Author Topic: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?  (Read 93054 times)

dragoncar

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7914
  • Registered member
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #550 on: September 20, 2017, 12:10:35 PM »
So like, a compendium of unmustachian things we should all go out and buy?

Jk, sounds like a good idea. You can't get better until you admit you have a problem.

I guess that already exists:  http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/what's-the-stupidest-thing-you're-lusting-after-right-now/?topicseen

Recently I've been involved in a thread about the financial costs of having your own pool.  The responses seem evenly split between "I'd advise against/had one &never again" and "why not, it's only a few thousand$ each year"

Fair enough. What i've found most interesting thought is to date not one person has asked the OP about his/her finances, and whether s/he is FI for considering such a luxury. I've avoided bringing it up and tried to just answer direct questions about costs given my former occupation as a 'pool boy'.

The difference may be the mustachianness of the owners.  If you do all the maintenance yourself, and don't heat the pool, have an efficient pump on a timer, it might cost $50/month plus some of your time.  IMO that ain't bad if it's something you use regularly and derive a lot of joy.  Of course that ignores the upfront cost, which you can only amortize over about 15 years before it needs bigly work. 

On the other hand, you can spend a hundred per week on a "pool guy"

nereo

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7884
  • Location: la belle province
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #551 on: September 20, 2017, 12:22:47 PM »
Recently I've been involved in a thread about the financial costs of having your own pool.  The responses seem evenly split between "I'd advise against/had one &never again" and "why not, it's only a few thousand$ each year"

Fair enough. What i've found most interesting thought is to date not one person has asked the OP about his/her finances, and whether s/he is FI for considering such a luxury. I've avoided bringing it up and tried to just answer direct questions about costs given my former occupation as a 'pool boy'.

The difference may be the mustachianness of the owners.  If you do all the maintenance yourself, and don't heat the pool, have an efficient pump on a timer, it might cost $50/month plus some of your time.  IMO that ain't bad if it's something you use regularly and derive a lot of joy.  Of course that ignores the upfront cost, which you can only amortize over about 15 years before it needs bigly work. 

On the other hand, you can spend a hundred per week on a "pool guy"
All decent points. I guess what's surprising to me is that the financial stability of the OP (and others) hasn't even entered into the conversation. In years past I think when someone floated the idea of an ongoing expense that was clearly a non-necessity one of the first questions to come up would be "well, are you already in good financial shape? lots of savings, no crushing debt"?  Now those questions don't seem to come up. To me it's moving more towards the 'YOLO' mentality than 'financial freedom through badassity'.
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

dragoncar

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7914
  • Registered member
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #552 on: September 20, 2017, 01:25:20 PM »
Recently I've been involved in a thread about the financial costs of having your own pool.  The responses seem evenly split between "I'd advise against/had one &never again" and "why not, it's only a few thousand$ each year"

Fair enough. What i've found most interesting thought is to date not one person has asked the OP about his/her finances, and whether s/he is FI for considering such a luxury. I've avoided bringing it up and tried to just answer direct questions about costs given my former occupation as a 'pool boy'.

The difference may be the mustachianness of the owners.  If you do all the maintenance yourself, and don't heat the pool, have an efficient pump on a timer, it might cost $50/month plus some of your time.  IMO that ain't bad if it's something you use regularly and derive a lot of joy.  Of course that ignores the upfront cost, which you can only amortize over about 15 years before it needs bigly work. 

On the other hand, you can spend a hundred per week on a "pool guy"
All decent points. I guess what's surprising to me is that the financial stability of the OP (and others) hasn't even entered into the conversation. In years past I think when someone floated the idea of an ongoing expense that was clearly a non-necessity one of the first questions to come up would be "well, are you already in good financial shape? lots of savings, no crushing debt"?  Now those questions don't seem to come up. To me it's moving more towards the 'YOLO' mentality than 'financial freedom through badassity'.

Oh yeah sorry I missed that point.  For some reason I was thinking this was like at work where people typically avoid asking personal financial questions.  But here on these forums?  Yeah totally that should be the first question

Dabnasty

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 915
  • Age: 28
  • Location: North Carolina
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #553 on: September 20, 2017, 02:09:31 PM »
Oh yeah sorry I missed that point.  For some reason I was thinking this was like at work where people typically avoid asking personal financial questions.  But here on these forums?  Yeah totally that should be the first question
Can you imagine if we talked to our coworkers the same way we talk to each other on the forum.

