Author Topic: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves  (Read 160119 times)

nereo

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #50 on: July 01, 2024, 03:46:19 PM »
If the last couple responses are where Democrat opinion settles post debate we are so screwed.
What do you mean?

ATtiny85

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #51 on: July 01, 2024, 03:53:28 PM »

Your confidence in France's ability to step in and save us in 2025 is admirable.

LOL, touché!

Miss Piggy

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #52 on: July 01, 2024, 04:02:52 PM »
So, you'd rather have Trump?

Let's be honest. Both Biden and Trump are too old to be president. But right now, one of the 2 is going to win the election. Pick.

I hope Republicans are proud of themselves.

Really, I hope that the US exists in some recognizable way in 30 years.

It's so unfortunate that neither party knew years ago that there was going to be an election this year. Had they only known, I trust that they would have done some succession planning to ensure we wouldn't be choosing between two men who have already outlived their life expectancies. So unfortunate. Oh well...better luck to all of us next time. Now, when is the NEXT election...does anybody know?

/sarcasm (just in case it wasn't clear)

iris lily

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #53 on: July 01, 2024, 05:17:02 PM »
Given the pressure for Biden to step out of the race in the last few days, I’ve decided that the Democrats are equally as ineffective at keeping an inappropriate candidate off the ticket as Republicans.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2024, 09:12:45 AM by iris lily »

reeshau

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #54 on: July 01, 2024, 08:11:29 PM »
Now, when is the NEXT election...does anybody know?

I'm not sure about the end date, but I believe the next campaign will begin Nov. 6.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #55 on: July 02, 2024, 06:33:44 AM »
If the last couple responses are where Democrat opinion settles post debate we are so screwed.
It will be a low-turnout election I think.

Trump's shtick is a nine-year-old old joke now, and it's up for debate whether anyone who didn't vote for him in 2020 will vote for him in 2024. Certainly no one who voted Trump in 2020 is discouraged today by his felony conviction but I don't think he's won over anybody new, on the net.

It all comes down to whether Democrats show up, and history shows Democrats are the most fickle kind of voters - practically looking for an excuse to wash their hands of the outcome.

If the talk about Biden's debate performance and age is used as an excuse by just a few Dems not to show up, then the 66.6% turnout of the 2020 election might look more like the 60.1% turnout of the 2016 election, which itself was in line with 20-year norms. 2020 was an outlier in terms of voter participation, with the highest turnout in a presidential election since 1900, and it was in the midst of a national emergency in which hundreds of thousands of people had died. 

Charisma seems to be required to get Democratic presidents re-elected (see Clinton, Obama) and Biden simply doesn't have it. Yet it remains to be seen if the protest vote against Trump, rather than Biden's charisma, was the reason for higher turnout in 2020.

jrhampt

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #56 on: July 02, 2024, 08:12:22 AM »
@jrhampt - yes!

I also canceled my NYT subscription today.

Good.  Let's hope there are enough of us out there to send the message that they need to cut this shit out.  As a bonus, this can also go in the "What small things did you do TODAY to save money" thread...

Ron Scott

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #57 on: July 02, 2024, 09:10:28 AM »
Whitman and Manchin, either order.

Samuel

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #58 on: July 02, 2024, 09:18:50 AM »
If the last couple responses are where Democrat opinion settles post debate we are so screwed.
What do you mean?

I don't believe the appropriate response to alarm bells is to plug your ears and get mad at the people pointing out the building is on fire. Insisting that nothing new was learned from that debate and nothing in the race has changed is difficult for me to understand.

If the goal is to decisively defeat Trump then Democrats need to have these discussions about a messy but potentially necessary change to the ticket. Crossing all our fingers and toes and hoping and praying Biden can make it 4+ months without similarly bad days (or possibly much worse) is not a strategy I am all that comfortable with any more. It feels like a very bad bet.

Like most others here I'll vote for whoever is the Democratic name on the ballot in November but we're not the people who need persuading. Hardly anyone whose vote will truly matter (a couple hundred thousand centrist voters in each of the 6-7 swing states)  is deciding between Trump and Biden, they're deciding whether there is someone in this race worth voting for at all. Biden massively (perhaps mortally) hurt his case in that debate.

Not saying Democrats can't muck things up and choose someone less likely to beat Trump but rushing to try and rebuild the collective illusion that Biden is old but fundamentally sound is not how I think this should be handled.

Financial.Velociraptor

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #59 on: July 02, 2024, 09:21:20 AM »
I know people who are die hards for both parties.  They would for Satan if he were on their party's ticket.  Those people are about evenly distributed between red/blue.  The people in the middle decide who wins.  I don't know of anyone in that middle ground that didn't lock in their choice one way or the other because of Jan 6.  I don't see anyone in the middle who seems to have been persuaded either way their Jan 6 stance needs  re-evaluating b/c of the debate.  This includes people who I'd normally consider single issue voters (abortion) - Jan 6 trumps Roe/Wade for everyone I know.

I think the above analysis about this being turnout decided is spot on.

iris lily

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #60 on: July 02, 2024, 09:21:21 AM »
If the last couple responses are where Democrat opinion settles post debate we are so screwed.
well, ya know, it may well settle there.

Trump gets 34 felony convictions. No problem, his poll numbers dont change.

Biden demonstrates the extreme frailty we knew was there ‘tho gaslighting administration and media didnt recognize. No change as of today, stay the course is what we hear.

