Author Topic: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves  (Read 159848 times)

Sandi_k

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1200 on: October 02, 2024, 09:37:43 AM »
I enjoyed and walked away from the VP debate feeling somewhat good about American politics for once.  Trump has so dominated the Republican party voice that it was refreshing to hear a Republican that didn't just push my buttons non stop than say I had a derangement syndrome...  After banging on my head with a hammer for 8 years, amazing how good it feels when it stops, if only for one night.

Uh huh. Except for the teeny example where JDV said that T had participated in a peaceful transfer of power in 2021.

And when he lashed out at the moderator, saying "I thought you said you weren't going to fact check!" after starting in on Haitian immigrants in Ohio being there illegally.

There are more...but I'll leave it there.

GuitarStv

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1201 on: October 02, 2024, 10:35:40 AM »
I just want to assert that the “deifying of Harris” comment should be entirely dismissed out of hand until some sort of evidence is shown to back it up in any way.

My sense is that we will be waiting for a while.

Does having a shrine in my bathroom count?? Or are human sacrifices requires to prove my devotion to Kamala as my one true God??

I think you have to be sacrificing children in a satanic ritual and then harvesting their blood for adrenochrome to stay young forever.  Y'know.  Standard operating procedure for Democrats.

What about using the "fur babies" of people in springfield instead? Will that work?

Ewww, gross.  Don't be so awful.  Everyone knows that only those evil immigrants eat pets.  I'm going to stick with regular ole children thank you very much.

PeteD01

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1202 on: October 02, 2024, 11:20:41 AM »
I enjoyed and walked away from the VP debate feeling somewhat good about American politics for once.  Trump has so dominated the Republican party voice that it was refreshing to hear a Republican that didn't just push my buttons non stop than say I had a derangement syndrome...  After banging on my head with a hammer for 8 years, amazing how good it feels when it stops, if only for one night.

The thing that really gets under my skin about Vance is the fact that he's perfectly capable of being reasonable and intelligent but has decided to throw his lot in with the nutcases to gain power. He knows better and he's going along with it anyway.

So I don't feel a lot better when he plays nice. That's still the guy who decided it would be in his own interest to join up with the man he once called "America's Hitler."

Agreed. Vance is more than capable of knowing who he's allied with. It's tempting to think he's more reasonable, but I'm not convinced.

Vance is not a moderate, his views are very extreme, he just can speak in coherent sentences in a way that is more disarming. His views are probably more extreme than Trumps. Like in general Trump doesn't care about policy at all, he doesn't care what happens with abortion, like whether it's legal or not, he just gives 0 Fs about any of that stuff. Vance is VERY anti-abortion to the point where he has publicly stated that the role of women is to have children and the role of grandmas is to help look after the grandkids.

It's interesting how "moderate" is used to describe right wing politicians who are able to speak in coherent sentences and in some cases care about upholding democracy. Like the Cheneys, Vance, Kinzinger, Amash, Flake, Bolton etc. These were NOT moderate in their political views, but they don't like Trump or speak like him so they get labelled as a moderate. The window has shifted so far to the right that war criminal Dick Fucking Cheney is a moderate now.

However, Vance seeming reasonable may make look Trump look even worse, and I'm here for the shitshow that'll cause in the Trump campaign!

People are saying that Vance is going to declare Trump unable to fulfill his presidential duties should he win the election.
It wouldn't take much of a conspiracy to get this done under the provisions of the 25th Amendment, and voilà, here is President Vance.

Just a rumor of course - but Trump has increasingly been drawing fire, literally and figuratively, from his own ranks ...

sonofsven

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1203 on: October 02, 2024, 11:25:11 AM »
I enjoyed and walked away from the VP debate feeling somewhat good about American politics for once.  Trump has so dominated the Republican party voice that it was refreshing to hear a Republican that didn't just push my buttons non stop than say I had a derangement syndrome...  After banging on my head with a hammer for 8 years, amazing how good it feels when it stops, if only for one night.

The thing that really gets under my skin about Vance is the fact that he's perfectly capable of being reasonable and intelligent but has decided to throw his lot in with the nutcases to gain power. He knows better and he's going along with it anyway.

So I don't feel a lot better when he plays nice. That's still the guy who decided it would be in his own interest to join up with the man he once called "America's Hitler."

Agreed. Vance is more than capable of knowing who he's allied with. It's tempting to think he's more reasonable, but I'm not convinced.

Vance is not a moderate, his views are very extreme, he just can speak in coherent sentences in a way that is more disarming. His views are probably more extreme than Trumps. Like in general Trump doesn't care about policy at all, he doesn't care what happens with abortion, like whether it's legal or not, he just gives 0 Fs about any of that stuff. Vance is VERY anti-abortion to the point where he has publicly stated that the role of women is to have children and the role of grandmas is to help look after the grandkids.

It's interesting how "moderate" is used to describe right wing politicians who are able to speak in coherent sentences and in some cases care about upholding democracy. Like the Cheneys, Vance, Kinzinger, Amash, Flake, Bolton etc. These were NOT moderate in their political views, but they don't like Trump or speak like him so they get labelled as a moderate. The window has shifted so far to the right that war criminal Dick Fucking Cheney is a moderate now.

However, Vance seeming reasonable may make look Trump look even worse, and I'm here for the shitshow that'll cause in the Trump campaign!

People are saying that Vance is going to declare Trump unable to fulfill his presidential duties should he win the election.
It wouldn't take much of a conspiracy to get this done under the provisions of the 25th Amendment, and voilà, here is President Vance.

Just a rumor of course - but Trump has increasingly been drawing fire, literally and figuratively, from his own ranks ...
And then pull a Ford and hand him a full pardon.

Ron Scott

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1204 on: October 02, 2024, 02:11:06 PM »
I thought the VP debate was…civil. And both candidates moved their rhetoric to the center, which I always like.

2 Liberal Wins: I was actually surprised both candidates seemed to embrace increasing child care support. Even if you think it’s just smoke from the GOP, saying the words counts and indicates how much success the liberal view has had on the subject over time. Also, same theme, JD commented that Trump salvaged Obamacare, which should be counted as another liberal win. Whether you like these programs or not (I had Obamacare for 2 years and DID NOT LIKE the program.) they’ve got staying power.

Finally, under the un-f’ing-believeable category, one of the biggest issues facing the country now—the batshit high national debt—was never a topic of discussion. CBS couldn’t even pose it as a question, so I’d give the candidates better grades than the 2 hosts.


bacchi

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1205 on: October 02, 2024, 02:24:24 PM »
Finally, under the un-f’ing-believeable category, one of the biggest issues facing the country now—the batshit high national debt—was never a topic of discussion. CBS couldn’t even pose it as a question, so I’d give the candidates better grades than the 2 hosts.

There's no answer that would satisfy anyone because any true budget fix has to come from entitlement programs or Defense. Imagine Vance suggesting a 25% cut to Social Security or Walz suggesting a 25% cut in the DoD. And even that isn't enough.

nereo

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1206 on: October 02, 2024, 02:57:33 PM »

Liberal Wins: I was actually surprised both candidates seemed to embrace increasing child care support. Even if you think it’s just smoke from the GOP, saying the words counts and indicates how much success the liberal view has had on the subject over time. Also, same theme, JD commented that Trump salvaged Obamacare, which should be counted as another liberal win. Whether you like these programs or not (I had Obamacare for 2 years and DID NOT LIKE the program.) they’ve got staying power.


