Author Topic: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves  (Read 160116 times)

Ron Scott

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1750 on: November 06, 2024, 03:58:15 AM »
All these clowns needed to do is beat a dangerous criminal nutcase from New York City who says nothing of substance. But…that seems to be a problem for these geniuses.

Trump did not win hearts and minds. This was a condemnation of the left, whose policies gave us textbook paternalism, but failed for far too long to revive a sagging middle class, instead acting as if their own sense of morality, honed among their own elite with their own language, would be self-evident to the fallen. Their attempts to buy support with old school giveaways—this time with tuition loan forgiveness and $25K house down payments that obviously just papered over problems too big for them to actually solve—fell flat. America is no longer buying their bullshit.

By sticking with Biden too long, and then refusing to hold a real contest with candidates who might have really tried solving problems, a tiny cabal of old Dem insiders decided to turn inward, “play it safe” and convince themselves of their own inevitability.

Harris was perfect in all the right ways and made them feel good about themselves and that was that. Peace in the party. No need to worry about what the people thought because they were the good guys and everybody would just know.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2024, 04:15:33 AM by Ron Scott »

twinstudy

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1751 on: November 06, 2024, 04:04:55 AM »
While the Dems don't have great policies, I don't think they should be blamed for failing to appeal to racists, sexists, fascists, deplorables and others who are small minded and fear migrants and change.

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1752 on: November 06, 2024, 04:22:06 AM »
this time with tuition loan forgiveness and $25K house down payments that obviously just papered over problems too big for them to actually solve—fell flat.
Do I understand you correct?
You are blaming Democrates for not being able to solve a problem because of constant Republican interference, and when they at least make a little step (which the Rs don't) than this is somehow even worse?

Yeah. That seems to be the motto of the show. Blame the Ds for not solving the fires the Rs are constantly lighting and putting fuel on.
And then shit on Ds who are exasperated that MAGA sheeps will vote for their butcher AGAIN even if he hold the bloody butcher knife in his hands.

Ron Scott

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1753 on: November 06, 2024, 05:13:28 AM »

Trump did not win hearts and minds. This was a condemnation of the left, whose policies gave us textbook paternalism, but failed for far too long to revive a sagging middle class, instead acting as if their own sense of morality, honed among their own elite with their own language, would be self-evident to the fallen. Their attempts to buy support with old school giveaways—this time with tuition loan forgiveness and $25K house down payments that obviously just papered over problems too big for them to actually solve—fell flat. America is no longer buying their bullshit.
Do I understand you correct?
You are blaming Democrates for not being able to solve a problem because of constant Republican interference, and when they at least make a little step (which the Rs don't) than this is somehow even worse?

And herein lies the crux of the problem…an amazing inability to respond to what people are actually saying.

I DID NOT SAY Democrats weren’t able to solve problems because of Republican interference.

I was actually commenting on the Dems’ stated and wholly-owned policies and proposals. I said old school giveaways like tuition loan forgiveness and $25K house down payments just papered over problems too big for them to solve and fell flat—and that Americans were no longer buying their bullshit.

partgypsy

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1754 on: November 06, 2024, 05:17:30 AM »
But Ron, shouldn't this election be a condemnation of Republicans putting Trump up as a candidate? Even Republicans should have seen him as a nonstarter..instead this is an condemnation of democratic policies? Policies, that's like third on the list. Our relationship with this election is really feeling like being the domestic abuse partner who is told it's their fault for being beat up. The one video I watched that made me feel better was this one. But it's hard not to feel the loss. https://youtu.be/71Ue5Qy6w1w?si=GLy6F0aXzjiVkVGm
« Last Edit: November 06, 2024, 05:30:58 AM by partgypsy »

Ron Scott

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1755 on: November 06, 2024, 05:36:49 AM »
It's always the dems fault.The next 4 years are the dems fault, because more people voted for Trump. The people who voted for Trump bear no responsibility.

Nope.

The Dems and the GOP have jointly captured the executive and legislative functions of government and drag American down (see my signature quote below). For their joint inability to solve America’s problems, I blame them both.

LAST NIGHT was the Dems fault. They had one thing to accomplish: Beat the worst candidate ever to run. And they failed miserably.

Ron Scott

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1756 on: November 06, 2024, 05:44:47 AM »
But Ron, shouldn't this election be a condemnation of Republicans putting Trump up as a candidate? Even Republicans should have seen him as a nonstarter..instead this is an condemnation of democratic policies?

I understand this point and partially agree with it as I continue to maintain both parties suck.  But I have a hard time blaming the winner for winning. Trump was able to convince Americans to vote for him IN LIGHT OF THE DEMS’ PLATFORM. So in this case, especially given how horrific a person he is, I blame the Dems and their lack of a compelling platform to run on.

wenchsenior

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1757 on: November 06, 2024, 06:07:28 AM »
While the Dems don't have great policies, I don't think they should be blamed for failing to appeal to racists, sexists, fascists, deplorables and others who are small minded and fear migrants and change.

I understand that sentiment. But my point is: fearing migrants and fearing change and being tribalistic are not aberrations... they are not something caused by current society or social media or misinformation (though of course they can be exaggerated by those things).

They are default human traits, built in by evolution over billions of years.  And these traits have manifested in persistent patterns (often patterns that overturn the governments of well functioning democratic societies) repeatedly since at least the Roman Empire and probably before that.

So persistently designing messages that ignore that reality means you won't get to exercise power very often. It's entirely fine to take the stand that you want to appeal to some 'better angels' of human nature and you are welcome to do that. But it also means you are unlikely to get much chance to ever move a progressive agenda forward, even incrementally. 


wenchsenior

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1758 on: November 06, 2024, 06:11:02 AM »
Is anyone changing anything in their investment portfolio due to the election, and possible turmoil in the next months? I normally do not market time, but this time i'm wondering if the rules have changed...

Not right now, I expect things to be pretty stable for at least another year.

However, there is now a good chance that my husband's research scientist job won't exist (suspect the entire branch of gov't he works for will be eradicated next year with the new budget), so our retirement plans could be thrown into total chaos. We will have to decide if we want to shift to a more conservative mix than we previously wanted...
« Last Edit: November 06, 2024, 06:24:28 AM by wenchsenior »

FLBiker

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1759 on: November 06, 2024, 06:14:55 AM »
But my point is: fearing migrants and fearing change and being tribalistic are not aberrations... they are not something caused by current society or social media or misinformation (though of course they can be exaggerated by those things).

They are default human traits, built in by evolution over billions of years.  And these traits have manifested in persistent patterns (often patterns that overturn the governments of well functioning democratic societies) repeatedly since at least the Roman Empire and probably before that.

Some version of this is what I've long seen as a kind of fundamental flaw in democracy -- it's easier to appeal to the lowest common denominator than the "better angels".  In multi-party systems (e.g. more than 2) this seems to kind of work it self out a bit better as parties jostle to claim the center, but in a two party system I'm not sure what the solution is.

wenchsenior

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1760 on: November 06, 2024, 06:36:20 AM »
But my point is: fearing migrants and fearing change and being tribalistic are not aberrations... they are not something caused by current society or social media or misinformation (though of course they can be exaggerated by those things).

They are default human traits, built in by evolution over billions of years.  And these traits have manifested in persistent patterns (often patterns that overturn the governments of well functioning democratic societies) repeatedly since at least the Roman Empire and probably before that.

Some version of this is what I've long seen as a kind of fundamental flaw in democracy -- it's easier to appeal to the lowest common denominator than the "better angels".  In multi-party systems (e.g. more than 2) this seems to kind of work it self out a bit better as parties jostle to claim the center, but in a two party system I'm not sure what the solution is.

Correct. And the pattern tends to be that democracy usually holds as long as the 'empire' in question is growing/expanding, but then when conditions such as war, climate change, economic shocks of some sort, or notable wealth stratification occur that destabilize the social order and create anxiety about future prospects, citizens who formerly seemed happy to support a democracy quickly will vote to dismantle that system in favor of e.g., a strongman who promises to fix the thing causing the instability.