In a couple of days we will know for sure it will be Biden vs Trump at the polls. I am now placing bets of 2 to 1 Biden stays in with Trump for the win. Biden is the Trump camp’s best weapon.


jrhampt

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #61 on: July 02, 2024, 10:41:35 AM »
No, Democrats will defeat Biden with no help needed from Trump if they continue carrying on this way.  If they are serious about kicking out Biden, Harris is the obvious choice, but no one is pushing for that.  Therefore I can only conclude they are unserious and can't do math.  This pundit makes the same point (along with a few others) below:

https://statuskuo.substack.com/p/be-practical-not-problematic

bacchi

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #62 on: July 02, 2024, 11:17:24 AM »
If the last couple responses are where Democrat opinion settles post debate we are so screwed.
well, ya know, it may well settle there.

Trump gets 34 felony convictions. No problem, his poll numbers dont change.

Polling immediately after the conviction shows some slippage among independents and even some Republicans (7%). Is there more recent polling that indicates he gained back those voters?

Quote from: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/06/17/trouble-for-trump-in-a-new-poll-on-his-conviction-00163498
Among the most notable findings in our poll: 21 percent of independents said the conviction made them less likely to support Trump and that it would be an important factor in their vote.

Quote
Biden demonstrates the extreme frailty we knew was there ‘tho gaslighting administration and media didnt recognize. No change as of today, stay the course is what we hear.

In a couple of days we will know for sure it will be Biden vs Trump at the polls. I am now placing bets of 2 to 1 Biden stays in with Trump for the win. Biden is the Trump camp’s best weapon.

Given the presidential total immunity in all but name, I expect turnout will be nearly as high as 2020.

Related, can Biden now have Trump assassinated because he's a threat to democracy?

Phenix

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #63 on: July 02, 2024, 11:29:36 AM »
I know people who are die hards for both parties.  They would for Satan if he were on their party's ticket.  Those people are about evenly distributed between red/blue.  The people in the middle decide who wins.  I don't know of anyone in that middle ground that didn't lock in their choice one way or the other because of Jan 6.  I don't see anyone in the middle who seems to have been persuaded either way their Jan 6 stance needs  re-evaluating b/c of the debate.  This includes people who I'd normally consider single issue voters (abortion) - Jan 6 trumps Roe/Wade for everyone I know.

I think the above analysis about this being turnout decided is spot on.

You must not know many low information voters in the middle. The ones I know are more concerned that the McDonalds meal they used to get for $4.99 when Trump was in office is now $9.99. Outside of this forum, I can't tell you the last time I heard someone bring up January 6th. From my perspective, January 6th will have minimal impact on the outcome of this election. Repeated clips of a geriatric with a blank stare, toddler squatting, and being guided around will be plastered on every screen possible from now until the election. The image of an old but still sharp candidate is no longer in play. And Harris is even less popular than Biden with voters. I can't see how this won't be a landslide victory for Trump.

bacchi

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #64 on: July 02, 2024, 12:13:59 PM »
I can't see how this won't be a landslide victory for Trump.

If you mean electoral votes, then possibly. Was 2016 -- 304-227 -- considered a landslide? There's a chance that a Republican might actually win the popular vote this cycle!

I'm not convinced though. Trump won't get more votes than last time and Democrats, knowing that it's an important race, will still go to the polls. Some independents might not vote but then the convicted felon is already losing some independents.


partgypsy

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #65 on: July 02, 2024, 12:27:11 PM »
According to latest polls, a Harris ticket is better than a Biden ticket at this point. https://www.cnn.com/2024/07/02/politics/cnn-poll-post-debate/index.html

LaineyAZ

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #66 on: July 02, 2024, 01:56:46 PM »
Someone on the internet reminded everyone that Hillary "won" her debates.  So I also agree that the viewer reaction is way less important than actual voting turnout in November. 

My prediction:  Biden wins, dies in office, Harris becomes president.  MAGA minds are then blown from having a female person of color as U.S. president. 

Meanwhile the down ballot races are not even on the media's radar but are increasingly more important.  I just read an article on how the right-wing is currently very focused on state Attorney General races because of how much power the AG wields. 

Last miscellaneous thoughts on the debate: an internet poster familiar with sound systems said it was surprising, and obviously hurtful to Biden, that the sound level on his microphone was not adjusted for his weaker voice.  Also wondered about the camera angles - Trump's was straight on while Biden was mostly shown at an angle.  I can't imagine this was deliberate by CNN although I bet Biden's team will pay attention to that next time.

iris lily

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #67 on: July 02, 2024, 02:40:07 PM »
If the last couple responses are where Democrat opinion settles post debate we are so screwed.
well, ya know, it may well settle there.

Trump gets 34 felony convictions. No problem, his poll numbers dont change.

Polling immediately after the conviction shows some slippage among independents and even some Republicans (7%). Is there more recent polling that indicates he gained back those voters?

Quote from: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/06/17/trouble-for-trump-in-a-new-poll-on-his-conviction-00163498
Among the most notable findings in our poll: 21 percent of independents said the conviction made them less likely to support Trump and that it would be an important factor in their vote.

Quote
Biden demonstrates the extreme frailty we knew was there ‘tho gaslighting administration and media didnt recognize. No change as of today, stay the course is what we hear.

In a couple of days we will know for sure it will be Biden vs Trump at the polls. I am now placing bets of 2 to 1 Biden stays in with Trump for the win. Biden is the Trump camp’s best weapon.