The fact that you are describing these as “liberal wins” says as much about how far to the right the GOP has trended in the last decade as it does about the policies themselves. Using tax credits (over federally funding social programs) has been a republican prerogative since the Reagan administration. After all, credits and deductions are easier to subset and/or be designed to benefit only those with earned income. The ACA was modeled in large part after Romney’s universal health care plan while governor. One of the biggest aspects of the ACA is actually Medicare expansion, which while passed under a Democratically controlled legislature in the LBJ administration still the support of the majority of Republicans, making it one of the most bipartisan bills of its size which didn’t involve war funding.


Finally, under the un-f’ing-believeable category, one of the biggest issues facing the country now—the batshit high national debt—was never a topic of discussion.


This does not seem to be a major issue among either party right now or among voters. According to recent Gallop polls non-economic issues are more important to voters than economic ones by a roughly 2:1 margin, and among economic issues the national Debt and deficit are minor concerns, on par with income inequality. COL/inflation is roughly five times more important.

Whether it is indeed one of “the biggest issues” of this decade will only be known in retrospect.

Ron Scott

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1207 on: October 02, 2024, 04:19:59 PM »
Finally, under the un-f’ing-believeable category, one of the biggest issues facing the country now—the batshit high national debt—was never a topic of discussion. CBS couldn’t even pose it as a question, so I’d give the candidates better grades than the 2 hosts.

There's no answer that would satisfy anyone because any true budget fix has to come from entitlement programs or Defense. Imagine Vance suggesting a 25% cut to Social Security or Walz suggesting a 25% cut in the DoD. And even that isn't enough.

True, but these are people who portend to be “leaders”,  yet they’re unimpressive. And even if we gave them the benefits of the doubt and said they lost their balls during the campaign but would fix it once elected, it’s be hard to believe as they seem to ignore it even then.

One of the problems with our 2-party system is a seeming incapacity to address important long-term issues that could make us a “more perfect union” when the public’s attention isn’t riveted on it. Our leaders aren’t even capable of recognizing this as a viable concern.

Anything that criticizes the legitimacy of the 2-party system is off limits for discussion. Even our “journalists” won’t go there. It’s like incest…a last taboo.

PeteD01

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1208 on: October 02, 2024, 05:56:47 PM »
Finally, under the un-f’ing-believeable category, one of the biggest issues facing the country now—the batshit high national debt—was never a topic of discussion. CBS couldn’t even pose it as a question, so I’d give the candidates better grades than the 2 hosts.

There's no answer that would satisfy anyone because any true budget fix has to come from entitlement programs or Defense. Imagine Vance suggesting a 25% cut to Social Security or Walz suggesting a 25% cut in the DoD. And even that isn't enough.

True, but these are people who portend to be “leaders”,  yet they’re unimpressive. And even if we gave them the benefits of the doubt and said they lost their balls during the campaign but would fix it once elected, it’s be hard to believe as they seem to ignore it even then.

One of the problems with our 2-party system is a seeming incapacity to address important long-term issues that could make us a “more perfect union” when the public’s attention isn’t riveted on it. Our leaders aren’t even capable of recognizing this as a viable concern.

Anything that criticizes the legitimacy of the 2-party system is off limits for discussion. Even our “journalists” won’t go there. It’s like incest…a last taboo.

So you are calling the legitimacy of political parties into question.

These are fighting words my friend.

SuperNintendo Chalmers

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1209 on: October 02, 2024, 08:07:36 PM »
I dunno...I think unfortunately that in the relatively small pools of undecided voters in swing states like PA and MI, there are enough who don't like Trump but believe he is better for "pocketbook issues" like inflation/domestic job growth, and JD's "reasonableness" has given them the justification to vote that ticket even in the face of all the steaming shit that comes with it.  Not feeling good about November. 

I always bristled at the "this is the most important election ever!" theme that has been hammered in every presidential campaign for the past 20+ years, because it seemed like it was losing its effectiveness with each turn.  Well, now IMHO this actually IS the most important election ever and we're on the verge of shitting the bed. 

ChpBstrd

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1210 on: October 03, 2024, 07:10:41 AM »
Finally, under the un-f’ing-believeable category, one of the biggest issues facing the country now—the batshit high national debt—was never a topic of discussion. CBS couldn’t even pose it as a question, so I’d give the candidates better grades than the 2 hosts.
There's no answer that would satisfy anyone because any true budget fix has to come from entitlement programs or Defense. Imagine Vance suggesting a 25% cut to Social Security or Walz suggesting a 25% cut in the DoD. And even that isn't enough.
There's also the possibility of resetting tax rates and deleting loopholes to undo 40+ years of reduced taxation. In terms of "would this work to reduce the debt" I think the answer is an obvious yes, and the CBO would agree. However, like so many other solutions we refuse to accept, the straightforward, directly effective solution is politically radioactive.

This does not seem to be a major issue among either party right now or among voters. According to recent Gallop polls non-economic issues are more important to voters than economic ones by a roughly 2:1 margin, and among economic issues the national Debt and deficit are minor concerns, on par with income inequality. COL/inflation is roughly five times more important.

Whether it is indeed one of “the biggest issues” of this decade will only be known in retrospect.
Isn't it weird how people draw NO connection between the tax cuts, tariffs, and helicopter money of a few years ago, and the inflation, jobs, and national debt a few years later? NONE of the causes of anything we are dissatisfied about today wasn't the popular thing to do in the recent past, and you, dear voter, are the one who supported the causes that led to today's effects.

Additionally weird is how poorly informed and incurious people are about economics if it is supposedly their top political concern. In a poll earlier this year, a majority of Americans said they thought the economy was in recession. The GDP report came out with 3% growth shortly thereafter, and corporate earnings knocked everyone's socks off. If you cannot distinguish between some of the fastest economic growth in decades and a recession, then I'll dare to insinuate that economic issues should not be among your top concerns. Either get informed or admit you don't actually care about economics. Saying you care and not being informed are contradictory.

Now we're just voting for slogans like Trump's "I'm gonna fix the economy" or Harris' "Not going back" and your average voter could not define the Federal Funds Rate or describe Monetarism. For fuck's sake if that's all you know please don't even wade into the subject. You're ripe for manipulation, and yes, the politicians are talking down to you.

I have to acknowledge, I have more formal education in economics than 99.5% of the population. Perhaps that makes me an elitist, or perhaps I'm just walking my own talk. But I swear most voters seem to think there's an "economy" button on the president's desk and if they just press that button diligently enough Oprah pops out and gives us all a new car, our boss gives us a raise, and the prices of gasoline and milk go down to a dollar a gallon. We just need to elect somebody who says they'll push that button. That populist mentality is exactly how you get a Nicholas Maduro, a Recep Erdogan, a Vladimir Putin, or a Boris Johnson, or through another lens tens of millions of people with no idea why their standards of living utterly collapsed within a few years.

bacchi

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1211 on: October 03, 2024, 08:32:45 AM »
Anything that criticizes the legitimacy of the 2-party system is off limits for discussion. Even our “journalists” won’t go there. It’s like incest…a last taboo.

Two states, and a few cities, have ranked choice voting. The Republican party is/was actively trying to get rid of it. At least 10 R-controlled states have banned it.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1212 on: October 03, 2024, 08:58:08 AM »
...
I have to acknowledge, I have more formal education in economics than 99.5% of the population. Perhaps that makes me an elitist, or perhaps I'm just walking my own talk. But I swear most voters seem to think there's an "economy" button on the president's desk and if they just press that button diligently enough Oprah pops out and gives us all a new car, our boss gives us a raise, and the prices of gasoline and milk go down to a dollar a gallon. We just need to elect somebody who says they'll push that button. That populist mentality is exactly how you get a Nicholas Maduro, a Recep Erdogan, a Vladimir Putin, or a Boris Johnson, or through another lens tens of millions of people with no idea why their standards of living utterly collapsed within a few years.

