Author Topic: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?  (Read 497913 times)

golden1

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1050 on: January 18, 2017, 12:07:07 PM »
I'm close to that point as well.  If they weren't so bound and determined to drag us all down with them I would be totally done.  The cabinet position hearings are like a who's who of incompetence, corruption and dismantling of the government. 

sol

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1051 on: January 18, 2017, 12:18:03 PM »
America has survived previous episodes of corrupt and incompetent leadership precisely because people like you did NOT disengage from public life.  We'll muddle through for a few years, then we'll slowly get back on track just like we always have before.

Progress is a slow march.  Sometimes we take a few steps back before we realize we're going in the wrong direction.  Eventually we'll abandon the march completely, but not until people like you refuse to participate in finding the right direction. 

So maybe don't give up on us quite yet?

Lagom

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1052 on: January 18, 2017, 12:20:21 PM »
I'm close to that point as well.  If they weren't so bound and determined to drag us all down with them I would be totally done.  The cabinet position hearings are like a who's who of incompetence, corruption and dismantling of the government.

Yes, part of the problem is we have things like anti-vaxxers and climate change deniers now in charge. Those are topics where moronic policy shifts can still have an impact even on us rich folks, alas.

Malaysia41

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1053 on: January 18, 2017, 12:23:24 PM »
I'm close to that point as well.  If they weren't so bound and determined to drag us all down with them I would be totally done.  The cabinet position hearings are like a who's who of incompetence, corruption and dismantling of the government.

Yep - if it wasn't for global warming, I'd probably be able to step back and laugh. Move money overseas, sit back and muah ah ah ah.

But I have kids. And I want them to have a habitable planet.

One aunt of mine spewed venom at me via email - calling me the liberal elite. Whatever the hell that means. Thinking of her specifically, here are my answers to my three questions:

1) I would say she defines a liberal as someone who doesn't comprehend the infinite wisdom of the invisible hand of the free market. A liberal is someone who wants the government to take care of them so they can go be lazy on her hard-earned dime. An elitist liberal wants to raise her taxes so they can use them to control every aspect of her life such as whether she can say "Merry Christmas." And a liberal is a snooty elite who looks down their nose at the working class.

2) The liberal's end game is straight up godless communism, where 'every behavior is okay' (for liberals) but somehow still saying "Merry Christmas" is banned. Yeah - it doesn't really compute, but that's what it is.

3) What led them to this conclusion? Multiple parts.
 - Ayn Rand
 - The Republican Noise Machine that tells them that the (largely truthful) media is liberal*, the liberal elites want to make their lives awful, the liberal healthcare policies will impose death panels that will kill your dear aging parents, etc etc etc.
 - A mental framework that, when presented with scary things, embraces an authoritarian father nation-as-family model (versus a nurturant parent model) (which is why the GOP / Fox beats the 'world is scary' drum so much)
 - A chip on their shoulder (missed opportunities / grass greener on TV / IDK)

*unfortunately - this accusation baited the mainstream media into trying to demonstrate no bias - they stopped reporting truth and moved to reporting 'balance'. IMO this shift was what Trump easily tapped into - people had been fed so much crazy, he just had to waft the flames in his direction.
 
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 12:25:59 PM by Malaysia41 »

nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1054 on: January 18, 2017, 12:29:02 PM »
I'm done caring. If poor white trash want to vote me a tax cut, bring it on. I've spent too much time trying to use logic to get these folks to *raise* my taxes so their kids don't grow up malnourished and uneducated. It doesn't work. Screw it.

Idiots.

-W
I feel like this could be the biggest con (in a long line of cons) against poor and rural citizens.  DJT's goals include reducing taxes on the wealthy, eliminating the estate tax (which only benefits the wealth), reducing corporate taxes and cutting out environmental protections.  At the same time the GOP wants to get rid of health care subsidies and reduce benefit programs.
Everywhere I look it seems good for rich people and bad for poor rural people.

Malaysia41

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1055 on: January 18, 2017, 12:30:18 PM »
I'm done caring. If poor white trash want to vote me a tax cut, bring it on. I've spent too much time trying to use logic to get these folks to *raise* my taxes so their kids don't grow up malnourished and uneducated. It doesn't work. Screw it.

Idiots.

-W
I feel like this could be the biggest con (in a long line of cons) against poor and rural citizens.  DJT's goals include reducing taxes on the wealthy, eliminating the estate tax (which only benefits the wealth), reducing corporate taxes and cutting out environmental protections.  At the same time the GOP wants to get rid of health care subsidies and reduce benefit programs.
Everywhere I look it seems good for rich people and bad for poor rural people.

Yep. That's the goal of the Republican Noise Machine. Dupe voters into supporting policies that create dynasties.

bacchi

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1056 on: January 18, 2017, 12:36:01 PM »
1) I would say she defines a liberal as someone who doesn't comprehend the infinite wisdom of the invisible hand of the free market. A liberal is someone who wants the government to take care of them so they can go be lazy on her hard-earned dime.

If we followed that to its logical end, we'd take all the money that California, New York, and Illinois give to the southern states and they could become even shittier in terms of education and health. Fuck 'em.

Quote
3) What led them to this conclusion? Multiple parts.
 - Ayn Rand

Ayn Rand definitely appeals to invincible young turks who were born on 3rd base...