Given the presidential total immunity in all but name, I expect turnout will be nearly as high as 2020.

Related, can Biden now have Trump assassinated because he's a threat to democracy?
I thought the slippage was only a couple of points which isn’t much, but yes given the tight race a couple of points is something to consider.

But it’s not as thought Trump,has been tossed off the ticket.

Ron Scott

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #68 on: July 02, 2024, 09:20:29 PM »
Someone on the internet reminded everyone that Hillary "won" her debates.

With all deference to “someone on the internet”, there’s losing a debate and then there’s the shitshow Biden put on the other night.

OzzieandHarriet

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #69 on: July 02, 2024, 09:54:48 PM »
I didn't watch the "debate" (sounds like it wasn't much of one, in the traditional sense), but I did watch Heather Cox Richardson's talks that she did on Facebook the past two days. She covered a lot of material, but two things she said about this jumped out at me:

1. Biden spoke in a soft voice, didn't look good, and had a few verbal stumbles, but if you read the transcript, he made total sense (especially compared with the other guy).
2. She has had one-on-one interactions with Biden in the past couple of months (you may recall that she interviewed him) and said he was totally fine.

Take that for what it's worth.

Travis

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #70 on: July 02, 2024, 10:58:52 PM »
I didn't watch the "debate" (sounds like it wasn't much of one, in the traditional sense), but I did watch Heather Cox Richardson's talks that she did on Facebook the past two days. She covered a lot of material, but two things she said about this jumped out at me:

1. Biden spoke in a soft voice, didn't look good, and had a few verbal stumbles, but if you read the transcript, he made total sense (especially compared with the other guy).


Under the category of "a picture is worth a thousand words," that blank stare Biden gave for most of the debate is all anybody questioning his fitness needs to make their point. Trump rambled on absolute nonsense, but he did it with energy. The factual points Biden made are just dust in the breeze now.

Just Joe

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #71 on: July 03, 2024, 06:22:27 AM »
Biden and his performance were both exactly what I expected.  He's a very frail older man.  Where is the shock and surprise coming from?
Perhaps from people who believed Karine Jean-Pierre claiming Biden videos are deepfakes, and got to see a live, uncut version for themselves.

Let's hope she and the press corps are talking about two different sets of videos. Don't need Biden's WH staff to detach from reality like Trump's WH staff were for four years.

Phenix

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #72 on: July 03, 2024, 06:25:20 AM »
I didn't watch the "debate" (sounds like it wasn't much of one, in the traditional sense), but I did watch Heather Cox Richardson's talks that she did on Facebook the past two days. She covered a lot of material, but two things she said about this jumped out at me:

1. Biden spoke in a soft voice, didn't look good, and had a few verbal stumbles, but if you read the transcript, he made total sense (especially compared with the other guy).
2. She has had one-on-one interactions with Biden in the past couple of months (you may recall that she interviewed him) and said he was totally fine.

Take that for what it's worth.

A "few" verbal stumbles. His whole night was a series of verbal stumbles. That transcript would have to put words in his mouth for it to make any sense. Biden doesn't just look weak, his is weak (very weak). A lot of people are "totally fine" in a no pressure situation. In a debate setup where you got to set the rules, you better look near flawless.

reeshau

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #73 on: July 03, 2024, 07:04:14 AM »
I didn't watch the "debate" (sounds like it wasn't much of one, in the traditional sense), but I did watch Heather Cox Richardson's talks that she did on Facebook the past two days. She covered a lot of material, but two things she said about this jumped out at me:

1. Biden spoke in a soft voice, didn't look good, and had a few verbal stumbles, but if you read the transcript, he made total sense (especially compared with the other guy).
2. She has had one-on-one interactions with Biden in the past couple of months (you may recall that she interviewed him) and said he was totally fine.

Take that for what it's worth.

A "few" verbal stumbles. His whole night was a series of verbal stumbles. That transcript would have to put words in his mouth for it to make any sense. Biden doesn't just look weak, his is weak (very weak). A lot of people are "totally fine" in a no pressure situation. In a debate setup where you got to set the rules, you better look near flawless.

Yeah, I think it's very dangerous to take other people's spin on the debate and try to internalize that as your own.  No way even a transcript looks good.  And the picture is everything.

But take this clip:

"For example, we have a thousand trillionaires in America – I mean, billionaires in America. And what’s happening? They’re in a situation where they, in fact, pay 8.2 percent in taxes. If they just paid 24 percent or 25 percent, either one of those numbers, they’d raised $500 million – billion dollars, I should say, in a 10-year period.

We’d be able to right – wipe out his debt. We’d be able to help make sure that – all those things we need to do, childcare, elder care, making sure that we continue to strengthen our healthcare system, making sure that we’re able to make every single solitary person eligible for what I’ve been able to do with the COVID – excuse me, with dealing with everything we have to do with.

Look, if – we finally beat Medicare."

Lots of stumbling on units of measure.  It's only his 3rd question.  Given by his glances, I think he knew he was running out of time.  But that ending: we finally beat Medicare.  Not only doesn't it make sense, but it's probably the worst thing for a politician to say they "beat."

https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/27/politics/read-biden-trump-debate-rush-transcript/index.html

Biden himself said that he was jet lagged; that his staff told him not to do so much international travel right before.  If it's true, did he think this would be a cake walk?  Clearly a mistake.

