Western democracy at work

[hoping2retire35]

Tha Hell

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/01/world/europe/denmark-immigrant-ghettos.html

https://www.commentarymagazine.com/politics-ideas/british-education-regulators-get-creepy-with-jewish-girls-yesodey-hatorah/
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-44611306


Britain and Denmark, seriously?

[Warlord1986]

Britain went off the rails with the Brexit but I expected better from Denmark.

"One measure under consideration would allow courts to double the punishment for certain crimes if they are committed in one of the 25 neighborhoods classified as ghettos, based on residents’ income, employment status, education levels, number of criminal convictions and “non-Western background.” "

Jesus take the wheel.

[BTDretire]

Britain went off the rails with the Brexit but I expected better from Denmark.

"One measure under consideration would allow courts to double the punishment for certain crimes if they are committed in one of the 25 neighborhoods classified as ghettos, based on residents’ income, employment status, education levels, number of criminal convictions and “non-Western background.” "

Jesus take the wheel.

  Do I have this right, you think immigrants should be able to come into a country, not assimilate, not accept the values, then try to change the values and laws, all while living on the welfare of the country they want to change.
   Those immigrants in the ghettos, may actually appreciate have some strict justice on those breaking laws within the community and injuring them.

[Warlord1986]

Britain went off the rails with the Brexit but I expected better from Denmark.

"One measure under consideration would allow courts to double the punishment for certain crimes if they are committed in one of the 25 neighborhoods classified as ghettos, based on residents’ income, employment status, education levels, number of criminal convictions and “non-Western background.” "

Jesus take the wheel.

  Do I have this right, you think immigrants should be able to come into a country, not assimilate, not accept the values, then try to change the values and laws, all while living on the welfare of the country they want to change.
   Those immigrants in the ghettos, may actually appreciate have some strict justice on those breaking laws within the community and injuring them.

Bless your little heart, you didn't get that right at all. In fact, the mental gymnastics it takes to pull that out of the portion of the report I quoted are nothing short of majestic. You win gold in the uneven bars event of the Racist Olympics. Bravo.

I imagine the immigrants in the ghettos (they even mention the history of how that word was used) would appreciate being treated like everyone else, including within the judicial system. I'm not sure where you got the idea that they want to change the values and laws. They are not the ones trying to change laws to directly impact a demographic frequently 'othered'. Also, those politicians and the white citizens quoted in the first article don't indicate any values I want to follow.

From the article:

Her client, Anni Larsen, told a story about being invited by a Turkish immigrant to their child’s wedding and being scandalized to discover that the guests were separated by gender and seated in different rooms. “I think there were only 10 people from Denmark,” she said, appalled. “If you ask me, I think they shouldn’t have invited us.”

One group of people reached out to share a special occasion with people they presumably knew. The other group decided to be scandalized. (Also, I speak some Turkish and have Turkish friends. I've been in the same room as many Turkish males and have never experienced any harassment or drama. Obviously I can't speak about everyone from Turkey, but this 'scandalized' strikes me as histrionics.)

I'm not going to respond to you after this.

[bacchi]

Britain went off the rails with the Brexit but I expected better from Denmark.

"One measure under consideration would allow courts to double the punishment for certain crimes if they are committed in one of the 25 neighborhoods classified as ghettos, based on residents’ income, employment status, education levels, number of criminal convictions and “non-Western background.” "

Jesus take the wheel.

  Do I have this right, you think immigrants should be able to come into a country, not assimilate, not accept the values, then try to change the values and laws, all while living on the welfare of the country they want to change.
   Those immigrants in the ghettos, may actually appreciate have some strict justice on those breaking laws within the community and injuring them.

There's a wide difference between immigrants taking over and living on welfare vs immigrant ghettos where crimes are 2x the punishment compared to natives. I realize that black-vs-white thinking is popular these days but there's almost always grey.


