Author Topic: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?  (Read 59255 times)

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #750 on: October 27, 2017, 10:14:45 AM »
If you're calculating based on take home pay, in theory you could reach 100%...your employer 401k match + HSA contribution could equal your expenses.  Say they contribute $35k to your 401k (unlikely) and $3k to your HSA - that's $38k of savings right there.  It's possible I guess, but I highly doubt there's anyone out there in that situation.

My goal for this year is to save 100% of my post tax salary for my main job. I'm calling it a 100*% savings rate where the "*" stands for clearly cheating. I hope I won't be considered soft or clueless. Also, I'm cheating by using a different tax system to you!

Edited to clarify: I'm not counting gains or dividends from investments, only new money saved.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2017, 11:52:39 PM by Playing with Fire UK »

DarkandStormy

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #751 on: October 27, 2017, 11:31:43 AM »
^No not at all.  As long as you don't count moving cash to investments as "savings." LOL.

Jealous of your 100% plan!
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Dabnasty

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #752 on: October 27, 2017, 11:56:45 AM »
I've always assumed 401k match is counted as income and I want to know what % of my income I save vs. spend. Those two numbers should add up to 100% I guess if you really want to know what % of your on paper salary is going into your savings accounts you wouldn't count match but I don't see much use for that number.

Unless you just like playing with maths in which case, carry on.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #753 on: October 27, 2017, 08:50:31 PM »
If you're calculating based on take home pay, in theory you could reach 100%...your employer 401k match + HSA contribution could equal your expenses.  Say they contribute $35k to your 401k (unlikely) and $3k to your HSA - that's $38k of savings right there.  It's possible I guess, but I highly doubt there's anyone out there in that situation.

My goal for this year is to save 100% of my post tax salary for my main job. I'm calling it a 100*% savings rate where the "*" stands for clearly cheating. I hope I won't be considered soft or clueless. Also, I'm cheating by using a different tax system to you!

It's probably me being soft (or lazy) but I don't claim a 100% saving rate although my passive income (dividends, interest) is higher than my annual spending.  In a sense, I could withdraw those funds and shove all of my after-tax pay back in to investments, but that would just be silly.

For example, if I bring home 100k and spend 60k, I have a 40% saving rate.  I may have a 5MM portfolio that yields 2%, so 100k passive income, but that seems too much like cheating.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2017, 09:14:55 PM by EscapeVelocity2020 »
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Canadian Ben

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #754 on: October 27, 2017, 08:52:45 PM »
But that income does count when you are looking at SR to FIRE, the income from your passive investments will cut down your time, so counting it as income is not incorrect.

the 80% savings rate for 5.5 years is valid if the person saves 70% of their income, and gets another 10% extra from investments, bringing them up to a 80% SR.

boarder42

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #755 on: October 28, 2017, 05:07:45 AM »
Savings rates are a hook from the shockingly simple math. Manipulate them anyway you will but they aren't too relevant once you understand everything else about FIRE
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human

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #756 on: October 28, 2017, 05:36:48 AM »
I'm chiming in to say yes it has gone soft. Someone cries about needing a bigger hous and everyone pets them and encourages them to follow their heart. Check out the comparison is the thief of joy thread. Instead of telling op to make do and get real help for her problems everyone just enables her. Maybe I went a little far and I did get modded. Facepunching is a little hard if you have to be all polite about it

3 warnings so far, not sure if I'm really cut out for facepunching. People juat want to be told what they want to hear.

Laura33

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #757 on: October 28, 2017, 07:30:47 AM »
I'm chiming in to say yes it has gone soft. Someone cries about needing a bigger hous and everyone pets them and encourages them to follow their heart. Check out the comparison is the thief of joy thread. Instead of telling op to make do and get real help for her problems everyone just enables her. Maybe I went a little far and I did get modded. Facepunching is a little hard if you have to be all polite about it

3 warnings so far, not sure if I'm really cut out for facepunching. People juat want to be told what they want to hear.

Dude, she was living in a basement.  With cockroaches.  For nine years.  To save up for a $180k house.  And she was tired of it, but not willing to increase her budget because it would impact her savings.  If that is soft, MMM himself is soft.

And there's a difference between facepunching and being an asshole.
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human

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #758 on: October 28, 2017, 07:45:03 AM »
That's the biggest problem with this forum. Millions and millions of your fellow americans making below the median salary for the country live like this. I lived like this when I made no money. Don't put all your hopes in ahouse!!

Their income is not going to increase any time soon they are better offinvesting then saving forever to buy a house. You're not doing her any favours.

