Author Topic: What's really going on out in the country? Why  (Read 140824 times)

Lski'stash

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #100 on: November 09, 2016, 08:24:55 PM »
I live in a town where Trump won 56% of the vote, and in a county where Hillary won 52% of the vote. My part of the county is unique in that we are far more rural than the majority of the county but still fairly wealthy. We border a county where Trump won 66% of the vote. The people here voting for Trump weren't "others" to me, they were friends , family, neighbors, and small business owners, to name a few. they were men and women and whites and minorities. In this town, and likely the next county over, they were people that were tired of not being able to move forward.

They sent thier kids off to college so they could have a better future only to find the jobs around here weren't like they used to be. Sure, they make enough income to get by, but they struggle daily (their own doing or not, it doesn't matter because they feel the struggle). They are priced out of the housing market as people from the southern part of the county move in and build McMansions and tear down the little houses that people could afford. They don't understand why bathrooms are more important than the homelessness and hunger and infrastructure problems we have. And they are told the economy has recovered but the auto plant the towns used to rely on only runs 2 shifts instead of 3 and have you seen how much it costs to heat your home? I won't kid that religion and abortion and guns don't play into it. These people hunt to feed their families on the state land or farm down the road.

These people feel as though the American dream is out of reach. They make just enough to get by but not enough to get help to get ahead. They feel forgotten and stretched and exhausted. College educated or not, they want change. They will take the risk because it might be different. For the first time in a quarter century in this town, people were passionate and every weekend for the last two months the one road in and out of this town has been filled with people holding signs advocating Trump.  They don't really care if they are called racist or sexist. They have been hearing it for years from the city for various reasons and they are sick of tripping over words and actions only to be accused of the very thing they were trying to avoid anyway. And sometimes they just think everyone is too damn sensitive about what is consisted racism and sexism anymore because around here, asking a question to try to learn something about another race can get you labeled as a racist.

I'm from Michigan, and this is pretty close to the sentiment of the people I know who voted for Trump. I don't know if any of them actually expected him to win though, judging from the faces and comments this morning. There's a lot of very cautious optimism today where I live.

Many of the people I know who voted for Trump have had a really rough ten years economically. They can't get ahead of the bills, and nothing has been done to change that. With the recent rise insurance deductibles, fuel was only added to the flames. Job training is expensive, and it's no garentee. My father-in-law lost his job in 2008, went and got his bachelor's degree in his 40's, but can't find a job in his new field because of his age. He currently drives an hour and a half to work everyday to a job he doesn't care for. So, if someone is promising him, and the MANY others like him a way out, even if it's a pipe dream, I'm sure he'd vote for him. Hell, reflecting on his situation actually makes me want to vote for Trump (I didn't).

As for the racist and sexist sentiments. While it was enough to sway myself away from a loose cannon ant-establishment candidate, it was definitely not enough for most BECAUSE of who he was running against. It became a weak argument. I don't think anyone I know who voted for Trump is racist. A little isolated by a lot of land and possibly ignorant of urban and racial issues, sure. But not racist. They are working class, who get fucked because they make just enough money to live above the poverty line, but not enough to receive support from the government. They work two jobs just to make what many in the city make with one job. Please make no mistake, the big divider in this country is socio-economic-status. Trump is using illegal immigration as a scapegoat, which I guess is swaying a few, but not most.

Also, just a note, many of the people that I know probably would have supported Bernie (like the father-in-law). Not the evangelicals, but the establishment Republicans I know would have voted for him. They just couldn't bring themselves to vote for possibly the most hated Democrats in recent history. 


Radagast

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #101 on: November 09, 2016, 11:02:49 PM »
Here in my strange corner of the world, lots of people are just old fashioned. They are literally the Party of Lincoln, or maybe Roosevelt I, with ideologies translated through tiny remote towns and old families from 100 years ago straight to today. To their minds they are not any more racist than Lincoln was, though many modern people would likely call him that. (This is one of my views on them, reality is more complex). They despised Trump and his mouth and his excesses, especially the women, but most voted for him anyhow because they wanted conservative Supreme Court appointees. The local crowd though did not have enough numbers to sway the election, and obviously they were not the ones who blew the polls because they have been consistent for a hundred years. Still nationally this group accounts for several points of the Republican vote I guess.

Oh and some of the small handful of older Democrats around here as far as I can tell are ideological hybrids of Andrew Jackson and Barrack Obama, which strains the imagination but I think may be an accurate description of one or two.

bacchi

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #102 on: November 09, 2016, 11:08:58 PM »
Also, just a note, many of the people that I know probably would have supported Bernie (like the father-in-law). Not the evangelicals, but the establishment Republicans I know would have voted for him. They just couldn't bring themselves to vote for possibly the most hated Democrats in recent history.

I keep reading this but I'm not buying it. Bernie was a self identified socialist. Think how that would play out in the attack ads. If Obama was a socialist just for being...an African-American Democrat (?), a real (democratic) socialist would've been killed.

--------
"He's a socialist."
<Bernie sound clip declaring himself a socialist>
<background image of a hammer and sickle>

"Socialists want to abolish private property."
<background image of a Soviet collective farm>

"Do you like standing in line for your sugar?"
<background image of a Soviet food line>
--------

Bernie wouldn't have had a prayer.

Metric Mouse

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #103 on: November 10, 2016, 01:16:15 AM »
Also, just a note, many of the people that I know probably would have supported Bernie (like the father-in-law). Not the evangelicals, but the establishment Republicans I know would have voted for him. They just couldn't bring themselves to vote for possibly the most hated Democrats in recent history.

I keep reading this but I'm not buying it. Bernie was a self identified socialist. Think how that would play out in the attack ads. If Obama was a socialist just for being...an African-American Democrat (?), a real (democratic) socialist would've been killed.

--------
"He's a socialist."
<Bernie sound clip declaring himself a socialist>
<background image of a hammer and sickle>

"Socialists want to abolish private property."
<background image of a Soviet collective farm>

"Do you like standing in line for your sugar?"
<background image of a Soviet food line>
--------

Bernie wouldn't have had a prayer.

If he would have been the Democrat nominee, would he have lost the same number of votes to Johnson and Stein that Hillary did? Maybe republicans wouldn't have voted for him, but if all the democrats, and most of the independents would have, it would be a much different story today.

Johnez

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #104 on: November 10, 2016, 01:25:29 AM »
He sure would have energized the party. Probably safest bet would have been old Joe though. Nobody holding their nose or staying home in protest...

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #105 on: November 10, 2016, 07:55:13 AM »
Maaaaybe. Or maybe your opponent is not an evil cartoon villain bent on world domination, but just someone with different priorities than you. I strongly disagreed with 25% of his positions and as a person I think he's pretty horrible, but I agreed with the other 75%. Way more than Clinton.

For me this wasn't enough so I voted 3rd party, but it's narrow minded to believe that all those people who held their noses and voted for Trump are racist. Caring more about other issues doesn't make you a bad person.

In terms of actual polices (to the extent he had them) that weren't sex or race-related, I could probably find a large fraction to agree with too.

