Author Topic: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves  (Read 160074 times)

GuitarStv

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #200 on: July 09, 2024, 01:25:27 PM »
I’d like to keep my reproductive rights for starters, so that alone is a differentiator between the two candidates.  They are not the same.

With the current makeup of the bought and paid for activist Supreme Court the ship has kinda sailed on that, hasn't it?  Your reproductive rights are not going to be coming back until those justices are dead or retired no matter who is elected.


Exactly. Also if Democrats really consider Trump to be a grave danger or worse than Hitler or whatever, not really seeing how Biden would be the best option to prevent this danger. Makes you at least think a little whether this is all just theater.

Guys.  The ship has not sailed.  The judiciary is not the only branch of government.  We have a legislative branch which makes the laws and an executive branch which can sign them into law or veto them.  Things can get a lot worse than they already are depending on who controls the other two branches.

Oh, I completely agree that things will get much worse under a Trump presidency.  I was just pointing out that reproductive rights for women are gone and not coming back for the foreseeable future.

sixwings

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #201 on: July 09, 2024, 01:53:21 PM »
I’d like to keep my reproductive rights for starters, so that alone is a differentiator between the two candidates.  They are not the same.

With the current makeup of the bought and paid for activist Supreme Court the ship has kinda sailed on that, hasn't it?  Your reproductive rights are not going to be coming back until those justices are dead or retired no matter who is elected.


Exactly. Also if Democrats really consider Trump to be a grave danger or worse than Hitler or whatever, not really seeing how Biden would be the best option to prevent this danger. Makes you at least think a little whether this is all just theater.

Guys.  The ship has not sailed.  The judiciary is not the only branch of government.  We have a legislative branch which makes the laws and an executive branch which can sign them into law or veto them.  Things can get a lot worse than they already are depending on who controls the other two branches.

Oh, I completely agree that things will get much worse under a Trump presidency.  I was just pointing out that reproductive rights for women are gone and not coming back for the foreseeable future.

Not necessarily true, Dems could very easily flip the court in the next 1-2 presidential cycle, Thomas is 76, Alito is 74. With a flipped court with favorable rulings we would see favorable rulings and more legislation get passed. But to do that they need to win presidential and senate elections, to do that people need to stop with the doomerism "both sides are the same it's all just a conversation" crap and get out and vote.

PeteD01

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #202 on: July 09, 2024, 01:53:50 PM »
I’d like to keep my reproductive rights for starters, so that alone is a differentiator between the two candidates.  They are not the same.

With the current makeup of the bought and paid for activist Supreme Court the ship has kinda sailed on that, hasn't it?  Your reproductive rights are not going to be coming back until those justices are dead or retired no matter who is elected.

Exactly. Also if Democrats really consider Trump to be a grave danger or worse than Hitler or whatever, not really seeing how Biden would be the best option to prevent this danger. Makes you at least think a little whether this is all just theater.

No. I've lost patience for this kind of garbage. It is not just theater. Elections have very real consequences and a Trump administration is the most extreme consequence.
...

...

Oh, I completely agree that things will get much worse under a Trump presidency.  I was just pointing out that reproductive rights for women are gone and not coming back for the foreseeable future.

Not necessarily true, Dems could very easily flip the court in the next 1-2 presidential cycle, Thomas is 76, Alito is 74. With a flipped court with favorable rulings we would see favorable rulings and more legislation get passed. But to do that they need to win presidential and senate elections, to do that people need to stop with the doomerism "both sides are the same it's all just a conversation" crap and get out and vote.

This is simply MAGA propaganda and is based on the false equivalence fallacy.

The false equivalence fallacy is either unintentional and simply due to weak thinking/stupidity or intentional, that is manipulative, and in this case propaganda in the repetition of falsehoods stage.

Here we are dealing with the shared characteristic of both candidates being old men and the logical error is to conclude that they are similar in all other pertinent aspects as well.

The ongoing projections like supposed Biden family criminality etc. are all doing work to create the impression of similarities between Trump and Biden.

It should be noted that we are dealing with bald-faced lies when the logical error is committed intentionally with the objective of eliciting a response from anyone who takes it at face value.

However, it is super easy to spot when one knows what to look for.

False equivalence

This fallacy is committed when one shared trait between two subjects is assumed to show equivalence, especially in order of magnitude, when equivalence is not necessarily the logical result.[2] False equivalence is a common result when an anecdotal similarity is pointed out as equal, but the claim of equivalence does not bear scrutiny because the similarity is based on oversimplification or ignorance of additional factors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence
« Last Edit: July 09, 2024, 01:57:30 PM by PeteD01 »

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #203 on: July 09, 2024, 01:59:13 PM »
The whole situation with Biden and the Democratic party is providing me a lot of schadenfreude.




But everyone can be happy that in 2028 we'll finally get some new candidates who aren't named Trump or Biden.

GuitarStv

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #204 on: July 09, 2024, 02:09:37 PM »
. . . assuming Trump doesn't win this year and end up more successful leading his next insurrection.

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #205 on: July 09, 2024, 02:17:19 PM »
. . . assuming Trump doesn't win this year and end up more successful leading his next insurrection.

Yes, because his last presidency ended up with him as dictator for life in a fascist state as we all recall. Having an unarmed mob meander through the Capital building taking selfies was super effective in overthrowing the country.


[MOD: banned]
« Last Edit: July 09, 2024, 03:12:28 PM by FrugalToque »

PeteD01

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #206 on: July 09, 2024, 02:23:47 PM »
. . . assuming Trump doesn't win this year and end up more successful leading his next insurrection.

Yes, because his last presidency ended up with him as dictator for life in a fascist state as we all recall. Having an unarmed mob meander through the Capital building taking selfies was super effective in overthrowing the country.

That mob was anything but unarmed and there were many injuries and deaths including LEO´s - and incompetence is no excuse.

doneby35

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #207 on: July 09, 2024, 02:26:54 PM »
. . . assuming Trump doesn't win this year and end up more successful leading his next insurrection.

Yes, because his last presidency ended up with him as dictator for life in a fascist state as we all recall. Having an unarmed mob meander through the Capital building taking selfies was super effective in overthrowing the country.

Uh oh, you are about to be verbally attacked by an army of people on here who believe that only one side of the political aisle is brainwashed.

