Author Topic: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?  (Read 48735 times)

PizzaSteve

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #650 on: October 07, 2017, 09:12:08 AM »
Of course I think high earners should be welcome here, but it just feels like there's almost not a place for average or lower earning MMM people. There also seems to be a real lack of perspective regarding wealth and income, which makes a lot of conversations unproductive. I always loved how MMM was about being positive and making yourself better and stronger no matter the circumstances, but some of these posts have people saying things like "we're not even that high earning, we only make about $150k a year combined!" It's like, newsflash: you are in the top 3% of the United States. And no, living in a HCOL area doesn't completely erase that, because low income people also live in HCOL areas.

I think this also skews people's ideas of spending because most people here just use savings percentages in casual conversations. It's like, yeah 50% sounds great, but if you're making a huge salary it's really not that impressive or even frugal. So there's this idea floating around here now that being frugal can totally include new cars, remodeling projects, tons of travel, expensive appliances, fancy gyms, spas, and basically a bunch of other trappings of wealth. Just because you can technically afford those things and still save money doesn't make them prudent choices, and it doesn't make the saver someone who really buys into (pardon the pun) a lot of what first attracted me to MMM, which is the philosophy.

And, scene.
Yes, yes, 100% yes.  People will claim that ~100k isn't "that much" and it makes me do a double take every time.  GF and I combined make a bit above my area's household median, which is more like $60k, and it still feels to me like we make silly amounts of money.  It's all about perspective.
Not to apologize for the spendy high earners, but i see you are 26 and i think some of this is an age thing.  At 26, it is hard to really contextualize the application of mustacian principles and what you end up with at 50.

Most of these folks have worked hard to grow their stash and often the income is coming from both decades of good career development choices and investing wisely.  Even MMM is in that income range now due to his blog, the markets, etc. 

The challenge is how to live wisely and low impact even when your strategies end up accumulating surplus wealth.  The forum dialog can help, though not every thread will be for everyone.  We can be inclusive and respectful, and avoid annoying phrases, i agree.  But at the same time, we should not demonize people for their success at saving and investing either.  No one should reject a pay raise, for example.  No one should begrudge a mustacian who gained 10% growth of their stash.  If a side hustle is a huge success and they are not needing to spend down their stash at 4%, i am happy for a forum member.

Anyway, it is a tough issue to deal with that perhaps 20 somethings cant resonate with...i get it.  Hang in there.  With good support and effort, i bet you will be able to achieve your dreams too.

A good perspective is quoted below.

As one of those high earners, I do understand this, both on the forums and in real life conversations.  I believe I am very cognizant of that and try hard to make sure that I do not make statements of "it's not that much" about either income or expenses.  In case studies and such with those high earners (the $800,000 debt one that was popular lately is one) I point out how one should not justify any expense as "but it's only X% of my take home pay" versus do you even need it, but yes there has been a tendency by many to be more lenient on this.  I think that's a big part of what started this thread to begin with.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 05:39:18 PM by PizzaSteve »
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rdaneel0

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #651 on: October 07, 2017, 10:26:21 AM »
Not to apologize for the spendy hugh earners, but i see you are 26 and i think some of this is an age thing.  At 26, it is hard to really contextualize the application of mustacian principles and what you end up with at 50.

Most of these folks have worked hard to grow their stash and often the income is coming from both decades of good career development choices and investing wisely.  Even MMM is in that income range now due to his blog, the markets, etc. 

The challenge is how to live wisely and low impact even when your strategies end up accumulating surplus wealth.  The forum dialog can help, though not every thread will be for everyone.  We can be inclusive and respectful, and avoid annoying phrases, i agree.  But at the same time, we should not demonize people for their success at saving and investing either.  No one should reject a pay raise, for example.  No one should begrudge a mustacian who gained 10% growth of their stash.  If a side hustle is a huge success and they are not needing to spend down their stash at 4%, i am happy for a forum member.

Anyway, it is a tough issue to deal with that perhaps 20 somethings cant resonate with...i get it.  Hang in there.  With good support and effort, i bet you will be able to achieve your dreams too.


I don't think it's just an age thing (I'm early 30s, fyi). There are lots of younger and older super high income people here and in real life. I know lots of couples who hit the $150k and up mark in their 20s.

I know your response wasn't directly to me, but I don't think ketchup or I were demonizing people for their success. I'm always psyched to read about people doing amazing things, and it was largely high earners who helped me when I started here and was asking REALLY basic questions (like, what's an IRA?) I mean, those were some patient people! I love that this community gives me access to people who are farther along and smarter than I am. I don't think the issue is a youthful jealousy thing, like, "there are too many evil high earners here!", it's "there are a lot of totally unaware high earners who don't even realize they're high earners or high spenders, so conversations are getting weird".

I mean, MMM was a high earner, and when I started reading here I was 22 and had about -$2,000 to my name and a minimum wage job, and he was already retired, so I have zero problem taking advice from higher earners who are older and more accomplished. If you make smart decisions you should be better off at 40 than at 20, I think that's part of why we're all here! At the same time, I think it's good to stay grounded in why we have success. It simply isn't possible for all people to amass $500k (or whatever) after just a few years of working, and that's ok. Living an optimized life still works for lower earners, it just isn't quite as fast or dramatic.

I honestly consider myself to be a pretty high earner. I'm now netting $75k (two person family), which feels like a lot to me. I never want to forget about how I made things work on $7.50 an hour or take our income for granted. I want to be grateful and realize that while, yes, DH and I have worked very hard, we've also been extremely fortunate. Especially when so many people in the country and world are struggling, I think it's vital for those of us with resources to realize that we have them not only because we are motivated and hard working, but also because we are fortunate, fortunate to be smart, or able bodied, or white, or living in a certain area of the world, or given education, or with supportive spouses, etc.