YttriumNitrate

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #74 on: July 03, 2024, 07:17:22 AM »
Biden himself said that he was jet lagged; that his staff told him not to do so much international travel right before.  If it's true, did he think this would be a cake walk?  Clearly a mistake.
He was at Camp David for the whole week before the debate.[1] If he was still jet lagged after a week, that's not exactly reassuring.

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #75 on: July 03, 2024, 07:18:39 AM »
Just one data point: I'm an American who moved to Canada in 2020, in part motivated by the forces that got Trump elected in 2016.  I've voted Democrat in all the recent elections (after dallying with Green in my youth) but I've never been enthusiastic about the general election candidates.  I liked Bernie, I liked Kucinich (back in the day).  Oh, I liked first term Obama pretty well.

I will not vote for Biden.  I absolutely will not vote for Trump, but I also will not vote for Biden.  I'd been conflicted up until the debate (because of his age, and the forbidding of a true primary by a "pro-democracy" party) but his mental frailty is a dealbreaker.  Actually, it's more the gaslighting of the team around him that have been telling us "he's as sharp as ever" for the past few years.  I thought he was too old in 2020, and I'm tired of being told by the party to keep my opinions to myself and do what they tell me.  That's not how democracy works.

This (like 2016) was an eminently winnable election, but the Democrats have completely blown it due to their belief that they know what's best for us, rather than letter the voice of the people actually speak.  I'm not playing along this time, and TBH, they'll have a tough time winning me back.

I vote in Florida (as it's the last state I lived in) so my vote ultimately doesn't count, but I'll either go third party or, God forbid, write-in.  I could imagine potentially voting Democrat IF they have a meaningful public process through which Biden's successor is chosen.  If they just tell me "it's Harris" or "it's Newsome", though, I'm still out.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2024, 07:40:55 AM by FLBiker »

partgypsy

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #76 on: July 03, 2024, 08:09:52 AM »
Well, at this point there is no chance to do primaries. The only thing they can do is internal polling, and decide from there. So it sounds like, if Biden remains on ticket, you will not vote for him. If the Dem party gets their act together and offers a better ticket, you - also wont vote for them. Ok? What about democratic candidates down ticket. They are equally important if not more so. I have heard the GOP is focusing on attorney general races, bc they wield alot of power, including regarding election rules.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2024, 08:14:03 AM by partgypsy »

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #77 on: July 03, 2024, 08:23:09 AM »
Just one data point: I'm an American who moved to Canada in 2020, in part motivated by the forces that got Trump elected in 2016.  I've voted Democrat in all the recent elections (after dallying with Green in my youth) but I've never been enthusiastic about the general election candidates.  I liked Bernie, I liked Kucinich (back in the day).  Oh, I liked first term Obama pretty well.

I will not vote for Biden.  I absolutely will not vote for Trump, but I also will not vote for Biden.  I'd been conflicted up until the debate (because of his age, and the forbidding of a true primary by a "pro-democracy" party) but his mental frailty is a dealbreaker.  Actually, it's more the gaslighting of the team around him that have been telling us "he's as sharp as ever" for the past few years.  I thought he was too old in 2020, and I'm tired of being told by the party to keep my opinions to myself and do what they tell me.  That's not how democracy works.

This (like 2016) was an eminently winnable election, but the Democrats have completely blown it due to their belief that they know what's best for us, rather than letter the voice of the people actually speak.  I'm not playing along this time, and TBH, they'll have a tough time winning me back.

I vote in Florida (as it's the last state I lived in) so my vote ultimately doesn't count, but I'll either go third party or, God forbid, write-in.  I could imagine potentially voting Democrat IF they have a meaningful public process through which Biden's successor is chosen.  If they just tell me "it's Harris" or "it's Newsome", though, I'm still out.

Vote your values. Even a candidate chosen through a "meaningful public process" will have their warts. Not trying to pick, but I never understood why Dem voters put their candidates through this enormous litmus test and GOP voters can always see the big picture.

blue_green_sparks

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #78 on: July 03, 2024, 08:25:30 AM »
Throwing a vote away is a vote for Trump. Biden's lack of ability to express himself does not change what he believes in and stands for. These brilliant, "anonymous protests" in the ballot box will result in years of living with our revengeful, unethical, moronic, piece-of-shit dictator king.

jrhampt

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #79 on: July 03, 2024, 08:46:57 AM »
Also FYI, there's never really a primary for an incumbent.  This is normal, because the incumbent advantage is huge.  Do what you want, of course, but that's how we ended up with this Supreme Court  - too many people protest voting or not voting in 2016.  Elections have consequences.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #80 on: July 03, 2024, 08:49:18 AM »
Just one data point: I'm an American who moved to Canada in 2020, in part motivated by the forces that got Trump elected in 2016.  I've voted Democrat in all the recent elections (after dallying with Green in my youth) but I've never been enthusiastic about the general election candidates.  I liked Bernie, I liked Kucinich (back in the day).  Oh, I liked first term Obama pretty well.

I will not vote for Biden.  I absolutely will not vote for Trump, but I also will not vote for Biden.  I'd been conflicted up until the debate (because of his age, and the forbidding of a true primary by a "pro-democracy" party) but his mental frailty is a dealbreaker.  Actually, it's more the gaslighting of the team around him that have been telling us "he's as sharp as ever" for the past few years.  I thought he was too old in 2020, and I'm tired of being told by the party to keep my opinions to myself and do what they tell me.  That's not how democracy works.