But that doesn't matter, because it would still be morally reprehensible to vote for an unethical, bigoted sociopath even if his policies were perfect!

Caring about some issues more than others doesn't make you a bad person, but failing to care about a candidate's ethics does.

There's no such thing as an ethical political candidate. They're all sleazebags one way or another. Very few people get to a high level in politics by being anything other than a sociopathic liar and quite possibly a predator, and nobody stays in office unless he or she is willing to corrupt that office so as to advance a personal agenda that happens to be in alignment with what the majority wants.

Simply electing a person to do a job is deemed un-American these days. People who compromise or adjust their positions are seeing as not having "strong" beliefs or morality, and an unbending, monomaniacal fixation on one's own rectitude is considered mandatory for any kind of public service. Whether the job actually gets done isn't important to Americans anymore.

deadlymonkey

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #106 on: November 10, 2016, 07:59:02 AM »
Stealing this from another forum, but it is fairly accurate. 

TLDR version:  A rural, blue collar middle class was a temporary function of post WWII.  Due to automation and the fact that all our competitors aren't smoking craters anymore, it will NEVER come back.  I get that this group of people is very disaffected by the modern economy but what is the solution?  Is there a solution?  Even if you set up complete embargos on imported goods, those factories will not come back and employ people in the numbers they used to.

"
As an aside, this while election process has made me realize just how crippled American politics is by our relatively short national history. The entire election narrative, and really the entire conflict narrative that we've been dealing with over the last 4 - 8 years, is based on assumptions we made about what America is that are derived entirely from a 20 year period of time about half a century ago.

The whole idea of a strong middle class based on blue collar manufacturing work is an idea that really only existed from about 1945 to 1965 (with a brief resurgence under Clinton from 1993 to 2000). That was the only time in American history that a blue collar middle class existed, was a sizeable portion of the population, and has more relative economic power than the upper class. And the real kicker, to me, is that it wasn't even real. Not in the sense that it never happened, because it did, but in the sense that it was a momentary ephemera caused by completely unique circumstances almost entirely beyond our control. It was the post-war economy, and the fact that every single one of our global competitors was either a smoking crater, or as yet untouched by "modern civilization". The only time in US history that a strong, solvent, largely rural middle class was a reality was at a time when we were literally the only game in town.

Before WW2, most of the country lived in a state of either subsistence dirt farming, or urban conditions reminiscent of China circa a decade ago. By the late 60s, wage growth has effectively flat-lined, and was in full on decline by the time the 70s came around. Both before and after the period of 1945-1965, the only way into what we conceptualize as a "middle class" was either an educated profession (including the skilled trades in this one), or business ownership. Other than that tiny window, we have ALWAYS been a nation where comfort and security required education or entrepreneurship, and nothing we have ever done has made a damn bit of difference.

So this decade, and likely the next one, are built on a narrative that is itself little more than the nostalgia of the boomers for two short decades of their youth, and one decade that happened to coincide with their peak earning years, that were entirely the result of complete random chance the likes of which we will never see again unless we bomb Europe, China, Japan, India, and Latin America to rubble. Think about that. Donald Trump is entirely the result of shiatty Boomer nostalgia for a time that barely existed and that literally no one can ever make happen again. Our entire political zeitgeist is based on a fluke from 60 years ago.
"

mtnrider

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #107 on: November 10, 2016, 08:23:58 AM »
I buy the rural poor/decaying small towns argument, but that doesn't explain the huge swathes of college educated whites who like Trump.

Really only racism does.

In my travels across the northeast (us yankees, yeah), among college-educated Trump supporters I've seen

 - people who like his stance on immigration.  These are older and dislike job competition.
 - people voting on a religious stance, again older.
 - people who just want a republican in office without being able to give policy reasons.  These are younger, some had called him crazy during the primary.

A few said that any woman couldn't be a good commander.  None had racist reasons.

However, I'd be willing to bet that was different south of the mason-dixon line, based on my facebook feed.



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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #108 on: November 10, 2016, 08:37:50 AM »
In my travels across the northeast (us yankees, yeah), among college-educated Trump supporters I've seen...None had racist reasons.

However, I'd be willing to bet that was different south of the mason-dixon line, based on my facebook feed.

And I'd be willing to bet that you have your head up your own ass, and are part of the reason Trump was elected,
MOD NOTE: PERSONAL ATTACKS WILL NOT BE TOLERATED. Keep the debate healthy and respectful of differing personal viewpoints or don't engage. you believe that to be an accurate assessment. The more blame that I see being placed on "racist southerners" for this election result, the more I start to understand why so many of my fellow citizens voted for Trump. And I say that as a progressive who was eager to cast my vote for Hillary.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2016, 07:23:22 PM by swick »

deadlymonkey

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #109 on: November 10, 2016, 08:41:34 AM »
Are there lines getting crossed?  The racist argument primarily stems from the alt-right endorsement of Trump by the KKK and stuff.  They are obviously racists but I think the core attraction was Xenophobia, not racism.  There isn't (at least that I see) a culture of trump supporters that say Mexicans, muslims, blacks etc... are inherently bad (racism) but rather that they would prefer for them to be elsewhere or at least perfectly assimilated to the local culture (xenophobia).

Midwest

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #110 on: November 10, 2016, 08:51:56 AM »
Are there lines getting crossed?  The racist argument primarily stems from the alt-right endorsement of Trump by the KKK and stuff.  They are obviously racists but I think the core attraction was Xenophobia, not racism.  There isn't (at least that I see) a culture of trump supporters that say Mexicans, muslims, blacks etc... are inherently bad (racism) but rather that they would prefer for them to be elsewhere or at least perfectly assimilated to the local culture (xenophobia).

Wanting controlled immigration isn't xenophobia.  Most Trump voters I know disagreed with many of his comments about Muslims and Mexicans, but also disagree with open borders position advocated by some democrats.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #111 on: November 10, 2016, 08:54:35 AM »
Stealing this from another forum, but it is fairly accurate. 

TLDR version:  A rural, blue collar middle class was a temporary function of post WWII.  Due to automation and the fact that all our competitors aren't smoking craters anymore, it will NEVER come back.  I get that this group of people is very disaffected by the modern economy but what is the solution?  Is there a solution?  Even if you set up complete embargos on imported goods, those factories will not come back and employ people in the numbers they used to.

You're right about the automated industrial jobs, but there has always been a rural, blue collar middle class and they have always made up the majority of the country. Prior to the Industrial Revolution, land was the primary means of economic production.

Small towns are economically viable provided there's a local industry that produces a net regional export to draw money in from outside the region. Every town needs at least one industry that brings reliable money in from the outside to balance things people buy from outside the town.

The blue collar workers in small towns have never been factory workers, although the people who are involved with the regional export industry sometimes work at a scale that requires automation. If you work in the grain elevator, the local mine or quarry, the pet food factory or the meat packing plant, those jobs can be affected by globalization if what you produce suddenly becomes cheaper elsewhere.

