Author Topic: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves  (Read 160058 times)

Ron Scott

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1800 on: November 06, 2024, 10:32:03 AM »
It's always the dems fault.The next 4 years are the dems fault, because more people voted for Trump. The people who voted for Trump bear no responsibility.

Nope.

The Dems and the GOP have jointly captured the executive and legislative functions of government and drag American down (see my signature quote below). For their joint inability to solve America’s problems, I blame them both.

LAST NIGHT was the Dems fault. They had one thing to accomplish: Beat the worst candidate ever to run. And they failed miserably.

Let us not forget that the Democratic leaders were so worried about their fascist opponent destroying democracy in America that they ran a feeble old man, propping him up until the open curtains revealed how bad off he was.
[/quote

And the ONLY reason Harris was the pick is Biden said so? She failed in one primary and was given the keys to the Dem kingdom for free after Joe got senile at his debate. How incompetent can you get??


MMMarbleheader

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1802 on: November 06, 2024, 10:35:38 AM »
It's always the dems fault.The next 4 years are the dems fault, because more people voted for Trump. The people who voted for Trump bear no responsibility.

Nope.

The Dems and the GOP have jointly captured the executive and legislative functions of government and drag American down (see my signature quote below). For their joint inability to solve America’s problems, I blame them both.

LAST NIGHT was the Dems fault. They had one thing to accomplish: Beat the worst candidate ever to run. And they failed miserably.

Let us not forget that the Democratic leaders were so worried about their fascist opponent destroying democracy in America that they ran a feeble old man, propping him up until the open curtains revealed how bad off he was.
[/quote

And the ONLY reason Harris was the pick is Biden said so? She failed in one primary and was given the keys to the Dem kingdom for free after Joe got senile at his debate. How incompetent can you get??

Would have loved to see Whitmer, Beshear, or Shapiro in a real primary.

Glenstache

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1803 on: November 06, 2024, 10:41:38 AM »
Americans are to blame for this. Regardless of party or whatever, we are the ones who populate those institutions and bear full responsibility for electing the Cheetahs Will Eat Your Face party to power. We will get the government we deserve. If that is because we fell victim to our own infighting or what not, then that is still on us. We had the ability to be better, but were not.

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1804 on: November 06, 2024, 10:49:47 AM »
All this post-game analysis on how one party was too elitist and out of touch while the other was not. Nope. Money. Prominent billionaires siding with Trump made the difference.

Harris raised more money than Trump.

Finally, I still blame the media. Which is owned by the billionaires who support Trump.

Your kidding, right? Ok, Fox and a few conservative networks, yes. But the media overall is very obviously biased left.


I think you need to recalibrate your sense of the mainstream media.

Here’s a piece from the Guardian that will help.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/sep/06/trump-clinton-harris-election

Which conservative media organizations provided moderators and hosted all the debates again? (Hint: CNN, ABC, CBS)

Which of these is a conservative mainstream media outlet?

CNN
NBC
CBS
ABC
MSNBC
NPR
NY Times
Washington Post
LA Times
Associated Press
Reuters
Bloomberg

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/10/31/americans-top-sources-of-political-news-ahead-of-the-2024-election/

https://www.statista.com/statistics/381569/leading-news-and-media-sites-usa-by-share-of-visits/

https://ballotpedia.org/Fact_check/Do_97_percent_of_journalist_donations_go_to_Democrats - TLDR, yes, virtually every journalist who donated to a political campaign/candidate went to Democrats.

Here's a recent White House Press Corp seating chart - I would say this is a pretty definitive list of mainstream media (which includes Fox News)
https://whcinsider.com/2021/12/27/whca-announces-new-seating-chart-for-white-house-briefing-room/

the_gastropod

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1805 on: November 06, 2024, 10:57:07 AM »
The armchair experts always crack me up. We all want simple answers to extraordinarily complex situations, like the social dynamics of elections. None of this is simple, or, probably even knowable at all. Both political parties are basically mashing buttons, hoping for the best. This year, Trump's button mashing apparently worked better than Harris's. (I think) that sucks. I'm very disappointed with the results. And like everyone else, I have no idea why the results are what they are. Maybe we can learn some of the reasons in the coming years.

One challenge Democrats face, I think, is the double standard situation we're now in. The cat's out of the bag, so to speak, and Republicans do, and are expected to, win at any costs. It's expected that they'll blatantly lie about things as inconsequential as crowd sizes, to immigrants eating pets, to the outcome of a free election. It's expected that they'll refuse to follow basic norms, even ones they made up (refuse to divest from personal investments, refuse to show tax returns, go ahead and appoint supreme court justices in final year of presidential term, which they claimed was not allowed for the previous Democratic president). Republicans have become the quintessential examples of demagogues the founding fathers worried so much about.

Democrats, for all their many problems, do basically operate in good faith, I believe. They do have a floor to what they're willing to do. When a Democrat behaves unethically, usually they're asked to step down by their peers (e.g., most Democratic Senators called on Bob Menendez to resign after his whole gold bar fiasco. That would just never happen in today's Republican Party). So the Democrats really are fighting at a colossal disadvantage. Republicans are playing Streetball rules against Democrats Basketball rules. It's just not a fair game.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2024, 11:00:10 AM by the_gastropod »

GuitarStv

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1806 on: November 06, 2024, 11:12:49 AM »
Democrats, for all their many problems, do basically operate in good faith, I believe. They do have a floor to what they're willing to do. When a Democrat behaves unethically, usually they're asked to step down by their peers (e.g., most Democratic Senators called on Bob Menendez to resign after his whole gold bar fiasco. That would just never happen in today's Republican Party). So the Democrats really are fighting at a colossal disadvantage. Republicans are playing Streetball rules against Democrats Basketball rules. It's just not a fair game.

I agree with this.  So the solution is either a winner take all hellscape of only dirty politics, or Democrats continue to lose over and over again.