Even worse than an elitist in today's climate, that makes you an Expert which means your wrong.  And as soon as you try to explain any complex, nuanced subject in more than one perfect sentence, you've opened yourself to ridicule and derision that there's no way you can actually know what you're talking about.  Then you'll be drowned out in chants and populism.

Take for example the 'drill baby drill' solution and opening ANWR to be a solution for supposedly skyrocketing energy prices...  I work in oil and gas and the constraints on increasing domestic oil production are much more around inflated project costs, decreased competition among suppliers post-Covid, and a lack of young skilled labor.  We already got blasted by Trump tariffs on steel the last time he was in office (added risk and cost to the project) and Trump sounds like this nail is what he plans to hammer on twice as hard the next time around, in the name of increasing production and lowering energy prices!  And ANWR is an order of magnitude harder to design and produce for than the Gulf of Mexico, not to mention the reputational risk (yes, people still know what you mean when you say Exxon Valdez, but are more fuzzy around the Deepwater Horizon)... 

We also have so much domestic gas that much of it gets flared because it's too cheap to transport but the associated natural gas liquids are too valuable to pass up.  Don't even get me started on their plans to open up federal lands for new fracking as a 'good idea'...

RetiredAt63

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1213 on: October 03, 2024, 10:18:54 AM »
When you have a friend who works in wildlife rehab, you definitely remember the Deepwater Horizon.
Or if you were a shrimp fisherman in the area.

But most people have no clue about how anything is produced.  They don't realize that urban life, not rural life, is the "simple life" because they have no idea of how things work.

GuitarStv

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1214 on: October 03, 2024, 11:30:33 AM »
But most people have no clue about how anything is produced.  They don't realize that urban life, not rural life, is the "simple life" because they have no idea of how things work.

Let's not turn this into a 'rural' vs 'urban' hate fest.

People in urban areas often have little understanding of where the things they buy come from, and are more likely to be divorced from the environment.  Conversely, people in rural areas often have little understanding of the truly massive subsidies that allow them to live remotely for far below the true costs that would otherwise have to be levied, and are more likely to be divorced from the economic reality of their situation.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1215 on: October 03, 2024, 01:23:29 PM »
But most people have no clue about how anything is produced.  They don't realize that urban life, not rural life, is the "simple life" because they have no idea of how things work.

Let's not turn this into a 'rural' vs 'urban' hate fest.

People in urban areas often have little understanding of where the things they buy come from, and are more likely to be divorced from the environment.  Conversely, people in rural areas often have little understanding of the truly massive subsidies that allow them to live remotely for far below the true costs that would otherwise have to be levied, and are more likely to be divorced from the economic reality of their situation.

Wasn't intending to, I've lived both.  It was more just that EscapeVelocity2020 made the point that generally people don't understand the ins and outs of oil/gas, and I was expanding that to most people are divorced from how any supply chain works.  Nothing to do with subsidies.  But rural means you know where your water comes from and sewage goes to, for example, a lot more specifically than urban dwellers.  And not here, but people don't think about food supply either, food comes from the grocery store.  In rural areas you may end up with limited internet access because no one will run a cable, you have to have a tower or nothing.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1216 on: October 03, 2024, 01:56:57 PM »
Here's a fun but sympathetic comparison of undecided voters to the hassled, overscheduled, and under-rested college students who don't do the reading for freshman English.

https://slate.com/life/2024/10/undecided-voters-2024-election-trump-harris.html

The analogy makes me think about how the radical simplification of life that is Mustachianism could be the answer if enough people adopted it, and how the radical complication of life that is consumerism leaves us in a weakened state, unable to be informed enough to be confident in our opinions. That's my lens of course.

sonofsven

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1217 on: October 03, 2024, 05:17:33 PM »
Here's a fun but sympathetic comparison of undecided voters to the hassled, overscheduled, and under-rested college students who don't do the reading for freshman English.

https://slate.com/life/2024/10/undecided-voters-2024-election-trump-harris.html

The analogy makes me think about how the radical simplification of life that is Mustachianism could be the answer if enough people adopted it, and how the radical complication of life that is consumerism leaves us in a weakened state, unable to be informed enough to be confident in our opinions. That's my lens of course.

Unfortunately, the uninformed always seem to be the most confident in their opinions.

LennStar

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1218 on: October 04, 2024, 03:36:40 AM »
Here's a fun but sympathetic comparison of undecided voters to the hassled, overscheduled, and under-rested college students who don't do the reading for freshman English.

https://slate.com/life/2024/10/undecided-voters-2024-election-trump-harris.html

The analogy makes me think about how the radical simplification of life that is Mustachianism could be the answer if enough people adopted it, and how the radical complication of life that is consumerism leaves us in a weakened state, unable to be informed enough to be confident in our opinions. That's my lens of course.

Unfortunately, the uninformed always seem to be the most confident in their opinions.


The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.

Bertrand Russell

Metalcat

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1219 on: October 04, 2024, 05:30:32 AM »
Here's a fun but sympathetic comparison of undecided voters to the hassled, overscheduled, and under-rested college students who don't do the reading for freshman English.

https://slate.com/life/2024/10/undecided-voters-2024-election-trump-harris.html

The analogy makes me think about how the radical simplification of life that is Mustachianism could be the answer if enough people adopted it, and how the radical complication of life that is consumerism leaves us in a weakened state, unable to be informed enough to be confident in our opinions. That's my lens of course.

Unfortunately, the uninformed always seem to be the most confident in their opinions.

There's good reason for this.

Most things in the world are intensely complicated and nuanced. Not understanding the depth of complexity of an issue is what allows things to ostensibly "make sense."

The less one knows about a topic, the more obvious the topic seems because the underlying complexity is opaque. When things make sense, the solutions appear obvious and "logical."

I remember being much, much younger and thinking that an O&G supply chain setup in Canada was so stupid. It seemed so obvious that the reason for the bizarre supply chain was political, and the politicians definitely leaned into this easy to understand narrative.

It was only years later talking to O&G folks that I actually understood the complexities of the refinement process, pipelines, and why it wasn't as simple as seemed to me.

Virtually everything in this world has incredibly complicated, multi-layered reasons for being the way it is, and the ripple effects of change are actually incredibly difficult to predict.

But when you don't see those underlayers, everything makes so much more sense and solutions seem so much more obvious. Hence the arrogance that comes with ignorance.

It's very attractive to feel like you can see an obvious answer and the rest of the world is just too stupid and corrupt to see or accept it.

If you can see an obvious solution to a very important issue, what would you prefer? Feeling smart or assuming that you're just too ignorant to understand why it's not that simple??

The former is much more appealing.

The process of learning is an extremely humbling experience, it's just layer after layer of seeing how ignorant you used to be, and with a near infinite amount of nuance in this world, it also means slowly accepting that you will never have enough context to not be ignorant.

It's hard to accept ignorance, so it's hard to accept the reality that if something seems obvious to you, it probably means you're kind of dumb on that topic, not smarter than everyone else.

And we have political machines that know that, they can the flames of ignorant outrage framing the other side as the *reason* why obvious, common sense solutions aren't being pursued. Because again, that simple explanation makes a lot of sense on the surface.

This is why social issues get more political traction than economic issues because economic issues are actually REALLY complex and the policies that address them are nowhere near simple in terms of understanding their impacts. Social issues can be distilled down into simpler, more discretely actionable concepts.

When someone feels really confident that they know better, seeking out info to challenge themselves and complicate things is both laborious and uncomfortable, especially when there's always someone out there to provide them with a tidy narrative about how they are, in fact, right, and smarter than the other guys.

Who doesn't want to feel smart??

