What Are The Characteristics Of A Feminist?

[John Galt incarnate!]

What do feminists believe?

What are their objectives?

What policies do they support?

I'm arguing with a friend about feminists'  characteristics.

[deborah]

Feminists believe that female human beings are not treated equally or equitably with male human beings, and that female human beings are the losers in this treatment.

Their objectives are to be paid equally for equal work, to be expected to only do an equal share of unpaid work, and to have reasonable control over their bodies.

Policies can include banning female genital mutilation, equal pay rights, flexible work conditions, laws on domestic violence...

[nereo]

OP - you are asking what Feminists believe while simultaneously arguing with a friend about feminists' characteristics?

[former player]

What do feminists believe?

What are their objectives?

What policies do they support?

I'm arguing with a friend about feminists'  characteristics.

One of the characteristics of a feminist is not running around doing the housework for men.  Do your own damn googling, and maybe read a book or two.

[John Galt incarnate!]

OP - you are asking what Feminists believe while simultaneously arguing with a friend about feminists' characteristics?

My friend is a feminist.

She told me her brother is a feminist.

We're arguing about whether a male can truly be a feminist.

[nereo]

OP - you are asking what Feminists believe while simultaneously arguing with a friend about feminists' characteristics?

My friend is a feminist.

She told me her brother is a feminist.

We're arguing about whether a male can truly be a feminist.

And what is your position on this matter?

[Aegishjalmur]

OP - you are asking what Feminists believe while simultaneously arguing with a friend about feminists' characteristics?

My friend is a feminist.

She told me her brother is a feminist.

We're arguing about whether a male can truly be a feminist.

Just because one is not a member of the affected group does not stop them from pulling their head out of their ass and looking at the treatment of that group and saying 'that's not right' and 'that needs to be changed'. They may have a more limited understanding of all the problems but they can still make an effort to educate themselves and work on their own prejudices.

[John Galt incarnate!]

OP - you are asking what Feminists believe while simultaneously arguing with a friend about feminists' characteristics?

My friend is a feminist.

She told me her brother is a feminist.

We're arguing about whether a male can truly be a feminist.

And what is your position on this matter?

.

I'm undecided.

[nereo]

OP - you are asking what Feminists believe while simultaneously arguing with a friend about feminists' characteristics?

My friend is a feminist.

She told me her brother is a feminist.

We're arguing about whether a male can truly be a feminist.

And what is your position on this matter?

.

I'm undecided.

then I am really confused.  Who is doing the arguing if only one side has a position?

To throw in my own 2¢ - I think a man can share the same opinions on gender issues as a woman, though not the same experiences.  If feminism is a shared set of believes about the equality of women, anyone can be a feminist.  If its about share beliefs and experiences -- that would exclude men, though they could (i suppose) be considered "allies".
Similar discussion to race or gender issues.  I can support and fight for equal rights and opportunites, but as a white self-identified male I do not claim to know the same injustices as someone who is black or is transgender.

[Jtrey17]

What do feminists believe?

What are their objectives?

What policies do they support?

I'm arguing with a friend about feminists'  characteristics.

One of the characteristics of a feminist is not running around doing the housework for men.  Do your own damn googling, and maybe read a book or two.

Bravo!!

[PDXTabs]

In the simplest terms, feminism is "the radical notion that women are people." - Marie Shear

One of the characteristics of a feminist is not running around doing the housework for men.  Do your own damn googling, and maybe read a book or two.

But which book? You could read for months and still be confused (Betty Friedan: The Three Waves of Feminism). My local university has a course, yours might too.

[Linea_Norway]

OP - you are asking what Feminists believe while simultaneously arguing with a friend about feminists' characteristics?

My friend is a feminist.

She told me her brother is a feminist.

We're arguing about whether a male can truly be a feminist.

Of course a man can be a feminist. It only means he thinks women deserve to be treated equally to men.

[Kris]

OP - you are asking what Feminists believe while simultaneously arguing with a friend about feminists' characteristics?

My friend is a feminist.

She told me her brother is a feminist.

We're arguing about whether a male can truly be a feminist.

And what is your position on this matter?

.

I'm undecided.

My feminist husband would be confused by this.

