Author Topic: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?  (Read 5813 times)

sol

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #50 on: August 10, 2018, 12:17:25 PM »
I think republicans are shooting themselves in the face by attacking Pelosi.  By all means, please try to convince the democratic caucus to nominate a new leader, maybe someone who is not 70+ years old, and has decades of experience finding congressional compromises.

Every single person who might conceivably replace Pelosi is MORE liberal than she is.  Every democrat in congress who has said they will support a different person for speaker is trying to move the party left, towards more progressive values.  Pelosi, the ever-practical centrist, may be the only thing keeping the democrats from going full blown crazy extremist the way the republicans already have.

You know who is even more unpopular than Nancy Pelosi (29% approval)?  Mitch McConnell (24% approval).

So go ahead, republicans.  Convince the dems to let Pelosi finally retire.  You're not going to like whoever takes her place any better.

Wait a second, maybe that's the point?  Maybe the whole goal of the anti-Pelosi movement is to deliberately sow further polarization, to divide the nation even further?  Down with the centrist, long live partisan bickering?  Maybe we should be checking for Russian fingerprints on those anti-Pelosi ads, because this strategy would fall right in line with the rest of their efforts in US politics these days.

J Boogie

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #51 on: August 10, 2018, 12:17:39 PM »
When progressives would rather attribute political unpopularity to misogyny instead of acknowledging or at least considering flaws in the candidate, it shows bad faith and intellectual laziness. I think Nancy Pelosi is bad for the US and it's not because she's a woman.

I acknowledge misogyny might be a factor for some, but there's a better case to be made that it's because she's an out of touch limousine liberal who, at best, was mistaken about what the ACA would do to premiums but argued with complete confidence that she knew it would lower rates. Then when it was found that many would pay higher premiums, she said she didn't remember saying it would lower rates and that people are actually getting a better value with the ACA. That comes off as pretty condescending to the millions of Americans whose rates went up who could care less about the new things they've covered for now.

She has a net worth of 30 million and a cushy healthcare program. The ACA didn't negatively impact her budget one bit, but tons of working class Americans felt it very hard. Across the board, premium increases averaged about 60% from 2013 to 2017. And yet with complete confidence she told Americans how good it would be for them so they just have to pass it to see what's in it. It's a cider house rules situation - the rules have been written against their will and by someone who does not live there and deal with the same issues.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2017/03/22/yes-it-was-the-affordable-care-act-that-increased-premiums/#72afc4bb11d2

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/19/health/health-insurance-premiums-employer.html


TrudgingAlong

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #52 on: August 10, 2018, 12:38:10 PM »
There is one very specific thing wrong with Pelosi, in the eyes of the GOP: she doesn't have a penis.  Everything else is just an excuse or an addition to this single problem.

That's bullshit. 

Ask the same question about any number of male Dems (Schumer, Bloomberg, whomever) and I'll give you the same answer. 

I posted this (or something similar) on Bernie when he pulled the same thing:

https://truthfeednews.com/ultimate-hypocrite-bernie-delivers-speech-at-anti-gun-rally-with-heavily-armed-guards/

Same reason why Dems didn't like Palin in 2008, being all female in our face, how dare her.

In all honestly, jumping right the ::whatever group:: card is just a cop out.  I can't disagree with or dislike Pelosi just because she's a female and I have some sort of subconscious resentment to that?  That's the bullshit.

Or Betsy DeVos or Sarah Huckabee or the first female to ever run a successful Presidential campaign (didn't hear much about that one in the press did we??), Kellyanne Conway.

While there is a tiny bit of truth in this, all of these women do shitty things, so Iíd say there are very legitimate reasons to dislike them. Sarah Huckabee in particular is vilified equally as much as her male predecessor was for her position of basically lying for the POTUS. Letís not turn every dislike about women into: ďItís because they are women.Ē

Ah, right, only the Left gets to pull that card, sorry, I'll shut up and color.

If thatís what youíd prefer /shrug

So you don't see any double standard here?  No empathy for "the other side"?

No, I donít see a double standard. I did say he had a tiny point, but really only because he included  Kellyanne Conway. He had to include a bunch of women who have done really shitty things people are opposed to. Kellyanne was disliked and I suspect mostly because she was a female supporting Trump. So, yes, it happens on both sides.

Iím a female and well aware of bias against us, but just like people donít like being called racist all the time for things that arenít, I donít think we should be including examples of people disliking women when there is a valid reason for it. I do understand if you like what these women do, you may not understand the other sideís issues with it, though.

Exactly!  Someone on the right feels exactly the same you do! They way they see it Nancy has done some "really shitty things" and they have valid reasons for disliking her, in their point of view.  Just as you do with the women being discussed.  Empathy!

Except I didnít even address the Pelosi issue, but okay.

Cromacster

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #53 on: August 10, 2018, 01:04:44 PM »
There is one very specific thing wrong with Pelosi, in the eyes of the GOP: she doesn't have a penis.  Everything else is just an excuse or an addition to this single problem.

That's bullshit. 

Ask the same question about any number of male Dems (Schumer, Bloomberg, whomever) and I'll give you the same answer. 