What were the voter turnout numbers for 2024 vs 2020 national elections?  They seem much lower for 2024, but I can't seem to find the official numbers.
2020: Biden 81 million, Trump 74 million
2024: Harris 66 million, Trump 71 million

Something seems off about these numbers to me. I was reading of record turnouts and I have difficulty believing 15 million democrats stayed home this year
Roughly 7 million votes in California have not been counted yet.  And other states haven't even been decided yet, with not enough votes counted.  You're looking at an incomplete vote total for 2024.

Yeah, I was wondering if Harris will actually win the popular vote in the end (not that who the most people vote for matters in a democracy).

iris lily

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1807 on: November 06, 2024, 11:13:26 AM »
While the Dems don't have great policies, I don't think they should be blamed for failing to appeal to racists, sexists, fascists, deplorables and others who are small minded and fear migrants and change.

In a nutshell, you have demonstrated why Trump is going to be our next president. The majority of Republican voters do not have an issue with legal immigration and positive change. They are not racist, sexist, or fascists. That narrative is tired and if the results from last night don't change the attitudes of Democrats, they're going to keep repeating the same mistakes.

Obama was the last Democrat to actually understand the assignment. Had it not been for Trump's COVID response, I don't think Biden would have won. And starting at Day 1 of Biden's presidency, Democrats should have been preparing their next candidate. For 4+ years Republicans pointed out Joe's declining mental state and then you send him up on stage to remove all doubt in Americans' minds. Then the party pulls a 180 from Joe's fine to last minute best option Harris. For how smart and educated the MMM Forum is, how anyone thought this election would turn out any different is baffling to some of us here.

Everyone is a genius in hindsight.

It’s a nice summary though.

And the new age Republicans are just as entrenched in their stupid, limiting ideas.

At least The Donald was squishy about abortion and he recognized that the Republican party needs to let go of that essay campaign tool.
Unfortunately people with varying opinions have been banned or driven off, so we'll likely never be able to have a good discussion here, though I'd like to see one.

Agreed. It is too bad voices with varying opinions are shouted off this forum.

I actually am surprised Ron Scott still has a functional account here.

dividendman

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1808 on: November 06, 2024, 11:17:27 AM »
While the Dems don't have great policies, I don't think they should be blamed for failing to appeal to racists, sexists, fascists, deplorables and others who are small minded and fear migrants and change.

In a nutshell, you have demonstrated why Trump is going to be our next president. The majority of Republican voters do not have an issue with legal immigration and positive change. They are not racist, sexist, or fascists. That narrative is tired and if the results from last night don't change the attitudes of Democrats, they're going to keep repeating the same mistakes.

Obama was the last Democrat to actually understand the assignment. Had it not been for Trump's COVID response, I don't think Biden would have won. And starting at Day 1 of Biden's presidency, Democrats should have been preparing their next candidate. For 4+ years Republicans pointed out Joe's declining mental state and then you send him up on stage to remove all doubt in Americans' minds. Then the party pulls a 180 from Joe's fine to last minute best option Harris. For how smart and educated the MMM Forum is, how anyone thought this election would turn out any different is baffling to some of us here.

Everyone is a genius in hindsight.

It’s a nice summary though.

And the new age Republicans are just as entrenched in their stupid, limiting ideas.

At least The Donald was squishy about abortion and he recognized that the Republican party needs to let go of that essay campaign tool.
Unfortunately people with varying opinions have been banned or driven off, so we'll likely never be able to have a good discussion here, though I'd like to see one.

Agreed. It is too bad voices with varying opinions are shouted off this forum.

I actually am surprised Ron Scott still has a functional account here.

There are no productive discussions on religious convictions, and unfortunately a lot of political ideology has morphed into religious conviction.

FINate

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1809 on: November 06, 2024, 11:22:28 AM »
All this post-game analysis on how one party was too elitist and out of touch while the other was not. Nope. Money. Prominent billionaires siding with Trump made the difference.

Harris raised more money than Trump.

Finally, I still blame the media. Which is owned by the billionaires who support Trump.

Your kidding, right? Ok, Fox and a few conservative networks, yes. But the media overall is very obviously biased left.


I think you need to recalibrate your sense of the mainstream media.

Here’s a piece from the Guardian that will help.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/sep/06/trump-clinton-harris-election

The Guardian is left biased, and this is an opinion piece. I'm saying this as an independent that reads across the MSM political spectrum and didn't vote for either major candidate: There is very clearly a strong overall left bias.

Regardless, I'm not sure it matters much anymore as the relevance of legacy media continues to decline. For better or worse, most people are now getting their information from alternative sources: X, YouTube, Podcasts, etc. The days of needing reporters to cover campaign speeches are over. Same with relying on the media to get out a candidate's talking points. Whereas unscripted long-form interviews are increasingly important. Love or hate him, Joe Rogan's Trump interview likely had an outsized impact on the election.

As an independent, I want vigorous competition between the parties. That's not going to happen if the Dems keep blaming others and fail to reckon with their own issues. Blaming others doesn't bode well for the future of the party.

GuitarStv

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1810 on: November 06, 2024, 11:33:52 AM »
Whereas unscripted long-form interviews are increasingly important. Love or hate him, Joe Rogan's Trump interview likely had an outsized impact on the election.

I thought it was a gigantic mistake for Harris not to go on his show and talk about her policies.  She's a great speaker and would have had a chance to lay out who she is and what she believes in to a large audience that Democrats don't have great reach to.

iris lily

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1811 on: November 06, 2024, 11:41:23 AM »
Whereas unscripted long-form interviews are increasingly important. Love or hate him, Joe Rogan's Trump interview likely had an outsized impact on the election.

I thought it was a gigantic mistake for Harris not to go on his show and talk about her policies.  She's a great speaker and would have had a chance to lay out who she is and what she believes in to a large audience that Democrats don't have great reach to.

Donald Trump’s ability to engage in stream-of-consciousness blather completely suits the Rogan show. Just two guys shooting the shit is Rogan’s brand.

