Author Topic: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?  (Read 59842 times)

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #700 on: October 15, 2017, 07:52:23 PM »
Well, when I started reading the blog and participating in the forum, the US seemed a lot less volatile and a 'facepunch' was a silly hyperbole.  Nowadays 'facepunching' (and violence in general) literally happens at 'peaceful' protests, on college campuses, and even at professional sports.  Maybe I've become sensitized, but I've had enough with that part of the community and don't want to see it make a comeback.
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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #701 on: October 16, 2017, 04:34:25 AM »
Well, when I started reading the blog and participating in the forum, the US seemed a lot less volatile and a 'facepunch' was a silly hyperbole.  Nowadays 'facepunching' (and violence in general) literally happens at 'peaceful' protests, on college campuses, and even at professional sports.  Maybe I've become sensitized, but I've had enough with that part of the community and don't want to see it make a comeback.

Interesting point.  I think the underlying intention behind the "face punch" are still the same - giving someone an acute dose of fiscal reality when their actions are needlessly wasteful - but sadly I'd have to agree that the enviornment has changed so that the word itself carries a much darker tone. After all, in practice isn't a "facepunch" here the same as "tough love" or "the brutal truth" or a "bucket of ice-cold reality"?  Yet when we talk about facepunching now i can't help but relate it to our political enviornment where the exact opposite is happening; people are literally getting punched in the face for telling people what they honestly believe.
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EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #702 on: October 16, 2017, 07:45:47 AM »
Well, when I started reading the blog and participating in the forum, the US seemed a lot less volatile and a 'facepunch' was a silly hyperbole.  Nowadays 'facepunching' (and violence in general) literally happens at 'peaceful' protests, on college campuses, and even at professional sports.  Maybe I've become sensitized, but I've had enough with that part of the community and don't want to see it make a comeback.

Interesting point.  I think the underlying intention behind the "face punch" are still the same - giving someone an acute dose of fiscal reality when their actions are needlessly wasteful - but sadly I'd have to agree that the enviornment has changed so that the word itself carries a much darker tone. After all, in practice isn't a "facepunch" here the same as "tough love" or "the brutal truth" or a "bucket of ice-cold reality"?  Yet when we talk about facepunching now i can't help but relate it to our political enviornment where the exact opposite is happening; people are literally getting punched in the face for telling people what they honestly believe.

Thanks for your thoughts on it.  When I started, people gave me a few facepunches (and called me complainypants) and I took it all in stride since I was pretty close to FI anyway and could handle a little criticism, although the delivery felt a little childish.  Just like in real life, sometimes I agreed that my decisions were not optimal or efficient, but calling out violence and names in the middle of a discussion usually distracted me from the message.  I think for a newer member or someone getting started on FI, there is a more effective   delivery of "wake up and figure out if you want FIRE or consumer slavery".  Maybe the community has 'softened' but to me that's a sign of maturity.
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elaine amj

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #703 on: October 16, 2017, 08:16:31 AM »
A lot of it was originally based on MMM's blogs and the terminology he chose to highlight his points. Perhaps the currently politically sensitive environment is time to change up our community's "traditions" and use words like "tough love" instead?

For me, Pete's concept of complainypants really resonated with me. For most of us, the gut reaction to suggestions is to come up with a litany of excuses as to why it can't work that way for me. Just read the comments from the general population about any FIRE-ee (like MMM) and you'll see a whole bunch of
- "it can't work because.."
- "well, he's different because..."
- "he's an arrogant whatever showing off his specialness..."
- "his numbers are wrong because he categorized XX incorrectly.."
- "average Joe cannot FIRE because he's laden with student debt, has a house, kids, and God forbid those kids don't get to play travel hockey!"
It's like everyone has to drag everybody else to the lowest common denominator to prove that obviously such specialness is not achievable by the regular human. His posts on this syndrome finally opened my eyes to my own inclinations to do the exact same thing.

Many many times, we need to quit trying to figure out why something can't work and focus on getting creative to make something work. Which is what I love about the community here. So many incredibly smart people coming up with creative solutions to achieve a goal.
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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #704 on: October 16, 2017, 11:56:35 AM »
[quote author=elaine amj .

Many many times, we need to quit trying to figure out why something can't work and focus on getting creative to make something work. Which is what I love about the community here. So many incredibly smart people coming up with creative solutions to achieve a goal.
[/quote]

What most of us get out of a site like this is solution based thinking. Agree 100% about finding creative ways to make something happen as opposed to whining about how the deck is stacked against you. It can be a head scratcher when people who've been here for awhile present some financial/work/home/spending issue, receive lots of feedback, and then do nothing much about it. Their zoo, their monkeys of course, but they seem to be missing some crucial point.

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #705 on: October 17, 2017, 09:23:09 PM »
I don't think this forum has gone soft, I think it has gone more mainstream.  My perspective it the major first world countries.  I don't think many folks from Zimbabwe or Afghanistan frequent this site.

The vast majority of us, going down to lower middle and upper poor class, get in our reliable cars and drive paved roads to a stable job.  We work in safe environments, and if they are not safe, it can be resolved with a phone call or two.  We work our shift and drive our reliable car on paved roads back to our weather tight home.  We might stop by a well stocked grocery store to pick up some affordable food.  We walk into those weather tight homes, turn on the tv, take a leak and flush the toilet with running water, and have a nice dinner.  Over dinner we discuss how bad our lives are and we need to improve them.  We decide to finance our way out of this hard life.  We open monthly subscriptions to various services, we finance a nicer reliable car, and upgrade to a bigger weather tight house, we pay someone to mow the nice lawn.  We eat out because our jobs are too stressful to worry about cooking, we watch tv instead of interacting with our neighbors, we build 6' wooden fences to keep people out instead of getting to know who lives next door, then we drink or other such indulgences because we are fighting loneliness and stress from jobs and stress.   