Humans tend to 'pull together under a bigger tent' and be more inclusive only when things are more stable. (This is often the exact opposite of what people might logically expect... one would think a global pandemic would create a sense of national unity, but it split us even more rapidly along preexisting idealogical and tribal divisions).

I've long assumed democracy was going to decline across the globe quite precipitously, as climate change in particular creates more uncertainty and fear; so I expect a pretty rapid devolution into a lot of autocracy and plutocracy in many of the Western nations going forward.

My husband and I keep saying "We are lucky not to have been born any later" for a lot of reasons...this being only one of them.

GuitarStv

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1761 on: November 06, 2024, 07:01:53 AM »

Herbert Derp

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1762 on: November 06, 2024, 07:29:34 AM »
I’ve been reading through this thread for the first time. Holy shit Ron Scott, you are based. Please keep posting here lol

Your posts are a breath of fresh air in these tedious online echo chambers.

Phenix

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1763 on: November 06, 2024, 07:36:24 AM »
While the Dems don't have great policies, I don't think they should be blamed for failing to appeal to racists, sexists, fascists, deplorables and others who are small minded and fear migrants and change.

In a nutshell, you have demonstrated why Trump is going to be our next president. The majority of Republican voters do not have an issue with legal immigration and positive change. They are not racist, sexist, or fascists. That narrative is tired and if the results from last night don't change the attitudes of Democrats, they're going to keep repeating the same mistakes.

Obama was the last Democrat to actually understand the assignment. Had it not been for Trump's COVID response, I don't think Biden would have won. And starting at Day 1 of Biden's presidency, Democrats should have been preparing their next candidate. For 4+ years Republicans pointed out Joe's declining mental state and then you send him up on stage to remove all doubt in Americans' minds. Then the party pulls a 180 from Joe's fine to last minute best option Harris. For how smart and educated the MMM Forum is, how anyone thought this election would turn out any different is baffling to some of us here.

Herbert Derp

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1764 on: November 06, 2024, 07:40:00 AM »
Plan for the worst, hope for the best.

How do you plan for the worst here?

I left the United States two years ago. I am now living comfortably very far away from everything.

Phenix

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1765 on: November 06, 2024, 07:42:10 AM »
I’ve been reading through this thread for the first time. Holy shit Ron Scott, you are based. Please keep posting here lol

Your posts are a breath of fresh air in these tedious online echo chambers.

Come on now, we all know that Ron Scott is just a troll who argues in bad faith. lol

bacchi

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1766 on: November 06, 2024, 07:48:09 AM »
While the Dems don't have great policies, I don't think they should be blamed for failing to appeal to racists, sexists, fascists, deplorables and others who are small minded and fear migrants and change.

In a nutshell, you have demonstrated why Trump is going to be our next president. The majority of Republican voters do not have an issue with legal immigration and positive change. They are not racist, sexist, or fascists. That narrative is tired and if the results from last night don't change the attitudes of Democrats, they're going to keep repeating the same mistakes.

Obama was the last Democrat to actually understand the assignment. Had it not been for Trump's COVID response, I don't think Biden would have won. And starting at Day 1 of Biden's presidency, Democrats should have been preparing their next candidate. For 4+ years Republicans pointed out Joe's declining mental state and then you send him up on stage to remove all doubt in Americans' minds. Then the party pulls a 180 from Joe's fine to last minute best option Harris. For how smart and educated the MMM Forum is, how anyone thought this election would turn out any different is baffling to some of us here.

Everyone is a genius in hindsight.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1767 on: November 06, 2024, 07:51:10 AM »
This outcome is absolutely the Democrats' fault for failing to learn. Their job is to win elections, not be righteous about how they should have won if the voters weren't such idiots.

Let me count the ways:

1) Coastal-big-city Democrats purged the party of Southern and Midwestern Blue Dogs over the past 25 years because they could not stand ideological compromise or party diversity on various issues that are required to win in those states, like gun control, the national debt, or voter IDs for example. Previously competitive states were defunded, dismissed, and given up on, like Ohio, Florida, and Iowa. Money and policy were focused on primary races in coastal cities. The "blue wall" has steadily crumbled this century until by 2024 California and *parts of* New England were all that was left. As a result, Democrats have only won the presidency in the 21st century when a crisis was occurring at the same time as voting was occurring, like a global financial crisis or pandemic. Things have to be going very, very badly for Dems to squeak through the presidency.

2) Defensive excuses about gerrymandering or judge nominations only serve as covers for the fact that Democrats are not competitive in most states, and lack the lower-level team to block anti-democratic changes and nominees. In many states, Republicans walk unchallenged into state legislatures, mayor races, and judge positions. Most of the country is ruled by one party - the Republicans - because they adapted themselves to the electorate while Dems failed to change with the times. The gerrymanders and voter purges are happening because the opposition is not strong enough. A true national party has the ideological flexibility and leadership development pipeline to compete everywhere. Democrats are a regional / coastal party.

3) Democrats are so coastal-city oriented now that they can only nominate lawyers from California, New England, or Chicago like Kerry, Biden, and now Harris. It is simply not possible for the modern party to nominate a Southern governor like Clinton or Carter. You can safely bet it will be another large-city lawyer running against J.D. Vance in 2028. They will lose too, unless there is an absolute crisis going on.

4) Democrats effectively turned down support from business people to chase votes from labor unions, which have steadily shrunk over the years and now represent less than 11% of workers. The gambit didn't pay off, as most union members now vote for Republicans, while Republicans have simultaneously bought the business community's support with tax breaks. Thus Democrats ended up with votes and donations from neither side. Unions served as a mental handle for blue-collar votes because most coastal-lawyer Democrats were unfamiliar with actual blue-collar people, and assumed they would simply vote as a bloc. When people talk elitist paternalism, look at this example.

5) Democrats failed to raise the alarm about conservative control of media, even as traditional journalism died, Fox News became the most popular network, and social media like YouTube and X became mainstreamed as sources of political information. Even as these conservative-biased platforms demoted progressive ideas while promoting conservative conspiracy theories, Democrats continued to pretend their message would be heard simply because they were CORRECT. Democrats even failed to confront conservative claims about "the liberal media" with facts about who owns it and how it is biased. As a result, most people now think "the media" has a liberal bias when in fact the opposite is true. Somehow this issue is STILL not on Democrats' radar, and we can expect it will continue to be hand-waved away. It's sad to watch Democrats grovel for air time on Fox News and X.

6) Another issue not on Democrats' radar is the unfairness of our criminal justice system. Billionaires like Trump with infinite money to spend on lawyers can literally get away with sedition, rape, and fraud, while the poor have to plea bargain for crimes they didn't commit because there is no money for public defenders. You know what Black and Latino voters are concerned about? The fact that they are routinely rounded up and sent to prison without fair trials. How have Dems been so incompetent not to draw a contrast between Trump's endless trials and the relatively sudden plea deals that demolish poorer families over things like smoking weed. Perhaps criticizing the criminal justice system seems like a bad look for a Democratic party dominated by lawyers, but all this idle talk about social justice ideals falls flat if you're not doing something about the main issue. Shockingly, Black and Latino voters did not turn out the vote for a prosecutor. Racists usually just talk shit on the internet, but the criminal justice system destroys their families every day. Which is more dangerous?

7) The whole "it's not our fault voters don't vote for us" attitude is exhibit A for the case that Democrats have become unable to learn from their mistakes or change into a nationally competitive party. It also seems like a strange thing to say if you are concerned about a fascist takeover of the United States. What level of navel gazing insularity does it take to believe these two things at once, instead of immediately looking for pragmatic solutions to an emergency? What level of ideological rigidity does it take to refuse to change in the face of two losses to a candidate as flawed as Trump? I swear if the house was on fire, Democrats would refuse to escape because the house shouldn't be on fire and it's someone else's fault it is on fire.