The vast majority of the blue collar workers in small towns are people who are exchanging goods and labor with each other. I'm talking about mechanics, bank tellers, plumbers, machinists, bartenders, family restaurant owners, and the people who own the dry cleaning shop. There's always a florist, a daycare service, and a funeral parlor. Sometimes there's a gym. There's someone who runs the dump, someone who empties septic tanks, and someone else who drives a school bus. You've got a handful of police officers, a fire department that might be volunteer, and some local industries. There's always a tire and auto parts shop, a motel, and a few things for people to do for fun like a pool hall or some bowling lanes. Maybe there's a swimming pool or park that requires maintenance. Someone gets paid to do that. There might be a small hospital or old folks' home, and if so, somebody gets paid to empty the bedpans and wash the floors. There's always a feed store.

The blue collar work in small towns has one attribute that doesn't apply in big cities: it's ALL entrepreneurial. The owners and operators are the same people, you won't see a lot of franchise businesses, and people employ friends and family. There's not a lot of "professional" work available that requires an advanced degree. Only about one percent of the adults in town need one to be an attorney, a veterinarian, or an accountant.

Quote
"
As an aside, this while election process has made me realize just how crippled American politics is by our relatively short national history. The entire election narrative, and really the entire conflict narrative that we've been dealing with over the last 4 - 8 years, is based on assumptions we made about what America is that are derived entirely from a 20 year period of time about half a century ago.

The whole idea of a strong middle class based on blue collar manufacturing work is an idea that really only existed from about 1945 to 1965 (with a brief resurgence under Clinton from 1993 to 2000). That was the only time in American history that a blue collar middle class existed, was a sizeable portion of the population, and has more relative economic power than the upper class. And the real kicker, to me, is that it wasn't even real. Not in the sense that it never happened, because it did, but in the sense that it was a momentary ephemera caused by completely unique circumstances almost entirely beyond our control. It was the post-war economy, and the fact that every single one of our global competitors was either a smoking crater, or as yet untouched by "modern civilization". The only time in US history that a strong, solvent, largely rural middle class was a reality was at a time when we were literally the only game in town.
No, small towns have always been economically viable once they reach critical mass, provided they can create a net export.
Quote
Before WW2, most of the country lived in a state of either subsistence dirt farming, or urban conditions reminiscent of China circa a decade ago. By the late 60s, wage growth has effectively flat-lined, and was in full on decline by the time the 70s came around. Both before and after the period of 1945-1965, the only way into what we conceptualize as a "middle class" was either an educated profession (including the skilled trades in this one), or business ownership. Other than that tiny window, we have ALWAYS been a nation where comfort and security required education or entrepreneurship, and nothing we have ever done has made a damn bit of difference.
Most of the "subsistence dirt farming" was the result of a disastrous federal policy that encouraged people to move into land not suitable for raising grain. The dryland farming initiative helped create the Dust Bowl.

Entrepreneurship and small business ownership have always been the best path to material comfort. This is true in small towns just as it was in the days of the Founding Fathers. However, federal policies of the last decade or two have systematically stifled small scale entrepreneurship in favor of large scale corporate employment. Large scale corporate employment doesn't happen much in a small town. You might persuade a major corporation to build a data center, call center, or bill processing facility but for the most part you're better off with a meat packing plant. That way if people stop buying what you produce, the results are still edible.

Quote
So this decade, and likely the next one, are built on a narrative that is itself little more than the nostalgia of the boomers for two short decades of their youth, and one decade that happened to coincide with their peak earning years, that were entirely the result of complete random chance the likes of which we will never see again unless we bomb Europe, China, Japan, India, and Latin America to rubble. Think about that. Donald Trump is entirely the result of shiatty Boomer nostalgia for a time that barely existed and that literally no one can ever make happen again. Our entire political zeitgeist is based on a fluke from 60 years ago.
"

Middle America isn't butthurt solely because of their nostalgia for the brief flash in the pan known as the post-war boom. They're angry because the collapse of the boom is being made far worse because of federal policies and initiatives. Every federal initiative set up to "help" the economy since about 1980 has benefited large scale corporations at the expense of small entrepreneurs, and hampered individuals' abilities to take actions in their own best economic interests. This tends to cause money in the private sector to flow away from the small entrepreneurs and toward the high and low extremes of the economic scale.

It is true that "red" states receive more in welfare and transfer payments than "blue" states, however the money tends to go to people besides the ones getting hurt by over-regulation or failed government policies.

Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #112 on: November 10, 2016, 09:03:05 AM »
Are there lines getting crossed?  The racist argument primarily stems from the alt-right endorsement of Trump by the KKK and stuff.  They are obviously racists but I think the core attraction was Xenophobia, not racism.  There isn't (at least that I see) a culture of trump supporters that say Mexicans, muslims, blacks etc... are inherently bad (racism) but rather that they would prefer for them to be elsewhere or at least perfectly assimilated to the local culture (xenophobia).

Xenophobia is a far bigger problem than racism. I've lived in the South my whole life, and I don't know a single white person who believes their own race to be inherently superior (I know they exist, but I don't know who they are, and frankly there aren't many of them). I know plenty of people, on the other hand, who believe that their own culture is inherently superior. These people are warmly welcoming of people of other races who think, talk, and act like they do. They have little tolerance or patience for anyone - regardless of their race - who hold starkly differently believes. Their greatest contempt is not for Mexicans, Muslims, or poor blacks, but for the "liberal elite" who have vastly different cultural values. And frankly, as inclusive as many liberals purport to be, it seems clear that they suffer from their own share of xenophobia based on their attitudes towards rural, conservative whites.

FINate

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #113 on: November 10, 2016, 09:33:27 AM »
Middle America isn't butthurt solely because of their nostalgia for the brief flash in the pan known as the post-war boom. They're angry because the collapse of the boom is being made far worse because of federal policies and initiatives. Every federal initiative set up to "help" the economy since about 1980 has benefited large scale corporations at the expense of small entrepreneurs, and hampered individuals' abilities to take actions in their own best economic interests. This tends to cause money in the private sector to flow away from the small entrepreneurs and toward the high and low extremes of the economic scale.

YES, THIS^^^ One of the blatant contradictions in politics today is anti big business rhetoric while doing little/nothing to help small entrepreneurs. Make no mistake about it, big corporations LIKE burdensome regulations, they fear competition above all else and regulations create barriers to entry, and they know they can influence regulators with their $$$.  My left-leaning friends (many here in CA) either work for big corporations or for government - they have no concept of what it's like to run a small business or to live in an area where there are few professional employment opportunities. In fact, they look down their noses at these areas...which is odd for people claiming to care about the plight of the poor. And it's not just the feds, in CA we pile on even more regulations. We now have a case pending of a single mom facing potential jail time for occasionally selling homemade ceviche via a Facebook group.

bacchi

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #114 on: November 10, 2016, 09:39:09 AM »
Are there lines getting crossed?  The racist argument primarily stems from the alt-right endorsement of Trump by the KKK and stuff.  They are obviously racists but I think the core attraction was Xenophobia, not racism.  There isn't (at least that I see) a culture of trump supporters that say Mexicans, muslims, blacks etc... are inherently bad (racism) but rather that they would prefer for them to be elsewhere or at least perfectly assimilated to the local culture (xenophobia).

