that needle measurably. I'm open to science that disagrees, but I have struggled to find overwhelming evidence that the suggested measures, even if appliedto the larger population, would improve the outcome for even a mdoerate number of persons.

My impact individually might not be great, and it will always be more than some starving kid in India's. Fine. But it's about spreading that impact, getting more people to follow a better way. I have an impact on those around me when I'm cheerful or not, why would my reduction in driving not have an impact as well? I might not be able to influence the world but I can sure as hell impact my community.

I'm not going to argue with you any more because you clearly have your mind set. I just want to say that you have a very sad, bleak outlook on life, and I refuse to buy into it.

waltworks

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1168 on: January 20, 2017, 02:56:58 PM »
Look, it's just mathematically too late for the Nissan Leaf/vegetarian solution (keep in mind, I say this as someone who practically never drives a car and hasn't eaten meat for 25 years). CO2 levels have been rising because of humans since the mid/late 1800s - do you have any idea how much more we generate now than then? It's many orders of magnitude. Cutting our emissions by 50 or 60 or even 90% wouldn't be enough at this point.

Hell, the energy required to run our collective Facebook (and MMM) accounts and data is probably more than all of human civilization used 100 years ago.

We are going to have to hope for a bailout from biotech (rocket fuel trees!) or fusion or something similar. Or we'll have to do some geoengineering and/or adapt to a different climate.

Cutting emissions is still a good idea, of course. It buys time, and it's always dumb to waste resources. But it's not a realistic solution to the greenhouse effect.

-W

adamb

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1169 on: January 20, 2017, 03:21:44 PM »
Nereo, I agree with all your points. The coal issues are very complicated but I am hopeful things will improve.

Same with miles driven many variables but things are going in the right direction for the most part

I just don't see actual clean fossil fuels being more cost-effective than improving solar. The R&D money is better spent bringing costs down on capturing the infinite free energy falling on most of our heads during daylight hours.
I'll belive this when i see it. When renewables are more cost effective, they will be used, period. Until they are, fossil fuels have many advantages, ontop of price, sadly.

New wind and solar power are now cheaper than new natural gas power, significantly cheaper than new coal and nuclear power (but not current, fully depreciated coal power, altho its catching up). Specifically, 9.5 GW of solar, 8 GW of LNG, 8 GW of wind,and 1 GW of nuclear was added in the US last year. Note this is capacity, where wind/solar are at about 40% while LNG and nuclear are in 80-90% (tho most LNG being added going forward are 'peaker' plants, which only run a few hours at a time to meet peak demand, and will not run all the time).

0 GW of coal was added. That is tremendous. The transition is should be encouraged responsibly, not have roadblocks thrown in front of it.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1170 on: January 20, 2017, 03:32:40 PM »

Wouldn't this be everyone in developed countries? I mean, I see very few people give up their car, walk everywhere, stop buying anything produced or transported or powered by fossil fuels, switch to renewable power and make sure to offset the footprint of the production and transportation of that power generation with carbon sinks. Or just DOING WITHOUT. I mean... literally no one is doing these things.  Everyone is paying lip service to climate change while actively destroying the planet. I mean, at this point it doesn't matter and everyone is screwed no matter what, so to rag on some people because they drive an SUV is pretty lame - we are all just as guilty as they are, perhaps even more so if we know what we are doing is leading directly to the death and disaster of millions of people, but we just can't stop eating food from half way across the country or using energy to power our laptop to post about how green everyone else should be.

