Author Topic: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?  (Read 91860 times)

Goldielocks

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #650 on: October 10, 2017, 04:26:06 PM »
yeah, erm.   Lots of ego in this note.   DH works programming for a small manufacturer in industrial sensors.  Makes $60k.   Not saying that he couldn't make more (15 years ago, he topped $125k/yr, which would be more today), just that there are reasons beyond the facile list that you put here.  Where you live being one of them.  Having a job for 35 hours a week that you can bike to, that lets you buy and run 3D printers as an experiment in R&D is another.   The primary one really is that his industry is not programming for office software, but industrial manufacturing, at a small business locally.

Yeah that came across a little aggressive. Sorry. I still stand by the basic math and assertion, though. 60k average starting salary was ~15 years ago. So if you'll give me 3% inflation just like for the 4% rule, 60k * 1.03^15 = 93.5k. For a large enough sample, close to 50% of today's graduating class should be making over 100k, if not now, then very very soon (2 years). Looks like that 3% assumption isn't too far off based on current numbers: https://cs.illinois.edu/about-us/statistics

You can say, "oh that's a top school" and sure that's true, but there's a lot of top schools graduating very large CS classes. You're going to have to work to pull that number down.

I see where you are going with this, but your CPI is stated higher than the actual 1-2% that it has been for the past 15 years.
Our area is currently 128 index (2017) when the 2002 index was 100.
So $60k x 1.28 = $76.8k, not $100k

But programmers in 2002 locally did not start at $60k... that was the starting salary here in about 2009 (same as the engineering starting salary if you had 1 year work experience through another job or co-ops).

So it looks more like $52k x 1.28 = $66.5k  is the 2017 starting salary.   It is all about local markets....  Now it makes the $90k average across Canada that the other poster mentioned look realistic, and your assertion that "you are going to have to work to pull [$100k avg] down" simply is tunnel visioned to your local market.

I mean, there is a reason that Microsoft, Intel, Google and Amazon are all coming to Canada for secondary offices, and it is not just about the exchange rate and taxation splitting.

AccidentialMustache

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #651 on: October 10, 2017, 07:31:12 PM »
92.5k is the *average* starting salary for the UIUC CS class who graduated in the spring of 2016. Hit the link if you don't believe me. They graduate a bit over 300 students a year. That's not a local market, that's the average of the market where those graduates went -- and you're right, a lot of that market is going to be NYC/SF/Seattle/Portland/Silicon Valley and similar... but a lot won't go that route either, choosing to work somewhere less expensive, or choosing a lower stress path.

Goldielocks

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #652 on: October 10, 2017, 08:33:47 PM »
92.5k is the *average* starting salary for the UIUC CS class who graduated in the spring of 2016. Hit the link if you don't believe me. They graduate a bit over 300 students a year. That's not a local market, that's the average of the market where those graduates went -- and you're right, a lot of that market is going to be NYC/SF/Seattle/Portland/Silicon Valley and similar... but a lot won't go that route either, choosing to work somewhere less expensive, or choosing a lower stress path.

Of course I believe you... for UIUC and mega urban markets of NY, Seattle, and Silicon Valley...... my point is that salaries are very much based on local market conditions and the specific industry one is programming for.  Heck, a friend of mine programs for a firm in NY from his home office in Canada... he has done this specialized financial markets programming and support for over 20 years now, and I think he makes about $85k CAD, despite his NJ peers that go into an office making well over $120kUS, and the NYC based ones  for the same company make even more.  Your tone and implication that "all software programmers should be making over $100k per year or they suck at their career"  (paraphrased, obviously you were not this blunt) is what has me posting these responses.



Do you not get the idea that every career's salary is equally driven by local market conditions,  as much sometimes as

gerardc

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #653 on: October 10, 2017, 08:40:20 PM »
92.5k is the *average* starting salary for the UIUC CS class who graduated in the spring of 2016. Hit the link if you don't believe me. They graduate a bit over 300 students a year. That's not a local market, that's the average of the market where those graduates went -- and you're right, a lot of that market is going to be NYC/SF/Seattle/Portland/Silicon Valley and similar... but a lot won't go that route either, choosing to work somewhere less expensive, or choosing a lower stress path.

Of course I believe you... for UIUC and mega urban markets of NY, Seattle, and Silicon Valley...... my point is that salaries are very much based on local market conditions and the specific industry one is programming for.  Heck, a friend of mine programs for a firm in NY from his home office in Canada... he has done this specialized financial markets programming and support for over 20 years now, and I think he makes about $85k CAD, despite his NJ peers that go into an office making well over $120kUS, and the NYC based ones  for the same company make even more.  Your tone and implication that "all software programmers should be making over $100k per year or they suck at their career"  (paraphrased, obviously you were not this blunt) is what has me posting these responses.