Quote
- A chip on their shoulder (missed opportunities / grass greener on TV / IDK)

Education and job training would go a long way to fixing this. Getting the Republicans in Congress to fund job training would probably be impossible.

Malloy

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1057 on: January 18, 2017, 12:59:08 PM »
I'm done caring. If poor white trash want to vote me a tax cut, bring it on. I've spent too much time trying to use logic to get these folks to *raise* my taxes so their kids don't grow up malnourished and uneducated. It doesn't work. Screw it.

Idiots.

-W

Someone on this board said something that I think summed it up so well.  There are haves, have-a-littles, and have-nots.  Most of us on this board who think we don't need a tax cut are have-a-littles.  We are white collar professionals who make enough to qualify at the very lowest end for Republican tax cuts. However, our downside in Republican administrations is potentially quite high, because we don't have enough in savings to self-insure if the ACA goes away.

The haves, true multi-millionaires, stand to gain quite a bit more through tax cuts and the elimination of the estate tax and are largely shielded from insurance down sides if there is no ACA.  Plus, their income is mostly via investments and not W-2 wages.

The have-nots don't make enough to benefit either way, but they won't listen to have-a-littles like us when we explain that to them.   

SisterX

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1058 on: January 18, 2017, 01:37:40 PM »
The have-nots don't make enough to benefit either way, but they won't listen to have-a-littles like us when we explain that to them.

We're not "great at business" like that guy who went bankrupt six times.

Sol - your point about climate change was exactly how I feel about the issue, but much more eloquently stated. There's no down side! Why the fuck can't people see that?

Even more than people who deny it, though, I'm annoyed by the people who will give lip service to "concern" about the environment and don't do shit to help. Yeah, sure, I believe you care about the environment with your giant-ass SUV to carry around just yourself just as much as I believe someone's a Christian while actively despising poor people and ignoring what their Man-God actually said. Those people? They deserve to have every bad thing they get in life.

wenchsenior

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1059 on: January 18, 2017, 01:42:14 PM »
I'm done caring. If poor white trash want to vote me a tax cut, bring it on. I've spent too much time trying to use logic to get these folks to *raise* my taxes so their kids don't grow up malnourished and uneducated. It doesn't work. Screw it.

Idiots.

-W

This is exactly how I feel. As does my husband, who grew up poor and rural, pulled himself up by the bootstraps with no help, proudly served in the military, and then served as a border patrol agent in the field, before putting himself through college and getting the first PhD in his extended family.  At this point his attitude is that he's sorry he ever bothered to put himself in danger in defense of his family or the huge segment of the population that are anti-science, anti-fact, and downright self-destructive lunatics.

sol

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1060 on: January 18, 2017, 01:47:13 PM »
Those people? They deserve to have every bad thing they get in life.

I'm not so sure.  One of the defining characteristics of the progressive agenda is a concern for the well-being of all people, even the illiterate, the deceived, and the actively counter productive ones who fight against society's welfare.

Everyone's children are equally deserving of inheriting a planet that is at least as amazing as the one we inherited, regardless of their political beliefs or the destruction they have caused.  If we all just think a little bigger, maybe we can get past this us vs them mentality and realize we all live here together.

Malaysia41

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1061 on: January 18, 2017, 01:53:59 PM »
Those people? They deserve to have every bad thing they get in life.

I'm not so sure.  One of the defining characteristics of the progressive agenda is a concern for the well-being of all people, even the illiterate, the deceived, and the actively counter productive ones who fight against society's welfare.

Everyone's children are equally deserving of inheriting a planet that is at least as amazing as the one we inherited, regardless of their political beliefs or the destruction they have caused.  If we all just think a little bigger, maybe we can get past this us vs them mentality and realize we all live here together.

I agree. I'm working on talking with the Trumpsters in my family - using language that resonates with them, even if that language makes me nauseous (e.g. 'patriotic' and 'unamerican'). I've been trying to establish common ground with them.  For example: I had a whole email exchange with that rabid aunt. I made a case about fighting against Civil Asset Forfeiture. She came around to saying that it sounds like it incentivizes cops to be criminals.

It's slow going, and who knows if it'll change anything. But I'm trying. One conversation at a time.

At the winter break I voice recorded a bunch of conversations with Trumpsters. I may write it up. Right now I'm still too angry to do anything with that material. Probably I will feel that way for another, oh ... four years or so. But I was thinking of writing something up - something that a Trumpster could read and possibly take a few steps toward our side. Thinking about it. For now, it's email exchanges with my elite-liberal-hating aunt.


deadlymonkey

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1062 on: January 19, 2017, 08:31:28 AM »
BTW, Trump gets his nuclear briefing today or tomorrow morning about how to order a nuclear strike. 

Fortunately Mattis is a good guy and would refuse to transmit any orders that are stupid.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1063 on: January 19, 2017, 08:39:26 AM »
BTW, Trump gets his nuclear briefing today or tomorrow morning about how to order a nuclear strike. 

Fortunately Mattis is a good guy and would refuse to transmit any orders that are stupid.

I didn't think nuclear strike had any intermediaries (short of the officer carrying the football flat out refusing to cooperate)?

deadlymonkey

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1064 on: January 19, 2017, 08:49:29 AM »
BTW, Trump gets his nuclear briefing today or tomorrow morning about how to order a nuclear strike. 

Fortunately Mattis is a good guy and would refuse to transmit any orders that are stupid.

I didn't think nuclear strike had any intermediaries (short of the officer carrying the football flat out refusing to cooperate)?