Tass

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #759 on: October 28, 2017, 09:07:06 AM »
Their income is not going to increase any time soon they are better offinvesting then saving forever to buy a house.

Maybe to maximize your net worth. But the point of MMM isn't to maximize your net worth, otherwise no one would FIRE.

Edit: I think that's the problem we're running into, actually. The point is to maximize your happiness, but that includes being realistic about what makes you happy, which does not mean indulging every want. It means being serious about evaluating what will genuinely improve your life and keeping sight of the psychology of happiness through the haze of consumerist stuff.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2017, 09:14:06 AM by Tass »

human

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #760 on: October 28, 2017, 09:14:41 AM »
Not sure I get your point, you can't FIRE when you are house poor which is where these people are headed. A house is not an asset that can easily be converted into cash to pay for living expenses while investments are.

Tass

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #761 on: October 28, 2017, 03:34:56 PM »
I don't know what specific thread you're referring to, I'm just commenting on general principles.

human

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #762 on: October 28, 2017, 03:58:56 PM »
Still not sure what principles you are referring to, you need something to draw from when you aren't working or are you going to reverse mortgage your house?

marty998

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #763 on: October 28, 2017, 04:25:17 PM »
Still not sure what principles you are referring to, you need something to draw from when you aren't working or are you going to reverse mortgage your house?

Mate, MMM is not about living in a roach infested basement. A $180k house is not the end of the world in terms of FIRE, and I'll bet a significant chunk of the forum lives in residences worth significant multiples of that.

Having a high value house (in markets that appreciate in value) does not make you house poor. I personally view it view it as an investment that one day you can use to downsize.

Ask any homeowner in Sydney, London, Vancouver, SF Bay, New York etc etc and you'll get a very different perspective to your own.

Open your mind.

Laura33

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #764 on: October 28, 2017, 04:39:33 PM »
You're not doing her any favours.

Neither are you.  Someone says "I've been saving and sacrificing for X for nine years, and now I find it's still not enough, and I'm upset, so how can I get over being upset?" 

Option 1:  "You're stupid for wanting X, so stop whining."

Option 2:  "That's hard [a/k/a empathy].  You are doing the right thing not increasing your budget.  Why do you want X?  Maybe you don't actually need X to give you that.  So think about how you can achieve the most important things that X would give you in some other way that will cost less."

Which do you think most human beings will be more likely to listen to?
 
If you're here to make yourself feel superior by bashing people who live in a worse situation than you, feel free to continue to follow option 1.  But if you are in fact trying to help, you might want to start by not repeatedly calling someone an idiot for wanting to live somewhere that is above-ground and doesn't have cockroaches.*  Really, that's a pretty low bar.

Tl;dr:  if "wanting something better than a cockroach-infested basement apartment" and "wanting to own a $150k home" is the standard for "soft," then the vast majority of people on this board don't belong.  And if people responding with "good job sticking to your budget, maybe you get a slightly nicer apartment that still costs less than a house while you keep saving and looking" is the best example of the community going soft that you can think of, well, you might just have proved the opposite.

*This is especially true when you personally have chosen to get out of those very circumstances, and there is not one whit of evidence that the OP can't afford to make the same choice.  You said yourself you used to live in that kind of place.  But you don't any more -- once you could afford better, you apparently got the hell out of Dodge.  If roach-infested basements are so awesome, why aren't you still living in one?
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human

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #765 on: October 28, 2017, 06:14:45 PM »
You gotta read the real situation not live in blog land where some white guy with a mustache plays nouveau jesus and does a post about 50k a year jobs and suddenly everything will change for the better.

She was crying in her cups and not going to be changing her situation any time soon. All I saw on that thread was keep house hunting you'll find your magical place soon. No help at all.

Yes I lived in not so great digs but it's always liveable. I even told her to dump her shit and quit hoarding but that got modded down. Real facepunches aren't really welcome anymore.

arebelspy

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #766 on: October 29, 2017, 09:29:47 PM »
MOD NOTE:
Gonna go ahead and lock this thread, it has served its purpose.

Some people think the forums are now too soft.

Some think it's too mean, with unnecessary face punches.

It's a delicate balance.

The bottom line: If someone is asking for advice, when you reply, think of the phrase "tough love"--that doesn't include being a jerk, but it does include giving them a dose of reality.  If it's in the journal section, be even nicer.

If you think someone is trolling, being rude, etc., please use the button on the bottom right of the post to "report to moderators" (big thank you to those who do this.)

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