Just my two cents, I don't think this particular issue is an inability for young people to contextualize how finances change through different stages of life. I'm a big fan of many of the high earners here, but there has definitely been an influx of a different type of high earner and it has changed the conversations a bit. All in all it's no huge tragedy, I've gotten so much from this community and will always be grateful to the people here. I'll continue to stick around, especially in the journals, I just wonder if the overall attitude shift will scare away and discourage newcomers who are lower earners, which would be a shame. This place saved my financial life.
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gerardc

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #652 on: October 07, 2017, 01:02:37 PM »

Why not? If X% is small enough, it does become negligible. If you spend 18% of your take home pay, and increase it to 22% (yes, these are my actual numbers), why would it matter? You're FIRing in <3 years anyway, so adding 2.5 weeks of work per year isn't much. You need to understand the reality of high-earners. They don't have time to be frugal and waste time savings pennies. They can solve a problem by throwing money at it and FIRing 1 hour later.

Don't get me wrong, I'm able to be VERY frugal if I put my mind to it, but that shit takes time and energy, sometimes. It's fun, and I may do that after FIRE, but for now it makes so much more sense to focus on channelling the gravy train while it's there.

The point of this MMM philosophy is that you're aware of the time you trade for money, aka Your Money or Your Life, i.e. you don't want to spend $5k on a toy if it takes your 6 months of drudgery to save that amount. BUT you do want to spend $5k to eliminate a major 6-month long inconvenience if it takes you 2 weeks to save that. Same philosphy, different application from low earner to high earner.

It may be that a high salary makes you somewhat complacent, I'm not sure... but then again, excess always does.

shelivesthedream made some good points about the philosophy.
I'd add that its your response is merely an excuse wrapped up in flawed logic.  Its purpose is, to be blunt, self-justification, one of the most powerful mental forces we have, and a dangerous one at that.  I sometimes refer to this kind of justification as the "so called 'plight' of the high earner".   There's also a non-trivial amount of financial elitism buried in there, that cost-efficiency is something for 'poor' people but is somehow beneath us wealthy folks. We delude ourselves into thinking a purchase is such a small portion of our income its negligible, or that our time is so valuable we can't be bothered to lose a few hours doing something ourselves vs. contracting it out. The former isn't true because all money has an absolute and cumulative value (see the 'latte effect' or buying lunches effect).  The latter makes assumptions that we are already 100% efficient, that we'd use any time save to work more (kind of against the grain of this forum) and that we gain nothing from undertaking these tasks ourselves.

Finally, I'll just add that if you think this forum is about extreme frugality, you're missing the point and there's a difference between being frugal and cheap.

Look, my credit card expenses (everything but rent) average $600/month in a very HCOL area. I'm talking things like going out and buying a $10 drink once in a while so that you can see your friends without pestering them with "frugal options", or paying $99 to have IKEA deliver your minimalist furniture instead of renting a truck for $50 and wasting half of your day. You need to look at the big picture. Just because some have a tendency to overspend and thus need to remind themselves to spend less every second of their life, doesn't mean that some people like myself can't allow themselves some conveniences so they don't burn themselves out to the ground. See? We need a balance between spending and saving, and more saving isn't always the best option; even MMM is pretty lenient in some areas.

So, like I said, it depends on the value of X. If X is small enough and you earn high enough, I'd say go for it, at least for people like me. If you're a weak non-badass and you need to constantly kick yourself in the butt not to overspend then fine, "restrict yourself", but I'm willing to bet they indulge in the same kind of conveniences I describe, they just don't think twice about it because it's "necessary".

It reminds me of the Weight Watchers community, where everyone is overweight and encourages each other, but they're still pretty much all out of shape. Meanwhile in a Crossfit gym, they work hard, get results and even talk about the dangers of overtraining. Why? because they actually work hard, so it's a real danger, and working less hard sometimes is necessary. But the weight watchers overweight guys don't see that and think "no, you ALWAYS need to do more" which just reflects the limited/flawed view you get when you suck.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2017, 01:05:37 PM by gerardc »

nereo

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #653 on: October 07, 2017, 01:53:23 PM »
shelivesthedream made some good points about the philosophy.
I'd add that its your response is merely an excuse wrapped up in flawed logic.  Its purpose is, to be blunt, self-justification, one of the most powerful mental forces we have, and a dangerous one at that.  I sometimes refer to this kind of justification as the "so called 'plight' of the high earner".   There's also a non-trivial amount of financial elitism buried in there, that cost-efficiency is something for 'poor' people but is somehow beneath us wealthy folks. We delude ourselves into thinking a purchase is such a small portion of our income its negligible, or that our time is so valuable we can't be bothered to lose a few hours doing something ourselves vs. contracting it out. The former isn't true because all money has an absolute and cumulative value (see the 'latte effect' or buying lunches effect).  The latter makes assumptions that we are already 100% efficient, that we'd use any time save to work more (kind of against the grain of this forum) and that we gain nothing from undertaking these tasks ourselves.

Finally, I'll just add that if you think this forum is about extreme frugality, you're missing the point and there's a difference between being frugal and cheap.

Look, my credit card expenses (everything but rent) average $600/month in a very HCOL area. I'm talking things like going out and buying a $10 drink once in a while so that you can see your friends without pestering them with "frugal options", or paying $99 to have IKEA deliver your minimalist furniture instead of renting a truck for $50 and wasting half of your day. You need to look at the big picture. Just because some have a tendency to overspend and thus need to remind themselves to spend less every second of their life, doesn't mean that some people like myself can't allow themselves some conveniences so they don't burn themselves out to the ground. See? We need a balance between spending and saving, and more saving isn't always the best option; even MMM is pretty lenient in some areas.

So, like I said, it depends on the value of X. If X is small enough and you earn high enough, I'd say go for it, at least for people like me. If you're a weak non-badass and you need to constantly kick yourself in the butt not to overspend then fine, "restrict yourself", but I'm willing to bet they indulge in the same kind of conveniences I describe, they just don't think twice about it because it's "necessary".

It reminds me of the Weight Watchers community, where everyone is overweight and encourages each other, but they're still pretty much all out of shape. Meanwhile in a Crossfit gym, they work hard, get results and even talk about the dangers of overtraining. Why? because they actually work hard, so it's a real danger, and working less hard sometimes is necessary. But the weight watchers overweight guys don't see that and think "no, you ALWAYS need to do more" which just reflects the limited/flawed view you get when you suck.