Just because this is true of you and your peer group does not mean it's true everywhere. And I can't even say what I see is because I'm currently in a liberal state. My former red state, people are thinking about these things and talking and making changes as well. I currently know quite a few people who are carless -- with families! My own family has one car which gets used approximate 1-2 times per week, always with more than one person, and there are three adults/drivers who have use of it. (Me, spouse, brother.) We each, individually, put more miles on our bikes each week than we collectively do for the car.
I could list all the other ways we work at being environmentally friendly (giving up the dryer, turning down the heat, turning off lights and electronics, etc.) and we didn't even need to buy fancy new tech for it! You know, we "gave stuff up" the way you're saying people don't. And it's spreading among my peer group! Yes, my life and those of my family are having an impact on the planet. But that doesn't take away from the fact that we're trying to minimize that impact.
On the other hand, why should I tell you about these measures? You think it's useless anyway, and are using that as a shield to ignore your own hypocrisy and avoid taking action. Awesome.
I'm thinking that your dander is up because you are one of those people I was talking about. Go ahead and whine that we're screwed anyway. The rest of us will actually be out there trying to make the world a better place because that's worthwhile. Your defeatist attitude? It is not worthwhile, in any way shape or form. Have fun with it, though! "Here lies MetricMouse, who believed we were all screwed anyway and lived his life in a way that ensured it. RIP."
Turning down the heat, replacing light bulbs with leds, carpooling... really? People are absolutely going to die because of climate change. If anyone thinks that riding a bike built from parts sourced around the world and shipped across oceans using diesel electric engines that spew pollution directly into the ocean, and are then assembled in factories powered by fossil fuels is offsetting the harm that they are creating to others, they are delusional.  I am quite aware of my impact on the environment, and how much it will harm hundreds of people  (just my own impact will be responsible for this, if not greater damage). I don't pretend that sharing a xar or line drying my clothes means I won't cause serious pain to hundreds or thousands of others. To do so is an exercise in cognitive dissonance, especially if one has children, which will add exponentially to one's climate impact.

The point is that everyone in midern societies is ensuring this will happen; riding.a bicycle or eating a few pounds less meat than one's neighbors is changing the outcome literally in no way for anyone; this is fine if one recognizes that and accepts that their choices are murdering hundreds of others; it's not ok for one to ride a bike "more than they use their car" and think they are accomplishing something. Millions of people live without cars, or even bicycles; and life is about to get even worse for them.  The fact that people in North America even have clothes dryers or cars or imported bicycles or food from other states is the problem.

What a terrible, (and uniformed attitude). Obama pushed through massive energy efficiency that have brought tremendous benefits. LED's use 90% less electricity, fridges use 75% less, hell his rule on AC alone brought the entirety of US electricity use down by 1% by itself. These rules mostly had industry support btw.

Know all the coal plants that have closed over the past 10 years? many closed BC natural gas is cheaper, but many also closed and simply were not replaced because the energy produced by them simply wasn't needed anymore!

https://powerforthepeopleva.com/2016/08/30/the-fuel-thats-helping-america-fight-climate-change-isnt-natural-gas/

Guess what, if every car on the road is electric, and all energy production is 0 carbon, it makes a difference! No one wants people to live a spartan life. There is a world of difference in between wasteful and sleeping outside with no amenities.

FYI no one is doing this so they can act smug to you so stop making it about yourself. They are doing it because they want to leave a better future to the next generation. Implying there's no point in trying' doesn't benefit anyone.

GuitarStv

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1171 on: January 20, 2017, 05:11:46 PM »
FYI no one is doing this so they can act smug to you so stop making it about yourself.

Yeah, that's just a fringe benefit!  :P

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1172 on: January 20, 2017, 07:59:30 PM »

Wouldn't this be everyone in developed countries? I mean, I see very few people give up their car, walk everywhere, stop buying anything produced or transported or powered by fossil fuels, switch to renewable power and make sure to offset the footprint of the production and transportation of that power generation with carbon sinks. Or just DOING WITHOUT. I mean... literally no one is doing these things.  Everyone is paying lip service to climate change while actively destroying the planet. I mean, at this point it doesn't matter and everyone is screwed no matter what, so to rag on some people because they drive an SUV is pretty lame - we are all just as guilty as they are, perhaps even more so if we know what we are doing is leading directly to the death and disaster of millions of people, but we just can't stop eating food from half way across the country or using energy to power our laptop to post about how green everyone else should be.