Do you not get the idea that every career's salary is equally driven by local market conditions,  as much sometimes as

They can just move then? The point is any software engineer can make $100k if they try, and if they don't suck.

Funny how buying a $5 latte is "complainypants", but refusing to move to grow your salary 2X is "totally justified, because you deserve it", or because your family can't stop whining?

Don't be penny wise and pound foolish.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 08:42:18 PM by gerardc »

Goldielocks

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #654 on: October 10, 2017, 09:11:27 PM »

.. any software engineer can make $100k if they try, and if they don't suck.

Funny how buying a $5 latte is "complainypants", but refusing to move to grow your salary 2X is "totally justified, because you deserve it", or because your family can't stop whining?

Don't be penny wise and pound foolish.

!?!!

For the record I am not complaining about income differentials by region at all. Certainly not.  It is a fact of life and I am just pointing that out to you and the Accident.  But to claim that the only reason programmers who don't make $100k is because they suck..?!!  Wow.

......
Not many people would be called "complainypants" for hesitating about moving to another country, honestly, that immigration process is two steps forward, 4.5 steps back until all the PR status processing is complete, which puts your life on hold for over 5 years.

gerardc

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #655 on: October 10, 2017, 09:21:46 PM »
But to claim that the only reason programmers who don't make $100k is because they suck..?!!  Wow.

Either you're being disingenuous or you can't read. Which is it?

PoutineLover

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #656 on: October 10, 2017, 09:47:47 PM »
92.5k is the *average* starting salary for the UIUC CS class who graduated in the spring of 2016. Hit the link if you don't believe me. They graduate a bit over 300 students a year. That's not a local market, that's the average of the market where those graduates went -- and you're right, a lot of that market is going to be NYC/SF/Seattle/Portland/Silicon Valley and similar... but a lot won't go that route either, choosing to work somewhere less expensive, or choosing a lower stress path.

Of course I believe you... for UIUC and mega urban markets of NY, Seattle, and Silicon Valley...... my point is that salaries are very much based on local market conditions and the specific industry one is programming for.  Heck, a friend of mine programs for a firm in NY from his home office in Canada... he has done this specialized financial markets programming and support for over 20 years now, and I think he makes about $85k CAD, despite his NJ peers that go into an office making well over $120kUS, and the NYC based ones  for the same company make even more.  Your tone and implication that "all software programmers should be making over $100k per year or they suck at their career"  (paraphrased, obviously you were not this blunt) is what has me posting these responses.


Do you not get the idea that every career's salary is equally driven by local market conditions,  as much sometimes as

They can just move then? The point is any software engineer can make $100k if they try, and if they don't suck.

Funny how buying a $5 latte is "complainypants", but refusing to move to grow your salary 2X is "totally justified, because you deserve it", or because your family can't stop whining?

Don't be penny wise and pound foolish.
There are many reasons not to move just for a higher salary. Some people want to stay near their families, they have bigger support network in their current location, the cost of living won't make the move worth it, they have a spouse with a career that is not so easily transferable.. It's not complainypants to evaluate the tradeoffs and decide that the lower salary is worth it for the other benefits.
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dragoncar

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #657 on: October 11, 2017, 12:47:30 AM »
But to claim that the only reason programmers who don't make $100k is because they suck..?!!  Wow.

Either you're being disingenuous or you can't read. Which is it?

If you try to write better, maybe more people will understand what you are trying to say.  Unless you suck at writing, that is.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #658 on: October 11, 2017, 02:14:42 AM »
Forum rule 1.
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farfromfire

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #659 on: October 11, 2017, 02:36:23 AM »
92.5k is the *average* starting salary for the UIUC CS class who graduated in the spring of 2016. Hit the link if you don't believe me. They graduate a bit over 300 students a year. That's not a local market, that's the average of the market where those graduates went -- and you're right, a lot of that market is going to be NYC/SF/Seattle/Portland/Silicon Valley and similar... but a lot won't go that route either, choosing to work somewhere less expensive, or choosing a lower stress path.

Of course I believe you... for UIUC and mega urban markets of NY, Seattle, and Silicon Valley...... my point is that salaries are very much based on local market conditions and the specific industry one is programming for.  Heck, a friend of mine programs for a firm in NY from his home office in Canada... he has done this specialized financial markets programming and support for over 20 years now, and I think he makes about $85k CAD, despite his NJ peers that go into an office making well over $120kUS, and the NYC based ones  for the same company make even more.  Your tone and implication that "all software programmers should be making over $100k per year or they suck at their career"  (paraphrased, obviously you were not this blunt) is what has me posting these responses.


Do you not get the idea that every career's salary is equally driven by local market conditions,  as much sometimes as

They can just move then? The point is any software engineer can make $100k if they try, and if they don't suck.

