Author Topic: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?  (Read 98090 times)

Kris

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #700 on: October 20, 2017, 08:08:45 AM »
There's a thread running currently that illustrates the free pass for gratuitous travel that people get here - the "shall I go to Vietnam/Cambodia or Bali on holiday?" one.

Everyone is congratulating the OP instead of delivering a giant facepunch for wasting money whilst screwing the environment.
Explain again why someone pursuing their dream of travel after saving for retirement needs " a giant face punch "? 

Per the above post about wanting to exist in a society with thoughtful people who support each other rather than waste, I abhore the embracing of violent metaphors for something obviously not destructive or wrong.  Perhaps I dont belong.   If this is a forum becomes a site for militant anti consumption using violence as an acceptable mechanism or even metaphoric violence, rather than thoughful self-determination, I will withdraw from many threads.

Note that the next step after violent speech is violent action.   I live in a community where folks claiming to be fighting for affordable housing have escalated from squating in tents in public spaces (occupy), which by the way they systematically trash, to setting fires in new developments they deem buildings for the rich, destroying whole city blocks.  I have seen a lot of aggressive posts that worry me, though we have excellemt moderators keeping it within reason.  Thanks for their hard work.

Look, I get it, but given that one of Pete/MMM's best-known catch phrases is giving someone who needs an attitude adjustment a "facepunch", then yeah, I'd say you're probably on the wrong forum if you don't like that phrase.

dougules

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #701 on: October 20, 2017, 10:31:44 AM »
There's a thread running currently that illustrates the free pass for gratuitous travel that people get here - the "shall I go to Vietnam/Cambodia or Bali on holiday?" one.

Everyone is congratulating the OP instead of delivering a giant facepunch for wasting money whilst screwing the environment.

In that person's sort-of defense, full disclosure of "Un-Mustachian" is in the title. 

Dicey

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #702 on: October 20, 2017, 11:12:08 AM »
Do that many people not understand the difference between a metaphorical facepunch and actual violence?


GuitarStv

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #703 on: October 20, 2017, 11:27:49 AM »
Do that many people not understand the difference between a metaphorical facepunch and actual violence?

It really seems that way.  You should have to answer a test made up of questions from the first couple years of MMM's blog posts to join this forum . . . I think we could solve most of the problems outlined in this thread that way.

Optimiser

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #704 on: October 20, 2017, 12:05:57 PM »
Do that many people not understand the difference between a metaphorical facepunch and actual violence?

It really seems that way.  You should have to answer a test made up of questions from the first couple years of MMM's blog posts to join this forum . . . I think we could solve most of the problems outlined in this thread that way.

I like this idea

Kris

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #705 on: October 20, 2017, 12:37:37 PM »
Do that many people not understand the difference between a metaphorical facepunch and actual violence?

It really seems that way.  You should have to answer a test made up of questions from the first couple years of MMM's blog posts to join this forum . . . I think we could solve most of the problems outlined in this thread that way.

Haha -- I started a post a couple of days ago saying this exact same thing.

nereo

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #706 on: October 20, 2017, 07:55:05 PM »
well said PizzaSteve.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #707 on: October 20, 2017, 09:04:37 PM »
In line with PSteve's comment, it is very much like this commentary on why PewDiePie's Fiverr joke failed (the one where he paid people in a 3rd world country to dance around with a sign 'Death to All Jews').  Basically, Pete / MMM sets up his 'facepunch' with a thought out criticism on a 'mainstream' accepted lifestyle choice.  The fact that it ends with a 'facepunch' exclamation does not then feel threatening, more like a wake-up call, although the argument and ultimate facepunch might otherwise seem 'extreme' and uncomfortable for some.  Contrast that to someone that jumps straight in to ridiculing and facepunching someone and you see why that is not advancing the 'cause' and could make others 'not in on the joke' (and even those that get it) somewhat uncomfortable.   

Easiest thing is to move on entirely from the facepunching and name-calling now that there is a critical mass, which mostly seems to be the case for the blog and what few parts of the forum that I have seen lately.  Otherwise you risk the Fiverr scenario, even from MMM-himself, which just sucks for everyone.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 09:41:48 PM by EscapeVelocity2020 »

Dabnasty

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #708 on: October 20, 2017, 09:39:03 PM »
What i dont like are agressively rude posters who hide behind the facepunch metaphor when they are just argumentative and critical people, in general, often with their own personal agenda or chip on their shoulder (especially with respect to wealth distribution).