[ctuser1]

I am male, and consider myself a feminist. I believe everyone should have the same rights and responsibilities.

When I was in my teens, I loved the English translation of "A Doll's House", by Henrik Ibsen (unfortunately I don't read Norwegian) - widely considered to be one of the early feminist pieces of literature.

The issues with women's rights are very widely known. Women did not even have rights to vote a 100 years ago. Even today, the workplace continues to be much more fraught for women than it is for men. I feel outraged by this, and I think it would be justified if all males who consider workplace to be a suitable place to flirt lost their careers.

The issues with women's responsibilities are often overlooked. I try to remedy it in small ways wherever and whenever possible. My daughter learned early that "princess"es are stupid because they wait around to be rescued and to be married off, that being called a "princess" is not really a compliment, etc. etc. etc.

[RetiredAt63]

I am male, and consider myself a feminist. I believe everyone should have the same rights and responsibilities.

When I was in my teens, I loved the English translation of "A Doll's House", by Henrik Ibsen (unfortunately I don't read Norwegian) - widely considered to be one of the early feminist pieces of literature.

The issues with women's rights are very widely known. Women did not even have rights to vote a 100 years ago. Even today, the workplace continues to be much more fraught for women than it is for men. I feel outraged by this, and I think it would be justified if all males who consider workplace to be a suitable place to flirt lost their careers.

The issues with women's responsibilities are often overlooked. I try to remedy it in small ways wherever and whenever possible. My daughter learned early that "princess"es are stupid because they wait around to be rescued and to be married off, that being called a "princess" is not really a compliment, etc. etc. etc.

A bit OT but has your daughter read The Paper Bag Princess?

[John Galt incarnate!]

OP - you are asking what Feminists believe while simultaneously arguing with a friend about feminists' characteristics?

My friend is a feminist.

She told me her brother is a feminist.

We're arguing about whether a male can truly be a feminist.

And what is your position on this matter?

.

I'm undecided.

then I am really confused.  Who is doing the arguing if only one side has a position?

To throw in my own 2¢ - I think a man can share the same opinions on gender issues as a woman, though not the same experiences.  If feminism is a shared set of believes about the equality of women, anyone can be a feminist.  If its about share beliefs and experiences -- that would exclude men, though they could (i suppose) be considered "allies".
Similar discussion to race or gender issues.  I can support and fight for equal rights and opportunites, but as a white self-identified male I do not claim to know the same injustices as someone who is black or is transgender.

My friend is persuadable that a male cannot be a feminist and I am persuadable that a male can be a feminist.

[OtherJen]

I am male, and consider myself a feminist. I believe everyone should have the same rights and responsibilities.

When I was in my teens, I loved the English translation of "A Doll's House", by Henrik Ibsen (unfortunately I don't read Norwegian) - widely considered to be one of the early feminist pieces of literature.

The issues with women's rights are very widely known. Women did not even have rights to vote a 100 years ago. Even today, the workplace continues to be much more fraught for women than it is for men. I feel outraged by this, and I think it would be justified if all males who consider workplace to be a suitable place to flirt lost their careers.

The issues with women's responsibilities are often overlooked. I try to remedy it in small ways wherever and whenever possible. My daughter learned early that "princess"es are stupid because they wait around to be rescued and to be married off, that being called a "princess" is not really a compliment, etc. etc. etc.

Depends on the princess. Queen Elizabeth II refused to be sent to safety during WWII and instead enlisted in the military as an auto mechanic. Various other modern princesses use their celebrity to support and highlight social issues. My niece is somewhat princess-obsessed, thanks to Disney. I'd much rather she follow the examples of, say, Princess Madeline of Sweden (focus: preventing the trafficking and sexual abuse of children), the Countess of Wessex (Sophie; focuses: children's education, health, and protection and support for the disabled), or the Duchess of Cornwall (Camilla; focuses: literacy, support for victims of sexual abuse and domestic violence).

[Kris]

OP - you are asking what Feminists believe while simultaneously arguing with a friend about feminists' characteristics?

My friend is a feminist.

She told me her brother is a feminist.

We're arguing about whether a male can truly be a feminist.

And what is your position on this matter?

.

I'm undecided.

then I am really confused.  Who is doing the arguing if only one side has a position?