There's nothing like absorbing new information to make you feel stupid. Lol.

partgypsy

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1220 on: October 04, 2024, 06:10:12 AM »
True. I remember talking to one of my friends in HS who was truly brilliant, and compliment me. And I confessed, people think i'm smart but I don't feel smart. In fact the more I learn the stupidter I feel. And he said, actually that feeling is a sign of smartness partgypsy. And then went off about a field of math that concerned itself with things that could be known, and not known as an analogy. Knowing what you know is important. But also understanding what you don't know, and can never know are AS important activities. Now I could then make a point that while intellectually and by analogy men may understand what it's like to say, be forced to bear an unwanted pregnancy to term there are some ways they will never know or understand because they will never be put in that situation. It's OK to have humility. And to say you don't know. And to maybe sit down and listen.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2024, 06:20:24 AM by partgypsy »

nereo

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1221 on: October 04, 2024, 07:45:19 AM »

The process of learning is an extremely humbling experience, it's just layer after layer of seeing how ignorant you used to be, and with a near infinite amount of nuance in this world, it also means slowly accepting that you will never have enough context to not be ignorant.



There's nothing like absorbing new information to make you feel stupid. Lol.

Veering slightly OT, but I’m in STEM, and one topic that seems to come up now and again from younger students is whether it’s better to be a scientist now, when (the assumption is) so many major discoveries have already been made, or during the so-called scientific enlightenment when Newton and Locke and Galileo etc were making discoveries that underpin our current understanding and institutions and seem almost “obvious” now (eg Newtons laws of motion are covered in most HS sience curriculum.).
The reality is - there’s far more left to be discovered now than has been discovered, and an amazing amount of our everyday we simply don’t understand the underlying mechanisms. As one example, for most vitamins and micronutrients we have absolutely no idea how they actually work. We know deficiencies cause certain ailments and that have a vague idea of the organs impacted, but where those modules, which can be measured in picograms, actually interact within cells or how they are regulated is an utter mystery. Tylenol isn’t much different.

The second question I’ve gotten a lot is “what is it like to be a PhD /Post-doc /adjunct professor that’s evidently an “expert” in my very small slice of a very big field. One response is: “you have to bdd ed comfortable with frequently being the dumbest person in the room”. People who can’t accept how much they don’t know about the subject they are a “leading expert” on simply fall victim to a wide array of biased, and they can’t see or understand their mistakes.

GuitarStv

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1222 on: October 04, 2024, 07:52:27 AM »

The process of learning is an extremely humbling experience, it's just layer after layer of seeing how ignorant you used to be, and with a near infinite amount of nuance in this world, it also means slowly accepting that you will never have enough context to not be ignorant.



There's nothing like absorbing new information to make you feel stupid. Lol.

Veering slightly OT, but I’m in STEM, and one topic that seems to come up now and again from younger students is whether it’s better to be a scientist now, when (the assumption is) so many major discoveries have already been made, or during the so-called scientific enlightenment when Newton and Locke and Galileo etc were making discoveries that underpin our current understanding and institutions and seem almost “obvious” now (eg Newtons laws of motion are covered in most HS sience curriculum.).
The reality is - there’s far more left to be discovered now than has been discovered, and an amazing amount of our everyday we simply don’t understand the underlying mechanisms. As one example, for most vitamins and micronutrients we have absolutely no idea how they actually work. We know deficiencies cause certain ailments and that have a vague idea of the organs impacted, but where those modules, which can be measured in picograms, actually interact within cells or how they are regulated is an utter mystery. Tylenol isn’t much different.

The second question I’ve gotten a lot is “what is it like to be a PhD /Post-doc /adjunct professor that’s evidently an “expert” in my very small slice of a very big field. One response is: “you have to bdd ed comfortable with frequently being the dumbest person in the room”. People who can’t accept how much they don’t know about the subject they are a “leading expert” on simply fall victim to a wide array of biased, and they can’t see or understand their mistakes.

I think it's more the observation that the nature of discovery has changed pretty significantly.  There seems to be far less of the driven person puttering around in his/her garage and discovering X-rays, insulin, or nylon.  Most of the modern discoveries seem to be larger groups and teams working on subtle problems to extend relatively obscure fields.  I dunno, maybe I'm way off base but that seems to be true of the majority of the research I was seeing in univerity.

Luke Warm

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1223 on: October 04, 2024, 08:37:13 AM »
Here's a fun but sympathetic comparison of undecided voters to the hassled, overscheduled, and under-rested college students who don't do the reading for freshman English.

https://slate.com/life/2024/10/undecided-voters-2024-election-trump-harris.html

The analogy makes me think about how the radical simplification of life that is Mustachianism could be the answer if enough people adopted it, and how the radical complication of life that is consumerism leaves us in a weakened state, unable to be informed enough to be confident in our opinions. That's my lens of course.

Unfortunately, the uninformed always seem to be the most confident in their opinions.

There's good reason for this.

Most things in the world are intensely complicated and nuanced. Not understanding the depth of complexity of an issue is what allows things to ostensibly "make sense."

The less one knows about a topic, the more obvious the topic seems because the underlying complexity is opaque. When things make sense, the solutions appear obvious and "logical."

I remember being much, much younger and thinking that an O&G supply chain setup in Canada was so stupid. It seemed so obvious that the reason for the bizarre supply chain was political, and the politicians definitely leaned into this easy to understand narrative.

It was only years later talking to O&G folks that I actually understood the complexities of the refinement process, pipelines, and why it wasn't as simple as seemed to me.

Virtually everything in this world has incredibly complicated, multi-layered reasons for being the way it is, and the ripple effects of change are actually incredibly difficult to predict.

But when you don't see those underlayers, everything makes so much more sense and solutions seem so much more obvious. Hence the arrogance that comes with ignorance.

It's very attractive to feel like you can see an obvious answer and the rest of the world is just too stupid and corrupt to see or accept it.

If you can see an obvious solution to a very important issue, what would you prefer? Feeling smart or assuming that you're just too ignorant to understand why it's not that simple??

The former is much more appealing.

The process of learning is an extremely humbling experience, it's just layer after layer of seeing how ignorant you used to be, and with a near infinite amount of nuance in this world, it also means slowly accepting that you will never have enough context to not be ignorant.

It's hard to accept ignorance, so it's hard to accept the reality that if something seems obvious to you, it probably means you're kind of dumb on that topic, not smarter than everyone else.

And we have political machines that know that, they can the flames of ignorant outrage framing the other side as the *reason* why obvious, common sense solutions aren't being pursued. Because again, that simple explanation makes a lot of sense on the surface.

This is why social issues get more political traction than economic issues because economic issues are actually REALLY complex and the policies that address them are nowhere near simple in terms of understanding their impacts. Social issues can be distilled down into simpler, more discretely actionable concepts.

When someone feels really confident that they know better, seeking out info to challenge themselves and complicate things is both laborious and uncomfortable, especially when there's always someone out there to provide them with a tidy narrative about how they are, in fact, right, and smarter than the other guys.

Who doesn't want to feel smart??

There's nothing like absorbing new information to make you feel stupid. Lol.

There is so much information to process and the issues are so complex that maybe less than 1% of the population can even begin to make logical and informed choices. And even those people are going to disagree with each other.

nereo

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1224 on: October 04, 2024, 08:37:29 AM »

I think it's more the observation that the nature of discovery has changed pretty significantly.  There seems to be far less of the driven person puttering around in his/her garage and discovering X-rays, insulin, or nylon.  Most of the modern discoveries seem to be larger groups and teams working on subtle problems to extend relatively obscure fields.  I dunno, maybe I'm way off base but that seems to be true of the majority of the research I was seeing in univerity.