A perfect example.  Person A says they dont like the use of a metaphor based on a violent act. Person B says, well someone who cant tell the difference between a true violent act and a metaphor doesnt belong here.
I don't see how this is an example of the scenario you described at all. I think you were offended by Person B (who is obviously Kris) and are hiding behind an "example" to retaliate :)

But seriously, I'm pretty sure most of us agree on the point you're trying to make, the first post just didn't get that point across. You want a more analytical conversation as opposed to "I disagree with your use of funds→FACEPUNCH!!!!"

And I never saw any indication that SpreadsheetMan's comment was anything other than metaphorical (although maybe bit self righteous). Didn't read the thread so maybe I'm missing something?

Dicey

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #709 on: October 21, 2017, 07:22:03 AM »
What i dont like are agressively rude posters who hide behind the facepunch metaphor when they are just argumentative and critical people, in general, often with their own personal agenda or chip on their shoulder (especially with respect to wealth distribution).

A perfect example.  Person A says they dont like the use of a metaphor based on a violent act. Person B says, well someone who cant tell the difference between a true violent act and a metaphor doesnt belong here.
...You want a more analytical conversation...
Has anyone read Pizza Steve's current siggy line? It's clear that he's not actually seeking "conversation", analytical or otherwise...

I have used the words "metaphor" and "facepunches" more than once in this thread, I'd like to clarify that I never said that anyone "doesn't belong here", just that there are lots of choices. Suggesting that there are other great sites with different perspectives is not the same as telling someone they don't belong here. Sheesh.


On a general note: Is there anyone who doesn't understand that the whole MMM persona is a hook, created by a guy named Pete, just to facilitate getting his points across? Pete is real, MMM is made up. Same with Facepunches. IMO, it's just a more attention-getting way of saying "Wake up!" In PF land it's all about distinguishing your voice from all the others. Pete's been very successful because he's found a unique voice with which to tell his story.

Heck, there are those who eschew the blog and forum because of the colorful language. Others look past the profanity and/or choose not to use it in their own posts. For example, ever notice how much arebelspy contributes here, yet he very seldom swears? If you don't like Facepunches, you don't have to use them. If you don't want them, don't seek them. 
There are financial blogs and forums galore, surely it's possible to find others that better suit your personal style.

Two blogs I love, that I've followed since long before Pete sprung MMM on the world, are The Non-Consumer Advocate and The Frugal Girl. Katy at NCA has a wicked sense of humor and Kristen at TFG models kindness in everything she does. Neither have forums, but both have very active comment sections and use other social media. The difference is that everyone understands that they are real people writing as themselves. I don't swear there, and I don't even hint at Facepunches. I enjoy their sites and this one in roughly equal measure. Now that JD's back at GRS, I'll add that pre-MMM site back into my reating list.

Interestingly, neither Katy or Kristen support themselves with their blog income, whereas Pete, as MMM, and JD at GRS seem to be doing quite well financially.

There are lots of great PF options out there, and plenty of paths to FIRE.


« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 09:10:07 AM by Dicey »

Kris

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #710 on: October 21, 2017, 08:16:47 AM »
What i dont like are agressively rude posters who hide behind the facepunch metaphor when they are just argumentative and critical people, in general, often with their own personal agenda or chip on their shoulder (especially with respect to wealth distribution).

A perfect example.  Person A says they dont like the use of a metaphor based on a violent act. Person B says, well someone who cant tell the difference between a true violent act and a metaphor doesnt belong here.
...You want a more analytical conversation...
Has anyone read Pizza Steve's current siggy line? It's clear that he's not actually seeking "conversation", analytical or otherwise...


Yeah, I noticed that, too. Which struck me as... odd, to put it mildly. I mean, if you arenít interested in communicating with other people, then, why communicate, KWIM?



SpreadsheetMan

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #711 on: October 21, 2017, 11:41:29 AM »
What i dont like are agressively rude posters who hide behind the facepunch metaphor when they are just argumentative and critical people, in general, often with their own personal agenda or chip on their shoulder (especially with respect to wealth distribution).

A perfect example.  Person A says they dont like the use of a metaphor based on a violent act. Person B says, well someone who cant tell the difference between a true violent act and a metaphor doesnt belong here.
I don't see how this is an example of the scenario you described at all. I think you were offended by Person B (who is obviously Kris) and are hiding behind an "example" to retaliate :)

But seriously, I'm pretty sure most of us agree on the point you're trying to make, the first post just didn't get that point across. You want a more analytical conversation as opposed to "I disagree with your use of funds→FACEPUNCH!!!!"

And I never saw any indication that SpreadsheetMan's comment was anything other than metaphorical (although maybe bit self righteous). Didn't read the thread so maybe I'm missing something?

