Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves

[PKFFW]

Trump appeals to people's dissatisfactions regardless of GDP, stock prices, or government statistics that say they should be doing fine. His frantic tone of voice and unstructured sentences reflect the urgency of people whose own lives are falling apart. Is it these people's own fault, because they bought a $70k pickup truck, flunked out of college, smoke a pack a day, and live in flyover country? Maybe yes, but that's the sort of question only a Democrat could ask. Anyone mystified by the stubborn support for Trump or Robinson needs to consider what these voters are reacting against. It is themselves.

I agree that people who vote for Trump and the GOP do have real concerns that should be addressed. I also agree that the Democrats need to do a better job at getting their message across and acknowledging those issues.

However, I'm not mystified by the stubborn support of Trump and his cronies.

The reality is that Trump acknowledging those concerns is not the reason he appeals to those people. Anyone with a skerrick of a brain cell deep down where they are honest with themselves knows Trump doesn't give a shit about them and won't do a thing to improve their situation. They just don't acknowledge or care about that truth. The reality is that Trump appeals to those people because he gives them what they truly want. He gives them someone to blame. The bogeyman "Leftist Democratic Elite" is a convenient target.

It's the oldest political trick in the book, and it works because plenty of people are happy as pigs in shit so long as they can direct their anger, fear, and loathing at someone other than themselves.

I don't accept they have real concerns that deserve to be addressed. I see a bunch of low-skilled, low-education people who are shitty that they no longer get automatic kudos by virtue of their skin colour, culture and gender. As far as I am concerned this is a good thing. If they can't deal with it, that's their problem and not mine. And if it comes down to it, we will see who is better equipped to defend their values. It won't be them.

I agree with all of this except the first sentence.

That the rest of your statement, in my opinion, is true, does not negate the fact, also in my opinion, that they also have real concerns and issues. And I think if Democrats truly believe and really embody the values they purport to, it is incumbent upon them to seek to address such concerns and issues.

[Ron Scott]

A key aspect of Trump's populism is that even people like himself without clean pedigrees, a lifetime of relevant experience, or top-of-class grades can run for office against the "elites".  These "elites" speak in aristocratic terms, come from backgrounds that are inaccessible to most people, have salon-perfect hair, and look down upon politically uncouth behavior like porn habits, mistresses, and racist comments.

This is so true!

I would add that the elites, with all their education and supposed worldliness, are so stupid they’ve gotten themselves into a situation of their own making in which half the country or more seem willing to elect a complete moron when compared to their reasonable candidate. This is stupidity at an ASTOUNDING level.

I also believe that at least 2/3rds of Trump voters really don’t like him but vote simply because they have such disdain for the elites. The system is rigged by the 2 parties so we only have a choice between them. So…divided we fall…

What I find fascinating is how easy the trigger word of "elites" is used to short-circuit people's critical thinking skills. As though there is some "liberal elite" cabal of out-of touch voters who were all born on the east coast with daddy's money and silver spoons in their mouths. (You know. Like Donald Trump?)

When in reality, liberals as a whole are a pretty diverse group, who happen to generally prefer to live in more populous and diverse areas, but not all on the east coast, and not all coming from money. Like, lots and lots of us come exactly from the areas that most Trumpers live in now. I know I did. And yeah, I left. Because of lack of opportunity and not wanting to live in a corn field. Why does that somehow mean I'm "elite" and out of touch? What makes us "elite," exactly? That we made something of ourselves? Isn't that what we're supposed to be doing?

It's like Schrodinger's liberal. At once an out of touch elite and a deadbeat on welfare.

Not to mention... elite is good. Who do you want on your NFL team? The average joes who are obese on their couches? Or do you wan the elite athletes? Who do you want running the companies you have shares in? Someone who dropped out of highschool or an elite thinker etc? Same with political leaders... being an average person isn't a virtue, and they shouldn't be something to aspire to in our political leadership.

A good way to think of the stupidity—the damage elites do to their own cause—can be summed up with the joke—How can you tell the toothbrush was invented in Alabama?

It’s the holier than thou attitude; the superiority; the basket of deplorables; the unwanted paternalistic solutions to socioeconomic dislocation; and the smug dismissal of the religious by the confident atheist who appears hoisted by his own petard.

Maslow missed a big one: People need to be respected. And when they ID a group they think constantly looks down their noses at them, they react violently.

Because anyplace else would have named it a teethbrush? It’s the attitude, stupid.

[Kris]

A key aspect of Trump's populism is that even people like himself without clean pedigrees, a lifetime of relevant experience, or top-of-class grades can run for office against the "elites".  These "elites" speak in aristocratic terms, come from backgrounds that are inaccessible to most people, have salon-perfect hair, and look down upon politically uncouth behavior like porn habits, mistresses, and racist comments.

This is so true!

I would add that the elites, with all their education and supposed worldliness, are so stupid they’ve gotten themselves into a situation of their own making in which half the country or more seem willing to elect a complete moron when compared to their reasonable candidate. This is stupidity at an ASTOUNDING level.

I also believe that at least 2/3rds of Trump voters really don’t like him but vote simply because they have such disdain for the elites. The system is rigged by the 2 parties so we only have a choice between them. So…divided we fall…

What I find fascinating is how easy the trigger word of "elites" is used to short-circuit people's critical thinking skills. As though there is some "liberal elite" cabal of out-of touch voters who were all born on the east coast with daddy's money and silver spoons in their mouths. (You know. Like Donald Trump?)

When in reality, liberals as a whole are a pretty diverse group, who happen to generally prefer to live in more populous and diverse areas, but not all on the east coast, and not all coming from money. Like, lots and lots of us come exactly from the areas that most Trumpers live in now. I know I did. And yeah, I left. Because of lack of opportunity and not wanting to live in a corn field. Why does that somehow mean I'm "elite" and out of touch? What makes us "elite," exactly? That we made something of ourselves? Isn't that what we're supposed to be doing?

It's like Schrodinger's liberal. At once an out of touch elite and a deadbeat on welfare.

Not to mention... elite is good. Who do you want on your NFL team? The average joes who are obese on their couches? Or do you wan the elite athletes? Who do you want running the companies you have shares in? Someone who dropped out of highschool or an elite thinker etc? Same with political leaders... being an average person isn't a virtue, and they shouldn't be something to aspire to in our political leadership.

A good way to think of the stupidity—the damage elites do to their own cause—can be summed up with the joke—How can you tell the toothbrush was invented in Alabama?

It’s the holier than thou attitude; the superiority; the basket of deplorables; the unwanted paternalistic solutions to socioeconomic dislocation; and the smug dismissal of the religious by the confident atheist who appears hoisted by his own petard.

Maslow missed a big one: People need to be respected. And when they ID a group they think constantly looks down their noses at them, they react violently.

Because anyplace else would have named it a teethbrush? It’s the attitude, stupid.

One of the main reasons I left the cornfields was because growing up, family, and then neighbors, were always mocking and deriding me for… gasp… reading books and having glasses.

That was a long time before this deplorables stuff. So maybe give it a rest with your “simple salt-of-the-earth folk being mocked by the meany elites” act.

[Ron Scott]

A key aspect of Trump's populism is that even people like himself without clean pedigrees, a lifetime of relevant experience, or top-of-class grades can run for office against the "elites".  These "elites" speak in aristocratic terms, come from backgrounds that are inaccessible to most people, have salon-perfect hair, and look down upon politically uncouth behavior like porn habits, mistresses, and racist comments.

This is so true!

I would add that the elites, with all their education and supposed worldliness, are so stupid they’ve gotten themselves into a situation of their own making in which half the country or more seem willing to elect a complete moron when compared to their reasonable candidate. This is stupidity at an ASTOUNDING level.

I also believe that at least 2/3rds of Trump voters really don’t like him but vote simply because they have such disdain for the elites. The system is rigged by the 2 parties so we only have a choice between them. So…divided we fall…

What I find fascinating is how easy the trigger word of "elites" is used to short-circuit people's critical thinking skills. As though there is some "liberal elite" cabal of out-of touch voters who were all born on the east coast with daddy's money and silver spoons in their mouths. (You know. Like Donald Trump?)

When in reality, liberals as a whole are a pretty diverse group, who happen to generally prefer to live in more populous and diverse areas, but not all on the east coast, and not all coming from money. Like, lots and lots of us come exactly from the areas that most Trumpers live in now. I know I did. And yeah, I left. Because of lack of opportunity and not wanting to live in a corn field. Why does that somehow mean I'm "elite" and out of touch? What makes us "elite," exactly? That we made something of ourselves? Isn't that what we're supposed to be doing?

It's like Schrodinger's liberal. At once an out of touch elite and a deadbeat on welfare.

Not to mention... elite is good. Who do you want on your NFL team? The average joes who are obese on their couches? Or do you wan the elite athletes? Who do you want running the companies you have shares in? Someone who dropped out of highschool or an elite thinker etc? Same with political leaders... being an average person isn't a virtue, and they shouldn't be something to aspire to in our political leadership.