I think Pete's original message is for us to take a step back and analyze our situation.  We are social beings.  Why are we actively configuring our lives to remove the social aspect?  Why are we trying to outdo our neighbors instead of getting to know them?  We are also physical beings.  Why are we sitting in an office chair in order to make more money to pay someone to do our physical things that we are perfectly capable of?  Why drive a 2 ton vehicle 1.5 mile to the store when we can walk it in half an hour or cycle it in 4 minutes?  What will your kids have better memories of, the well made movies 3 times a week, or the same hours of your poorly played ukulele and singing?

We all know the guy who works 60+ hours a week to afford the $50k truck that pulls the $40k boat to the lake on the weekend, and always seems stressed out.  We also know the guy who drive a reasonable used car, no boat, but has a good relationship with his friends and neighbors.  Who do you want to be, and who do you want to spend your time with?   
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nereo

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #706 on: October 18, 2017, 03:20:06 AM »
... well then there's this.  A poster literally asked to be facepunched ofr considering a $3500 stereo system while he is still accumulating wealth and has young kinds.  The very first response said "sure, you cna't deny yourself all luxuries!"
thankfully a nice platoon of other posters came in to give the required facepunches, with some good advice to boot.
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slappy

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #707 on: October 18, 2017, 05:50:28 AM »
... well then there's this.  A poster literally asked to be facepunched ofr considering a $3500 stereo system while he is still accumulating wealth and has young kinds.  The very first response said "sure, you cna't deny yourself all luxuries!"
thankfully a nice platoon of other posters came in to give the required facepunches, with some good advice to boot.

I saw that post and considered linking this post. Lol

boarder42

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #708 on: October 18, 2017, 10:51:15 AM »
... well then there's this.  A poster literally asked to be facepunched ofr considering a $3500 stereo system while he is still accumulating wealth and has young kinds.  The very first response said "sure, you cna't deny yourself all luxuries!"
thankfully a nice platoon of other posters came in to give the required facepunches, with some good advice to boot.

I saw that post and considered linking this post. Lol

same i couldnt help but laugh... mustachianism is about balance.  no not when it comes to 3500 dollar stereos
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solon

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #709 on: October 18, 2017, 10:53:20 AM »
... well then there's this.  A poster literally asked to be facepunched ofr considering a $3500 stereo system while he is still accumulating wealth and has young kinds.  The very first response said "sure, you cna't deny yourself all luxuries!"
thankfully a nice platoon of other posters came in to give the required facepunches, with some good advice to boot.

I saw that post and considered linking this post. Lol

same i couldnt help but laugh... mustachianism is about balance.  no not when it comes to 3500 dollar stereos

Somebody should reply to that poster - with a facepunch.

nereo

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #710 on: October 18, 2017, 12:02:14 PM »
... well then there's this.  A poster literally asked to be facepunched ofr considering a $3500 stereo system while he is still accumulating wealth and has young kinds.  The very first response said "sure, you cna't deny yourself all luxuries!"
thankfully a nice platoon of other posters came in to give the required facepunches, with some good advice to boot.

I saw that post and considered linking this post. Lol

same i couldnt help but laugh... mustachianism is about balance.  no not when it comes to 3500 dollar stereos

Somebody should reply to that poster - with a facepunch.
see above - several people already have, plus some useful advice given.
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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #711 on: October 18, 2017, 12:33:34 PM »
I don't think this forum has gone soft, I think it has gone more mainstream.  My perspective it the major first world countries.  I don't think many folks from Zimbabwe or Afghanistan frequent this site.

The vast majority of us, going down to lower middle and upper poor class, get in our reliable cars and drive paved roads to a stable job.  We work in safe environments, and if they are not safe, it can be resolved with a phone call or two.  We work our shift and drive our reliable car on paved roads back to our weather tight home.  We might stop by a well stocked grocery store to pick up some affordable food.  We walk into those weather tight homes, turn on the tv, take a leak and flush the toilet with running water, and have a nice dinner.  Over dinner we discuss how bad our lives are and we need to improve them.  We decide to finance our way out of this hard life.  We open monthly subscriptions to various services, we finance a nicer reliable car, and upgrade to a bigger weather tight house, we pay someone to mow the nice lawn.  We eat out because our jobs are too stressful to worry about cooking, we watch tv instead of interacting with our neighbors, we build 6' wooden fences to keep people out instead of getting to know who lives next door, then we drink or other such indulgences because we are fighting loneliness and stress from jobs and stress.   

I think Pete's original message is for us to take a step back and analyze our situation.  We are social beings.  Why are we actively configuring our lives to remove the social aspect?  Why are we trying to outdo our neighbors instead of getting to know them?  We are also physical beings.  Why are we sitting in an office chair in order to make more money to pay someone to do our physical things that we are perfectly capable of?  Why drive a 2 ton vehicle 1.5 mile to the store when we can walk it in half an hour or cycle it in 4 minutes?  What will your kids have better memories of, the well made movies 3 times a week, or the same hours of your poorly played ukulele and singing?