No-one could see that I was smiling when I made the comment. MMMs facepunch trademark is a metaphorical wake up call rather than an actual thing.

Dabnasty

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #712 on: October 21, 2017, 12:54:35 PM »
What i dont like are agressively rude posters who hide behind the facepunch metaphor when they are just argumentative and critical people, in general, often with their own personal agenda or chip on their shoulder (especially with respect to wealth distribution).

A perfect example.  Person A says they dont like the use of a metaphor based on a violent act. Person B says, well someone who cant tell the difference between a true violent act and a metaphor doesnt belong here.
...You want a more analytical conversation...
Has anyone read Pizza Steve's current siggy line? It's clear that he's not actually seeking "conversation", analytical or otherwise...

On a general note: Is there anyone who doesn't understand that the whole MMM persona is a hook, created by a guy named Pete, just to facilitate getting his points across? Pete is real, MMM is made up. Same with Facepunches. IMO, it's just a more attention-getting way of saying "Wake up!" In PF land it's all about distinguishing your voice from all the others. Pete's been very successful because he's found a unique voice with which to tell his story.

Heck, there are those who eschew the blog and forum because of the colorful language. Others look past the profanity and/or choose not to use it in their own posts. For example, ever notice how much arebelspy contributes here, yet he very seldom swears? If you don't like Facepunches, you don't have to use them. If you don't want them, don't seek them. 
There are financial blogs and forums galore, surely it's possible to find others that better suit your personal style.

Two blogs I love, that I've followed since long before Pete sprung MMM on the world, are The Non-Consumer Advocate and The Frugal Girl. Katy at NCA has a wicked sense of humor and Kristen at TFG models kindness in everything she does. Neither have forums, but both have very active comment sections and use other social media. The difference is that everyone understands that they are real people writing as themselves. I don't swear there, and I don't even hint at Facepunches. I enjoy their sites and this one in roughly equal measure. Now that JD's back at GRS, I'll add that pre-MMM site back into my reating list.

Interestingly, neither Katy or Kristen support themselves with their blog income, whereas Pete, as MMM, and JD at GRS seem to be doing quite well financially.

There are lots of great PF options out there, and plenty of paths to FIRE.

Finally, DabnastyPizzaSteve, since I have used the words "metaphor" and "facepunches" more than once in this thread, I'd like to clarify that IKris never said that anyone "doesn't belong here", just that there are lots of choices. Suggesting that there are other great sites with different perspectives is not the same as telling someone they don't belong here. Sheesh.

This quoting business is getting real mixed up. I never suggested anyone said such a thing. PizzaSteve said that Person B said "doesn't belong here". In fact I would say Person B's (assuming that was Kris) wording was much less harsh to begin with
Quote
Look, I get it, but given that one of Pete/MMM's best-known catch phrases is giving someone who needs an attitude adjustment a "facepunch", then yeah, I'd say you're probably on the wrong forum if you don't like that phrase.

Regarding the siggy line, even if PizzaSteve is not looking to be involved in the conversations I would assume he still cares about the conversations being had. Why else would he read the forum or in this case interject?
« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 12:58:33 PM by Dabnasty »

Dabnasty

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #713 on: October 21, 2017, 01:05:06 PM »
What i dont like are agressively rude posters who hide behind the facepunch metaphor when they are just argumentative and critical people, in general, often with their own personal agenda or chip on their shoulder (especially with respect to wealth distribution).

A perfect example.  Person A says they dont like the use of a metaphor based on a violent act. Person B says, well someone who cant tell the difference between a true violent act and a metaphor doesnt belong here.
I don't see how this is an example of the scenario you described at all. I think you were offended by Person B (who is obviously Kris) and are hiding behind an "example" to retaliate :)

But seriously, I'm pretty sure most of us agree on the point you're trying to make, the first post just didn't get that point across. You want a more analytical conversation as opposed to "I disagree with your use of funds→FACEPUNCH!!!!"

And I never saw any indication that SpreadsheetMan's comment was anything other than metaphorical (although maybe bit self righteous). Didn't read the thread so maybe I'm missing something?

No-one could see that I was smiling when I made the comment. MMMs facepunch trademark is a metaphorical wake up call rather than an actual thing.
That's usually how these things get off track, hard to see intentions without body language and tone of voice. I think we tend to project our own feelings and mood onto others' comments.

nereo

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #714 on: October 22, 2017, 12:53:13 PM »
...
Quote
Two people who are frequently critical (and i suspect a male and female version of the same person) are on my ignore list and that has greatly improved my forum experience.

...there's an ignore list function?!