8) Harris ran the same positivity campaign that failed for Clinton in 2016, while Trump ran the same "everything is awful" campaign that worked for him in 2016. If you're suprised all this cheerleading didn't motivate voters, maybe consider that the last thing people with deep economic dissatisfaction want to hear is that everything is wonderful. "Oh, in that case I suppose it's my fault I can't afford a home, can't go to college without financially crippling myself for life, and have seen my cost of living go up over 20% during the Biden administration. What a charming narrative by the Democrats!" Yes, Harris was technically correct. Unemployment is low, inflation has been fixed, GDP growth is soaring, and Democrat supported bills are contributing mightily to economic growth. But it's utterly tone deaf to throw statistics at a middle class that is in steep decline. Imagine if Harris had (1) loudly and confidently acknowledged things had gotten worse for the middle class and poor, (2) explained the changes as a result of years of Republican policies, and (3) propose fresh solutions that we haven't been hearing for the last two decades. That is how you win elections, not by minimizing people's economic concerns and pretending there isn't a beggar at every intersection in America these days.

At this point I've lost any faith in Democrats' ability to learn or change. They will continue with the same rigid ideological formulas until democracy dies, which may have occurred already. If watching Trump win again - and probably a Republican sweep of Congress - hasn't motivated them to change, I don't know what will.

A shakeup is desperately needed, but there seems to be nobody left over from the purges that could lead such a charge and reshape the party into something new and effective. And every time I talk to a Democrat about these concerns, all I hear are more excuses and the occasional virtue signal. The lack of pragmatism is damning. The denial is so strong.

FINate

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1768 on: November 06, 2024, 08:01:17 AM »
I swear if the house was on fire, Democrats would refuse to escape because the house shouldn't be on fire and it's someone else's fault it is on fire.

Incredible summary^^^

Paper Chaser

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1769 on: November 06, 2024, 08:08:49 AM »
But my point is: fearing migrants and fearing change and being tribalistic are not aberrations... they are not something caused by current society or social media or misinformation (though of course they can be exaggerated by those things).

They are default human traits, built in by evolution over billions of years.  And these traits have manifested in persistent patterns (often patterns that overturn the governments of well functioning democratic societies) repeatedly since at least the Roman Empire and probably before that.

Some version of this is what I've long seen as a kind of fundamental flaw in democracy -- it's easier to appeal to the lowest common denominator than the "better angels".  In multi-party systems (e.g. more than 2) this seems to kind of work it self out a bit better as parties jostle to claim the center, but in a two party system I'm not sure what the solution is.

Correct. And the pattern tends to be that democracy usually holds as long as the 'empire' in question is growing/expanding, but then when conditions such as war, climate change, economic shocks of some sort, or notable wealth stratification occur that destabilize the social order and create anxiety about future prospects, citizens who formerly seemed happy to support a democracy quickly will vote to dismantle that system in favor of e.g., a strongman who promises to fix the thing causing the instability.

Humans tend to 'pull together under a bigger tent' and be more inclusive only when things are more stable. (This is often the exact opposite of what people might logically expect... one would think a global pandemic would create a sense of national unity, but it split us even more rapidly along preexisting idealogical and tribal divisions).

I've long assumed democracy was going to decline across the globe quite precipitously, as climate change in particular creates more uncertainty and fear; so I expect a pretty rapid devolution into a lot of autocracy and plutocracy in many of the Western nations going forward.

My husband and I keep saying "We are lucky not to have been born any later" for a lot of reasons...this being only one of them.

Nobody siding with far-Right leaning politicians fears climate change. Their fear is rooted in their (in)ability to provide for their families, or what they see as erosion of their way of life. That's why stronger immigration policies, vowing to disassemble "The System", etc are common themes among increasingly successful conservative candidates across the globe.

It's rooted in a widening wealth gap that began 50 years ago when corporations shifted priorities to focus on shareholder benefit above all. Costs for housing, education, insurance, food, etc are all outpacing inflation and wages aren't close to maintaining status quo for most people which makes it harder to survive in a way that people feel they should be able to.

dandarc

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1770 on: November 06, 2024, 08:13:23 AM »
But my point is: fearing migrants and fearing change and being tribalistic are not aberrations... they are not something caused by current society or social media or misinformation (though of course they can be exaggerated by those things).

They are default human traits, built in by evolution over billions of years.  And these traits have manifested in persistent patterns (often patterns that overturn the governments of well functioning democratic societies) repeatedly since at least the Roman Empire and probably before that.

Some version of this is what I've long seen as a kind of fundamental flaw in democracy -- it's easier to appeal to the lowest common denominator than the "better angels".  In multi-party systems (e.g. more than 2) this seems to kind of work it self out a bit better as parties jostle to claim the center, but in a two party system I'm not sure what the solution is.

Correct. And the pattern tends to be that democracy usually holds as long as the 'empire' in question is growing/expanding, but then when conditions such as war, climate change, economic shocks of some sort, or notable wealth stratification occur that destabilize the social order and create anxiety about future prospects, citizens who formerly seemed happy to support a democracy quickly will vote to dismantle that system in favor of e.g., a strongman who promises to fix the thing causing the instability.

Humans tend to 'pull together under a bigger tent' and be more inclusive only when things are more stable. (This is often the exact opposite of what people might logically expect... one would think a global pandemic would create a sense of national unity, but it split us even more rapidly along preexisting idealogical and tribal divisions).

I've long assumed democracy was going to decline across the globe quite precipitously, as climate change in particular creates more uncertainty and fear; so I expect a pretty rapid devolution into a lot of autocracy and plutocracy in many of the Western nations going forward.

My husband and I keep saying "We are lucky not to have been born any later" for a lot of reasons...this being only one of them.

Nobody siding with far-Right leaning politicians fears climate change. Their fear is rooted in their (in)ability to provide for their families, or what they see as erosion of their way of life. That's why stronger immigration policies, vowing to disassemble "The System", etc are common themes among increasingly successful conservative candidates across the globe.

It's rooted in a widening wealth gap that began 50 years ago when corporations shifted priorities to focus on shareholder benefit above all. Costs for housing, education, insurance, food, etc are all outpacing inflation and wages aren't close to maintaining status quo for most people which makes it harder to survive in a way that people feel they should be able to.
Frustrating because that just gets further exacerbated when the right-wingers are in charge, which due to the minority-rule provisions of our current system they've held a lot of power most of the time even when democrats have nominally had control.

iris lily

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1771 on: November 06, 2024, 08:17:00 AM »
I swear if the house was on fire, Democrats would refuse to escape because the house shouldn't be on fire and it's someone else's fault it is on fire.

Incredible summary^^^

My only quibble is that Iowa SHOULD be dismissed from the Democratic lineup because it only has 6 electoral college votes. FK Those old rich farmers.

—Iris, old rich owner of Iowa farmland

wenchsenior

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1772 on: November 06, 2024, 08:19:28 AM »
This outcome is absolutely the Democrats' fault for failing to learn. Their job is to win elections, not be righteous about how they should have won if the voters weren't such idiots.

Let me count the ways:

1) Coastal-big-city Democrats purged the party of Southern and Midwestern Blue Dogs over the past 25 years because they could not stand ideological compromise or party diversity on various issues that are required to win in those states, like gun control, the national debt, or voter IDs for example. Previously competitive states were defunded, dismissed, and given up on, like Ohio, Florida, and Iowa. Money and policy were focused on primary races in coastal cities. The "blue wall" has steadily crumbled this century until by 2024 California and *parts of* New England were all that was left. As a result, Democrats have only won the presidency in the 21st century when a crisis was occurring at the same time as voting was occurring, like a global financial crisis or pandemic. Things have to be going very, very badly for Dems to squeak through the presidency.

2) Defensive excuses about gerrymandering or judge nominations only serve as covers for the fact that Democrats are not competitive in most states, and lack the lower-level team to block anti-democratic changes and nominees. In many states, Republicans walk unchallenged into state legislatures, mayor races, and judge positions. Most of the country is ruled by one party - the Republicans - because they adapted themselves to the electorate while Dems failed to change with the times. The gerrymanders and voter purges are happening because the opposition is not strong enough. A true national party has the ideological flexibility and leadership development pipeline to compete everywhere. Democrats are a regional / coastal party.