I posted this (or something similar) on Bernie when he pulled the same thing:

https://truthfeednews.com/ultimate-hypocrite-bernie-delivers-speech-at-anti-gun-rally-with-heavily-armed-guards/

Same reason why Dems didn't like Palin in 2008, being all female in our face, how dare her.

In all honestly, jumping right the ::whatever group:: card is just a cop out.  I can't disagree with or dislike Pelosi just because she's a female and I have some sort of subconscious resentment to that?  That's the bullshit.

Or Betsy DeVos or Sarah Huckabee or the first female to ever run a successful Presidential campaign (didn't hear much about that one in the press did we??), Kellyanne Conway.

While there is a tiny bit of truth in this, all of these women do shitty things, so Iíd say there are very legitimate reasons to dislike them. Sarah Huckabee in particular is vilified equally as much as her male predecessor was for her position of basically lying for the POTUS. Letís not turn every dislike about women into: ďItís because they are women.Ē

Ah, right, only the Left gets to pull that card, sorry, I'll shut up and color.

If thatís what youíd prefer /shrug

So you don't see any double standard here?  No empathy for "the other side"?

No, I donít see a double standard. I did say he had a tiny point, but really only because he included  Kellyanne Conway. He had to include a bunch of women who have done really shitty things people are opposed to. Kellyanne was disliked and I suspect mostly because she was a female supporting Trump. So, yes, it happens on both sides.

Iím a female and well aware of bias against us, but just like people donít like being called racist all the time for things that arenít, I donít think we should be including examples of people disliking women when there is a valid reason for it. I do understand if you like what these women do, you may not understand the other sideís issues with it, though.

Exactly!  Someone on the right feels exactly the same you do! They way they see it Nancy has done some "really shitty things" and they have valid reasons for disliking her, in their point of view.  Just as you do with the women being discussed.  Empathy!

Except I didnít even address the Pelosi issue, but okay.

I was assuming in the context of the conversation you were defending Pelosi.  You know what happens when you assume?

I've reread our back and forth and I think we have been in agreement all along, I think I misunderstood your original comments.  Carry on.


J Boogie

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #54 on: August 10, 2018, 01:11:05 PM »
Glad you guys got to the bottom of that lol seemed like you were both making the same point but were still mad at each other. Pretty rare to see that from a non-married couple ;)

GuitarStv

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #55 on: August 10, 2018, 01:35:22 PM »
The twists and turns you take to try and make your point are absurd.  Nancy Pelosi is in favor of regular citizens not having the right to defend themselves, which enjoying protection that is unavailable to regular citizens.  I find that offensive.[/quote]

Citizens have the right to defend themselves across the United States Chris, and Nancy Pelosi has never attempted to prevent them from doing so.  It's completely possible to defend ones self without an M4, a magazine with 20 bullets, and a concealed carry license.

Ms. Pelosi does have a security detail because of her position.  This type of protection is available to regular citizens.  If you want to buy a few mercenaries to look after you you're perfectly free to do so, right?  If you feel that there is danger to your life, you're free to contact the police for protection.

You're free to find Ms. Pelosi offensive if you want.  You're free to hate her because she doesn't share your 2nd amendment viewpoint.  When you call her a hypocrite without any evidence of your claims, you don't make a very convincing argument.


Have a shitty weekend.

It looks like sun and mild temperatures here for the weekend.  I hope you have a good weekend too.

px4shooter

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #56 on: August 10, 2018, 01:50:30 PM »
Her insider trading deals are enough to make anyone cringe. Granted, they added the Pelosi provision to the laws to stop the Congress critters from doing more of it.

She was never alone in these acts and something had to be done, as it was very common with both parties.

Career politicians are the problem. Their sex doesn't matter. Unlike Hitlary that could not control her emotions, Pelosi has been very consistent.

She has been a promoter of illegal aliens and against the laws of our nation. That is enough.

nereo

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #57 on: August 10, 2018, 02:45:47 PM »
Her insider trading deals are enough to make anyone cringe. Granted, they added the Pelosi provision to the laws to stop the Congress critters from doing more of it.

She was never alone in these acts and something had to be done, as it was very common with both parties.

Career politicians are the problem. Their sex doesn't matter. Unlike Hitlary that could not control her emotions, Pelosi has been very consistent.

She has been a promoter of illegal aliens and against the laws of our nation. That is enough.

I can kinda (sorta) see how one could view her as a 'promoter' of illegal aliens when compared with the proposed policies of immigration-hawks, but what "laws of our nation" has she been against?

TrudgingAlong

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #58 on: August 10, 2018, 03:06:15 PM »
Glad you guys got to the bottom of that lol seemed like you were both making the same point but were still mad at each other. Pretty rare to see that from a non-married couple ;)

Heh, I wasnít mad, but internet speak always sounds like that, ay? It does seem if you say anything that might possibly considered ďrightĒ or ďleftĒ, the taglines come out, though. Annoying as Iím an Independent who floats both sides, depending on the issue.

CindyBS

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #59 on: August 10, 2018, 03:47:41 PM »
There is one very specific thing wrong with Pelosi, in the eyes of the GOP: she doesn't have a penis.  Everything else is just an excuse or an addition to this single problem.