There were a few areas in your response where I was nodding along, until I got to the phrase: If X is small enough and you earn high enough, I'd say go for it, at least for people like me. To me that's exactly the wrong attitude to have towards money. If something is a stupid expense at $20 for your average $40k/year worker, it doesn't suddenly become a 'smart' thing to do just because you are earning $140k. To me that's exactly the messaging that marketing has been trying to convince us of; that an on-going monthly expense is affordable because it's such a small percentage of our take-home pay, or that we shouldn't think twice about $10 'luxuries' because they bring 'daily joy' to our lives.  If the latter is true that's all fine and good, but most of the time there are much better, healthier and cheaper solutions but we've been trained not to look.

I'm not trying to pick on you per se, but rather attack this belief that we should view what is a 'reasonable' expense based on the individual's income.  It's an almost impulsive reflex but I think it is dead wrong. Regarding your comment about 'allowing some conveniences so they don't burn themselves into the ground" - well again we've tied spending to happiness and justified it by thinking its such a small portion of takehome pay. 
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ender

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #654 on: October 07, 2017, 01:58:16 PM »
There's a difference in being frugal because you have to and because you can be.

gerardc

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #655 on: October 07, 2017, 02:14:38 PM »
shelivesthedream made some good points about the philosophy.
I'd add that its your response is merely an excuse wrapped up in flawed logic.  Its purpose is, to be blunt, self-justification, one of the most powerful mental forces we have, and a dangerous one at that.  I sometimes refer to this kind of justification as the "so called 'plight' of the high earner".   There's also a non-trivial amount of financial elitism buried in there, that cost-efficiency is something for 'poor' people but is somehow beneath us wealthy folks. We delude ourselves into thinking a purchase is such a small portion of our income its negligible, or that our time is so valuable we can't be bothered to lose a few hours doing something ourselves vs. contracting it out. The former isn't true because all money has an absolute and cumulative value (see the 'latte effect' or buying lunches effect).  The latter makes assumptions that we are already 100% efficient, that we'd use any time save to work more (kind of against the grain of this forum) and that we gain nothing from undertaking these tasks ourselves.

Finally, I'll just add that if you think this forum is about extreme frugality, you're missing the point and there's a difference between being frugal and cheap.

Look, my credit card expenses (everything but rent) average $600/month in a very HCOL area. I'm talking things like going out and buying a $10 drink once in a while so that you can see your friends without pestering them with "frugal options", or paying $99 to have IKEA deliver your minimalist furniture instead of renting a truck for $50 and wasting half of your day. You need to look at the big picture. Just because some have a tendency to overspend and thus need to remind themselves to spend less every second of their life, doesn't mean that some people like myself can't allow themselves some conveniences so they don't burn themselves out to the ground. See? We need a balance between spending and saving, and more saving isn't always the best option; even MMM is pretty lenient in some areas.

So, like I said, it depends on the value of X. If X is small enough and you earn high enough, I'd say go for it, at least for people like me. If you're a weak non-badass and you need to constantly kick yourself in the butt not to overspend then fine, "restrict yourself", but I'm willing to bet they indulge in the same kind of conveniences I describe, they just don't think twice about it because it's "necessary".

It reminds me of the Weight Watchers community, where everyone is overweight and encourages each other, but they're still pretty much all out of shape. Meanwhile in a Crossfit gym, they work hard, get results and even talk about the dangers of overtraining. Why? because they actually work hard, so it's a real danger, and working less hard sometimes is necessary. But the weight watchers overweight guys don't see that and think "no, you ALWAYS need to do more" which just reflects the limited/flawed view you get when you suck.

There were a few areas in your response where I was nodding along, until I got to the phrase: If X is small enough and you earn high enough, I'd say go for it, at least for people like me. To me that's exactly the wrong attitude to have towards money. If something is a stupid expense at $20 for your average $40k/year worker, it doesn't suddenly become a 'smart' thing to do just because you are earning $140k. To me that's exactly the messaging that marketing has been trying to convince us of; that an on-going monthly expense is affordable because it's such a small percentage of our take-home pay, or that we shouldn't think twice about $10 'luxuries' because they bring 'daily joy' to our lives.  If the latter is true that's all fine and good, but most of the time there are much better, healthier and cheaper solutions but we've been trained not to look.

I'm not trying to pick on you per se, but rather attack this belief that we should view what is a 'reasonable' expense based on the individual's income.  It's an almost impulsive reflex but I think it is dead wrong. Regarding your comment about 'allowing some conveniences so they don't burn themselves into the ground" - well again we've tied spending to happiness and justified it by thinking its such a small portion of takehome pay.

I mostly agree with you, I think we agree with each other on the specific examples, just the wording and principles sound different.

When I say "If X is high enough and you earn high enough, go for it", it's understood that you also need the thing, there are no cheaper options, etc. With a low income you were basically on the fence buying it, you decided not to; with a high income, it may shift the decision barrier a little bit, and you'd end up buying it because, for example, saving $50 would drain you and you'd be tired at work, which would put you at risk, etc. High income doesn't change much drastically, it may increase your expenses by a few percents, but the basic lifestyle is roughly the same. You'll just spend more e.g. on holidays because you don't have many vacation days and you need to make the most of Thanksgiving weekend, which makes the flights more expensive... things like that. It doesn't give you permission to buy lattes to feel better, that's not what I'm talking about at all.

ender

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #656 on: October 07, 2017, 02:16:22 PM »
When I say "If X is high enough and you earn high enough, go for it", it's understood that you also need the thing, there are no cheaper options, etc.

I don't think people ever mean that phrase in the "you need the thing" but more in the "yeah, you want the thing and can afford it" manner on this forum.

CanuckExpat

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #657 on: October 07, 2017, 02:55:32 PM »
The median salary for a software engineer in Canada is 70k a year.  If you're making 98k or over you're in the 90th percentile of software engineers.
...
The vast majority of software engineers must be trying to get paid less?