The SECDEF is really the only intermediary.  There are lots of pages that describe the notional process since I think the official process is probably classified, but the President does not talk directly to the launch facilities.  There is no official approval process but intermediaries can refuse to transmit the orders.

nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1065 on: January 19, 2017, 08:50:13 AM »
Those people? They deserve to have every bad thing they get in life.

I'm not so sure.  One of the defining characteristics of the progressive agenda is a concern for the well-being of all people, even the illiterate, the deceived, and the actively counter productive ones who fight against society's welfare.

Everyone's children are equally deserving of inheriting a planet that is at least as amazing as the one we inherited, regardless of their political beliefs or the destruction they have caused.  If we all just think a little bigger, maybe we can get past this us vs them mentality and realize we all live here together.

I agree. I'm working on talking with the Trumpsters in my family - using language that resonates with them, even if that language makes me nauseous (e.g. 'patriotic' and 'unamerican'). I've been trying to establish common ground with them.  For example: I had a whole email exchange with that rabid aunt. I made a case about fighting against Civil Asset Forfeiture. She came around to saying that it sounds like it incentivizes cops to be criminals.

It's slow going, and who knows if it'll change anything. But I'm trying. One conversation at a time.

At the winter break I voice recorded a bunch of conversations with Trumpsters. I may write it up. Right now I'm still too angry to do anything with that material. Probably I will feel that way for another, oh ... four years or so. But I was thinking of writing something up - something that a Trumpster could read and possibly take a few steps toward our side. Thinking about it. For now, it's email exchanges with my elite-liberal-hating aunt.

Not too long ago I was at a scientific conference, and there was a workshop about how to more effectively communicate with the broader public.  Since this was shortly after the US election there was a lot of focus on how to bridge the gap.

One of the core messages was making a connection that initially avoids 'trigger' concepts but that everyone can make both an emotional as well as an intellectual connection to.  For example, if I were to explain my latest research as "looking at the effects of climate change on invertebrate populations, and how current and proposed fisheries policies might affect them"  - I've lost many red hat people because they'll automatically reject what I'm doing.  Instead I could simply start by saying that my work centers around "how do we protect our valuable seafood industry in New England".  People inherently want to protect things, but are less likely to support having policies ("regulations") or admit that we may have caused this change.
Etc. etc

The bottom line I've taken from this is that there's still a lot of common ground, but we're surrounded by a field of verbal land-mines. I can (and should) be sensitive to their concerns while still finding what common ground we share. I'm currently doing exactly this, as I"m working with five different groups ("shareholders") trying to build a project that will benefit everyone in some way yet involves aspects that each group isn't too keen on.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1066 on: January 19, 2017, 08:55:21 AM »
BTW, Trump gets his nuclear briefing today or tomorrow morning about how to order a nuclear strike. 

Fortunately Mattis is a good guy and would refuse to transmit any orders that are stupid.

I didn't think nuclear strike had any intermediaries (short of the officer carrying the football flat out refusing to cooperate)?

The SECDEF is really the only intermediary.  There are lots of pages that describe the notional process since I think the official process is probably classified, but the President does not talk directly to the launch facilities.  There is no official approval process but intermediaries can refuse to transmit the orders.

I think that's kind of what I'm saying, aside from whether or not Secretary of Defense is involved. That was the whole thing a while back about the personnel responsible for literally pressing the launch button on the sub/silo/bomber, and whether or not they would go through with it based on the fact that it came from Trump. The way the articles I saw portrayed it, was that mutiny was basically the only safeguard in the case of a nuclear order from the President.

deadlymonkey

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1067 on: January 19, 2017, 09:00:11 AM »
BTW, Trump gets his nuclear briefing today or tomorrow morning about how to order a nuclear strike. 

Fortunately Mattis is a good guy and would refuse to transmit any orders that are stupid.

I didn't think nuclear strike had any intermediaries (short of the officer carrying the football flat out refusing to cooperate)?

The SECDEF is really the only intermediary.  There are lots of pages that describe the notional process since I think the official process is probably classified, but the President does not talk directly to the launch facilities.  There is no official approval process but intermediaries can refuse to transmit the orders.

I think that's kind of what I'm saying, aside from whether or not Secretary of Defense is involved. That was the whole thing a while back about the personnel responsible for literally pressing the launch button on the sub/silo/bomber, and whether or not they would go through with it based on the fact that it came from Trump. The way the articles I saw portrayed it, was that mutiny was basically the only safeguard in the case of a nuclear order from the President.

Yeah the way the system is designed, you need to be able to respond to a Soviet launch in under 10 minutes there is not time for committees or approvals.  I would think/hope that a much more significant portion of the people involved would mutiny rather than obey in the event of a first strike situation rather than a response, sure silo operators might not know the difference but all the associated people in the pentagon would.

golden1

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1068 on: January 19, 2017, 09:07:08 AM »
Quote
One of the core messages was making a connection that initially avoids 'trigger' concepts but that everyone can make both an emotional as well as an intellectual connection to.  For example, if I were to explain my latest research as "looking at the effects of climate change on invertebrate populations, and how current and proposed fisheries policies might affect them"  - I've lost many red hat people because they'll automatically reject what I'm doing.  Instead I could simply start by saying that my work centers around "how do we protect our valuable seafood industry in New England".  People inherently want to protect things, but are less likely to support having policies ("regulations") or admit that we may have caused this change.
Etc. etc