[MOD: supporting the gaslighting on Jan 6 is not going to go well- warning sent]
« Last Edit: July 09, 2024, 03:13:57 PM by FrugalToque »

PeteD01

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #208 on: July 09, 2024, 02:39:25 PM »
. . . assuming Trump doesn't win this year and end up more successful leading his next insurrection.

Yes, because his last presidency ended up with him as dictator for life in a fascist state as we all recall. Having an unarmed mob meander through the Capital building taking selfies was super effective in overthrowing the country.

Uh oh, you are about to be verbally attacked by an army of people on here who believe that only one side of the political aisle is brainwashed.

That is a classic projection but at least there is a twinge of self-consciousness here.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2024, 04:02:53 PM by PeteD01 »

doneby35

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #209 on: July 09, 2024, 02:46:43 PM »
. . . assuming Trump doesn't win this year and end up more successful leading his next insurrection.

Yes, because his last presidency ended up with him as dictator for life in a fascist state as we all recall. Having an unarmed mob meander through the Capital building taking selfies was super effective in overthrowing the country.

Uh oh, you are about to be verbally attacked by an army of people on here who believe that only one side of the political aisle is brainwashed.

That is a classic projection but at least there is a twinge of self-conciousness here.

Projection of what? I’m not picking sides, you are. You think your team is great and the other team is bad. And more importantly you also lump in everyone who’s not part of a team with the one you think is bad. Most people choosing teams do that, i’m just pointing it out.

PeteD01

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #210 on: July 09, 2024, 03:11:33 PM »
. . . assuming Trump doesn't win this year and end up more successful leading his next insurrection.

Yes, because his last presidency ended up with him as dictator for life in a fascist state as we all recall. Having an unarmed mob meander through the Capital building taking selfies was super effective in overthrowing the country.

Uh oh, you are about to be verbally attacked by an army of people on here who believe that only one side of the political aisle is brainwashed.

That is a classic projection but at least there is a twinge of self-conciousness here.

Projection of what? I’m not picking sides, you are. You think your team is great and the other team is bad. And more importantly you also lump in everyone who’s not part of a team with the one you think is bad. Most people choosing teams do that, i’m just pointing it out.

Appearing impartial, having the "objective perspective", is crucial to make the false equivalence deception work (in this case: both sides are brainwashed).

That is actually one of the things to look for when ferreting out false equivalence and you jumped right onto it.


ChpBstrd

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #211 on: July 09, 2024, 03:25:40 PM »
I fear the conservatives or Russians "salted" the media to help this blow up about Biden's age and Harris (DEI) to divide voters and help assure Trump's win.

No facts to back it up. I'm voting for the Dems still come Nov 6. I don't fear Biden's leadership b/c I believe he has a good team behind him. If someone else is shifted onto the Dem ticket I'll vote for them too.

The same media that has effectively been a wing of the Democratic party for years? Conservatives have been calling out Biden's age and declining mental state for years. The only difference now is that the media finally realized they couldn't keep telling people "Don't believe your lying eyes" after watching him on stage for 90 minutes with no teleprompter and no aides coming to shuffle him off the stage when unscripted questions are asked (since the media has been complicit in asking pre-arranged questions during many interviews and press conferences).
Are you referring to America's most popular news network (Fox News), many of the most influential news papers (WSJ, NY Post...), the tabloids (National Enquirer...), alternative news (OAN, Zerohedge, Breibart, Gateway Pundit, Infowars...), social media with a tilt (X, 4-chan, 8-chan, telegram, truth social...), the publicly traded old school networks owned by wall street types (ABC, CBS, NBC), or is this all about the sagging-ratings organizational-shitshow CNN that refused to fact-check Trump and filled the "town hall" with cheering Trump supporters? Cons own the media.

doneby35

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #212 on: July 09, 2024, 08:05:06 PM »
. . . assuming Trump doesn't win this year and end up more successful leading his next insurrection.

Yes, because his last presidency ended up with him as dictator for life in a fascist state as we all recall. Having an unarmed mob meander through the Capital building taking selfies was super effective in overthrowing the country.

Uh oh, you are about to be verbally attacked by an army of people on here who believe that only one side of the political aisle is brainwashed.

That is a classic projection but at least there is a twinge of self-conciousness here.

Projection of what? I’m not picking sides, you are. You think your team is great and the other team is bad. And more importantly you also lump in everyone who’s not part of a team with the one you think is bad. Most people choosing teams do that, i’m just pointing it out.

Appearing impartial, having the "objective perspective", is crucial to make the false equivalence deception work (in this case: both sides are brainwashed).

That is actually one of the things to look for when ferreting out false equivalence and you jumped right onto it.

And here we are, people saying that having an impartial or an objective perspective is really part of a grand plan to deceive others. Does anyone not see the problem when everyone is choosing a team and uttering nonsense such as this?
And moderators banning or warning people strictly because of their own biases and intolerance of other views, telling me they have no problem wielding the banhammer. Nothing that was said here is worthy of anyone receiving any warnings, let alone a ban. Congratulations, you earn the badge of accomplished authoritarian. Now go ahead use that banhammer of yours and prove me right.

iris lily

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #213 on: July 09, 2024, 08:26:58 PM »
. . . assuming Trump doesn't win this year and end up more successful leading his next insurrection.

Yes, because his last presidency ended up with him as dictator for life in a fascist state as we all recall. Having an unarmed mob meander through the Capital building taking selfies was super effective in overthrowing the country.


[MOD: banned]

What? Michael in ABQ is banned? Whatever for?

MDM

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #214 on: July 09, 2024, 08:57:43 PM »
What? Michael in ABQ is banned? Whatever for?
Lacking another explanation, someone disagrees with GuitarStv's well written If you really care about building a diverse team...[embrace]...the different social groups and organizations someone belongs to.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #215 on: July 09, 2024, 09:41:58 PM »
. . . assuming Trump doesn't win this year and end up more successful leading his next insurrection.

Yes, because his last presidency ended up with him as dictator for life in a fascist state as we all recall. Having an unarmed mob meander through the Capital building taking selfies was super effective in overthrowing the country.