They may also disagree with her on issues, but they disagree with lots of people on issues and yet don't build entire campaigns around hatred for those people.  There are other high profile powerful democrats they don't like, who still don't rise to the same level of vitriol.  The only distinguishing feature of Pelosi, and the reason she is a useful crowbar during campaign seasons, is that lots and lots of Americans still think it is immoral for a woman to have power over men.  If she had a penis, we'd have an entirety different narrative.


Exibit A of this was the special election in OH-12 this past Tuesday.  Ads for Troy Balderson showed O'Conner as a puppet of Pelosi and showed him with photos of Nancy Pelosi, Elizabeth Warren, and Hillary Clinton.   Hillary Clinton is a private citizen and Elizabeth Warren is in a totally different chamber of the Congress.   I notice they did not tie him to liberal men like Ted Lieu, Cory Booker, Sherrod Brown, Chuck Schumer, Bernie Sanders, etc. 

https://youtu.be/WQi2flVVzFU

I only saw a handful of ads since I am not anywhere near the district so I don't know how typical this was of the messaging, but this sexist narrative obviously resonates on some level for Republican voters. 
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 04:02:53 PM by CindyBS »

robartsd

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #60 on: August 10, 2018, 04:18:19 PM »
Citizens have the right to defend themselves across the United States Chris, and Nancy Pelosi has never attempted to prevent them from doing so.  It's completely possible to defend ones self without an M4, a magazine with 20 bullets, and a concealed carry license.
If you feel that you need to carry a gun for self defense, you can't do that in Pelosi's home state unless you are a resident of the state and can convince your sheriff or police chief to issue a concealed carry permit. Although California provides no other legal way to bear arms, according to the 9th circuit the requirements for getting a concealed weapon permit is not a 2nd amendment issue. Many on the right believe Pelosi is really completely anti-gun and her statements are merely politically calculated to move in that direction as practically as possible.

EricL

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #61 on: August 10, 2018, 05:08:58 PM »
Iím not a fan of Pelosiís 2nd Amendment position. Iíd love to see someone younger in her position (and younger across the board in both parties).  But for me, neither is a deal breaker. 

Iíd like to see a serious issue about her raised if such exists. Republicans hating her isnít enough. If she dropped out tomorrow theyíd jump at digging/making up dirt on her replacement ASAP.  And no, having a penis wouldnít help in the least.  The Democratic Partyís anti gun posturing is such that no replacement chosen will have a different position. 

sol

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #62 on: August 10, 2018, 05:25:20 PM »
no replacement chosen will have a different position.

As I stated above, whoever replaces Pelosi some day is going to be more liberal, not less.  Republicans should be campaigning to keep her (and every other septuagenarian in congress) around as long as possible.  Old people have old policies.  Conservatives love old policies.

scottish

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #63 on: August 10, 2018, 05:28:11 PM »
The twists and turns you take to try and make your point are absurd.  Nancy Pelosi is in favor of regular citizens not having the right to defend themselves, which enjoying protection that is unavailable to regular citizens.  I find that offensive. 

Have a shitty weekend.

That's pretty normal in all of the other G8 countries.    Senior government officials are protected by armed security and their citizens aren't allowed to carry concealed weapons around.   (Not sure about the UK though, they may be protected by unarmed security...)

Kris

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #64 on: August 10, 2018, 05:30:06 PM »
The twists and turns you take to try and make your point are absurd.  Nancy Pelosi is in favor of regular citizens not having the right to defend themselves, which enjoying protection that is unavailable to regular citizens.  I find that offensive. 

Have a shitty weekend.

That's pretty normal in all of the other G8 countries.    Senior government officials are protected by armed security and their citizens aren't allowed to carry concealed weapons around.   (Not sure about the UK though, they may be protected by unarmed security...)

Yeah... I can never figure out why people say it's hypocritical for government officials to have actual protection. It's just... kinda ridiculous to compare armed security for public figures who put themselves out there and are at risk as a result, with some dude who wants to open carry an AR.

tralfamadorian

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #65 on: August 10, 2018, 06:18:00 PM »
Unlike Hitlary that could not control her emotions...

Name calling- check!
Bad grammar- check!
Sexism- check!


px4shooter

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #66 on: August 10, 2018, 08:20:27 PM »
Unlike Hitlary that could not control her emotions...

Name calling- check!
Bad grammar- check!
Sexism- check!

How is it sexist?

Because I don't like a person that happens to be a woman, that is sexist? Why not make it racist too?

And my personal dealings with that buffoon makes it even worse!! Oh wait, did I just call her another name?

Kris

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #67 on: August 10, 2018, 08:28:33 PM »
Unlike Hitlary that could not control her emotions...

Name calling- check!
Bad grammar- check!
Sexism- check!

How is it sexist?

Because I don't like a person that happens to be a woman, that is sexist? Why not make it racist too?

And my personal dealings with that buffoon makes it even worse!! Oh wait, did I just call her another name?

I get that you donít know.

That doesnít make it less so.


Paul der Krake

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #68 on: August 10, 2018, 09:01:50 PM »
He advocates that only cops should have [most] guns, which is really easy to do when you always have a cop with a gun with you.  The rest of us great unwashed have no cop with us all the time, so we might find it convenient to have a gun.  "You don't need a gun for security" is pretty hollow from guys who are always followed around by guys with guns for security.
Do you not understand that despite what our mommies told us, we are in fact not all equal in how much we matter, and it's totally reasonable for high profile politicians to have significantly superior protection than complete nobodies like you and I?

sol

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #69 on: August 10, 2018, 09:24:57 PM »
it's totally reasonable for high profile politicians to have significantly superior protection than complete nobodies like you and I?