Do you really think Harris would have shined on that show? I dunno, it doesn’t seem like that is her M.O.

She also distained an interview with Dave Ramsey.Sure, a smaller audience,,but maybe she could have scored some points talking about financial stressors of the middle class. Ramsey went to,his interviewees, didn’t expect them to come to him unlike Rogan.

But maybe Harris was just booked solid during these opportunities.

« Last Edit: November 06, 2024, 11:46:06 AM by iris lily »

GuitarStv

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1812 on: November 06, 2024, 11:44:54 AM »
Whereas unscripted long-form interviews are increasingly important. Love or hate him, Joe Rogan's Trump interview likely had an outsized impact on the election.

I thought it was a gigantic mistake for Harris not to go on his show and talk about her policies.  She's a great speaker and would have had a chance to lay out who she is and what she believes in to a large audience that Democrats don't have great reach to.

Donald Trump’s ability to engage in stream-of-consciousness blather completely suits the Rogan show. Just two guys shooting the shit is Rogan’s brand.

Do you really think Harris would have shined on that show? I dunno, it doesn’t seem like that is her M.O.

Harris is an outstanding speaker and very smart.  Her history as a prosecutor means that she can think on her feet very well.  If she had prepared (again, one of her strong suits) I think she could have done great.

iris lily

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1813 on: November 06, 2024, 11:47:13 AM »
Whereas unscripted long-form interviews are increasingly important. Love or hate him, Joe Rogan's Trump interview likely had an outsized impact on the election.

I thought it was a gigantic mistake for Harris not to go on his show and talk about her policies.  She's a great speaker and would have had a chance to lay out who she is and what she believes in to a large audience that Democrats don't have great reach to.

Donald Trump’s ability to engage in stream-of-consciousness blather completely suits the Rogan show. Just two guys shooting the shit is Rogan’s brand.

Do you really think Harris would have shined on that show? I dunno, it doesn’t seem like that is her M.O.

Harris is an outstanding speaker and very smart.  Her history as a prosecutor means that she can think on her feet very well.  If she had prepared (again, one of her strong suits) I think she could have done great.

How do you prepare for 3 hours of relaxed shooting the breeze? She seems better in formal situations to me.

GuitarStv

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1814 on: November 06, 2024, 11:49:44 AM »
Whereas unscripted long-form interviews are increasingly important. Love or hate him, Joe Rogan's Trump interview likely had an outsized impact on the election.

I thought it was a gigantic mistake for Harris not to go on his show and talk about her policies.  She's a great speaker and would have had a chance to lay out who she is and what she believes in to a large audience that Democrats don't have great reach to.

Donald Trump’s ability to engage in stream-of-consciousness blather completely suits the Rogan show. Just two guys shooting the shit is Rogan’s brand.

Do you really think Harris would have shined on that show? I dunno, it doesn’t seem like that is her M.O.

Harris is an outstanding speaker and very smart.  Her history as a prosecutor means that she can think on her feet very well.  If she had prepared (again, one of her strong suits) I think she could have done great.

How do you prepare for 3 hours of relaxed shooting the breeze? She seems better in formal situations to me.

You workshop good answers to likely questions (which wouldn't be too hard, Rogan tends to ask similar things to most guests and politically he tends to mention the same thing over and over again over several weeks of interviews).  Other than that, the key I guess would be to act like a normal human being.

Dancin'Dog

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1815 on: November 06, 2024, 12:16:40 PM »
"Record turnout" and Harris still lost every swing state?  Does it even matter at this point what the Dems can learn from this?  Democracy is most likely over for the US. 


The only remaining card that I can see is Biden using the unlimited official power that SCOTUS recently bestowed on him.  Seems a bit far fetched to hope for that...

dividendman

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1816 on: November 06, 2024, 12:18:24 PM »
"Record turnout" and Harris still lost every swing state?  Does it even matter at this point what the Dems can learn from this?  Democracy is most likely over for the US. 


The only remaining card that I can see is Biden using the unlimited official power that SCOTUS recently bestowed on him.  Seems a bit far fetched to hope for that...

Democracy isn't over. The highest turnout ever seems to suggest the opposite.

Ron Scott

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1817 on: November 06, 2024, 12:22:20 PM »
Would have loved to see Whitmer, Beshear, or Shapiro in a real primary.

Having a good number of possibles compete in a primary, to vet them and their pitch in front of live Americans, is a good idea.

Did Hillary have a “real” primary? Methinks not. Bernie performed strongly but there were fingers on the scale.

Harris certainly had no primary in 2024.

It’s all about the party when it should be about America. In fact if the damn parties would allow truly open primaries in which all parties participated together and the top 2 or 3 candidates entered the general election, regardless of party affiliation, we’d all be better off. So what if you have 2 Dems or 2 Rs running in the general election if that’s what the voters decided on. (Of course THAT would mean candidates would be beholden to their constituents instead of the party apparatchiks and no one could twist arms into party-line voting…so how would the national committees suck millions out of fat pockets?)

Why would parties give Americans THAT kind of choice when they can control the game to ensure they’ve got a dog in every race?

Disgusting…

Dancin'Dog

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1818 on: November 06, 2024, 12:23:15 PM »
"Record turnout" and Harris still lost every swing state?  Does it even matter at this point what the Dems can learn from this?  Democracy is most likely over for the US. 


The only remaining card that I can see is Biden using the unlimited official power that SCOTUS recently bestowed on him.  Seems a bit far fetched to hope for that...

Democracy isn't over. The highest turnout ever seems to suggest the opposite.


That was yesterday. 

achvfi

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1819 on: November 06, 2024, 12:28:59 PM »
Virtual hugs to all that wanted Trump to lose. Your trauma is real but life goes on.

I think my original instinct was right. Sexism and racism go way too deep even among demographics nonwhites and immigrants. While Harris ran a good campaign, she had no chance.