To throw in my own 2¢ - I think a man can share the same opinions on gender issues as a woman, though not the same experiences.  If feminism is a shared set of believes about the equality of women, anyone can be a feminist.  If its about share beliefs and experiences -- that would exclude men, though they could (i suppose) be considered "allies".
Similar discussion to race or gender issues.  I can support and fight for equal rights and opportunites, but as a white self-identified male I do not claim to know the same injustices as someone who is black or is transgender.

My friend is persuadable that a male cannot be a feminist and I am persuadable that a male can be a feminist.

I think it's very possible for a man to think he is a feminist but not, in actuality, believe in women's equality to men.

But I also think it's very possible for a woman to think she isn't a feminist, but in actuality, have beliefs that are 100% consistent with feminism. The word feminism has been distorted and weaponized by so many different people/groups/agendas that many people are afraid of being branded with it, sadly.

(It's also possible for a woman to be sexist/misogynist toward women.)

[John Galt incarnate!]

Just because one is not a member of the affected group does not stop them from pulling their head out of their ass and looking at the treatment of that group and saying 'that's not right' and 'that needs to be changed'. They may have a more limited understanding of all the problems but they can still make an effort to educate themselves and work on their own prejudices.

Bradwell v. State 1873 sustained  a statute that barred women from practicing law.

Speaking of  "prejudices," in part, Justice Bradley supported his concurrence as follows, a rationale that collides with  21st-century egalitarianism.


On the contrary, the civil law, as well as nature herself, has always recognized a wide difference in the respective spheres and destinies of man and woman.

 Man is, or should be, woman's protector and defender.

The natural and proper timidity and delicacy which belongs to the female sex evidently unfits it for many of the occupations of civil life.

The constitution of the family organization, which is founded in the divine ordinance, as well as in the nature of things, indicates the domestic sphere as that which properly belongs to the domain and functions of womanhood.

The harmony, not to say identity, of interest and views which belong, or should belong, to the family institution is repugnant to the idea of a woman adopting a distinct and independent career from that of her husband.

[nereo]

Bradwell v. State 1873 sustained  a statute that barred women from practicing law.

succinctly, what is your point in referencing a 150 year old statute that no longer has precedence in our legal system?

[John Galt incarnate!]

But I also think it's very possible for a woman to think she isn't a feminist, but in actuality, have beliefs that are 100% consistent with feminism.

Interesting!

In your opinion, what is it that would cause a  woman who believes in feminism to think she is not a feminist?

[John Galt incarnate!]

Bradwell v. State 1873 sustained  a statute that barred women from practicing law.

succinctly, what is your point in referencing a 150 year old statute that no longer has precedence in our legal system?

I think there are vestiges of Justice Bradley's  rationale  in 21st-century societies.

On a happier note, the case evokes "We've come a long way, baby."

[nereo]

Bradwell v. State 1873 sustained  a statute that barred women from practicing law.

succinctly, what is your point in referencing a 150 year old statute that no longer has precedence in our legal system?

I think there are vestiges of Justice Bradley's  rationale  in 21st-century societies.

On a happier note, the case evokes "We've come a long way, baby."

I would argue that it isn't Justice Bradley's rationale which is echoing throughout the 21st century, rather that he reflected a patriarchal view which was prevalent during his time and continues to some degree today. 

put another way, one could point to literally hundreds of legal hiring practices, case law, legal standard etc. to highlight how unequal our society has been for women.  Bradwell v. State is just a reflection, not the source of our male dominated society.

[Kris]

But I also think it's very possible for a woman to think she isn't a feminist, but in actuality, have beliefs that are 100% consistent with feminism.

Interesting!

In your opinion, what is it that would cause a  woman who believes in feminism to think she is not a feminist?

Because of all the “feminazi” strawman hatred spewed by people like Rush Limbaugh.

I have had many conversations with women over the years (especially when I was a professor, with students) with women who have said things like, “I mean, I’m not a feminist or anything, but I do believe that women should have the same rights as men.”

[charis]

But I also think it's very possible for a woman to think she isn't a feminist, but in actuality, have beliefs that are 100% consistent with feminism.

Interesting!

In your opinion, what is it that would cause a  woman who believes in feminism to think she is not a feminist?