A good way to think of the stupidity—the damage elites do to their own cause—can be summed up with the joke—How can you tell the toothbrush was invented in Alabama?

It’s the holier than thou attitude; the superiority; the basket of deplorables; the unwanted paternalistic solutions to socioeconomic dislocation; and the smug dismissal of the religious by the confident atheist who appears hoisted by his own petard.

Maslow missed a big one: People need to be respected. And when they ID a group they think constantly looks down their noses at them, they react violently.

Because anyplace else would have named it a teethbrush? It’s the attitude, stupid.

One of the main reasons I left the cornfields was because growing up, family, and then neighbors, were always mocking and deriding me for… gasp… reading books and having glasses.

That was a long time before this deplorables stuff. So maybe give it a rest with your “simple salt-of-the-earth folk being mocked by the meany elites” act.

I lived in rural PA for years and since economic opportunity was hard to find there families were thrilled then the kids went to college and left the area for a good job. So I find your nerd-with-glasses-in-a-cornfield story hard to empathize with.

If you’ve now joined us NYers laughing at your old friends and family living in fly-over territory and spending Saturday nights at the church hoedown, you made the right move.

Look I really don’t care what stereotypes the coasts, the south, and middle America hold about each other. But I do understand the effect on politics…and there I can tell you the elites are the dumbest fish in the tank.

[PeteD01]

A key aspect of Trump's populism is that even people like himself without clean pedigrees, a lifetime of relevant experience, or top-of-class grades can run for office against the "elites".  These "elites" speak in aristocratic terms, come from backgrounds that are inaccessible to most people, have salon-perfect hair, and look down upon politically uncouth behavior like porn habits, mistresses, and racist comments.

This is so true!

I would add that the elites, with all their education and supposed worldliness, are so stupid they’ve gotten themselves into a situation of their own making in which half the country or more seem willing to elect a complete moron when compared to their reasonable candidate. This is stupidity at an ASTOUNDING level.

I also believe that at least 2/3rds of Trump voters really don’t like him but vote simply because they have such disdain for the elites. The system is rigged by the 2 parties so we only have a choice between them. So…divided we fall…

What I find fascinating is how easy the trigger word of "elites" is used to short-circuit people's critical thinking skills. As though there is some "liberal elite" cabal of out-of touch voters who were all born on the east coast with daddy's money and silver spoons in their mouths. (You know. Like Donald Trump?)

When in reality, liberals as a whole are a pretty diverse group, who happen to generally prefer to live in more populous and diverse areas, but not all on the east coast, and not all coming from money. Like, lots and lots of us come exactly from the areas that most Trumpers live in now. I know I did. And yeah, I left. Because of lack of opportunity and not wanting to live in a corn field. Why does that somehow mean I'm "elite" and out of touch? What makes us "elite," exactly? That we made something of ourselves? Isn't that what we're supposed to be doing?

It's like Schrodinger's liberal. At once an out of touch elite and a deadbeat on welfare.

Not to mention... elite is good. Who do you want on your NFL team? The average joes who are obese on their couches? Or do you wan the elite athletes? Who do you want running the companies you have shares in? Someone who dropped out of highschool or an elite thinker etc? Same with political leaders... being an average person isn't a virtue, and they shouldn't be something to aspire to in our political leadership.

A good way to think of the stupidity—the damage elites do to their own cause—can be summed up with the joke—How can you tell the toothbrush was invented in Alabama?

It’s the holier than thou attitude; the superiority; the basket of deplorables; the unwanted paternalistic solutions to socioeconomic dislocation; and the smug dismissal of the religious by the confident atheist who appears hoisted by his own petard.

Maslow missed a big one: People need to be respected. And when they ID a group they think constantly looks down their noses at them, they react violently.

Because anyplace else would have named it a teethbrush? It’s the attitude, stupid.

One of the main reasons I left the cornfields was because growing up, family, and then neighbors, were always mocking and deriding me for… gasp… reading books and having glasses.

That was a long time before this deplorables stuff. So maybe give it a rest with your “simple salt-of-the-earth folk being mocked by the meany elites” act.

I lived in rural PA for years and since economic opportunity was hard to find there families were thrilled then the kids went to college and left the area for a good job. So I find your nerd-with-glasses-in-a-cornfield story hard to empathize with.

If you’ve now joined us NYers laughing at your old friends and family living in fly-over territory and spending Saturday nights at the church hoedown, you made the right move.

Look I really don’t care what stereotypes the coasts, the south, and middle America hold about each other. But I do understand the effect on politics…and there I can tell you the elites are the dumbest fish in the tank.

Lots of projection going on here - it seems that it were the GOP elites that got their teeth kicked in and their party destroyed by an orange conman and his demented MAGA movement, and not by coastal elites.

NYers do not laugh about flyover country folks - they don't even think about them.

So yeah, the GOP elites´ disdain and disrespect towards their own constituents combined with a decades long effort to impoverish and shrink the middle class have apparently caught up with them.
Of course, could not possibly be their fault - it must be a nefarious plan of the coastal elites that uses MAGA and DJT to destroy conservatism as a political force for the time being.

I mean who else´s fault could it possibly be? It's got to be the Dems, waah waah...

The GOP self-destructed by nurturing a reactionary movement within the party which became so intellectually bankrupt, and covered with lies like a dung beetle with feces, that it was ripe for takeover by a life-long conman and entertainer with high criminal energy and limited cognitive ability (yes, even before his current decline). 
 

[Kris]

A key aspect of Trump's populism is that even people like himself without clean pedigrees, a lifetime of relevant experience, or top-of-class grades can run for office against the "elites".  These "elites" speak in aristocratic terms, come from backgrounds that are inaccessible to most people, have salon-perfect hair, and look down upon politically uncouth behavior like porn habits, mistresses, and racist comments.

This is so true!

I would add that the elites, with all their education and supposed worldliness, are so stupid they’ve gotten themselves into a situation of their own making in which half the country or more seem willing to elect a complete moron when compared to their reasonable candidate. This is stupidity at an ASTOUNDING level.

I also believe that at least 2/3rds of Trump voters really don’t like him but vote simply because they have such disdain for the elites. The system is rigged by the 2 parties so we only have a choice between them. So…divided we fall…

What I find fascinating is how easy the trigger word of "elites" is used to short-circuit people's critical thinking skills. As though there is some "liberal elite" cabal of out-of touch voters who were all born on the east coast with daddy's money and silver spoons in their mouths. (You know. Like Donald Trump?)

When in reality, liberals as a whole are a pretty diverse group, who happen to generally prefer to live in more populous and diverse areas, but not all on the east coast, and not all coming from money. Like, lots and lots of us come exactly from the areas that most Trumpers live in now. I know I did. And yeah, I left. Because of lack of opportunity and not wanting to live in a corn field. Why does that somehow mean I'm "elite" and out of touch? What makes us "elite," exactly? That we made something of ourselves? Isn't that what we're supposed to be doing?

It's like Schrodinger's liberal. At once an out of touch elite and a deadbeat on welfare.

Not to mention... elite is good. Who do you want on your NFL team? The average joes who are obese on their couches? Or do you wan the elite athletes? Who do you want running the companies you have shares in? Someone who dropped out of highschool or an elite thinker etc? Same with political leaders... being an average person isn't a virtue, and they shouldn't be something to aspire to in our political leadership.

A good way to think of the stupidity—the damage elites do to their own cause—can be summed up with the joke—How can you tell the toothbrush was invented in Alabama?

It’s the holier than thou attitude; the superiority; the basket of deplorables; the unwanted paternalistic solutions to socioeconomic dislocation; and the smug dismissal of the religious by the confident atheist who appears hoisted by his own petard.

Maslow missed a big one: People need to be respected. And when they ID a group they think constantly looks down their noses at them, they react violently.

Because anyplace else would have named it a teethbrush? It’s the attitude, stupid.

One of the main reasons I left the cornfields was because growing up, family, and then neighbors, were always mocking and deriding me for… gasp… reading books and having glasses.

That was a long time before this deplorables stuff. So maybe give it a rest with your “simple salt-of-the-earth folk being mocked by the meany elites” act.

I lived in rural PA for years and since economic opportunity was hard to find there families were thrilled then the kids went to college and left the area for a good job. So I find your nerd-with-glasses-in-a-cornfield story hard to empathize with.

If you’ve now joined us NYers laughing at your old friends and family living in fly-over territory and spending Saturday nights at the church hoedown, you made the right move.

Look I really don’t care what stereotypes the coasts, the south, and middle America hold about each other. But I do understand the effect on politics…and there I can tell you the elites are the dumbest fish in the tank.

Lol, look at you trying to play “who’s more blue-collar.”

I still live in flyover country, by the way. So according to your definition, you’re the elite, not me.