For many Americans, it's is precisely the ability to purchase efficient murder machines that soothes their insecurity over being a complete nobody.  They need guns to feel powerful, to feel like they matter, to give them purchase in a world where they otherwise have none. 

Especially in cases where they feel that their demographic is losing social status over time as minorities and women become less oppressed, the desire to reassert that authority by wielding firearms only grows.  See:  George Zimmerman (vigilante who shot a black kid), Stephen Paddock (Trump fanatic and anti-government conspiracy theorist behind Las Vegas shooting), Jared Lee Loughner (shot Gabbie Giffords because she was a woman), etc.  These people used guns to fight back against liberalizing American values.

These were crazy people, I grant, and they arguably did horrible things for complex reasons beyond the one I've highlighted here.  But I still think Americans have way too much of a raging hard-on for guns, as part of our twisted sense of moral superiority and toxic masculinity.  Guns are not powerful!  You cannot win a battle of force with the US government, no matter what guns you own.  Democracy is the only way to exert power, but it's collective power shared by everyone and aging middle class white voters without a college education are pretty damn unhappy with that.  They're not used to sharing.


Kris

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #70 on: August 15, 2018, 07:08:53 AM »
From the NYT opinion section a couple of days ago.

Nicholas Carter

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #71 on: August 15, 2018, 11:43:58 AM »
It seems to me that most people's problem with Pelosi and Clinton is that they represent "more of what the government has given you in the last 16 years" to people who don't think that the government has done much good for the last 16 years.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #72 on: August 15, 2018, 12:04:08 PM »
Americans do not value old people or women. Nancy Pelosi is both. That's the unvarnished truthful answer to your question.

OurTown

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #73 on: August 15, 2018, 12:27:30 PM »
If memory serves, she proved to be a very effective Speaker during her tenure starting way back in '07.  I never found her to be shrill or strident, and frankly she is kind of centrist compared with the younger generation.  Over the years as more and more women came into positions of authority people have had to adjust their attitudes.  If a woman in authority was too aggressive, she was a bitch.  If she was too passive, she couldn't lead.  In the working world, by now, in 2018, most of us have had to pack up that baggage and figure out how to deal with women colleagues and superiors.  Part of the anti-Pelosi and anti-Hillary stuff is a reactionary "you can make me work with/for women but you can't make me vote for them." 

J Boogie

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #74 on: August 16, 2018, 12:22:21 PM »
But I still think Americans have way too much of a raging hard-on for guns, as part of our twisted sense of moral superiority and toxic masculinity. 

This is greedy reductionism.  I don't deny there are some widespread unhealthy attitudes towards firearms here in the US, but there are some very legitimate reasons they are regarded with such affection, particularly in western/rural areas.

https://matadornetwork.com/read/mapped-gun-ownership-us/

As far as the affection goes, I think it's kind of a vestigial connection to the frontier life that their ancestors lived. They had to shoot old sick farm animals, varmints, and had to protect themselves as they often settled in wild land that didn't have policing. Traditions are passed down, and still many people out west live in similar circumstances - except instead of no policing, they just have police that are much further away.

People value their autonomy and ability to be self-sufficient. Guns are a crucial tool for them in that regard.






Just Joe

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #75 on: August 16, 2018, 12:29:18 PM »
Guns are still and important tool for some people for all the reasons you mentioned. 

For another group of people it is a lifestyle accessory that signals their politics and religion - and totally unnecessary in day to day life. These same people like to use it as part of their bully agenda which is wholly unacceptable.

Chris22

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #76 on: August 16, 2018, 01:20:11 PM »
He advocates that only cops should have [most] guns, which is really easy to do when you always have a cop with a gun with you.  The rest of us great unwashed have no cop with us all the time, so we might find it convenient to have a gun.  "You don't need a gun for security" is pretty hollow from guys who are always followed around by guys with guns for security.
Do you not understand that despite what our mommies told us, we are in fact not all equal in how much we matter, and it's totally reasonable for high profile politicians to have significantly superior protection than complete nobodies like you and I?

The problem is when people who have security provided for them decide that everyone else doesn't need to be able to provide their own security.  It would be like them exempting themselves from paying taxes and then jacking up every one else's tax bill.  Well of course they don't care because it doesn't affect them. 

GuitarStv

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #77 on: August 16, 2018, 02:23:07 PM »
Quote
As far as the affection goes, I think it's kind of a vestigial connection to the frontier life that their ancestors lived. They had to shoot old sick farm animals, varmints, and had to protect themselves as they often settled in wild land that didn't have policing.

I'm feeling a sense of nostalgia for that melancholy day, years and years ago, when old Bessie got sick and I had to put her down with my AR-15... God bless her -- she's in a better place now.

Hope you had a bump stock for that AR-15, otherwise it just wouldn't have been humane.