Just because this is true of you and your peer group does not mean it's true everywhere. And I can't even say what I see is because I'm currently in a liberal state. My former red state, people are thinking about these things and talking and making changes as well. I currently know quite a few people who are carless -- with families! My own family has one car which gets used approximate 1-2 times per week, always with more than one person, and there are three adults/drivers who have use of it. (Me, spouse, brother.) We each, individually, put more miles on our bikes each week than we collectively do for the car.
I could list all the other ways we work at being environmentally friendly (giving up the dryer, turning down the heat, turning off lights and electronics, etc.) and we didn't even need to buy fancy new tech for it! You know, we "gave stuff up" the way you're saying people don't. And it's spreading among my peer group! Yes, my life and those of my family are having an impact on the planet. But that doesn't take away from the fact that we're trying to minimize that impact.
On the other hand, why should I tell you about these measures? You think it's useless anyway, and are using that as a shield to ignore your own hypocrisy and avoid taking action. Awesome.
I'm thinking that your dander is up because you are one of those people I was talking about. Go ahead and whine that we're screwed anyway. The rest of us will actually be out there trying to make the world a better place because that's worthwhile. Your defeatist attitude? It is not worthwhile, in any way shape or form. Have fun with it, though! "Here lies MetricMouse, who believed we were all screwed anyway and lived his life in a way that ensured it. RIP."
Turning down the heat, replacing light bulbs with leds, carpooling... really? People are absolutely going to die because of climate change. If anyone thinks that riding a bike built from parts sourced around the world and shipped across oceans using diesel electric engines that spew pollution directly into the ocean, and are then assembled in factories powered by fossil fuels is offsetting the harm that they are creating to others, they are delusional.  I am quite aware of my impact on the environment, and how much it will harm hundreds of people  (just my own impact will be responsible for this, if not greater damage). I don't pretend that sharing a xar or line drying my clothes means I won't cause serious pain to hundreds or thousands of others. To do so is an exercise in cognitive dissonance, especially if one has children, which will add exponentially to one's climate impact.

The point is that everyone in midern societies is ensuring this will happen; riding.a bicycle or eating a few pounds less meat than one's neighbors is changing the outcome literally in no way for anyone; this is fine if one recognizes that and accepts that their choices are murdering hundreds of others; it's not ok for one to ride a bike "more than they use their car" and think they are accomplishing something. Millions of people live without cars, or even bicycles; and life is about to get even worse for them.  The fact that people in North America even have clothes dryers or cars or imported bicycles or food from other states is the problem.

What a terrible, (and uniformed attitude). Obama pushed through massive energy efficiency that have brought tremendous benefits. LED's use 90% less electricity, fridges use 75% less, hell his rule on AC alone brought the entirety of US electricity use down by 1% by itself. These rules mostly had industry support btw.

Know all the coal plants that have closed over the past 10 years? many closed BC natural gas is cheaper, but many also closed and simply were not replaced because the energy produced by them simply wasn't needed anymore!

https://powerforthepeopleva.com/2016/08/30/the-fuel-thats-helping-america-fight-climate-change-isnt-natural-gas/

Guess what, if every car on the road is electric, and all energy production is 0 carbon, it makes a difference! No one wants people to live a spartan life. There is a world of difference in between wasteful and sleeping outside with no amenities.

FYI no one is doing this so they can act smug to you so stop making it about yourself. They are doing it because they want to leave a better future to the next generation. Implying there's no point in trying' doesn't benefit anyone.

How'd that work out for agw? Still happening? Still getting worse every day? Still no real plans to head off the worst of the effects? Let me know when that changes.

I mean, if people want to think that driving an electric car made from precious metals mined halfway around the world and formed from processed  petroleum products or that eating more vegetables is going to save lives or mitigate the effects of climate change for the poorest people on the planet, they are welcome to. They are wrong, but welcome to think whatever they want. If they are doing it to feel better about themselves while effecting zero real change, that's cool too: just be informed and honest about it.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2017, 06:11:59 AM by Metric Mouse »
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sol

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1173 on: January 20, 2017, 11:59:26 PM »
Today Trump has apparently banned all Department of Interior agencies from using Twitter anymore.

I'm not even sure what to say to that.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1174 on: January 21, 2017, 06:14:10 AM »
Today Trump has apparently banned all Department of Interior agencies from using Twitter anymore.

I'm not even sure what to say to that.
Did he think they were stealing his limelight? I can't say that I've ever read a tweet from any Dept. Of Interior agency, so I guess I am personally unaffected.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1175 on: January 21, 2017, 06:22:31 AM »
Did anyone see this petition that started yesterday right after oath to force him to release his tax returns?

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/immediately-release-donald-trumps-full-tax-returns-all-information-needed-verify-emoluments-clause-compliance

Not sure there are laws that can force him to do this.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1176 on: January 21, 2017, 07:43:35 AM »
Today Trump has apparently banned all Department of Interior agencies from using Twitter anymore.

I'm not even sure what to say to that.
Did he think they were stealing his limelight? I can't say that I've ever read a tweet from any Dept. Of Interior agency, so I guess I am personally unaffected.

They tweeted a picture of the crowd at his inauguration, next to a pic of the crowd at Obama's.

And Trump's fee-fees got hurt.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1177 on: January 21, 2017, 07:44:17 AM »
Today Trump has apparently banned all Department of Interior agencies from using Twitter anymore.