Yep, at this point, a lot of language is politicized, so when I talk to my conservative friends and relatives about environmental issues, I stay away from "global warming", "climate change" or even the word "environment".  I talk about how we should not be wasteful, and not pollute the water or air, and most people are on board.  People are weird. 

deadlymonkey

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1069 on: January 19, 2017, 09:10:08 AM »
Quote
One of the core messages was making a connection that initially avoids 'trigger' concepts but that everyone can make both an emotional as well as an intellectual connection to.  For example, if I were to explain my latest research as "looking at the effects of climate change on invertebrate populations, and how current and proposed fisheries policies might affect them"  - I've lost many red hat people because they'll automatically reject what I'm doing.  Instead I could simply start by saying that my work centers around "how do we protect our valuable seafood industry in New England".  People inherently want to protect things, but are less likely to support having policies ("regulations") or admit that we may have caused this change.
Etc. etc

Yep, at this point, a lot of language is politicized, so when I talk to my conservative friends and relatives about environmental issues, I stay away from "global warming", "climate change" or even the word "environment".  I talk about how we should not be wasteful, and not pollute the water or air, and most people are on board.  People are weird.

I think that funny that people often associate liberals with "trigger words" but it is true on both sides. 

"I agree that we should not drink poisoned water."
"Maybe we should have a regulation saying you can't poison drinking water?"
"AHHH trigger, no regulations!!!!"

nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1070 on: January 19, 2017, 09:14:21 AM »


THis was first published two decades ago.
Side note:  Really miss Watterson's C&H.

deadlymonkey

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1071 on: January 19, 2017, 09:20:20 AM »
sigh, C&H best comic ever, followed closely by the Far Side.

Gondolin

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1072 on: January 19, 2017, 09:39:53 AM »
Quote
THis was first published two decades ago.

And this is why Bill Watterson became a hermit.

dragoncar

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1073 on: January 19, 2017, 10:22:18 AM »
BTW, Trump gets his nuclear briefing today or tomorrow morning about how to order a nuclear strike. 

Fortunately Mattis is a good guy and would refuse to transmit any orders that are stupid.

I didn't think nuclear strike had any intermediaries (short of the officer carrying the football flat out refusing to cooperate)?

The SECDEF is really the only intermediary.  There are lots of pages that describe the notional process since I think the official process is probably classified, but the President does not talk directly to the launch facilities.  There is no official approval process but intermediaries can refuse to transmit the orders.

I think that's kind of what I'm saying, aside from whether or not Secretary of Defense is involved. That was the whole thing a while back about the personnel responsible for literally pressing the launch button on the sub/silo/bomber, and whether or not they would go through with it based on the fact that it came from Trump. The way the articles I saw portrayed it, was that mutiny was basically the only safeguard in the case of a nuclear order from the President.

Humans are fallible.  We must upgrade to the WOPR

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReJ3RltihME

SisterX

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1074 on: January 19, 2017, 10:35:41 AM »
Those people? They deserve to have every bad thing they get in life.

I'm not so sure.  One of the defining characteristics of the progressive agenda is a concern for the well-being of all people, even the illiterate, the deceived, and the actively counter productive ones who fight against society's welfare.

Everyone's children are equally deserving of inheriting a planet that is at least as amazing as the one we inherited, regardless of their political beliefs or the destruction they have caused.  If we all just think a little bigger, maybe we can get past this us vs them mentality and realize we all live here together.

Ah, apparently I accidentally deleted (along with a more general, angrier, and downright unfair statement) that our, the world's, children deserve better than to have people like that in charge. I just meant that those particular people who espouse such ideals and do jack shit to change things, or make the world better, deserve to lead sad, miserable little lives. And I hope their kids learn from their mistakes. (I hope my kid learns from my mistakes, too, so I'm not holding myself blameless by any means, I just try harder than some people to be less of a hypocrite.)

Yes, I'm concerned about the welfare of all people in a broad sense. However, I am most concerned about those less able to make and influence decisions. Those who can do something to make the world better and choose not to are bastards. Those who think of dolla bills as the bottom line, rather than the much more important issues such as keeping the planet habitable, are putting greed ahead of everything truly important. Fuck that attitude.

Malaysia - Good for you, trying to change minds. I'm still too angry at this point. Reading the book "Collapse" by Jared Diamond hasn't helped, because I see so many parallels between past societies screwing themselves over and current global trends. Figuring out how to change those trends, influence things for the better, is my current self-project. And your way (talking to people) is probably the only real way to do it, so I need to keep that in mind. :)

jeninco

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1075 on: January 19, 2017, 01:40:42 PM »
Those people? They deserve to have every bad thing they get in life.

I'm not so sure.  One of the defining characteristics of the progressive agenda is a concern for the well-being of all people, even the illiterate, the deceived, and the actively counter productive ones who fight against society's welfare.

Everyone's children are equally deserving of inheriting a planet that is at least as amazing as the one we inherited, regardless of their political beliefs or the destruction they have caused.  If we all just think a little bigger, maybe we can get past this us vs them mentality and realize we all live here together.

Well, shit. I've spent the last 2 1/2 months basically thinking (when I can think about it) "f*ck you right back, and the horse you rode in on, too.  Hope you enjoy spending the next 4 years watching your relatives die of untreated opioid addictions and other curable maladies, and your children remain uneducated and unemployable because 'local control' of schools means no real science and not much history, and no economically healthy potential employer would choose to hire ignorant employees. Maybe Walmart will add medical insurance for employees!"   