Different sources find different salary ranges for software engineers, but there is a big discrepancy geographically, especially whether you live in the US or not.
There is a good article, that I can't find now, which uses some consolidated data to show even higher average US software engineer salaries than usually reported. They go on to argue there is an inefficiency in the market due to US immigration issues (which presumably hurts tech companies and the population as a whole, maybe helps some developers): a software engineer in Pittsburgh can always threaten to move to Silicon Valley to get a higher wage, which in turn drives up wages in Pittsburgh (or you can work for Google in Pittsburgh), a developer in London can't make the same threat credibly, which keeps their wages depressed by international (US) standards.

Hired also has a decent salary survey, based on actual job offers: https://hired.com/state-of-salaries-2017



I wouldn't go as far as the original comment, but I will say that it's likely that in many US markets, and industries, it is very possible for most competent developers, who can interview well, and who have the right credentials or experience to make $100k barring circumstances (don't work for non-profits, certain other industries). I wanted to add compotent, but based on my limited experience interviewing, competent assumes a lot.

Don't ask me though, I've been unemployed for a year :)
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wenchsenior

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #658 on: October 07, 2017, 05:08:03 PM »
...eat a bag of dicks..

Brilliant idiom :)

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Laura33

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #659 on: October 08, 2017, 07:47:26 AM »
As one of the higher-earning and spendier members, I would please, please ask the longstanding hard-core members to continue to weigh in and call bullshit when you see it.  I am surrounded by a world that tells me I need to spend more and do less, to seek comfort and laziness and bling and escapist fun above all else.  Including my own family.  This is the only place in my life that reminds me that I don't actually have to do any of that to be happy, and that in fact giving in to the laziness of Papa Johns and my recliner buys short-term happiness but gets in the way of a long-term happy and fulfilled life. 

I am never going to aspire to living MMM's life; that's not me, and it wouldn't make me happy.  But I can absolutely do better optimizing the money that I throw away on meaningless crap.  An echo chamber of "of course you can afford it" isn't helpful, because I am fortunate to be able to afford a shit-ton of useless stuff that I don't need.  I need you guys to keep me honest on that and make me take a hard look at choices I tend to take for granted.

Tl;dr:  My personal thanks to all of the hard-asses here.  Your time and insight is tremendously important -- even when I ultimately choose something different.
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AccidentialMustache

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #660 on: October 08, 2017, 11:52:31 AM »
yeah, erm.   Lots of ego in this note.   DH works programming for a small manufacturer in industrial sensors.  Makes $60k.   Not saying that he couldn't make more (15 years ago, he topped $125k/yr, which would be more today), just that there are reasons beyond the facile list that you put here.  Where you live being one of them.  Having a job for 35 hours a week that you can bike to, that lets you buy and run 3D printers as an experiment in R&D is another.   The primary one really is that his industry is not programming for office software, but industrial manufacturing, at a small business locally.

Yeah that came across a little aggressive. Sorry. I still stand by the basic math and assertion, though. 60k average starting salary was ~15 years ago. So if you'll give me 3% inflation just like for the 4% rule, 60k * 1.03^15 = 93.5k. For a large enough sample, close to 50% of today's graduating class should be making over 100k, if not now, then very very soon (2 years). Looks like that 3% assumption isn't too far off based on current numbers: https://cs.illinois.edu/about-us/statistics

You can say, "oh that's a top school" and sure that's true, but there's a lot of top schools graduating very large CS classes. You're going to have to work to pull that number down.

Gondolin

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #661 on: October 09, 2017, 01:19:18 PM »
Quote
I'm not trying to pick on you per se, but rather attack this belief that we should view what is a 'reasonable' expense based on the individual's income.  It's an almost impulsive reflex but I think it is dead wrong.

Preach.

My current spend is too high. Not because I can't afford it but, because it's still badly inefficient in several categories.

In this forum TODAY sometime defended having a cleaner on the grounds that they "aren't good at it" and then, defended eating out a lot on the grounds that they "are an emotional eater" and thus can only relieve stress by overpaying for takeout.
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elaine amj

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #662 on: October 10, 2017, 09:08:44 AM »
As one of the higher-earning and spendier members, I would please, please ask the longstanding hard-core members to continue to weigh in and call bullshit when you see it.  I am surrounded by a world that tells me I need to spend more and do less, to seek comfort and laziness and bling and escapist fun above all else.  Including my own family.  This is the only place in my life that reminds me that I don't actually have to do any of that to be happy, and that in fact giving in to the laziness of Papa Johns and my recliner buys short-term happiness but gets in the way of a long-term happy and fulfilled life. 

I am never going to aspire to living MMM's life; that's not me, and it wouldn't make me happy.  But I can absolutely do better optimizing the money that I throw away on meaningless crap.  An echo chamber of "of course you can afford it" isn't helpful, because I am fortunate to be able to afford a shit-ton of useless stuff that I don't need.  I need you guys to keep me honest on that and make me take a hard look at choices I tend to take for granted.

Tl;dr:  My personal thanks to all of the hard-asses here.  Your time and insight is tremendously important -- even when I ultimately choose something different.

I totally agree. I KNOW I'm not as efficient as I could be and I love getting challenged to be better at it.

And when I make choices and get facepunched for it here - I actually think that is a good thing. It forces me to take a step back, re-evaluate my choice and then purposefully decide whether to proceed or not. And if I willingly choose to do it, I'm then secure enough in my decision not to "feel bad" because someone else doesn't agree with my choices. And if I choose to spend on something frivolously, it's also nice to KNOW that it is frivolous and make a purposeful choice to do it anyway.

I've never been hardcore at this and am unlikely to get to the low spending I see some other members achieve. But it's sad when the more frugal and minimalistic Mustachians on here get told they aren't "enjoying life" because they are too thrifty. I still remember the days when members would challenge each other to get their home energy use as low as possible and celebrated when pennies were saved.

Those were also the days when people wouldn't get away with being a "complainypants" (this was an eyeopening concept to me). There are so many ways in which we make excuses for spending on stuff. It's sooo easy to say "But...XYZ". Just look at all those comments on articles about MMM/other early retirees about how they were "special" and the average Joe can never do what they did. I loved being here where people talked about how they COULD do better and brainstormed innovative solutions or gave each other a kick in the butt to JUST DO IT.