Someone answered this above. The term has been weaponized and distorted so people shy sway. Many women of my generation support or live feminist ideals but reject being labelled by what they've come to believe is negative.

[Christof]

put another way, one could point to literally hundreds of legal hiring practices, case law, legal standard etc. to highlight how unequal our society has been for women.  Bradwell v. State is just a reflection, not the source of our male dominated society.

You don‘t have to go very far back in time. In the early 90ties Star Trek Next Generation with Captain Picard looked like a truly progressive world. Peace, human rights, they got rid of money, valued art and even replaced alcohol with synthohol.

Watching the same episodes today leaves a totally different impression. Lots of discrimination on jobs. Females are doctors, psychologists or mothers. Males are captains or engineers. There‘s hardly any diversity and many places are just not suitable for inclusion. Narrow tubes or the use of ladders excludes wheelchair users, for instance. The only blind person can only work by using a visor which requires him to adapt to the world rather than vice versa.

It didn‘t look this way 30 years ago, just like today will look very different in 30 years.

[nereo]

But I also think it's very possible for a woman to think she isn't a feminist, but in actuality, have beliefs that are 100% consistent with feminism.

Interesting!

In your opinion, what is it that would cause a  woman who believes in feminism to think she is not a feminist?

Because of all the “feminazi” strawman hatred spewed by people like Rush Limbaugh.

I have had many conversations with women over the years (especially when I was a professor, with students) with women who have said things like, “I mean, I’m nor a feminist or anything, but I do believe that women should have the same rights as men.”

... I mean, my wife doesn't like to be identified as a "feminist" because it invites some nasty comments from the more conservative people in our society - some of whom are related to us.  But both of us believe in the concepts outlined above.

What gets me is when someone assumes that any man who is in a relationship with a woman who is a feminist is somehow being 'held back' by his significant other or has "lost his manhood".  Often it comes with rather crass terms like "got your balls in a vice" or "she runs your life".  Several times I've been given the "ball-and-chain" comment when I said I wanted to discuss a life-altering decision with my wife. 

In reality it's about equality, and treating your partner as, well, an actual partner. 

[Kris]

But I also think it's very possible for a woman to think she isn't a feminist, but in actuality, have beliefs that are 100% consistent with feminism.

Interesting!

In your opinion, what is it that would cause a  woman who believes in feminism to think she is not a feminist?

Because of all the “feminazi” strawman hatred spewed by people like Rush Limbaugh.

I have had many conversations with women over the years (especially when I was a professor, with students) with women who have said things like, “I mean, I’m nor a feminist or anything, but I do believe that women should have the same rights as men.”

... I mean, my wife doesn't like to be identified as a "feminist" because it invites some nasty comments from the more conservative people in our society - some of whom are related to us.  But both of us believe in the concepts outlined above.

What gets me is when someone assumes that any man who is in a relationship with a woman who is a feminist is somehow being 'held back' by his significant other or has "lost his manhood".  Often it comes with rather crass terms like "got your balls in a vice" or "she runs your life".  Several times I've been given the "ball-and-chain" comment when I said I wanted to discuss a life-altering decision with my wife. 

In reality it's about equality, and treating your partner as, well, an actual partner.

Yep, exactly. Toxic masculinity (in other words, the BS about your "manhood", etc.) that Nereo cites above is also part of why people feel like they have to tiptoe around "feminism".

[Tyson]

But I also think it's very possible for a woman to think she isn't a feminist, but in actuality, have beliefs that are 100% consistent with feminism.

Interesting!

In your opinion, what is it that would cause a  woman who believes in feminism to think she is not a feminist?

Because of all the “feminazi” strawman hatred spewed by people like Rush Limbaugh.

I have had many conversations with women over the years (especially when I was a professor, with students) with women who have said things like, “I mean, I’m nor a feminist or anything, but I do believe that women should have the same rights as men.”

... I mean, my wife doesn't like to be identified as a "feminist" because it invites some nasty comments from the more conservative people in our society - some of whom are related to us.  But both of us believe in the concepts outlined above.