Jrr85

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #78 on: August 16, 2018, 02:52:48 PM »
He advocates that only cops should have [most] guns, which is really easy to do when you always have a cop with a gun with you.  The rest of us great unwashed have no cop with us all the time, so we might find it convenient to have a gun.  "You don't need a gun for security" is pretty hollow from guys who are always followed around by guys with guns for security.
Do you not understand that despite what our mommies told us, we are in fact not all equal in how much we matter, and it's totally reasonable for high profile politicians to have significantly superior protection than complete nobodies like you and I?

So a poor person in a bad neighborhood doesn't deserve a chance to defend herself because she's not important? 

I call bullshit.

Kris

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #79 on: August 16, 2018, 03:01:55 PM »
He advocates that only cops should have [most] guns, which is really easy to do when you always have a cop with a gun with you.  The rest of us great unwashed have no cop with us all the time, so we might find it convenient to have a gun.  "You don't need a gun for security" is pretty hollow from guys who are always followed around by guys with guns for security.
Do you not understand that despite what our mommies told us, we are in fact not all equal in how much we matter, and it's totally reasonable for high profile politicians to have significantly superior protection than complete nobodies like you and I?

So a poor person in a bad neighborhood doesn't deserve a chance to defend herself because she's not important? 

I call bullshit.

Because, you know, all people who want gun control are for banning all guns.

Good lord, weíre back at this BS again.

MasterStache

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #80 on: August 16, 2018, 03:07:14 PM »
He advocates that only cops should have [most] guns, which is really easy to do when you always have a cop with a gun with you.  The rest of us great unwashed have no cop with us all the time, so we might find it convenient to have a gun.  "You don't need a gun for security" is pretty hollow from guys who are always followed around by guys with guns for security.
Do you not understand that despite what our mommies told us, we are in fact not all equal in how much we matter, and it's totally reasonable for high profile politicians to have significantly superior protection than complete nobodies like you and I?

So a poor person in a bad neighborhood doesn't deserve a chance to defend herself because she's not important? 

I call bullshit.

Because, you know, all people who want gun control are for banning all guns.

Good lord, weíre back at this BS again.

argumentum ad nauseam

Chris22

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #81 on: August 16, 2018, 03:46:58 PM »
He advocates that only cops should have [most] guns, which is really easy to do when you always have a cop with a gun with you.  The rest of us great unwashed have no cop with us all the time, so we might find it convenient to have a gun.  "You don't need a gun for security" is pretty hollow from guys who are always followed around by guys with guns for security.
Do you not understand that despite what our mommies told us, we are in fact not all equal in how much we matter, and it's totally reasonable for high profile politicians to have significantly superior protection than complete nobodies like you and I?

So a poor person in a bad neighborhood doesn't deserve a chance to defend herself because she's not important? 

I call bullshit.

Because, you know, all people who want gun control are for banning all guns.

Good lord, weíre back at this BS again.

All guns useful for personal protection.  See, Assault weapons and high capacity magazine ban

Kris

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #82 on: August 16, 2018, 03:52:31 PM »
He advocates that only cops should have [most] guns, which is really easy to do when you always have a cop with a gun with you.  The rest of us great unwashed have no cop with us all the time, so we might find it convenient to have a gun.  "You don't need a gun for security" is pretty hollow from guys who are always followed around by guys with guns for security.
Do you not understand that despite what our mommies told us, we are in fact not all equal in how much we matter, and it's totally reasonable for high profile politicians to have significantly superior protection than complete nobodies like you and I?

So a poor person in a bad neighborhood doesn't deserve a chance to defend herself because she's not important? 

I call bullshit.

Because, you know, all people who want gun control are for banning all guns.

Good lord, weíre back at this BS again.

All guns useful for personal protection.  See, Assault weapons and high capacity magazine ban

So, anything that isnít an assault weapon (which I thought was a meaningless term?) and guns with high capacity magazines are worthless for personal protection?

Huh. Why do they exist, then?

MasterStache

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #83 on: August 16, 2018, 03:56:48 PM »
He advocates that only cops should have [most] guns, which is really easy to do when you always have a cop with a gun with you.  The rest of us great unwashed have no cop with us all the time, so we might find it convenient to have a gun.  "You don't need a gun for security" is pretty hollow from guys who are always followed around by guys with guns for security.
Do you not understand that despite what our mommies told us, we are in fact not all equal in how much we matter, and it's totally reasonable for high profile politicians to have significantly superior protection than complete nobodies like you and I?

So a poor person in a bad neighborhood doesn't deserve a chance to defend herself because she's not important? 

I call bullshit.

Because, you know, all people who want gun control are for banning all guns.

Good lord, weíre back at this BS again.

All guns useful for personal protection.  See, Assault weapons and high capacity magazine ban

So, anything that isnít an assault weapon (which I thought was a meaningless term?) and guns with high capacity magazines are worthless for personal protection?

Huh. Why do they exist, then?

No it's a move the goalpost fallacy.

Kris

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #84 on: August 16, 2018, 04:01:19 PM »
He advocates that only cops should have [most] guns, which is really easy to do when you always have a cop with a gun with you.  The rest of us great unwashed have no cop with us all the time, so we might find it convenient to have a gun.  "You don't need a gun for security" is pretty hollow from guys who are always followed around by guys with guns for security.
Do you not understand that despite what our mommies told us, we are in fact not all equal in how much we matter, and it's totally reasonable for high profile politicians to have significantly superior protection than complete nobodies like you and I?