[MOD: banned]

This has to be a mistake. Michael in ABQ is an extremely valued and level headed member of this forum. He doesn't just comment on politics. In fact, his comments on many financial posts, questions about his geographic location, etc. have been super helpful. His political leanings are conservative, but he's cordial about it and never that I've seen been personally insulting to anyone. I looked back at his posts, and I didn't see any warnings in the last five to ten pages of posts I looked at. Surely this is a mistake.

doneby35

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #216 on: July 09, 2024, 09:46:55 PM »
. . . assuming Trump doesn't win this year and end up more successful leading his next insurrection.

Yes, because his last presidency ended up with him as dictator for life in a fascist state as we all recall. Having an unarmed mob meander through the Capital building taking selfies was super effective in overthrowing the country.


[MOD: banned]

This has to be a mistake. Michael in ABQ is an extremely valued and level headed member of this forum. He doesn't just comment on politics. In fact, his comments on many financial posts, questions about his geographic location, etc. have been super helpful. His political leanings are conservative, but he's cordial about it and never that I've seen been personally insulting to anyone. I looked back at his posts, and I didn't see any warnings in the last five to ten pages of posts I looked at. Surely this is a mistake.

Not a mistake. The moderator, whoever they are, indicated to me that they do not tolerate these views and some nonsense about gaslighting, and warned me that they would easily ban me as well.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #217 on: July 09, 2024, 10:02:23 PM »
. . . assuming Trump doesn't win this year and end up more successful leading his next insurrection.

Yes, because his last presidency ended up with him as dictator for life in a fascist state as we all recall. Having an unarmed mob meander through the Capital building taking selfies was super effective in overthrowing the country.


[MOD: banned]

This has to be a mistake. Michael in ABQ is an extremely valued and level headed member of this forum. He doesn't just comment on politics. In fact, his comments on many financial posts, questions about his geographic location, etc. have been super helpful. His political leanings are conservative, but he's cordial about it and never that I've seen been personally insulting to anyone. I looked back at his posts, and I didn't see any warnings in the last five to ten pages of posts I looked at. Surely this is a mistake.

Not a mistake. The moderator, whoever they are, indicated to me that they do not tolerate these views and some nonsense about gaslighting, and warned me that they would easily ban me as well.

Extremely sad. I've never seen a ban that quick where the poster has such a long and solid posting history, there was no history of warnings, and there was nothing insane like them saying a racial slur or something like that.

doneby35

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #218 on: July 09, 2024, 10:12:53 PM »
. . . assuming Trump doesn't win this year and end up more successful leading his next insurrection.

Yes, because his last presidency ended up with him as dictator for life in a fascist state as we all recall. Having an unarmed mob meander through the Capital building taking selfies was super effective in overthrowing the country.


[MOD: banned]

This has to be a mistake. Michael in ABQ is an extremely valued and level headed member of this forum. He doesn't just comment on politics. In fact, his comments on many financial posts, questions about his geographic location, etc. have been super helpful. His political leanings are conservative, but he's cordial about it and never that I've seen been personally insulting to anyone. I looked back at his posts, and I didn't see any warnings in the last five to ten pages of posts I looked at. Surely this is a mistake.

Not a mistake. The moderator, whoever they are, indicated to me that they do not tolerate these views and some nonsense about gaslighting, and warned me that they would easily ban me as well.

Extremely sad. I've never seen a ban that quick where the poster has such a long and solid posting history, there was no history of warnings, and there was nothing insane like them saying a racial slur or something like that.

I know and I won’t stand for it. What this moderator needs to do is reverse the ban and apologize instead of embarrassing themselves in an attempt to silence opposing views. We all contribute to this forum, we all come from different places, we all have a diverse set of views and most of us express them without personally attacking anyone.

bacchi

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #219 on: July 09, 2024, 10:18:02 PM »
. . . assuming Trump doesn't win this year and end up more successful leading his next insurrection.

Yes, because his last presidency ended up with him as dictator for life in a fascist state as we all recall. Having an unarmed mob meander through the Capital building taking selfies was super effective in overthrowing the country.


[MOD: banned]

This has to be a mistake. Michael in ABQ is an extremely valued and level headed member of this forum. He doesn't just comment on politics. In fact, his comments on many financial posts, questions about his geographic location, etc. have been super helpful. His political leanings are conservative, but he's cordial about it and never that I've seen been personally insulting to anyone. I looked back at his posts, and I didn't see any warnings in the last five to ten pages of posts I looked at. Surely this is a mistake.

Not a mistake. The moderator, whoever they are, indicated to me that they do not tolerate these views and some nonsense about gaslighting, and warned me that they would easily ban me as well.

Extremely sad. I've never seen a ban that quick where the poster has such a long and solid posting history, there was no history of warnings, and there was nothing insane like them saying a racial slur or something like that.

I know and I won’t stand for it. What this moderator needs to do is reverse the ban and apologize instead of embarrassing themselves in an attempt to silence opposing views. We all contribute to this forum, we all come from different places, we all have a diverse set of views and most of us express them without personally attacking anyone.

The gaslighting is obviously a reference to Jan 6 and the assertion that it wasn't an illegal and violent attempt to disrupt the transfer of power. It dangerously ignores the noose and gallows, the chanting ("Hang Mike Pence."), the shouting ("All we want is Pelosi." outside of her office), the breaking of the windows and doors, and the Senators and Representatives desperately trying to find safety.

It's utter bullshit to claim otherwise.

Maybe there should've been a warning first but anyone claiming it was "an unarmed mob meander[ing] through the Capital building taking selfies" is either ignorant or being deliberately manipulative. As we know that Michael in ABQ isn't ignorant...

doneby35

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #220 on: July 09, 2024, 10:30:17 PM »
. . . assuming Trump doesn't win this year and end up more successful leading his next insurrection.

Yes, because his last presidency ended up with him as dictator for life in a fascist state as we all recall. Having an unarmed mob meander through the Capital building taking selfies was super effective in overthrowing the country.


[MOD: banned]

This has to be a mistake. Michael in ABQ is an extremely valued and level headed member of this forum. He doesn't just comment on politics. In fact, his comments on many financial posts, questions about his geographic location, etc. have been super helpful. His political leanings are conservative, but he's cordial about it and never that I've seen been personally insulting to anyone. I looked back at his posts, and I didn't see any warnings in the last five to ten pages of posts I looked at. Surely this is a mistake.

Not a mistake. The moderator, whoever they are, indicated to me that they do not tolerate these views and some nonsense about gaslighting, and warned me that they would easily ban me as well.