Xenophobia is a far bigger problem than racism. I've lived in the South my whole life, and I don't know a single white person who believes their own race to be inherently superior (I know they exist, but I don't know who they are, and frankly there aren't many of them). I know plenty of people, on the other hand, who believe that their own culture is inherently superior. These people are warmly welcoming of people of other races who think, talk, and act like they do. They have little tolerance or patience for anyone - regardless of their race - who hold starkly differently believes. Their greatest contempt is not for Mexicans, Muslims, or poor blacks, but for the "liberal elite" who have vastly different cultural values. And frankly, as inclusive as many liberals purport to be, it seems clear that they suffer from their own share of xenophobia based on their attitudes towards rural, conservative whites.

I can direct you to some towns in East Texas that don't like people DWB.

Look, there has always been a racist contingent of the Republican party. They were going to vote for Trump anyway. Trump pulled in the groups you describe who are more...nationalist, which is also potentially scary, but aren't quite the same as "racists." I guess "nationalist" is the wrong word, since skinheads are "nationalist," so "culturalist" will work.

That's just not the group [the racists] that pushed him over the edge in WI and PA. We get it. However, he still got the votes, didn't he, even when he was calling out Mexicans and handicapped and women and Muslims?

That really changes politics. It means that a politician can appeal to the racist element, to invigorate Duke and the KKK and the silent racists, but also not dissuade those who want change, as long as the politician appeals to the change.

« Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 09:42:50 AM by bacchi »

Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #115 on: November 10, 2016, 09:51:37 AM »
That really changes politics. It means that a politician can appeal to the racist element, to invigorate Duke and the KKK and the silent racists, but also not dissuade those who want change, as long as the politician appeals to the change.

I'm shocked about this as well, but everyone needs to understand that, given that Trump pulled in more blacks, Hispanics, and Asians than Romney did, there is something deeper going on here than just "racism". It was an easy answer when everyone just assumed that minorities would rebuke him in historic numbers, but clearly many of them saw more opportunity than hatred. It would serve us well to understand why.

mtnrider

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #116 on: November 10, 2016, 09:56:10 AM »
In my travels across the northeast (us yankees, yeah), among college-educated Trump supporters I've seen...None had racist reasons.

However, I'd be willing to bet that was different south of the mason-dixon line, based on my facebook feed.

And I'd be willing to bet that you have your head up your own ass, and are part of the reason Trump was elected, if you believe that to be an accurate assessment. The more blame that I see being placed on "racist southerners" for this election result, the more I start to understand why so many of my fellow citizens voted for Trump. And I say that as a progressive who was eager to cast my vote for Hillary.

I apologize for offending you.  I'm, of course, not saying that racist southerners put Trump into office.  Outright racism is too small a constituency.  Clinton was an uncompelling candidate and didn't fully motivate her coalition.  I think this was largely a referendum on the economy of rural areas.

I am, however, saying that people who are racists voted for Trump.  And that there seems to be more organized racism in the south.  At least in MY FB feed, I don't hear much about the KKK or the JBS in, Maine, for instance.  Yes, a FB feed is anecdotal.




bacchi

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #117 on: November 10, 2016, 10:04:17 AM »
That really changes politics. It means that a politician can appeal to the racist element, to invigorate Duke and the KKK and the silent racists, but also not dissuade those who want change, as long as the politician appeals to the change.

I'm shocked about this as well, but everyone needs to understand that, given that Trump pulled in more blacks, Hispanics, and Asians than Romney did, there is something deeper going on here than just "racism". It was an easy answer when everyone just assumed that minorities would rebuke him in historic numbers, but clearly many of them saw more opportunity than hatred. It would serve us well to understand why.

It's questionable whether Asians supported him more than Romney. I see conflicting reports.

There could be more than one reason. It doesn't have to all hinge on the "we've been left behind" narrative, though certainly much of it does.

FINate

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #118 on: November 10, 2016, 10:13:53 AM »
Look, there has always been a racist contingent of the Republican party. They were going to vote for Trump anyway. Trump pulled in the groups you describe who are more...nationalist, which is also potentially scary, but aren't quite the same as "racists." I guess "nationalist" is the wrong word, since skinheads are "nationalist," so "culturalist" will work.

LOL you might want to check your assumptions. The Dems also have their fair share of deplorables . From http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/are-white-republicans-more-racist-than-white-democrats/:

Quote
There are white racists in both parties. By most questions, they represent a minority of white voters in both parties. They probably represent a slightly larger minority of white Republicans than white Democrats.

Also, at the risk of being overly pedantic, since you're making the claim that "has always been a racist contingent of the Republican party" you should look back at the extremely racist history of the Democratic party. It's a different party now, but it's important to be careful about making such blanket statements that are historically incorrect.

mtnrider

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #119 on: November 10, 2016, 10:19:37 AM »
Xenophobia is a far bigger problem than racism. I've lived in the South my whole life, and I don't know a single white person who believes their own race to be inherently superior (I know they exist, but I don't know who they are, and frankly there aren't many of them). I know plenty of people, on the other hand, who believe that their own culture is inherently superior. These people are warmly welcoming of people of other races who think, talk, and act like they do. They have little tolerance or patience for anyone - regardless of their race - who hold starkly differently believes.

This.  We agree.  This is also a problem in the northeast, outside of the cities.

Their greatest contempt is not for Mexicans, Muslims, or poor blacks, but for the "liberal elite" who have vastly different cultural values. And frankly, as inclusive as many liberals purport to be, it seems clear that they suffer from their own share of xenophobia based on their attitudes towards rural, conservative whites.

I have straddled the city and rural cultures up here, and agree as well.  It's a misunderstanding on both sides.  The rural folks live in old milltowns and want the good paying forest jobs to come back.  Many of them have never even been Bangor, let alone Boston or New York.  They sometimes resent the tourists from the cities, up here with fancy toys, and who see the huge swaths of paper forest as recreational areas their personal playground, from recreation to conservation.

The rural culture is largely dying though.  It's unsupportable economically.  In the few places where harvesting still takes place, it's heavily mechanized.



« Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 10:42:32 AM by mtnrider »

Jack

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #120 on: November 10, 2016, 10:26:35 AM »
And that there seems to be more organized racism in the south.

The only thing worse than bigotry is being ignorant of your bigotry. You see southerners as "acceptable targets" and it needs to stop right the fuck now.

TheInsuranceMan

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #121 on: November 10, 2016, 10:28:43 AM »
I buy the rural poor/decaying small towns argument, but that doesn't explain the huge swathes of college educated whites who like Trump.

Really only racism does.

. And this is bigger and nastier than just racism, it's something along the lines of cultural sadism.


Ahhh...liberals on the verge of throwing tantrums.  Cultural Sadism?  Are you serious Clark?  Take a step back from the ledge....

bacchi

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #122 on: November 10, 2016, 10:30:10 AM »
Look, there has always been a racist contingent of the Republican party. They were going to vote for Trump anyway. Trump pulled in the groups you describe who are more...nationalist, which is also potentially scary, but aren't quite the same as "racists." I guess "nationalist" is the wrong word, since skinheads are "nationalist," so "culturalist" will work.