What gets me is when someone assumes that any man who is in a relationship with a woman who is a feminist is somehow being 'held back' by his significant other or has "lost his manhood".  Often it comes with rather crass terms like "got your balls in a vice" or "she runs your life".  Several times I've been given the "ball-and-chain" comment when I said I wanted to discuss a life-altering decision with my wife. 

In reality it's about equality, and treating your partner as, well, an actual partner.

Yep, exactly. Toxic masculinity (in other words, the BS about your "manhood", etc.) that Nereo cites above is also part of why people feel like they have to tiptoe around "feminism".

That's true but I think it goes beyond even 'toxic masculinity'.  If you look at the underlying assumptions here, people that say things like that seem to feel that in a relationship, someone is dominant and another is submissive.  So if the man isn't dominant, then the woman must be, and this lack of dominance on the man's part is shameful.

Notice that the idea of a relationship of equals never even crosses their mind as a possibility.  For them, equality is not possible, only dominance or submission.  And you see this color their entire world view.

[Wrenchturner]

There are conflicting definitions of feminism between feminists, as your observation re: male feminists demonstrates.  See intersectional feminists vs. trans-exclusionary radical feminists(TERFs).  Or second vs third wave(which is part of the previous conflict), etc.

[Kris]

There are conflicting definitions of feminism between feminists, as your observation re: male feminists demonstrates.  See intersectional feminists vs. trans-exclusionary radical feminists(TERFs).  Or second vs third wave(which is part of the previous conflict), etc.

Yes, I suppose. But please demonstrate sources, because it seems clear that you aim to bring in radicals (TERFs) as a way to derail the conversation.

No surprise. But no less disgusting.

[Wrenchturner]

There are conflicting definitions of feminism between feminists, as your observation re: male feminists demonstrates.  See intersectional feminists vs. trans-exclusionary radical feminists(TERFs).  Or second vs third wave(which is part of the previous conflict), etc.

Yes, I suppose. But please demonstrate sources, because it seems clear that you aim to bring in radicals (TERFs) as a way to derail the conversation.

No surprise. But no less disgusting.

From wiki, on TERF:

TERF (/ˈtɜːrf/, also written terf) is an acronym for trans-exclusionary radical feminist. The term was coined in 2008.[1] It was originally applied to a minority of feminists espousing sentiments that other feminists consider transphobic, such as the rejection of the assertion that trans women are women, the exclusion of trans women from women's spaces, and opposition to transgender rights legislation. The meaning has since expanded to refer more broadly to people with trans-exclusive views who may have no involvement with radical feminism.[2][3]

Those referred to with the word TERF typically reject the term or consider it a slur; some identify themselves as gender critical.[4] Critics of the word TERF say that it has been used in insults and alongside violent rhetoric.[5][6][7][8] In academic discourse, there is no consensus on whether TERF constitutes a slur.[7][8][9]

From wiki, on Pro-feminism:

Some feminists and pro-feminists believe that it is inappropriate for men to call themselves "feminists". This argument takes a variety of forms, including the following:

Feminism is a movement and a body of ideas developed by, for, and about women.
Men can never fully know what it is like to be a woman.
By calling themselves feminists, men could pre-empt and take over the feminist movement, thus stifling women's concerns and voices.[18]

From wiki, on Third-wave feminism, the section entitled "Relationship with second wave"

The second wave of feminism is often accused of being elitist and ignoring groups such as women of colour and transgender women, instead, focusing on white, middle class, cisgender women. Third wave feminists questioned the beliefs of their predecessors and began to apply feminist theory to a wider variety of women, who had not been previously included in feminist activity.[37]

Please note I did not derail anything, nor did I do anything that warrants a claim of "disgusting". 

[Kris]

There are conflicting definitions of feminism between feminists, as your observation re: male feminists demonstrates.  See intersectional feminists vs. trans-exclusionary radical feminists(TERFs).  Or second vs third wave(which is part of the previous conflict), etc.

Yes, I suppose. But please demonstrate sources, because it seems clear that you aim to bring in radicals (TERFs) as a way to derail the conversation.

No surprise. But no less disgusting.