We all know the guy who works 60+ hours a week to afford the $50k truck that pulls the $40k boat to the lake on the weekend, and always seems stressed out.  We also know the guy who drive a reasonable used car, no boat, but has a good relationship with his friends and neighbors.  Who do you want to be, and who do you want to spend your time with?
Thanks for posting this. I think this is a concept most of us understand by now (at least in this particular thread) but it's worth repeating often; for those who haven't thought about it and as a reminder for those who have. Sometimes people say his advice is for high earners but I think it applies to just about every person living in a developed country regardless of whether you want to be retired or not.

And I like that first paragraph. As a society we've come to believe that only being able to afford the necessities qualifies as being poor. Our discontent is no longer a matter of having the necessities but of being bored with them.

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #712 on: October 19, 2017, 09:56:43 AM »
This thread has been popping into my head a lot over the last few weeks. While I tend to fall more in the category of "it's only money" and "you only live once" (though I'm no spendthrift by any means), my family has been cleaning out my FIL's house in preparation for moving in with him next year.

He has lived in the same 5 bedroom house for the last 40 years. He didn't own a pickup truck most of his adult life and had a large dose of cheapness so he wasn't one to want to pay to take things to the landfill. Throw in some Depression era hoarding tendencies, an unwillingness to deal with his own parents' stuff when they died and a large house with a lot of places you can store things and you end up where we are now. My husband and our employee worked for several days building a trash pile, taking two full truckloads to the landfill in the meantime. Then I helped my FIL find someone to haul off the '33 Buick that he'd purchased in '61 to work on as a hobby. Then we had a 21 yard rolloff delivered. Between DH, employee, me and our 3 daughters, we had the rolloff filled in 5ish hours. We estimate there is at least another 1-2 dumpsters worth of stuff left to be tossed. And this is stuff that couldn't be given to Goodwill. We've delivered truckloads of stuff there, including so many glassware sets, plated silver items and furniture. Not to mention another carload of stuff that I delivered to my brother, a drama teacher, for use in plays.

It was sobering, to say the least.

The experience has shifted my thinking to "if I buy this now, will it end up in the landfill?" "Can I use it all up?" "Do I need more stuff?" "Can I give this away to someone else while it still has useful life?" There were so many things that went into the aforementioned dumpster that might have been useful to someone had they only been given away sooner rather than stuffed in a crawlspace to mildew and rot. And this all came from the house of a pretty frugal man. I can't imagine what the average American home of the same size wastes over the same time period ...

SpreadsheetMan

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #713 on: October 19, 2017, 01:29:06 PM »
There's a thread running currently that illustrates the free pass for gratuitous travel that people get here - the "shall I go to Vietnam/Cambodia or Bali on holiday?" one.

Everyone is congratulating the OP instead of delivering a giant facepunch for wasting money whilst screwing the environment.


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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #714 on: October 19, 2017, 02:11:24 PM »
I think Pete's original message is for us to take a step back and analyze our situation.  We are social beings.  Why are we actively configuring our lives to remove the social aspect?  Why are we trying to outdo our neighbors instead of getting to know them?  We are also physical beings.  Why are we sitting in an office chair in order to make more money to pay someone to do our physical things that we are perfectly capable of?  Why drive a 2 ton vehicle 1.5 mile to the store when we can walk it in half an hour or cycle it in 4 minutes?  What will your kids have better memories of, the well made movies 3 times a week, or the same hours of your poorly played ukulele and singing?

+1. For me it's been largely about seriously examining what genuinely contributes to my happiness. It's about not considering anything that requires effort a chore - enjoying things for the work I put into them rather than despite it. About recognizing the huge luxuries that already exist all around me. And about analyzing whether there's good reason to continue doing things the way they've always been done.

Kris

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #715 on: October 20, 2017, 08:08:45 AM »
There's a thread running currently that illustrates the free pass for gratuitous travel that people get here - the "shall I go to Vietnam/Cambodia or Bali on holiday?" one.

Everyone is congratulating the OP instead of delivering a giant facepunch for wasting money whilst screwing the environment.
Explain again why someone pursuing their dream of travel after saving for retirement needs " a giant face punch "? 

Per the above post about wanting to exist in a society with thoughtful people who support each other rather than waste, I abhore the embracing of violent metaphors for something obviously not destructive or wrong.  Perhaps I dont belong.   If this is a forum becomes a site for militant anti consumption using violence as an acceptable mechanism or even metaphoric violence, rather than thoughful self-determination, I will withdraw from many threads.

Note that the next step after violent speech is violent action.   I live in a community where folks claiming to be fighting for affordable housing have escalated from squating in tents in public spaces (occupy), which by the way they systematically trash, to setting fires in new developments they deem buildings for the rich, destroying whole city blocks.  I have seen a lot of aggressive posts that worry me, though we have excellemt moderators keeping it within reason.  Thanks for their hard work.

Look, I get it, but given that one of Pete/MMM's best-known catch phrases is giving someone who needs an attitude adjustment a "facepunch", then yeah, I'd say you're probably on the wrong forum if you don't like that phrase.
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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #716 on: October 20, 2017, 10:31:44 AM »
There's a thread running currently that illustrates the free pass for gratuitous travel that people get here - the "shall I go to Vietnam/Cambodia or Bali on holiday?" one.