LOL you might want to check your assumptions. The Dems also have their fair share of deplorables . From http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/are-white-republicans-more-racist-than-white-democrats/:

Yeah, I figured. Your link doesn't disagree with my assumption, though, which you bolded. There just happen to be some in the Democratic party too. Or do you disagree with my assumption that they would've voted for Trump anyway? Maybe they voted for Johnson, perhaps?

Quote
Also, at the risk of being overly pedantic, since you're making the claim that "has always been a racist contingent of the Republican party" you should look back at the extremely racist history of the Democratic party. It's a different party now, but it's important to be careful about making such blanket statements that are historically incorrect.

To be overly pedantic back, there were certainly racists in the Republican party in 1880 as well. In any case, I meant the modern Republican party. Thanks for the reminder.

mtnrider

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #123 on: November 10, 2016, 10:39:10 AM »
And that there seems to be more organized racism in the south.

The only thing worse than bigotry is being ignorant of your bigotry. You see southerners as "acceptable targets" and it needs to stop right the fuck now.

Educate me.  I only have my own experience to fall back on.  But please also be aware of your own biases.

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #124 on: November 10, 2016, 10:47:23 AM »
I have straddled the city and rural cultures up here, and agree as well.  It's a misunderstanding on both sides.  The rural folks live in old milltowns and want the good paying forest jobs to come back.  Many of them have never even been Bangor, let alone Boston or New York.  They sometimes resent the tourists from the cities, up here with fancy toys, and who see the huge swaths of paper forest as recreational areas.

The rural culture is largely dying though.  It's unsupportable economically.  In the few places where harvesting still takes place, it's heavily mechanized.

I'm a forester, so I know what you're talking about. I've lived in regions of Mississippi where 3 out of 4 vehicles on any given road during the day was a log truck (no exaggeration). And you know what? Rural will never die, but it is changing. Opportunities are sparser and riskier. To be a productive logger requires about $1-2 million in debt to purchase your equipment, and they can harvest as much in a single day as 100 men with chainsaws could sixty years ago. If you're lucky you might make as much as a lawyer or a doctor in a good year. If you're unlucky, then one bad year can bankrupt you (and I knew many "unlucky" loggers during the financial crisis).

I bought a house in Mississippi for $135,000 in 2011, during what I assumed was the nadir of the economic crisis. I sold it this year for $105,000 after it languished on the market for 18 months. That town is dying, and the slow economic recovery that the rest of nation is complaining about is still a goddamn depression in their world. Do I think Trump can fix their problems? Nope, industrialization and automation is taking over the forest industry, just like every other, and there's nothing anybody can do about it. From their perspective, I can understand why they'd be angry at people who dismiss them as ignorant bigots. Change is hard, and frankly if they wanted change, they'd have left already. I wanted change, so that's what I did.

FINate

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #125 on: November 10, 2016, 10:49:38 AM »
Yeah, I figured. Your link doesn't disagree with my assumption, though, which you bolded. There just happen to be some in the Democratic party too. Or do you disagree with my assumption that they would've voted for Trump anyway? Maybe they voted for Johnson, perhaps?

Both parties contain racists. And while the Rs have slightly more than the Ds, it's a small minority in both. When people put "Republican party" and "racist" in the same sentence without mentioning that Democrats have pretty much the same issue, that doesn't sit well with me.

I think economic concerns were the driving force of this election and that Hillary lost a big chunk of the union vote (the workers, not the leadership) and the working class. Except for very hard-core overt racists (likely a *very* small number) people prioritize their pocket books over discomfort/dislike of other groups.

bacchi

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #126 on: November 10, 2016, 10:56:29 AM »
I think economic concerns were the driving force of this election and that Hillary lost a big chunk of the union vote (the workers, not the leadership) and the working class. Except for very hard-core overt racists (likely a *very* small number) people prioritize their pocket books over discomfort/dislike of other groups.

Agreed.

Jack

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #127 on: November 10, 2016, 11:01:22 AM »
And that there seems to be more organized racism in the south.

The only thing worse than bigotry is being ignorant of your bigotry. You see southerners as "acceptable targets" and it needs to stop right the fuck now.

Educate me.  I only have my own experience to fall back on.  But please also be aware of your own biases.

The South was the birthplace of the civil rights movement. Huge swaths of it -- particularly the cities and large strips running across the Fall Line and along the Mississipi River -- are hardly less progressive than NYC or SF. Pretending that those parts of the South don't exist is hugely ignorant and bigoted in and of itself.

Also, consider this map:



See all that red up in NY, PA, OH and WV, and the distinct lack of red through vast swaths of GA, FL and even Texas?
« Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 11:22:19 AM by Jack »

TexasRunner

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #128 on: November 10, 2016, 11:18:59 AM »
it wasn't meant as a put down, simply replace uneducated with - middle class folks without a high school degree or no post secondary degree.

"He's the anti-establishment candidate. He is not liked by the political elites of either party, including W."

The above statement is what I don't get. Trump is part of the establishment, he has used it to further his fortune. He holds on to his fortune because the US has been an oligarchy for quite some time. To blame D.C. for that is strange, it's guys like Trump that make the system what it is. I don't see how anyone can believe this guy is going to create protectionist trade policies.

How the HELL does no one question this?...

I can understand if you were to categorize 'uneducated' under no HS degree but I would definitely hesitate to call those with a HS diploma or even an associate's degree 'uneducated'.

Only about 12% of the population 25 and over does not have a HS diploma...  and there were (obviously) a shit ton of people with bachelor's degrees or higher who voted for DT.  Your elitism is showing and doing absolutely nothing to advance or reunite this country by insinuating lower intelligence via the stigma of a certain level of educational attainment.  I'm directing this at you specifically human, but really I mean this towards everyone who keeps directing elitism by calling 48% of the country "uneducated, diplorable, racist, bigot misogynist":  SHUT UP AND STOP WITH THE STEREOTYPES, IT ISN'T HELPING THE CONVERSATION.

Jack

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #129 on: November 10, 2016, 11:21:03 AM »
Quote
Also, at the risk of being overly pedantic, since you're making the claim that "has always been a racist contingent of the Republican party" you should look back at the extremely racist history of the Democratic party. It's a different party now, but it's important to be careful about making such blanket statements that are historically incorrect.

To be overly pedantic back, there were certainly racists in the Republican party in 1880 as well. In any case, I meant the modern Republican party. Thanks for the reminder.

The racists moved from the Democratic party to the Republican party in the '70s-'80s. See Southern Strategy.

mtnrider

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #130 on: November 10, 2016, 11:22:03 AM »
I have straddled the city and rural cultures up here, and agree as well.  It's a misunderstanding on both sides.  The rural folks live in old milltowns and want the good paying forest jobs to come back.  Many of them have never even been Bangor, let alone Boston or New York.  They sometimes resent the tourists from the cities, up here with fancy toys, and who see the huge swaths of paper forest as recreational areas.