Extremely sad. I've never seen a ban that quick where the poster has such a long and solid posting history, there was no history of warnings, and there was nothing insane like them saying a racial slur or something like that.

I know and I won’t stand for it. What this moderator needs to do is reverse the ban and apologize instead of embarrassing themselves in an attempt to silence opposing views. We all contribute to this forum, we all come from different places, we all have a diverse set of views and most of us express them without personally attacking anyone.

The gaslighting is obviously a reference to Jan 6 and the assertion that it wasn't an illegal and violent attempt to disrupt the transfer of power. It dangerously ignores the noose and gallows, the chanting ("Hang Mike Pence."), the shouting ("All we want is Pelosi." outside of her office), the breaking of the windows and doors, and the Senators and Representatives desperately trying to find safety.

It's utter bullshit to claim otherwise.

Maybe there should've been a warning first but anyone claiming it was "an unarmed mob meander[ing] through the Capital building taking selfies" is either ignorant or being deliberately manipulative. As we know that Michael in ABQ isn't ignorant...

Whether it is ignorant or gaslighting is not the point. You don’t warn or ban people because they have a different view. Are people not allowed to be ignorant or having an opposing view to yours? If so, you might want to just purge all accounts with opposing views and re-brand the forums as an echo chamber to discuss views that everyone agrees upon.

MDM

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #221 on: July 09, 2024, 10:49:15 PM »
The gaslighting is obviously a reference to Jan 6 and the assertion that it wasn't an illegal and violent attempt to disrupt the transfer of power. It dangerously ignores the noose and gallows, the chanting ("Hang Mike Pence."), the shouting ("All we want is Pelosi." outside of her office), the breaking of the windows and doors, and the Senators and Representatives desperately trying to find safety.

It's utter bullshit to claim otherwise.

Maybe there should've been a warning first but anyone claiming it was "an unarmed mob meander[ing] through the Capital building taking selfies" is either ignorant or being deliberately manipulative. As we know that Michael in ABQ isn't ignorant...
Yes indeed, ...the Justice Department’s sprawling investigation of Jan. 6 has revealed that several people at the Capitol were carrying firearms that day.  Yes, no fewer than several.  Might even have been more than those equipped with buffalo horns. /s

In all seriousness, that anyone Died as a Result of [the] Capitol Riot is a tragedy, the same as any deaths in any other riots.  Gun charges against those who illegally brought guns seem appropriate.  But there was in fact also "...an unarmed mob meander[ing] through the Capital building taking selfies" (plenty of video evidence for that) so painting everything with the same brush is inappropriate.  Ignoring either the violence or the non-violence is not conducive to productive discussion.

bacchi

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #222 on: July 09, 2024, 10:54:01 PM »
. . . assuming Trump doesn't win this year and end up more successful leading his next insurrection.

Yes, because his last presidency ended up with him as dictator for life in a fascist state as we all recall. Having an unarmed mob meander through the Capital building taking selfies was super effective in overthrowing the country.


[MOD: banned]

This has to be a mistake. Michael in ABQ is an extremely valued and level headed member of this forum. He doesn't just comment on politics. In fact, his comments on many financial posts, questions about his geographic location, etc. have been super helpful. His political leanings are conservative, but he's cordial about it and never that I've seen been personally insulting to anyone. I looked back at his posts, and I didn't see any warnings in the last five to ten pages of posts I looked at. Surely this is a mistake.

Not a mistake. The moderator, whoever they are, indicated to me that they do not tolerate these views and some nonsense about gaslighting, and warned me that they would easily ban me as well.

Extremely sad. I've never seen a ban that quick where the poster has such a long and solid posting history, there was no history of warnings, and there was nothing insane like them saying a racial slur or something like that.

I know and I won’t stand for it. What this moderator needs to do is reverse the ban and apologize instead of embarrassing themselves in an attempt to silence opposing views. We all contribute to this forum, we all come from different places, we all have a diverse set of views and most of us express them without personally attacking anyone.

The gaslighting is obviously a reference to Jan 6 and the assertion that it wasn't an illegal and violent attempt to disrupt the transfer of power. It dangerously ignores the noose and gallows, the chanting ("Hang Mike Pence."), the shouting ("All we want is Pelosi." outside of her office), the breaking of the windows and doors, and the Senators and Representatives desperately trying to find safety.

It's utter bullshit to claim otherwise.

Maybe there should've been a warning first but anyone claiming it was "an unarmed mob meander[ing] through the Capital building taking selfies" is either ignorant or being deliberately manipulative. As we know that Michael in ABQ isn't ignorant...

Whether it is ignorant or gaslighting is not the point. You don’t warn or ban people because they have a different view. Are people not allowed to be ignorant or having an opposing view to yours? If so, you might want to just purge all accounts with opposing views and re-brand the forums as an echo chamber to discuss views that everyone agrees upon.

I assume it's because some things -- like claiming an insurrection isn't an insurrection -- are too important to leave to opinions or opposing views. If his ragtag group of Proud Boys and malcontents were successful, we'd be worried about greater things than 2 elderly, scatter brained, men "debating" each other.

I'm just spit balling. Unless a mod shows up and explains, maybe someone in upper management in the "forum-information-faqs" section will give the real reason.

bacchi

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #223 on: July 09, 2024, 11:11:05 PM »
The gaslighting is obviously a reference to Jan 6 and the assertion that it wasn't an illegal and violent attempt to disrupt the transfer of power. It dangerously ignores the noose and gallows, the chanting ("Hang Mike Pence."), the shouting ("All we want is Pelosi." outside of her office), the breaking of the windows and doors, and the Senators and Representatives desperately trying to find safety.

It's utter bullshit to claim otherwise.

Maybe there should've been a warning first but anyone claiming it was "an unarmed mob meander[ing] through the Capital building taking selfies" is either ignorant or being deliberately manipulative. As we know that Michael in ABQ isn't ignorant...
Yes indeed, ...the Justice Department’s sprawling investigation of Jan. 6 has revealed that several people at the Capitol were carrying firearms that day.  Yes, no fewer than several.  Might even have been more than those equipped with buffalo horns. /s

You should check out the video of someone from the "unarmed mob" hitting a cop with a flag pole several times.

Many things can be weapons, from guns to lumber to fire extinguishers.