Everyone is congratulating the OP instead of delivering a giant facepunch for wasting money whilst screwing the environment.

In that person's sort-of defense, full disclosure of "Un-Mustachian" is in the title. 

Dicey

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #717 on: October 20, 2017, 11:12:08 AM »
Do that many people not understand the difference between a metaphorical facepunch and actual violence?

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #718 on: October 20, 2017, 11:27:49 AM »
Do that many people not understand the difference between a metaphorical facepunch and actual violence?

It really seems that way.  You should have to answer a test made up of questions from the first couple years of MMM's blog posts to join this forum . . . I think we could solve most of the problems outlined in this thread that way.

Optimiser

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #719 on: October 20, 2017, 12:05:57 PM »
Do that many people not understand the difference between a metaphorical facepunch and actual violence?

It really seems that way.  You should have to answer a test made up of questions from the first couple years of MMM's blog posts to join this forum . . . I think we could solve most of the problems outlined in this thread that way.

I like this idea

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #720 on: October 20, 2017, 12:37:37 PM »
Do that many people not understand the difference between a metaphorical facepunch and actual violence?

It really seems that way.  You should have to answer a test made up of questions from the first couple years of MMM's blog posts to join this forum . . . I think we could solve most of the problems outlined in this thread that way.

Haha -- I started a post a couple of days ago saying this exact same thing.
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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #721 on: October 20, 2017, 07:55:05 PM »
well said PizzaSteve.
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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #722 on: October 20, 2017, 09:04:37 PM »
In line with PSteve's comment, it is very much like this commentary on why PewDiePie's Fiverr joke failed (the one where he paid people in a 3rd world country to dance around with a sign 'Death to All Jews').  Basically, Pete / MMM sets up his 'facepunch' with a thought out criticism on a 'mainstream' accepted lifestyle choice.  The fact that it ends with a 'facepunch' exclamation does not then feel threatening, more like a wake-up call, although the argument and ultimate facepunch might otherwise seem 'extreme' and uncomfortable for some.  Contrast that to someone that jumps straight in to ridiculing and facepunching someone and you see why that is not advancing the 'cause' and could make others 'not in on the joke' (and even those that get it) somewhat uncomfortable.   

Easiest thing is to move on entirely from the facepunching and name-calling now that there is a critical mass, which mostly seems to be the case for the blog and what few parts of the forum that I have seen lately.  Otherwise you risk the Fiverr scenario, even from MMM-himself, which just sucks for everyone.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 09:41:48 PM by EscapeVelocity2020 »
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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #723 on: October 20, 2017, 09:39:03 PM »
What i dont like are agressively rude posters who hide behind the facepunch metaphor when they are just argumentative and critical people, in general, often with their own personal agenda or chip on their shoulder (especially with respect to wealth distribution).

A perfect example.  Person A says they dont like the use of a metaphor based on a violent act. Person B says, well someone who cant tell the difference between a true violent act and a metaphor doesnt belong here.
I don't see how this is an example of the scenario you described at all. I think you were offended by Person B (who is obviously Kris) and are hiding behind an "example" to retaliate :)

But seriously, I'm pretty sure most of us agree on the point you're trying to make, the first post just didn't get that point across. You want a more analytical conversation as opposed to "I disagree with your use of funds→FACEPUNCH!!!!"

And I never saw any indication that SpreadsheetMan's comment was anything other than metaphorical (although maybe bit self righteous). Didn't read the thread so maybe I'm missing something?

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #724 on: October 21, 2017, 07:22:03 AM »
What i dont like are agressively rude posters who hide behind the facepunch metaphor when they are just argumentative and critical people, in general, often with their own personal agenda or chip on their shoulder (especially with respect to wealth distribution).

A perfect example.  Person A says they dont like the use of a metaphor based on a violent act. Person B says, well someone who cant tell the difference between a true violent act and a metaphor doesnt belong here.
...You want a more analytical conversation...
Has anyone read Pizza Steve's current siggy line? It's clear that he's not actually seeking "conversation", analytical or otherwise...

I have used the words "metaphor" and "facepunches" more than once in this thread, I'd like to clarify that I never said that anyone "doesn't belong here", just that there are lots of choices. Suggesting that there are other great sites with different perspectives is not the same as telling someone they don't belong here. Sheesh.


On a general note: Is there anyone who doesn't understand that the whole MMM persona is a hook, created by a guy named Pete, just to facilitate getting his points across? Pete is real, MMM is made up. Same with Facepunches. IMO, it's just a more attention-getting way of saying "Wake up!" In PF land it's all about distinguishing your voice from all the others. Pete's been very successful because he's found a unique voice with which to tell his story.

Heck, there are those who eschew the blog and forum because of the colorful language. Others look past the profanity and/or choose not to use it in their own posts. For example, ever notice how much arebelspy contributes here, yet he very seldom swears? If you don't like Facepunches, you don't have to use them. If you don't want them, don't seek them. 
There are financial blogs and forums galore, surely it's possible to find others that better suit your personal style.

Two blogs I love, that I've followed since long before Pete sprung MMM on the world, are The Non-Consumer Advocate and The Frugal Girl. Katy at NCA has a wicked sense of humor and Kristen at TFG models kindness in everything she does. Neither have forums, but both have very active comment sections and use other social media. The difference is that everyone understands that they are real people writing as themselves. I don't swear there, and I don't even hint at Facepunches. I enjoy their sites and this one in roughly equal measure. Now that JD's back at GRS, I'll add that pre-MMM site back into my reating list.