Funny how buying a $5 latte is "complainypants", but refusing to move to grow your salary 2X is "totally justified, because you deserve it", or because your family can't stop whining?

Don't be penny wise and pound foolish.
From the way you interact with people, it's easy to see that you would be moving alone, which is pretty easy with low downside. Moving as a family? very much less so.

MOD NOTE: Don't be rude, please.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 09:19:26 AM by arebelspy »

shelivesthedream

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #660 on: October 11, 2017, 04:48:40 AM »
I do find the people seeking permission to be antimustachian a bit weird. Sure, ask for advice, but some of them really seem to need permission and then get upset when they don't get it.
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ketchup

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #661 on: October 11, 2017, 07:51:10 AM »
I do find the people seeking permission to be antimustachian a bit weird. Sure, ask for advice, but some of them really seem to need permission and then get upset when they don't get it.
My favorite is:
OP: Please tell me why this crazy thing doesn't make sense, I can't figure out how it would be a bad idea.
Answer from multiple people: Yes, it's crazy and doesn't make any sense because X, Y, and Z.  You could do A, B, or C instead.
OP: But I wanna!

Paraphrased but that's how it comes off.  If you want to buy something outrageous, well, you're an adult and you don't need to ask anyone's permission to make mistakes.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #662 on: October 11, 2017, 08:11:55 AM »
I know! I often come on to ask for information/advice about things I don't end up doing, but then I put on my big girl pants and decide I don't have the time or energy or whatever and move on with my life. I just want to make an informed decision, not to justify doing things that no reason on Earth would stop me doing.
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Barbaebigode

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #663 on: October 11, 2017, 08:49:49 AM »
I do find the people seeking permission to be antimustachian a bit weird. Sure, ask for advice, but some of them really seem to need permission and then get upset when they don't get it.
My favorite is:
OP: Please tell me why this crazy thing doesn't make sense, I can't figure out how it would be a bad idea.
Answer from multiple people: Yes, it's crazy and doesn't make any sense because X, Y, and Z.  You could do A, B, or C instead.
Answer from multiple people 2: Oh, we have two and it's totally worth it!
OP: But I wanna!

Paraphrased but that's how it comes off.  If you want to buy something outrageous, well, you're an adult and you don't need to ask anyone's permission to make mistakes.

Fixed that for you.

ketchup

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #664 on: October 11, 2017, 09:04:31 AM »
I do find the people seeking permission to be antimustachian a bit weird. Sure, ask for advice, but some of them really seem to need permission and then get upset when they don't get it.
My favorite is:
OP: Please tell me why this crazy thing doesn't make sense, I can't figure out how it would be a bad idea.
Answer from multiple people: Yes, it's crazy and doesn't make any sense because X, Y, and Z.  You could do A, B, or C instead.
Answer from multiple people 2: Oh, we have two and it's totally worth it!
OP: But I wanna!

Paraphrased but that's how it comes off.  If you want to buy something outrageous, well, you're an adult and you don't need to ask anyone's permission to make mistakes.

Fixed that for you.
GAH, you're right.  Fuck.

BlueMR2

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #665 on: October 11, 2017, 04:16:41 PM »
They can just move then? The point is any software engineer can make $100k if they try, and if they don't suck.

Funny how buying a $5 latte is "complainypants", but refusing to move to grow your salary 2X is "totally justified, because you deserve it", or because your family can't stop whining?

Don't be penny wise and pound foolish.

For sure.  Do all the math.  I've walked away from potential big salary increases because they also come along with much larger COL increases!  I only make half here as I could somewhere else, but even basic expenses in those other places would consume more than the excess...  I'd *lose* moving to a big city for those high paying jobs in my field!

happy

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #666 on: October 12, 2017, 12:58:07 AM »
I do find the people seeking permission to be antimustachian a bit weird. Sure, ask for advice, but some of them really seem to need permission and then get upset when they don't get it.

+1. I mean why do that?

None of us are perfect, and I for one, on occasion  engage in an activity/purchase thats not fully mustachian. I know that, and its a choice I make and take responsibility for. But I definitely wouldn't ask on the forum should I do/buy whatever.
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Fire2025

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #667 on: October 13, 2017, 12:16:09 PM »
I do find the people seeking permission to be antimustachian a bit weird. Sure, ask for advice, but some of them really seem to need permission and then get upset when they don't get it.

+1. I mean why do that?

None of us are perfect, and I for one, on occasion  engage in an activity/purchase thats not fully mustachian. I know that, and its a choice I make and take responsibility for. But I definitely wouldn't ask on the forum should I do/buy whatever.