From wiki, on TERF:

TERF (/ˈtɜːrf/, also written terf) is an acronym for trans-exclusionary radical feminist. The term was coined in 2008.[1] It was originally applied to a minority of feminists espousing sentiments that other feminists consider transphobic, such as the rejection of the assertion that trans women are women, the exclusion of trans women from women's spaces, and opposition to transgender rights legislation. The meaning has since expanded to refer more broadly to people with trans-exclusive views who may have no involvement with radical feminism.[2][3]

Those referred to with the word TERF typically reject the term or consider it a slur; some identify themselves as gender critical.[4] Critics of the word TERF say that it has been used in insults and alongside violent rhetoric.[5][6][7][8] In academic discourse, there is no consensus on whether TERF constitutes a slur.[7][8][9]

From wiki, on Pro-feminism:

Some feminists and pro-feminists believe that it is inappropriate for men to call themselves "feminists". This argument takes a variety of forms, including the following:

Feminism is a movement and a body of ideas developed by, for, and about women.
Men can never fully know what it is like to be a woman.
By calling themselves feminists, men could pre-empt and take over the feminist movement, thus stifling women's concerns and voices.[18]

From wiki, on Third-wave feminism, the section entitled "Relationship with second wave"

The second wave of feminism is often accused of being elitist and ignoring groups such as women of colour and transgender women, instead, focusing on white, middle class, cisgender women. Third wave feminists questioned the beliefs of their predecessors and began to apply feminist theory to a wider variety of women, who had not been previously included in feminist activity.[37]

Please note I did not derail anything, nor did I do anything that warrants a claim of "disgusting".

Ok

[Linea_Norway]

I have also heard a young sports woman say that she wasn't a feminst. She was upset about that women weren't allowed to do ski jumping on international level and she wanted to change that. When a journalist asked her whether she was a feminist, she said no. I think the young woman associated the word feminist by being a lesbian with rough male clothing. Strange that people don't learn the meaning of the word feminist.

By the way, do we have a similar word to feminist that means that you want equal rights for all people, included different races? I can't think if any now. I think is is called equal rights activist, but those are a lot of words.

[Bloop Bloop]

I have also heard a young sports woman say that she wasn't a feminst. She was upset about that women weren't allowed to do ski jumping on international level and she wanted to change that. When a journalist asked her whether she was a feminist, she said no. I think the young woman associated the word feminist by being a lesbian with rough male clothing. Strange that people don't learn the meaning of the word feminist.

By the way, do we have a similar word to feminist that means that you want equal rights for all people, included different races? I can't think if any now. I think is is called equal rights activist, but those are a lot of words.

A humanist, maybe?

I would consider myself a feminist, in that I can see a lot of mediocre men succeeding in my field (law) where most successful women have to be really good to get to the same level. And I think that's sad. I believe the world is changing, though, which is a good thing.

[GuitarStv]

The word feminist has been the subject of so much attack and additional baggage that I'd never use it to describe myself or anyone I know.

Being upset when you see long standing structural inequality in the ways people are treated, and working to try to change that doesn't make you a feminist.  It makes you not an asshole.

[Linea_Norway]

The word feminist has been the subject of so much attack and additional baggage that I'd never use it to describe myself or anyone I know.

Being upset when you see long standing structural inequality in the ways people are treated, and working to try to change that doesn't make you a feminist.  It makes you not an asshole.

Do you think a feminist needs a factor of doing something active for equal rights, like writing opinion articles in magazines/papers?

[nereo]

The word feminist has been the subject of so much attack and additional baggage that I'd never use it to describe myself or anyone I know.

Being upset when you see long standing structural inequality in the ways people are treated, and working to try to change that doesn't make you a feminist.  It makes you not an asshole.

I’m happy to join the “not an asshole” movement. Can we make tshirts?

[GuitarStv]

The word feminist has been the subject of so much attack and additional baggage that I'd never use it to describe myself or anyone I know.

Being upset when you see long standing structural inequality in the ways people are treated, and working to try to change that doesn't make you a feminist.  It makes you not an asshole.

Do you think a feminist needs a factor of doing something active for equal rights, like writing opinion articles in magazines/papers?

I think that anyone who isn't an asshole needs to do something active to help address structural problems, even if these are small things.  But this applies to gay and trans rights, racism, poverty/social inequality, AND women's rights.  It's not a feminist thing, it's a being a good person thing.

The word feminist has been the subject of so much attack and additional baggage that I'd never use it to describe myself or anyone I know.