I'm not even sure what to say to that.

This is called disciplinary action.  Here is the news story.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/01/20/interior-department-banned-from-twitter-after-retweet-of-smaller-than-usual-trump-inauguration-crowd/?utm_term=.b7cb78052886

Not to mention that the inaugural crowds were getting blocked by Black Lives Matter and other protesters who were holding up attendees and shutting down entrances to the events. Bah.

If the department is misbehaving, then I am all for discipline until they get their roles understood.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1178 on: January 21, 2017, 09:07:07 AM »
Wow, BLM is impressive if they can block hundreds of thousands of people from DC...

Look, he's the least popular incoming president in modern American history. There is no way around that. He might do great, he might not, but there is no reason to get upset that very few people (relatively speaking) are excited about him or his inauguration.

-W

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1179 on: January 21, 2017, 09:18:00 AM »
From the number of buses, the women's march looks like it'll be much bigger as well.

sol

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1180 on: January 21, 2017, 09:23:04 AM »
I can't say that I've ever read a tweet from any Dept. Of Interior agency, so I guess I am personally unaffected.

Around here, NPS uses Twitter to announce all of the road closures to the parks, usually due to snow conditions.  They are now going to use Facebook instead, which is apparently still allowed.

This is called disciplinary action. 

I think it's punitive action, and poor leadership.  Social media accounts are run by people, who can make mistakes and be disciplined or fired.  But to shut down an entire communications service for nine entire agencies because you're afraid of pictures retweeted by one communications person at one facility in one agency?  That just seems petty and small minded.

In comparison to some of the things Trump has retweeted over the past year, I think the park service retweeting inauguration photos that took place in one of their parks is pretty harmless.  Our new Pres is a little thin skinned, though, so I expect every perceived slight to be met with punitive action for as long as he is in office.

He's a bully.  There was a correct way to deal with this situation, and this definitely wasn't it.  This is not inspiring confidence in his leadership abilities.

« Last Edit: January 21, 2017, 10:05:49 AM by sol »

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1181 on: January 21, 2017, 10:13:12 AM »
In less than 30 minutes both the White House Climate Change webpage and Department of Laborís report on Advancing LGBT Workplace Rights has been taken down.


https://www.whitehouse.gov/energy/climate-change

sigh.....tons of pages were taken down. That is what happens you re-design webpages after a change in power.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1182 on: January 21, 2017, 10:15:55 AM »
I can't say that I've ever read a tweet from any Dept. Of Interior agency, so I guess I am personally unaffected.

Around here, NPS uses Twitter to announce all of the road closures to the parks, usually due to snow conditions.  They are now going to use Facebook instead, which is apparently still allowed.

This is called disciplinary action. 

I think it's punitive action, and poor leadership.  Social media accounts are run by people, who can make mistakes and be disciplined or fired.  But to shut down an entire communications service for nine entire agencies because you're afraid of pictures retweeted by one communications person at one facility in one agency?  That just seems petty and small minded.

In comparison to some of the things Trump has retweeted over the past year, I think the park service retweeting inauguration photos that took place in one of their parks is pretty harmless.  Our new Pres is a little thin skinned, though, so I expect every perceived slight to be met with punitive action for as long as he is in office.

He's a bully.  There was a correct way to deal with this situation, and this definitely wasn't it.  This is not inspiring confidence in his leadership abilities.

lol.   Maybe he can have a beer summit.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1183 on: January 21, 2017, 10:25:51 AM »
Quote
lol.   Maybe he can have a beer summit.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1184 on: January 21, 2017, 11:07:24 AM »
Around here, NPS uses Twitter to announce all of the road closures to the parks, usually due to snow conditions.  They are now going to use Facebook instead, which is apparently still allowed.

I think it's punitive action, and poor leadership.  Social media accounts are run by people, who can make mistakes and be disciplined or fired.  But to shut down an entire communications service for nine entire agencies because you're afraid of pictures retweeted by one communications person at one facility in one agency?  That just seems petty and small minded.
 This is not inspiring confidence in his leadership abilities.

All the National Parks have their own dedicated Web sites for tourist and travel information.  This should not affect the public in a dramatic way, and I do not expect that the Twitter access will be cut for long,  at least for essential communication.