This is the part I find weirdest also, I do things that I know I shouldn't, but I would never come this group to get the "okay" for them.  That's what the rest of the world is for.  They will tell me I "deserve" and can "afford" a latte a day and a new car payment.  I'm here because, when my financial wonderlust sets in, I want a facepunch to get me back to earth.

boarder42

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #668 on: October 13, 2017, 01:23:50 PM »
I do find the people seeking permission to be antimustachian a bit weird. Sure, ask for advice, but some of them really seem to need permission and then get upset when they don't get it.

+1. I mean why do that?

None of us are perfect, and I for one, on occasion  engage in an activity/purchase thats not fully mustachian. I know that, and its a choice I make and take responsibility for. But I definitely wouldn't ask on the forum should I do/buy whatever.

This is the part I find weirdest also, I do things that I know I shouldn't, but I would never come this group to get the "okay" for them.  That's what the rest of the world is for.  They will tell me I "deserve" and can "afford" a latte a day and a new car payment.  I'm here because, when my financial wonderlust sets in, I want a facepunch to get me back to earth.

but you have to care about others feelings now ... its no longer cool to give face punches ... its cool to be offended.  regardless of what was said, if it can be construed as offensive people will immediately jump on it.  and face punches are by their very nature offensive... so as society goes so does the forum and you're now a bad guy for face punching and a good guy for supporting those 5 starbucks a week b/c YOLO, Enjoy your money now why are you saving for what may never come.

at its core the money saving retire early side of mustachianism is mathmatical and every decision can be put into a math equation.  purchases are emotional and most people cant set that aside and see numbers
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GuitarStv

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #669 on: October 13, 2017, 01:27:05 PM »
If we post a trigger warning before facepunching does that make it OK?

CanuckExpat

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #670 on: October 13, 2017, 02:02:50 PM »
If you do it right, eventually someone will call you condescending and unrealistic. It means you are doing something right.
The easiest way is usually to tell someone to ride a bike instead of their car
Hasn't happened in a while, I should post some more.

elaine amj

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #671 on: October 13, 2017, 02:06:01 PM »
This is the part I find weirdest also, I do things that I know I shouldn't, but I would never come this group to get the "okay" for them.  That's what the rest of the world is for.  They will tell me I "deserve" and can "afford" a latte a day and a new car payment.  I'm here because, when my financial wonderlust sets in, I want a facepunch to get me back to earth.

Ditto. I come here FOR facepunches and to get a dose to reality. Otherwise, I can post on FB and have plenty of people tell me congratulate me for buying such and such.

That said, journals should be a safe zone unless facepunches are requested.
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slappy

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #672 on: October 13, 2017, 02:09:51 PM »
If we post a trigger warning before facepunching does that make it OK?

I've often wondered this...at what point does the word trigger become a trigger? Like a Pavlovian trigger?

calimom

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #673 on: October 13, 2017, 02:31:56 PM »

[/quote]

Ditto. I come here FOR facepunches and to get a dose to reality. Otherwise, I can post on FB and have plenty of people tell me congratulate me for buying such and such.

That said, journals should be a safe zone unless facepunches are requested.
[/quote]

But doesn't it seem odd to have a journal on a forum that's devoted to financial independence and smarter living and then post things like: "I spent more than I made for the 17th month in a row! Silly me. Doh" or "I bought a ring from a mall jeweler for my loser boyfriend to pretend to give me and put it on 120 easy monthly payments. Now to plan my dream Disney wedding. We'll charge that too, of course."

There are great journals and people who really seem to live up to the tenets of this community, and others who seem to just be seeking attention and justification.

Canadian Ben

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #674 on: October 13, 2017, 02:46:34 PM »
In journals, you can be nicer, just point it out. In case studies, Attack!

elaine amj

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #675 on: October 13, 2017, 02:49:50 PM »
In journals, you can be nicer, just point it out. In case studies, Attack!

LOL - I like it!
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CanuckExpat

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #676 on: October 13, 2017, 06:29:29 PM »
In case studies punch them in the face, in journals hold their hand, and then punch them in the face?

FiveSigmas

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #677 on: October 13, 2017, 08:11:04 PM »
In case studies punch them in the face, in journals hold their hand, and then punch them in the face?


?

Paul der Krake

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #678 on: October 13, 2017, 08:12:02 PM »
There is no reason to feel bad about pushing people to be better, so long as you aren't a complete condescending dick while doing it.

FiveSigmas

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #679 on: October 13, 2017, 08:40:43 PM »
This thread reminds me of Nords's wisdom from back in 2013:

Quote
This forum is following the typical growth curve... from a relatively quiet meetup at a local park to a gigantic chaotic festival with a mosh pit, security guards, and an infirmary run by Wavy Gravy.  The tone's going to change because the crowd grows to resemble a greater slice of society's lower common denominator instead of a small group of like-minded yet radical-thinking individuals. 