Quote
In all seriousness, that anyone Died as a Result of [the] Capitol Riot is a tragedy, the same as any deaths in any other riots.  Gun charges against those who illegally brought guns seem appropriate.  But there was in fact also "...an unarmed mob meander[ing] through the Capital building taking selfies" (plenty of video evidence for that) so painting everything with the same brush is inappropriate.  Ignoring either the violence or the non-violence is not conducive to productive discussion.

Correct. And perhaps that's why Michael in ABQ was banned.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2024, 11:16:59 PM by bacchi »

MoseyingAlong

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #224 on: July 09, 2024, 11:26:36 PM »
This seems an unwarranted ban. Hope it will be reconsidered and reversed.

MDM

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #225 on: July 09, 2024, 11:38:56 PM »
You should check out the video of someone from the "unarmed mob" hitting a cop with a flag pole several times.
Sure, "someone".  Some people did bad things, some just meandered through the Capitol.

Quote
Quote
In all seriousness, that anyone Died as a Result of [the] Capitol Riot is a tragedy, the same as any deaths in any other riots.  Gun charges against those who illegally brought guns seem appropriate.  But there was in fact also "...an unarmed mob meander[ing] through the Capital building taking selfies" (plenty of video evidence for that) so painting everything with the same brush is inappropriate.  Ignoring either the violence or the non-violence is not conducive to productive discussion.

Correct. And perhaps that's why Michael in ABQ was banned.
Are you really saying that anyone who offered only one perspective in this thread should be banned? ;)

bacchi

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #226 on: July 09, 2024, 11:54:48 PM »
You should check out the video of someone from the "unarmed mob" hitting a cop with a flag pole several times.
Sure, "someone".  Some people did bad things, some just meandered through the Capitol.

Past a police line, past scattered barricades, past broken windows and doors, watching people scale walls, watching the cops flee, listening to the chants. Sure, maybe some misread the date on their tour ticket.

Quote
Quote
Quote
In all seriousness, that anyone Died as a Result of [the] Capitol Riot is a tragedy, the same as any deaths in any other riots.  Gun charges against those who illegally brought guns seem appropriate.  But there was in fact also "...an unarmed mob meander[ing] through the Capital building taking selfies" (plenty of video evidence for that) so painting everything with the same brush is inappropriate.  Ignoring either the violence or the non-violence is not conducive to productive discussion.

Correct. And perhaps that's why Michael in ABQ was banned.
Are you really saying that anyone who offered only one perspective in this thread should be banned? ;)

If that's where the line is drawn, that's where the line is drawn. It's not up to me.

Also, again, I have no insight into the mod's thinking. I'm just making shit up.

MDM

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #227 on: July 10, 2024, 12:00:14 AM »
Also, again, I have no insight into the mod's thinking. I'm just making shit up.
OK, fair enough.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Well I hope the Mods are proud of themselves
« Reply #228 on: July 10, 2024, 03:09:36 AM »
"Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States"
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2383

Nobody has been charged with that crime, insurrection, for the events of Jan 6th.  Further, the Supreme Court of the United States has decided obstruction charges should be thrown out when document destruction wasn't involved:

"Federal prosecutors overreached when using an obstruction law to charge hundreds of January 6 rioters, the Supreme Court has ruled in an opinion that could also affect a case against Donald Trump."
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c199l00gmmvo

rosarugosa

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #229 on: July 10, 2024, 04:56:54 AM »
. . . assuming Trump doesn't win this year and end up more successful leading his next insurrection.

Yes, because his last presidency ended up with him as dictator for life in a fascist state as we all recall. Having an unarmed mob meander through the Capital building taking selfies was super effective in overthrowing the country.


[MOD: banned]


Wow, some over the top, heavy-handed censorship here.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #230 on: July 10, 2024, 05:06:59 AM »
The January 6 events chilled me to my core in a "I remember where I was and how it felt" similar to September 11. I'm certainly not trying to minimize it.

That being said, to me, Michael is a top 20 poster I recognize on here and find respectable and a great contributor of solid information with a balanced opinion on things. As people above have commented with more nuance above, his opinion on the issue has at least some merit despite, imo, being overall incorrect. To immediately slap a ban on him for something that falls in that category for someone with his history, quite frankly, shocked me. I have never one complained about the moderation here, but this was out of line.

I will miss his voice on this forum. I will miss having one of the most reasonable conservatives in this quite liberal place. I will miss him. I am very sad.

nereo

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #231 on: July 10, 2024, 05:07:55 AM »
. . . assuming Trump doesn't win this year and end up more successful leading his next insurrection.

Yes, because his last presidency ended up with him as dictator for life in a fascist state as we all recall. Having an unarmed mob meander through the Capital building taking selfies was super effective in overthrowing the country.


[MOD: banned]


Wow, some over the top, heavy-handed censorship here.

This wasn’t an isolated, first time incident

YttriumNitrate

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #232 on: July 10, 2024, 05:17:27 AM »
Based on the DOJ's public records, of the 1,457 people who have been charged [1] with breaching the Capitol, five were charged having a firearm [2] and 79 were charged with having any kind of dangerous or deadly weapon [3]. So, there was not sufficient evidence to charge (let alone convict) 94.6% or 99.6% of the people with being armed (depending on how you defined armed).

Now, let's see if FrugalTorque bans me for posting this.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #233 on: July 10, 2024, 05:19:31 AM »
. . . assuming Trump doesn't win this year and end up more successful leading his next insurrection.

Yes, because his last presidency ended up with him as dictator for life in a fascist state as we all recall. Having an unarmed mob meander through the Capital building taking selfies was super effective in overthrowing the country.


[MOD: banned]


Wow, some over the top, heavy-handed censorship here.

This wasn’t an isolated, first time incident

It may not have been a first time incident from your perspective, but I don't recall him ever being warned and looked back 15 pages (2 years) in his past posts to see if I missed something, and I didn't see any mod notes on that period. This is certainly not some habitual pattern.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #234 on: July 10, 2024, 05:23:21 AM »
Based on the DOJ's public records, of the 1,457 people who have been charged [1] with breaching the Capitol, five were charged having a firearm [2] and 79 were charged with having any kind of dangerous or deadly weapon [3]. So, there was not sufficient evidence to charge (let alone convict) 94.6% or 99.6% of the people with being armed (depending on how you defined armed).