This does not involve shaming other forum members. People should always be free to make their own decisions on spending and saving. Still, as a community, it's not a bad idea to stop and take a look at what we're trying to achieve here together.  But why do we all gather here? MMM promotes his blog as "Financial Freedom Through Badassity". What do we hope to gain together? For me, the point is to be challenged to see the world differently. To see my spending differently.

Goldielocks

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #663 on: October 10, 2017, 04:26:06 PM »
yeah, erm.   Lots of ego in this note.   DH works programming for a small manufacturer in industrial sensors.  Makes $60k.   Not saying that he couldn't make more (15 years ago, he topped $125k/yr, which would be more today), just that there are reasons beyond the facile list that you put here.  Where you live being one of them.  Having a job for 35 hours a week that you can bike to, that lets you buy and run 3D printers as an experiment in R&D is another.   The primary one really is that his industry is not programming for office software, but industrial manufacturing, at a small business locally.

Yeah that came across a little aggressive. Sorry. I still stand by the basic math and assertion, though. 60k average starting salary was ~15 years ago. So if you'll give me 3% inflation just like for the 4% rule, 60k * 1.03^15 = 93.5k. For a large enough sample, close to 50% of today's graduating class should be making over 100k, if not now, then very very soon (2 years). Looks like that 3% assumption isn't too far off based on current numbers: https://cs.illinois.edu/about-us/statistics

You can say, "oh that's a top school" and sure that's true, but there's a lot of top schools graduating very large CS classes. You're going to have to work to pull that number down.

I see where you are going with this, but your CPI is stated higher than the actual 1-2% that it has been for the past 15 years.
Our area is currently 128 index (2017) when the 2002 index was 100.
So $60k x 1.28 = $76.8k, not $100k

But programmers in 2002 locally did not start at $60k... that was the starting salary here in about 2009 (same as the engineering starting salary if you had 1 year work experience through another job or co-ops).

So it looks more like $52k x 1.28 = $66.5k  is the 2017 starting salary.   It is all about local markets....  Now it makes the $90k average across Canada that the other poster mentioned look realistic, and your assertion that "you are going to have to work to pull [$100k avg] down" simply is tunnel visioned to your local market.

I mean, there is a reason that Microsoft, Intel, Google and Amazon are all coming to Canada for secondary offices, and it is not just about the exchange rate and taxation splitting.

AccidentialMustache

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #664 on: October 10, 2017, 07:31:12 PM »
92.5k is the *average* starting salary for the UIUC CS class who graduated in the spring of 2016. Hit the link if you don't believe me. They graduate a bit over 300 students a year. That's not a local market, that's the average of the market where those graduates went -- and you're right, a lot of that market is going to be NYC/SF/Seattle/Portland/Silicon Valley and similar... but a lot won't go that route either, choosing to work somewhere less expensive, or choosing a lower stress path.

Goldielocks

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #665 on: October 10, 2017, 08:33:47 PM »
92.5k is the *average* starting salary for the UIUC CS class who graduated in the spring of 2016. Hit the link if you don't believe me. They graduate a bit over 300 students a year. That's not a local market, that's the average of the market where those graduates went -- and you're right, a lot of that market is going to be NYC/SF/Seattle/Portland/Silicon Valley and similar... but a lot won't go that route either, choosing to work somewhere less expensive, or choosing a lower stress path.

Of course I believe you... for UIUC and mega urban markets of NY, Seattle, and Silicon Valley...... my point is that salaries are very much based on local market conditions and the specific industry one is programming for.  Heck, a friend of mine programs for a firm in NY from his home office in Canada... he has done this specialized financial markets programming and support for over 20 years now, and I think he makes about $85k CAD, despite his NJ peers that go into an office making well over $120kUS, and the NYC based ones  for the same company make even more.  Your tone and implication that "all software programmers should be making over $100k per year or they suck at their career"  (paraphrased, obviously you were not this blunt) is what has me posting these responses.



Do you not get the idea that every career's salary is equally driven by local market conditions,  as much sometimes as

gerardc

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #666 on: October 10, 2017, 08:40:20 PM »
92.5k is the *average* starting salary for the UIUC CS class who graduated in the spring of 2016. Hit the link if you don't believe me. They graduate a bit over 300 students a year. That's not a local market, that's the average of the market where those graduates went -- and you're right, a lot of that market is going to be NYC/SF/Seattle/Portland/Silicon Valley and similar... but a lot won't go that route either, choosing to work somewhere less expensive, or choosing a lower stress path.

Of course I believe you... for UIUC and mega urban markets of NY, Seattle, and Silicon Valley...... my point is that salaries are very much based on local market conditions and the specific industry one is programming for.  Heck, a friend of mine programs for a firm in NY from his home office in Canada... he has done this specialized financial markets programming and support for over 20 years now, and I think he makes about $85k CAD, despite his NJ peers that go into an office making well over $120kUS, and the NYC based ones  for the same company make even more.  Your tone and implication that "all software programmers should be making over $100k per year or they suck at their career"  (paraphrased, obviously you were not this blunt) is what has me posting these responses.


Do you not get the idea that every career's salary is equally driven by local market conditions,  as much sometimes as

They can just move then? The point is any software engineer can make $100k if they try, and if they don't suck.

Funny how buying a $5 latte is "complainypants", but refusing to move to grow your salary 2X is "totally justified, because you deserve it", or because your family can't stop whining?

Don't be penny wise and pound foolish.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 08:42:18 PM by gerardc »

Goldielocks

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #667 on: October 10, 2017, 09:11:27 PM »

.. any software engineer can make $100k if they try, and if they don't suck.

Funny how buying a $5 latte is "complainypants", but refusing to move to grow your salary 2X is "totally justified, because you deserve it", or because your family can't stop whining?

Don't be penny wise and pound foolish.

!?!!

For the record I am not complaining about income differentials by region at all. Certainly not.  It is a fact of life and I am just pointing that out to you and the Accident.  But to claim that the only reason programmers who don't make $100k is because they suck..?!!  Wow.

......
Not many people would be called "complainypants" for hesitating about moving to another country, honestly, that immigration process is two steps forward, 4.5 steps back until all the PR status processing is complete, which puts your life on hold for over 5 years.

gerardc

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #668 on: October 10, 2017, 09:21:46 PM »
But to claim that the only reason programmers who don't make $100k is because they suck..?!!  Wow.