CW: so I'm thinking about getting a new truck...
Me: New truck? What's wrong with your current truck? Do you even need a truck? What would you use it for and how many times per year? What's your current savings rate? Net worth? Are you already FI?
CW: *backs away slowly*

slappy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 629
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #554 on: September 20, 2017, 02:17:25 PM »
Oh yeah sorry I missed that point.  For some reason I was thinking this was like at work where people typically avoid asking personal financial questions.  But here on these forums?  Yeah totally that should be the first question
Can you imagine if we talked to our coworkers the same way we talk to each other on the forum.

CW: so I'm thinking about getting a new truck...
Me: New truck? What's wrong with your current truck? Do you even need a truck? What would you use it for and how many times per year? What's your current savings rate? Net worth? Are you already FI?
CW: *backs away slowly*

Haha. I do talk to co workers like that. I don't talk to my family like that though. My BIL just dropped $50k on a brand new truck.

gerardc

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 628
  • Age: 34
  • Location: SF bay area
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #555 on: September 20, 2017, 07:24:54 PM »
Oh yeah sorry I missed that point.  For some reason I was thinking this was like at work where people typically avoid asking personal financial questions.  But here on these forums?  Yeah totally that should be the first question
Can you imagine if we talked to our coworkers the same way we talk to each other on the forum.

CW: so I'm thinking about getting a new truck...
Me: New truck? What's wrong with your current truck? Do you even need a truck? What would you use it for and how many times per year? What's your current savings rate? Net worth? Are you already FI?
CW: *backs away slowly*

Haha. I do talk to co workers like that. I don't talk to my family like that though. My BIL just dropped $50k on a brand new truck.

Screw that, I'm talking to ANYONE like that, because it's the truth and the interesting thing to ask!

Travis

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2245
  • Location: Arizona
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #556 on: September 20, 2017, 10:28:57 PM »
Oh yeah sorry I missed that point.  For some reason I was thinking this was like at work where people typically avoid asking personal financial questions.  But here on these forums?  Yeah totally that should be the first question
Can you imagine if we talked to our coworkers the same way we talk to each other on the forum.

CW: so I'm thinking about getting a new truck...
Me: New truck? What's wrong with your current truck? Do you even need a truck? What would you use it for and how many times per year? What's your current savings rate? Net worth? Are you already FI?
CW: *backs away slowly*

Not quite so directly or dramatically, but I asked those same questions to one of my coworkers last year regarding his desire to buy a new vs used SUV. His response "Well, if I want my wife to make my life a living hell for 5 years I could buy a used one."

I had no comeback.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2017, 11:17:31 PM by Travis »
My Journal: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/will-i-or-won't-i-a-home-run-or-a-base-hit/

Unlike some other tech companies or skilled-labor industries, we're always hiring.

www.goarmy.com

PizzaSteve

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 300
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #557 on: September 20, 2017, 11:01:52 PM »
I understand the sentiment to encourage low impact living, but many younger forum members may find that frugal living, good market returns and an independent lifestyle leave them in a situation with more wealth then they need.

In that situation, a modest luxury, like a pool, should not be a horror.  We should enjoy the fruits of our labor and not feel obligated to donate any spare penny to charity.  This is especially true if one spends wisely (e.g. vacation with full travel hacking, homestays, etc.).  Each of us should be confident enough with our own choices to support well reasoned decisions.  Buy that iPhone 10, if you REALLY want it, can afford it, and the value is worth it to you.

No outside person should judge our individual choices once FI is reached (IMHO).
All posts are opinions of the author subject to independent verification by the reader.  No representations of fact are asserted regarding commercial products or services.

Tass

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 553
  • Age: 25
  • Location: Southern California
  • Working on a PhD...
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #558 on: September 20, 2017, 11:45:19 PM »
Today's blog post reminded me of this thread. "Try giving up something you enjoy, and replacing it with something that improves your life."

happy

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3971
  • Location: NSW Australia
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #559 on: September 21, 2017, 03:39:29 AM »
But aren't pools subject to hedonic adaptation just like so many other "modest" luxuries?  I mean, why not walk or bike to your nearest beach, lake, river  or public swimming pool?

Interestingly in Australia, the highest density of swimming pools is on the coastal fringe where there is fairly easy access to nice swimming spots.

Seriously guys this thread has gone soft,  I can't believe we're now justifying having a personal swimming pool.
Journalling at Happy Aussie Downshifter

boarder42

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7299
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #560 on: September 21, 2017, 05:50:10 AM »
I understand the sentiment to encourage low impact living, but many younger forum members may find that frugal living, good market returns and an independent lifestyle leave them in a situation with more wealth then they need.