Now, let's see if FrugalTorque bans me for posting this.

Exactly. When you delve into the details, the general statement Michael made wasn't insane by any stretch. The fact that it alone resulted in an immediate ban makes the forum feel very inhospitable.

Dancin'Dog

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #235 on: July 10, 2024, 06:07:53 AM »
I don't appreciate reading anyone downplaying the events of Jan 6. 




MDM

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #236 on: July 10, 2024, 06:11:04 AM »
I don't appreciate reading anyone downplaying the events of Jan 6.
Others don't appreciate reading anyone overplaying the events of Jan 6.

Isn't diversity wonderful?

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #237 on: July 10, 2024, 06:19:53 AM »
I don't appreciate reading anyone downplaying the events of Jan 6.

That's a reasonable perspective. I disagree with people on tons of things. It doesn't mean a poster should be immediately banned.

uniwelder

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #238 on: July 10, 2024, 06:20:22 AM »
Based on the DOJ's public records, of the 1,457 people who have been charged [1] with breaching the Capitol, five were charged having a firearm [2] and 79 were charged with having any kind of dangerous or deadly weapon [3]. So, there was not sufficient evidence to charge (let alone convict) 94.6% or 99.6% of the people with being armed (depending on how you defined armed).

Now, let's see if FrugalTorque bans me for posting this.

And from the same record search, 140 charged with assault.   1 out of 10 ain't bad, right?  /s

I don't appreciate reading anyone downplaying the events of Jan 6.
Others don't appreciate reading anyone overplaying the events of Jan 6.

Isn't diversity wonderful?

I rarely comment on the political posts here, but the gaslighting and minimizing of Jan 6th just boggles my mind.  Overplaying?  You can't be serious.  Third world level coup d'etat happening at the capital of the United States.  You should be ashamed for normalizing extremists.

LD_TAndK

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #239 on: July 10, 2024, 06:29:27 AM »
I disagree with Michael in ABQ but don't think his opinions merit a ban. This place doesn't need to be turned into any more of an echo chamber

Fireball

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #240 on: July 10, 2024, 06:35:38 AM »
Based on the DOJ's public records, of the 1,457 people who have been charged [1] with breaching the Capitol, five were charged having a firearm [2] and 79 were charged with having any kind of dangerous or deadly weapon [3]. So, there was not sufficient evidence to charge (let alone convict) 94.6% or 99.6% of the people with being armed (depending on how you defined armed).

Now, let's see if FrugalTorque bans me for posting this.

And from the same record search, 140 charged with assault.   1 out of 10 ain't bad, right?  /s

I don't appreciate reading anyone downplaying the events of Jan 6.
Others don't appreciate reading anyone overplaying the events of Jan 6.

Isn't diversity wonderful?

I rarely comment on the political posts here, but the gaslighting and minimizing of Jan 6th just boggles my mind.  Overplaying?  You can't be serious.  Third world level coup d'etat happening at the capital of the United States.  You should be ashamed for normalizing extremists.

I rarely comment either. The effectiveness of the "patriots" who participated in Jan 6 doesn't really matter at this point. Their intent absolutely does. To minimize the goal of their actions is sad and dangerous behavior. Diverse political beliefs should be welcomed here, but all beliefs should not.

PeteD01

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #241 on: July 10, 2024, 06:38:51 AM »
Well, there is another way to look at it - just guessing of course.

There is an ongoing MAGA/Russian disinformation campaign which is at the stage of repeating certain lies over and over again using all channels that can be co-opted.

Some of the lies are that the 2020 elections were stolen, that there was not deadly riot at the Capitol on 01/06, that the rioters are hostages of the deep state, that Trump has nothing to do with Project 2025, etc.

From the perspective of a private owner, complicity in such psyops/propaganda operations by not suppressing the activity could be unacceptable.

I for one would do anything I can to prevent my own website involuntarily becoming a part of the MAGA/Russian propaganda machine thus becoming part of the problem; and I would certainly not respond to pressure - to the contrary.

Just some bigger context to consider, and, quite frankly, it is not that difficult to refrain from spreading propaganda and still have meaningful discourse which propaganda is just disrupting anyways.


CONSUMER BEHAVIOR
Illusory Truth, Lies, and Political Propaganda

Repeat a lie often enough and people will come to believe it.
Updated March 21, 2024 |  Reviewed by Abigail Fagan

The Illusory Truth Effect

Many of us are familiar with the quotation, “Repeat a lie often enough and people will eventually come to believe it.”

Not ironically, the adage — often attributed to the infamous Nazi Joseph Goebbels — is true and has been validated by decades of research on what psychology calls the “illusory truth effect.” First described in a 1977 study by Temple University psychologist Dr. Lynn Hasher and her colleagues, the illusory truth effect occurs when repeating a statement increases the belief that it’s true even when the statement is actually false.

Subsequent research has expanded what we know about the illusory truth effect. For example, the effect doesn’t only occur through repetition but can happen through any process that increases familiarity with a statement or the ease by which it’s processed by the brain (what psychologists in this context refer to as a statement’s “fluency”). For example, the perceived truth of written statements can be increased by presenting them in bold, high-contrast fonts2 or when aphorisms are expressed as a rhyme.

According to a 2010 meta-analytic review of the truth effect (which applies to both true and false statements),4 while the perceived credibility of a statement’s source increases perceptions of truth as we might expect, the truth effect persists even when sources are thought to be unreliable and especially when the source of the statement is unclear. In other words, while we typically evaluate a statement’s truth based on the trustworthiness of the source, repeated exposure to both information and misinformation increases the sense that it’s true, regardless of the source’s credibility.


https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/psych-unseen/202001/illusory-truth-lies-and-political-propaganda


Illusory Truth, Lies, and Political Propaganda: Part 2
From Russia’s “firehose of falsehood” to Trump’s “alternative facts.”
Posted January 23, 2020

Still, recent research provides us with some pointers on how we might stem the noxious impact of disinformation. In one recent experiment, encouraging young people to act like “fact checkers” mitigated the illusory truth effect.14 Similar studies have shown that “inoculation strategies” warning people about likely exposure to misinformation and beating misinformation to the punch, can reduce susceptibility to being taken in by disinformation.15 Based on such findings, RAND researchers suggest that forewarning people about how propagandists exploit the illusory truth effect to manipulate audiences is likely to be more effective than specific refutations.9 And so…

The illusory truth effect is real.