Either you're being disingenuous or you can't read. Which is it?

PoutineLover

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #669 on: October 10, 2017, 09:47:47 PM »
92.5k is the *average* starting salary for the UIUC CS class who graduated in the spring of 2016. Hit the link if you don't believe me. They graduate a bit over 300 students a year. That's not a local market, that's the average of the market where those graduates went -- and you're right, a lot of that market is going to be NYC/SF/Seattle/Portland/Silicon Valley and similar... but a lot won't go that route either, choosing to work somewhere less expensive, or choosing a lower stress path.

Of course I believe you... for UIUC and mega urban markets of NY, Seattle, and Silicon Valley...... my point is that salaries are very much based on local market conditions and the specific industry one is programming for.  Heck, a friend of mine programs for a firm in NY from his home office in Canada... he has done this specialized financial markets programming and support for over 20 years now, and I think he makes about $85k CAD, despite his NJ peers that go into an office making well over $120kUS, and the NYC based ones  for the same company make even more.  Your tone and implication that "all software programmers should be making over $100k per year or they suck at their career"  (paraphrased, obviously you were not this blunt) is what has me posting these responses.


Do you not get the idea that every career's salary is equally driven by local market conditions,  as much sometimes as

They can just move then? The point is any software engineer can make $100k if they try, and if they don't suck.

Funny how buying a $5 latte is "complainypants", but refusing to move to grow your salary 2X is "totally justified, because you deserve it", or because your family can't stop whining?

Don't be penny wise and pound foolish.
There are many reasons not to move just for a higher salary. Some people want to stay near their families, they have bigger support network in their current location, the cost of living won't make the move worth it, they have a spouse with a career that is not so easily transferable.. It's not complainypants to evaluate the tradeoffs and decide that the lower salary is worth it for the other benefits.

dragoncar

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #670 on: October 11, 2017, 12:47:30 AM »
But to claim that the only reason programmers who don't make $100k is because they suck..?!!  Wow.

Either you're being disingenuous or you can't read. Which is it?

If you try to write better, maybe more people will understand what you are trying to say.  Unless you suck at writing, that is.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #671 on: October 11, 2017, 02:14:42 AM »
Forum rule 1.

farfromfire

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #672 on: October 11, 2017, 02:36:23 AM »
92.5k is the *average* starting salary for the UIUC CS class who graduated in the spring of 2016. Hit the link if you don't believe me. They graduate a bit over 300 students a year. That's not a local market, that's the average of the market where those graduates went -- and you're right, a lot of that market is going to be NYC/SF/Seattle/Portland/Silicon Valley and similar... but a lot won't go that route either, choosing to work somewhere less expensive, or choosing a lower stress path.

Of course I believe you... for UIUC and mega urban markets of NY, Seattle, and Silicon Valley...... my point is that salaries are very much based on local market conditions and the specific industry one is programming for.  Heck, a friend of mine programs for a firm in NY from his home office in Canada... he has done this specialized financial markets programming and support for over 20 years now, and I think he makes about $85k CAD, despite his NJ peers that go into an office making well over $120kUS, and the NYC based ones  for the same company make even more.  Your tone and implication that "all software programmers should be making over $100k per year or they suck at their career"  (paraphrased, obviously you were not this blunt) is what has me posting these responses.


Do you not get the idea that every career's salary is equally driven by local market conditions,  as much sometimes as

They can just move then? The point is any software engineer can make $100k if they try, and if they don't suck.

Funny how buying a $5 latte is "complainypants", but refusing to move to grow your salary 2X is "totally justified, because you deserve it", or because your family can't stop whining?

Don't be penny wise and pound foolish.
From the way you interact with people, it's easy to see that you would be moving alone, which is pretty easy with low downside. Moving as a family? very much less so.

MOD NOTE: Don't be rude, please.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 09:19:26 AM by arebelspy »

shelivesthedream

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #673 on: October 11, 2017, 04:48:40 AM »
I do find the people seeking permission to be antimustachian a bit weird. Sure, ask for advice, but some of them really seem to need permission and then get upset when they don't get it.

ketchup

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #674 on: October 11, 2017, 07:51:10 AM »
I do find the people seeking permission to be antimustachian a bit weird. Sure, ask for advice, but some of them really seem to need permission and then get upset when they don't get it.
My favorite is:
OP: Please tell me why this crazy thing doesn't make sense, I can't figure out how it would be a bad idea.
Answer from multiple people: Yes, it's crazy and doesn't make any sense because X, Y, and Z.  You could do A, B, or C instead.
OP: But I wanna!

Paraphrased but that's how it comes off.  If you want to buy something outrageous, well, you're an adult and you don't need to ask anyone's permission to make mistakes.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #675 on: October 11, 2017, 08:11:55 AM »
I know! I often come on to ask for information/advice about things I don't end up doing, but then I put on my big girl pants and decide I don't have the time or energy or whatever and move on with my life. I just want to make an informed decision, not to justify doing things that no reason on Earth would stop me doing.

Barbaebigode

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #676 on: October 11, 2017, 08:49:49 AM »
I do find the people seeking permission to be antimustachian a bit weird. Sure, ask for advice, but some of them really seem to need permission and then get upset when they don't get it.
My favorite is:
OP: Please tell me why this crazy thing doesn't make sense, I can't figure out how it would be a bad idea.
Answer from multiple people: Yes, it's crazy and doesn't make any sense because X, Y, and Z.  You could do A, B, or C instead.
Answer from multiple people 2: Oh, we have two and it's totally worth it!
OP: But I wanna!

Paraphrased but that's how it comes off.  If you want to buy something outrageous, well, you're an adult and you don't need to ask anyone's permission to make mistakes.

Fixed that for you.

ketchup

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #677 on: October 11, 2017, 09:04:31 AM »
I do find the people seeking permission to be antimustachian a bit weird. Sure, ask for advice, but some of them really seem to need permission and then get upset when they don't get it.
My favorite is:
OP: Please tell me why this crazy thing doesn't make sense, I can't figure out how it would be a bad idea.
Answer from multiple people: Yes, it's crazy and doesn't make any sense because X, Y, and Z.  You could do A, B, or C instead.
Answer from multiple people 2: Oh, we have two and it's totally worth it!
OP: But I wanna!