This (like 2016) was an eminently winnable election, but the Democrats have completely blown it due to their belief that they know what's best for us, rather than letter the voice of the people actually speak.  I'm not playing along this time, and TBH, they'll have a tough time winning me back.

I vote in Florida (as it's the last state I lived in) so my vote ultimately doesn't count, but I'll either go third party or, God forbid, write-in.  I could imagine potentially voting Democrat IF they have a meaningful public process through which Biden's successor is chosen.  If they just tell me "it's Harris" or "it's Newsome", though, I'm still out.

Vote your values. Even a candidate chosen through a "meaningful public process" will have their warts. Not trying to pick, but I never understood why Dem voters put their candidates through this enormous litmus test and GOP voters can always see the big picture.
I too am fascinated by this phenomenon. Republicans are interested in getting policy done, and they will elect a convicted felon if that person will advance their values.

Democrats wonder if a candidate is too physically frail to shovel dirt or if the candidate has a studder. Some refused to vote for Hillary because her IT team broke a technical rule with email servers. Some have been dissuaded by Hunter Biden's screwups, even though he is not even a candidate or cabinet member.

Maybe this simple distinction between political pragmatism and weird excuse-making is what will roll back 100 years of hard won progress over the next 4 years.

cpa cat

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #81 on: July 03, 2024, 09:31:31 AM »
Biden could be in a wheelchair, drooling into his oatmeal, with no idea who or where he is, and I still wouldn't vote for a felon who has demonstrated his willingness to overthrow democracy for his own gain and who appears to be a pathological liar.

The country runs just fine with a President who can't do anything. It does not run fine with a President who is dedicated to self-enrichment and getting his ego stroked.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #82 on: July 03, 2024, 10:02:20 AM »
"Never Trump" voters don't care if they're voting for Biden, Harris, Newsom, or whoever else leads the 2024 ticket.  Voters in swing states may not share that view.

According to an Axios article, Biden's inner circle has been shielding him from everyone outside certain hours (10am to 4pm).  The article's author is writing a book about Biden, so he's not an ideal source (since he profits off his observations becoming important).  But he makes several claims that could be verified by other White House reporters (who risk their access by speaking up).
https://www.axios.com/2024/06/30/top-aides-shielded-biden-white-house-debate

Kris

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #83 on: July 03, 2024, 10:11:11 AM »
Biden could be in a wheelchair, drooling into his oatmeal, with no idea who or where he is, and I still wouldn't vote for a felon who has demonstrated his willingness to overthrow democracy for his own gain and who appears to be a pathological liar.

The country runs just fine with a President who can't do anything. It does not run fine with a President who is dedicated to self-enrichment and getting his ego stroked.

I would vote for one of Biden's smelliest shits over Trump.

But I'm still pissed off that this is where we are. The Dems apparently learned nothing from RBG not stepping down when she should have. The lack of strategy is mind-boggling.

FLBiker

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #84 on: July 03, 2024, 10:15:49 AM »
Sorry for not being more clear.  I wasn't saying "as a Democrat, I am not voting for Biden".  I have never identified as a Democrat, and I have always had a non-homogenous set of values.  One of my strongest held values, in fact, is that a two party system that is incredibly heavily financed by corporations and the wealthy is a fundamentally bad system.  For this reason, I have often been tempted to vote for "third parties" in order to align with my values.  Still, I have typically voted Democrat pragmatically, justifying it to myself as the lesser of two evils, etc.  And, if I were in a swing state, perhaps I would still do this.

The point I was trying to make, though, is that, as a heterodox liberal independent, this paternalism by the Democratic party is too much.  As I said, I'm just one data point.  At the same time, elections nowadays are always won at the margins (as opposed to among the party faithful).

Well, at this point there is no chance to do primaries.

Totally not true.  Other countries are able to do entire election cycles in a month or two, for a lot less money.  I'm not saying that they have to follow the traditional primary process, but there is absolutely a way to do some transparent caucuses in some representative places or something similar.

What about democratic candidates down ticket.

If they were the person in the race that most closely aligned with my values, I'd vote for them.  One value I hold highly, though, is honesty, and the national Democratic party has not demonstrated to me that this is a shared value.

Also FYI, there's never really a primary for an incumbent.  This is normal, because the incumbent advantage is huge.

Absolutely true.  Having an 81 year-old candidate (who, incidentally, promised at one time to be a single term president) is also not normal.

Do what you want, of course, but that's how we ended up with this Supreme Court  - too many people protest voting or not voting in 2016.

Re: the Supreme Court, I would argue that the weakness of Democratic legislators in getting a nominee approved in 2016, coupled with the refusal of liberal judges to retire pragmatically (the proud tradition of which Sotomayor is continuing), is more to blame than protest votes.  And, again, to be clear, I voted Dem in 2016 (and 2020).


simonsez

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #85 on: July 03, 2024, 10:20:47 AM »
Throwing a vote away is a vote for Trump. Biden's lack of ability to express himself does not change what he believes in and stands for. These brilliant, "anonymous protests" in the ballot box will result in years of living with our revengeful, unethical, moronic, piece-of-shit dictator king.
You have what's important to you, cool.