Dicey

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #715 on: October 22, 2017, 02:31:15 PM »
What i dont like are agressively rude posters who hide behind the facepunch metaphor when they are just argumentative and critical people, in general, often with their own personal agenda or chip on their shoulder (especially with respect to wealth distribution).

A perfect example.  Person A says they dont like the use of a metaphor based on a violent act. Person B says, well someone who cant tell the difference between a true violent act and a metaphor doesnt belong here.
...You want a more analytical conversation...
Has anyone read Pizza Steve's current siggy line? It's clear that he's not actually seeking "conversation", analytical or otherwise...

On a general note: Is there anyone who doesn't understand that the whole MMM persona is a hook, created by a guy named Pete, just to facilitate getting his points across? Pete is real, MMM is made up. Same with Facepunches. IMO, it's just a more attention-getting way of saying "Wake up!" In PF land it's all about distinguishing your voice from all the others. Pete's been very successful because he's found a unique voice with which to tell his story.

Heck, there are those who eschew the blog and forum because of the colorful language. Others look past the profanity and/or choose not to use it in their own posts. For example, ever notice how much arebelspy contributes here, yet he very seldom swears? If you don't like Facepunches, you don't have to use them. If you don't want them, don't seek them. 
There are financial blogs and forums galore, surely it's possible to find others that better suit your personal style.

Two blogs I love, that I've followed since long before Pete sprung MMM on the world, are The Non-Consumer Advocate and The Frugal Girl. Katy at NCA has a wicked sense of humor and Kristen at TFG models kindness in everything she does. Neither have forums, but both have very active comment sections and use other social media. The difference is that everyone understands that they are real people writing as themselves. I don't swear there, and I don't even hint at Facepunches. I enjoy their sites and this one in roughly equal measure. Now that JD's back at GRS, I'll add that pre-MMM site back into my reating list.

Interestingly, neither Katy or Kristen support themselves with their blog income, whereas Pete, as MMM, and JD at GRS seem to be doing quite well financially.

There are lots of great PF options out there, and plenty of paths to FIRE.

Finally, DabnastyPizzaSteve, since I have used the words "metaphor" and "facepunches" more than once in this thread, I'd like to clarify that IKris never said that anyone "doesn't belong here", just that there are lots of choices. Suggesting that there are other great sites with different perspectives is not the same as telling someone they don't belong here. Sheesh.

This quoting business is getting real mixed up. I never suggested anyone said such a thing. PizzaSteve said that Person B said "doesn't belong here". In fact I would say Person B's (assuming that was Kris) wording was much less harsh to begin with
Quote
Look, I get it, but given that one of Pete/MMM's best-known catch phrases is giving someone who needs an attitude adjustment a "facepunch", then yeah, I'd say you're probably on the wrong forum if you don't like that phrase.

Regarding the siggy line, even if PizzaSteve is not looking to be involved in the conversations I would assume he still cares about the conversations being had. Why else would he read the forum or in this case interject?
Dabnasty, You are correct. The first mistake is mine, all mine. I have corrected the comment. I do not understand the second change you made, as I was speaking about myself, not about someone else.

As to Pizza Steve,
1. He got mad when some people disagreed with him.
2. He "left" the forum.
3. He came back, with his new siggy line.
4. He is not interested in anyone's opinion but his own, which he repeats over and over, including in this very thread. Further citations can be provided, if necessary.
5. As to your final question, again the siggy line makes it clear that he is not here to help anyone and he doesn't want anyone's feedback. Seems he just wants others to know and understand what his opinion is. Which is fine, it's his decision to make.

Goldielocks

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #716 on: October 22, 2017, 07:45:14 PM »
...
Quote
Two people who are frequently critical (and i suspect a male and female version of the same person) are on my ignore list and that has greatly improved my forum experience.

...there's an ignore list function?!

It's a "ignore user" feature.  Works great when needed.  Blocks all the posts, (but you see that it is there) unless you click on the "view post" link.

Dicey

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #717 on: October 22, 2017, 07:54:12 PM »
...
Quote
Two people who are frequently critical (and i suspect a male and female version of the same person) are on my ignore list and that has greatly improved my forum experience.

...there's an ignore list function?!

It's a "ignore user" feature.  Works great when needed.  Blocks all the posts, (but you see that it is there) unless you click on the "view post" link.
Yes, it works until the blocked person is quoted by someone else who isn't blocked. Rather than block everyone, I'd rather just try to tune out the scratchy voice. Funny though, years ago, there was someone whose posts drove me crazy, primarily because they were so poorly written. Eventually, I just got used to his writing style and now he's absolutely one of my favorites. Go figure.

dragoncar

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #718 on: October 22, 2017, 10:59:21 PM »
Hey PizzaSteve and GuitarStv... are you guys related?