Paraphrased but that's how it comes off.  If you want to buy something outrageous, well, you're an adult and you don't need to ask anyone's permission to make mistakes.

Fixed that for you.
GAH, you're right.  Fuck.

BlueMR2

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #678 on: October 11, 2017, 04:16:41 PM »
They can just move then? The point is any software engineer can make $100k if they try, and if they don't suck.

Funny how buying a $5 latte is "complainypants", but refusing to move to grow your salary 2X is "totally justified, because you deserve it", or because your family can't stop whining?

Don't be penny wise and pound foolish.

For sure.  Do all the math.  I've walked away from potential big salary increases because they also come along with much larger COL increases!  I only make half here as I could somewhere else, but even basic expenses in those other places would consume more than the excess...  I'd *lose* moving to a big city for those high paying jobs in my field!

happy

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #679 on: October 12, 2017, 12:58:07 AM »
I do find the people seeking permission to be antimustachian a bit weird. Sure, ask for advice, but some of them really seem to need permission and then get upset when they don't get it.

+1. I mean why do that?

None of us are perfect, and I for one, on occasion  engage in an activity/purchase thats not fully mustachian. I know that, and its a choice I make and take responsibility for. But I definitely wouldn't ask on the forum should I do/buy whatever.
Journalling at Happy Aussie Downshifter

Fire2025

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #680 on: October 13, 2017, 12:16:09 PM »
I do find the people seeking permission to be antimustachian a bit weird. Sure, ask for advice, but some of them really seem to need permission and then get upset when they don't get it.

+1. I mean why do that?

None of us are perfect, and I for one, on occasion  engage in an activity/purchase thats not fully mustachian. I know that, and its a choice I make and take responsibility for. But I definitely wouldn't ask on the forum should I do/buy whatever.

This is the part I find weirdest also, I do things that I know I shouldn't, but I would never come this group to get the "okay" for them.  That's what the rest of the world is for.  They will tell me I "deserve" and can "afford" a latte a day and a new car payment.  I'm here because, when my financial wonderlust sets in, I want a facepunch to get me back to earth.

boarder42

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #681 on: October 13, 2017, 01:23:50 PM »
I do find the people seeking permission to be antimustachian a bit weird. Sure, ask for advice, but some of them really seem to need permission and then get upset when they don't get it.

+1. I mean why do that?

None of us are perfect, and I for one, on occasion  engage in an activity/purchase thats not fully mustachian. I know that, and its a choice I make and take responsibility for. But I definitely wouldn't ask on the forum should I do/buy whatever.

This is the part I find weirdest also, I do things that I know I shouldn't, but I would never come this group to get the "okay" for them.  That's what the rest of the world is for.  They will tell me I "deserve" and can "afford" a latte a day and a new car payment.  I'm here because, when my financial wonderlust sets in, I want a facepunch to get me back to earth.

but you have to care about others feelings now ... its no longer cool to give face punches ... its cool to be offended.  regardless of what was said, if it can be construed as offensive people will immediately jump on it.  and face punches are by their very nature offensive... so as society goes so does the forum and you're now a bad guy for face punching and a good guy for supporting those 5 starbucks a week b/c YOLO, Enjoy your money now why are you saving for what may never come.

at its core the money saving retire early side of mustachianism is mathmatical and every decision can be put into a math equation.  purchases are emotional and most people cant set that aside and see numbers
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GuitarStv

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #682 on: October 13, 2017, 01:27:05 PM »
If we post a trigger warning before facepunching does that make it OK?

CanuckExpat

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #683 on: October 13, 2017, 02:02:50 PM »
If you do it right, eventually someone will call you condescending and unrealistic. It means you are doing something right.
The easiest way is usually to tell someone to ride a bike instead of their car
Hasn't happened in a while, I should post some more.
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elaine amj

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #684 on: October 13, 2017, 02:06:01 PM »
This is the part I find weirdest also, I do things that I know I shouldn't, but I would never come this group to get the "okay" for them.  That's what the rest of the world is for.  They will tell me I "deserve" and can "afford" a latte a day and a new car payment.  I'm here because, when my financial wonderlust sets in, I want a facepunch to get me back to earth.

Ditto. I come here FOR facepunches and to get a dose to reality. Otherwise, I can post on FB and have plenty of people tell me congratulate me for buying such and such.

That said, journals should be a safe zone unless facepunches are requested.

slappy

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #685 on: October 13, 2017, 02:09:51 PM »
If we post a trigger warning before facepunching does that make it OK?

I've often wondered this...at what point does the word trigger become a trigger? Like a Pavlovian trigger?

calimom

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #686 on: October 13, 2017, 02:31:56 PM »

[/quote]

Ditto. I come here FOR facepunches and to get a dose to reality. Otherwise, I can post on FB and have plenty of people tell me congratulate me for buying such and such.

That said, journals should be a safe zone unless facepunches are requested.
[/quote]

But doesn't it seem odd to have a journal on a forum that's devoted to financial independence and smarter living and then post things like: "I spent more than I made for the 17th month in a row! Silly me. Doh" or "I bought a ring from a mall jeweler for my loser boyfriend to pretend to give me and put it on 120 easy monthly payments. Now to plan my dream Disney wedding. We'll charge that too, of course."

There are great journals and people who really seem to live up to the tenets of this community, and others who seem to just be seeking attention and justification.

Canadian Ben

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #687 on: October 13, 2017, 02:46:34 PM »
In journals, you can be nicer, just point it out. In case studies, Attack!

elaine amj

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #688 on: October 13, 2017, 02:49:50 PM »
In journals, you can be nicer, just point it out. In case studies, Attack!

LOL - I like it!

CanuckExpat

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #689 on: October 13, 2017, 06:29:29 PM »
In case studies punch them in the face, in journals hold their hand, and then punch them in the face?
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FiveSigmas

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #690 on: October 13, 2017, 08:11:04 PM »
In case studies punch them in the face, in journals hold their hand, and then punch them in the face?