The rural culture is largely dying though.  It's unsupportable economically.  In the few places where harvesting still takes place, it's heavily mechanized.

I'm a forester, so I know what you're talking about. I've lived in regions of Mississippi where 3 out of 4 vehicles on any given road during the day was a log truck (no exaggeration). And you know what? Rural will never die, but it is changing. Opportunities are sparser and riskier. To be a productive logger requires about $1-2 million in debt to purchase your equipment, and they can harvest as much in a single day as 100 men with chainsaws could sixty years ago. If you're lucky you might make as much as a lawyer or a doctor in a good year. If you're unlucky, then one bad year can bankrupt you (and I knew many "unlucky" loggers during the financial crisis).

I bought a house in Mississippi for $135,000 in 2011, during what I assumed was the nadir of the economic crisis. I sold it this year for $105,000 after it languished on the market for 18 months. That town is dying, and the slow economic recovery that the rest of nation is complaining about is still a goddamn depression in their world. Do I think Trump can fix their problems? Nope, industrialization and automation is taking over the forest industry, just like every other, and there's nothing anybody can do about it. From their perspective, I can understand why they'd be angry at people who dismiss them as ignorant bigots. Change is hard, and frankly if they wanted change, they'd have left already. I wanted change, so that's what I did.

Yeah, logging will always have a soft spot in my heart, despite its danger.  Routes 26, 3, and 16 used to be abuzz with logging traffic.  I'd bet that Maine has more miles of tote roads than paved roads.  Now prison work or driving miles south to work in retail is a good job in the same region.  Many people try to do several seasonal jobs.  My heart goes out to them.  It reminds me of Springsteen's Youngstown.
Quote
From the Monongaleh valley
 To the Mesabi iron range
 To the coal mines of Appalachia
 The story's always the same
 Seven hundred tons of metal a day
 Now sir you tell me the world's changed
 Once I made you rich enough
 Rich enough to forget my name

Here's my take on Trump, and where I see the economic POV of the rural voter.  Why did these jobs go away?  Lumber from Canada is often cheaper due to their softwood subsidies.  Cardboard/paper from China is cheaper for a number of reasons.  We have safety and environmental regulations.  We have free trade.

These guys aren't dumb.  They know that some of them will get jobs back if there are protectionist trade policies.  They know that automation and mechanization exist, but some chance to get work beats nothing.



mtnrider

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #131 on: November 10, 2016, 11:28:59 AM »
Quote
Also, at the risk of being overly pedantic, since you're making the claim that "has always been a racist contingent of the Republican party" you should look back at the extremely racist history of the Democratic party. It's a different party now, but it's important to be careful about making such blanket statements that are historically incorrect.

To be overly pedantic back, there were certainly racists in the Republican party in 1880 as well. In any case, I meant the modern Republican party. Thanks for the reminder.

The racists moved from the Democratic party to the Republican party in the '70s-'80s. See Southern Strategy.

See also: Strom Thurmond.  He's sort of the personification of this.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #132 on: November 10, 2016, 11:29:15 AM »
I grew up in an affluent suburb of Youngstown, Ohio--the most rust belt of all rust belt cities. I then went to Ohio State for seven years (undergrad and law school) and moved back to Youngstown afterwards. Columbus and Youngstown are a couple hours apart, but I cannot even begin to understate the difference between the two communities.

...

And again, from towns across the US like Youngstown, this was a big, giant, middle finger to say "Hey, remember us?"

Just +1-ing every bit of this. Grew up in Cleveland suburbs and went to college in Columbus and upstate NY. My wife grew up in East Liverpool. We go back pretty regularly. The differences are stark, and Cleveland isn't even doing particularly awesome, just better than elsewhere.

Syonyk

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #133 on: November 10, 2016, 11:33:48 AM »
We now have a case pending of a single mom facing potential jail time for occasionally selling homemade ceviche via a Facebook group.

Oh, man.  That progressive utopia looks better and better each day!  Soon, they'll jail people for cooking food in their own homes - you know, cooking at home is pretty much terrorism.  It causes untold economic harm to the consumer economy of areas.  Instead of spending money stimulating the economy, they're just being selfish, cheap, hoarders!

</not really that far from how some of California seems to think>

The only thing worse than bigotry is being ignorant of your bigotry. You see southerners as "acceptable targets" and it needs to stop right the fuck now.

"Wage class" earners are about the only target left to pick on.  It's not racist, it's not sexist, and even though it's classist, there's the constant howling that America is a class free society, so nobody complains much.

Can't say anything about any other races, but man is it fair game on poor whites.

And those poor whites (and a lot of other people) just threw a brick through the window of the house of the coastal elites.

mtnrider

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #134 on: November 10, 2016, 11:59:58 AM »
The South was the birthplace of the civil rights movement. Huge swaths of it -- particularly the cities and large strips running across the Fall Line and along the Mississipi River -- are hardly less progressive than NYC or SF. Pretending that those parts of the South don't exist is hugely ignorant and bigoted in and of itself.

To be fair, I don't think I'm bigoted, in that I'm not intolerant of your point of view.  Ignorant of it, maybe.

I totally get that the southern cities are wonderful.  I've never lived in one myself, but I have immigrant friends (who could appear muslim) who lived in Houston, Atlanta, worked in RTP and they had great experiences there.  (They also said they loved the food, despite their dietary restrictions.)

Also, consider this map:



See all that red up in NY, PA, OH and WV, and the distinct lack of red through vast swaths of GA, FL and even Texas?

I've spent most of my life in the green areas on the coasts, and am quite surprised at the red in NY, PA.  That is very concerning.

I'm curious about the context of the "Media Markets Area Racism"?  How was it judged?

I also wonder how heavily influenced the population of the cities vs rural areas were in the data.  And if the intensity of the racism was taken into account.  My impression is that in poor white rural areas, racism is more likely and more strongly held.

I wonder if this is a byproduct of races living nearby to each other?  Are they somewhat integrated, like Boston and NYC?  Or are they living in redlined zones like used to be common in those northern red areas?



bacchi

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #135 on: November 10, 2016, 12:02:44 PM »
We now have a case pending of a single mom facing potential jail time for occasionally selling homemade ceviche via a Facebook group.

Oh, man.  That progressive utopia looks better and better each day!  Soon, they'll jail people for cooking food in their own homes - you know, cooking at home is pretty much terrorism.  It causes untold economic harm to the consumer economy of areas.  Instead of spending money stimulating the economy, they're just being selfish, cheap, hoarders!

</not really that far from how some of California seems to think>

Yeah, they were also planning to steal babies from rural parents and raise them in "correct" households!!111!!!

Ffs. You're not helping.

mtn

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #136 on: November 10, 2016, 12:22:36 PM »
Hope nobody posted this, but Michael Moore (yes, that Michael Moore) said it best:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEHekdQSiXg

Jack

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #137 on: November 10, 2016, 12:25:39 PM »
To be fair, I don't think I'm bigoted, in that I'm not intolerant of your point of view.  Ignorant of it, maybe.