3) Democrats are so coastal-city oriented now that they can only nominate lawyers from California, New England, or Chicago like Kerry, Biden, and now Harris. It is simply not possible for the modern party to nominate a Southern governor like Clinton or Carter. You can safely bet it will be another large-city lawyer running against J.D. Vance in 2028. They will lose too, unless there is an absolute crisis going on.

4) Democrats effectively turned down support from business people to chase votes from labor unions, which have steadily shrunk over the years and now represent less than 11% of workers. The gambit didn't pay off, as most union members now vote for Republicans, while Republicans have simultaneously bought the business community's support with tax breaks. Thus Democrats ended up with votes and donations from neither side. Unions served as a mental handle for blue-collar votes because most coastal-lawyer Democrats were unfamiliar with actual blue-collar people, and assumed they would simply vote as a bloc. When people talk elitist paternalism, look at this example.

5) Democrats failed to raise the alarm about conservative control of media, even as traditional journalism died, Fox News became the most popular network, and social media like YouTube and X became mainstreamed as sources of political information. Even as these conservative-biased platforms demoted progressive ideas while promoting conservative conspiracy theories, Democrats continued to pretend their message would be heard simply because they were CORRECT. Democrats even failed to confront conservative claims about "the liberal media" with facts about who owns it and how it is biased. As a result, most people now think "the media" has a liberal bias when in fact the opposite is true. Somehow this issue is STILL not on Democrats' radar, and we can expect it will continue to be hand-waved away. It's sad to watch Democrats grovel for air time on Fox News and X.

6) Another issue not on Democrats' radar is the unfairness of our criminal justice system. Billionaires like Trump with infinite money to spend on lawyers can literally get away with sedition, rape, and fraud, while the poor have to plea bargain for crimes they didn't commit because there is no money for public defenders. You know what Black and Latino voters are concerned about? The fact that they are routinely rounded up and sent to prison without fair trials. How have Dems been so incompetent not to draw a contrast between Trump's endless trials and the relatively sudden plea deals that demolish poorer families over things like smoking weed. Perhaps criticizing the criminal justice system seems like a bad look for a Democratic party dominated by lawyers, but all this idle talk about social justice ideals falls flat if you're not doing something about the main issue. Shockingly, Black and Latino voters did not turn out the vote for a prosecutor. Racists usually just talk shit on the internet, but the criminal justice system destroys their families every day. Which is more dangerous?

7) The whole "it's not our fault voters don't vote for us" attitude is exhibit A for the case that Democrats have become unable to learn from their mistakes or change into a nationally competitive party. It also seems like a strange thing to say if you are concerned about a fascist takeover of the United States. What level of navel gazing insularity does it take to believe these two things at once, instead of immediately looking for pragmatic solutions to an emergency? What level of ideological rigidity does it take to refuse to change in the face of two losses to a candidate as flawed as Trump? I swear if the house was on fire, Democrats would refuse to escape because the house shouldn't be on fire and it's someone else's fault it is on fire.

8) Harris ran the same positivity campaign that failed for Clinton in 2016, while Trump ran the same "everything is awful" campaign that worked for him in 2016. If you're suprised all this cheerleading didn't motivate voters, maybe consider that the last thing people with deep economic dissatisfaction want to hear is that everything is wonderful. "Oh, in that case I suppose it's my fault I can't afford a home, can't go to college without financially crippling myself for life, and have seen my cost of living go up over 20% during the Biden administration. What a charming narrative by the Democrats!" Yes, Harris was technically correct. Unemployment is low, inflation has been fixed, GDP growth is soaring, and Democrat supported bills are contributing mightily to economic growth. But it's utterly tone deaf to throw statistics at a middle class that is in steep decline. Imagine if Harris had (1) loudly and confidently acknowledged things had gotten worse for the middle class and poor, (2) explained the changes as a result of years of Republican policies, and (3) propose fresh solutions that we haven't been hearing for the last two decades. That is how you win elections, not by minimizing people's economic concerns and pretending there isn't a beggar at every intersection in America these days.

At this point I've lost any faith in Democrats' ability to learn or change. They will continue with the same rigid ideological formulas until democracy dies, which may have occurred already. If watching Trump win again - and probably a Republican sweep of Congress - hasn't motivated them to change, I don't know what will.

A shakeup is desperately needed, but there seems to be nobody left over from the purges that could lead such a charge and reshape the party into something new and effective. And every time I talk to a Democrat about these concerns, all I hear are more excuses and the occasional virtue signal. The lack of pragmatism is damning. The denial is so strong.

I agree with almost all of this.

Number 8 should be hammered home over and over.

Also, here's a fascinating note:  It is NOT the 'cult of Trump' that is primarily responsible for this outcome. Harris consistently polls as MORE personally liked and likeable than Trump, and had Biden stayed on, it would have been even more of a blowout. The popular vote is going for GOP messaging and policy proposals more than for personality; a fuck ton of people are voting for the GOP despite Trump. So getting rid of Trump won't fix any of the Dem party problems (more likely it will make them worse).



iris lily

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1773 on: November 06, 2024, 08:19:36 AM »
While the Dems don't have great policies, I don't think they should be blamed for failing to appeal to racists, sexists, fascists, deplorables and others who are small minded and fear migrants and change.

In a nutshell, you have demonstrated why Trump is going to be our next president. The majority of Republican voters do not have an issue with legal immigration and positive change. They are not racist, sexist, or fascists. That narrative is tired and if the results from last night don't change the attitudes of Democrats, they're going to keep repeating the same mistakes.

Obama was the last Democrat to actually understand the assignment. Had it not been for Trump's COVID response, I don't think Biden would have won. And starting at Day 1 of Biden's presidency, Democrats should have been preparing their next candidate. For 4+ years Republicans pointed out Joe's declining mental state and then you send him up on stage to remove all doubt in Americans' minds. Then the party pulls a 180 from Joe's fine to last minute best option Harris. For how smart and educated the MMM Forum is, how anyone thought this election would turn out any different is baffling to some of us here.

Everyone is a genius in hindsight.

It’s a nice summary though.

And the new age Republicans are just as entrenched in their stupid, limiting ideas.

At least The Donald was squishy about abortion and he recognized that the Republican party needs to let go of that campaign tool.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2024, 08:56:45 AM by iris lily »

MMMarbleheader

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1774 on: November 06, 2024, 08:21:28 AM »
This outcome is absolutely the Democrats' fault for failing to learn. Their job is to win elections, not be righteous about how they should have won if the voters weren't such idiots.

Let me count the ways:

1) Coastal-big-city Democrats purged the party of Southern and Midwestern Blue Dogs over the past 25 years because they could not stand ideological compromise or party diversity on various issues that are required to win in those states, like gun control, the national debt, or voter IDs for example. Previously competitive states were defunded, dismissed, and given up on, like Ohio, Florida, and Iowa. Money and policy were focused on primary races in coastal cities. The "blue wall" has steadily crumbled this century until by 2024 California and *parts of* New England were all that was left. As a result, Democrats have only won the presidency in the 21st century when a crisis was occurring at the same time as voting was occurring, like a global financial crisis or pandemic. Things have to be going very, very badly for Dems to squeak through the presidency.

2) Defensive excuses about gerrymandering or judge nominations only serve as covers for the fact that Democrats are not competitive in most states, and lack the lower-level team to block anti-democratic changes and nominees. In many states, Republicans walk unchallenged into state legislatures, mayor races, and judge positions. Most of the country is ruled by one party - the Republicans - because they adapted themselves to the electorate while Dems failed to change with the times. The gerrymanders and voter purges are happening because the opposition is not strong enough. A true national party has the ideological flexibility and leadership development pipeline to compete everywhere. Democrats are a regional / coastal party.