Also, when am I gonna taste yer pizza? 

calimom

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #719 on: October 22, 2017, 11:26:57 PM »
Hey PizzaSteve and GuitarStv... are you guys related?

Also, when am I gonna taste yer pizza?

And hear your gee-tar?

dragoncar

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #720 on: October 22, 2017, 11:46:05 PM »
Hey PizzaSteve and GuitarStv... are you guys related?

Also, when am I gonna taste yer pizza?

And hear your gee-tar?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgVJC9eNb-g

watching this again, I realize there is a pizza steve trophy conspiracy
« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 11:49:23 PM by dragoncar »

boarder42

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #721 on: October 23, 2017, 05:50:27 AM »
...
Quote
Two people who are frequently critical (and i suspect a male and female version of the same person) are on my ignore list and that has greatly improved my forum experience.

...there's an ignore list function?!

It's a "ignore user" feature.  Works great when needed.  Blocks all the posts, (but you see that it is there) unless you click on the "view post" link.
Yes, it works until the blocked person is quoted by someone else who isn't blocked. Rather than block everyone, I'd rather just try to tune out the scratchy voice. Funny though, years ago, there was someone whose posts drove me crazy, primarily because they were so poorly written. Eventually, I just got used to his writing style and now he's absolutely one of my favorites. Go figure.

you realize he is saying you and i are the same person in this statement.

Dicey

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #722 on: October 23, 2017, 07:18:10 AM »
...
Quote
Two people who are frequently critical (and i suspect a male and female version of the same person) are on my ignore list and that has greatly improved my forum experience.

...there's an ignore list function?!

It's a "ignore user" feature.  Works great when needed.  Blocks all the posts, (but you see that it is there) unless you click on the "view post" link.
Yes, it works until the blocked person is quoted by someone else who isn't blocked. Rather than block everyone, I'd rather just try to tune out the scratchy voice. Funny though, years ago, there was someone whose posts drove me crazy, primarily because they were so poorly written. Eventually, I just got used to his writing style and now he's absolutely one of my favorites. Go figure.

you realize he is saying you and i are the same person in this statement.
Hmmm, what are the odds that I could I be talking about you in mine? ;-)

God, I'd love to be that clever! No such luck, I'm afraid.

CanuckExpat

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #723 on: October 25, 2017, 08:07:53 PM »
If if you think any of the discussions here are soft, you should peek around at the discussions in Mustachian Facebook groups (or whatever they are called)
You will be wanting to face punch your screen
And you get the joy of using FB as a platform 

elaine amj

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #724 on: October 26, 2017, 08:37:22 AM »
If if you think any of the discussions here are soft, you should peek around at the discussions in Mustachian Facebook groups (or whatever they are called)
You will be wanting to face punch your screen
And you get the joy of using FB as a platform

Ack! I haven't ventured in those yet. Sounds like that might be a good thing.

Zikoris

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #725 on: October 26, 2017, 09:44:26 AM »
If if you think any of the discussions here are soft, you should peek around at the discussions in Mustachian Facebook groups (or whatever they are called)
You will be wanting to face punch your screen
And you get the joy of using FB as a platform

Ack! I haven't ventured in those yet. Sounds like that might be a good thing.

The Facebook groups have totally turned into a shitshow. I honestly don't know what the point of them is anymore. I'm subscribed to like six of them. I should probably cut that down to just Canadian Mustachians and our local group.

CanuckExpat

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #726 on: October 26, 2017, 10:13:51 AM »
The Facebook groups have totally turned into a shitshow. I honestly don't know what the point of them is anymore. I'm subscribed to like six of them. I should probably cut that down to just Canadian Mustachians and our local group.

The only point may be to keep the real train wrecks off the forum, or contained on FB?


I try not to go in too much, but off the top of my head I think I saw posts asking for help with picking a clown car SUV, and justifying a 90 mile commute or something

Zikoris

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #727 on: October 26, 2017, 10:28:25 AM »
Okay, I axed them all except the lower incomes one and the local Vancouver one. Much better!

boarder42

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #728 on: October 26, 2017, 11:09:35 AM »
Okay, I axed them all except the lower incomes one and the local Vancouver one. Much better!

most things on facebook are train wrecks.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #729 on: October 26, 2017, 10:27:33 PM »
Examples of facebook group shitshows, please.