Sol's framing here is the first angle on this sh**storm that feels helpful and constructive. (Granted, I live in a pretty hippy-dippy place, so the conversations tend to go "we just need to understaaaand where they're coming from" followed by me thinking "um, nope. Ignorant sexist bigots, clutching their bibles. Don't need to "understand" squat." Interpersonal bullshit is not really my thing.

Thanks, Sol. I'll try to keep that in mind for the next few months/years.
(Man, I sound like a total grouch: helping kids with math is  my thing, and I volunteer to do lots of that. And I do some medical volunteering as a ski patroller. I just have no patience for pussyfooting around with adults who should be able to think rationally, but somehow can't be bothered to. My goal for the next four years: more kids finishing high school with an understanding of basic statistics!)

accolay

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1076 on: January 19, 2017, 06:25:00 PM »
Quote
One of the core messages was making a connection that initially avoids 'trigger' concepts but that everyone can make both an emotional as well as an intellectual connection to.  For example, if I were to explain my latest research as "looking at the effects of climate change on invertebrate populations, and how current and proposed fisheries policies might affect them"  - I've lost many red hat people because they'll automatically reject what I'm doing.  Instead I could simply start by saying that my work centers around "how do we protect our valuable seafood industry in New England".  People inherently want to protect things, but are less likely to support having policies ("regulations") or admit that we may have caused this change.
Etc. etc

Yep, at this point, a lot of language is politicized, so when I talk to my conservative friends and relatives about environmental issues, I stay away from "global warming", "climate change" or even the word "environment".  I talk about how we should not be wasteful, and not pollute the water or air, and most people are on board.  People are weird.

I think that funny that people often associate liberals with "trigger words" but it is true on both sides. 

"I agree that we should not drink poisoned water."
"Maybe we should have a regulation saying you can't poison drinking water?"
"AHHH trigger, no regulations!!!!"

Totally agree.

Obamacare = hate
ACA = love

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6m7pWEMPlA

Malaysia41

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1077 on: January 19, 2017, 10:54:10 PM »
If you read anything by George Lakoff, you understand why trigger words work on both, and why for the past 4 decades - trigger language has been used to great effect by the GOP and little effect by the DNC. 

The GOP - who had the benefit of insightful business marketers - put this framing language to use many decades earlier than the DNC. Coupled with the end of the Fairness Doctrine and Telecommunications act of 1996, our largely objective media got baited into using this GOP crafted trigger language. ... and the country swung GOP - hard. Read up on Frank Luntz, for example, and you'll see what I mean about language.   

tax 'relief' instead of tax 'policy'  *trigger!* ("it's an affliction brought on by evil government." (never mind that the gov't is formed by people who are democratically elected)
gun control instead of gun policy *trigger!* ("they're trying to take our guns!" (even tho they've never said that))
death tax instead of estate tax *trigger!* ("I'm taxed my whole life and then the gubmint takes more when I die? I'm outraged!!!" (never mind that an estate tax is one of the most effective tools at preventing dynasties from forming - it should be called a dynasty prevention tax).

It works the other way too. You may recognize heavy use of these: 
Freedom fries
War on Christmas
Patriotic Hero
unAmerican
etc. etc etc.

All I can say is don't take the bait. Use honest (mainly progressive IMO) language instead. "Protect rights." "Opportunity for all." "Injustice"  "Violation of our constitutional rights" (e.g. with civil asset forfeiture).

It's hard work putting thought into EVERY frigging WORD. I mean, it's always been worth doing, but today, some phrases are landmines, still others are like heroin hitting the blood stream. So at this point, you really HAVE to think about every word, and use the right ones. Now more than ever. 

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1078 on: January 19, 2017, 11:32:50 PM »
The have-nots don't make enough to benefit either way, but they won't listen to have-a-littles like us when we explain that to them.

We're not "great at business" like that guy who went bankrupt six times.

Sol - your point about climate change was exactly how I feel about the issue, but much more eloquently stated. There's no down side! Why the fuck can't people see that?

Even more than people who deny it, though, I'm annoyed by the people who will give lip service to "concern" about the environment and don't do shit to help. Yeah, sure, I believe you care about the environment with your giant-ass SUV to carry around just yourself just as much as I believe someone's a Christian while actively despising poor people and ignoring what their Man-God actually said. Those people? They deserve to have every bad thing they get in life.

Wouldn't this be everyone in developed countries? I mean, I see very few people give up their car, walk everywhere, stop buying anything produced or transported or powered by fossil fuels, switch to renewable power and make sure to offset the footprint of the production and transportation of that power generation with carbon sinks. Or just DOING WITHOUT. I mean... literally no one is doing these things.  Everyone is paying lip service to climate change while actively destroying the planet. I mean, at this point it doesn't matter and everyone is screwed no matter what, so to rag on some people because they drive an SUV is pretty lame - we are all just as guilty as they are, perhaps even more so if we know what we are doing is leading directly to the death and disaster of millions of people, but we just can't stop eating food from half way across the country or using energy to power our laptop to post about how green everyone else should be.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1079 on: January 20, 2017, 12:22:30 AM »
Yeah, very frustrating.

Typical liberals acknowledge the problem, but then have ridiculously ineffective solutions in mind.