So a poor person in a bad neighborhood doesn't deserve a chance to defend herself because she's not important? 

I call bullshit.

Because, you know, all people who want gun control are for banning all guns.

Good lord, weíre back at this BS again.

All guns useful for personal protection.  See, Assault weapons and high capacity magazine ban

So, anything that isnít an assault weapon (which I thought was a meaningless term?) and guns with high capacity magazines are worthless for personal protection?

Huh. Why do they exist, then?

No it's a move the goalpost fallacy.

Yup. Good point.

But when you donít have a solid argument, any fallacy in a storm, I guess... straw man, then goalpost... wonder what weíll get next?

EricL

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #85 on: August 16, 2018, 04:52:09 PM »
OK, I finally found something I definitely have a beef with Nancy over.  She doesn't want to impeach Trump.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/08/nancy-pelosi-shrugs-off-trump-impeachment-ahead-of-midterm-elections.html

sol

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #86 on: August 16, 2018, 04:57:11 PM »
She doesn't want to impeach Trump.

She's always been a little too pragmatic.  Centrists are often like that.

Glenstache

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #87 on: August 16, 2018, 05:49:58 PM »
Oh, it is so much easier to get your base excited about hating Pelosi than taking about something like policy.

EricL

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #88 on: August 16, 2018, 06:44:29 PM »
She doesn't want to impeach Trump.

She's always been a little too pragmatic.  Centrists are often like that.

Iím not sure keeping that train wreck in office is a pragmatic choice.  At this point itís at best a lie told to placate cowards until an opportunity presents itself.

sol

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #89 on: August 16, 2018, 07:17:28 PM »
Iím not sure keeping that train wreck in office is a pragmatic choice.  At this point itís at best a lie told to placate cowards until an opportunity presents itself.

I'm sort of assuming that Pelosi has her eye on the prize, and is playing the long game.  She's spent a career finding incremental little wins for American progress, sometimes over the strenuous objections of coalition members who definitely did not want to play nice.

In this case, I suspect that she sees the coming populist rebuttal of all things Trump and is patiently weathering the storm until then.  Impeaching him now, before the investigation is even finished, would just agitate his supporters and galvanize what little support he still has.  Why toss over the board when you're already winning the game? 

She also realizes that the Senate will never convict anyway, no matter what the investigation finds.  Trump isn't going to jail no matter what he does, up to and including murdering a war hero on live tv with an original copy of the Constitution rolled up and frozen into an ice pick. 

EricL

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #90 on: August 16, 2018, 08:47:51 PM »
Iím not sure keeping that train wreck in office is a pragmatic choice.  At this point itís at best a lie told to placate cowards until an opportunity presents itself.

I'm sort of assuming that Pelosi has her eye on the prize, and is playing the long game.  She's spent a career finding incremental little wins for American progress, sometimes over the strenuous objections of coalition members who definitely did not want to play nice.

In this case, I suspect that she sees the coming populist rebuttal of all things Trump and is patiently weathering the storm until then.  Impeaching him now, before the investigation is even finished, would just agitate his supporters and galvanize what little support he still has.  Why toss over the board when you're already winning the game? 

She also realizes that the Senate will never convict anyway, no matter what the investigation finds.  Trump isn't going to jail no matter what he does, up to and including murdering a war hero on live tv with an original copy of the Constitution rolled up and frozen into an ice pick.

I would dearly love to see Trump impeached, arrested, tried for treason, and shot by firing squad.  But I'm willing to compromise to just impeachment.  Does that make me a pragmatic centrist?

GuitarStv

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #91 on: August 17, 2018, 06:35:58 AM »
Iím not sure keeping that train wreck in office is a pragmatic choice.  At this point itís at best a lie told to placate cowards until an opportunity presents itself.

I'm sort of assuming that Pelosi has her eye on the prize, and is playing the long game.  She's spent a career finding incremental little wins for American progress, sometimes over the strenuous objections of coalition members who definitely did not want to play nice.

In this case, I suspect that she sees the coming populist rebuttal of all things Trump and is patiently weathering the storm until then.  Impeaching him now, before the investigation is even finished, would just agitate his supporters and galvanize what little support he still has.  Why toss over the board when you're already winning the game? 

She also realizes that the Senate will never convict anyway, no matter what the investigation finds.  Trump isn't going to jail no matter what he does, up to and including murdering a war hero on live tv with an original copy of the Constitution rolled up and frozen into an ice pick.

I would dearly love to see Trump impeached, arrested, tried for treason, and shot by firing squad.  But I'm willing to compromise to just impeachment.  Does that make me a pragmatic centrist?

Sounds more optimistic than pragmatic.

Chris22

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #92 on: August 17, 2018, 09:40:07 AM »
He advocates that only cops should have [most] guns, which is really easy to do when you always have a cop with a gun with you.  The rest of us great unwashed have no cop with us all the time, so we might find it convenient to have a gun.  "You don't need a gun for security" is pretty hollow from guys who are always followed around by guys with guns for security.
Do you not understand that despite what our mommies told us, we are in fact not all equal in how much we matter, and it's totally reasonable for high profile politicians to have significantly superior protection than complete nobodies like you and I?