Others have what's important to them.  Everyone draws a different line in the sand.  Not sure why it's such a lagging effect for parties to figure this out - but this one has seemed obvious for years now that this could or would be an issue.  The party bet on it not being an issue and it's not going well currently.  You seem to want to point blame at individual voters because of indications that the person you want for this role isn't looking great at the moment (highly subject to change!).  Given our system with restrictive parameters, though, I think blame should be focused more on those in control of who the voting options are in the first place. 

"I am not a member of an organized political party.  I am a Democrat" - Will Roger's quip has probably been on more and more people's minds lately.

A party would never change if people kept voting for their candidate in large enough numbers.  If enough people change their vote or no longer vote at all maybe it will inspire change in the direction of a given party.

Here's an article from Dec 2019:
https://www.politico.com/news/2019/12/11/biden-single-term-082129

Instead of ignoring that and trotting every incumbent back out there until they reach the allowable limit, maybe the party should've instead taken the guy at his word and the discussions that were happening behind closed doors and started contingency planning a bit more seriously when they had the time.

They have failed in that regard.  And it seems a certain number of people in this country are not going to reward that particular failure.  We shall see what happens at perhaps the most unimportant election level later this year.

FWIW - While I know many in my circles that lean left or have voted D in the past and are now questioning what to do, I also know plenty who won't vote for Trump anymore because his schtick is now such a known quality that in 2016 was more of a question mark (since he had never been Prez and who knew what all the posturing and antics would actually look like once in office so I think then many "R no matter what" people didn't think twice and just went with their typical party selection) and is now an exclamation mark.  Anecdata and all (and I do live in an area where the redness or blueness isn't likely to change in a given election - meaning individual votes don't really matter and one can posture without it really having much damage) - but I think there is just a lot of confusion and frustration in every neighborhood you look at in the US no matter who or what they have traditionally supported (and whether or not that has shifted or always been the same).

MDM

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #86 on: July 03, 2024, 10:53:18 AM »
Biden and his performance were both exactly what I expected.  He's a very frail older man.  Where is the shock and surprise coming from?
Perhaps from people who believed Karine Jean-Pierre claiming Biden videos are deepfakes, and got to see a live, uncut version for themselves.

Let's hope she and the press corps are talking about two different sets of videos.
Faint hope.  As many here and elsewhere have noted, one can have some sympathy for Biden himself not being self-aware enough to perceive his problems, but no sympathy for his inner circle, Democratic party leadership, and others who have been trying to gaslight the voting public about how sharp Biden is, in order to further their own interests.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #87 on: July 03, 2024, 11:50:49 AM »
Biden could be in a wheelchair, drooling into his oatmeal, with no idea who or where he is, and I still wouldn't vote for a felon who has demonstrated his willingness to overthrow democracy for his own gain and who appears to be a pathological liar.

The country runs just fine with a President who can't do anything. It does not run fine with a President who is dedicated to self-enrichment and getting his ego stroked.

I would vote for one of Biden's smelliest shits over Trump.

But I'm still pissed off that this is where we are. The Dems apparently learned nothing from RBG not stepping down when she should have. The lack of strategy is mind-boggling.
I think it's more a lack of a back-bench. When the party chose to compete only in "blue" states / large cities and only at the congressional level and above, they eliminated thousands of opportunities for young leaders to develop their skills, connections, and political resumes in state legislatures, as mayors, or as governors. Biden is running because there is no one to replace him, much less the hyper-competitive gaggle of experienced candidates ready to run on every Republican ticket.

They forgot that the core role of a political party is to provide ambitious people a vehicle to elected positions. Nowadays there are not many options for such people to make headway in the Democratic party, unless they are already in one of the last remaining blue areas, in which case they must run on a platform that alienates any other type of area.

Phenix

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #88 on: July 03, 2024, 11:52:57 AM »
Biden could be in a wheelchair, drooling into his oatmeal, with no idea who or where he is, and I still wouldn't vote for a felon who has demonstrated his willingness to overthrow democracy for his own gain and who appears to be a pathological liar.

The country runs just fine with a President who can't do anything. It does not run fine with a President who is dedicated to self-enrichment and getting his ego stroked.

But the US president isn't only influencing the country, they have a decent amount of influence on the entire world. For example, the Paris Agreement. While I 100% agree we should be a part of it, I also agree with Trump that we should only be a part of it if the likes of China (among others) are footing an equitable part of the bill. Same for NATO. I also agree with Trump when he says that Putin wouldn't have invaded Ukraine if he were president and the war in Israel would already be over. Trump's actions may undermine democracy, but it's extreme to say he will overthrow it.

partgypsy

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #89 on: July 03, 2024, 12:03:05 PM »
Biden could be in a wheelchair, drooling into his oatmeal, with no idea who or where he is, and I still wouldn't vote for a felon who has demonstrated his willingness to overthrow democracy for his own gain and who appears to be a pathological liar.

The country runs just fine with a President who can't do anything. It does not run fine with a President who is dedicated to self-enrichment and getting his ego stroked.

But the US president isn't only influencing the country, they have a decent amount of influence on the entire world. For example, the Paris Agreement. While I 100% agree we should be a part of it, I also agree with Trump that we should only be a part of it if the likes of China (among others) are footing an equitable part of the bill. Same for NATO. I also agree with Trump when he says that Putin wouldn't have invaded Ukraine if he were president and the war in Israel would already be over. Trump's actions may undermine democracy, but it's extreme to say he will overthrow it.