Typical conservatives refuse to admit there's a problem at all.

IMO Elon Musk will be spraying the upper atmosphere to cool the planet eventually, because nobody has their shit together. Rich people will just take it on themselves - they have kids too, and sooner or later the problem will get really clear to everyone.

-W

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1080 on: January 20, 2017, 12:34:49 AM »
Yeah, very frustrating.

Typical liberals acknowledge the problem, but then have ridiculously ineffective solutions in mind.

Typical conservatives refuse to admit there's a problem at all.

IMO Elon Musk will be spraying the upper atmosphere to cool the planet eventually, because nobody has their shit together. Rich people will just take it on themselves - they have kids too, and sooner or later the problem will get really clear to everyone.

-W

At some point it'll have to tackled, and then it will be. I wouldn't mind if Elon or some other batman like figure just solved it for everyone though - of course it would give all the AGW deniers such fits "See, wasn't a problem anyway!"  But I'd take that easily over the alternative...

accolay

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1081 on: January 20, 2017, 03:49:08 AM »
IMO Elon Musk will be spraying the upper atmosphere to cool the planet eventually, because nobody has their shit together.

Saw that in Snowpiercer. Didn't work out too well for them.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1082 on: January 20, 2017, 06:18:55 AM »
IMO Elon Musk will be spraying the upper atmosphere to cool the planet eventually, because nobody has their shit together.

Saw that in Snowpiercer. Didn't work out too well for them.

Why are documentaries so scary these days?

;-)

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1083 on: January 20, 2017, 06:31:50 AM »
The have-nots don't make enough to benefit either way, but they won't listen to have-a-littles like us when we explain that to them.

We're not "great at business" like that guy who went bankrupt six times.

Sol - your point about climate change was exactly how I feel about the issue, but much more eloquently stated. There's no down side! Why the fuck can't people see that?

Even more than people who deny it, though, I'm annoyed by the people who will give lip service to "concern" about the environment and don't do shit to help. Yeah, sure, I believe you care about the environment with your giant-ass SUV to carry around just yourself just as much as I believe someone's a Christian while actively despising poor people and ignoring what their Man-God actually said. Those people? They deserve to have every bad thing they get in life.

Wouldn't this be everyone in developed countries? I mean, I see very few people give up their car, walk everywhere, stop buying anything produced or transported or powered by fossil fuels, switch to renewable power and make sure to offset the footprint of the production and transportation of that power generation with carbon sinks. Or just DOING WITHOUT. I mean... literally no one is doing these things.  Everyone is paying lip service to climate change while actively destroying the planet. I mean, at this point it doesn't matter and everyone is screwed no matter what, so to rag on some people because they drive an SUV is pretty lame - we are all just as guilty as they are, perhaps even more so if we know what we are doing is leading directly to the death and disaster of millions of people, but we just can't stop eating food from half way across the country or using energy to power our laptop to post about how green everyone else should be.

Perhaps I simply see a different subset of the population, but I disagree that "literally no one is doing [things to help the planet]". I'm encouraged by the shift in public perception at the local level that yes, climate change is serious problem. I've been absolutely astounded at the number of homes with residential photo-voltaics on their roofs, and conversations with many people who have installed them suggest that their motives were at least partly driven by a desire for cleaner energy. We're still a car-crazy country, but its importance has started to wane with total # of miles driven declining.  Volts and Leafs are popping up everywhere, as are EV charging stations (my tiny ass library has two!). I'm seeing a lot more LEEDs-certified buildings pop up, and based on the most recent one by me there's genuine interest in expanding this trend.

It isn't enough, and it certainly doesn't extend to everyone, but I firmly believe that there's been a sea-change in the last decade where the perception of living a "green" lifestyle has gone from "extreme-hippie-wacko" to something both desirable and obtainable.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1084 on: January 20, 2017, 07:42:51 AM »
The have-nots don't make enough to benefit either way, but they won't listen to have-a-littles like us when we explain that to them.

We're not "great at business" like that guy who went bankrupt six times.

Sol - your point about climate change was exactly how I feel about the issue, but much more eloquently stated. There's no down side! Why the fuck can't people see that?

Even more than people who deny it, though, I'm annoyed by the people who will give lip service to "concern" about the environment and don't do shit to help. Yeah, sure, I believe you care about the environment with your giant-ass SUV to carry around just yourself just as much as I believe someone's a Christian while actively despising poor people and ignoring what their Man-God actually said. Those people? They deserve to have every bad thing they get in life.

Wouldn't this be everyone in developed countries? I mean, I see very few people give up their car, walk everywhere, stop buying anything produced or transported or powered by fossil fuels, switch to renewable power and make sure to offset the footprint of the production and transportation of that power generation with carbon sinks. Or just DOING WITHOUT. I mean... literally no one is doing these things.  Everyone is paying lip service to climate change while actively destroying the planet. I mean, at this point it doesn't matter and everyone is screwed no matter what, so to rag on some people because they drive an SUV is pretty lame - we are all just as guilty as they are, perhaps even more so if we know what we are doing is leading directly to the death and disaster of millions of people, but we just can't stop eating food from half way across the country or using energy to power our laptop to post about how green everyone else should be.