So a poor person in a bad neighborhood doesn't deserve a chance to defend herself because she's not important? 

I call bullshit.

Because, you know, all people who want gun control are for banning all guns.

Good lord, weíre back at this BS again.

All guns useful for personal protection.  See, Assault weapons and high capacity magazine ban

So, anything that isnít an assault weapon (which I thought was a meaningless term?) and guns with high capacity magazines are worthless for personal protection?

Huh. Why do they exist, then?

No, but the vast vast majority of guns fall into one of those two categories, as the two most popular kinds of guns are "assault rifles" and full-size pistols with large magazines. 

The other categories are either specialized (hunting rifles, shotguns) or relatively esoteric (revolvers, compact carry pistols). 

Again, it's like saying "we're not going to ban cars, just sedans, SUVs, and pickup trucks."  Or "we're not going to ban cell phones, only Samsung and Apple phones."  If you advocate for banning the most popular and common versions of something, that's pretty meaningful. 

Glenstache

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #93 on: August 17, 2018, 10:12:36 AM »
He advocates that only cops should have [most] guns, which is really easy to do when you always have a cop with a gun with you.  The rest of us great unwashed have no cop with us all the time, so we might find it convenient to have a gun.  "You don't need a gun for security" is pretty hollow from guys who are always followed around by guys with guns for security.
Do you not understand that despite what our mommies told us, we are in fact not all equal in how much we matter, and it's totally reasonable for high profile politicians to have significantly superior protection than complete nobodies like you and I?

So a poor person in a bad neighborhood doesn't deserve a chance to defend herself because she's not important? 

I call bullshit.

Because, you know, all people who want gun control are for banning all guns.

Good lord, weíre back at this BS again.

All guns useful for personal protection.  See, Assault weapons and high capacity magazine ban

So, anything that isnít an assault weapon (which I thought was a meaningless term?) and guns with high capacity magazines are worthless for personal protection?

Huh. Why do they exist, then?

No, but the vast vast majority of guns fall into one of those two categories, as the two most popular kinds of guns are "assault rifles" and full-size pistols with large magazines. 

The other categories are either specialized (hunting rifles, shotguns) or relatively esoteric (revolvers, compact carry pistols). 

Again, it's like saying "we're not going to ban cars, just sedans, SUVs, and pickup trucks."  Or "we're not going to ban cell phones, only Samsung and Apple phones."  If you advocate for banning the most popular and common versions of something, that's pretty meaningful.
Some would argue that a shotgun is ideal for home protection, where it is needed. It does not require precise aim, and will penetrate far fewer walls presenting a lower risk to neighbors. Just because something is popular does not mean it is ideal for some purpose. I see a lot of F150s used for daily commute on highways, too.

Kris

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #94 on: August 17, 2018, 10:13:30 AM »
He advocates that only cops should have [most] guns, which is really easy to do when you always have a cop with a gun with you.  The rest of us great unwashed have no cop with us all the time, so we might find it convenient to have a gun.  "You don't need a gun for security" is pretty hollow from guys who are always followed around by guys with guns for security.
Do you not understand that despite what our mommies told us, we are in fact not all equal in how much we matter, and it's totally reasonable for high profile politicians to have significantly superior protection than complete nobodies like you and I?

So a poor person in a bad neighborhood doesn't deserve a chance to defend herself because she's not important? 

I call bullshit.

Because, you know, all people who want gun control are for banning all guns.

Good lord, weíre back at this BS again.

All guns useful for personal protection.  See, Assault weapons and high capacity magazine ban

So, anything that isnít an assault weapon (which I thought was a meaningless term?) and guns with high capacity magazines are worthless for personal protection?

Huh. Why do they exist, then?

No, but the vast vast majority of guns fall into one of those two categories, as the two most popular kinds of guns are "assault rifles" and full-size pistols with large magazines. 

The other categories are either specialized (hunting rifles, shotguns) or relatively esoteric (revolvers, compact carry pistols). 

Again, it's like saying "we're not going to ban cars, just sedans, SUVs, and pickup trucks."  Or "we're not going to ban cell phones, only Samsung and Apple phones."  If you advocate for banning the most popular and common versions of something, that's pretty meaningful.

You're moving the goalposts again. "Popular" and "useful" are not the same thing.

My Beretta 92FS and my S&W M&P Shield are neither assault rifles nor have high-capacity magazines. Are you saying they are useless for personal protection? Because that's what you said above. And that's not what the nice man at the gun range said.

(Oh, also, I see you're commenting again on the forum. You might wanna go check back on the "Let's Speculate about the future of a Trump presidency" thread, since you asked for evidence that Trump has done anti-gay stuff so you could oppose it. And then, when I and especially GuitarStv provided that evidence, you haven't commented on that thread since.

Just FYI, it's on page 58.)

MasterStache

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #95 on: August 18, 2018, 05:22:15 AM »
He advocates that only cops should have [most] guns, which is really easy to do when you always have a cop with a gun with you.  The rest of us great unwashed have no cop with us all the time, so we might find it convenient to have a gun.  "You don't need a gun for security" is pretty hollow from guys who are always followed around by guys with guns for security.
Do you not understand that despite what our mommies told us, we are in fact not all equal in how much we matter, and it's totally reasonable for high profile politicians to have significantly superior protection than complete nobodies like you and I?