?

Paul der Krake

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #691 on: October 13, 2017, 08:12:02 PM »
There is no reason to feel bad about pushing people to be better, so long as you aren't a complete condescending dick while doing it.

FiveSigmas

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #692 on: October 13, 2017, 08:40:43 PM »
This thread reminds me of Nords's wisdom from back in 2013:

Quote
This forum is following the typical growth curve... from a relatively quiet meetup at a local park to a gigantic chaotic festival with a mosh pit, security guards, and an infirmary run by Wavy Gravy.  The tone's going to change because the crowd grows to resemble a greater slice of society's lower common denominator instead of a small group of like-minded yet radical-thinking individuals. 

It happened with Early-Retirement.org about 6-8 years ago and it happened with Bogleheads.org from the beginning (the Vanguard Diehards core that escaped Morningstar's implosion).  Those of you who grow weary of this forum will eventually splinter off to form your own new radical group, and so the cycle will continue.

Jacob Lund Fisker burned out after a few years.  How much longer can MMM keep up the refrain?  Hard to predict.  But someone else will always take up the torch.

I'm curious who's going to be this person. (Secretly, I'm hoping that Sol will be looking for a new project to occupy some of his free time, but I'm not holding my breath).

Like y'all, I do miss "the old days" of a few years ago. Without the threat of face-punches, I feel like I've gone a bit flabby myself.

lhamo

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #693 on: October 13, 2017, 09:49:05 PM »
Like y'all, I do miss "the old days" of a few years ago. Without the threat of face-punches, I feel like I've gone a bit flabby myself.

Subject yourself to a case study, my friend -- we'll whip you back into shape in no time!
Wherever you go, there you are

sol

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #694 on: October 13, 2017, 09:50:08 PM »
(Secretly, I'm hoping that Sol will be looking for a new project to occupy some of his free time, but I'm not holding my breath).

You're not the only person to express this thought, and I do like to write and I think I would enjoy writing a blog.  I intended to start one this summer, but then family relocations and a bunch of tenant turnover sucked up a lot of my free time on top of my 9-5 and three kids.

So I'll get around to it eventually.  You're all invited.  I'll start a thread soliciting ideas, when the time comes.

calimom

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #695 on: October 13, 2017, 11:13:41 PM »
(Secretly, I'm hoping that Sol will be looking for a new project to occupy some of his free time, but I'm not holding my breath).

You're not the only person to express this thought, and I do like to write and I think I would enjoy writing a blog.  I intended to start one this summer, but then family relocations and a bunch of tenant turnover sucked up a lot of my free time on top of my 9-5 and three kids.

So I'll get around to it eventually.  You're all invited.  I'll start a thread soliciting ideas, when the time comes.

Let's hope you do. Your writing and viewpoint are great. And when you do confess to driving your new leased Denali through the Starbucks to get Grande Mochacinos on your way to buy a Vitamix and Instapot on your maxed out 23% VISA card we'll just titter and say "oh Sol, you rascal". The wrath we'll save for a 25 year old  noob with a 75% savings rate in a Case Study who confesses to hiking  along a trail with his Friday night treat of a Dos Equis. Why didn't you just slurp water out of the stream in the cow pasture??If you get giardia you'll spend less on food next week!!!

shelivesthedream

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #696 on: October 14, 2017, 03:07:59 AM »
The thing about journals is that you're spending a sustained amount of time following along with one person who posts whatever they want, so presumably you'd be able to get a sense of whether they would welcome facepunches there or not. I've had lots of encouragement and a few stern talking tos but I think it's pretty evident from what I post there (both tone and topic) that I wouldn't welcome someone charging in with all fists blazing. Others are different and hopefully one can see that.

When I post elsewhere, if it's something I am really not interested in receiving any facepunches about then I'll put that in the OP and ask people to be gentle. Likewise, if I know I need a good shake up I'll request people don't hold back their facepunches!

nereo

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #697 on: October 14, 2017, 05:50:47 AM »
(Secretly, I'm hoping that Sol will be looking for a new project to occupy some of his free time, but I'm not holding my breath).

You're not the only person to express this thought, and I do like to write and I think I would enjoy writing a blog.  I intended to start one this summer, but then family relocations and a bunch of tenant turnover sucked up a lot of my free time on top of my 9-5 and three kids.

So I'll get around to it eventually.  You're all invited.  I'll start a thread soliciting ideas, when the time comes.
Even me?? 
What shall it be called?  Sol's Sunny Outlook on Life (a bit tongue in cheek)....?
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #698 on: October 14, 2017, 06:02:38 AM »
Part of the problem is that people aren't really taught to be tactful anymore. There's a way of giving face punches that will result in the person saying "Thank you, sir. May I please have another?" There are also people who simply aren't prepared for accepting criticism of any kind. We need to know when forceful criticism is necessary, when it's welcome, and when it's a lost cause.

Dicey

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #699 on: October 15, 2017, 05:56:41 PM »
Gotta say, this facepunch topic has been bugging me. Recently, I've said things like "Do you realize you're asking for advice in Facepunch Land?" to a few people. I've then been called out for face punching. WTF? Since when is using the term in a sentence the same as delivering an actual facepunch? Answer: When the community's gone soft. Caveat: I do not believe the community actually HAS gone soft.  I've noticed that the overwhelming majority of whingers are comparative newbs.

Many of us old-timers (Ha!) came over from the MMM blog. We knew and appreciated Pete's* tough-love, stoic style. Perhaps a lot of newbs are jumping straight onto the forum with no understanding of the environment they've launched themselves into.

Sidebar: An early member, Serpentstooth, started a thread called "Facepunch Me". She has long moved on, but her thread still gets hits. I smile and wish her well each time someone bumps the thread. I do hope she's found her happy ever after.

*In my general vicinity, there's a place called "Pete's Brass Rail and Car Wash". The subtitle is "There is no Brass Rail. There is no Car Wash. And who the hell is Pete?" I think of that every time I use MMM's given name.
I did it! I have a journal!
A Lot Like This
And hell yes, I am still moving confidently in the direction of my dreams...