Because your frame of reference was university. . Yes, there a ton of stuff done by larger collaborative teams of labs working within the R1 system. But there’s still significant progress (and in some instances MORE) being made by individuals and industry and the like, particularly with projects that require very long timeframes (several years to several decades).
A known weakness of the university system is the duration of grant funded projects, which are typically 18-36 months, with a few months on both ends eaten up by recruiting students/techs and publishing results. There are a few pathways for 5 and even 10 year projects through agencies like NSERC, NSF and NIH, but those are exceptions and a minimum of projects and funding.

Individuals and private companies don’t have such constraints, and can work on longer term projects ( particularly with an obvious economic benefit). In fields like botany and genetics a lot of the discoveries have occurred only after systematic strain selection, for example

Greystache

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1225 on: October 04, 2024, 08:48:54 AM »
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.

H. L. Mencken

Metalcat

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1226 on: October 04, 2024, 09:02:04 AM »


There is so much information to process and the issues are so complex that maybe less than 1% of the population can even begin to make logical and informed choices. And even those people are going to disagree with each other.

Yeah, but my point was that accepting that is very uncomfortable compared to believing that everything makes sense and everyone else is just dumber/corrupt/crazy/all of the above.

When things make a lot of "logical" sense, why would people assume that nothing they "know" is actually real, and just a very simplified abstraction of reality. That's terrifying!

ChpBstrd

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1227 on: October 04, 2024, 01:05:01 PM »
There is so much information to process and the issues are so complex that maybe less than 1% of the population can even begin to make logical and informed choices. And even those people are going to disagree with each other.
Yeah, but my point was that accepting that is very uncomfortable compared to believing that everything makes sense and everyone else is just dumber/corrupt/crazy/all of the above.

When things make a lot of "logical" sense, why would people assume that nothing they "know" is actually real, and just a very simplified abstraction of reality. That's terrifying!
If we're incapable of comprehending complex topics and make informed judgments, then that's an argument against democracy. We would need some elites to make better decisions on our behalf, and the system would have to require that we not be able to overthrow these elites when their decisions conflicted with our feelings about truth.

If it's very uncomfortable to put in the work required to make informed judgments, then maybe that's an argument that people will only make high-quality choices when they are more motivated to do so. E.g. people would start to care about economics during a recession, or agriculture during a famine. The evidence I see contradicts this hypothesis. If anything, we rely more on heuristics and simplistic answers like blaming each other when the going gets tough.

GuitarStv

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1228 on: October 04, 2024, 01:08:24 PM »
There is so much information to process and the issues are so complex that maybe less than 1% of the population can even begin to make logical and informed choices. And even those people are going to disagree with each other.
Yeah, but my point was that accepting that is very uncomfortable compared to believing that everything makes sense and everyone else is just dumber/corrupt/crazy/all of the above.

When things make a lot of "logical" sense, why would people assume that nothing they "know" is actually real, and just a very simplified abstraction of reality. That's terrifying!
If we're incapable of comprehending complex topics and make informed judgments, then that's an argument against democracy. We would need some elites to make better decisions on our behalf, and the system would have to require that we not be able to overthrow these elites when their decisions conflicted with our feelings about truth.

If it's very uncomfortable to put in the work required to make informed judgments, then maybe that's an argument that people will only make high-quality choices when they are more motivated to do so. E.g. people would start to care about economics during a recession, or agriculture during a famine. The evidence I see contradicts this hypothesis. If anything, we rely more on heuristics and simplistic answers like blaming each other when the going gets tough.

We don't have democracy though.  Not direct democracy.  The whole idea behind our systems of government are to allow elites with more specialized knowledge to make decisions over what's going to be best for us.  We just keep the democracy part to overthrow the elites if they get really out of hand.  Or at least that's teh general idea . . . but since most of us aren't able to tell if things are really out of hand we're where we're at right now.

Metalcat

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1229 on: October 04, 2024, 04:39:10 PM »
There is so much information to process and the issues are so complex that maybe less than 1% of the population can even begin to make logical and informed choices. And even those people are going to disagree with each other.
Yeah, but my point was that accepting that is very uncomfortable compared to believing that everything makes sense and everyone else is just dumber/corrupt/crazy/all of the above.

When things make a lot of "logical" sense, why would people assume that nothing they "know" is actually real, and just a very simplified abstraction of reality. That's terrifying!
If we're incapable of comprehending complex topics and make informed judgments, then that's an argument against democracy. We would need some elites to make better decisions on our behalf, and the system would have to require that we not be able to overthrow these elites when their decisions conflicted with our feelings about truth.

If it's very uncomfortable to put in the work required to make informed judgments, then maybe that's an argument that people will only make high-quality choices when they are more motivated to do so. E.g. people would start to care about economics during a recession, or agriculture during a famine. The evidence I see contradicts this hypothesis. If anything, we rely more on heuristics and simplistic answers like blaming each other when the going gets tough.

The jump from "It's uncomfortable/difficult to make informed decisions" to "People will still put in that effort when things get tough" is the flaw in your thinking here, imo.

People rely on the heuristics all the time, but going "Wait, this is a tough situation that may require more than just heuristics" would require them to recognize that they were relying on heuristics in the first place. Which most people don't acknowledge.

Am I reading wrong or are you reading wrong, because I thought he said exactly what you are saying...???

I'm dyslexic though, so I can get lost in multiple quotes...

Metalcat

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1230 on: October 04, 2024, 07:22:45 PM »
This is the specific bit I am referring to:

If it's very uncomfortable to put in the work required to make informed judgments, then maybe that's an argument that people will only make high-quality choices when they are more motivated to do so. E.g. people would start to care about economics during a recession, or agriculture during a famine. The evidence I see contradicts this hypothesis. If anything, we rely more on heuristics and simplistic answers like blaming each other when the going gets tough.

My understanding of his statement = if making informed decisions is merely uncomfortable/hard, then we would expect people to still resort to doing it when sufficiently motivated. For example, people would start making better-informed decisions during crises. This does not seem to match reality, therefore (implied) the premise must be wrong.

My response = you have made a logical error in assuming the people REALIZE they are making simplistic decisions and can choose an alternative when motivated.

If I've misunderstood your point, @ChpBstrd, please do feel free to correct me.

He's not saying that's his hypothesis though, he's saying that you might think that people would behave that way but all of the evidence says they don't.

From what I've read, having read it many times now to see if I'm losing my mind, he actually said literally exactly what you said in response to him.

Unless I have lost my mind. Please someone else weigh in because I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

reeshau

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1231 on: October 05, 2024, 03:32:07 AM »
The evidence I see contradicts this hypothesis. If anything, we rely more on heuristics and simplistic answers like blaming each other when the going gets tough.

This is basically the topic of Daniel Kahneman's Thinking Fast and Slow.  All the ways that we are biased because we take simplifying shortcuts vs. considering all the decisions we make around us.  There are good evolutionary reasons for it; if you had to consider your way through traffic, you would be too paralyzed to actually move.  But when things are more involved and abstract, those action-oriented instincts can lead us astray.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1232 on: October 05, 2024, 09:11:38 AM »
I'm no 'expert', but this backlash against experts seems to have come with the rise of social media's influence on culture.  Just when we need experts the most (climate change, disinformation overload, inflation, pandemic, AI...), we have a resurgence of populism and backlash against the influence of experts.  Most recently, it was the Supreme Court overturning of Chevron Deference.  If given the opportunity, Trump will be more than happy to disband many Federal Agencies and repeal all the regulations he can.  Leaving complex, long range decision making to populism, authoritarianism, and capitalism is a recipe for disaster ...  but what do I know.

Daughter of Rudy Giuliani describes ‘watching her dads life crumble’ because of Donald Trump - Caroline Giuliani makes the chilling point that 'the kind of damage Trump could inflict the second time around might not be reversible ... he will change the fabric of our institutions, and that is something we may not be able to come back from.'