3) Democrats are so coastal-city oriented now that they can only nominate lawyers from California, New England, or Chicago like Kerry, Biden, and now Harris. It is simply not possible for the modern party to nominate a Southern governor like Clinton or Carter. You can safely bet it will be another large-city lawyer running against J.D. Vance in 2028. They will lose too, unless there is an absolute crisis going on.

4) Democrats effectively turned down support from business people to chase votes from labor unions, which have steadily shrunk over the years and now represent less than 11% of workers. The gambit didn't pay off, as most union members now vote for Republicans, while Republicans have simultaneously bought the business community's support with tax breaks. Thus Democrats ended up with votes and donations from neither side. Unions served as a mental handle for blue-collar votes because most coastal-lawyer Democrats were unfamiliar with actual blue-collar people, and assumed they would simply vote as a bloc. When people talk elitist paternalism, look at this example.

5) Democrats failed to raise the alarm about conservative control of media, even as traditional journalism died, Fox News became the most popular network, and social media like YouTube and X became mainstreamed as sources of political information. Even as these conservative-biased platforms demoted progressive ideas while promoting conservative conspiracy theories, Democrats continued to pretend their message would be heard simply because they were CORRECT. Democrats even failed to confront conservative claims about "the liberal media" with facts about who owns it and how it is biased. As a result, most people now think "the media" has a liberal bias when in fact the opposite is true. Somehow this issue is STILL not on Democrats' radar, and we can expect it will continue to be hand-waved away. It's sad to watch Democrats grovel for air time on Fox News and X.

6) Another issue not on Democrats' radar is the unfairness of our criminal justice system. Billionaires like Trump with infinite money to spend on lawyers can literally get away with sedition, rape, and fraud, while the poor have to plea bargain for crimes they didn't commit because there is no money for public defenders. You know what Black and Latino voters are concerned about? The fact that they are routinely rounded up and sent to prison without fair trials. How have Dems been so incompetent not to draw a contrast between Trump's endless trials and the relatively sudden plea deals that demolish poorer families over things like smoking weed. Perhaps criticizing the criminal justice system seems like a bad look for a Democratic party dominated by lawyers, but all this idle talk about social justice ideals falls flat if you're not doing something about the main issue. Shockingly, Black and Latino voters did not turn out the vote for a prosecutor. Racists usually just talk shit on the internet, but the criminal justice system destroys their families every day. Which is more dangerous?

7) The whole "it's not our fault voters don't vote for us" attitude is exhibit A for the case that Democrats have become unable to learn from their mistakes or change into a nationally competitive party. It also seems like a strange thing to say if you are concerned about a fascist takeover of the United States. What level of navel gazing insularity does it take to believe these two things at once, instead of immediately looking for pragmatic solutions to an emergency? What level of ideological rigidity does it take to refuse to change in the face of two losses to a candidate as flawed as Trump? I swear if the house was on fire, Democrats would refuse to escape because the house shouldn't be on fire and it's someone else's fault it is on fire.

8) Harris ran the same positivity campaign that failed for Clinton in 2016, while Trump ran the same "everything is awful" campaign that worked for him in 2016. If you're suprised all this cheerleading didn't motivate voters, maybe consider that the last thing people with deep economic dissatisfaction want to hear is that everything is wonderful. "Oh, in that case I suppose it's my fault I can't afford a home, can't go to college without financially crippling myself for life, and have seen my cost of living go up over 20% during the Biden administration. What a charming narrative by the Democrats!" Yes, Harris was technically correct. Unemployment is low, inflation has been fixed, GDP growth is soaring, and Democrat supported bills are contributing mightily to economic growth. But it's utterly tone deaf to throw statistics at a middle class that is in steep decline. Imagine if Harris had (1) loudly and confidently acknowledged things had gotten worse for the middle class and poor, (2) explained the changes as a result of years of Republican policies, and (3) propose fresh solutions that we haven't been hearing for the last two decades. That is how you win elections, not by minimizing people's economic concerns and pretending there isn't a beggar at every intersection in America these days.

At this point I've lost any faith in Democrats' ability to learn or change. They will continue with the same rigid ideological formulas until democracy dies, which may have occurred already. If watching Trump win again - and probably a Republican sweep of Congress - hasn't motivated them to change, I don't know what will.

A shakeup is desperately needed, but there seems to be nobody left over from the purges that could lead such a charge and reshape the party into something new and effective. And every time I talk to a Democrat about these concerns, all I hear are more excuses and the occasional virtue signal. The lack of pragmatism is damning. The denial is so strong.

I like the term "Brahmin Left" to describe the current Democrats. My favorite recent Dems Tim Ryan and Sherrod Brown are both gone. Heck, a Casey is going to probably lose in PA. Tester Gone. Shit looks bleak

wenchsenior

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1775 on: November 06, 2024, 08:23:13 AM »
But my point is: fearing migrants and fearing change and being tribalistic are not aberrations... they are not something caused by current society or social media or misinformation (though of course they can be exaggerated by those things).

They are default human traits, built in by evolution over billions of years.  And these traits have manifested in persistent patterns (often patterns that overturn the governments of well functioning democratic societies) repeatedly since at least the Roman Empire and probably before that.

Some version of this is what I've long seen as a kind of fundamental flaw in democracy -- it's easier to appeal to the lowest common denominator than the "better angels".  In multi-party systems (e.g. more than 2) this seems to kind of work it self out a bit better as parties jostle to claim the center, but in a two party system I'm not sure what the solution is.

Correct. And the pattern tends to be that democracy usually holds as long as the 'empire' in question is growing/expanding, but then when conditions such as war, climate change, economic shocks of some sort, or notable wealth stratification occur that destabilize the social order and create anxiety about future prospects, citizens who formerly seemed happy to support a democracy quickly will vote to dismantle that system in favor of e.g., a strongman who promises to fix the thing causing the instability.

Humans tend to 'pull together under a bigger tent' and be more inclusive only when things are more stable. (This is often the exact opposite of what people might logically expect... one would think a global pandemic would create a sense of national unity, but it split us even more rapidly along preexisting idealogical and tribal divisions).

I've long assumed democracy was going to decline across the globe quite precipitously, as climate change in particular creates more uncertainty and fear; so I expect a pretty rapid devolution into a lot of autocracy and plutocracy in many of the Western nations going forward.

My husband and I keep saying "We are lucky not to have been born any later" for a lot of reasons...this being only one of them.

Nobody siding with far-Right leaning politicians fears climate change. Their fear is rooted in their (in)ability to provide for their families, or what they see as erosion of their way of life. That's why stronger immigration policies, vowing to disassemble "The System", etc are common themes among increasingly successful conservative candidates across the globe.

It's rooted in a widening wealth gap that began 50 years ago when corporations shifted priorities to focus on shareholder benefit above all. Costs for housing, education, insurance, food, etc are all outpacing inflation and wages aren't close to maintaining status quo for most people which makes it harder to survive in a way that people feel they should be able to.

To be clear,  I didn't mean that specific GOP voters accept the reality of climate change and consciously fear it. I meant that the inevitable societal disruption caused/exacerbated by climate change increases peoples' anxiety about the future. One doesn't even have to believe climate change is real (or that it is human caused) to be affected by such disruption.

bacchi

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1776 on: November 06, 2024, 08:23:50 AM »
One word reason that Trump won: inflation (Chip's #8). Or as Carville said, "It's the economy, stupid!"

Democrats thought they could outrun it but never fully addressed it. The M1 spike was in Trump's final year, and it wasn't his fault either, but Biden and the Democrats got all the blame.

Going back to the perception of the economy, if conservatives think it's bad now, what will they do when it's really bad with mass layoffs and house equity is collapsing?

iris lily

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1777 on: November 06, 2024, 08:25:53 AM »
Spoiled here in CO.  Received mail ballot weeks ago, took leisurely time reading through and researching all the propositions, etc., dropped it off a week ago at a location 3 miles from my house, received email confirmation that it had been received.

As a CO resident, I look at lines at polling locations and think WHY?  It feels backwards.