Interestingly, neither Katy or Kristen support themselves with their blog income, whereas Pete, as MMM, and JD at GRS seem to be doing quite well financially.

There are lots of great PF options out there, and plenty of paths to FIRE.


« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 09:10:07 AM by Dicey »
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Kris

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #725 on: October 21, 2017, 08:16:47 AM »
What i dont like are agressively rude posters who hide behind the facepunch metaphor when they are just argumentative and critical people, in general, often with their own personal agenda or chip on their shoulder (especially with respect to wealth distribution).

A perfect example.  Person A says they dont like the use of a metaphor based on a violent act. Person B says, well someone who cant tell the difference between a true violent act and a metaphor doesnt belong here.
...You want a more analytical conversation...
Has anyone read Pizza Steve's current siggy line? It's clear that he's not actually seeking "conversation", analytical or otherwise...


Yeah, I noticed that, too. Which struck me as... odd, to put it mildly. I mean, if you arenít interested in communicating with other people, then, why communicate, KWIM?


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SpreadsheetMan

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #726 on: October 21, 2017, 11:41:29 AM »
What i dont like are agressively rude posters who hide behind the facepunch metaphor when they are just argumentative and critical people, in general, often with their own personal agenda or chip on their shoulder (especially with respect to wealth distribution).

A perfect example.  Person A says they dont like the use of a metaphor based on a violent act. Person B says, well someone who cant tell the difference between a true violent act and a metaphor doesnt belong here.
I don't see how this is an example of the scenario you described at all. I think you were offended by Person B (who is obviously Kris) and are hiding behind an "example" to retaliate :)

But seriously, I'm pretty sure most of us agree on the point you're trying to make, the first post just didn't get that point across. You want a more analytical conversation as opposed to "I disagree with your use of funds→FACEPUNCH!!!!"

And I never saw any indication that SpreadsheetMan's comment was anything other than metaphorical (although maybe bit self righteous). Didn't read the thread so maybe I'm missing something?

No-one could see that I was smiling when I made the comment. MMMs facepunch trademark is a metaphorical wake up call rather than an actual thing.

Dabnasty

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #727 on: October 21, 2017, 12:54:35 PM »
What i dont like are agressively rude posters who hide behind the facepunch metaphor when they are just argumentative and critical people, in general, often with their own personal agenda or chip on their shoulder (especially with respect to wealth distribution).

A perfect example.  Person A says they dont like the use of a metaphor based on a violent act. Person B says, well someone who cant tell the difference between a true violent act and a metaphor doesnt belong here.
...You want a more analytical conversation...
Has anyone read Pizza Steve's current siggy line? It's clear that he's not actually seeking "conversation", analytical or otherwise...

On a general note: Is there anyone who doesn't understand that the whole MMM persona is a hook, created by a guy named Pete, just to facilitate getting his points across? Pete is real, MMM is made up. Same with Facepunches. IMO, it's just a more attention-getting way of saying "Wake up!" In PF land it's all about distinguishing your voice from all the others. Pete's been very successful because he's found a unique voice with which to tell his story.

Heck, there are those who eschew the blog and forum because of the colorful language. Others look past the profanity and/or choose not to use it in their own posts. For example, ever notice how much arebelspy contributes here, yet he very seldom swears? If you don't like Facepunches, you don't have to use them. If you don't want them, don't seek them. 
There are financial blogs and forums galore, surely it's possible to find others that better suit your personal style.

Two blogs I love, that I've followed since long before Pete sprung MMM on the world, are The Non-Consumer Advocate and The Frugal Girl. Katy at NCA has a wicked sense of humor and Kristen at TFG models kindness in everything she does. Neither have forums, but both have very active comment sections and use other social media. The difference is that everyone understands that they are real people writing as themselves. I don't swear there, and I don't even hint at Facepunches. I enjoy their sites and this one in roughly equal measure. Now that JD's back at GRS, I'll add that pre-MMM site back into my reating list.

Interestingly, neither Katy or Kristen support themselves with their blog income, whereas Pete, as MMM, and JD at GRS seem to be doing quite well financially.

There are lots of great PF options out there, and plenty of paths to FIRE.

Finally, DabnastyPizzaSteve, since I have used the words "metaphor" and "facepunches" more than once in this thread, I'd like to clarify that IKris never said that anyone "doesn't belong here", just that there are lots of choices. Suggesting that there are other great sites with different perspectives is not the same as telling someone they don't belong here. Sheesh.

This quoting business is getting real mixed up. I never suggested anyone said such a thing. PizzaSteve said that Person B said "doesn't belong here". In fact I would say Person B's (assuming that was Kris) wording was much less harsh to begin with
Quote
Look, I get it, but given that one of Pete/MMM's best-known catch phrases is giving someone who needs an attitude adjustment a "facepunch", then yeah, I'd say you're probably on the wrong forum if you don't like that phrase.

Regarding the siggy line, even if PizzaSteve is not looking to be involved in the conversations I would assume he still cares about the conversations being had. Why else would he read the forum or in this case interject?
« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 12:58:33 PM by Dabnasty »

Dabnasty

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #728 on: October 21, 2017, 01:05:06 PM »
What i dont like are agressively rude posters who hide behind the facepunch metaphor when they are just argumentative and critical people, in general, often with their own personal agenda or chip on their shoulder (especially with respect to wealth distribution).