Perhaps I simply see a different subset of the population, but I disagree that "literally no one is doing [things to help the planet]". I'm encouraged by the shift in public perception at the local level that yes, climate change is serious problem. I've been absolutely astounded at the number of homes with residential photo-voltaics on their roofs, and conversations with many people who have installed them suggest that their motives were at least partly driven by a desire for cleaner energy. We're still a car-crazy country, but its importance has started to wane with total # of miles driven declining.  Volts and Leafs are popping up everywhere, as are EV charging stations (my tiny ass library has two!). I'm seeing a lot more LEEDs-certified buildings pop up, and based on the most recent one by me there's genuine interest in expanding this trend.

It isn't enough, and it certainly doesn't extend to everyone, but I firmly believe that there's been a sea-change in the last decade where the perception of living a "green" lifestyle has gone from "extreme-hippie-wacko" to something both desirable and obtainable.

I suspect Canada is more progressive politically than the U.S., and certainly I think science and objective measurable data are held in higher regard there. Not so here, with our long and 'proud' history of anti-intellectualism.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1085 on: January 20, 2017, 07:55:47 AM »
I agree with Nereo that I see people (Americans in my case) making active choices for the environment. I know lots of people, in many different cities/states who are choosing to eat less meat, signing up for CSAs, forgoing air conditioning in the summer and biking/taking public transit to work. All for the environment.

One of my coworkers teaches a few adjunct classes for a local university's business program and his final project for one class was to have his students come up with an effective business that helps people offset their carbon.  One of the outcomes of his project was that several of us at the office ended up pooling funds to donate to a tree planting organization and we're just middle class business and engineering people (though some of us have hippy dippy leanings for sure).

People are thinking and taking action. Not enough yet, but I do agree there is a change happening.

Kris

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1086 on: January 20, 2017, 08:02:42 AM »
I also see people changing/modifying their actions because of climate change.

Then on the other side, there are people who are "rolling coal."

We can only hope that the ridiculous attitudes of the latter will change over time.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1087 on: January 20, 2017, 08:10:35 AM »
We did our part by not having kids.  More carbon saving than even the greenest of green can claim.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1088 on: January 20, 2017, 08:15:08 AM »
We did our part by not having kids.  More carbon saving than even the greenest of green can claim.

Me, too.

nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1089 on: January 20, 2017, 08:23:45 AM »
Quote
I suspect Canada is more progressive politically than the U.S., and certainly I think science and objective measurable data are held in higher regard there

I was speaking of the US actually, though I live in both countries.  Sadly I think Canada fell behind the US on the environmental front over the last decade, though that might change with the change in governments (though time will tell).

sol

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1090 on: January 20, 2017, 08:44:40 AM »
We did our part by not having kids.  More carbon saving than even the greenest of green can claim.

Me, too.

Isn't this the line of thinking that leads supervillains to try to wipe out humanity?

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1091 on: January 20, 2017, 08:47:42 AM »
Yes, but one of us breeders might make the scientist that creates a solution to mitigate climate change, so feel free to thank us now. 

Pooplips

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1092 on: January 20, 2017, 08:52:57 AM »
Perhaps I simply see a different subset of the population, but I disagree that "literally no one is doing [things to help the planet]". I'm encouraged by the shift in public perception at the local level that yes, climate change is serious problem. I've been absolutely astounded at the number of homes with residential photo-voltaics on their roofs, and conversations with many people who have installed them suggest that their motives were at least partly driven by a desire for cleaner energy. We're still a car-crazy country, but its importance has started to wane with total # of miles driven declining.  Volts and Leafs are popping up everywhere, as are EV charging stations (my tiny ass library has two!). I'm seeing a lot more LEEDs-certified buildings pop up, and based on the most recent one by me there's genuine interest in expanding this trend.

It isn't enough, and it certainly doesn't extend to everyone, but I firmly believe that there's been a sea-change in the last decade where the perception of living a "green" lifestyle has gone from "extreme-hippie-wacko" to something both desirable and obtainable.

That was the trend, but that trend has been reversing. http://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/updates/2017/01/17/vehicle-miles-traveled-another-look-at-our-evolving-behavior

I look at this a little different. I don't want to discount any form of energy: coal, oil, wind, solar, hydro, nuclear. One good thing I see happening is the fossil fuel industy is getting a ton of pressure to clean things up (generally speaking). If the industy is able to develope new tech that can cost effectivly scrub their stack air I don't see why we shouldn't use those sources of energy.

I don't want coal to be demonized simply because it's coal.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1093 on: January 20, 2017, 09:07:42 AM »
Perhaps I simply see a different subset of the population, but I disagree that "literally no one is doing [things to help the planet]". I'm encouraged by the shift in public perception at the local level that yes, climate change is serious problem. I've been absolutely astounded at the number of homes with residential photo-voltaics on their roofs, and conversations with many people who have installed them suggest that their motives were at least partly driven by a desire for cleaner energy. We're still a car-crazy country, but its importance has started to wane with total # of miles driven declining.  Volts and Leafs are popping up everywhere, as are EV charging stations (my tiny ass library has two!). I'm seeing a lot more LEEDs-certified buildings pop up, and based on the most recent one by me there's genuine interest in expanding this trend.

It isn't enough, and it certainly doesn't extend to everyone, but I firmly believe that there's been a sea-change in the last decade where the perception of living a "green" lifestyle has gone from "extreme-hippie-wacko" to something both desirable and obtainable.