The 25 hours/week for kids doesn't seem that onerous. It's simply pre-school (albeit enforced). All kids would be in Danish school from 6 years on anyway.

[robartsd]

One measure under consideration would allow courts to double the punishment for certain crimes if they are committed in one of the 25 neighborhoods classified as ghettos, based on residents’ income, employment status, education levels, number of criminal convictions and “non-Western background.”

I don't think it's a bad idea to increase punishment for crimes committed in areas generally populated by the under privileged if the goal is to reduce the tendency of people taking advantage of the underprivileged. Unfortunately the other measures listed in the Danish article make it pretty clear that protecting the underprivileged is not the intent.

[Davnasty]

Britain went off the rails with the Brexit but I expected better from Denmark.

"One measure under consideration would allow courts to double the punishment for certain crimes if they are committed in one of the 25 neighborhoods classified as ghettos, based on residents’ income, employment status, education levels, number of criminal convictions and “non-Western background.” "

Jesus take the wheel.

  Do I have this right, you think immigrants should be able to come into a country, not assimilate, not accept the values, then try to change the values and laws, all while living on the welfare of the country they want to change.
   Those immigrants in the ghettos, may actually appreciate have some strict justice on those breaking laws within the community and injuring them.

There's a wide difference between immigrants taking over and living on welfare vs immigrant ghettos where crimes are 2x the punishment compared to natives. I realize that black-vs-white thinking is popular these days but there's almost always grey.


The 25 hours/week for kids doesn't seem that onerous. It's simply pre-school (albeit enforced). All kids would be in Danish school from 6 years on anyway.

If the requirement was the same for everyone I would agree but according to the article this only applies to "Ghetto children" (I don't know if that refers to immigrants or if it is determined by your address). And it starts at 1 year of age, that's too young for any sort of mandatory schooling. And they are teaching "Danish Values". Judging by the quotes I would assume this wording is written in the law. All taken together I would say this is not OK.

[bacchi]

The 25 hours/week for kids doesn't seem that onerous. It's simply pre-school (albeit enforced). All kids would be in Danish school from 6 years on anyway.

If the requirement was the same for everyone I would agree but according to the article this only applies to "Ghetto children" (I don't know if that refers to immigrants or if it is determined by your address). And it starts at 1 year of age, that's too young for any sort of mandatory schooling. And they are teaching "Danish Values". Judging by the quotes I would assume this wording is written in the law. All taken together I would say this is not OK.

It does seem too young but Danish citizens can (voluntary) choose to put their 1-5 year olds in preschool, from my understanding of that paragraph. Presumably some Danes do so, as a form of daycare.

It's also not compulsory. Immigrants can decline to let their 1-5 year children attend at the risk of losing their welfare payments.

A bigger question is why they have "ghetto" neighborhoods anyway. Physical integration might solve the problem better than putting all the immigrants together in one area where gangs and crime can form. A jobs program would do more for integration than forced preschool for children.

[hoping2retire35]

If, for some reason, you are not immediately outraged and just think, 'well the state does provide the benefits...it is not like it is taking away a right...everyone else has to do it..."

How about Christian children must go gender education camp or 'all religions are equal' camp otherwise their parents loose their driving 'privileges.'

I'll give you another, not really that far in the past or really beyond the pale(at the time). Your kid has to lead the prayer at public school otherwise he no longer has the right to attend. How's that Mr. Atheist?

We can all do the mental gymnastics of how this is justified, but at the end of the day the state is using coercion to destroy their culture.

[Davnasty]

The 25 hours/week for kids doesn't seem that onerous. It's simply pre-school (albeit enforced). All kids would be in Danish school from 6 years on anyway.

If the requirement was the same for everyone I would agree but according to the article this only applies to "Ghetto children" (I don't know if that refers to immigrants or if it is determined by your address). And it starts at 1 year of age, that's too young for any sort of mandatory schooling. And they are teaching "Danish Values". Judging by the quotes I would assume this wording is written in the law. All taken together I would say this is not OK.