[Ron Scott]

A key aspect of Trump's populism is that even people like himself without clean pedigrees, a lifetime of relevant experience, or top-of-class grades can run for office against the "elites".  These "elites" speak in aristocratic terms, come from backgrounds that are inaccessible to most people, have salon-perfect hair, and look down upon politically uncouth behavior like porn habits, mistresses, and racist comments.

This is so true!

I would add that the elites, with all their education and supposed worldliness, are so stupid they’ve gotten themselves into a situation of their own making in which half the country or more seem willing to elect a complete moron when compared to their reasonable candidate. This is stupidity at an ASTOUNDING level.

I also believe that at least 2/3rds of Trump voters really don’t like him but vote simply because they have such disdain for the elites. The system is rigged by the 2 parties so we only have a choice between them. So…divided we fall…

What I find fascinating is how easy the trigger word of "elites" is used to short-circuit people's critical thinking skills. As though there is some "liberal elite" cabal of out-of touch voters who were all born on the east coast with daddy's money and silver spoons in their mouths. (You know. Like Donald Trump?)

When in reality, liberals as a whole are a pretty diverse group, who happen to generally prefer to live in more populous and diverse areas, but not all on the east coast, and not all coming from money. Like, lots and lots of us come exactly from the areas that most Trumpers live in now. I know I did. And yeah, I left. Because of lack of opportunity and not wanting to live in a corn field. Why does that somehow mean I'm "elite" and out of touch? What makes us "elite," exactly? That we made something of ourselves? Isn't that what we're supposed to be doing?

It's like Schrodinger's liberal. At once an out of touch elite and a deadbeat on welfare.

Not to mention... elite is good. Who do you want on your NFL team? The average joes who are obese on their couches? Or do you wan the elite athletes? Who do you want running the companies you have shares in? Someone who dropped out of highschool or an elite thinker etc? Same with political leaders... being an average person isn't a virtue, and they shouldn't be something to aspire to in our political leadership.

A good way to think of the stupidity—the damage elites do to their own cause—can be summed up with the joke—How can you tell the toothbrush was invented in Alabama?

It’s the holier than thou attitude; the superiority; the basket of deplorables; the unwanted paternalistic solutions to socioeconomic dislocation; and the smug dismissal of the religious by the confident atheist who appears hoisted by his own petard.

Maslow missed a big one: People need to be respected. And when they ID a group they think constantly looks down their noses at them, they react violently.

Because anyplace else would have named it a teethbrush? It’s the attitude, stupid.

One of the main reasons I left the cornfields was because growing up, family, and then neighbors, were always mocking and deriding me for… gasp… reading books and having glasses.

That was a long time before this deplorables stuff. So maybe give it a rest with your “simple salt-of-the-earth folk being mocked by the meany elites” act.

I lived in rural PA for years and since economic opportunity was hard to find there families were thrilled then the kids went to college and left the area for a good job. So I find your nerd-with-glasses-in-a-cornfield story hard to empathize with.

If you’ve now joined us NYers laughing at your old friends and family living in fly-over territory and spending Saturday nights at the church hoedown, you made the right move.

Look I really don’t care what stereotypes the coasts, the south, and middle America hold about each other. But I do understand the effect on politics…and there I can tell you the elites are the dumbest fish in the tank.

Lol, look at you trying to play “who’s more blue-collar.”

I still live in flyover country, by the way. So according to your definition, you’re the elite, not me.

OMG, I did not stay there long. Back to NY for me.

But you don’t address my point. Why?

[MaybeBabyMustache]

Kris & others who participate -
Reading these threads reiterates my belief that the OP is a giant troll. If they are not, well... there's a lot of gas lighting and illogical debating happening here. If you want to continue to engage, you do you, but it also creates an incentive for the OP to keep this up.

[Kris]

A key aspect of Trump's populism is that even people like himself without clean pedigrees, a lifetime of relevant experience, or top-of-class grades can run for office against the "elites".  These "elites" speak in aristocratic terms, come from backgrounds that are inaccessible to most people, have salon-perfect hair, and look down upon politically uncouth behavior like porn habits, mistresses, and racist comments.

This is so true!

I would add that the elites, with all their education and supposed worldliness, are so stupid they’ve gotten themselves into a situation of their own making in which half the country or more seem willing to elect a complete moron when compared to their reasonable candidate. This is stupidity at an ASTOUNDING level.

I also believe that at least 2/3rds of Trump voters really don’t like him but vote simply because they have such disdain for the elites. The system is rigged by the 2 parties so we only have a choice between them. So…divided we fall…

What I find fascinating is how easy the trigger word of "elites" is used to short-circuit people's critical thinking skills. As though there is some "liberal elite" cabal of out-of touch voters who were all born on the east coast with daddy's money and silver spoons in their mouths. (You know. Like Donald Trump?)

When in reality, liberals as a whole are a pretty diverse group, who happen to generally prefer to live in more populous and diverse areas, but not all on the east coast, and not all coming from money. Like, lots and lots of us come exactly from the areas that most Trumpers live in now. I know I did. And yeah, I left. Because of lack of opportunity and not wanting to live in a corn field. Why does that somehow mean I'm "elite" and out of touch? What makes us "elite," exactly? That we made something of ourselves? Isn't that what we're supposed to be doing?

It's like Schrodinger's liberal. At once an out of touch elite and a deadbeat on welfare.

Not to mention... elite is good. Who do you want on your NFL team? The average joes who are obese on their couches? Or do you wan the elite athletes? Who do you want running the companies you have shares in? Someone who dropped out of highschool or an elite thinker etc? Same with political leaders... being an average person isn't a virtue, and they shouldn't be something to aspire to in our political leadership.

A good way to think of the stupidity—the damage elites do to their own cause—can be summed up with the joke—How can you tell the toothbrush was invented in Alabama?

It’s the holier than thou attitude; the superiority; the basket of deplorables; the unwanted paternalistic solutions to socioeconomic dislocation; and the smug dismissal of the religious by the confident atheist who appears hoisted by his own petard.

Maslow missed a big one: People need to be respected. And when they ID a group they think constantly looks down their noses at them, they react violently.

Because anyplace else would have named it a teethbrush? It’s the attitude, stupid.

One of the main reasons I left the cornfields was because growing up, family, and then neighbors, were always mocking and deriding me for… gasp… reading books and having glasses.

That was a long time before this deplorables stuff. So maybe give it a rest with your “simple salt-of-the-earth folk being mocked by the meany elites” act.

I lived in rural PA for years and since economic opportunity was hard to find there families were thrilled then the kids went to college and left the area for a good job. So I find your nerd-with-glasses-in-a-cornfield story hard to empathize with.

If you’ve now joined us NYers laughing at your old friends and family living in fly-over territory and spending Saturday nights at the church hoedown, you made the right move.

Look I really don’t care what stereotypes the coasts, the south, and middle America hold about each other. But I do understand the effect on politics…and there I can tell you the elites are the dumbest fish in the tank.

Lol, look at you trying to play “who’s more blue-collar.”

I still live in flyover country, by the way. So according to your definition, you’re the elite, not me.

OMG, I did not stay there long. Back to NY for me.

But you don’t address my point. Why?

I didn’t see any questions in your comment. Reading it again, I still don’t.

[Ron Scott]

Kris & others who participate -
Reading these threads reiterates my belief that the OP is a giant troll. If they are not, well... there's a lot of gas lighting and illogical debating happening here. If you want to continue to engage, you do you, but it also creates an incentive for the OP to keep this up.

This is a tired, disappointing response to posts that challenge group norms. When someone posts dislike both political parties and thinks the Dems in particular have gotten themselves mired in a self-made shithole, rather than admit differences in opinion  and discuss ideas—just all the poster a troll or some other childish name. Even better—let’s mount a campaign around it.

You can choose to either be trained or to think. Choose wisely.

[Kris]

Kris & others who participate -
Reading these threads reiterates my belief that the OP is a giant troll. If they are not, well... there's a lot of gas lighting and illogical debating happening here. If you want to continue to engage, you do you, but it also creates an incentive for the OP to keep this up.

Yeah, no, I definitely agree. But sometimes the hypocrisy is so blatant in situations like these, I reply not for the troll, but for others who might be reading and be inclined to buy into their line of thinking.

[Ron Scott]

A key aspect of Trump's populism is that even people like himself without clean pedigrees, a lifetime of relevant experience, or top-of-class grades can run for office against the "elites".  These "elites" speak in aristocratic terms, come from backgrounds that are inaccessible to most people, have salon-perfect hair, and look down upon politically uncouth behavior like porn habits, mistresses, and racist comments.

This is so true!

I would add that the elites, with all their education and supposed worldliness, are so stupid they’ve gotten themselves into a situation of their own making in which half the country or more seem willing to elect a complete moron when compared to their reasonable candidate. This is stupidity at an ASTOUNDING level.

I also believe that at least 2/3rds of Trump voters really don’t like him but vote simply because they have such disdain for the elites. The system is rigged by the 2 parties so we only have a choice between them. So…divided we fall…

What I find fascinating is how easy the trigger word of "elites" is used to short-circuit people's critical thinking skills. As though there is some "liberal elite" cabal of out-of touch voters who were all born on the east coast with daddy's money and silver spoons in their mouths. (You know. Like Donald Trump?)