It is commonly exploited as a tool of political propaganda.

Consider yourself warned.


https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/psych-unseen/202001/illusory-truth-lies-and-political-propaganda-part-2
« Last Edit: July 10, 2024, 06:49:24 AM by PeteD01 »

Phenix

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #242 on: July 10, 2024, 06:43:39 AM »
Based on the DOJ's public records, of the 1,457 people who have been charged [1] with breaching the Capitol, five were charged having a firearm [2] and 79 were charged with having any kind of dangerous or deadly weapon [3]. So, there was not sufficient evidence to charge (let alone convict) 94.6% or 99.6% of the people with being armed (depending on how you defined armed).

Now, let's see if FrugalTorque bans me for posting this.

And from the same record search, 140 charged with assault.   1 out of 10 ain't bad, right?  /s

I don't appreciate reading anyone downplaying the events of Jan 6.
Others don't appreciate reading anyone overplaying the events of Jan 6.

Isn't diversity wonderful?

I rarely comment on the political posts here, but the gaslighting and minimizing of Jan 6th just boggles my mind.  Overplaying?  You can't be serious.  Third world level coup d'etat happening at the capital of the United States.  You should be ashamed for normalizing extremists.

You can't be serious. We've got much bigger problems if a minimally armed group of crazy people in the capital building is all it takes to overthrow our government. There was intel that the events of January 6th were foreseeable and the National Guard should have been brought in to assist. This was preventable. I also don't recall any Republican elected officials goading people on and telling them they would pay their bail if arrested.

January 6th was a learning opportunity for all, but calling that unorganized mess a coup d'etat is giving those morons way too much credit.

Omy

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #243 on: July 10, 2024, 06:55:16 AM »
"I also don't recall any Republican elected officials goading people on and telling them they would pay their bail if arrested."

Other than the former president???

Phenix

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #244 on: July 10, 2024, 06:58:47 AM »
"I also don't recall any Republican elected officials goading people on and telling them they would pay their bail if arrested."

Other than the former president???

Show your work, please.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #245 on: July 10, 2024, 07:04:31 AM »
Based on the DOJ's public records, of the 1,457 people who have been charged [1] with breaching the Capitol, five were charged having a firearm [2] and 79 were charged with having any kind of dangerous or deadly weapon [3]. So, there was not sufficient evidence to charge (let alone convict) 94.6% or 99.6% of the people with being armed (depending on how you defined armed).

Now, let's see if FrugalTorque bans me for posting this.

And from the same record search, 140 charged with assault.   1 out of 10 ain't bad, right?  /s

I don't appreciate reading anyone downplaying the events of Jan 6.
Others don't appreciate reading anyone overplaying the events of Jan 6.

Isn't diversity wonderful?

I rarely comment on the political posts here, but the gaslighting and minimizing of Jan 6th just boggles my mind.  Overplaying?  You can't be serious.  Third world level coup d'etat happening at the capital of the United States.  You should be ashamed for normalizing extremists.

I rarely comment either. The effectiveness of the "patriots" who participated in Jan 6 doesn't really matter at this point. Their intent absolutely does. To minimize the goal of their actions is sad and dangerous behavior. Diverse political beliefs should be welcomed here, but all beliefs should not.

The original comment was three fold. That the people were unarmed, which Yttrium have evidence that this was mostly true. The fact that it was unsuccessful in overthrowing things, which was, of course, factually true. Then there was the tone which commented on them meandering around. That was certainly minimizing things, and I did not agree with that.

That being said, the comment was in reference to people (myself included) who comment on Trump as a crisis to America's existence as a whole. The comment was essentially saying that even the January 6 stuff, which comes up, was not successful, so using it as an example of how the country is going to end with Trump is not necessarily accurate. I disagree with this, but it's not a ridiculous perspective. It's dialogue.

MDM

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #246 on: July 10, 2024, 07:12:59 AM »
I don't appreciate reading anyone downplaying the events of Jan 6.
Others don't appreciate reading anyone overplaying the events of Jan 6.

Isn't diversity wonderful?

I rarely comment on the political posts here, but the gaslighting and minimizing of Jan 6th just boggles my mind.  Overplaying?  You can't be serious.  Third world level coup d'etat happening at the capital of the United States.  You should be ashamed for normalizing extremists.
Very serious and not at all ashamed.  Speaking of third world, the lawfare directed at Trump fits.  At least, that's my opinion, with which some will agree and some will disagree. 

A real coup d'etat would have involved many more people, many more guns and other weapons (tanks, etc.), and definitely not led by a guy wearing buffalo horns.  TWO VIEWS: Jan. 6 was a protest and riot -- not an insurrection has more details.

Fireball

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #247 on: July 10, 2024, 07:26:41 AM »
I don't appreciate reading anyone downplaying the events of Jan 6.
Others don't appreciate reading anyone overplaying the events of Jan 6.

Isn't diversity wonderful?

I rarely comment on the political posts here, but the gaslighting and minimizing of Jan 6th just boggles my mind.  Overplaying?  You can't be serious.  Third world level coup d'etat happening at the capital of the United States.  You should be ashamed for normalizing extremists.
Very serious and not at all ashamed.  Speaking of third world, the lawfare directed at Trump fits.  At least, that's my opinion, with which some will agree and some will disagree. 

A real coup d'etat would have involved many more people, many more guns and other weapons (tanks, etc.), and definitely not led by a guy wearing buffalo horns.  TWO VIEWS: Jan. 6 was a protest and riot -- not an insurrection has more details.

There are different flavors of coups. They're not necessarily something I've studied for years, but these guys have. It's interesting reading. With that said, there was a lot of moving parts to Jan 6th. Maybe less than a coup, but far more than a protest.

https://clinecenter.illinois.edu/coup-detat-project/statement_dec.15.2022
« Last Edit: July 10, 2024, 07:31:54 AM by Fireball »

PeteD01

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #248 on: July 10, 2024, 07:29:51 AM »
. . . assuming Trump doesn't win this year and end up more successful leading his next insurrection.

Yes, because his last presidency ended up with him as dictator for life in a fascist state as we all recall. Having an unarmed mob meander through the Capital building taking selfies was super effective in overthrowing the country.