It happened with Early-Retirement.org about 6-8 years ago and it happened with Bogleheads.org from the beginning (the Vanguard Diehards core that escaped Morningstar's implosion).  Those of you who grow weary of this forum will eventually splinter off to form your own new radical group, and so the cycle will continue.

Jacob Lund Fisker burned out after a few years.  How much longer can MMM keep up the refrain?  Hard to predict.  But someone else will always take up the torch.

I'm curious who's going to be this person. (Secretly, I'm hoping that Sol will be looking for a new project to occupy some of his free time, but I'm not holding my breath).

Like y'all, I do miss "the old days" of a few years ago. Without the threat of face-punches, I feel like I've gone a bit flabby myself.

lhamo

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #680 on: October 13, 2017, 09:49:05 PM »
Like y'all, I do miss "the old days" of a few years ago. Without the threat of face-punches, I feel like I've gone a bit flabby myself.

Subject yourself to a case study, my friend -- we'll whip you back into shape in no time!
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sol

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #681 on: October 13, 2017, 09:50:08 PM »
(Secretly, I'm hoping that Sol will be looking for a new project to occupy some of his free time, but I'm not holding my breath).

You're not the only person to express this thought, and I do like to write and I think I would enjoy writing a blog.  I intended to start one this summer, but then family relocations and a bunch of tenant turnover sucked up a lot of my free time on top of my 9-5 and three kids.

So I'll get around to it eventually.  You're all invited.  I'll start a thread soliciting ideas, when the time comes.
sol will be totally offline for most of June 2018.  You cannot reach me.  You will not hear from me.  I am not dead, just away from civilization.

calimom

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #682 on: October 13, 2017, 11:13:41 PM »
(Secretly, I'm hoping that Sol will be looking for a new project to occupy some of his free time, but I'm not holding my breath).

You're not the only person to express this thought, and I do like to write and I think I would enjoy writing a blog.  I intended to start one this summer, but then family relocations and a bunch of tenant turnover sucked up a lot of my free time on top of my 9-5 and three kids.

So I'll get around to it eventually.  You're all invited.  I'll start a thread soliciting ideas, when the time comes.

Let's hope you do. Your writing and viewpoint are great. And when you do confess to driving your new leased Denali through the Starbucks to get Grande Mochacinos on your way to buy a Vitamix and Instapot on your maxed out 23% VISA card we'll just titter and say "oh Sol, you rascal". The wrath we'll save for a 25 year old  noob with a 75% savings rate in a Case Study who confesses to hiking  along a trail with his Friday night treat of a Dos Equis. Why didn't you just slurp water out of the stream in the cow pasture??If you get giardia you'll spend less on food next week!!!

shelivesthedream

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #683 on: October 14, 2017, 03:07:59 AM »
The thing about journals is that you're spending a sustained amount of time following along with one person who posts whatever they want, so presumably you'd be able to get a sense of whether they would welcome facepunches there or not. I've had lots of encouragement and a few stern talking tos but I think it's pretty evident from what I post there (both tone and topic) that I wouldn't welcome someone charging in with all fists blazing. Others are different and hopefully one can see that.

When I post elsewhere, if it's something I am really not interested in receiving any facepunches about then I'll put that in the OP and ask people to be gentle. Likewise, if I know I need a good shake up I'll request people don't hold back their facepunches!
Journal: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/young-uk-little-money-lots-of-dreams/

Do I seem curt or like I've missed the point? Please forgive me - I've probably been typing attached to a baby.

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #684 on: October 14, 2017, 05:50:47 AM »
(Secretly, I'm hoping that Sol will be looking for a new project to occupy some of his free time, but I'm not holding my breath).

You're not the only person to express this thought, and I do like to write and I think I would enjoy writing a blog.  I intended to start one this summer, but then family relocations and a bunch of tenant turnover sucked up a lot of my free time on top of my 9-5 and three kids.

So I'll get around to it eventually.  You're all invited.  I'll start a thread soliciting ideas, when the time comes.
Even me?? 
What shall it be called?  Sol's Sunny Outlook on Life (a bit tongue in cheek)....?
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #685 on: October 14, 2017, 06:02:38 AM »
Part of the problem is that people aren't really taught to be tactful anymore. There's a way of giving face punches that will result in the person saying "Thank you, sir. May I please have another?" There are also people who simply aren't prepared for accepting criticism of any kind. We need to know when forceful criticism is necessary, when it's welcome, and when it's a lost cause.

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #686 on: October 15, 2017, 05:56:41 PM »
Gotta say, this facepunch topic has been bugging me. Recently, I've said things like "Do you realize you're asking for advice in Facepunch Land?" to a few people. I've then been called out for face punching. WTF? Since when is using the term in a sentence the same as delivering an actual facepunch? Answer: When the community's gone soft. Caveat: I do not believe the community actually HAS gone soft.  I've noticed that the overwhelming majority of whingers are comparative newbs.