It does seem too young but Danish citizens can (voluntary) choose to put their 1-5 year olds in preschool, from my understanding of that paragraph. Presumably some Danes do so, as a form of daycare.

It's also not compulsory. Immigrants can decline to let their 1-5 year children attend at the risk of losing their welfare payments.

A bigger question is why they have "ghetto" neighborhoods anyway. Physical integration might solve the problem better than putting all the immigrants together in one area where gangs and crime can form. A jobs program would do more for integration than forced preschool for children.

Interesting, that actually sounds pretty awesome as daycare. And true, while I don't agree with holding welfare hostage it's very different than making it compulsory.

[Johnez]

I could just imagine this happening here, lol. One of the good things about the US's "independence" streak. Crap like this wouldn't fly. Even with Trump at the helm. This is pretty disturbing.

The rhetoric in Europe is getting as scary or scarier than in the US. Even when far right movements are quashed in elections, their principles and the underlying fear they draw upon are still simmering. The hope and optimism even just a decade ago seems to have evaporated in larger groups of people. This makes me think the problem is larger than our leaders, they are simply taking advantage of the growing situation.

[bacchi]

If, for some reason, you are not immediately outraged and just think, 'well the state does provide the benefits...it is not like it is taking away a right...everyone else has to do it..."

How about Christian children must go gender education camp or 'all religions are equal' camp otherwise their parents loose their driving 'privileges.'

I'll give you another, not really that far in the past or really beyond the pale(at the time). Your kid has to lead the prayer at public school otherwise he no longer has the right to attend. How's that Mr. Atheist?

As a strong believer in a secular society, then I'd obviously disapprove of that.

Secular Denmark feels the same. That's the bottom line. It may be unfair to immigrants, or not tolerant of hardcore Islam (or orthodox Judaism, or evangelical Christianity), but that's the type of society that Denmark wants to encourage.

We can all do the mental gymnastics of how this is justified, but at the end of the day the state is using coercion to destroy their culture.

Women just received the right to drive in Saudi Arabia. Women in Syria, where many of Denmark's Muslim immigrants arrive from, are still bound by Sharia law and a marriage contract is between the husband and the wife's father.

For those aspects of middle-eastern Muslim culture: good fuckin' riddance.


The Islam immigrant threat is definitely exaggerated. 72% of immigrants passed the Danish language exam and 48% are employed (compared to 74% of Danes). Those aren't outrageously low numbers and, again, there are better methods to integrate immigrants than forced preschool for 1-5 year olds.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/06/world/europe/denmark-migrants-refugees-racism.html

[trollwithamustache]

So, this isn't intended to flame things up, but how is this different from our (USA) hate crime laws?

We define certain groups by skin color or sexual orientation for hate crime purposes. The Danes appear to be doing the same thing using geography as a proxy.

[bacchi]

So, this isn't intended to flame things up, but how is this different from our (USA) hate crime laws?

We define certain groups by skin color or sexual orientation for hate crime purposes. The Danes appear to be doing the same thing using geography as a proxy.

It's not quite the same. Hate Crime laws in the US are about the victim and the beliefs of the attacker(s) toward the victim. A neo-Nazi can attack another neo-Nazi and that's not a hate crime. A neo-Nazi attacking someone wearing a yarmulke is probably a hate crime.

In Denmark, the victim has nothing to do with it. If a "ghetto kid" lives in a certain block, he would get (if that law passed) 2x the jail time for stealing a loaf of bread.

You can imagine the problem if a ghetto kid and a Dane native were hanging out and tagged a building -- the ghetto kid would serve 60 days while the Dane native would serve 30 days (or whatever -- you get the point).

[hoping2retire35]

@bacchi so you are ok with what the Danes are doing simply because you too consider your self a part and promoter of secular society. Fine. But it is still hypocritical of both you and the Danes.