We truly are spoiled here. Everyone gets a ballot in the mail and you can fill it out at your leisure. It’s particularly helpful for obscure ballot measures that require some thought and research.  And you can even check the status of your ballot online. I turned mine in last week, and I could see that it was processed by the following morning.

It may be hard to believe, but those of us in  flyover country that do not have automatic mail in ballot systems actually get a hold of the entire ballot through various sources early on and can sit down with it and research options. We don’t need our real life ballot in hand to know what’s on it.

dandarc

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1778 on: November 06, 2024, 08:26:53 AM »
One word reason that Trump won: inflation (Chip's #8). Or as Carville said, "It's the economy, stupid!"

Democrats thought they could outrun it but never fully addressed it. The M1 spike was in Trump's final year, and it wasn't his fault either, but Biden and the Democrats got all the blame.

Going back to the perception of the economy, if conservatives think it's bad now, what will they do when it's really bad with mass layoffs and house equity is collapsing?
They'll vote for the republicans again. And watch the world burn because of the policies in place from very people they voted for and choose not to see it.

Paper Chaser

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1779 on: November 06, 2024, 08:30:06 AM »
But my point is: fearing migrants and fearing change and being tribalistic are not aberrations... they are not something caused by current society or social media or misinformation (though of course they can be exaggerated by those things).

They are default human traits, built in by evolution over billions of years.  And these traits have manifested in persistent patterns (often patterns that overturn the governments of well functioning democratic societies) repeatedly since at least the Roman Empire and probably before that.

Some version of this is what I've long seen as a kind of fundamental flaw in democracy -- it's easier to appeal to the lowest common denominator than the "better angels".  In multi-party systems (e.g. more than 2) this seems to kind of work it self out a bit better as parties jostle to claim the center, but in a two party system I'm not sure what the solution is.

Correct. And the pattern tends to be that democracy usually holds as long as the 'empire' in question is growing/expanding, but then when conditions such as war, climate change, economic shocks of some sort, or notable wealth stratification occur that destabilize the social order and create anxiety about future prospects, citizens who formerly seemed happy to support a democracy quickly will vote to dismantle that system in favor of e.g., a strongman who promises to fix the thing causing the instability.

Humans tend to 'pull together under a bigger tent' and be more inclusive only when things are more stable. (This is often the exact opposite of what people might logically expect... one would think a global pandemic would create a sense of national unity, but it split us even more rapidly along preexisting idealogical and tribal divisions).

I've long assumed democracy was going to decline across the globe quite precipitously, as climate change in particular creates more uncertainty and fear; so I expect a pretty rapid devolution into a lot of autocracy and plutocracy in many of the Western nations going forward.

My husband and I keep saying "We are lucky not to have been born any later" for a lot of reasons...this being only one of them.

Nobody siding with far-Right leaning politicians fears climate change. Their fear is rooted in their (in)ability to provide for their families, or what they see as erosion of their way of life. That's why stronger immigration policies, vowing to disassemble "The System", etc are common themes among increasingly successful conservative candidates across the globe.

It's rooted in a widening wealth gap that began 50 years ago when corporations shifted priorities to focus on shareholder benefit above all. Costs for housing, education, insurance, food, etc are all outpacing inflation and wages aren't close to maintaining status quo for most people which makes it harder to survive in a way that people feel they should be able to.

To be clear,  I didn't mean that specific GOP voters accept the reality of climate change and consciously fear it. I meant that the inevitable societal disruption caused/exacerbated by climate change increases peoples' anxiety about the future. One doesn't even have to believe climate change is real (or that it is human caused) to be affected by such disruption.

Right. And I'm saying that people that are struggling to pay their bills this month aren't going to feel much fear about climate change's effects. You deal with what's directly in front of you, and a faltering middle class has more pressing issues to fear than climate change. The societal disruption at the root here began 50 years ago and is based in economics. Climate change may also disrupt things, but that's a much more indirect and opaque issue for many voters than ever increasing costs and stagnant wages.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2024, 08:32:36 AM by Paper Chaser »

wenchsenior

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1780 on: November 06, 2024, 08:38:20 AM »
But my point is: fearing migrants and fearing change and being tribalistic are not aberrations... they are not something caused by current society or social media or misinformation (though of course they can be exaggerated by those things).

They are default human traits, built in by evolution over billions of years.  And these traits have manifested in persistent patterns (often patterns that overturn the governments of well functioning democratic societies) repeatedly since at least the Roman Empire and probably before that.

Some version of this is what I've long seen as a kind of fundamental flaw in democracy -- it's easier to appeal to the lowest common denominator than the "better angels".  In multi-party systems (e.g. more than 2) this seems to kind of work it self out a bit better as parties jostle to claim the center, but in a two party system I'm not sure what the solution is.

Correct. And the pattern tends to be that democracy usually holds as long as the 'empire' in question is growing/expanding, but then when conditions such as war, climate change, economic shocks of some sort, or notable wealth stratification occur that destabilize the social order and create anxiety about future prospects, citizens who formerly seemed happy to support a democracy quickly will vote to dismantle that system in favor of e.g., a strongman who promises to fix the thing causing the instability.

Humans tend to 'pull together under a bigger tent' and be more inclusive only when things are more stable. (This is often the exact opposite of what people might logically expect... one would think a global pandemic would create a sense of national unity, but it split us even more rapidly along preexisting idealogical and tribal divisions).

I've long assumed democracy was going to decline across the globe quite precipitously, as climate change in particular creates more uncertainty and fear; so I expect a pretty rapid devolution into a lot of autocracy and plutocracy in many of the Western nations going forward.

My husband and I keep saying "We are lucky not to have been born any later" for a lot of reasons...this being only one of them.

Nobody siding with far-Right leaning politicians fears climate change. Their fear is rooted in their (in)ability to provide for their families, or what they see as erosion of their way of life. That's why stronger immigration policies, vowing to disassemble "The System", etc are common themes among increasingly successful conservative candidates across the globe.

It's rooted in a widening wealth gap that began 50 years ago when corporations shifted priorities to focus on shareholder benefit above all. Costs for housing, education, insurance, food, etc are all outpacing inflation and wages aren't close to maintaining status quo for most people which makes it harder to survive in a way that people feel they should be able to.

To be clear,  I didn't mean that specific GOP voters accept the reality of climate change and consciously fear it. I meant that the inevitable societal disruption caused/exacerbated by climate change increases peoples' anxiety about the future. One doesn't even have to believe climate change is real (or that it is human caused) to be affected by such disruption.

Right. And I'm saying that people that are struggling to pay their bills this month aren't going to feel much fear about climate change's effects. You deal with what's directly in front of you, and a faltering middle class has more pressing issues to fear than climate change. The societal disruption at the root here began 50 years ago and is based in economics. Climate change may also disrupt things, but that's a much more indirect and opaque issue for many voters than ever increasing costs and stagnant wages.

We are in agreement. ETA:  Generally speaking, wealth stratification absolutely predisposes societies throughout history to this type of upheaval.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2024, 08:39:53 AM by wenchsenior »

GuitarStv

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1781 on: November 06, 2024, 08:39:03 AM »
2024 is the warmest year on record globally.  Again.  I've been wearing short sleeves while walking the dog in 24 C degree weather this November in Toronto, Canada.  Temperatures are normally edging around freezing here.  Or at least they once were.

Climate change doesn't seem far away at all.

Radagast

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1782 on: November 06, 2024, 08:40:26 AM »
While the Dems don't have great policies, I don't think they should be blamed for failing to appeal to racists, sexists, fascists, deplorables and others who are small minded and fear migrants and change.

In a nutshell, you have demonstrated why Trump is going to be our next president. The majority of Republican voters do not have an issue with legal immigration and positive change. They are not racist, sexist, or fascists. That narrative is tired and if the results from last night don't change the attitudes of Democrats, they're going to keep repeating the same mistakes.