Many of us old-timers (Ha!) came over from the MMM blog. We knew and appreciated Pete's* tough-love, stoic style. Perhaps a lot of newbs are jumping straight onto the forum with no understanding of the environment they've launched themselves into.

Sidebar: An early member, Serpentstooth, started a thread called "Facepunch Me". She has long moved on, but her thread still gets hits. I smile and wish her well each time someone bumps the thread. I do hope she's found her happy ever after.

*In my general vicinity, there's a place called "Pete's Brass Rail and Car Wash". The subtitle is "There is no Brass Rail. There is no Car Wash. And who the hell is Pete?" I think of that every time I use MMM's given name.
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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #687 on: October 15, 2017, 07:52:23 PM »
Well, when I started reading the blog and participating in the forum, the US seemed a lot less volatile and a 'facepunch' was a silly hyperbole.  Nowadays 'facepunching' (and violence in general) literally happens at 'peaceful' protests, on college campuses, and even at professional sports.  Maybe I've become sensitized, but I've had enough with that part of the community and don't want to see it make a comeback.
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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #688 on: October 16, 2017, 04:34:25 AM »
Well, when I started reading the blog and participating in the forum, the US seemed a lot less volatile and a 'facepunch' was a silly hyperbole.  Nowadays 'facepunching' (and violence in general) literally happens at 'peaceful' protests, on college campuses, and even at professional sports.  Maybe I've become sensitized, but I've had enough with that part of the community and don't want to see it make a comeback.

Interesting point.  I think the underlying intention behind the "face punch" are still the same - giving someone an acute dose of fiscal reality when their actions are needlessly wasteful - but sadly I'd have to agree that the enviornment has changed so that the word itself carries a much darker tone. After all, in practice isn't a "facepunch" here the same as "tough love" or "the brutal truth" or a "bucket of ice-cold reality"?  Yet when we talk about facepunching now i can't help but relate it to our political enviornment where the exact opposite is happening; people are literally getting punched in the face for telling people what they honestly believe.
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EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #689 on: October 16, 2017, 07:45:47 AM »
Well, when I started reading the blog and participating in the forum, the US seemed a lot less volatile and a 'facepunch' was a silly hyperbole.  Nowadays 'facepunching' (and violence in general) literally happens at 'peaceful' protests, on college campuses, and even at professional sports.  Maybe I've become sensitized, but I've had enough with that part of the community and don't want to see it make a comeback.

Interesting point.  I think the underlying intention behind the "face punch" are still the same - giving someone an acute dose of fiscal reality when their actions are needlessly wasteful - but sadly I'd have to agree that the enviornment has changed so that the word itself carries a much darker tone. After all, in practice isn't a "facepunch" here the same as "tough love" or "the brutal truth" or a "bucket of ice-cold reality"?  Yet when we talk about facepunching now i can't help but relate it to our political enviornment where the exact opposite is happening; people are literally getting punched in the face for telling people what they honestly believe.

Thanks for your thoughts on it.  When I started, people gave me a few facepunches (and called me complainypants) and I took it all in stride since I was pretty close to FI anyway and could handle a little criticism, although the delivery felt a little childish.  Just like in real life, sometimes I agreed that my decisions were not optimal or efficient, but calling out violence and names in the middle of a discussion usually distracted me from the message.  I think for a newer member or someone getting started on FI, there is a more effective   delivery of "wake up and figure out if you want FIRE or consumer slavery".  Maybe the community has 'softened' but to me that's a sign of maturity.
Transitioning to FIRE'd albeit somewhat cautiously...

elaine amj

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #690 on: October 16, 2017, 08:16:31 AM »
A lot of it was originally based on MMM's blogs and the terminology he chose to highlight his points. Perhaps the currently politically sensitive environment is time to change up our community's "traditions" and use words like "tough love" instead?

For me, Pete's concept of complainypants really resonated with me. For most of us, the gut reaction to suggestions is to come up with a litany of excuses as to why it can't work that way for me. Just read the comments from the general population about any FIRE-ee (like MMM) and you'll see a whole bunch of
- "it can't work because.."
- "well, he's different because..."
- "he's an arrogant whatever showing off his specialness..."
- "his numbers are wrong because he categorized XX incorrectly.."
- "average Joe cannot FIRE because he's laden with student debt, has a house, kids, and God forbid those kids don't get to play travel hockey!"
It's like everyone has to drag everybody else to the lowest common denominator to prove that obviously such specialness is not achievable by the regular human. His posts on this syndrome finally opened my eyes to my own inclinations to do the exact same thing.