When in reality, liberals as a whole are a pretty diverse group, who happen to generally prefer to live in more populous and diverse areas, but not all on the east coast, and not all coming from money. Like, lots and lots of us come exactly from the areas that most Trumpers live in now. I know I did. And yeah, I left. Because of lack of opportunity and not wanting to live in a corn field. Why does that somehow mean I'm "elite" and out of touch? What makes us "elite," exactly? That we made something of ourselves? Isn't that what we're supposed to be doing?

It's like Schrodinger's liberal. At once an out of touch elite and a deadbeat on welfare.

Not to mention... elite is good. Who do you want on your NFL team? The average joes who are obese on their couches? Or do you wan the elite athletes? Who do you want running the companies you have shares in? Someone who dropped out of highschool or an elite thinker etc? Same with political leaders... being an average person isn't a virtue, and they shouldn't be something to aspire to in our political leadership.

A good way to think of the stupidity—the damage elites do to their own cause—can be summed up with the joke—How can you tell the toothbrush was invented in Alabama?

It’s the holier than thou attitude; the superiority; the basket of deplorables; the unwanted paternalistic solutions to socioeconomic dislocation; and the smug dismissal of the religious by the confident atheist who appears hoisted by his own petard.

Maslow missed a big one: People need to be respected. And when they ID a group they think constantly looks down their noses at them, they react violently.

Because anyplace else would have named it a teethbrush? It’s the attitude, stupid.

One of the main reasons I left the cornfields was because growing up, family, and then neighbors, were always mocking and deriding me for… gasp… reading books and having glasses.

That was a long time before this deplorables stuff. So maybe give it a rest with your “simple salt-of-the-earth folk being mocked by the meany elites” act.

I lived in rural PA for years and since economic opportunity was hard to find there families were thrilled then the kids went to college and left the area for a good job. So I find your nerd-with-glasses-in-a-cornfield story hard to empathize with.

If you’ve now joined us NYers laughing at your old friends and family living in fly-over territory and spending Saturday nights at the church hoedown, you made the right move.

Look I really don’t care what stereotypes the coasts, the south, and middle America hold about each other. But I do understand the effect on politics…and there I can tell you the elites are the dumbest fish in the tank.

Lol, look at you trying to play “who’s more blue-collar.”

I still live in flyover country, by the way. So according to your definition, you’re the elite, not me.

OMG, I did not stay there long. Back to NY for me.

But you don’t address my point. Why?

I didn’t see any questions in your comment. Reading it again, I still don’t.

i was referring to my point, not a particular question—i.e., that the elite attitude of many Dems, many of whom are coastal types and among the haves in society, work against their own stated political aims.

I find it funny that Dems laugh at lower middle class Trump voters for voting against their own economic interest, while they themselves act-out against their own political interests.

[Kris]

A key aspect of Trump's populism is that even people like himself without clean pedigrees, a lifetime of relevant experience, or top-of-class grades can run for office against the "elites".  These "elites" speak in aristocratic terms, come from backgrounds that are inaccessible to most people, have salon-perfect hair, and look down upon politically uncouth behavior like porn habits, mistresses, and racist comments.

This is so true!

I would add that the elites, with all their education and supposed worldliness, are so stupid they’ve gotten themselves into a situation of their own making in which half the country or more seem willing to elect a complete moron when compared to their reasonable candidate. This is stupidity at an ASTOUNDING level.

I also believe that at least 2/3rds of Trump voters really don’t like him but vote simply because they have such disdain for the elites. The system is rigged by the 2 parties so we only have a choice between them. So…divided we fall…

What I find fascinating is how easy the trigger word of "elites" is used to short-circuit people's critical thinking skills. As though there is some "liberal elite" cabal of out-of touch voters who were all born on the east coast with daddy's money and silver spoons in their mouths. (You know. Like Donald Trump?)

When in reality, liberals as a whole are a pretty diverse group, who happen to generally prefer to live in more populous and diverse areas, but not all on the east coast, and not all coming from money. Like, lots and lots of us come exactly from the areas that most Trumpers live in now. I know I did. And yeah, I left. Because of lack of opportunity and not wanting to live in a corn field. Why does that somehow mean I'm "elite" and out of touch? What makes us "elite," exactly? That we made something of ourselves? Isn't that what we're supposed to be doing?

It's like Schrodinger's liberal. At once an out of touch elite and a deadbeat on welfare.

Not to mention... elite is good. Who do you want on your NFL team? The average joes who are obese on their couches? Or do you wan the elite athletes? Who do you want running the companies you have shares in? Someone who dropped out of highschool or an elite thinker etc? Same with political leaders... being an average person isn't a virtue, and they shouldn't be something to aspire to in our political leadership.

A good way to think of the stupidity—the damage elites do to their own cause—can be summed up with the joke—How can you tell the toothbrush was invented in Alabama?

It’s the holier than thou attitude; the superiority; the basket of deplorables; the unwanted paternalistic solutions to socioeconomic dislocation; and the smug dismissal of the religious by the confident atheist who appears hoisted by his own petard.

Maslow missed a big one: People need to be respected. And when they ID a group they think constantly looks down their noses at them, they react violently.

Because anyplace else would have named it a teethbrush? It’s the attitude, stupid.

One of the main reasons I left the cornfields was because growing up, family, and then neighbors, were always mocking and deriding me for… gasp… reading books and having glasses.

That was a long time before this deplorables stuff. So maybe give it a rest with your “simple salt-of-the-earth folk being mocked by the meany elites” act.

I lived in rural PA for years and since economic opportunity was hard to find there families were thrilled then the kids went to college and left the area for a good job. So I find your nerd-with-glasses-in-a-cornfield story hard to empathize with.

If you’ve now joined us NYers laughing at your old friends and family living in fly-over territory and spending Saturday nights at the church hoedown, you made the right move.

Look I really don’t care what stereotypes the coasts, the south, and middle America hold about each other. But I do understand the effect on politics…and there I can tell you the elites are the dumbest fish in the tank.

Lol, look at you trying to play “who’s more blue-collar.”

I still live in flyover country, by the way. So according to your definition, you’re the elite, not me.

OMG, I did not stay there long. Back to NY for me.

But you don’t address my point. Why?

I didn’t see any questions in your comment. Reading it again, I still don’t.

i was referring to my point, not a particular question—i.e., that the elite attitude of many Dems, many of whom are coastal types and among the haves in society, work against their own stated political aims.

I find it funny that Dems laugh at lower middle class Trump voters for voting against their own economic interest, while they themselves act-out against their own political interests.

Sir, here’s the thing. You have a history on this forum of having people reply in good faith to “points” like these with good, nuanced arguments. And then you just kinda… ignore everything they have said and continue on your merry way hammering on your same points, as though no one has said a thing to rebut or refute them.

So forgive me if I don’t feel like repeating things others have already said. In my experience, it wouldn’t make a difference anyway.

[twinstudy]

A key aspect of Trump's populism is that even people like himself without clean pedigrees, a lifetime of relevant experience, or top-of-class grades can run for office against the "elites".  These "elites" speak in aristocratic terms, come from backgrounds that are inaccessible to most people, have salon-perfect hair, and look down upon politically uncouth behavior like porn habits, mistresses, and racist comments.

This is so true!

I would add that the elites, with all their education and supposed worldliness, are so stupid they’ve gotten themselves into a situation of their own making in which half the country or more seem willing to elect a complete moron when compared to their reasonable candidate. This is stupidity at an ASTOUNDING level.

I also believe that at least 2/3rds of Trump voters really don’t like him but vote simply because they have such disdain for the elites. The system is rigged by the 2 parties so we only have a choice between them. So…divided we fall…

What I find fascinating is how easy the trigger word of "elites" is used to short-circuit people's critical thinking skills. As though there is some "liberal elite" cabal of out-of touch voters who were all born on the east coast with daddy's money and silver spoons in their mouths. (You know. Like Donald Trump?)

When in reality, liberals as a whole are a pretty diverse group, who happen to generally prefer to live in more populous and diverse areas, but not all on the east coast, and not all coming from money. Like, lots and lots of us come exactly from the areas that most Trumpers live in now. I know I did. And yeah, I left. Because of lack of opportunity and not wanting to live in a corn field. Why does that somehow mean I'm "elite" and out of touch? What makes us "elite," exactly? That we made something of ourselves? Isn't that what we're supposed to be doing?

It's like Schrodinger's liberal. At once an out of touch elite and a deadbeat on welfare.

Not to mention... elite is good. Who do you want on your NFL team? The average joes who are obese on their couches? Or do you wan the elite athletes? Who do you want running the companies you have shares in? Someone who dropped out of highschool or an elite thinker etc? Same with political leaders... being an average person isn't a virtue, and they shouldn't be something to aspire to in our political leadership.