That was the trend, but that trend has been reversing. http://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/updates/2017/01/17/vehicle-miles-traveled-another-look-at-our-evolving-behavior

I look at this a little different. I don't want to discount any form of energy: coal, oil, wind, solar, hydro, nuclear. One good thing I see happening is the fossil fuel industy is getting a ton of pressure to clean things up (generally speaking). If the industy is able to develope new tech that can cost effectivly scrub their stack air I don't see why we shouldn't use those sources of energy.

I don't want coal to be demonized simply because it's coal.

Like unicorn-hair filters?

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1094 on: January 20, 2017, 09:27:27 AM »
No like actual air scrubbers that remove imputies from the air. They are extremely expensive to run so coal companies simply shut down.

This is actually how they are being shut down in the US, by increasing the air quality standards to a point that makes them cost ineffective. If the tech catches up they will be a fine source of energy for people to use. Until then they will continue to export to countries that don't have those standards.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1095 on: January 20, 2017, 09:34:26 AM »
Perhaps I simply see a different subset of the population, but I disagree that "literally no one is doing [things to help the planet]". I'm encouraged by the shift in public perception at the local level that yes, climate change is serious problem. I've been absolutely astounded at the number of homes with residential photo-voltaics on their roofs, and conversations with many people who have installed them suggest that their motives were at least partly driven by a desire for cleaner energy. We're still a car-crazy country, but its importance has started to wane with total # of miles driven declining.  Volts and Leafs are popping up everywhere, as are EV charging stations (my tiny ass library has two!). I'm seeing a lot more LEEDs-certified buildings pop up, and based on the most recent one by me there's genuine interest in expanding this trend.

It isn't enough, and it certainly doesn't extend to everyone, but I firmly believe that there's been a sea-change in the last decade where the perception of living a "green" lifestyle has gone from "extreme-hippie-wacko" to something both desirable and obtainable.

That was the trend, but that trend has been reversing. http://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/updates/2017/01/17/vehicle-miles-traveled-another-look-at-our-evolving-behavior

I look at this a little different. I don't want to discount any form of energy: coal, oil, wind, solar, hydro, nuclear. One good thing I see happening is the fossil fuel industy is getting a ton of pressure to clean things up (generally speaking). If the industy is able to develope new tech that can cost effectivly scrub their stack air I don't see why we shouldn't use those sources of energy.

I don't want coal to be demonized simply because it's coal.

Regarding the coal, there's really two issues at play.  One is harmful particulates and the other is greenhouse gases. Filters and scrubbers can take care of the particulate issue to some degree, though they still present a problem of what to do with the spent cartridges (which are now basically super-concentrated). Good scrubbers are incredibly expensive, and require frequent maintenance and monitoring.  Preventing the release of green-house gases are far trickier and hasn't been accomplished at a commercial scale. Even if you eliminate 100% of harmful particulates you're still releasing green-house gases.  This still happens if you burn, say, natural gas or petroleum, but gas doesn't have the particulate problem coal does. Obviously "clean" source have neither problem, but have their own inherent impacts.

Regarding the miles driven - you are right that it's a bit more complicated. Total number of miles driven has risen from it's lull, though the correlation to fuel prices suggests that may explain some of what we are seeing. Accounting for changes in population we still haven't hit our former peak, and again, we might not should fuel prices increase a bit more. Expressed as fuel consumed the curve looks even more rosy, as fuel efficiency standards have shot up int he last decade, especially on the least efficient vehicles (trucks and small SUVs).  Unfortunately many people are still buying them, and the latest surge has been more people to SUVs (again coupled with low fuel prices).

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1096 on: January 20, 2017, 09:51:10 AM »
Nereo, I agree with all your points. The coal issues are very complicated but I am hopeful things will improve.

Same with miles driven many variables but things are going in the right direction for the most part

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1097 on: January 20, 2017, 09:58:39 AM »
Nereo, I agree with all your points. The coal issues are very complicated but I am hopeful things will improve.

Same with miles driven many variables but things are going in the right direction for the most part

I just don't see actual clean fossil fuels being more cost-effective than improving solar. The R&D money is better spent bringing costs down on capturing the infinite free energy falling on most of our heads during daylight hours.

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1098 on: January 20, 2017, 10:02:32 AM »
We did our part by not having kids.  More carbon saving than even the greenest of green can claim.

Me, too.

Isn't this the line of thinking that leads supervillains to try to wipe out humanity?

Well, something can be said for thinking outside the box, getting to the root of the problem and taking drastic steps to adress the issue.

nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1099 on: January 20, 2017, 10:11:07 AM »
Nereo, I agree with all your points. The coal issues are very complicated but I am hopeful things will improve.

Same with miles driven many variables but things are going in the right direction for the most part

I just don't see actual clean fossil fuels being more cost-effective than improving solar. The R&D money is better spent bringing costs down on capturing the infinite free energy falling on most of our heads during daylight hours.

I agree, but it's not just limited to solar. Wind turbines, particularly the offshore kind which would produce the most energy/cost have run into major roadblocks for people who don't want it to 'spoil the view' and (ironically) to environmental groups concerned with bird strikes. Ironic since both mining and burning of fossil fuels creates their own major environmental problems, but it's easier to litigate against point-source impacts than diffuse ones.

Often ignored is that a large chunk of energy concerns could be addressed by much better energy efficiency in our homes and buildings (currently ~50% of our energy budget). Unlike cars which have a roughly decade-long lifespan, homes last on average 50 years - commercial buildings slightly longer.
Geothermal (another green energy source) can also help with this.