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1233 on: October 05, 2024, 11:46:39 AM »
There is so much information to process and the issues are so complex that maybe less than 1% of the population can even begin to make logical and informed choices. And even those people are going to disagree with each other.
.... everyone else is just dumber/corrupt/crazy/all of the above.

When things make a lot of "logical" sense, why would people assume that nothing they "know" is actually real, and just a very simplified abstraction of reality. That's terrifying!
If we're incapable of comprehending complex topics and make informed judgments, then that's an argument against democracy. We would need some elites to make better decisions on our behalf, and the system would have to require that we not be able to overthrow these elites when their decisions conflicted with our feelings about truth.
Coal miners voted against Democrats in 2016 owing to their jobs being threatened.  No complex understanding required - they voted in their own self-interest.  That is still democracy, even without complexity.

Each Presidential candidate is making claims about the economy, which is a complex topic where I see plenty of lying by politicians.  If they want to emphasize greed, they point to corporate profits (but not profit percentage).  If they want to blame government stimulus, they ignore supply chain problems, and so on.  I'm reminded of that famous James Carville quote "It's the economy, stupid."  Followed by "are you better off now than 4 years ago?".  That's how most people vote on the economy - their personal circumstances.  As a group, that can work.  Again, not complexity, but voting in their own self-interest.

I should come up with a better term than "self-interest", because the term is so abused currently.  Democrats talk about jobs and self interest of people in rural areas, ignoring their religious convictions.  If you threaten to transition the child of an evangelist, that can become more important than job gains.  Each person determines their own self-interest.

People definitely can't handle complexity, but they can vote in their own self-interest as they see it.  To me, that is still democracy.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2024, 11:48:12 AM by MustacheAndaHalf »

wenchsenior

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1234 on: October 05, 2024, 12:33:22 PM »
I'm no 'expert', but this backlash against experts seems to have come with the rise of social media's influence on culture. Just when we need experts the most (climate change, disinformation overload, inflation, pandemic, AI...), we have a resurgence of populism and backlash against the influence of experts.  Most recently, it was the Supreme Court overturning of Chevron Deference.  If given the opportunity, Trump will be more than happy to disband many Federal Agencies and repeal all the regulations he can.  Leaving complex, long range decision making to populism, authoritarianism, and capitalism is a recipe for disaster ...  but what do I know.

Daughter of Rudy Giuliani describes ‘watching her dads life crumble’ because of Donald Trump - Caroline Giuliani makes the chilling point that 'the kind of damage Trump could inflict the second time around might not be reversible ... he will change the fabric of our institutions, and that is something we may not be able to come back from.'

Might be amplified now, but anti-intellectualism/rebelling against and discounting expertise is actually a powerful, longstanding element of U.S. politics and social fabric. I read a fascinating book about it years ago:

https://www.amazon.com/Age-American-Unreason-Susan-Jacoby/dp/1400096383

nereo

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1235 on: October 05, 2024, 06:24:09 PM »
I'm no 'expert', but this backlash against experts seems to have come with the rise of social media's influence on culture. Just when we need experts the most (climate change, disinformation overload, inflation, pandemic, AI...), we have a resurgence of populism and backlash against the influence of experts.  Most recently, it was the Supreme Court overturning of Chevron Deference.  If given the opportunity, Trump will be more than happy to disband many Federal Agencies and repeal all the regulations he can.  Leaving complex, long range decision making to populism, authoritarianism, and capitalism is a recipe for disaster ...  but what do I know.

Daughter of Rudy Giuliani describes ‘watching her dads life crumble’ because of Donald Trump - Caroline Giuliani makes the chilling point that 'the kind of damage Trump could inflict the second time around might not be reversible ... he will change the fabric of our institutions, and that is something we may not be able to come back from.'

Might be amplified now, but anti-intellectualism/rebelling against and discounting expertise is actually a powerful, longstanding element of U.S. politics and social fabric. I read a fascinating book about it years ago:

https://www.amazon.com/Age-American-Unreason-Susan-Jacoby/dp/1400096383

Agreed. Social media may have accelerated/amplified the distrust of experts, but it’s been a part of the political fabric and discourse for much, much longer. Reagan made distrusting the role of the civil service part of his stump speeches (“… scariest words in the English language are ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help’”).
Even before then, the tobacco industry infamously sewed doubt about the expert consensus on the dangers of smoking, hiring enough ‘experts’ of their own to infuse doubt while simultaneously saying they wanted time to thoroughly “study the issue”. It was a playbook that was repeated page-for-page by the fossil fuel industry to address climate change, which the scientific community understood as a major threat even in the 1960s.

LaineyAZ

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1236 on: October 05, 2024, 07:40:13 PM »
Even before Susan Jacoby's book, there was the book by Richard Hofstadter, "Anti-Intellectualism in American Life."
Won the Pulitzer prize for general Non-fiction in 1964.

It's so discouraging that this continues to be a prevailing theme in our modern culture.


ChpBstrd

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1237 on: October 05, 2024, 09:33:17 PM »
This is the specific bit I am referring to:

If it's very uncomfortable to put in the work required to make informed judgments, then maybe that's an argument that people will only make high-quality choices when they are more motivated to do so. E.g. people would start to care about economics during a recession, or agriculture during a famine. The evidence I see contradicts this hypothesis. If anything, we rely more on heuristics and simplistic answers like blaming each other when the going gets tough.

My understanding of his statement = if making informed decisions is merely uncomfortable/hard, then we would expect people to still resort to doing it when sufficiently motivated. For example, people would start making better-informed decisions during crises. This does not seem to match reality, therefore (implied) the premise must be wrong.

My response = you have made a logical error in assuming the people REALIZE they are making simplistic decisions and can choose an alternative when motivated.

If I've misunderstood your point, @ChpBstrd, please do feel free to correct me.
I was bringing up issues related to the two statements brought up earlier, without necessarily proposing an alternative:

(1) @Luke Warm's statement the vast majority of people are incapable of making "logical and informed" decision, and
(2) @Metalcat's statement that thinking hard, handling complexity, and arriving at better quality conclusions is more difficult than simply relying on heuristics and biases, yet can still be done (I may be over-summarizing here).

As @reeshau notes that second point is consistent with psychological research about "fast" and "slow" thinking, and how we only resort to the slower, more deliberative style of thinking when we have to. I.e. when we're motivated to spend the mental energy.

It seemed to me like voters who say they have a lot at stake and care a lot about political outcomes are nonetheless behaving as if the issues of the world aren't worth the expenditure of much mental energy. They are passionate, but not passionate enough to be informed, to study underlying issues, or to engage in an analysis that goes beyond tribalism and empty-minded political slogans.

@Tasse made the point that people might not realize they are operating on the most shallow level of thought and are therefore never in a position to say "maybe I should gather some more information on this subject". The psychologists proposing "fast" and "slow" modes of thinking, like Kahneman, do not generally require us to be aware of what we're doing in order to engage level 2 thinking resources. Rather, deeper processing is triggered by motivation or unexpected confounding information. Still, @Tasse might be onto an interesting possible explanation for the paradox of motivated voters who cannot muster cognitive effort.

Maybe the abstract political concepts we argue about such as the cause of budget deficits, what foreign policy choices will deliver the best outcomes, or whether climate change is a bigger priority than economic concerns are so divorced from being immediately consequential to our lives that they are processed with the shortcuts of biases, heuristics, slogans, and tribal affiliation.

It is possible to be deeply concerned about climate change, for example, but to spend more mental energy thinking about what recipe to cook for dinner each night. The former is an abstract, distant issue while the latter will have an immediate effect on one's life and absolutely must be managed now. And so a person can be expected to analyze recipes carefully, rather than reading journal articles about renewable energy or the pros and cons of natural gas as a replacement for coal.