You do understand that to live in a liberal democracy you have to respect the beliefs and customs of others. No matter how much you disagree. Sure you cannot enslave another person, no one has the right to harm another without cause. There is still stuff like this in the world that needs to end.

https://www.thenational.ae/world/asia/tragic-plight-of-india-s-young-temple-girls-1.599285

Not being able to drive and having your child taken from you are not apples to apples. More like food compared to a stone. Sure, sharia law may not be compatible or even capable to compromise with liberal democracy but having people stomped on like this is awful and unnecessary. Democracy should allow people who are different to peacefully live together not stamped into a uniform mold.


Why don't we try to create a society where neither theocracy nor pograms of the state are foisted on us.

[bacchi]

You do understand that to live in a liberal democracy you have to respect the beliefs and customs of others. No matter how much you disagree. Sure you cannot enslave another person, no one has the right to harm another without cause. There is still stuff like this in the world that needs to end.

https://www.thenational.ae/world/asia/tragic-plight-of-india-s-young-temple-girls-1.599285

So we're not discussing whether a liberal democracy has to accept every kind of belief; we're just discussing where the line is drawn.

Devadasi? Out.
Female genital mutiliation? Out.
Ritual animal sacrifice by a religion? Ok (in the US).
Praying with your head to Mecca? Ok.

Not being able to drive and having your child taken from you are not apples to apples. More like food compared to a stone. Sure, sharia law may not be compatible or even capable to compromise with liberal democracy but having people stomped on like this is awful and unnecessary. Democracy should allow people who are different to peacefully live together not stamped into a uniform mold.

Children ages 6-16 are forced every day into schooling, even in the States. Home schoolers, who aren't taken from their parents, have to prove that they've been learning. That's part and parcel of many countries.

Where the disagreement lies is forced preschool. It's probably been instituted on the basis that the younger these kids are taught liberal democratic ideas, the more tolerant they'll be of, for example, women in the working world, and the more likely they'll fit into Danish society.
 
As these immigrants have immigrated to another country, they have to play by its rules. That includes forced schooling from ages 6-16 and that adulterous women can't be stoned by the local disapproving mob.*

The Danes also made it a requirement that preschool for immigrant kids is required in order to receive welfare checks.

The bottom line is that there is a baseline of cultural beliefs for any country, whether it be in Saudi or Denmark or the US. Immigrant women in Saudi couldn't drive a car last year and still wear a head scarf. Immigrating to Denmark or the US means sharia doesn't fly anymore and that women can't be forced to ride in the back of a publicly funded bus.**



* https://www.cnn.com/2015/11/04/asia/afghanistan-taliban-woman-stoning/index.html ; cf. Leviticus 20:10

** https://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/20/nyregion/bus-segregation-of-jewish-women-prompts-review.html

[trollwithamustache]

@bacchi s

Why don't we try to create a society where neither theocracy nor pograms of the state are foisted on us.

"they" did, and we Americans gave it up!

[Johnez]

There's a big difference between compelled schooling for six year olds and one year olds. One year old?! Jeez their still nursing at that point! I have a problem letting my toddler who can't talk in the care of my family even...

[Leisured]

When in Rome do as the Romans do. Rich Europe is doing the immigrants a favour by admitting them. The locals fear that immigrants have fouled up the countries they come from, and they might foul up their adopted country, if they come in enough numbers. The recent huge inflow of Middle East refuges is close to being an ‘invasion’ of Europe. The least these refugees can do is to be grateful for European benefits and accept that they will have to fit into their adopted country.

I am Australian, and we have had waves of immigrants for about two centuries. There has been fear of immigration from time to time, notably the Yellow Peril (Chinese) of the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. I witnessed huge south European immigration in the fifties and sixties, but the intransigence of some – but not all – Muslim immigrants is new.

Muslim immigration is not like other waves of immigrants. Muslim immigration is really is a problem, and has caught us all by surprise.

In Medieval Europe, Jews were traditionally suspect because they were seen as not loyal to the Crown of the country they lived in, and they too lived in ghettoes.