Biden running again for president reminds me of Ginsberg. She wanted to stay on supreme court bench even when she was looking like a corpse. Look what she helped extreme right do to women's rights among other law interpretations coming from current court by sticking to the power. She could have let a democratic president find her replacement.

Biden has the look as if life is draining out of him for the last couple years now. It makes no sense to attempt to hold on to power. I guess power is hard to relinquish.

Dems need a strong candidate at this stage, someone that looks the part. Gavin Newsom is my choice. He is male, white, handsome and a proven executive. He will appeal to voters on all sides.

Trump won in 2016 because of a weak candidate, Hillary. He has the same opportunity in 2024 with Biden.

brandon1827

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1820 on: November 06, 2024, 12:30:50 PM »
"Record turnout" and Harris still lost every swing state?  Does it even matter at this point what the Dems can learn from this?  Democracy is most likely over for the US. 


The only remaining card that I can see is Biden using the unlimited official power that SCOTUS recently bestowed on him.  Seems a bit far fetched to hope for that...

Democracy isn't over. The highest turnout ever seems to suggest the opposite.

How was it the highest voter turnout ever when Harris somehow got 15 million fewer votes than Biden, and Trump got 3 million fewer than he got in 2020?

HPstache

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1821 on: November 06, 2024, 12:33:16 PM »
"Record turnout" and Harris still lost every swing state?  Does it even matter at this point what the Dems can learn from this?  Democracy is most likely over for the US. 


The only remaining card that I can see is Biden using the unlimited official power that SCOTUS recently bestowed on him.  Seems a bit far fetched to hope for that...

Democracy isn't over. The highest turnout ever seems to suggest the opposite.

How was it the highest voter turnout ever when Harris somehow got 15 million fewer votes than Biden, and Trump got 3 million fewer than he got in 2020?

You keep saying this, and people have already pointed out that there are probably 10 million votes yet to be counted from WA, OR & CA.

Paper Chaser

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1822 on: November 06, 2024, 12:44:01 PM »
Virtual hugs to all that wanted Trump to lose. Your trauma is real but life goes on.

I think my original instinct was right. Sexism and racism go way too deep even among demographics nonwhites and immigrants. While Harris ran a good campaign, she had no chance.

Biden running again for president reminds me of Ginsberg. She wanted to stay on supreme court bench even when she was looking like a corpse. Look what she helped extreme right do to women's rights among other law interpretations coming from current court by sticking to the power. She could have let a democratic president find her replacement.

Biden has the look as if life is draining out of him for the last couple years now. It makes no sense to attempt to hold on to power. I guess power is hard to relinquish.

Dems need a strong candidate at this stage, someone that looks the part. Gavin Newsom is my choice. He is male, white, handsome and a proven executive. He will appeal to voters on all sides.

Trump won in 2016 because of a weak candidate, Hillary. He has the same opportunity in 2024 with Biden.

Is it sexism and racism, or is it the fact that she was a last minute candidate competing with somebody who has been campaigning for 4 years? Is it sexism and racism, or is it the fact that she was basically the incumbent and sentiment about the economy has been pretty poor?

It's easy to write it off as racism or sexism if you want to blame those who didn't vote for her rather than assign any responsibility to the candidate or her party. Everything I've seen indicates that basically the entire country shifted "right" in this election, from the Presidential race on down. Some Leftist Dems were replaced by more Centric Dems. GOP took control of the Senate. It's not all racism and sexism against Kamala that's impacting those races. Voters clearly have an issue with the Dem's policies and the direction of the country.

Fru-Gal

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1823 on: November 06, 2024, 12:45:08 PM »
All this post-game analysis on how one party was too elitist and out of touch while the other was not. Nope. Money. Prominent billionaires siding with Trump made the difference.

Harris raised more money than Trump.

Finally, I still blame the media. Which is owned by the billionaires who support Trump.

Your kidding, right? Ok, Fox and a few conservative networks, yes. But the media overall is very obviously biased left.


I think you need to recalibrate your sense of the mainstream media.

Here’s a piece from the Guardian that will help.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/sep/06/trump-clinton-harris-election

The Guardian is left biased, and this is an opinion piece. I'm saying this as an independent that reads across the MSM political spectrum and didn't vote for either major candidate: There is very clearly a strong overall left bias.

Regardless, I'm not sure it matters much anymore as the relevance of legacy media continues to decline. For better or worse, most people are now getting their information from alternative sources: X, YouTube, Podcasts, etc. The days of needing reporters to cover campaign speeches are over. Same with relying on the media to get out a candidate's talking points. Whereas unscripted long-form interviews are increasingly important. Love or hate him, Joe Rogan's Trump interview likely had an outsized impact on the election.

As an independent, I want vigorous competition between the parties. That's not going to happen if the Dems keep blaming others and fail to reckon with their own issues. Blaming others doesn't bode well for the future of the party.

You assume that I would be happy with a left-leaning media. Media that is sensationalist, celebrity-focused, advertiser-dictated and devoid of fact-checking does no one any favors. The mass media industrial complex involves ownership of the outlets and the use of press and spokespeople and influencers to seed pre-written stories and propaganda. First amendment freedoms are critical to America’s economic strength and unique among world governments.

The use of media to control political outcomes and rise to the top of the heap in the US is as old as our country, so I’m not blaming a particularly new development.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2024, 12:47:07 PM by Fru-Gal »

brandon1827

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1824 on: November 06, 2024, 12:45:52 PM »
"Record turnout" and Harris still lost every swing state?  Does it even matter at this point what the Dems can learn from this?  Democracy is most likely over for the US. 


The only remaining card that I can see is Biden using the unlimited official power that SCOTUS recently bestowed on him.  Seems a bit far fetched to hope for that...

Democracy isn't over. The highest turnout ever seems to suggest the opposite.

How was it the highest voter turnout ever when Harris somehow got 15 million fewer votes than Biden, and Trump got 3 million fewer than he got in 2020?