Zikoris

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #730 on: October 26, 2017, 10:35:09 PM »
Okay, I axed them all except the lower incomes one and the local Vancouver one. Much better!

most things on facebook are train wrecks.

Hah! I actually quite like the local Vancouver Mustachian group. It's small enough that I personally know just about everyone, at least in passing, and nobody posts stupid shit. We also have pretty regular meetups, which probably keeps people more civil than more anonymous groups.

DarkandStormy

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #731 on: October 27, 2017, 06:48:10 AM »
If if you think any of the discussions here are soft, you should peek around at the discussions in Mustachian Facebook groups (or whatever they are called)
You will be wanting to face punch your screen
And you get the joy of using FB as a platform

Ack! I haven't ventured in those yet. Sounds like that might be a good thing.

The Facebook groups have totally turned into a shitshow. I honestly don't know what the point of them is anymore. I'm subscribed to like six of them. I should probably cut that down to just Canadian Mustachians and our local group.

I'm subscribed to a couple - on one (not a Mustachian group, but FI minded) a lady was bragging about her 102% savings rate this month (102% of take home pay).  When asked how she could save more than she took home, she said something like "budgeting and I had overflow in my checking account that I didn't want to sit at 0% so I invested it - it helps that I prepay expenses 1-2 months in advance."  Uhhh that's not a 102% savings rate, that's an Asset Allocation reset because you decided to move a bulk of your cash into investments.  You didn't "save" any extra you just decided to move cash into the market.

Plus, it's not like people who front load their 401ks and Roth IRAs in January & February go around bragging about a 150% savings rate for that month...it'll even out later in the year most likely.

boarder42

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #732 on: October 27, 2017, 09:15:04 AM »
If if you think any of the discussions here are soft, you should peek around at the discussions in Mustachian Facebook groups (or whatever they are called)
You will be wanting to face punch your screen
And you get the joy of using FB as a platform

Ack! I haven't ventured in those yet. Sounds like that might be a good thing.

The Facebook groups have totally turned into a shitshow. I honestly don't know what the point of them is anymore. I'm subscribed to like six of them. I should probably cut that down to just Canadian Mustachians and our local group.

I'm subscribed to a couple - on one (not a Mustachian group, but FI minded) a lady was bragging about her 102% savings rate this month (102% of take home pay).  When asked how she could save more than she took home, she said something like "budgeting and I had overflow in my checking account that I didn't want to sit at 0% so I invested it - it helps that I prepay expenses 1-2 months in advance."  Uhhh that's not a 102% savings rate, that's an Asset Allocation reset because you decided to move a bulk of your cash into investments.  You didn't "save" any extra you just decided to move cash into the market.

Plus, it's not like people who front load their 401ks and Roth IRAs in January & February go around bragging about a 150% savings rate for that month...it'll even out later in the year most likely.

even worse she's pre payiing expenses 1-2 months in andvance.  how is that for making your money work for other people.

nereo

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #733 on: October 27, 2017, 09:23:13 AM »
If if you think any of the discussions here are soft, you should peek around at the discussions in Mustachian Facebook groups (or whatever they are called)
You will be wanting to face punch your screen
And you get the joy of using FB as a platform

Ack! I haven't ventured in those yet. Sounds like that might be a good thing.

The Facebook groups have totally turned into a shitshow. I honestly don't know what the point of them is anymore. I'm subscribed to like six of them. I should probably cut that down to just Canadian Mustachians and our local group.

I'm subscribed to a couple - on one (not a Mustachian group, but FI minded) a lady was bragging about her 102% savings rate this month (102% of take home pay).  When asked how she could save more than she took home, she said something like "budgeting and I had overflow in my checking account that I didn't want to sit at 0% so I invested it - it helps that I prepay expenses 1-2 months in advance."  Uhhh that's not a 102% savings rate, that's an Asset Allocation reset because you decided to move a bulk of your cash into investments.  You didn't "save" any extra you just decided to move cash into the market.

Plus, it's not like people who front load their 401ks and Roth IRAs in January & February go around bragging about a 150% savings rate for that month...it'll even out later in the year most likely.
...wait, what does the "shockingly simple math" say about a 102% savings rate?
:-)

DarkandStormy

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #734 on: October 27, 2017, 09:31:33 AM »
If if you think any of the discussions here are soft, you should peek around at the discussions in Mustachian Facebook groups (or whatever they are called)
You will be wanting to face punch your screen
And you get the joy of using FB as a platform

Ack! I haven't ventured in those yet. Sounds like that might be a good thing.

The Facebook groups have totally turned into a shitshow. I honestly don't know what the point of them is anymore. I'm subscribed to like six of them. I should probably cut that down to just Canadian Mustachians and our local group.