Any country has the right to defend itself.

In the sixteenth and most of the seventeenth centuries, Roman Catholics were the militant terrorists, loyal to the Pope. Elizabeth 1 was the target of assassination attempts, and in 1605 there was a Catholic plot to blow up the House of Parliament while King James 1 was addressing it. The plot was detected in time, and thereafter the fifth of November was celebrated as ‘Guy Fawkes’ night, Fawkes being the main conspirator, and the conspiracy was derided as ‘gunpowder, treason and plot’. 

England discriminated against Roman Catholics from early sixteenth century until 1829. The restrictions on Catholics included preventing them from entering government service, because of the perceived lack of loyalty to the Crown. Extreme Muslims in Europe today clearly lack loyalty to their adopted countries, but I accept that not all Muslims are extreme.

In 1829, in Britain, restrictions on Catholics were lifted. By then, Catholics were no longer seen as a threat to Monarch and country.

[hoping2retire35]

Granted, Denmark is a tiny country and very homogeneous, it doesn't have a lot of laws because they don't need them(in many facets where we do have laws). The US and even Britain to an extent are much more worldly and of course have a much greater population, so their timid behavior is understandable; however they SHOULD HAVE THOUGHT OF THAT BEFORE THEY ALLOWED MORE PEOPLE IN THEIR COUNTRY.

The guise of coercive public education is nothing more than a sham to destroy them for their difference. As johnez says, 1 yo are babies, that is ridiculous. It is nothing to do with ensuring young adults have a quality education.

[nnls]

I am Australian, and we have had waves of immigrants for about two centuries. There has been fear of immigration from time to time, notably the Yellow Peril (Chinese) of the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. I witnessed huge south European immigration in the fifties and sixties, but the intransigence of some – but not all – Muslim immigrants is new.

Muslim immigration is not like other waves of immigrants. Muslim immigration is really is a problem, and has caught us all by surprise.

What makes you think Muslim immigration isn't like other immigration? All the other immigration to Australia was seen as a problem at the time because it would change our way of life, and was generally just racism. Australia had problems with immigrants from parts of Europe and then Asia and now its moved to Muslims. There has been nothing to suggest that most Muslims who immigrate to Australia are doing so for the chance of a better life and will only enrich Australian society like most other waves of immigrants have.

The only immigrants who did massive damage to the existing Australian population was the British who invaded and managed to kill and enslave a lot of people and continue to discriminate against them to this day 

[Leisured]

What makes you think Muslim immigration isn't like other immigration? All the other immigration to Australia was seen as a problem at the time because it would change our way of life, and was generally just racism.

I agree that most Muslim immigrants do make an effort to accept the Australian way of life. But there is a minority who are dangerous enough that modern anti terror laws are aimed at them. Think of the Lindt cafe siege, or the young Muslim shooting a police accountant dead. No Italian, Greek or Vietnamese migrants committed crimes like that. It is not racism; it is reality.

[Kyle Schuant]

I am Australian, and we have had waves of immigrants for about two centuries. There has been fear of immigration from time to time, notably the Yellow Peril (Chinese) of the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. I witnessed huge south European immigration in the fifties and sixties, but the intransigence of some – but not all – Muslim immigrants is new.

Until recently an old lady lived in the back unit of our row. She was 101, from Italy, been here since 1955. Didn't speak any english, and not even mainstream Italian, just a dialect. Her 70yo son and his also Italian-origin wife visited and helped her, he spoke Italian and the dialect. His two sons married non-Italian origin people, spoke little Italian, barely ever visited their grandmother, and their children know nothing of Italy and its language and culture but their surnames, and their closest involvement with their great-grandmother was picking over her stuff when she left her place to go to a nursing home.

That's how it always is. The migrants who come desperately cling to their culture and do their level best to ensure their kids get it and don't "marry out", but still a good number of them do. Their grandkids mostly ignore the "home" culture and all marry out, and the great-grandkids barely even hear about its existence except on documentaries they're made to watch in school.