Obama was the last Democrat to actually understand the assignment. Had it not been for Trump's COVID response, I don't think Biden would have won. And starting at Day 1 of Biden's presidency, Democrats should have been preparing their next candidate. For 4+ years Republicans pointed out Joe's declining mental state and then you send him up on stage to remove all doubt in Americans' minds. Then the party pulls a 180 from Joe's fine to last minute best option Harris. For how smart and educated the MMM Forum is, how anyone thought this election would turn out any different is baffling to some of us here.

Everyone is a genius in hindsight.

It’s a nice summary though.

And the new age Republicans are just as entrenched in their stupid, limiting ideas.

At least The Donald was squishy about abortion and he recognized that the Republican party needs to let go of that essay campaign tool.
Unfortunately people with varying opinions have been banned or driven off, so we'll likely never be able to have a good discussion here, though I'd like to see one.

Paper Chaser

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1783 on: November 06, 2024, 08:46:54 AM »
2024 is the warmest year on record globally.  Again.  I've been wearing short sleeves while walking the dog in 24 C degree weather this November in Toronto, Canada.  Temperatures are normally edging around freezing here.  Or at least they once were.

Climate change doesn't seem far away at all.

No doubt. But do you think people are more anxious about wearing short sleeves at weird times or about paying for both groceries and their mortgage this month after insurance has skyrocketed and food prices have soared? Which one is going to be concerning enough for the average person to motivate them politically?

Dancin'Dog

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1784 on: November 06, 2024, 08:48:30 AM »
What were the voter turnout numbers for 2024 vs 2020 national elections?  They seem much lower for 2024, but I can't seem to find the official numbers.

jrhampt

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1785 on: November 06, 2024, 08:49:07 AM »
2024 is the warmest year on record globally.  Again.  I've been wearing short sleeves while walking the dog in 24 C degree weather this November in Toronto, Canada.  Temperatures are normally edging around freezing here.  Or at least they once were.

Climate change doesn't seem far away at all.

Yeah, climate change is here.  It's in the 70s this week.  We had catastrophic flooding inland (not flood plains, not tropical storm related, just extreme rainfall) in CT in August and currently are on fire in a few places because we've had no rain for about 6 weeks.  We lurch from floods to fires and homeowner's insurance and car insurance keeps rising with every renewal.  We are already feeling the effects financially, whether we know it or not.  Financially and otherwise.

GuitarStv

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1786 on: November 06, 2024, 08:59:29 AM »
2024 is the warmest year on record globally.  Again.  I've been wearing short sleeves while walking the dog in 24 C degree weather this November in Toronto, Canada.  Temperatures are normally edging around freezing here.  Or at least they once were.

Climate change doesn't seem far away at all.

No doubt. But do you think people are more anxious about wearing short sleeves at weird times or about paying for both groceries and their mortgage this month after insurance has skyrocketed and food prices have soared? Which one is going to be concerning enough for the average person to motivate them politically?

Food prices will continue to soar as crops fail more often due to the unusual weather.  The air will be unbreathable again (and more often) as wildfires become more and more frequent and smoke drifts everywhere across North America.  Insurance skyrockets because of increased flooding and wind damage.

It's rapidly becoming harder to remain willfully ignorant.

Psychstache

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1787 on: November 06, 2024, 09:01:05 AM »
What were the voter turnout numbers for 2024 vs 2020 national elections?  They seem much lower for 2024, but I can't seem to find the official numbers.

From the Google/Wikipedia:

2024 (as of 10am, 11/6):

Harris - 66,712,662 votes (47.5%)
Trump - 71,571,051 votes (51%)

2020:

Biden - 81,283,501 votes (51.3%)
Trump - 74,223,975 votes (46.8%)

LaineyAZ

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1788 on: November 06, 2024, 09:06:00 AM »
So the Democrats have to be perfect while the Republicans' being misogynistic, racist, anti-science, etc. isn't a dealbreaker.

So disgusted.  Very sad for our country, our children and our grandchildren.  Sorry to the Canadians and Europeans and any other non-U.S. viewers here, most of us realize what a disaster this would be and now it's happening.

Well, most empires last about 250 years so the U.S. is right on schedule.

But hey, at least the stock market is happy

brandon1827

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1789 on: November 06, 2024, 09:06:26 AM »
What were the voter turnout numbers for 2024 vs 2020 national elections?  They seem much lower for 2024, but I can't seem to find the official numbers.

2020: Biden 81 million, Trump 74 million
2024: Harris 66 million, Trump 71 million

Something seems off about these numbers to me. I was reading of record turnouts and I have difficulty believing 15 million democrats stayed home this year

LennStar

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1790 on: November 06, 2024, 09:15:33 AM »
And herein lies the crux of the problem…an amazing inability to respond to what people are actually saying.

I DID NOT SAY Democrats weren’t able to solve problems because of Republican interference.

Yeah, and that is the problem.
You didn't say it.
Even though that is what happened.

Republicans blaming Democrats for the results of Trumps tax breaks for the rich. You do not say it's Trump's fault, you say it's the Democrats not being able to repair the parts Trump has broken.
So you vote Trump again.

It
Just
Don't
Compute.


Quote
2020: Biden 81 million, Trump 74 million
2024: Harris 66 million, Trump 71 million

Something seems off about these numbers to me. I was reading of record turnouts and I have difficulty believing 15 million democrats stayed home this year
I have seen an account of oversee votes (which are mostly D) have been challenged (would not be surprised with Musk's data and money).
Would that add up the numbers?

dandarc

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1791 on: November 06, 2024, 09:16:55 AM »
There aren't 15 million expats.

dividendman

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1792 on: November 06, 2024, 09:21:32 AM »
And herein lies the crux of the problem…an amazing inability to respond to what people are actually saying.

I DID NOT SAY Democrats weren’t able to solve problems because of Republican interference.

Yeah, and that is the problem.
You didn't say it.
Even though that is what happened.

Republicans blaming Democrats for the results of Trumps tax breaks for the rich. You do not say it's Trump's fault, you say it's the Democrats not being able to repair the parts Trump has broken.
So you vote Trump again.

It
Just
Don't
Compute.


Quote
2020: Biden 81 million, Trump 74 million
2024: Harris 66 million, Trump 71 million

Something seems off about these numbers to me. I was reading of record turnouts and I have difficulty believing 15 million democrats stayed home this year
I have seen an account of oversee votes (which are mostly D) have been challenged (would not be surprised with Musk's data and money).
Would that add up the numbers?


Nothing if off with the numbers, California is a huge state by population, only have 58% reporting and is breaking for democrats as usual (but by far less, only about 57% to Harris compared to 63% for Biden). California is slow at counting and counts ballots delivered up to a week after the election. Other states also haven't counted many of their ballots.

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1793 on: November 06, 2024, 09:46:35 AM »
What were the voter turnout numbers for 2024 vs 2020 national elections?  They seem much lower for 2024, but I can't seem to find the official numbers.

2020: Biden 81 million, Trump 74 million
2024: Harris 66 million, Trump 71 million

Something seems off about these numbers to me. I was reading of record turnouts and I have difficulty believing 15 million democrats stayed home this year

There's a simple answer for that.

bacchi

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1794 on: November 06, 2024, 09:57:57 AM »
What were the voter turnout numbers for 2024 vs 2020 national elections?  They seem much lower for 2024, but I can't seem to find the official numbers.

2020: Biden 81 million, Trump 74 million
2024: Harris 66 million, Trump 71 million

Something seems off about these numbers to me. I was reading of record turnouts and I have difficulty believing 15 million democrats stayed home this year

There's a simple answer for that.

What is it? It's not about the CyberNinja recount, is it?

iris lily

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1795 on: November 06, 2024, 10:02:39 AM »
It's always the dems fault.The next 4 years are the dems fault, because more people voted for Trump. The people who voted for Trump bear no responsibility.

Nope.

The Dems and the GOP have jointly captured the executive and legislative functions of government and drag American down (see my signature quote below). For their joint inability to solve America’s problems, I blame them both.

LAST NIGHT was the Dems fault. They had one thing to accomplish: Beat the worst candidate ever to run. And they failed miserably.