You keep saying this, and people have already pointed out that there are probably 10 million votes yet to be counted from WA, OR & CA.

So just 8+ million fewer votes then...when an estimated 20-25 million new registrations were processed for this election. FOH

dividendman

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1825 on: November 06, 2024, 12:54:16 PM »
Virtual hugs to all that wanted Trump to lose. Your trauma is real but life goes on.

I think my original instinct was right. Sexism and racism go way too deep even among demographics nonwhites and immigrants. While Harris ran a good campaign, she had no chance.

Biden running again for president reminds me of Ginsberg. She wanted to stay on supreme court bench even when she was looking like a corpse. Look what she helped extreme right do to women's rights among other law interpretations coming from current court by sticking to the power. She could have let a democratic president find her replacement.

Biden has the look as if life is draining out of him for the last couple years now. It makes no sense to attempt to hold on to power. I guess power is hard to relinquish.

Dems need a strong candidate at this stage, someone that looks the part. Gavin Newsom is my choice. He is male, white, handsome and a proven executive. He will appeal to voters on all sides.

Trump won in 2016 because of a weak candidate, Hillary. He has the same opportunity in 2024 with Biden.

Is it sexism and racism, or is it the fact that she was a last minute candidate competing with somebody who has been campaigning for 4 years? Is it sexism and racism, or is it the fact that she was basically the incumbent and sentiment about the economy has been pretty poor?

It's easy to write it off as racism or sexism if you want to blame those who didn't vote for her rather than assign any responsibility to the candidate or her party. Everything I've seen indicates that basically the entire country shifted "right" in this election, from the Presidential race on down. Some Leftist Dems were replaced by more Centric Dems. GOP took control of the Senate. It's not all racism and sexism against Kamala that's impacting those races. Voters clearly have an issue with the Dem's policies and the direction of the country.

I'll take all of the above for $500 Ken.

bacchi

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1826 on: November 06, 2024, 12:55:45 PM »
Virtual hugs to all that wanted Trump to lose. Your trauma is real but life goes on.

I think my original instinct was right. Sexism and racism go way too deep even among demographics nonwhites and immigrants. While Harris ran a good campaign, she had no chance.

Biden running again for president reminds me of Ginsberg. She wanted to stay on supreme court bench even when she was looking like a corpse. Look what she helped extreme right do to women's rights among other law interpretations coming from current court by sticking to the power. She could have let a democratic president find her replacement.

Biden has the look as if life is draining out of him for the last couple years now. It makes no sense to attempt to hold on to power. I guess power is hard to relinquish.

Dems need a strong candidate at this stage, someone that looks the part. Gavin Newsom is my choice. He is male, white, handsome and a proven executive. He will appeal to voters on all sides.

Trump won in 2016 because of a weak candidate, Hillary. He has the same opportunity in 2024 with Biden.

Is it sexism and racism, or is it the fact that she was a last minute candidate competing with somebody who has been campaigning for 4 years? Is it sexism and racism, or is it the fact that she was basically the incumbent and sentiment about the economy has been pretty poor?

It's easy to write it off as racism or sexism if you want to blame those who didn't vote for her rather than assign any responsibility to the candidate or her party. Everything I've seen indicates that basically the entire country shifted "right" in this election, from the Presidential race on down. Some Leftist Dems were replaced by more Centric Dems. GOP took control of the Senate. It's not all racism and sexism against Kamala that's impacting those races. Voters clearly have an issue with the Dem's policies and the direction of the country.

I'll take all of the above for $500 Ken.

Exactly. One doesn't exclude the other.

achvfi

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1827 on: November 06, 2024, 01:05:09 PM »
Virtual hugs to all that wanted Trump to lose. Your trauma is real but life goes on.

I think my original instinct was right. Sexism and racism go way too deep even among demographics nonwhites and immigrants. While Harris ran a good campaign, she had no chance.

Biden running again for president reminds me of Ginsberg. She wanted to stay on supreme court bench even when she was looking like a corpse. Look what she helped extreme right do to women's rights among other law interpretations coming from current court by sticking to the power. She could have let a democratic president find her replacement.

Biden has the look as if life is draining out of him for the last couple years now. It makes no sense to attempt to hold on to power. I guess power is hard to relinquish.

Dems need a strong candidate at this stage, someone that looks the part. Gavin Newsom is my choice. He is male, white, handsome and a proven executive. He will appeal to voters on all sides.

Trump won in 2016 because of a weak candidate, Hillary. He has the same opportunity in 2024 with Biden.

Is it sexism and racism, or is it the fact that she was a last minute candidate competing with somebody who has been campaigning for 4 years? Is it sexism and racism, or is it the fact that she was basically the incumbent and sentiment about the economy has been pretty poor?

It's easy to write it off as racism or sexism if you want to blame those who didn't vote for her rather than assign any responsibility to the candidate or her party. Everything I've seen indicates that basically the entire country shifted "right" in this election, from the Presidential race on down. Some Leftist Dems were replaced by more Centric Dems. GOP took control of the Senate. It's not all racism and sexism against Kamala that's impacting those races. Voters clearly have an issue with the Dem's policies and the direction of the country.

I am not writing anything off. There are many factors, but sexism and racism is also significant factor especially in close race like this. Among people I know, family and friends even among staunchest of the democrats there is something deep in their psyche that makes them not enthusiastic to vote for woman for president. I do explore this with them but never get any reasonable answer why. I have seen it twice now. These are decent people and quite rational but it's embedded in them.


LennStar

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1828 on: November 06, 2024, 01:24:25 PM »
Let us not forget that the Democratic leaders were so worried about their fascist opponent destroying democracy in America that they ran a feeble old man, propping him up until the open curtains revealed how bad off he was. He is not fit to run another 4 years despite the fact that he “answered all the questions!!!”
Let us not forget that the Republican leaders were so worried about their fascist opponent destroying democracy in America that they ran a feeble old man, propping him up until the open curtains revealed how bad off he was. He is not fit to run another 4 years despite the fact that he “can't answer all the questions!!!”