Trumps actions have already undermined it.
Based on the past and present actions, it seems foolhardy to not believe he will dispense with any parts of our governing system that do not suit him, as he himself has said he intends to.
This is beyond policy disagreements. Catch up.   

iris lily

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #90 on: July 03, 2024, 01:25:19 PM »
Just one data point: I'm an American who moved to Canada in 2020, in part motivated by the forces that got Trump elected in 2016.  I've voted Democrat in all the recent elections (after dallying with Green in my youth) but I've never been enthusiastic about the general election candidates.  I liked Bernie, I liked Kucinich (back in the day).  Oh, I liked first term Obama pretty well.

I will not vote for Biden.  I absolutely will not vote for Trump, but I also will not vote for Biden.  I'd been conflicted up until the debate (because of his age, and the forbidding of a true primary by a "pro-democracy" party) but his mental frailty is a dealbreaker.  Actually, it's more the gaslighting of the team around him that have been telling us "he's as sharp as ever" for the past few years.  I thought he was too old in 2020, and I'm tired of being told by the party to keep my opinions to myself and do what they tell me.  That's not how democracy works.

This (like 2016) was an eminently winnable election, but the Democrats have completely blown it due to their belief that they know what's best for us, rather than letter the voice of the people actually speak.  I'm not playing along this time, and TBH, they'll have a tough time winning me back.

I vote in Florida (as it's the last state I lived in) so my vote ultimately doesn't count, but I'll either go third party or, God forbid, write-in.  I could imagine potentially voting Democrat IF they have a meaningful public process through which Biden's successor is chosen.  If they just tell me "it's Harris" or "it's Newsome", though, I'm still out.

Wait, are you me? I was going to hold my nose and vote for Biden to keep Trump out of the White House ( I voted 3rd party last two times) but the shitshow debate performance has me thinking otherwise. And just as important is as you say Biden’s gaslighting team. A bunch of lying liars who lie to prop up the old fellow.

As Sam Harris said, paraphrasing, those people on the White .house inside should feel shame and those on the outside should feel fury. Sam Harris has said in the past  he will vote for Biden’s head picked in a jar before he votes for Donald Trump.

And for those journalists who are convinced the President  is fine because they have met with a lucid man, them, perhaps they don’t understand that disabled people which includes frail elderly have good days and bad days. She got him on a good day. I guarantee that if she’d come to the White House for an interview on a bad day, she would’ve suddenly found herself escorted out because the president has “emergency issues to deal with. “


iris lily

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #91 on: July 03, 2024, 01:31:14 PM »
Biden could be in a wheelchair, drooling into his oatmeal, with no idea who or where he is, and I still wouldn't vote for a felon who has demonstrated his willingness to overthrow democracy for his own gain and who appears to be a pathological liar.

The country runs just fine with a President who can't do anything. It does not run fine with a President who is dedicated to self-enrichment and getting his ego stroked.

I would vote for one of Biden's smelliest shits over Trump.

But I'm still pissed off that this is where we are. The Dems apparently learned nothing from RBG not stepping down when she should have. The lack of strategy is mind-boggling.

It’s not just RBG. It’s Feinstein. it’s McConnell. It’s any number of ancient old boomers who can no longer do the job both in Congress or elsewhere. Hell, just last weekend we confabbed about someone serving in an official capacity in our plant society who refuses to step down but who no longer communicates about her area of responsibility. Three years we have not heard from her yet she has her defenders.


Phenix

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #92 on: July 03, 2024, 01:35:55 PM »
Biden could be in a wheelchair, drooling into his oatmeal, with no idea who or where he is, and I still wouldn't vote for a felon who has demonstrated his willingness to overthrow democracy for his own gain and who appears to be a pathological liar.

The country runs just fine with a President who can't do anything. It does not run fine with a President who is dedicated to self-enrichment and getting his ego stroked.

But the US president isn't only influencing the country, they have a decent amount of influence on the entire world. For example, the Paris Agreement. While I 100% agree we should be a part of it, I also agree with Trump that we should only be a part of it if the likes of China (among others) are footing an equitable part of the bill. Same for NATO. I also agree with Trump when he says that Putin wouldn't have invaded Ukraine if he were president and the war in Israel would already be over. Trump's actions may undermine democracy, but it's extreme to say he will overthrow it.

Trumps actions have already undermined it.
Based on the past and present actions, it seems foolhardy to not believe he will dispense with any parts of our governing system that do not suit him, as he himself has said he intends to.
This is beyond policy disagreements. Catch up.

With what?
Trump is better for the world at large than Biden. A weak US President is not what we need. As much as you've been led to believe, Trump is not the end of democracy in the US. He's not the answer, but he is better than a weak Biden. Hands down, the world is better with Trump than it is with Biden.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #93 on: July 03, 2024, 02:11:49 PM »
Biden could be in a wheelchair, drooling into his oatmeal, with no idea who or where he is, and I still wouldn't vote for a felon who has demonstrated his willingness to overthrow democracy for his own gain and who appears to be a pathological liar.

The country runs just fine with a President who can't do anything. It does not run fine with a President who is dedicated to self-enrichment and getting his ego stroked.

But the US president isn't only influencing the country, they have a decent amount of influence on the entire world. For example, the Paris Agreement. While I 100% agree we should be a part of it, I also agree with Trump that we should only be a part of it if the likes of China (among others) are footing an equitable part of the bill. Same for NATO. I also agree with Trump when he says that Putin wouldn't have invaded Ukraine if he were president and the war in Israel would already be over. Trump's actions may undermine democracy, but it's extreme to say he will overthrow it.