A good way to think of the stupidity—the damage elites do to their own cause—can be summed up with the joke—How can you tell the toothbrush was invented in Alabama?

It’s the holier than thou attitude; the superiority; the basket of deplorables; the unwanted paternalistic solutions to socioeconomic dislocation; and the smug dismissal of the religious by the confident atheist who appears hoisted by his own petard.

Maslow missed a big one: People need to be respected. And when they ID a group they think constantly looks down their noses at them, they react violently.

Because anyplace else would have named it a teethbrush? It’s the attitude, stupid.

People don't need to be respected. They need oxygen. Respect is optional.

If the people who feel disrespected want to react violently, then they can bear the consequences.

One of the reasons the military exists is to put down insurrections by the slovenly masses. If you don't believe me, see if they get away with another Capitol incident.

You say the elites are acting against their own interest. Not the way I see it. They've gobbled up all the economic growth and most of the advantages created by capitalism in the past 5 decades. I'd say the elites are winning - and good on them.

[bacchi]

You say the elites are acting against their own interest. Not the way I see it. They've gobbled up all the economic growth and most of the advantages created by capitalism in the past 5 decades. I'd say the elites are winning - and good on them.

Conservative elites have redirected the anger. It's not the Waltons or the Koch brothers who are buying crappy products from China or dumping battery acid in the rivers; it's not the billionaire heir who is selling NFTs and golden sneakers; the problem is with the big city educated and the Jews and the immigrant brown people working on the lawns and in the daycares!

Same as it ever was.

[theninthwall]

Sir, here’s the thing. You have a history on this forum of having people reply in good faith to “points” like these with good, nuanced arguments. And then you just kinda… ignore everything they have said and continue on your merry way hammering on your same points, as though no one has said a thing to rebut or refute them.

So forgive me if I don’t feel like repeating things others have already said. In my experience, it wouldn’t make a difference anyway.

👏

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

Sir, here’s the thing. You have a history on this forum of having people reply in good faith to “points” like these with good, nuanced arguments. And then you just kinda… ignore everything they have said and continue on your merry way hammering on your same points, as though no one has said a thing to rebut or refute them.

So forgive me if I don’t feel like repeating things others have already said. In my experience, it wouldn’t make a difference anyway.

👏

It's gotten to the point where it feels like that Skyhigh poster in that regard. The overall questions/thoughts aren't bad - it's the lack of a thoughtful response to well reasoned posts about those points that is the problem.

[Ron Scott]

A key aspect of Trump's populism is that even people like himself without clean pedigrees, a lifetime of relevant experience, or top-of-class grades can run for office against the "elites".  These "elites" speak in aristocratic terms, come from backgrounds that are inaccessible to most people, have salon-perfect hair, and look down upon politically uncouth behavior like porn habits, mistresses, and racist comments.

This is so true!

I would add that the elites, with all their education and supposed worldliness, are so stupid they’ve gotten themselves into a situation of their own making in which half the country or more seem willing to elect a complete moron when compared to their reasonable candidate. This is stupidity at an ASTOUNDING level.

I also believe that at least 2/3rds of Trump voters really don’t like him but vote simply because they have such disdain for the elites. The system is rigged by the 2 parties so we only have a choice between them. So…divided we fall…

What I find fascinating is how easy the trigger word of "elites" is used to short-circuit people's critical thinking skills. As though there is some "liberal elite" cabal of out-of touch voters who were all born on the east coast with daddy's money and silver spoons in their mouths. (You know. Like Donald Trump?)

When in reality, liberals as a whole are a pretty diverse group, who happen to generally prefer to live in more populous and diverse areas, but not all on the east coast, and not all coming from money. Like, lots and lots of us come exactly from the areas that most Trumpers live in now. I know I did. And yeah, I left. Because of lack of opportunity and not wanting to live in a corn field. Why does that somehow mean I'm "elite" and out of touch? What makes us "elite," exactly? That we made something of ourselves? Isn't that what we're supposed to be doing?

It's like Schrodinger's liberal. At once an out of touch elite and a deadbeat on welfare.

Not to mention... elite is good. Who do you want on your NFL team? The average joes who are obese on their couches? Or do you wan the elite athletes? Who do you want running the companies you have shares in? Someone who dropped out of highschool or an elite thinker etc? Same with political leaders... being an average person isn't a virtue, and they shouldn't be something to aspire to in our political leadership.

A good way to think of the stupidity—the damage elites do to their own cause—can be summed up with the joke—How can you tell the toothbrush was invented in Alabama?

It’s the holier than thou attitude; the superiority; the basket of deplorables; the unwanted paternalistic solutions to socioeconomic dislocation; and the smug dismissal of the religious by the confident atheist who appears hoisted by his own petard.

Maslow missed a big one: People need to be respected. And when they ID a group they think constantly looks down their noses at them, they react violently.

Because anyplace else would have named it a teethbrush? It’s the attitude, stupid.

People don't need to be respected. They need oxygen. Respect is optional.

Yes, well that’s true when need is defined in the short term. Then they need water, then food, etc.

But I’m more interested in the MAGA-mindset toward voting for Trump or similar cartoon characters, as a reaction to perceived disrespect. Some of these people will tell you they love it when Trump says something completely unPC and crazy because they know it annoys the Dem elites and that the liberal new media will make a complete news cycle out of it to inflame their listeners.

When reasonable Harris and horror-story Trump are in a dead heat, I see it more as a failure of the Dems than a success of the GOP. It seems obvious that many elected GOP officials are really tired of Trump’s antics and wish he’d go away, but they support him because their base wants him to stay on the attack.

Respect is real. If you shoot someone’s dog, you may be legally liable for the cost of the dog, but the owner may have his own response…

[nereo]

Can we just acknowledge the extreme hypocrisy of someone consistently blaming the (using their words here) “WOKE,  smug, liberal elites…” who are “the dumbest” for the behavior of another group, while simultaneously arguing that we should not denigrate a political side?

[twinstudy]

Yes, well that’s true when need is defined in the short term. Then they need water, then food, etc.

But I’m more interested in the MAGA-mindset toward voting for Trump or similar cartoon characters, as a reaction to perceived disrespect. Some of these people will tell you they love it when Trump says something completely unPC and crazy because they know it annoys the Dem elites and that the liberal new media will make a complete news cycle out of it to inflame their listeners.

When reasonable Harris and horror-story Trump are in a dead heat, I see it more as a failure of the Dems than a success of the GOP. It seems obvious that many elected GOP officials are really tired of Trump’s antics and wish he’d go away, but they support him because their base wants him to stay on the attack.

Respect is real. If you shoot someone’s dog, you may be legally liable for the cost of the dog, but the owner may have his own response…

Except shooting someone's dog is criminal and opens you up to civil and criminal penalties. Making someone's life shit because that person has no skills and can't compete in a neoliberal society has no penalties. The only thing the person can do is lash out, and while that can cause discomfort in the short term (Trump style politics), it's a completely impotent thing in the long term. America's upper middle class has never had it better. If there's some sort of civil war or insurrection then I know which side has the better armaments. But the reality is that the "person with the shot dog" is likely to have some completely ineffectual response which is more self-harming than anything.

[Ron Scott]

Making someone's life shit because that person has no skills and can't compete in a neoliberal society has no penalties. The only thing the person can do is lash out, and while that can cause discomfort in the short term (Trump style politics), it's a completely impotent thing in the long term.

Yes, a good thought. Tony Blair just commented on Fareed’s show about something that made me think of this:

He said that democracy today faces a challenge of efficacy, of proving it can solve real problems and pave a strong path forward. If politicians can’t present a compelling view of getting past current obstacles and moving forward, people will turn to populism and charismatic figures with grandiose rhetoric.

The economy has been difficult for those who entered adult life in the aftermath of the Great Recession. Between slow career starts and a housing crisis, American became a different place than it was before. And the world has changed too, with the rise of China determined to challenge The West and the empire-seeking behavior of Russia.

To the extent voters hear compelling plans from candidates to move us through these difficulties and into a better future they’ll be hopeful. But if candidates avoid specifics for fear of losing half a percent, and strategize by making emotional please instead, we can expect more MAGA and less stability.

[RetiredAt63]

Making someone's life shit because that person has no skills and can't compete in a neoliberal society has no penalties. The only thing the person can do is lash out, and while that can cause discomfort in the short term (Trump style politics), it's a completely impotent thing in the long term.

Yes, a good thought. Tony Blair just commented on Fareed’s show about something that made me think of this:

He said that democracy today faces a challenge of efficacy, of proving it can solve real problems and pave a strong path forward. If politicians can’t present a compelling view of getting past current obstacles and moving forward, people will turn to populism and charismatic figures with grandiose rhetoric.

The economy has been difficult for those who entered adult life in the aftermath of the Great Recession. Between slow career starts and a housing crisis, American became a different place than it was before. And the world has changed too, with the rise of China determined to challenge The West and the empire-seeking behavior of Russia.