I totally get that the southern cities are wonderful.  I've never lived in one myself, but I have immigrant friends (who could appear muslim) who lived in Houston, Atlanta, worked in RTP and they had great experiences there.  (They also said they loved the food, despite their dietary restrictions.)

My point is that people are people and the divide between North and South is a lot smaller than people in the North like to pretend. The only difference between a "blue state" and a "red state" is that one is 50% + 1 vote and the other is 50% - 1 vote, which strongly correlates to being >50% urban vs. <50% urban.

I'm curious about the context of the "Media Markets Area Racism"?  How was it judged?

Click on the map. It is a hyperlink to the article which contained it.

I also wonder how heavily influenced the population of the cities vs rural areas were in the data.  And if the intensity of the racism was taken into account.  My impression is that in poor white rural areas, racism is more likely and more strongly held.

I wonder if this is a byproduct of races living nearby to each other?  Are they somewhat integrated, like Boston and NYC?  Or are they living in redlined zones like used to be common in those northern red areas?

I don't know, but you might find this map interesting:

https://www.wired.com/2013/08/how-segregated-is-your-city-this-eye-opening-map-shows-you/

http://demographics.coopercenter.org/DotMap/index.html

infogoon

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #138 on: November 10, 2016, 12:48:50 PM »
I've spent most of my life in the green areas on the coasts, and am quite surprised at the red in NY, PA.  That is very concerning.

There's a tremendous cultural divide between the cities and the rural areas in upstate New York. I've heard way more shocking, overt racism from people in the Southern Tier (between Buffalo and the PA state line) than I ever heard from my relatives in Alabama.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #139 on: November 10, 2016, 01:01:04 PM »
Also, just a note, many of the people that I know probably would have supported Bernie (like the father-in-law). Not the evangelicals, but the establishment Republicans I know would have voted for him. They just couldn't bring themselves to vote for possibly the most hated Democrats in recent history.

I keep reading this but I'm not buying it. Bernie was a self identified socialist. Think how that would play out in the attack ads. If Obama was a socialist just for being...an African-American Democrat (?), a real (democratic) socialist would've been killed.

--------
"He's a socialist."
<Bernie sound clip declaring himself a socialist>
<background image of a hammer and sickle>

"Socialists want to abolish private property."
<background image of a Soviet collective farm>

"Do you like standing in line for your sugar?"
<background image of a Soviet food line>
--------

Bernie wouldn't have had a prayer.

If he would have been the Democrat nominee, would he have lost the same number of votes to Johnson and Stein that Hillary did? Maybe republicans wouldn't have voted for him, but if all the democrats, and most of the independents would have, it would be a much different story today.

It's worth noting that Clinton and Trump BOTH got fewer votes than Romney or McCain. Turnout was low across the board, so an energized democratic base could've made a huge difference.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #140 on: November 10, 2016, 01:09:39 PM »
This is why cottage industries are dying. Many of them are being literally regulated out of business with one requirement after another. Twenty years ago, it was practical to go into business for yourself and have a side hustle. Now it's often impossible simply because of government interference.

We now have a case pending of a single mom facing potential jail time for occasionally selling homemade ceviche via a Facebook group.

It used to be possible to, say, babysit kids in your own home for pay without a special license or special inspections and certifications. It used to be legal to make jam or jelly at home and sell it to the public. But even something as basic as running a catering business is now so heavily regulated that the barriers to entry create an economy of scale such that the only people who can afford to follow all the artificial rules are the ones who are in the business full-time or who operate on a vast scale far out of reach of the average person.

Then of course there are all the restrictions about what you can or cannot do on property your family has owned for years. Oh, is the endangered spotted-penised screech gopher whelping somewhere on your land? Pity. You're now forbidden to look in its general direction. What, you were planning to harvest apples the way your family has been doing for generations? Sorry about your luck, but the critter is more important. Oh, you say they're not endangered and that the entire area is overrun with them? Our studies say otherwise, so you're screwed.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #141 on: November 10, 2016, 01:12:58 PM »
I've spent most of my life in the green areas on the coasts, and am quite surprised at the red in NY, PA.  That is very concerning.

There's a tremendous cultural divide between the cities and the rural areas in upstate New York. I've heard way more shocking, overt racism from people in the Southern Tier (between Buffalo and the PA state line) than I ever heard from my relatives in Alabama.

I spent three years in Syracuse, and bounced around between city and exurbs ... holy cow the difference 15 minutes made.

Papa Mustache

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #142 on: November 10, 2016, 01:26:17 PM »
Are there lines getting crossed?  The racist argument primarily stems from the alt-right endorsement of Trump by the KKK and stuff.  They are obviously racists but I think the core attraction was Xenophobia, not racism.  There isn't (at least that I see) a culture of trump supporters that say Mexicans, muslims, blacks etc... are inherently bad (racism) but rather that they would prefer for them to be elsewhere or at least perfectly assimilated to the local culture (xenophobia).

Xenophobia is a far bigger problem than racism. I've lived in the South my whole life, and I don't know a single white person who believes their own race to be inherently superior (I know they exist, but I don't know who they are, and frankly there aren't many of them). I know plenty of people, on the other hand, who believe that their own culture is inherently superior. These people are warmly welcoming of people of other races who think, talk, and act like they do. They have little tolerance or patience for anyone - regardless of their race - who hold starkly differently believes. Their greatest contempt is not for Mexicans, Muslims, or poor blacks, but for the "liberal elite" who have vastly different cultural values. And frankly, as inclusive as many liberals purport to be, it seems clear that they suffer from their own share of xenophobia based on their attitudes towards rural, conservative whites.

I'll agree with you on this. I too live in the south. I could drive you around and show you a few little houses where the owner is racist (and proudly advertise it) but those amount to less than maybe ten families that I know of spread across a several counties that I count as my stomping grounds.

I'm sure there are more racists here that hide themselves but as you said mostly we suffer from cultural xenophobia aka "not my tribe" people who have a hard time relating to people not like them. I'm related to some of these people.

Take a trip around town and witness the number of ethnically mixed children. Plenty of people dating outside of their own race.

music lover

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #143 on: November 10, 2016, 01:35:32 PM »
I guess it's easier for the Democrats to simply call everyone who voted for Trump as a racist rather than look at why their party failed.

No one forced the Democrats to nominate someone under FBI investigation.

No one forced the Democrats to nominate someone who deliberately breached national security by using a private email sever that was likely hacked by enemies of the US.

No one forced the Democrats to nominate someone who uses their "charitable" fundation as a pay for play slush fund.

No one forced the Democrats to nominate such a cold hearted, morally corrupt person.

Go ahead...keep blaming the racists for the next 4 years instead of fixing your party.

mtnrider

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #144 on: November 10, 2016, 01:43:23 PM »
To be fair, I don't think I'm bigoted, in that I'm not intolerant of your point of view.  Ignorant of it, maybe.

I totally get that the southern cities are wonderful.  I've never lived in one myself, but I have immigrant friends (who could appear muslim) who lived in Houston, Atlanta, worked in RTP and they had great experiences there.  (They also said they loved the food, despite their dietary restrictions.)