Trumps actions have already undermined it.
Based on the past and present actions, it seems foolhardy to not believe he will dispense with any parts of our governing system that do not suit him, as he himself has said he intends to.
This is beyond policy disagreements. Catch up.

With what?
Trump is better for the world at large than Biden. A weak US President is not what we need. As much as you've been led to believe, Trump is not the end of democracy in the US. He's not the answer, but he is better than a weak Biden. Hands down, the world is better with Trump than it is with Biden.
Are you confusing physical weakness with vowing to abandon Ukraine, hobble NATO, and undermine democracy around the world?

partgypsy

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #94 on: July 03, 2024, 03:21:24 PM »
Phoenix genuinely curious why you think trump would be a better leader. When he was in office it was a genuine shit show. His cabinet was a revolving door of hirings and firings. He is incapable of listening or understanding deep topics. If someone is competent he feels that shows him up, and fires them. Others quit when they saw he is incapable of the basics of governing. The ones that remained, well they had their own agendas and should be no where NEAR circles of power. This is the dude who stared straight into the sun. And that was one of his "good days". As far as standing, our standing and respect plummeted when he was president. Other countries treated him as useful idiot (North Korea, Phillipines, Russia). Think about it. Would Putin
 work this hard to install Trump in office if it made the US stronger?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2024, 03:41:51 PM by partgypsy »

partgypsy

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #95 on: July 03, 2024, 03:40:24 PM »
Russia is no friend of the US, or any country it calls the west. It uses disinfirmation campaigns to destabilize western countries and their governments. In 2016 that involved spreading misinformation that would increase American isolationism, increase racial tensions, and  rumors about Hillary to give Trump a tactical advantage in the campaign. There is also evidence from our and other intelligence communities that Trump is compromised in some way, and has been cultivated as an "asset". There was information leaked that caused the death of a number of us assets; this was after Trump had a private meeting with Putin. In addition there are still classified materials missing from the volumes of classified files Trump removed from the White House in his departure. He made our allies weaker, and our enemies stronger. Way too much to list but just one example.in addition to hiding/stealing and inappropriate sharing confidential information aides describe him destroying official white house documents.  https://abcnews.go.com/US/appalled-witnesses-told-special-counsel-trumps-handling-classified/story?id=109362691
« Last Edit: July 03, 2024, 04:02:23 PM by partgypsy »

PeteD01

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #96 on: July 03, 2024, 04:12:43 PM »
...
 Hands down, the world is better with Trump than it is with Biden.
Phoenix genuinely curious why you think trump would be a better leader. When he was in office it was a genuine shit show. His cabinet was a revolving door of hirings and firings. He is incapable of listening or understanding deep topics. If someone is competent he feels that shows him up, and fires them. Others quit when they saw he is incapable of the basics of governing. The ones that remained, well they had their own agendas and should be no where NEAR circles of power. This is the dude who stared straight into the sun. And that was one of his "good days". As far as standing, our standing and respect plummeted when he was president. Other countries treated him as useful idiot (North Korea, Phillipines, Russia). Think about it. Would Putin
 work this hard to install Trump in office if it made the US stronger?

I think you are making an assumption here. He did not say that Trump would be good for the US but for the world and that is a correct statement.

DJT would definitely be better for Russia, China, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Hungary, and whoever else can throw a few dollars his way.

So in a sense, throwing the US under the bus for the benefit of "the world" and DJT himself does make sense if one sees things through Trump´s lense - notwithstanding that the benefit to the world as DJT understands it is contingent on the degradation of the US economy.

So yeah, DJT would be good for the world at the expense of Americans.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2024, 04:14:43 PM by PeteD01 »

MasterStache

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #97 on: July 04, 2024, 07:07:47 AM »
For example, the Paris Agreement. While I 100% agree we should be a part of it, I also agree with Trump that we should only be a part of it if the likes of China (among others) are footing an equitable part of the bill.

FYI, the US wasn't paying an equitable part of the bill. In 2017 we accounted for the highest emissions on a per capita basis yet ranked 11th in terms of our contributions. Our emissions per capita were more than double China and 8 times as much as India. 
« Last Edit: July 04, 2024, 07:11:42 AM by MasterStache »

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #98 on: July 04, 2024, 07:11:57 AM »
DJT would definitely be better for Russia, China, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Hungary, and whoever else can throw a few dollars his way.
Former President Trump has proposed 60% tariffs on Chinese imports, which would do great damage to China's economy.  Can you cite where China has stated it prefers former President Trump, with his 60% tariffs, over President Biden?

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/02/04/trump-floats-more-than-60percent-tariffs-on-chinese-imports.html

cpa cat

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #99 on: July 04, 2024, 07:47:48 AM »
With what?
Trump is better for the world at large than Biden. A weak US President is not what we need. As much as you've been led to believe, Trump is not the end of democracy in the US. He's not the answer, but he is better than a weak Biden. Hands down, the world is better with Trump than it is with Biden.

I am far more concerned with preserving our own country and democracy than I am about our president playing world police. If we allow a man who is openly corrupt and openly disrupts our elections to be president, there’s no telling what our own country will be like in 4 years. Will we even have an election in 2028? How many “official” crimes will he commit? What will the Supreme Court be like?

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!