Unless, of course, you segregate them in ghettoes and tell them they're evil and inferior, in which case they cling tightly to their culture for centuries and become practically inbred.

I'm old enough to remember all the same bullshit being said about the Vietnamese and Cambodians, then the Lebanese, then the Balkan salad, and so on and so forth. "They won't assimilate... they'll bring trouble here!"
"Yes, organised crime among these new migrants is a terrible thing, if only they could be completely devoid of organised crime like the Italian migrants were."
Now it's Africans and anyone Moslem.


And it's all bullshit, and always was. And the proposed laws are undemocratic and should not be signed into law.

[Warlord1986]

What makes you think Muslim immigration isn't like other immigration? All the other immigration to Australia was seen as a problem at the time because it would change our way of life, and was generally just racism.

I agree that most Muslim immigrants do make an effort to accept the Australian way of life. But there is a minority who are dangerous enough that modern anti terror laws are aimed at them. Think of the Lindt cafe siege, or the young Muslim shooting a police accountant dead. No Italian, Greek or Vietnamese migrants committed crimes like that. It is not racism; it is reality.

Sometimes I wonder if I'm being a chicken little with all my worry about the echoes of goose steps in the distance. Then someone posts racist shit like this and I think, 'nah. Nazis have made a comeback.'

Truly, it's fascinating that you think Italians, Greeks, and Vietnamese never shoot anyone. It's not like the Italians created organizations specifically for the purpose of committing crimes.

Oh yeah, and the Greeks never shoot anyone. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-texas-shooting-greece-village/greek-village-lost-for-words-over-news-of-texan-teen-gunman-idUSKCN1IK0F7

A simple google search for 'Vietnamese crime' doesn't turn up much. Maybe someone else will have better google fu

[trollwithamustache]

I am Australian, and we have had waves of immigrants for about two centuries.
.....
And it's all bullshit, and always was. And the proposed laws are undemocratic and should not be signed into law.

The assimilation stuff is where Europe seems to be all messed up. (I see the AUS, so please add how this works down there... )

At least in the US, we let people work. Sure they are all the crappy jobs,  but that leads to assimilation.  The Euro system seems to be letting people in, and putting them on welfare, but since unemployment is super high, not giving out work permits.  There is an imposed separation that strikes me as crazy.

[Raymond Reddington]

Issues with crime, IMO, are heavily socioeconomic in nature. Give someone something fun to do and enough money to get by if they're not being completely stupid with their money, and crime will drop.
That gives you more leverage to lock up bad actors for a long time, even bring back the death penalty in certain cases because certain people are beyond rehabilitation.
However, you don't decriminalize low level offenses until you strike that perfect balance.

The problem is the uber wealthy don't want to give up what they have in the name of a social order. Crime occurs when people are bored, angry, and feel like they have nothing to lose. Those 3 are socioeconomic conditions in nature that seem to correlate with crime. The institutional factor is lack of treatment for mental illness. The irony is that most people are so bad with money, the rich would get their money anyway in the end, it just would get taxed and go through several channels first (coincidentally, the extra tax revenue could be used for treatment of...mental illness). That's why a strong middle class has always been an indicator of economic strength, and consumption rises with middle class incomes.

Of course, I don't purport to be able to change any of this, I just do the best I can for myself, my friends and family - and there is still opportunity for those who put in the effort. I'm not into politics, but I'm into sharing ideas, and that's why I stick to what I stick to. But clamping down on poor neighborhoods without treating the underlying causes of crime doesn't just fail to treat their boredom, anger, and nothing to lose mentality. It actually hardens it and institutionalizes it into something that is passed down from generation to generation, ensuring crime well into the future. It also undermines the credibility of the law, and eventaully the authority of the police, which is what we've been seeing (f*** the police was a thing WAY before Trayvon Martin). And that's what we've got to stop doing, as a species.