Many many times, we need to quit trying to figure out why something can't work and focus on getting creative to make something work. Which is what I love about the community here. So many incredibly smart people coming up with creative solutions to achieve a goal.
My journal: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/realigning-spending-to-match-our-future-goals-a-canadian-journey/

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calimom

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #691 on: October 16, 2017, 11:56:35 AM »
[quote author=elaine amj .

Many many times, we need to quit trying to figure out why something can't work and focus on getting creative to make something work. Which is what I love about the community here. So many incredibly smart people coming up with creative solutions to achieve a goal.
[/quote]

What most of us get out of a site like this is solution based thinking. Agree 100% about finding creative ways to make something happen as opposed to whining about how the deck is stacked against you. It can be a head scratcher when people who've been here for awhile present some financial/work/home/spending issue, receive lots of feedback, and then do nothing much about it. Their zoo, their monkeys of course, but they seem to be missing some crucial point.

Uturn

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #692 on: October 17, 2017, 09:23:09 PM »
I don't think this forum has gone soft, I think it has gone more mainstream.  My perspective it the major first world countries.  I don't think many folks from Zimbabwe or Afghanistan frequent this site.

The vast majority of us, going down to lower middle and upper poor class, get in our reliable cars and drive paved roads to a stable job.  We work in safe environments, and if they are not safe, it can be resolved with a phone call or two.  We work our shift and drive our reliable car on paved roads back to our weather tight home.  We might stop by a well stocked grocery store to pick up some affordable food.  We walk into those weather tight homes, turn on the tv, take a leak and flush the toilet with running water, and have a nice dinner.  Over dinner we discuss how bad our lives are and we need to improve them.  We decide to finance our way out of this hard life.  We open monthly subscriptions to various services, we finance a nicer reliable car, and upgrade to a bigger weather tight house, we pay someone to mow the nice lawn.  We eat out because our jobs are too stressful to worry about cooking, we watch tv instead of interacting with our neighbors, we build 6' wooden fences to keep people out instead of getting to know who lives next door, then we drink or other such indulgences because we are fighting loneliness and stress from jobs and stress.   

I think Pete's original message is for us to take a step back and analyze our situation.  We are social beings.  Why are we actively configuring our lives to remove the social aspect?  Why are we trying to outdo our neighbors instead of getting to know them?  We are also physical beings.  Why are we sitting in an office chair in order to make more money to pay someone to do our physical things that we are perfectly capable of?  Why drive a 2 ton vehicle 1.5 mile to the store when we can walk it in half an hour or cycle it in 4 minutes?  What will your kids have better memories of, the well made movies 3 times a week, or the same hours of your poorly played ukulele and singing?

We all know the guy who works 60+ hours a week to afford the $50k truck that pulls the $40k boat to the lake on the weekend, and always seems stressed out.  We also know the guy who drive a reasonable used car, no boat, but has a good relationship with his friends and neighbors.  Who do you want to be, and who do you want to spend your time with?   
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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #693 on: October 18, 2017, 03:20:06 AM »
... well then there's this.  A poster literally asked to be facepunched ofr considering a $3500 stereo system while he is still accumulating wealth and has young kinds.  The very first response said "sure, you cna't deny yourself all luxuries!"
thankfully a nice platoon of other posters came in to give the required facepunches, with some good advice to boot.
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

slappy

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #694 on: October 18, 2017, 05:50:28 AM »
... well then there's this.  A poster literally asked to be facepunched ofr considering a $3500 stereo system while he is still accumulating wealth and has young kinds.  The very first response said "sure, you cna't deny yourself all luxuries!"
thankfully a nice platoon of other posters came in to give the required facepunches, with some good advice to boot.

I saw that post and considered linking this post. Lol

boarder42

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #695 on: October 18, 2017, 10:51:15 AM »
... well then there's this.  A poster literally asked to be facepunched ofr considering a $3500 stereo system while he is still accumulating wealth and has young kinds.  The very first response said "sure, you cna't deny yourself all luxuries!"
thankfully a nice platoon of other posters came in to give the required facepunches, with some good advice to boot.

I saw that post and considered linking this post. Lol

same i couldnt help but laugh... mustachianism is about balance.  no not when it comes to 3500 dollar stereos
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solon

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #696 on: October 18, 2017, 10:53:20 AM »
... well then there's this.  A poster literally asked to be facepunched ofr considering a $3500 stereo system while he is still accumulating wealth and has young kinds.  The very first response said "sure, you cna't deny yourself all luxuries!"
thankfully a nice platoon of other posters came in to give the required facepunches, with some good advice to boot.