Let us not forget that the Democratic leaders were so worried about their fascist opponent destroying democracy in America that they ran a feeble old man, propping him up until the open curtains revealed how bad off he was. He is not fit to run another 4 years despite the fact that he “answered all the questions!!!”

That said, I know it is hard to shove out a politician who has been fairly elected by the people. Yet a little old lady, Nancy Pelosi, was able to do it when there seemed to be no other choice.

iris lily

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1796 on: November 06, 2024, 10:06:02 AM »
This outcome is absolutely the Democrats' fault for failing to learn. Their job is to win elections, not be righteous about how they should have won if the voters weren't such idiots.

Let me count the ways:

1) Coastal-big-city Democrats purged the party of Southern and Midwestern Blue Dogs over the past 25 years because they could not stand ideological compromise or party diversity on various issues that are required to win in those states, like gun control, the national debt, or voter IDs for example. Previously competitive states were defunded, dismissed, and given up on, like Ohio, Florida, and Iowa. Money and policy were focused on primary races in coastal cities. The "blue wall" has steadily crumbled this century until by 2024 California and *parts of* New England were all that was left. As a result, Democrats have only won the presidency in the 21st century when a crisis was occurring at the same time as voting was occurring, like a global financial crisis or pandemic. Things have to be going very, very badly for Dems to squeak through the presidency.

2) Defensive excuses about gerrymandering or judge nominations only serve as covers for the fact that Democrats are not competitive in most states, and lack the lower-level team to block anti-democratic changes and nominees. In many states, Republicans walk unchallenged into state legislatures, mayor races, and judge positions. Most of the country is ruled by one party - the Republicans - because they adapted themselves to the electorate while Dems failed to change with the times. The gerrymanders and voter purges are happening because the opposition is not strong enough. A true national party has the ideological flexibility and leadership development pipeline to compete everywhere. Democrats are a regional / coastal party.

3) Democrats are so coastal-city oriented now that they can only nominate lawyers from California, New England, or Chicago like Kerry, Biden, and now Harris. It is simply not possible for the modern party to nominate a Southern governor like Clinton or Carter. You can safely bet it will be another large-city lawyer running against J.D. Vance in 2028. They will lose too, unless there is an absolute crisis going on.

4) Democrats effectively turned down support from business people to chase votes from labor unions, which have steadily shrunk over the years and now represent less than 11% of workers. The gambit didn't pay off, as most union members now vote for Republicans, while Republicans have simultaneously bought the business community's support with tax breaks. Thus Democrats ended up with votes and donations from neither side. Unions served as a mental handle for blue-collar votes because most coastal-lawyer Democrats were unfamiliar with actual blue-collar people, and assumed they would simply vote as a bloc. When people talk elitist paternalism, look at this example.

5) Democrats failed to raise the alarm about conservative control of media, even as traditional journalism died, Fox News became the most popular network, and social media like YouTube and X became mainstreamed as sources of political information. Even as these conservative-biased platforms demoted progressive ideas while promoting conservative conspiracy theories, Democrats continued to pretend their message would be heard simply because they were CORRECT. Democrats even failed to confront conservative claims about "the liberal media" with facts about who owns it and how it is biased. As a result, most people now think "the media" has a liberal bias when in fact the opposite is true. Somehow this issue is STILL not on Democrats' radar, and we can expect it will continue to be hand-waved away. It's sad to watch Democrats grovel for air time on Fox News and X.

6) Another issue not on Democrats' radar is the unfairness of our criminal justice system. Billionaires like Trump with infinite money to spend on lawyers can literally get away with sedition, rape, and fraud, while the poor have to plea bargain for crimes they didn't commit because there is no money for public defenders. You know what Black and Latino voters are concerned about? The fact that they are routinely rounded up and sent to prison without fair trials. How have Dems been so incompetent not to draw a contrast between Trump's endless trials and the relatively sudden plea deals that demolish poorer families over things like smoking weed. Perhaps criticizing the criminal justice system seems like a bad look for a Democratic party dominated by lawyers, but all this idle talk about social justice ideals falls flat if you're not doing something about the main issue. Shockingly, Black and Latino voters did not turn out the vote for a prosecutor. Racists usually just talk shit on the internet, but the criminal justice system destroys their families every day. Which is more dangerous?

7) The whole "it's not our fault voters don't vote for us" attitude is exhibit A for the case that Democrats have become unable to learn from their mistakes or change into a nationally competitive party. It also seems like a strange thing to say if you are concerned about a fascist takeover of the United States. What level of navel gazing insularity does it take to believe these two things at once, instead of immediately looking for pragmatic solutions to an emergency? What level of ideological rigidity does it take to refuse to change in the face of two losses to a candidate as flawed as Trump? I swear if the house was on fire, Democrats would refuse to escape because the house shouldn't be on fire and it's someone else's fault it is on fire.

8) Harris ran the same positivity campaign that failed for Clinton in 2016, while Trump ran the same "everything is awful" campaign that worked for him in 2016. If you're suprised all this cheerleading didn't motivate voters, maybe consider that the last thing people with deep economic dissatisfaction want to hear is that everything is wonderful. "Oh, in that case I suppose it's my fault I can't afford a home, can't go to college without financially crippling myself for life, and have seen my cost of living go up over 20% during the Biden administration. What a charming narrative by the Democrats!" Yes, Harris was technically correct. Unemployment is low, inflation has been fixed, GDP growth is soaring, and Democrat supported bills are contributing mightily to economic growth. But it's utterly tone deaf to throw statistics at a middle class that is in steep decline. Imagine if Harris had (1) loudly and confidently acknowledged things had gotten worse for the middle class and poor, (2) explained the changes as a result of years of Republican policies, and (3) propose fresh solutions that we haven't been hearing for the last two decades. That is how you win elections, not by minimizing people's economic concerns and pretending there isn't a beggar at every intersection in America these days.

At this point I've lost any faith in Democrats' ability to learn or change. They will continue with the same rigid ideological formulas until democracy dies, which may have occurred already. If watching Trump win again - and probably a Republican sweep of Congress - hasn't motivated them to change, I don't know what will.

A shakeup is desperately needed, but there seems to be nobody left over from the purges that could lead such a charge and reshape the party into something new and effective. And every time I talk to a Democrat about these concerns, all I hear are more excuses and the occasional virtue signal. The lack of pragmatism is damning. The denial is so strong.
You forgot to mention the money. Harris had around 3 times as much campaign financing AND YET…this result.

FINate

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1797 on: November 06, 2024, 10:17:20 AM »
All this post-game analysis on how one party was too elitist and out of touch while the other was not. Nope. Money. Prominent billionaires siding with Trump made the difference.

Harris raised more money than Trump.

Finally, I still blame the media. Which is owned by the billionaires who support Trump.

Your kidding, right? Ok, Fox and a few conservative networks, yes. But the media overall is very obviously biased left.

Kris

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1798 on: November 06, 2024, 10:20:45 AM »
All this post-game analysis on how one party was too elitist and out of touch while the other was not. Nope. Money. Prominent billionaires siding with Trump made the difference.

Harris raised more money than Trump.

Finally, I still blame the media. Which is owned by the billionaires who support Trump.

Your kidding, right? Ok, Fox and a few conservative networks, yes. But the media overall is very obviously biased left.


I think you need to recalibrate your sense of the mainstream media.

Here’s a piece from the Guardian that will help.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/sep/06/trump-clinton-harris-election

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1799 on: November 06, 2024, 10:31:44 AM »
What were the voter turnout numbers for 2024 vs 2020 national elections?  They seem much lower for 2024, but I can't seem to find the official numbers.
2020: Biden 81 million, Trump 74 million
2024: Harris 66 million, Trump 71 million

Something seems off about these numbers to me. I was reading of record turnouts and I have difficulty believing 15 million democrats stayed home this year
Roughly 7 million votes in California have not been counted yet.  And other states haven't even been decided yet, with not enough votes counted.  You're looking at an incomplete vote total for 2024.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!