Being upset when you see long standing structural inequality in the ways people are treated, and working to try to change that doesn't make you a feminist.  It makes you not an asshole.

I’m happy to join the “not an asshole” movement. Can we make tshirts?

I'd love to live in a time where this wasn't such an unusual position that it needed to be advertised . . .

[Metalcat]

What do feminists believe?

What are their objectives?

What policies do they support?

I'm arguing with a friend about feminists'  characteristics.

One of the characteristics of a feminist is not running around doing the housework for men.  Do your own damn googling, and maybe read a book or two.

Amen to that.
Feminism is a very broad brush to paint with, it's not a singular concept that some arbiter of truth on the internet can really define with specific parameters for the sake of settling a debate.

I agree that anyone who wants to debate feminism should probably educate themselves. Just being female imparts a certain degree of knowledge on the matter, but being female is not a panacea of understanding the issues either.

I'm Jewish by birth, but understand minimally about my own cultural background and the intense issues surrounding it, being of the group imparts a distinct, but limited understanding in this case.

I have a much deeper understanding of African American culture due to exposure and study, but even then, I'm sure as shit not debating with black people about racism.

If I am a non member of a group and wanting to discuss issues related to that group, I would not be debating any positions with anyone, I would be seeking perspective and wisdom, and asking questions to better understand.

[MilesTeg]

put another way, one could point to literally hundreds of legal hiring practices, case law, legal standard etc. to highlight how unequal our society has been for women.  Bradwell v. State is just a reflection, not the source of our male dominated society.

You don‘t have to go very far back in time. In the early 90ties Star Trek Next Generation with Captain Picard looked like a truly progressive world. Peace, human rights, they got rid of money, valued art and even replaced alcohol with synthohol.

Watching the same episodes today leaves a totally different impression. Lots of discrimination on jobs. Females are doctors, psychologists or mothers. Males are captains or engineers. There‘s hardly any diversity and many places are just not suitable for inclusion. Narrow tubes or the use of ladders excludes wheelchair users, for instance. The only blind person can only work by using a visor which requires him to adapt to the world rather than vice versa.

It didn‘t look this way 30 years ago, just like today will look very different in 30 years.

A little bit harsh on TNG there.

In TNG there were women security chiefs (Yar), captains (e.g. Garret of the Enterprise C), first officers (e.g. Shelby), judges, admirals (e.g. Nachayev who frequently was the admiral ordering the enterprise around), scientists, etc. Not sure why you think being a doctor is a discriminatory job. All portrayed as highly competent human beings.

Both a male and female lead had parental story arcs (Worf and Crusher). Unlike Worf, Crusher was never portrayed as anything other than a highly competent parent and she never was shown letting her motherhood interfere with her duties.

And complaining about lack of high accommodation for disabled people on a military vessel is kinda silly, no?

Don't get me wrong, TNG is far from perfect, but it's not as you portray. In many ways still ahead of our time. How many female admirals are in the U.S. Navy ordering around the fleets finest?

[John Galt incarnate!]

By the way, do we have a similar word to feminist that means that you want equal rights for all people, included different races? I can't think if any now. I think is is called equal rights activist, but those are a lot of words.

Were you trying to recall "egalitarian"?

Nounally it means a person who  advocates egalitarianism.

I am an egalitarian.

[John Galt incarnate!]

Do you think a feminist needs a factor of doing something active for equal rights, like writing opinion articles in magazines/papers?

No.

For instance,  an assiduous   feminist could be   a parent  who merely teaches their children  the importance and value of respect and equitable treatment for  girls and women.

[Christof]

Don't get me wrong, TNG is far from perfect, but it's not as you portray. In many ways still ahead of our time. How many female admirals are in the U.S. Navy ordering around the fleets finest?

I don‘t know how many female admirals there are in the US Navy, I‘m from Germany. around here when Chancellor Angela Merkel decided that it was her last term, young kids wondered if men can become chancellor‘s, too (Merkel has served since 2005).

As I said, when I was watching TNG in the 90ties, it looked very progressive. For its time it was very progressive much like TOS. But times change.