I'm subscribed to a couple - on one (not a Mustachian group, but FI minded) a lady was bragging about her 102% savings rate this month (102% of take home pay).  When asked how she could save more than she took home, she said something like "budgeting and I had overflow in my checking account that I didn't want to sit at 0% so I invested it - it helps that I prepay expenses 1-2 months in advance."  Uhhh that's not a 102% savings rate, that's an Asset Allocation reset because you decided to move a bulk of your cash into investments.  You didn't "save" any extra you just decided to move cash into the market.

Plus, it's not like people who front load their 401ks and Roth IRAs in January & February go around bragging about a 150% savings rate for that month...it'll even out later in the year most likely.

even worse she's pre payiing expenses 1-2 months in andvance.  how is that for making your money work for other people.

Haha, right?  If you're calculating savings rate based on investments, that's fine...but you obviously sat on a pile of cash for a couple months so your savings rate in the prior months must have been pretty poor.  It'll even itself out over 12 months.

If you're calculating based on take home pay, in theory you could reach 100%...your employer 401k match + HSA contribution could equal your expenses.  Say they contribute $35k to your 401k (unlikely) and $3k to your HSA - that's $38k of savings right there.  It's possible I guess, but I highly doubt there's anyone out there in that situation.

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #735 on: October 27, 2017, 10:14:45 AM »
If you're calculating based on take home pay, in theory you could reach 100%...your employer 401k match + HSA contribution could equal your expenses.  Say they contribute $35k to your 401k (unlikely) and $3k to your HSA - that's $38k of savings right there.  It's possible I guess, but I highly doubt there's anyone out there in that situation.

My goal for this year is to save 100% of my post tax salary for my main job. I'm calling it a 100*% savings rate where the "*" stands for clearly cheating. I hope I won't be considered soft or clueless. Also, I'm cheating by using a different tax system to you!

Edited to clarify: I'm not counting gains or dividends from investments, only new money saved.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2017, 11:52:39 PM by Playing with Fire UK »

DarkandStormy

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #736 on: October 27, 2017, 11:31:43 AM »
^No not at all.  As long as you don't count moving cash to investments as "savings." LOL.

Jealous of your 100% plan!

Dabnasty

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #737 on: October 27, 2017, 11:56:45 AM »
I've always assumed 401k match is counted as income and I want to know what % of my income I save vs. spend. Those two numbers should add up to 100% I guess if you really want to know what % of your on paper salary is going into your savings accounts you wouldn't count match but I don't see much use for that number.

Unless you just like playing with maths in which case, carry on.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #738 on: October 27, 2017, 08:50:31 PM »
If you're calculating based on take home pay, in theory you could reach 100%...your employer 401k match + HSA contribution could equal your expenses.  Say they contribute $35k to your 401k (unlikely) and $3k to your HSA - that's $38k of savings right there.  It's possible I guess, but I highly doubt there's anyone out there in that situation.

My goal for this year is to save 100% of my post tax salary for my main job. I'm calling it a 100*% savings rate where the "*" stands for clearly cheating. I hope I won't be considered soft or clueless. Also, I'm cheating by using a different tax system to you!

It's probably me being soft (or lazy) but I don't claim a 100% saving rate although my passive income (dividends, interest) is higher than my annual spending.  In a sense, I could withdraw those funds and shove all of my after-tax pay back in to investments, but that would just be silly.

For example, if I bring home 100k and spend 60k, I have a 40% saving rate.  I may have a 5MM portfolio that yields 2%, so 100k passive income, but that seems too much like cheating.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2017, 09:14:55 PM by EscapeVelocity2020 »

Lews Therin

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #739 on: October 27, 2017, 08:52:45 PM »
But that income does count when you are looking at SR to FIRE, the income from your passive investments will cut down your time, so counting it as income is not incorrect.

the 80% savings rate for 5.5 years is valid if the person saves 70% of their income, and gets another 10% extra from investments, bringing them up to a 80% SR.

boarder42

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #740 on: October 28, 2017, 05:07:45 AM »
Savings rates are a hook from the shockingly simple math. Manipulate them anyway you will but they aren't too relevant once you understand everything else about FIRE

human

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #741 on: October 28, 2017, 05:36:48 AM »
I'm chiming in to say yes it has gone soft. Someone cries about needing a bigger hous and everyone pets them and encourages them to follow their heart. Check out the comparison is the thief of joy thread. Instead of telling op to make do and get real help for her problems everyone just enables her. Maybe I went a little far and I did get modded. Facepunching is a little hard if you have to be all polite about it

3 warnings so far, not sure if I'm really cut out for facepunching. People juat want to be told what they want to hear.