Yet macro / political issues have a way of affecting our lives more than the immediate stuff we apply our time and brainpower to understanding. When we apply all our mental energy to immediately-applicable topics and use "fast" thinking processes to cast votes, we can collectively put ourselves in situations more overwhelmingly problematic than any of the problems we actually spent our mental energy on.

The best dinner recipe is no longer the problem engaging people's minds in Venezuela, where voters' choices have led to such deep poverty that the new question is how not to starve. Voters in Turkyie elected leadership for religious-tribal reasons, and those leaders' economic policies led to the rapid collapse of their currency's value. Voters for Brexit found the slogans emotionally appealing and are now watching their quality of life decline as their financial and export sectors whither, just as the analytical types warned would happen. Many voters who liked Putin's image in Russia have received notice that their sons have been killed fighting a war of vanity in Ukraine.

Again and again, 21st century voters are making choices that demolish their quality of life, cede their own freedom, or lead to instability. In theory, they should have been motivated to become fluent in the technical topics of governance, geopolitics, history, economics, epidemiology, or military affairs, but they did not. If anything, elections in recently troubled places are more about low-brow word games and identity politics than they were before.

Now hundreds of millions of people around the world are suffering the consequences of their votes, after applying more cognitive effort to resolving issues in their careers or in fixing their cars than in voting against the clowns that crushed their entire economies.

Perhaps people systematically underestimate the importance of the political process to their long-term well-being? Perhaps the difference made by each individual voter is so small that it doesn't justify an investment of cognitive resources by each individual voter (e.g. one vote out of millions versus what's for dinner tonight).

IDK but I'd like to get to the bottom of it. Not so much because it would help me vote better, but because there are lots of benefits to being the analytically motivated person when no one else is putting in the effort. E.g. If President Trump reduces central bank independence in the U.S, I would invest in anticipation of higher inflation, such as by avoiding or shorting long-duration bonds and banks. E.g.#2 if it looks like U.S. democracy is collapsing, I'd hopefully emigrate before things got too bad, rather than ending up trapped like the impoverished serfs of Venezuela or Russia.

The macro picture may be mostly outside my circle of control, but making the right life decisions definitely requires being in alignment with what's happening, and to do that one has to be engaged in what's going on, and aware of a lot of information. It is a mystery to me how so many people are engaged in the small stuff and largely disregard the big stuff.

twinstudy

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1238 on: October 05, 2024, 09:47:37 PM »
As long as I am making decisions which benefit my life, it does not matter to me that others are making decisions that don't benefit themselves.

And while climate change is not a great thing, I doubt that on an individual scale it is going to lead to me dying or being hugely inconvenienced. So if others want to be climate sceptics, I let them. I'm not the one who's going to get washed away or roasted to death. Maybe they are. It's a matter for them.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1239 on: October 05, 2024, 09:51:52 PM »
I'm no 'expert', but this backlash against experts seems to have come with the rise of social media's influence on culture. Just when we need experts the most (climate change, disinformation overload, inflation, pandemic, AI...), we have a resurgence of populism and backlash against the influence of experts.  Most recently, it was the Supreme Court overturning of Chevron Deference.  If given the opportunity, Trump will be more than happy to disband many Federal Agencies and repeal all the regulations he can.  Leaving complex, long range decision making to populism, authoritarianism, and capitalism is a recipe for disaster ...  but what do I know.

Daughter of Rudy Giuliani describes ‘watching her dads life crumble’ because of Donald Trump - Caroline Giuliani makes the chilling point that 'the kind of damage Trump could inflict the second time around might not be reversible ... he will change the fabric of our institutions, and that is something we may not be able to come back from.'

Might be amplified now, but anti-intellectualism/rebelling against and discounting expertise is actually a powerful, longstanding element of U.S. politics and social fabric. I read a fascinating book about it years ago:

https://www.amazon.com/Age-American-Unreason-Susan-Jacoby/dp/1400096383
Agreed. Social media may have accelerated/amplified the distrust of experts, but it’s been a part of the political fabric and discourse for much, much longer. Reagan made distrusting the role of the civil service part of his stump speeches (“… scariest words in the English language are ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help’”).
Even before then, the tobacco industry infamously sewed doubt about the expert consensus on the dangers of smoking, hiring enough ‘experts’ of their own to infuse doubt while simultaneously saying they wanted time to thoroughly “study the issue”. It was a playbook that was repeated page-for-page by the fossil fuel industry to address climate change, which the scientific community understood as a major threat even in the 1960s.
Political or financial profit can be obtained by convincing a majority of people to vote against their own self-interest. If people vote in their self-interest, the benefits accrue to them, not to you as a lobbyist or tycoon.

The job of the profit-seeking political influencer or politician is to convince people to think they are voting or acting in their own self-interest, when in fact they are not.

Experts can produce evidence that informs people how to act or vote in their self-interest. The scientists warning about the dangers of smoking or climate change, or the risks of a global pandemic virus spread by airplanes, produce the sort of information people can use to save lives. 

These experts are a problem for those who'd like to make a profit. Public trust in experts can be co-opted by hiring fake experts to create a false sense of academic controversy, or by simply using rhetoric to persuade people to distrust experts.

Social media puts basement-dwelling influencers and misinformation peddlers on the same level of discourse as experts. Actually, the influencers are promoted by the algorithms because they create more ad engagement. There's also the problem that social media has largely replaced journalism, so there is no responsible person filtering factual information from made-up claims. Few people subscribe to newspapers or follow mainstream TV networks anymore. We all get our information about the world from X or YouTube now. The internet simultaneously killed journalism while also incentivizing the production and dissemination of anti-expert opinions that "they don't want you to know about".

The results have been more people voting and acting against their self-interest, which eventually causes policies that go against the common good, which eventually becomes socioeconomic decline. That eventually leads to a distrust of democracy as a form of government.

Edit: related article, behind a paywall you can bypass with a free account
« Last Edit: October 05, 2024, 09:58:44 PM by ChpBstrd »

reeshau

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1240 on: October 05, 2024, 11:28:16 PM »
At this point in history, with Trump running a third time, I think there are a significant number of people who are voting for him, because they have voted for him before.  And not in a ho-hum, repetitive way, but rather if they change their vote now, they have to admit that their prior two votes may have been a mistake.  Priority #1 of Kahneman's System 1 / thinking fast is keeping us alive.  Priority #2 is keeping us happy; having a positive self-image, no matter the objective facts.  That leads to many symptoms, where turning back from a choice is not done despite evidence / motivation / further negative consequences.

My in-laws are a case in point.  Conscientious, successful, older boomers, they have been staunch fiscal conservatives for a long time.  Maybe, forever.  I don't know that they could articulate why they first voted for Trump, other than that he was the Republican candidate.  No amount of personal distaste dissuaded them.  What did dissuade them was January 6th.  Only, not in 2021, when it happened.  Only this year, when faced with *actually voting for him again,* have they come to grips with how bad that was in their own judgment.  Until now, any discussion along those lines brought head nods, and mostly silence.

I think it took time, in terms of distance from the immediate event, as well as internal scrambling to find coherent alternative stories that may make sense.  It also took another decision point, another vote, to either compound the internal-stories-that-don't-really-make-sense, or change their mind.  They still will react defensively if we delve too deeply on the past, but once they decided, they have taken action not only to vote, but to contribute to Democrats for the first time in their lives.