Uh oh, you are about to be verbally attacked by an army of people on here who believe that only one side of the political aisle is brainwashed.

That is a classic projection but at least there is a twinge of self-conciousness here.

Projection of what? I’m not picking sides, you are. You think your team is great and the other team is bad. And more importantly you also lump in everyone who’s not part of a team with the one you think is bad. Most people choosing teams do that, i’m just pointing it out.

Appearing impartial, having the "objective perspective", is crucial to make the false equivalence deception work (in this case: both sides are brainwashed).

That is actually one of the things to look for when ferreting out false equivalence and you jumped right onto it.

And here we are, people saying that having an impartial or an objective perspective is really part of a grand plan to deceive others. Does anyone not see the problem when everyone is choosing a team and uttering nonsense such as this?
And moderators banning or warning people strictly because of their own biases and intolerance of other views, telling me they have no problem wielding the banhammer. Nothing that was said here is worthy of anyone receiving any warnings, let alone a ban. Congratulations, you earn the badge of accomplished authoritarian. Now go ahead use that banhammer of yours and prove me right.

There is a misunderstanding here.

I wrote that there might be an appearance of impartiality and I put "objective perspective" in quotation marks.

The issue is that the supposedly objective perspective, God´s view, Platonic view, or however you want to call it, is not actually a thing.

Typically, the dominant perspective in a society tends to assume a normative role in the minds of those sharing the characteristics of those seeing themselves as part of the culturally/socially dominant group.

The dominant perspective that has taken on a normative character can easily perceived as the "objective" perspective thus devaluing non dominant perspectives.

This happens automatically and is unfortunately not exclusive to the dominant social group but is often assimilated by minority groups if not actively resisted.

So, when someone claims that they are speaking from an "objective" perspective, odds are that they are actually speaking from the dominant perspective.

In the particular case of the false equivalence fallacy, there has to be at least the pretense of equi-distance from the positions that are supposedly equivalent and that implies the "objective" perspective - and that is why the equivalence supposedly demonstrated is actually a foregone conclusion.
In other words, it is the choice of perspective that makes positions appear equivalent and the perspective used is typically advertised as the "objective perspective", which is absurd:

Perspectivism

In his works, Nietzsche makes a number of statements on perspective which at times contrast each other throughout the development of his philosophy. Nietzsche's perspectivism begins by challenging the underlying notions of 'viewing from nowhere', 'viewing from everywhere', and 'viewing without interpreting' as being absurdities.[25] Instead, all viewing is attached to some perspective, and all viewers are limited in some sense to the perspectives at their command.[27] In The Genealogy of Morals he writes:
Let us be on guard against the dangerous old conceptual fiction that posited a 'pure, will-less, painless, timeless knowing subject'; let us guard against the snares of such contradictory concepts as 'pure reason', 'absolute spirituality', 'knowledge in itself': these always demand that we should think of an eye that is completely unthinkable, an eye turned in no particular direction, in which the active and interpreting forces, through which alone seeing becomes seeing something, are supposed to be lacking; these always demand of the eye an absurdity and a nonsense. There is only a perspective seeing, only a perspective knowing; and the more affects we allow to speak about one thing, the more eyes, different eyes, we can use to observe one thing, the more complete will our 'concept' of this thing, our 'objectivity' be.[28]

— Friedrich Nietzsche, The Genealogy of Morals (1887; III:12), transl. Walter Kaufmann
In this, Nietzsche takes a contextualist approach which rejects any God's-eye view of the world.[29] This has been further linked to his notion of the death of God and the dangers of a resulting relativism. However, Nietzsche's perspectivism itself stands in sharp contrast to any such relativism.[3] In outlining his perspectivism, Nietzsche rejects those who claim everything to be subjective, by disassembling the notion of the subject as itself a mere invention and interpretation.[30] He further states that, since the two are mutually dependent on each other, the collapse of the God's-eye view causes also the notion of the thing-in-itself to fall apart with it. Nietzsche views this collapse to reveal, through his genealogical project, that all that has been considered non-perspectival knowledge, the entire tradition of Western metaphysics, has itself been only a perspective.[27][29] His perspectivism and genealogical project are further integrated into each other in addressing the psychological drives that underlie various philosophical programs and perspectives, as a form of critique.[4] Here, contemporary scholar Ken Gemes views Nietzsche's perspectivism to above all be a principle of moral psychology, rejecting interpretations of it as an epistemological thesis outrightly.[4] It is through this method of critique that the deficiencies of various perspectives can be alleviated—through a critical mediation of the differences between them rather than any appeals to the non-perspectival.[4][17] In a posthumously published aphorism from The Will to Power, Nietzsche writes:
"Everything is subjective," you say; but even this is interpretation. The "subject" is not something given, it is something added and invented and projected behind what there is.—Finally, is it necessary to posit an interpreter behind the interpretation? Even this is invention, hypothesis.

In so far as the word "knowledge" has any meaning, the world is knowable; but it is interpretable otherwise, it has no meaning behind it, but countless meanings.—"Perspectivism."

It is our needs that interpret the world; our drives and their For and Against. Every drive is a kind of lust to rule; each one has its perspective that it would like to compel all the other drives to accept as a norm.[30]

— Friedrich Nietzsche, The Will to Power, §481 (1883–1888), transl. Walter Kaufmann and R. J. Hollingdale
While Nietzsche does not plainly reject truth and objectivity, he does reject the notions of absolute truth, external facts, and non-perspectival objectivity.[4][25]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perspectivism

Dancin'Dog

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #249 on: July 10, 2024, 07:34:29 AM »
We would not be having this discussion if DJT had been handled properly for all the crimes he has committed before, during, and after his presidency.  The fact he is considered a legitimate candidate is the problem. 


The level of success of Jan 6 is not relevant.  There was a violent mob that was encouraged by DJT.  Most of his actions were poorly planned and executed, but the intent was there, and the forgiveness and support by the GOP was never wavering.  DJT is their monster and they refuse to reel him in. 


We are blaming the sitting president for not stepping aside while the US still faces this threat.  Abraham Lincoln is considered a hero for holding the country together.  Joe Biden is facing a similar situation. 


We aren't in Biden's shoes.  It's easy for us to say what he should do, but that doesn't make any of us right. All we can really do is fight the disinformation and vote Blue.