It is one thing if the parks are asked to give information to the media but another thing for the department to make comments about the new President, on day one!  If the department wants to initiate game-playing with the Executive, they should be disciplined!!!  It is small minded to post garbage about the President.  I am confident in Trump and he's not going to let any underlings pull any shit and get away with it.  T

accolay

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1185 on: January 21, 2017, 11:09:31 AM »


Thought I'd make my own.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1186 on: January 21, 2017, 11:11:33 AM »
In less than 30 minutes both the White House Climate Change webpage and Department of Laborís report on Advancing LGBT Workplace Rights has been taken down.


https://www.whitehouse.gov/energy/climate-change

sigh.....tons of pages were taken down. That is what happens you re-design webpages after a change in power.
Thank you for the update. It's amazing how these claims can float around until someone refutes them.
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Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1187 on: January 21, 2017, 11:14:38 AM »
Around here, NPS uses Twitter to announce all of the road closures to the parks, usually due to snow conditions.  They are now going to use Facebook instead, which is apparently still allowed.

I think it's punitive action, and poor leadership.  Social media accounts are run by people, who can make mistakes and be disciplined or fired.  But to shut down an entire communications service for nine entire agencies because you're afraid of pictures retweeted by one communications person at one facility in one agency?  That just seems petty and small minded.
 This is not inspiring confidence in his leadership abilities.

All the National Parks have their own dedicated Web sites for tourist and travel information.  This should not affect the public in a dramatic way, and I do not expect that the Twitter access will be cut for long,  at least for essential communication.

It is one thing if the parks are asked to give information to the media but another thing for the department to make comments about the new President, on day one!  If the department wants to initiate game-playing with the Executive, they should be disciplined!!!  It is small minded to post garbage about the President.  I am confident in Trump and he's not going to let any underlings pull any shit and get away with it.  T
Intersting perspective.  Im not sure if I'm impressed that even small, petty, unprofessional acts will be handled quickly and sternly, or worried that everyone will be too afraid of the POTUS to act at all. There's definitely a fine line there, and I'm sure there will be acts that fall on both sides of it. President is a tough job after all.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1188 on: January 21, 2017, 11:15:32 AM »
Around here, NPS uses Twitter to announce all of the road closures to the parks, usually due to snow conditions.  They are now going to use Facebook instead, which is apparently still allowed.

I think it's punitive action, and poor leadership.  Social media accounts are run by people, who can make mistakes and be disciplined or fired.  But to shut down an entire communications service for nine entire agencies because you're afraid of pictures retweeted by one communications person at one facility in one agency?  That just seems petty and small minded.
 This is not inspiring confidence in his leadership abilities.

All the National Parks have their own dedicated Web sites for tourist and travel information.  This should not affect the public in a dramatic way, and I do not expect that the Twitter access will be cut for long,  at least for essential communication.

It is one thing if the parks are asked to give information to the media but another thing for the department to make comments about the new President, on day one!  If the department wants to initiate game-playing with the Executive, they should be disciplined!!!  It is small minded to post garbage about the President.  I am confident in Trump and he's not going to let any underlings pull any shit and get away with it.  T

Already back up.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/01/20/interior-department-banned-from-twitter-after-retweet-of-smaller-than-usual-trump-inauguration-crowd/?utm_term=.fb137cc938d1

What exactly are you confident in Trump for?

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1189 on: January 21, 2017, 11:23:47 AM »
Around here, NPS uses Twitter to announce all of the road closures to the parks, usually due to snow conditions.  They are now going to use Facebook instead, which is apparently still allowed.

I think it's punitive action, and poor leadership.  Social media accounts are run by people, who can make mistakes and be disciplined or fired.  But to shut down an entire communications service for nine entire agencies because you're afraid of pictures retweeted by one communications person at one facility in one agency?  That just seems petty and small minded.
 This is not inspiring confidence in his leadership abilities.

All the National Parks have their own dedicated Web sites for tourist and travel information.  This should not affect the public in a dramatic way, and I do not expect that the Twitter access will be cut for long,  at least for essential communication.