A perfect example.  Person A says they dont like the use of a metaphor based on a violent act. Person B says, well someone who cant tell the difference between a true violent act and a metaphor doesnt belong here.
I don't see how this is an example of the scenario you described at all. I think you were offended by Person B (who is obviously Kris) and are hiding behind an "example" to retaliate :)

But seriously, I'm pretty sure most of us agree on the point you're trying to make, the first post just didn't get that point across. You want a more analytical conversation as opposed to "I disagree with your use of funds→FACEPUNCH!!!!"

And I never saw any indication that SpreadsheetMan's comment was anything other than metaphorical (although maybe bit self righteous). Didn't read the thread so maybe I'm missing something?

No-one could see that I was smiling when I made the comment. MMMs facepunch trademark is a metaphorical wake up call rather than an actual thing.
That's usually how these things get off track, hard to see intentions without body language and tone of voice. I think we tend to project our own feelings and mood onto others' comments.

nereo

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #729 on: October 22, 2017, 12:53:13 PM »
...
Quote
Two people who are frequently critical (and i suspect a male and female version of the same person) are on my ignore list and that has greatly improved my forum experience.

...there's an ignore list function?!
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Dicey

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #730 on: October 22, 2017, 02:31:15 PM »
What i dont like are agressively rude posters who hide behind the facepunch metaphor when they are just argumentative and critical people, in general, often with their own personal agenda or chip on their shoulder (especially with respect to wealth distribution).

A perfect example.  Person A says they dont like the use of a metaphor based on a violent act. Person B says, well someone who cant tell the difference between a true violent act and a metaphor doesnt belong here.
...You want a more analytical conversation...
Has anyone read Pizza Steve's current siggy line? It's clear that he's not actually seeking "conversation", analytical or otherwise...

On a general note: Is there anyone who doesn't understand that the whole MMM persona is a hook, created by a guy named Pete, just to facilitate getting his points across? Pete is real, MMM is made up. Same with Facepunches. IMO, it's just a more attention-getting way of saying "Wake up!" In PF land it's all about distinguishing your voice from all the others. Pete's been very successful because he's found a unique voice with which to tell his story.

Heck, there are those who eschew the blog and forum because of the colorful language. Others look past the profanity and/or choose not to use it in their own posts. For example, ever notice how much arebelspy contributes here, yet he very seldom swears? If you don't like Facepunches, you don't have to use them. If you don't want them, don't seek them. 
There are financial blogs and forums galore, surely it's possible to find others that better suit your personal style.

Two blogs I love, that I've followed since long before Pete sprung MMM on the world, are The Non-Consumer Advocate and The Frugal Girl. Katy at NCA has a wicked sense of humor and Kristen at TFG models kindness in everything she does. Neither have forums, but both have very active comment sections and use other social media. The difference is that everyone understands that they are real people writing as themselves. I don't swear there, and I don't even hint at Facepunches. I enjoy their sites and this one in roughly equal measure. Now that JD's back at GRS, I'll add that pre-MMM site back into my reating list.

Interestingly, neither Katy or Kristen support themselves with their blog income, whereas Pete, as MMM, and JD at GRS seem to be doing quite well financially.

There are lots of great PF options out there, and plenty of paths to FIRE.

Finally, DabnastyPizzaSteve, since I have used the words "metaphor" and "facepunches" more than once in this thread, I'd like to clarify that IKris never said that anyone "doesn't belong here", just that there are lots of choices. Suggesting that there are other great sites with different perspectives is not the same as telling someone they don't belong here. Sheesh.

This quoting business is getting real mixed up. I never suggested anyone said such a thing. PizzaSteve said that Person B said "doesn't belong here". In fact I would say Person B's (assuming that was Kris) wording was much less harsh to begin with
Quote
Look, I get it, but given that one of Pete/MMM's best-known catch phrases is giving someone who needs an attitude adjustment a "facepunch", then yeah, I'd say you're probably on the wrong forum if you don't like that phrase.

Regarding the siggy line, even if PizzaSteve is not looking to be involved in the conversations I would assume he still cares about the conversations being had. Why else would he read the forum or in this case interject?
Dabnasty, You are correct. The first mistake is mine, all mine. I have corrected the comment. I do not understand the second change you made, as I was speaking about myself, not about someone else.

As to Pizza Steve,
1. He got mad when some people disagreed with him.
2. He "left" the forum.
3. He came back, with his new siggy line.
4. He is not interested in anyone's opinion but his own, which he repeats over and over, including in this very thread. Further citations can be provided, if necessary.
5. As to your final question, again the siggy line makes it clear that he is not here to help anyone and he doesn't want anyone's feedback. Seems he just wants others to know and understand what his opinion is. Which is fine, it's his decision to make.
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Goldielocks

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #731 on: October 22, 2017, 07:45:14 PM »
...
Quote
Two people who are frequently critical (and i suspect a male and female version of the same person) are on my ignore list and that has greatly improved my forum experience.

...there's an ignore list function?!

It's a "ignore user" feature.  Works great when needed.  Blocks all the posts, (but you see that it is there) unless you click on the "view post" link.

Dicey

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #732 on: October 22, 2017, 07:54:12 PM »
...
Quote
Two people who are frequently critical (and i suspect a male and female version of the same person) are on my ignore list and that has greatly improved my forum experience.

...there's an ignore list function?!