If we had a ship like the Enterprise today that apparently does not have the same space constraints as a Navy ship, yes I‘d absolutely expect them to cater for common cases such as a wheelchair even today. Especially in a military vessel where it is way more likely for people to be wounded and ending up in a wheelchair.

I also expect them to have so many non-male people working there that I wouldn‘t be able to name them, just like I can‘t name most male staff. I wouldn‘t expect them to kill the only female security chief in the first season, or put all female main character into non STEM positions. I wouldn‘t expect 80% male crew members, or even mostly human crew members. After all, this is supposed to be an interplanetarian union.

The point is that Enterprise does a good job in representing what we considered to be fair and progressive at the time. Watching old episodes makes it obvious how far we have come. At the same time having lived and watched episodes back then makes it pretty clear that we still have a long way ahead. Watching today‘s episodes will sparkle the same strange feelings thirty years from now.

[GuitarStv]

What part of the Enterprise didn't cater to wheelchairs?  There were ramps everywhere (on the bridge, into shuttlecraft), there were elevators everywhere, and all the floors I remember were flat.  The only two non-wheelchair accessible spots were the Jeffries tubes with ladders and maybe there were a couple steps up to the transporter?  Don't remember.

Even the chief engineer was a man with disabilities - a blind man.

[nereo]

Oh what the hell, we’re already so far off topic...

Star Trek Cadet:  How come all the doors on a star-ship open automatically and there are no door knobs?

Officer:  Didn’t they teach you about the COVID plague back in the 21st century??

[Christof]

Very funny (not) and totally missing the point... over and out.

[nereo]

over and out.

Please don’t say this.  It’s just wrong.

[Wrenchturner]

I think it's a great idea to not be an asshole, but are there not times when it is necessary to engage in conflict, which could result in your perception as an asshole?  Most people would agree that productive and useful activism are good things, yet the people that oppose a given activist's goal would probably characterize said activist as an asshole, no?

To be more clear--many things in society involve compromise, rather than a perfect solution, and this will necessitate conflict.  So the declaration that one is "not an asshole" doesn't seem to give enough credibility to the opposing side.

Not to say that there are good reasons to oppose feminism specifically, but as I pointed out earlier in the thread, the definition of a feminist is not entirely clear to begin with. 

Affirmative action is a better example.  Prime minister Trudeau came under fire when he decided to make his cabinet 50/50 female/male.  Issues of so-called reverse sexism, or reverse racism, etc.

[MilesTeg]

Don't get me wrong, TNG is far from perfect, but it's not as you portray. In many ways still ahead of our time. How many female admirals are in the U.S. Navy ordering around the fleets finest?

I don‘t know how many female admirals there are in the US Navy, I‘m from Germany. around here when Chancellor Angela Merkel decided that it was her last term, young kids wondered if men can become chancellor‘s, too (Merkel has served since 2005).

As I said, when I was watching TNG in the 90ties, it looked very progressive. For its time it was very progressive much like TOS. But times change.

If we had a ship like the Enterprise today that apparently does not have the same space constraints as a Navy ship, yes I‘d absolutely expect them to cater for common cases such as a wheelchair even today. Especially in a military vessel where it is way more likely for people to be wounded and ending up in a wheelchair.

I also expect them to have so many non-male people working there that I wouldn‘t be able to name them, just like I can‘t name most male staff. I wouldn‘t expect them to kill the only female security chief in the first season, or put all female main character into non STEM positions. I wouldn‘t expect 80% male crew members, or even mostly human crew members. After all, this is supposed to be an interplanetarian union.

The point is that Enterprise does a good job in representing what we considered to be fair and progressive at the time. Watching old episodes makes it obvious how far we have come. At the same time having lived and watched episodes back then makes it pretty clear that we still have a long way ahead. Watching today‘s episodes will sparkle the same strange feelings thirty years from now.

Seem to have hit some kind of nerve here. Facinating.

Since when is being a doctor not a STEM profession?

Tasha Yar was killed off because the actress quit.

There are so many female crew I can't name them all.

A starship (like military ships today) is and should be designed to function effeciently and optimally at its purpose not to fulfill arbitrary inclusiveness standards. Just like submarines aren't designed to be manned by large/tall men or women. Do you seriously think the engineering crawl spaces and other guts of the ship should be designed to be wheel chair accessible?