I saw that post and considered linking this post. Lol

same i couldnt help but laugh... mustachianism is about balance.  no not when it comes to 3500 dollar stereos

Somebody should reply to that poster - with a facepunch.

nereo

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #697 on: October 18, 2017, 12:02:14 PM »
... well then there's this.  A poster literally asked to be facepunched ofr considering a $3500 stereo system while he is still accumulating wealth and has young kinds.  The very first response said "sure, you cna't deny yourself all luxuries!"
thankfully a nice platoon of other posters came in to give the required facepunches, with some good advice to boot.

I saw that post and considered linking this post. Lol

same i couldnt help but laugh... mustachianism is about balance.  no not when it comes to 3500 dollar stereos

Somebody should reply to that poster - with a facepunch.
see above - several people already have, plus some useful advice given.
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

Dabnasty

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #698 on: October 18, 2017, 12:33:34 PM »
I don't think this forum has gone soft, I think it has gone more mainstream.  My perspective it the major first world countries.  I don't think many folks from Zimbabwe or Afghanistan frequent this site.

The vast majority of us, going down to lower middle and upper poor class, get in our reliable cars and drive paved roads to a stable job.  We work in safe environments, and if they are not safe, it can be resolved with a phone call or two.  We work our shift and drive our reliable car on paved roads back to our weather tight home.  We might stop by a well stocked grocery store to pick up some affordable food.  We walk into those weather tight homes, turn on the tv, take a leak and flush the toilet with running water, and have a nice dinner.  Over dinner we discuss how bad our lives are and we need to improve them.  We decide to finance our way out of this hard life.  We open monthly subscriptions to various services, we finance a nicer reliable car, and upgrade to a bigger weather tight house, we pay someone to mow the nice lawn.  We eat out because our jobs are too stressful to worry about cooking, we watch tv instead of interacting with our neighbors, we build 6' wooden fences to keep people out instead of getting to know who lives next door, then we drink or other such indulgences because we are fighting loneliness and stress from jobs and stress.   

I think Pete's original message is for us to take a step back and analyze our situation.  We are social beings.  Why are we actively configuring our lives to remove the social aspect?  Why are we trying to outdo our neighbors instead of getting to know them?  We are also physical beings.  Why are we sitting in an office chair in order to make more money to pay someone to do our physical things that we are perfectly capable of?  Why drive a 2 ton vehicle 1.5 mile to the store when we can walk it in half an hour or cycle it in 4 minutes?  What will your kids have better memories of, the well made movies 3 times a week, or the same hours of your poorly played ukulele and singing?

We all know the guy who works 60+ hours a week to afford the $50k truck that pulls the $40k boat to the lake on the weekend, and always seems stressed out.  We also know the guy who drive a reasonable used car, no boat, but has a good relationship with his friends and neighbors.  Who do you want to be, and who do you want to spend your time with?
Thanks for posting this. I think this is a concept most of us understand by now (at least in this particular thread) but it's worth repeating often; for those who haven't thought about it and as a reminder for those who have. Sometimes people say his advice is for high earners but I think it applies to just about every person living in a developed country regardless of whether you want to be retired or not.

And I like that first paragraph. As a society we've come to believe that only being able to afford the necessities qualifies as being poor. Our discontent is no longer a matter of having the necessities but of being bored with them.

NeonPegasus

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #699 on: October 19, 2017, 09:56:43 AM »
This thread has been popping into my head a lot over the last few weeks. While I tend to fall more in the category of "it's only money" and "you only live once" (though I'm no spendthrift by any means), my family has been cleaning out my FIL's house in preparation for moving in with him next year.

He has lived in the same 5 bedroom house for the last 40 years. He didn't own a pickup truck most of his adult life and had a large dose of cheapness so he wasn't one to want to pay to take things to the landfill. Throw in some Depression era hoarding tendencies, an unwillingness to deal with his own parents' stuff when they died and a large house with a lot of places you can store things and you end up where we are now. My husband and our employee worked for several days building a trash pile, taking two full truckloads to the landfill in the meantime. Then I helped my FIL find someone to haul off the '33 Buick that he'd purchased in '61 to work on as a hobby. Then we had a 21 yard rolloff delivered. Between DH, employee, me and our 3 daughters, we had the rolloff filled in 5ish hours. We estimate there is at least another 1-2 dumpsters worth of stuff left to be tossed. And this is stuff that couldn't be given to Goodwill. We've delivered truckloads of stuff there, including so many glassware sets, plated silver items and furniture. Not to mention another carload of stuff that I delivered to my brother, a drama teacher, for use in plays.

It was sobering, to say the least.

The experience has shifted my thinking to "if I buy this now, will it end up in the landfill?" "Can I use it all up?" "Do I need more stuff?" "Can I give this away to someone else while it still has useful life?" There were so many things that went into the aforementioned dumpster that might have been useful to someone had they only been given away sooner rather than stuffed in a crawlspace to mildew and rot. And this all came from the house of a pretty frugal man. I can't imagine what the average American home of the same size wastes over the same time period ...