It's a "ignore user" feature.  Works great when needed.  Blocks all the posts, (but you see that it is there) unless you click on the "view post" link.
Yes, it works until the blocked person is quoted by someone else who isn't blocked. Rather than block everyone, I'd rather just try to tune out the scratchy voice. Funny though, years ago, there was someone whose posts drove me crazy, primarily because they were so poorly written. Eventually, I just got used to his writing style and now he's absolutely one of my favorites. Go figure.
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dragoncar

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #733 on: October 22, 2017, 10:59:21 PM »
Hey PizzaSteve and GuitarStv... are you guys related?

Also, when am I gonna taste yer pizza? 

calimom

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #734 on: October 22, 2017, 11:26:57 PM »
Hey PizzaSteve and GuitarStv... are you guys related?

Also, when am I gonna taste yer pizza?

And hear your gee-tar?

dragoncar

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #735 on: October 22, 2017, 11:46:05 PM »
Hey PizzaSteve and GuitarStv... are you guys related?

Also, when am I gonna taste yer pizza?

And hear your gee-tar?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgVJC9eNb-g

watching this again, I realize there is a pizza steve trophy conspiracy
« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 11:49:23 PM by dragoncar »

boarder42

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #736 on: October 23, 2017, 05:50:27 AM »
...
Quote
Two people who are frequently critical (and i suspect a male and female version of the same person) are on my ignore list and that has greatly improved my forum experience.

...there's an ignore list function?!

It's a "ignore user" feature.  Works great when needed.  Blocks all the posts, (but you see that it is there) unless you click on the "view post" link.
Yes, it works until the blocked person is quoted by someone else who isn't blocked. Rather than block everyone, I'd rather just try to tune out the scratchy voice. Funny though, years ago, there was someone whose posts drove me crazy, primarily because they were so poorly written. Eventually, I just got used to his writing style and now he's absolutely one of my favorites. Go figure.

you realize he is saying you and i are the same person in this statement.
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Dicey

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #737 on: October 23, 2017, 07:18:10 AM »
...
Quote
Two people who are frequently critical (and i suspect a male and female version of the same person) are on my ignore list and that has greatly improved my forum experience.

...there's an ignore list function?!

It's a "ignore user" feature.  Works great when needed.  Blocks all the posts, (but you see that it is there) unless you click on the "view post" link.
Yes, it works until the blocked person is quoted by someone else who isn't blocked. Rather than block everyone, I'd rather just try to tune out the scratchy voice. Funny though, years ago, there was someone whose posts drove me crazy, primarily because they were so poorly written. Eventually, I just got used to his writing style and now he's absolutely one of my favorites. Go figure.

you realize he is saying you and i are the same person in this statement.
Hmmm, what are the odds that I could I be talking about you in mine? ;-)

God, I'd love to be that clever! No such luck, I'm afraid.
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CanuckExpat

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #738 on: October 25, 2017, 08:07:53 PM »
If if you think any of the discussions here are soft, you should peek around at the discussions in Mustachian Facebook groups (or whatever they are called)
You will be wanting to face punch your screen
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elaine amj

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #739 on: October 26, 2017, 08:37:22 AM »
If if you think any of the discussions here are soft, you should peek around at the discussions in Mustachian Facebook groups (or whatever they are called)
You will be wanting to face punch your screen
And you get the joy of using FB as a platform

Ack! I haven't ventured in those yet. Sounds like that might be a good thing.
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Zikoris

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #740 on: October 26, 2017, 09:44:26 AM »
If if you think any of the discussions here are soft, you should peek around at the discussions in Mustachian Facebook groups (or whatever they are called)
You will be wanting to face punch your screen
And you get the joy of using FB as a platform

Ack! I haven't ventured in those yet. Sounds like that might be a good thing.

The Facebook groups have totally turned into a shitshow. I honestly don't know what the point of them is anymore. I'm subscribed to like six of them. I should probably cut that down to just Canadian Mustachians and our local group.
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CanuckExpat

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #741 on: October 26, 2017, 10:13:51 AM »
The Facebook groups have totally turned into a shitshow. I honestly don't know what the point of them is anymore. I'm subscribed to like six of them. I should probably cut that down to just Canadian Mustachians and our local group.

The only point may be to keep the real train wrecks off the forum, or contained on FB?


I try not to go in too much, but off the top of my head I think I saw posts asking for help with picking a clown car SUV, and justifying a 90 mile commute or something
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Zikoris

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #742 on: October 26, 2017, 10:28:25 AM »
Okay, I axed them all except the lower incomes one and the local Vancouver one. Much better!
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boarder42

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #743 on: October 26, 2017, 11:09:35 AM »
Okay, I axed them all except the lower incomes one and the local Vancouver one. Much better!

most things on facebook are train wrecks.
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Paul der Krake

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #744 on: October 26, 2017, 10:27:33 PM »
Examples of facebook group shitshows, please.

Zikoris

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #745 on: October 26, 2017, 10:35:09 PM »
Okay, I axed them all except the lower incomes one and the local Vancouver one. Much better!

most things on facebook are train wrecks.

Hah! I actually quite like the local Vancouver Mustachian group. It's small enough that I personally know just about everyone, at least in passing, and nobody posts stupid shit. We also have pretty regular meetups, which probably keeps people more civil than more anonymous groups.
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DarkandStormy

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #746 on: October 27, 2017, 06:48:10 AM »
If if you think any of the discussions here are soft, you should peek around at the discussions in Mustachian Facebook groups (or whatever they are called)
You will be wanting to face punch your screen
And you get the joy of using FB as a platform

Ack! I haven't ventured in those yet. Sounds like that might be a good thing.