To the extent voters hear compelling plans from candidates to move us through these difficulties and into a better future they’ll be hopeful. But if candidates avoid specifics for fear of losing half a percent, and strategize by making emotional please instead, we can expect more MAGA and less stability.

Once Canada had a Nobel Peace Prize winner (Suez Crisis) become Prime Minister.  Quiet, effective, not charismatic.  Pearson, for those who remember that far back.

[Telecaster]

But if candidates avoid specifics for fear of losing half a percent, and strategize by making emotional please instead, we can expect more MAGA and less stability.

"I have concepts of a plan."

[sixwings]

But if candidates avoid specifics for fear of losing half a percent, and strategize by making emotional please instead, we can expect more MAGA and less stability.

"I have concepts of a plan."

Yeah the problem is that most problems and solutions are complicated, need to be thought about and implemented years or decades in advance, and don't come to fruition quickly, and that people want simple solutions now. As a result you end up with stupid problems and stupid solutions.

Climate change is a very good example. 

[blue_green_sparks]

But if candidates avoid specifics for fear of losing half a percent, and strategize by making emotional please instead, we can expect more MAGA and less stability.

"I have concepts of a plan."

Yeah the problem is that most problems and solutions are complicated, need to be thought about and implemented years or decades in advance, and don't come to fruition quickly, and that people want simple solutions now. As a result you end up with stupid problems and stupid solutions.

Climate change is a very good example.

A whole lotta MAGA Republicans in the Florida panhandle, Georgia, and West-by-god North Carolina begging for Federal aid. Wait, what? Saw one wearing his moronic red MAGA hat, standing by his trailer in three feet of water, bitching about the slow response.

But still, global warming is a lie, we should abolish the deep state Feds, and the healing blood of Jesus is all they need. Thoughts and prayers engaged. Nothing at all will be learned.

This storm was unique in the amount of damage far from coastal areas. If anything, the Feds should put together a hurricane-specific response department, set up reasonably priced home insurance that will provide only to folks who relocate away from the coasts and flood prone areas. Actually, start to limit our vulnerability.

[sixwings]

But if candidates avoid specifics for fear of losing half a percent, and strategize by making emotional please instead, we can expect more MAGA and less stability.

"I have concepts of a plan."

Yeah the problem is that most problems and solutions are complicated, need to be thought about and implemented years or decades in advance, and don't come to fruition quickly, and that people want simple solutions now. As a result you end up with stupid problems and stupid solutions.

Climate change is a very good example.

A whole lotta MAGA Republicans in the Florida panhandle, Georgia, and West-by-god North Carolina begging for Federal aid. Wait, what? Saw one wearing his moronic red MAGA hat, standing by his trailer in three feet of water, bitching about the slow response.

But still, global warming is a lie, we should abolish the deep state Feds, and the healing blood of Jesus is all they need. Thoughts and prayers engaged. Nothing at all will be learned.

This storm was unique in the amount of damage far from coastal areas. If anything, the Feds should put together a hurricane-specific response department, set up reasonably priced home insurance that will provide only to folks who relocate away from the coasts and flood prone areas. Actually, start to limit our vulnerability.

"I don't need politics, I need thoughts, prayers and money from coastal elites and gays to rebuild! Also, fuck your feelings and fuck coastal elites!"

Ron Scott: "But guys we don't consider their feelings!"

[jrhampt]

I think that what I'm starting to realize is that anywhere can flood now.  In just the last few weeks, friends and family in a wide variety of locations and multiple continents have experienced flooding in 4 different disasters.  Some were places prone to flooding, but most had never flooded before, were not in flood plains, and would not have carried flood insurance.  Of those 4 different disasters, only 1 was related to a hurricane/tropical storm.  The other 3 were just "extreme rainfall" events.

[partgypsy]

A key aspect of Trump's populism is that even people like himself without clean pedigrees, a lifetime of relevant experience, or top-of-class grades can run for office against the "elites".  These "elites" speak in aristocratic terms, come from backgrounds that are inaccessible to most people, have salon-perfect hair, and look down upon politically uncouth behavior like porn habits, mistresses, and racist comments.

This is so true!

I would add that the elites, with all their education and supposed worldliness, are so stupid they’ve gotten themselves into a situation of their own making in which half the country or more seem willing to elect a complete moron when compared to their reasonable candidate. This is stupidity at an ASTOUNDING level.

I also believe that at least 2/3rds of Trump voters really don’t like him but vote simply because they have such disdain for the elites. The system is rigged by the 2 parties so we only have a choice between them. So…divided we fall…

What I find fascinating is how easily the trigger word of "elites" is used to short-circuit people's critical thinking skills. As though there is some "liberal elite" cabal of out-of touch voters who were all born on the east coast with daddy's money and silver spoons in their mouths. (You know. Like Donald Trump?)

When in reality, liberals as a whole are a pretty diverse group, who happen to generally prefer to live in more populous and diverse areas, but not all on the east coast, and not all coming from money. Like, lots and lots of us come exactly from the areas that most Trumpers live in now. I know I did. And yeah, I left. Because of lack of opportunity and not wanting to live in a corn field. Why does that somehow mean I'm "elite" and out of touch? What makes us "elite," exactly? That we made something of ourselves? Isn't that what we're supposed to be doing?

It's like Schrodinger's liberal. At once an out of touch elite and a deadbeat on welfare.

. I have a sister. We had all the same opportunities. She dropped out of college while I completed, went to grad school. I have: 100% supported myself since out of college. Primary breadwinner and career in my marriage and of my kids. Live in a fixer upper old house. A town that is 50% minority, and both work for and are friends from a wide range of socialeconomic and racial backgrounds. Otoh my sister works part time. Has not paid for rent by living with family during the past 15? Years, bc she otherwise would not be able to live in the expensive suburbs. Calls where I live crime ridden,unsafe and undesirable. Also tells me that liberals like me are "elitist" and "out of touch" and I don't know what it's like to struggle. Dude, we worked the same HS job. And somehow forgets all the years and years I was flat broke :/

Ps we are not voting against our self interests. Because past. I'm going to tell you a secret. Ready? AS a people and a country we all do better, when we all do better. Plus ethically, it's the right thing to do. We are a couple steps away, from seeing dead bodies lying in the streets, if we do not value humanity.

[Kris]

A key aspect of Trump's populism is that even people like himself without clean pedigrees, a lifetime of relevant experience, or top-of-class grades can run for office against the "elites".  These "elites" speak in aristocratic terms, come from backgrounds that are inaccessible to most people, have salon-perfect hair, and look down upon politically uncouth behavior like porn habits, mistresses, and racist comments.

This is so true!

I would add that the elites, with all their education and supposed worldliness, are so stupid they’ve gotten themselves into a situation of their own making in which half the country or more seem willing to elect a complete moron when compared to their reasonable candidate. This is stupidity at an ASTOUNDING level.

I also believe that at least 2/3rds of Trump voters really don’t like him but vote simply because they have such disdain for the elites. The system is rigged by the 2 parties so we only have a choice between them. So…divided we fall…

What I find fascinating is how easily the trigger word of "elites" is used to short-circuit people's critical thinking skills. As though there is some "liberal elite" cabal of out-of touch voters who were all born on the east coast with daddy's money and silver spoons in their mouths. (You know. Like Donald Trump?)

When in reality, liberals as a whole are a pretty diverse group, who happen to generally prefer to live in more populous and diverse areas, but not all on the east coast, and not all coming from money. Like, lots and lots of us come exactly from the areas that most Trumpers live in now. I know I did. And yeah, I left. Because of lack of opportunity and not wanting to live in a corn field. Why does that somehow mean I'm "elite" and out of touch? What makes us "elite," exactly? That we made something of ourselves? Isn't that what we're supposed to be doing?

It's like Schrodinger's liberal. At once an out of touch elite and a deadbeat on welfare.

. I have a sister. We had all the same opportunities. She dropped out of college while I completed, went to grad school. I have: 100% supported myself since out of college. Primary breadwinner and career in my marriage and of my kids. Live in a fixer upper old house. A town that is 50% minority, and both work for and are friends from a wide range of socialeconomic and racial backgrounds. Otoh my sister works part time. Has not paid for rent by living with family during the past 15? Years, bc she otherwise would not be able to live in the expensive suburbs. Calls where I live crime ridden,unsafe and undesirable. Also tells me that liberals like me are "elitist" and "out of touch" and I don't know what it's like to struggle. Dude, we worked the same HS job. And somehow forgets all the years and years I was flat broke :/

Ha. Yeah. Sounds like me vs. my cousins.

[nereo]

I’ve wondered how much of this stems from the decades-long propaganda campaign to label “real America/Americans” as being White, rural and Christian, which make up less than 10% of total US citizens.

If we use demographics to describe an ‘American’, they live inside a large metropolitan area (80%), likely within 100 miles of the coast (65%), and it’s basically a coin flip whether they are practicing Christians OR White.