Quote
Yet a little old lady, Nancy Pelosi, was able to do it when there seemed to be no other choice.
Even Trump can do that misogynie better O.o

Quote
Your kidding, right? Ok, Fox and a few conservative networks, yes. But the media overall is very obviously biased left.
That is what our right extremists say too. Even about "Welt", a freaking catholic newspaper whose most left position is that you should not kill trans people.

LennStar

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1829 on: November 06, 2024, 01:34:40 PM »
"Record turnout" and Harris still lost every swing state?  Does it even matter at this point what the Dems can learn from this?  Democracy is most likely over for the US. 


The only remaining card that I can see is Biden using the unlimited official power that SCOTUS recently bestowed on him.  Seems a bit far fetched to hope for that...

Democracy isn't over. The highest turnout ever seems to suggest the opposite.
I hate to do this again, but Hitler WAS elected in a very high turnout. As is Putin every time.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1830 on: November 06, 2024, 01:37:27 PM »
Virtual hugs to all that wanted Trump to lose. Your trauma is real but life goes on.

I think my original instinct was right. Sexism and racism go way too deep even among demographics nonwhites and immigrants. While Harris ran a good campaign, she had no chance.

Biden running again for president reminds me of Ginsberg. She wanted to stay on supreme court bench even when she was looking like a corpse. Look what she helped extreme right do to women's rights among other law interpretations coming from current court by sticking to the power. She could have let a democratic president find her replacement.

Biden has the look as if life is draining out of him for the last couple years now. It makes no sense to attempt to hold on to power. I guess power is hard to relinquish.

Dems need a strong candidate at this stage, someone that looks the part. Gavin Newsom is my choice. He is male, white, handsome and a proven executive. He will appeal to voters on all sides.

Trump won in 2016 because of a weak candidate, Hillary. He has the same opportunity in 2024 with Biden.

Is it sexism and racism, or is it the fact that she was a last minute candidate competing with somebody who has been campaigning for 4 years? Is it sexism and racism, or is it the fact that she was basically the incumbent and sentiment about the economy has been pretty poor?

It's easy to write it off as racism or sexism if you want to blame those who didn't vote for her rather than assign any responsibility to the candidate or her party. Everything I've seen indicates that basically the entire country shifted "right" in this election, from the Presidential race on down. Some Leftist Dems were replaced by more Centric Dems. GOP took control of the Senate. It's not all racism and sexism against Kamala that's impacting those races. Voters clearly have an issue with the Dem's policies and the direction of the country.

I am not writing anything off. There are many factors, but sexism and racism is also significant factor especially in close race like this. Among people I know, family and friends even among staunchest of the democrats there is something deep in their psyche that makes them not enthusiastic to vote for woman for president. I do explore this with them but never get any reasonable answer why. I have seen it twice now. These are decent people and quite rational but it's embedded in them.
Back to back losses by women running against the most awful Republican candidate in history, offset by a win against the same Republican candidate by an old white man, suggest it may be a long time before the Democrats nominate another woman.

My bet is Republicans are more likely to nominate the next female presidential candidate. They have a deeper bench anyway. Besides, it appears low Democratic turnout in swing states may have doomed Harris, so are the people who voted for Biden in 2020 the sexists?

However, I think other factors are more important, as noted above. If notoriously sexist and machismo Latin American countries like Brazil, Costa Rica, Argentina, Chile, Panama, and Nicaragua can elect women, can we really say Americans are even more sexist than them - too sexist to elect a woman? Eh, I doubt it.

Dems would be smarter to study the lessons I posted above rather than continuing to say the electorate is the problem or getting superstitious about nominating women. It is inescapable that their own political blunders brought us here.

dividendman

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1831 on: November 06, 2024, 01:46:17 PM »
"Record turnout" and Harris still lost every swing state?  Does it even matter at this point what the Dems can learn from this?  Democracy is most likely over for the US. 


The only remaining card that I can see is Biden using the unlimited official power that SCOTUS recently bestowed on him.  Seems a bit far fetched to hope for that...

Democracy isn't over. The highest turnout ever seems to suggest the opposite.
I hate to do this again, but Hitler WAS elected in a very high turnout. As is Putin every time.

Right, but, at least for Putin, the elections are rigged. Also, if you truly believe this, then you should be packing your bags as we speak and high-tailing it out of here before the gas chambers come online.

YttriumNitrate

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1832 on: November 06, 2024, 01:50:33 PM »
I am not writing anything off. There are many factors, but sexism and racism is also significant factor especially in close race like this. Among people I know, family and friends even among staunchest of the democrats there is something deep in their psyche that makes them not enthusiastic to vote for woman for president.
One of the more interesting questions to come out of this past election will probably be why did Trump do so well (relatively) among black voters this time around? He faced a white woman in 2016 and got about 8% of the black vote, in 2020 he got 13% against an old white guy, and it looks like in 2024 he got 20% going against a black woman.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/11/6/us-election-2024-results-how-black-voters-shifted-towards-trump

dandarc

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1833 on: November 06, 2024, 01:55:59 PM »
I am not writing anything off. There are many factors, but sexism and racism is also significant factor especially in close race like this. Among people I know, family and friends even among staunchest of the democrats there is something deep in their psyche that makes them not enthusiastic to vote for woman for president.
One of the more interesting questions to come out of this past election will probably be why did Trump do so well (relatively) among black voters this time around? He faced a white woman in 2016 and got about 8% of the black vote, in 2020 he got 13% against an old white guy, and it looks like in 2024 he got 20% going against a black woman.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/11/6/us-election-2024-results-how-black-voters-shifted-towards-trump
My sister theorized that part of it was because Harris was California's top-cop for a time - that doesn't go over well for a lot of people on the left actually.