The Facebook groups have totally turned into a shitshow. I honestly don't know what the point of them is anymore. I'm subscribed to like six of them. I should probably cut that down to just Canadian Mustachians and our local group.

I'm subscribed to a couple - on one (not a Mustachian group, but FI minded) a lady was bragging about her 102% savings rate this month (102% of take home pay).  When asked how she could save more than she took home, she said something like "budgeting and I had overflow in my checking account that I didn't want to sit at 0% so I invested it - it helps that I prepay expenses 1-2 months in advance."  Uhhh that's not a 102% savings rate, that's an Asset Allocation reset because you decided to move a bulk of your cash into investments.  You didn't "save" any extra you just decided to move cash into the market.

Plus, it's not like people who front load their 401ks and Roth IRAs in January & February go around bragging about a 150% savings rate for that month...it'll even out later in the year most likely.
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boarder42

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #747 on: October 27, 2017, 09:15:04 AM »
If if you think any of the discussions here are soft, you should peek around at the discussions in Mustachian Facebook groups (or whatever they are called)
You will be wanting to face punch your screen
And you get the joy of using FB as a platform

Ack! I haven't ventured in those yet. Sounds like that might be a good thing.

The Facebook groups have totally turned into a shitshow. I honestly don't know what the point of them is anymore. I'm subscribed to like six of them. I should probably cut that down to just Canadian Mustachians and our local group.

I'm subscribed to a couple - on one (not a Mustachian group, but FI minded) a lady was bragging about her 102% savings rate this month (102% of take home pay).  When asked how she could save more than she took home, she said something like "budgeting and I had overflow in my checking account that I didn't want to sit at 0% so I invested it - it helps that I prepay expenses 1-2 months in advance."  Uhhh that's not a 102% savings rate, that's an Asset Allocation reset because you decided to move a bulk of your cash into investments.  You didn't "save" any extra you just decided to move cash into the market.

Plus, it's not like people who front load their 401ks and Roth IRAs in January & February go around bragging about a 150% savings rate for that month...it'll even out later in the year most likely.

even worse she's pre payiing expenses 1-2 months in andvance.  how is that for making your money work for other people.
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nereo

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #748 on: October 27, 2017, 09:23:13 AM »
If if you think any of the discussions here are soft, you should peek around at the discussions in Mustachian Facebook groups (or whatever they are called)
You will be wanting to face punch your screen
And you get the joy of using FB as a platform

Ack! I haven't ventured in those yet. Sounds like that might be a good thing.

The Facebook groups have totally turned into a shitshow. I honestly don't know what the point of them is anymore. I'm subscribed to like six of them. I should probably cut that down to just Canadian Mustachians and our local group.

I'm subscribed to a couple - on one (not a Mustachian group, but FI minded) a lady was bragging about her 102% savings rate this month (102% of take home pay).  When asked how she could save more than she took home, she said something like "budgeting and I had overflow in my checking account that I didn't want to sit at 0% so I invested it - it helps that I prepay expenses 1-2 months in advance."  Uhhh that's not a 102% savings rate, that's an Asset Allocation reset because you decided to move a bulk of your cash into investments.  You didn't "save" any extra you just decided to move cash into the market.

Plus, it's not like people who front load their 401ks and Roth IRAs in January & February go around bragging about a 150% savings rate for that month...it'll even out later in the year most likely.
...wait, what does the "shockingly simple math" say about a 102% savings rate?
:-)
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DarkandStormy

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #749 on: October 27, 2017, 09:31:33 AM »
If if you think any of the discussions here are soft, you should peek around at the discussions in Mustachian Facebook groups (or whatever they are called)
You will be wanting to face punch your screen
And you get the joy of using FB as a platform

Ack! I haven't ventured in those yet. Sounds like that might be a good thing.

The Facebook groups have totally turned into a shitshow. I honestly don't know what the point of them is anymore. I'm subscribed to like six of them. I should probably cut that down to just Canadian Mustachians and our local group.

I'm subscribed to a couple - on one (not a Mustachian group, but FI minded) a lady was bragging about her 102% savings rate this month (102% of take home pay).  When asked how she could save more than she took home, she said something like "budgeting and I had overflow in my checking account that I didn't want to sit at 0% so I invested it - it helps that I prepay expenses 1-2 months in advance."  Uhhh that's not a 102% savings rate, that's an Asset Allocation reset because you decided to move a bulk of your cash into investments.  You didn't "save" any extra you just decided to move cash into the market.

Plus, it's not like people who front load their 401ks and Roth IRAs in January & February go around bragging about a 150% savings rate for that month...it'll even out later in the year most likely.

even worse she's pre payiing expenses 1-2 months in andvance.  how is that for making your money work for other people.

Haha, right?  If you're calculating savings rate based on investments, that's fine...but you obviously sat on a pile of cash for a couple months so your savings rate in the prior months must have been pretty poor.  It'll even itself out over 12 months.

If you're calculating based on take home pay, in theory you could reach 100%...your employer 401k match + HSA contribution could equal your expenses.  Say they contribute $35k to your 401k (unlikely) and $3k to your HSA - that's $38k of savings right there.  It's possible I guess, but I highly doubt there's anyone out there in that situation.
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