[jinga nation]

I think that what I'm starting to realize is that anywhere can flood now.  In just the last few weeks, friends and family in a wide variety of locations and multiple continents have experienced flooding in 4 different disasters.  Some were places prone to flooding, but most had never flooded before, were not in flood plains, and would not have carried flood insurance.  Of those 4 different disasters, only 1 was related to a hurricane/tropical storm.  The other 3 were just "extreme rainfall" events.

NOAA's National Climate Data Center (NCDC) in Asheville, NC is offline. No power, no water, due to Hurricane Helene.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/09/were-only-beginning-to-understand-the-historic-nature-of-helenes-flooding/

Asheville, Buncombe County, and the greater area is a mess.

[Ron Scott]

A key aspect of Trump's populism is that even people like himself without clean pedigrees, a lifetime of relevant experience, or top-of-class grades can run for office against the "elites".  These "elites" speak in aristocratic terms, come from backgrounds that are inaccessible to most people, have salon-perfect hair, and look down upon politically uncouth behavior like porn habits, mistresses, and racist comments.

This is so true!

I would add that the elites, with all their education and supposed worldliness, are so stupid they’ve gotten themselves into a situation of their own making in which half the country or more seem willing to elect a complete moron when compared to their reasonable candidate. This is stupidity at an ASTOUNDING level.

I also believe that at least 2/3rds of Trump voters really don’t like him but vote simply because they have such disdain for the elites. The system is rigged by the 2 parties so we only have a choice between them. So…divided we fall…

What I find fascinating is how easily the trigger word of "elites" is used to short-circuit people's critical thinking skills. As though there is some "liberal elite" cabal of out-of touch voters who were all born on the east coast with daddy's money and silver spoons in their mouths. (You know. Like Donald Trump?)

When in reality, liberals as a whole are a pretty diverse group, who happen to generally prefer to live in more populous and diverse areas, but not all on the east coast, and not all coming from money. Like, lots and lots of us come exactly from the areas that most Trumpers live in now. I know I did. And yeah, I left. Because of lack of opportunity and not wanting to live in a corn field. Why does that somehow mean I'm "elite" and out of touch? What makes us "elite," exactly? That we made something of ourselves? Isn't that what we're supposed to be doing?

It's like Schrodinger's liberal. At once an out of touch elite and a deadbeat on welfare.

. I have a sister. We had all the same opportunities. She dropped out of college while I completed, went to grad school. I have: 100% supported myself since out of college. Primary breadwinner and career in my marriage and of my kids. Live in a fixer upper old house. A town that is 50% minority, and both work for and are friends from a wide range of socialeconomic and racial backgrounds. Otoh my sister works part time. Has not paid for rent by living with family during the past 15? Years, bc she otherwise would not be able to live in the expensive suburbs. Calls where I live crime ridden,unsafe and undesirable. Also tells me that liberals like me are "elitist" and "out of touch" and I don't know what it's like to struggle. Dude, we worked the same HS job. And somehow forgets all the years and years I was flat broke :/

Ha. Yeah. Sounds like me vs. my cousins.

I do get your point. When I use the word elite in a political context I believe I’m using it in the popularly accepted context, with negative connotations of wokeness, holier-than-thou attitudes, a fixation on progressive social issues, a visceral disgust for those who would even THINK of voting for Trump, etc. (As a small l liberal, I am exasperated by these people.)

FWIW, I also react negatively to those who call MAGA-types “conservative”. Hell, I’m more conservative than most of them. I see them as reactionary (hoping for a rerun of a past that didn’t really exist the way they talk about it now), and angry (at woke elites, who they see as perpetuating the decline of the middle class while they talk a good game).

But that’s me…

[Kris]

A key aspect of Trump's populism is that even people like himself without clean pedigrees, a lifetime of relevant experience, or top-of-class grades can run for office against the "elites".  These "elites" speak in aristocratic terms, come from backgrounds that are inaccessible to most people, have salon-perfect hair, and look down upon politically uncouth behavior like porn habits, mistresses, and racist comments.

This is so true!

I would add that the elites, with all their education and supposed worldliness, are so stupid they’ve gotten themselves into a situation of their own making in which half the country or more seem willing to elect a complete moron when compared to their reasonable candidate. This is stupidity at an ASTOUNDING level.

I also believe that at least 2/3rds of Trump voters really don’t like him but vote simply because they have such disdain for the elites. The system is rigged by the 2 parties so we only have a choice between them. So…divided we fall…

What I find fascinating is how easily the trigger word of "elites" is used to short-circuit people's critical thinking skills. As though there is some "liberal elite" cabal of out-of touch voters who were all born on the east coast with daddy's money and silver spoons in their mouths. (You know. Like Donald Trump?)

When in reality, liberals as a whole are a pretty diverse group, who happen to generally prefer to live in more populous and diverse areas, but not all on the east coast, and not all coming from money. Like, lots and lots of us come exactly from the areas that most Trumpers live in now. I know I did. And yeah, I left. Because of lack of opportunity and not wanting to live in a corn field. Why does that somehow mean I'm "elite" and out of touch? What makes us "elite," exactly? That we made something of ourselves? Isn't that what we're supposed to be doing?

It's like Schrodinger's liberal. At once an out of touch elite and a deadbeat on welfare.

. I have a sister. We had all the same opportunities. She dropped out of college while I completed, went to grad school. I have: 100% supported myself since out of college. Primary breadwinner and career in my marriage and of my kids. Live in a fixer upper old house. A town that is 50% minority, and both work for and are friends from a wide range of socialeconomic and racial backgrounds. Otoh my sister works part time. Has not paid for rent by living with family during the past 15? Years, bc she otherwise would not be able to live in the expensive suburbs. Calls where I live crime ridden,unsafe and undesirable. Also tells me that liberals like me are "elitist" and "out of touch" and I don't know what it's like to struggle. Dude, we worked the same HS job. And somehow forgets all the years and years I was flat broke :/

Ha. Yeah. Sounds like me vs. my cousins.

I do get your point. When I use the word elite in a political context I believe I’m using it in the popularly accepted context, with negative connotations of wokeness, holier-than-thou attitudes, a fixation on progressive social issues, a visceral disgust for those who would even THINK of voting for Trump, etc. (As a small l liberal, I am exasperated by these people.)

FWIW, I also react negatively to those who call MAGA-types “conservative”. Hell, I’m more conservative than most of them. I see them as reactionary (hoping for a rerun of a past that didn’t really exist the way they talk about it now), and angry (at woke elites, who they see as perpetuating the decline of the middle class while they talk a good game).

But that’s me…

Then you should get the point that those "elites" are a silly boogeyman constructed by a right-wing propaganda machine. Consider that when you repeat the word over and over in your own criticisms of liberals, you are contributing to that propaganda.

[PKFFW]

Then you should get the point that those "elites" are a silly boogeyman constructed by a right-wing propaganda machine. Consider that when you repeat the word over and over in your own criticisms of liberals, you are contributing to that propaganda.

Trump on how to stop shoplifting: "If you had one really violent day, or one rough hour, and I mean really rough, it would end immediately"

Ron Scott: "Yeah, but the Dems aren't giving us their policy ideas in more detail"

[Ron Scott]

To the 2 posters above I have to laugh at how bought into the party line these folks are…constantly leaping to the defense of their Bluejays. Even when someone says they’re a NeverTrumper who plans to vote for their candidate it’s not enough. You haven to deify her and demonize her opponent at every turn. Any criticism against her or any leeway given to the opposition must be immediately shot down, with sarcasm or whatever internet gotcha line is in vogue.

Guys, I really don’t care—keep it up. (And do us a favor? Stay away from the undecideds…? You’re one of the reasons Trump still gets votes LOL.)

[Kris]

To the 2 posters above I have to laugh at how bought into the party line these folks are…constantly leaping to the defense of their Bluejays. Even when someone says they’re a NeverTrumper who plans to vote for their candidate it’s not enough. You haven to deify her and demonize her opponent at every turn. Any criticism against her or any leeway given to the opposition must be immediately shot down, with sarcasm or whatever internet gotcha line is in vogue.

Guys, I really don’t care—keep it up. (And do us a favor? Stay away from the undecideds…? You’re one of the reasons Trump still gets votes LOL.)

Please show me the deifying of Kamala Harris in this thread, done by me or anyone else.

[PKFFW]

To the 2 posters above I have to laugh at how bought into the party line these folks are…constantly leaping to the defense of their Bluejays. Even when someone says they’re a NeverTrumper who plans to vote for their candidate it’s not enough. You haven to deify her and demonize her opponent at every turn. Any criticism against her or any leeway given to the opposition must be immediately shot down, with sarcasm or whatever internet gotcha line is in vogue.

Guys, I really don’t care—keep it up. (And do us a favor? Stay away from the undecideds…? You’re one of the reasons Trump still gets votes LOL.)

Criticism is completely valid. But constantly claiming Trump still gets votes, even after suggesting implementing the plot line of the movie The Purge would be a good thing, is because the Dems are not explaining their policies well enough is just farcical.