Kris

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1834 on: November 06, 2024, 01:59:01 PM »
I am not writing anything off. There are many factors, but sexism and racism is also significant factor especially in close race like this. Among people I know, family and friends even among staunchest of the democrats there is something deep in their psyche that makes them not enthusiastic to vote for woman for president.
One of the more interesting questions to come out of this past election will probably be why did Trump do so well (relatively) among black voters this time around? He faced a white woman in 2016 and got about 8% of the black vote, in 2020 he got 13% against an old white guy, and it looks like in 2024 he got 20% going against a black woman.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/11/6/us-election-2024-results-how-black-voters-shifted-towards-trump

He did well with Black *men*.


wenchsenior

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1835 on: November 06, 2024, 04:16:35 PM »
I am not writing anything off. There are many factors, but sexism and racism is also significant factor especially in close race like this. Among people I know, family and friends even among staunchest of the democrats there is something deep in their psyche that makes them not enthusiastic to vote for woman for president.
One of the more interesting questions to come out of this past election will probably be why did Trump do so well (relatively) among black voters this time around? He faced a white woman in 2016 and got about 8% of the black vote, in 2020 he got 13% against an old white guy, and it looks like in 2024 he got 20% going against a black woman.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/11/6/us-election-2024-results-how-black-voters-shifted-towards-trump

He did well with Black *men*.

All these exit poll based breakdowns should be taken with big grains of salt. It'll be  a few weeks before reliable numbers are out, but yes... it appears that Trump won white women for the third time, and quite a few young men of all races.

GuitarStv

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1836 on: November 06, 2024, 05:57:21 PM »
I am not writing anything off. There are many factors, but sexism and racism is also significant factor especially in close race like this. Among people I know, family and friends even among staunchest of the democrats there is something deep in their psyche that makes them not enthusiastic to vote for woman for president.
One of the more interesting questions to come out of this past election will probably be why did Trump do so well (relatively) among black voters this time around? He faced a white woman in 2016 and got about 8% of the black vote, in 2020 he got 13% against an old white guy, and it looks like in 2024 he got 20% going against a black woman.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/11/6/us-election-2024-results-how-black-voters-shifted-towards-trump

He did well with Black *men*.

All these exit poll based breakdowns should be taken with big grains of salt. It'll be  a few weeks before reliable numbers are out, but yes... it appears that Trump won white women for the third time, and quite a few young men of all races.

I guess you could say he really grabbed their pussies attention.

twinstudy

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1837 on: November 06, 2024, 07:17:23 PM »
Democrats, for all their many problems, do basically operate in good faith, I believe. They do have a floor to what they're willing to do. When a Democrat behaves unethically, usually they're asked to step down by their peers (e.g., most Democratic Senators called on Bob Menendez to resign after his whole gold bar fiasco. That would just never happen in today's Republican Party). So the Democrats really are fighting at a colossal disadvantage. Republicans are playing Streetball rules against Democrats Basketball rules. It's just not a fair game.

I agree with this. It's very hard to win against an opponent who bribes the top end of town and then placates the dumb masses with populism, bread and circuses.

Maybe the Dems could get someone popular like George Clooney to run for President.

There are other ways of achieving goals, but I don't think I can say them aloud in public.

Sailor Sam

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1838 on: November 06, 2024, 07:25:37 PM »
My bet is Republicans are more likely to nominate the next female presidential candidate. They have a deeper bench anyway. Besides, it appears low Democratic turnout in swing states may have doomed Harris, so are the people who voted for Biden in 2020 the sexists?

I agree with you that the Dems have some strong lessons to learn, but I also believe that Harris being a woman did suppress the blue vote. That, along with the Dems who abstained/voted 3rd party/voted for Trump due to Harris’ stance on Israel, certainly affected the outcome for 2024.

Dancin'Dog

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1839 on: November 06, 2024, 07:34:50 PM »
How many states had bomb threats during the elections?  I heard that there were 32 in Georgia.  They were said to be from Russia.  How can the results stand? 

ChpBstrd

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1840 on: November 06, 2024, 08:38:59 PM »
It's looking like the Republican Party will sweep the House and Senate, in addition to controlling the presidency and having stacked the Supreme Court with partisans.

If the House goes R, the United States will be a one-party state. It will be different than 2017-2019 because back then the entire Republican party was not yet loyal to Trump, and the Supreme Court had yet to be fully stacked with party loyalists. Also, Trump now has no incentive to seek re-election. He has complete and utter free reign, and there will be no court or impeachment proceeding that can stop him from doing whatever he wants.

Well, I hope the Dems are proud of themselves.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2024, 08:42:13 PM by ChpBstrd »

rocketpj

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1841 on: November 06, 2024, 09:09:18 PM »
Well, if they are able to do half the things they've expressed the intention of doing, the US reign at the top of the world will be over before long.

I actually wonder if our species has the mental hardware to operate such a large population and country.  Maybe for a couple of centuries, but for the long-term?  Not so far.  Power accretes to the top, then the sociopaths start to circle and find ways to get that power and use it for their own purposes.

If they do half the things they've said they intend to do, then forums like this will be a great place for them to troll for enemies of the state.  I'm not a US resident so I'll be fine, but all I'll say to the US citizens on here is to make sure your dissent is intentional, because the consequences could be dire.

I wish you all the best.  I think it's time for me to stop participating in web forums altogether.  Don't want to end up on any enemies lists.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1842 on: November 06, 2024, 09:27:07 PM »
There has been one little thing that bothers me about the seemingly all good news for Harris/Walz lately, and that is how Musk is quietly in PA (and other battlegrounds I'm sure) doing whatever it is that a Billionaire can do with all that money and technology...  I get this pit in my stomach that Trump is a diversion and Elon Musk is somehow delivering a surprise win on election day, or at least putting a big thumb on the scale.  By the time we see what he did, it'll be too late...

Hopefully I'm wrong, but I can't believe whatever Musk is up to is a complete nothingburger the way it currently seems.  For example, his seemingly illegal voter registration $1M giveaway and paying people to register...  was that really all he's got, and he's just given up now?