It is one thing if the parks are asked to give information to the media but another thing for the department to make comments about the new President, on day one!  If the department wants to initiate game-playing with the Executive, they should be disciplined!!!  It is small minded to post garbage about the President.  I am confident in Trump and he's not going to let any underlings pull any shit and get away with it.  T

Already back up.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/01/20/interior-department-banned-from-twitter-after-retweet-of-smaller-than-usual-trump-inauguration-crowd/?utm_term=.fb137cc938d1

What exactly are you confident in Trump for?
Interesting. The article claims the shutdown was both directed by the new administration and by the departments communication team for probably being against policy. Not very enlightening, but if it's back up it would seem to be internal to the department and not Trump jumping down their throats. Unclear from the source though.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2017, 02:13:21 PM by Metric Mouse »
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1190 on: January 21, 2017, 02:11:29 PM »
In less than 30 minutes both the White House Climate Change webpage and Department of Laborís report on Advancing LGBT Workplace Rights has been taken down.


https://www.whitehouse.gov/energy/climate-change

"Sound energy policy begins with the recognition that we have vast untapped domestic energy reserves right here in America. The Trump Administration will embrace the shale oil and gas revolution to bring jobs and prosperity to millions of Americans. We must take advantage of the estimated $50 trillion in untapped shale, oil, and natural gas reserves, especially those on federal lands that the American people own. We will use the revenues from energy production to rebuild our roads, schools, bridges and public infrastructure. Less expensive energy will be a big boost to American agriculture, as well."

THis on the new White House website.

so it begins, we're all screwed.

I am pretty scared about many of the predictions for our future under Trump, but am aware that much legislation can be redone over time and the people will heal. I read the full Republican Party Platform and asked anybody thinking of voting for Trump/Pence to read it before voting. The Platform was loaded with extreme Right Wing Tea Party ideas that I know most Republicans do not agree with.  Using federal land for mining was in the platform, which sounded crazy at the time. I think 90% of Americans agree that using Federal Lands for any type of mining is not in the best interest of the country. I can't even believe we are going to have to defend America's greatest treasures. It's a complete disaster! Mining the Grand Canyon, Yellowstone, Yosmite......... Tears!!!!!!! Many, many tears! Mining cannot be undone. There is just so much to protest.

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1191 on: January 21, 2017, 02:16:19 PM »
In less than 30 minutes both the White House Climate Change webpage and Department of Laborís report on Advancing LGBT Workplace Rights has been taken down.


https://www.whitehouse.gov/energy/climate-change

"Sound energy policy begins with the recognition that we have vast untapped domestic energy reserves right here in America. The Trump Administration will embrace the shale oil and gas revolution to bring jobs and prosperity to millions of Americans. We must take advantage of the estimated $50 trillion in untapped shale, oil, and natural gas reserves, especially those on federal lands that the American people own. We will use the revenues from energy production to rebuild our roads, schools, bridges and public infrastructure. Less expensive energy will be a big boost to American agriculture, as well."

THis on the new White House website.

so it begins, we're all screwed.

I am pretty scared about many of the predictions for our future under Trump, but am aware that much legislation can be redone over time and the people will heal. I read the full Republican Party Platform and asked anybody thinking of voting for Trump/Pence to read it before voting. The Platform was loaded with extreme Right Wing Tea Party ideas that I know most Republicans do not agree with.  Using federal land for mining was in the platform, which sounded crazy at the time. I think 90% of Americans agree that using Federal Lands for any type of mining is not in the best interest of the country. I can't even believe we are going to have to defend America's greatest treasures. It's a complete disaster! Mining the Grand Canyon, Yellowstone, Yosmite......... Tears!!!!!!! Many, many tears! Mining cannot be undone. There is just so much to protest.

Do you even have any idea how much federal land is leased for mining purposes currently? I mean, this is not new, or strange or nearly as disastrous as you are implying.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1192 on: January 21, 2017, 03:03:47 PM »
Quote
How'd that work out for agw? Still happening? Still getting worse every day? Still no real plans to head off the worst of the effects? Let me know when that changes.

I mean, if people want to think that driving an electric car made from precious metals mined halfway around the world and formed from processed  petroleum products or that eating more vegetables is going to save lives or mitigate the effects of climate change for the poorest people on the planet, they are welcome to. They are wrong, but welcome to think whatever they want. If they are doing it to feel better about themselves while effecting zero real change, that's cool too: just be informed and honest about it.

I see the current president is not the only one skilled in gas-lighting.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1193 on: January 21, 2017, 03:06:35 PM »
Quote
How'd that work out for agw? Still happening? Still getting worse every day? Still no real plans to head off the worst of the effects? Let me know when that changes.

I mean, if people want to think that driving an electric car made from precious metals mined halfway around the world and formed from processed  petroleum products or that eating more vegetables is going to save lives or mitigate the effects of climate change for the poorest people on the planet, they are welcome to. They are wrong, but welcome to think whatever they want. If they are doing it to feel better about themselves while effecting zero real change, that's cool too: just be informed and honest about it.