Is this everybody's path?  Of course not.  People will have different triggers, aligning with their different values.  But, if Trump does lose a third time, I think it will be harder for him to keep his grip on the GOP, as losing the election is so dissonent to his narrative as a winner.  People will leave for practical reasons, out of exhaustion, but also because this time happens to be the amount of overwhelming negative feedback that gets through to them.  Or, maybe it will happen only too late, after some scandal / global emergency / outrageous action that again-President Trump does, that finally reaches them.  This could be like people who supported Putin for his strong image.  (Which is, of course, a situation still in progress, with plenty of people unaware of the true impact of that group result)
« Last Edit: October 06, 2024, 07:07:44 AM by reeshau »

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1241 on: October 05, 2024, 11:31:33 PM »

I don't know that they could articulate why they first voted for Trump, other than that he was the Republican candidate.  No amount of personal distaste dissuaded them.  What did dissuade them was January 6th.  Only, not in 2020, when it happened.

Uh...they voted in November 2020. January 6th happened AFTER they voted - in 2021.

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1242 on: October 06, 2024, 05:04:45 AM »
As long as I am making decisions which benefit my life, it does not matter to me that others are making decisions that don't benefit themselves.

And while climate change is not a great thing, I doubt that on an individual scale it is going to lead to me … being hugely inconvenienced.

I would disagree strongly with both of these statements.

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1243 on: October 06, 2024, 06:55:39 AM »
This analysis and proposal appears to be pertinent to the discussion.
The author makes a convincing case for anti-partyism and non-proportional representation being to a large degree responsible for the alienation of the electorate from the political process.

Ironically, attempts at increasing political involvement at many levels have actually resulted in further discouragement of the electorate due to the complexities of the issues. This, in turn, has further empowered factional interests with the resources in time and funds to effectively capture the decision making process at many levels.

Fortunately, the structural issues and deficiencies explored here are very much amenable to reform, with the anti-partyism attitude that is prevalent in the US (despite of parties having been a prominent feature of the American political system almost since inception and for most of the time) being one of the more difficult issues to tackle. 

More Parties, Better Parties
The Case for Pro-Parties Democracy Reform
By: Lee Drutman
Last updated on July 3rd, 2023

Abstract
Political parties are the central institutions of modern representative democracy. They must also be at the center of efforts to reform American democracy. To redirect and realign the downward trajectory of our politics, we must focus on political parties. We need them to do better. And in order to create better parties, we need more parties.

This paper makes the case for pro-parties reform both generally, and then for two specific reforms that would center parties: fusion voting and proportional representation. Fusion voting allows for multiple parties to endorse the same candidate, encouraging new party formation. Proportional representation ends the single-member district, making it possible for multiple parties to win seats in larger, multi-member districts, in proportion to their popular support. The goal of these reforms—fusion in the short and medium term and proportional representation in the long term—is to move us toward a more representative, effective, and resilient democracy for the twenty-first century.


https://www.newamerica.org/political-reform/reports/more-parties-better-parties/

reeshau

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1244 on: October 06, 2024, 07:07:08 AM »

I don't know that they could articulate why they first voted for Trump, other than that he was the Republican candidate.  No amount of personal distaste dissuaded them.  What did dissuade them was January 6th.  Only, not in 2020, when it happened.

Uh...they voted in November 2020. January 6th happened AFTER they voted - in 2021.

Lol--well, I was writing late at night.  Say, "the 2020 election."

I didn't mean it should have affected their last vote.  Rather, since then, it's only been in 2024 that they have expressed outrage at what happened.  They stewed on it, without comment, for 3 years.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2024, 07:09:01 AM by reeshau »

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1245 on: October 06, 2024, 07:23:09 AM »
As long as I am making decisions which benefit my life, it does not matter to me that others are making decisions that don't benefit themselves.

And while climate change is not a great thing, I doubt that on an individual scale it is going to lead to me dying or being hugely inconvenienced. So if others want to be climate sceptics, I let them. I'm not the one who's going to get washed away or roasted to death. Maybe they are. It's a matter for them.

For the most part, the people who are going to suffer the most due to climate change are quite poor and do not live in developed countries. Many of them are begging developed nations to pay attention. So yes, I'm not very concerned about dying due to climate change. My climate denier neighbor Bob probably doesn't need to be either. Yet our inability to work together on the problem could certainly kill someone on the other side of the world with no voice in the argument.

I vote for parties with a responsible stance on climate change. I can do nothing beyond that. If Bob wants to vote otherwise I can't stop him, so it makes no sense for me to worry about something that's beyond my hands and beyond my responsibility. In aggregate, the people voting no to climate change are more likely to be affected by it by people voting yes, so there's some poetic justice there. Otherwise, it doesn't pay to shake one's fist at the dry, dry clouds.

nereo

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1246 on: October 06, 2024, 08:00:27 AM »
As long as I am making decisions which benefit my life, it does not matter to me that others are making decisions that don't benefit themselves.

And while climate change is not a great thing, I doubt that on an individual scale it is going to lead to me dying or being hugely inconvenienced. So if others want to be climate sceptics, I let them. I'm not the one who's going to get washed away or roasted to death. Maybe they are. It's a matter for them.

For the most part, the people who are going to suffer the most due to climate change are quite poor and do not live in developed countries. Many of them are begging developed nations to pay attention. So yes, I'm not very concerned about dying due to climate change. My climate denier neighbor Bob probably doesn't need to be either. Yet our inability to work together on the problem could certainly kill someone on the other side of the world with no voice in the argument.

I vote for parties with a responsible stance on climate change. I can do nothing beyond that. If Bob wants to vote otherwise I can't stop him, so it makes no sense for me to worry about something that's beyond my hands and beyond my responsibility. In aggregate, the people voting no to climate change are more likely to be affected by it by people voting yes, so there's some poetic justice there. Otherwise, it doesn't pay to shake one's fist at the dry, dry clouds.

Disagree. The people not voting at all (because they are not in developed countries) are most likely to be affected. Within developed countries, poor people are most likely to be affected, regardless of how they voted.

"I'm not willing to do anything beyond voting" is a common and probably fine stance, but "NO ONE should do anything besides voting" is pretty wildly ignorant of how change happens, IMO.

Like Tasse said, the ones not voting at all will suffer the most.

I also strongly refute the idea that “I can do nothing beyond voting”  voting is about the least one can do. You can be far more impactful actually taking an active role, particularly at the local/regional level. I’m on the planning board of our local climate action and development board, and it’s pretty amazing how much influence we have directly over about 25k people (we are a group of 8), and our work is being copied whole cloth by several other towns who don’t care to do the legwork, so our actual impact will cover several multiples more.

Just to say “well I voted for the “responsible parties” and wash your hands of it as too big to be impactful is a cop-out IMO.

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1247 on: October 07, 2024, 05:43:35 AM »
Anyway, we are a month out from the election. Harris killed the debate and is overspending Trump in the campaign. She’s gone as moderate as any Dem has done in years. Trump if anything has become nuttier in the past month or so, with long rambling speeches in which he makes obvious mistakes and is darker than ever. Hundreds of famous GOP members have come out against him.

The Dems should be measuring for new White House curtains, yet we’re still 50-50.

I hope the Dems are proud of themselves.  They aren't running away with this and don’t seem to have a plan to change it around.

Kris

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1248 on: October 07, 2024, 06:16:50 AM »
Anyway, we are a month out from the election. Harris killed the debate and is overspending Trump in the campaign. She’s gone as moderate as any Dem has done in years. Trump if anything has become nuttier in the past month or so, with long rambling speeches in which he makes obvious mistakes and is darker than ever. Hundreds of famous GOP members have come out against him.

The Dems should be measuring for new White House curtains, yet we’re still 50-50.

I hope the Dems are proud of themselves.  They aren't running away with this and don’t seem to have a plan to change it around.

Hey, I’m still waiting for you to show how tons of people are deifying Harris in this thread.

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1249 on: October 07, 2024, 07:47:28 AM »
I don’t think the results would be measurably different if the election were held today vs a month from now. 

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!