I really hope Dems look in to how much Twitter / X influenced people's perception of Trump.  I hardly use the platform, but Musk was running a propaganda video for the glory days of America and Trump in his younger days as the main thing I saw when I used a VPN.  It was a ridiculous video to me, but for some people that are overwhelmed, it probably seemed calming and reassuring.  Democrats really didn't have any counterbalance social media wise...

For a guy that was almost $2B in debt and counting, while facing four criminal trials, this Presidency came at an amazing time.

Trump certainly never seemed like a stronger candidate than he was in 2016.  I just wonder what happened to all the rhetoric about Republicans never forgiving him for January 6th...  How can so many people overlook what a disaster than was, then think we should go down a similar road again?

Also, I hope that Selzer tells us how she managed to be off by 16 points when prior to Iowa she was considered "the best pollster in politics".

I'm sure many people smarter than me are much deeper in the data and forensics for the months of post mortem, but I hope I hear a more full narrative that helps me think better of my fellow Americans and gives me hope for future elections being better than this one.  Right now I feel like it's all disjointed pieces of 'Kamala didn't do X right, Biden should've done Y, Z voters weren't accounted for, etc.  It's honestly not very satisfying.

LaineyAZ

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1843 on: November 07, 2024, 06:16:44 AM »
I hope the Republicans are proud of themselves.

They elected a demented 78 year old convicted felon.  They've campaigned on an anti-science, anti-education platform with promises of yet more tax cuts for billionaires.  The unsustainable $35 Trillion gross federal debt will continue to skyrocket. 
They will cut back on climate change measures and other green environmental regulations.  Civil rights for gay and trans people will not be protected.  Aid to Ukraine will be cut/eliminated letting Russia take over part/all of a sovereign country.  They will authorize splitting of families whose children are natural-born citizens.  Vaccine research is over so god help us all when the next pandemic occurs.  The U.S. economy, as well as the economies of our trading partners, will falter under the tariffs. 

With no checks and balances from either the legislative or judicial branches of government we'll all watch our economy, and a once thriving democracy, continue to crumble. 

I hope the Republicans are proud of themselves.

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1844 on: November 07, 2024, 07:12:04 AM »
I hope the Republicans are proud of themselves.

They elected a demented 78 year old convicted felon.  They've campaigned on an anti-science, anti-education platform with promises of yet more tax cuts for billionaires.  The unsustainable $35 Trillion gross federal debt will continue to skyrocket. 
They will cut back on climate change measures and other green environmental regulations.  Civil rights for gay and trans people will not be protected.  Aid to Ukraine will be cut/eliminated letting Russia take over part/all of a sovereign country.  They will authorize splitting of families whose children are natural-born citizens.  Vaccine research is over so god help us all when the next pandemic occurs.  The U.S. economy, as well as the economies of our trading partners, will falter under the tariffs. 

With no checks and balances from either the legislative or judicial branches of government we'll all watch our economy, and a once thriving democracy, continue to crumble. 

I hope the Republicans are proud of themselves.

Sounds like the OP to the next thread.

the_gastropod

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1845 on: November 07, 2024, 08:07:43 AM »
I just stumbled upon this Financial Times article explaining that in every election tracked by them this year, the incumbent party lost voter share. This goes across the political spectrum: Britain's conservative tories lost voter share, Macron's centrist coalition lost voter share, Japan's liberal democrats, India's Modi, etc.

I think a significant portion of voters, worldwide, basically went "Prices are high. Time to change who's in charge", and that was the beginning and end of their analysis.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2024, 08:14:06 AM by the_gastropod »

achvfi

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1846 on: November 07, 2024, 09:06:26 AM »
I just stumbled upon this Financial Times article explaining that in every election tracked by them this year, the incumbent party lost voter share. This goes across the political spectrum: Britain's conservative tories lost voter share, Macron's centrist coalition lost voter share, Japan's liberal democrats, India's Modi, etc.

I think a significant portion of voters, worldwide, basically went "Prices are high. Time to change who's in charge", and that was the beginning and end of their analysis.

I agree, after 15 years of low to no inflation in US last 2-3 years were a shock to bottom 90% income distribution. This election was an uphill battle any incumbent.

YttriumNitrate

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1847 on: November 07, 2024, 09:25:44 AM »
I agree, after 15 years of low to no inflation in US last 2-3 years were a shock to bottom 90% income distribution. This election was an uphill battle any incumbent.
And it certainly didn't help that inflation hit within just a few months of Biden coming into the White House. While I don't blame him, the timing was brutal.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1848 on: November 07, 2024, 09:50:36 AM »
I agree, after 15 years of low to no inflation in US last 2-3 years were a shock to bottom 90% income distribution. This election was an uphill battle any incumbent.
And it certainly didn't help that inflation hit within just a few months of Biden coming into the White House. While I don't blame him, the timing was brutal.
Exactly why the Dems should take a 100% obstructionist approach for anything that might help the economy. It will only postpone problems to the next term, which could be a Democrat (if the party is still around). You want the crisis to occur toward the end of Trump's watch, not 5 years from now.

What doesn't work is actually fixing the economy. 2024 proved that. Voters don't care if you saved the world, they operate on vibes.

dandarc

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1849 on: November 07, 2024, 10:13:30 AM »
I agree, after 15 years of low to no inflation in US last 2-3 years were a shock to bottom 90% income distribution. This election was an uphill battle any incumbent.
And it certainly didn't help that inflation hit within just a few months of Biden coming into the White House. While I don't blame him, the timing was brutal.
Exactly why the Dems should take a 100% obstructionist approach for anything that might help the economy. It will only postpone problems to the next term, which could be a Democrat (if the party is still around). You want the crisis to occur toward the end of Trump's watch, not 5 years from now.

What doesn't work is actually fixing the economy. 2024 proved that. Voters don't care if you saved the world, they operate on vibes.
I mean, I agree that's likely good strategy. But still - ick.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!