Farcical enough to make me think you are not, as you claim, a "NeverTrumper".

[twinstudy]

To the 2 posters above I have to laugh at how bought into the party line these folks are…constantly leaping to the defense of their Bluejays. Even when someone says they’re a NeverTrumper who plans to vote for their candidate it’s not enough. You haven to deify her and demonize her opponent at every turn. Any criticism against her or any leeway given to the opposition must be immediately shot down, with sarcasm or whatever internet gotcha line is in vogue.

Guys, I really don’t care—keep it up. (And do us a favor? Stay away from the undecideds…? You’re one of the reasons Trump still gets votes LOL.)

I'm not deifying Kamala. I'm not even demonising Trump. I'm demonising the people who vote for him.

But those people will be brought to heel one way or another. I'm not as nice as some of the other "liberal elites" in this regard.

[Kris]

I just want to assert that the “deifying of Harris” comment should be entirely dismissed out of hand until some sort of evidence is shown to back it up in any way.

My sense is that we will be waiting for a while.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

I enjoyed and walked away from the VP debate feeling somewhat good about American politics for once.  Trump has so dominated the Republican party voice that it was refreshing to hear a Republican that didn't just push my buttons non stop than say I had a derangement syndrome...  After banging on my head with a hammer for 8 years, amazing how good it feels when it stops, if only for one night.

[partgypsy]

Just think how good it will feel when he is completely out of politics and has left the room. And the adults can talk.

[Metalcat]

I just want to assert that the “deifying of Harris” comment should be entirely dismissed out of hand until some sort of evidence is shown to back it up in any way.

My sense is that we will be waiting for a while.

Does having a shrine in my bathroom count?? Or are human sacrifices requires to prove my devotion to Kamala as my one true God??

[GuitarStv]

I just want to assert that the “deifying of Harris” comment should be entirely dismissed out of hand until some sort of evidence is shown to back it up in any way.

My sense is that we will be waiting for a while.

Does having a shrine in my bathroom count?? Or are human sacrifices requires to prove my devotion to Kamala as my one true God??

I think you have to be sacrificing children in a satanic ritual and then harvesting their blood for adrenochrome to stay young forever.  Y'know.  Standard operating procedure for Democrats.

[Metalcat]

I just want to assert that the “deifying of Harris” comment should be entirely dismissed out of hand until some sort of evidence is shown to back it up in any way.

My sense is that we will be waiting for a while.

Does having a shrine in my bathroom count?? Or are human sacrifices requires to prove my devotion to Kamala as my one true God??

I think you have to be sacrificing children in a satanic ritual and then harvesting their blood for adrenochrome to stay young forever.  Y'know.  Standard operating procedure for Democrats.

I mean, obviously!

[sixwings]

I just want to assert that the “deifying of Harris” comment should be entirely dismissed out of hand until some sort of evidence is shown to back it up in any way.

My sense is that we will be waiting for a while.

Does having a shrine in my bathroom count?? Or are human sacrifices requires to prove my devotion to Kamala as my one true God??

I think you have to be sacrificing children in a satanic ritual and then harvesting their blood for adrenochrome to stay young forever.  Y'know.  Standard operating procedure for Democrats.

What about using the "fur babies" of people in springfield instead? Will that work?

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

I enjoyed and walked away from the VP debate feeling somewhat good about American politics for once.  Trump has so dominated the Republican party voice that it was refreshing to hear a Republican that didn't just push my buttons non stop than say I had a derangement syndrome...  After banging on my head with a hammer for 8 years, amazing how good it feels when it stops, if only for one night.

The thing that really gets under my skin about Vance is the fact that he's perfectly capable of being reasonable and intelligent but has decided to throw his lot in with the nutcases to gain power. He knows better and he's going along with it anyway.

So I don't feel a lot better when he plays nice. That's still the guy who decided it would be in his own interest to join up with the man he once called "America's Hitler."

Agreed. Vance is more than capable of knowing who he's allied with. It's tempting to think he's more reasonable, but I'm not convinced.

[sixwings]

I enjoyed and walked away from the VP debate feeling somewhat good about American politics for once.  Trump has so dominated the Republican party voice that it was refreshing to hear a Republican that didn't just push my buttons non stop than say I had a derangement syndrome...  After banging on my head with a hammer for 8 years, amazing how good it feels when it stops, if only for one night.

The thing that really gets under my skin about Vance is the fact that he's perfectly capable of being reasonable and intelligent but has decided to throw his lot in with the nutcases to gain power. He knows better and he's going along with it anyway.

So I don't feel a lot better when he plays nice. That's still the guy who decided it would be in his own interest to join up with the man he once called "America's Hitler."

Agreed. Vance is more than capable of knowing who he's allied with. It's tempting to think he's more reasonable, but I'm not convinced.

Vance is not a moderate, his views are very extreme, he just can speak in coherent sentences in a way that is more disarming. His views are probably more extreme than Trumps. Like in general Trump doesn't care about policy at all, he doesn't care what happens with abortion, like whether it's legal or not, he just gives 0 Fs about any of that stuff. Vance is VERY anti-abortion to the point where he has publicly stated that the role of women is to have children and the role of grandmas is to help look after the grandkids.

It's interesting how "moderate" is used to describe right wing politicians who are able to speak in coherent sentences and in some cases care about upholding democracy. Like the Cheneys, Vance, Kinzinger, Amash, Flake, Bolton etc. These were NOT moderate in their political views, but they don't like Trump or speak like him so they get labelled as a moderate. The window has shifted so far to the right that war criminal Dick Fucking Cheney is a moderate now.

However, Vance seeming reasonable may make look Trump look even worse, and I'm here for the shitshow that'll cause in the Trump campaign!

[RetiredAt63]

I enjoyed and walked away from the VP debate feeling somewhat good about American politics for once.  Trump has so dominated the Republican party voice that it was refreshing to hear a Republican that didn't just push my buttons non stop than say I had a derangement syndrome...  After banging on my head with a hammer for 8 years, amazing how good it feels when it stops, if only for one night.

The thing that really gets under my skin about Vance is the fact that he's perfectly capable of being reasonable and intelligent but has decided to throw his lot in with the nutcases to gain power. He knows better and he's going along with it anyway.

So I don't feel a lot better when he plays nice. That's still the guy who decided it would be in his own interest to join up with the man he once called "America's Hitler."

Agreed. Vance is more than capable of knowing who he's allied with. It's tempting to think he's more reasonable, but I'm not convinced.

Vance is not a moderate, his views are very extreme, he just can speak in coherent sentences in a way that is more disarming. His views are probably more extreme than Trumps. Like in general Trump doesn't care about policy at all, he doesn't care what happens with abortion, like whether it's legal or not, he just gives 0 Fs about any of that stuff. Vance is VERY anti-abortion to the point where he has publicly stated that the role of women is to have children and the role of grandmas is to help look after the grandkids.

It's interesting how "moderate" is used to describe right wing politicians who are able to speak in coherent sentences and in some cases care about upholding democracy. Like the Cheneys, Vance, Kinzinger, Amash, Flake, Bolton etc. These were NOT moderate in their political views, but they don't like Trump or speak like him so they get labelled as a moderate. The window has shifted so far to the right that war criminal Dick Fucking Cheney is a moderate now.

However, Vance seeming reasonable may make look Trump look even worse, and I'm here for the shitshow that'll cause in the Trump campaign!

Vance recent said women should stay in physically abusive marriages.  Not all that moderate.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

I enjoyed and walked away from the VP debate feeling somewhat good about American politics for once.  Trump has so dominated the Republican party voice that it was refreshing to hear a Republican that didn't just push my buttons non stop than say I had a derangement syndrome...  After banging on my head with a hammer for 8 years, amazing how good it feels when it stops, if only for one night.

The thing that really gets under my skin about Vance is the fact that he's perfectly capable of being reasonable and intelligent but has decided to throw his lot in with the nutcases to gain power. He knows better and he's going along with it anyway.

So I don't feel a lot better when he plays nice. That's still the guy who decided it would be in his own interest to join up with the man he once called "America's Hitler."

Before the debate, JD Vance had terrible "favorability ratings", in that more people disliked him than liked him.  Vance used the debate to look more friendly, and in that regard it looks like he succeeded.

Had something dramatic happened at the Vice Presidential Debate, it might have mattered.  But with most people scoring it a tie (Vance won first half, Walz second half), it won't likely impact the Presidential race.  There may have been one sound bite worthy of a commercial (when Vance refuses to answer if Donald Trump lost the 2020 election).

[EscapeVelocity2020]

Just to be clear, I'm not at all thrilled by Vance being anywhere near the Presidential Oval Office (and I do think there is a much greater than non-zero chance Trump's VP could wind up as President)...  I just find him to be less unsettling than the Alex Jones level madness that Trump represents for me.  I can't listen to Trump for an extended period, then fret that I'm not able to even stay informed on what he's up to.

Great points that far right conservatives have become 'moderate' in this MAGA age.