Laura33

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #742 on: October 28, 2017, 07:30:47 AM »
I'm chiming in to say yes it has gone soft. Someone cries about needing a bigger hous and everyone pets them and encourages them to follow their heart. Check out the comparison is the thief of joy thread. Instead of telling op to make do and get real help for her problems everyone just enables her. Maybe I went a little far and I did get modded. Facepunching is a little hard if you have to be all polite about it

3 warnings so far, not sure if I'm really cut out for facepunching. People juat want to be told what they want to hear.

Dude, she was living in a basement.  With cockroaches.  For nine years.  To save up for a $180k house.  And she was tired of it, but not willing to increase her budget because it would impact her savings.  If that is soft, MMM himself is soft.

And there's a difference between facepunching and being an asshole.

human

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #743 on: October 28, 2017, 07:45:03 AM »
That's the biggest problem with this forum. Millions and millions of your fellow americans making below the median salary for the country live like this. I lived like this when I made no money. Don't put all your hopes in ahouse!!

Their income is not going to increase any time soon they are better offinvesting then saving forever to buy a house. You're not doing her any favours.

Tass

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #744 on: October 28, 2017, 09:07:06 AM »
Their income is not going to increase any time soon they are better offinvesting then saving forever to buy a house.

Maybe to maximize your net worth. But the point of MMM isn't to maximize your net worth, otherwise no one would FIRE.

Edit: I think that's the problem we're running into, actually. The point is to maximize your happiness, but that includes being realistic about what makes you happy, which does not mean indulging every want. It means being serious about evaluating what will genuinely improve your life and keeping sight of the psychology of happiness through the haze of consumerist stuff.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2017, 09:14:06 AM by Tass »

human

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #745 on: October 28, 2017, 09:14:41 AM »
Not sure I get your point, you can't FIRE when you are house poor which is where these people are headed. A house is not an asset that can easily be converted into cash to pay for living expenses while investments are.

Tass

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #746 on: October 28, 2017, 03:34:56 PM »
I don't know what specific thread you're referring to, I'm just commenting on general principles.

human

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #747 on: October 28, 2017, 03:58:56 PM »
Still not sure what principles you are referring to, you need something to draw from when you aren't working or are you going to reverse mortgage your house?

marty998

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #748 on: October 28, 2017, 04:25:17 PM »
Still not sure what principles you are referring to, you need something to draw from when you aren't working or are you going to reverse mortgage your house?

Mate, MMM is not about living in a roach infested basement. A $180k house is not the end of the world in terms of FIRE, and I'll bet a significant chunk of the forum lives in residences worth significant multiples of that.

Having a high value house (in markets that appreciate in value) does not make you house poor. I personally view it view it as an investment that one day you can use to downsize.

Ask any homeowner in Sydney, London, Vancouver, SF Bay, New York etc etc and you'll get a very different perspective to your own.

Open your mind.

Laura33

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #749 on: October 28, 2017, 04:39:33 PM »
You're not doing her any favours.

Neither are you.  Someone says "I've been saving and sacrificing for X for nine years, and now I find it's still not enough, and I'm upset, so how can I get over being upset?" 

Option 1:  "You're stupid for wanting X, so stop whining."

Option 2:  "That's hard [a/k/a empathy].  You are doing the right thing not increasing your budget.  Why do you want X?  Maybe you don't actually need X to give you that.  So think about how you can achieve the most important things that X would give you in some other way that will cost less."

Which do you think most human beings will be more likely to listen to?
 
If you're here to make yourself feel superior by bashing people who live in a worse situation than you, feel free to continue to follow option 1.  But if you are in fact trying to help, you might want to start by not repeatedly calling someone an idiot for wanting to live somewhere that is above-ground and doesn't have cockroaches.*  Really, that's a pretty low bar.

Tl;dr:  if "wanting something better than a cockroach-infested basement apartment" and "wanting to own a $150k home" is the standard for "soft," then the vast majority of people on this board don't belong.  And if people responding with "good job sticking to your budget, maybe you get a slightly nicer apartment that still costs less than a house while you keep saving and looking" is the best example of the community going soft that you can think of, well, you might just have proved the opposite.

*This is especially true when you personally have chosen to get out of those very circumstances, and there is not one whit of evidence that the OP can't afford to make the same choice.  You said yourself you used to live in that kind of place.  But you don't any more -- once you could afford better, you apparently got the hell out of Dodge.  If roach-infested basements are so awesome, why aren't you still living in one?