My point is that people are people and the divide between North and South is a lot smaller than people in the North like to pretend. The only difference between a "blue state" and a "red state" is that one is 50% + 1 vote and the other is 50% - 1 vote, which strongly correlates to being >50% urban vs. <50% urban.

Point taken.

Also, upon thinking about this, the rural northeast has no whites.  Maine, NH, and VT are lily white.  It's hard to blame minorities for your troubles when they aren't there.



I'm curious about the context of the "Media Markets Area Racism"?  How was it judged?

Click on the map. It is a hyperlink to the article which contained it.

I also wonder how heavily influenced the population of the cities vs rural areas were in the data.  And if the intensity of the racism was taken into account.  My impression is that in poor white rural areas, racism is more likely and more strongly held.

I wonder if this is a byproduct of races living nearby to each other?  Are they somewhat integrated, like Boston and NYC?  Or are they living in redlined zones like used to be common in those northern red areas?

I don't know, but you might find this map interesting:

https://www.wired.com/2013/08/how-segregated-is-your-city-this-eye-opening-map-shows-you/

http://demographics.coopercenter.org/DotMap/index.html

I really have to wonder who the heck is googling racial slurs, from anywhere.  And why?  Do people have so much spare time?  (Aside from posting here after an election, of course.  :) )

Even among my racist, southern family and "friends," I don't think they're googling or posting racial slurs.  What they are doing though, is sharing facebook posts claiming that blacks kill/rape whites and are all hopped up on dope, that Hispanics/Puerto Ricans are lazy, that Muslims are trying to institute Sharia law in the US, etc...  The previous generation... they might google for the racial slurs - if they could use a computer.  :)

That second map is curious.  It's a little hard to say for sure without studying it in detail, but it seems like asian integration happens more than black or hispanic integration.  Or maybe that's just that red stands out more than light green or yellow against blue.

This dovetails with something else I've noticed.  My family's southern WWII generation was equally racist against all races, asians included.  (I still cringe when I think back to riding with my granddad through a city.)   The current generation though, mostly respects asians.

This reminds me - there was surprising support by some for The Bell Curve among educated folks.

I'm going to award you a delta.  You've changed my view.



Jack

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #145 on: November 10, 2016, 03:08:42 PM »
I'm going to award you a delta.  You've changed my view.

Wow, thanks!

mm1970

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #146 on: November 10, 2016, 03:26:50 PM »
This is why cottage industries are dying. Many of them are being literally regulated out of business with one requirement after another. Twenty years ago, it was practical to go into business for yourself and have a side hustle. Now it's often impossible simply because of government interference.

We now have a case pending of a single mom facing potential jail time for occasionally selling homemade ceviche via a Facebook group.

It used to be possible to, say, babysit kids in your own home for pay without a special license or special inspections and certifications. It used to be legal to make jam or jelly at home and sell it to the public. But even something as basic as running a catering business is now so heavily regulated that the barriers to entry create an economy of scale such that the only people who can afford to follow all the artificial rules are the ones who are in the business full-time or who operate on a vast scale far out of reach of the average person.

Then of course there are all the restrictions about what you can or cannot do on property your family has owned for years. Oh, is the endangered spotted-penised screech gopher whelping somewhere on your land? Pity. You're now forbidden to look in its general direction. What, you were planning to harvest apples the way your family has been doing for generations? Sorry about your luck, but the critter is more important. Oh, you say they're not endangered and that the entire area is overrun with them? Our studies say otherwise, so you're screwed.
Yeah, this is tough.  I don't know the right answer. 

The inability to these small side hustles to bring in cash might really hurt people.

But then regulations are there for safety reasons.  We had this discussion on our local FB sale page (I read the comments, didn't participate), and it was split 50/50 "that's horrible" and "the regulations are there for health and safety of people".  Same thing goes for just trading services...you know the government wants its cut.

LOTS of people make and sell food in this town, under the table.  I'm happy to buy tamales from my son's classmate's mom.

mm1970

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #147 on: November 10, 2016, 03:30:43 PM »
I've spent most of my life in the green areas on the coasts, and am quite surprised at the red in NY, PA.  That is very concerning.

There's a tremendous cultural divide between the cities and the rural areas in upstate New York. I've heard way more shocking, overt racism from people in the Southern Tier (between Buffalo and the PA state line) than I ever heard from my relatives in Alabama.

I spent three years in Syracuse, and bounced around between city and exurbs ... holy cow the difference 15 minutes made.
I grew up in NW PA, in a little red county.  I know that most of my relatives are Republican, but my stepfather's family tends towards "union Democrats".  The red part comes from many things: Catholic/ Christian anti-abortion, "I hate welfare and food stamps", among others.  And yeah, our 3 manufacturing plants are down to 1, so the jobs are pretty much gone. It's a far cry from Pittsburgh, the nearest big city.

My elder siblings are way older than me.  I went to a family dinner in my 30s, decades had gone by.  I was a kid last time I ate with them. I couldn't BELIEVE the racism.  But you know?  The whole town was white.  I mean, everyone in my first school was white.  I transferred when my parents divorced, and our new school had 2 Asians (brother/ sister), 2 blacks and one Hispanic kid.  Out of 600.

mm1970

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #148 on: November 10, 2016, 03:37:02 PM »
I guess it's easier for the Democrats to simply call everyone who voted for Trump as a racist rather than look at why their party failed.

No one forced the Democrats to nominate someone under FBI investigation.

No one forced the Democrats to nominate someone who deliberately breached national security by using a private email sever that was likely hacked by enemies of the US.

No one forced the Democrats to nominate someone who uses their "charitable" fundation as a pay for play slush fund.

No one forced the Democrats to nominate such a cold hearted, morally corrupt person.

Go ahead...keep blaming the racists for the next 4 years instead of fixing your party.

I think it's hard to Democrats to realize that people voted for Trump were EITHER racist OR willing to overlook his racism/sexism,etc.  And there's a difference.

I think it's easy for Republicans to find fault with someone they hate - Democrats too.

I think a lot of Republicans live in a dream world -

No investigation so far has uncovered anything, after many many attempts.  Not a one.

The email things are pretty much turning out to be a non-issue, especially when you consider PAST email issues of ...say...Republicans in the same office.

It's easy for Republicans to be name-callers, but I have never considered HRC to be cold-hearted or corrupt at all.  She simply does not come off that way to me, and never ever has.  She has done absolutely nothing more than any other politician.  She is not more, or less "corrupt" than anyone else.

But it's easy for Republicans to find fault with someone they dislike - it's human nature - while overlooking the problems in their own candidate.  And vice versa.

stoaX

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #149 on: November 10, 2016, 03:37:53 PM »
But then regulations are there for safety reasons.  We had this discussion on our local FB sale page (I read the comments, didn't participate), and it was split 50/50 "that's horrible" and "the regulations are there for health and safety of people".  Same thing goes for just trading services...you know the government wants its cut.
[/quote]

Some regulations are for health and safety reasons.  Some are, as you mention, there to raise revenue.   Others exist to artificially keep prices high by making it harder to get into a business (like taxi cab medallions, hairdressing licenses...).   Keep buying those tamales!