I see the current president is not the only one skilled in gas-lighting.

Do you have data that contradicts the currently understood  effects of global warming? If you do, I would love to see it.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1194 on: January 21, 2017, 04:11:14 PM »
Quote
How'd that work out for agw? Still happening? Still getting worse every day? Still no real plans to head off the worst of the effects? Let me know when that changes.

I mean, if people want to think that driving an electric car made from precious metals mined halfway around the world and formed from processed  petroleum products or that eating more vegetables is going to save lives or mitigate the effects of climate change for the poorest people on the planet, they are welcome to. They are wrong, but welcome to think whatever they want. If they are doing it to feel better about themselves while effecting zero real change, that's cool too: just be informed and honest about it.

I see the current president is not the only one skilled in gas-lighting.

Do you have data that contradicts the currently understood  effects of global warming? If you do, I would love to see it.

What's that got to do with the price of tea in China?

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1195 on: January 21, 2017, 04:17:01 PM »
Quote
How'd that work out for agw? Still happening? Still getting worse every day? Still no real plans to head off the worst of the effects? Let me know when that changes.

I mean, if people want to think that driving an electric car made from precious metals mined halfway around the world and formed from processed  petroleum products or that eating more vegetables is going to save lives or mitigate the effects of climate change for the poorest people on the planet, they are welcome to. They are wrong, but welcome to think whatever they want. If they are doing it to feel better about themselves while effecting zero real change, that's cool too: just be informed and honest about it.

I see the current president is not the only one skilled in gas-lighting.

Do you have data that contradicts the currently understood  effects of global warming? If you do, I would love to see it.

What's that got to do with the price of tea in China?
Well there is this...
Early research indicates that tea growing regions could decline in some parts of the world by up to 40-55 percent in the coming decades and the qualities, particularly for high end teas, could also change.

Quote
Early research indicates that tea growing regions could decline in some parts of the world by up to 40-55 percent in the coming decades and the qualities, particularly for high end teas, could also change.

...perhaps I am not supposed to be so literal?
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1196 on: January 21, 2017, 04:23:02 PM »
Quote
How'd that work out for agw? Still happening? Still getting worse every day? Still no real plans to head off the worst of the effects? Let me know when that changes.

I mean, if people want to think that driving an electric car made from precious metals mined halfway around the world and formed from processed  petroleum products or that eating more vegetables is going to save lives or mitigate the effects of climate change for the poorest people on the planet, they are welcome to. They are wrong, but welcome to think whatever they want. If they are doing it to feel better about themselves while effecting zero real change, that's cool too: just be informed and honest about it.

I see the current president is not the only one skilled in gas-lighting.

Do you have data that contradicts the currently understood  effects of global warming? If you do, I would love to see it.

What's that got to do with the price of tea in China?
Well there is this...
Early research indicates that tea growing regions could decline in some parts of the world by up to 40-55 percent in the coming decades and the qualities, particularly for high end teas, could also change.

Quote
Early research indicates that tea growing regions could decline in some parts of the world by up to 40-55 percent in the coming decades and the qualities, particularly for high end teas, could also change.

...perhaps I am not supposed to be so literal?

Yeah, but Metric Mouse was suggesting...eh, nm. Trying to follow the quotes is too confusing.

nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1197 on: January 21, 2017, 04:32:58 PM »
Sorry, i couldn't resist taking that cliche to it's literal conclusion :-)
Apologies for the derailment.
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Lagom

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1198 on: January 21, 2017, 04:59:10 PM »
The lies are getting even sillier by the day:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-accuses-media-of-lying-about-inauguration-crowds/ar-AAm5Zn0?li=BBnb7Kz

And msn leans right. The best excuse I saw in the comments was "lots of people had to work!"

SAD! ;p

sol

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1199 on: January 21, 2017, 05:03:48 PM »
Isn't this just the same thing he did all through the campaign?

OF COURSE he says the media is lying.  We should all just get used to listening to Trump speak with the clear understanding that he's saying what he wants to be true, not what is actually true. 

And there will be more punitive action, of course.  He's already saying that news outlets that posted any pictures of the inauguration crowd will pay a "big price" for their "dishonesty".  Is this how the erosion of the free press starts?  With retribution for posting photographs of things that actually happened?
« Last Edit: January 21, 2017, 05:12:45 PM by sol »