So a poor person in a bad neighborhood doesn't deserve a chance to defend herself because she's not important? 

I call bullshit.

Because, you know, all people who want gun control are for banning all guns.

Good lord, weíre back at this BS again.

All guns useful for personal protection.  See, Assault weapons and high capacity magazine ban

So, anything that isnít an assault weapon (which I thought was a meaningless term?) and guns with high capacity magazines are worthless for personal protection?

Huh. Why do they exist, then?

No, but the vast vast majority of guns fall into one of those two categories, as the two most popular kinds of guns are "assault rifles" and full-size pistols with large magazines. 

The other categories are either specialized (hunting rifles, shotguns) or relatively esoteric (revolvers, compact carry pistols). 

Again, it's like saying "we're not going to ban cars, just sedans, SUVs, and pickup trucks."  Or "we're not going to ban cell phones, only Samsung and Apple phones."  If you advocate for banning the most popular and common versions of something, that's pretty meaningful.

You're moving the goalposts again. "Popular" and "useful" are not the same thing.

My Beretta 92FS and my S&W M&P Shield are neither assault rifles nor have high-capacity magazines. Are you saying they are useless for personal protection? Because that's what you said above. And that's not what the nice man at the gun range said.

(Oh, also, I see you're commenting again on the forum. You might wanna go check back on the "Let's Speculate about the future of a Trump presidency" thread, since you asked for evidence that Trump has done anti-gay stuff so you could oppose it. And then, when I and especially GuitarStv provided that evidence, you haven't commented on that thread since.

Just FYI, it's on page 58.)

Well you better switch to a high capacity magazine or semi-auto weapon. You know to leave no doubt the intruder is dead after you riddle him and your home with bullets ( :

Cache_Stash

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #96 on: August 18, 2018, 07:17:07 AM »
Crumbs and the turtle both need to go.

Kris

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #97 on: August 18, 2018, 07:37:01 AM »
He advocates that only cops should have [most] guns, which is really easy to do when you always have a cop with a gun with you.  The rest of us great unwashed have no cop with us all the time, so we might find it convenient to have a gun.  "You don't need a gun for security" is pretty hollow from guys who are always followed around by guys with guns for security.
Do you not understand that despite what our mommies told us, we are in fact not all equal in how much we matter, and it's totally reasonable for high profile politicians to have significantly superior protection than complete nobodies like you and I?

So a poor person in a bad neighborhood doesn't deserve a chance to defend herself because she's not important? 

I call bullshit.

Because, you know, all people who want gun control are for banning all guns.

Good lord, weíre back at this BS again.

All guns useful for personal protection.  See, Assault weapons and high capacity magazine ban

So, anything that isnít an assault weapon (which I thought was a meaningless term?) and guns with high capacity magazines are worthless for personal protection?

Huh. Why do they exist, then?

No, but the vast vast majority of guns fall into one of those two categories, as the two most popular kinds of guns are "assault rifles" and full-size pistols with large magazines. 

The other categories are either specialized (hunting rifles, shotguns) or relatively esoteric (revolvers, compact carry pistols). 

Again, it's like saying "we're not going to ban cars, just sedans, SUVs, and pickup trucks."  Or "we're not going to ban cell phones, only Samsung and Apple phones."  If you advocate for banning the most popular and common versions of something, that's pretty meaningful.

You're moving the goalposts again. "Popular" and "useful" are not the same thing.

My Beretta 92FS and my S&W M&P Shield are neither assault rifles nor have high-capacity magazines. Are you saying they are useless for personal protection? Because that's what you said above. And that's not what the nice man at the gun range said.

(Oh, also, I see you're commenting again on the forum. You might wanna go check back on the "Let's Speculate about the future of a Trump presidency" thread, since you asked for evidence that Trump has done anti-gay stuff so you could oppose it. And then, when I and especially GuitarStv provided that evidence, you haven't commented on that thread since.

Just FYI, it's on page 58.)

Well you better switch to a high capacity magazine or semi-auto weapon. You know to leave no doubt the intruder is dead after you riddle him and your home with bullets ( :

These are both semi-auto. Iím pretty sure all modern pistols are. But damn, I sure wish I had known they were worthless before I bought them. Sigh.

MasterStache

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #98 on: August 18, 2018, 12:12:59 PM »
These are both semi-auto. Iím pretty sure all modern pistols are. But damn, I sure wish I had known they were worthless before I bought them. Sigh.

Well knowing is half the battle. You should look into getting a Stinger MANPAD or 2. The White House uses them for protection, so why can't we all use them?
« Last Edit: August 19, 2018, 04:59:41 AM by MasterStache »

partgypsy

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Re: What's so bad about Nancy Pelosi?
« Reply #99 on: August 18, 2018, 01:06:52 PM »
I think Pelosi has been demonized to death by the right.

The general argument I hear out of people trying to explain why she's so ultra-heinous, is basically that she's super, super Democrat-y.

And there's another thing but I won't say it because no one's gonna admit it anyway.

I'm not sure what you are thinking but the two things I've overheard about her boils down to being a visible mouthy female, and also, that she has had plastic surgery (which apparently is some kind of moral prohibition to holding office).

I don't have strong feelings about her either way, but I'm not Republican.