In that situation, a modest luxury, like a pool, should not be a horror.  We should enjoy the fruits of our labor and not feel obligated to donate any spare penny to charity.  This is especially true if one spends wisely (e.g. vacation with full travel hacking, homestays, etc.).  Each of us should be confident enough with our own choices to support well reasoned decisions.  Buy that iPhone 10, if you REALLY want it, can afford it, and the value is worth it to you.

No outside person should judge our individual choices once FI is reached (IMHO).

this forum exists to judge choices.  even after FI.  this goal around here should be to always push people to improve not to just give in to luxuries.  coming to this forum to get support for buying an iPhone 10 or to put in a pool should never cross someones mind. 

sure if you want to do those things b/c you are FI and can afford it thats awesome but this isnt a FAT FIRE forum its a FIRE forum.
My Miles Journal -Learn to Manufacture spend(MS)

Best bonuses on Credit cards right now
SW Plus Card 50k Bonus - use it with the Companion pass hack!

Personal Capital - Track your spending and Investing

WhiteTrashCash

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1145
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #561 on: September 21, 2017, 06:37:09 AM »
One of my neighbors has a swimming pool. Both the husband and wife work full-time, so there's nobody at home to do maintenance on that backyard pool. It got really dirty (along with their very cluttered and unmowed backyard, so they ended up hiring a service to clean it for them (along with doing their lawn maintenance on a tiny plot of land.)

I wonder how many hours of work per week they have to put in so they can use their pool a few times a year. Any way you cut it, a pool is not a worthwhile expense for most people. I can't believe anybody would argue in favor of them.

If you really want to go swimming, I bet a membership with a community pool club would be much less expensive.

Gondolin

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 497
  • Location: Northern VA
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #562 on: September 21, 2017, 07:09:41 AM »
Quote
Each of us should be confident enough with our own choices to support well reasoned decisions.

If someone is truly in the state you describe, what need have they of going on a forum to get a bunch of strangers to validate their choices?
"There cannot be two skies"

shelivesthedream

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3521
  • Location: London, UK
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #563 on: September 21, 2017, 08:32:36 AM »
I've never really understood the "You're FI so you can do anything you like!" statements. Surely it's more "You're FI so have to live within your budget or else you will have to go back to work, so you need to be even more conscious of what you're spending than someone who's working with a 50% savings rate."

And let us not forget one of the three main goals of the blog: To save the whole Human Race from destroying itself through overconsumption of its over habitat. [source: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/22/what-is-hedonic-adaptation-and-how-can-it-turn-you-into-a-sukka/]

caracarn

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1196
  • Age: 48
  • Location: Ohio
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #564 on: September 21, 2017, 08:49:58 AM »
Oh yeah sorry I missed that point.  For some reason I was thinking this was like at work where people typically avoid asking personal financial questions.  But here on these forums?  Yeah totally that should be the first question
Can you imagine if we talked to our coworkers the same way we talk to each other on the forum.

CW: so I'm thinking about getting a new truck...
Me: New truck? What's wrong with your current truck? Do you even need a truck? What would you use it for and how many times per year? What's your current savings rate? Net worth? Are you already FI?
CW: *backs away slowly*

Not quite so directly or dramatically, but I asked those same questions to one of my coworkers last year regarding his desire to buy a new vs used SUV. His response "Well, if I want my wife to make my life a living hell for 5 years I could buy a used one."

I had no comeback.
And THIS is usually the driver of most poor spending choices.  If your spouse is not on board with optimizing/frugality/mustachianism it's not always that you think you cam't do it, it's that you can't do it for sake of relationship stability. 

I try to keep this in mind whenever I respond to anyone.  In the case studies (the one everyone like here was a great example) if it shows that the other party (wife in that case) is not involved in the discussions of aware I go there pretty fast because the best laid plans fall to pieces without a united front.

caracarn

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1196
  • Age: 48
  • Location: Ohio
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #565 on: September 21, 2017, 08:56:03 AM »
No outside person should judge our individual choices once FI is reached (IMHO).
I ask this as a rather new member (a little less than two years), so if it seems a bit dumb, sorry, but I have never been clear on this.

When is one FI versus RE?  I think the challenge is that those two are always conflated on these forum discussions, so it really becomes if one if not already retired before making some purchase it gets hammered and if anyone supports it it is viewed as softening on the forums.  Per you fuller point, that if you discover you will have a boatload of cash in the end and that's not that important, you will perhaps choose to do a lot of non-mustachian things.  In my case, a recent analysis shows that if I work until 67 and then retire I'd likely have about $5MM left after I kick the bucket.  If I'm OK not RE, does that situation make me FI?  So therefore if I go buy a new Porsche it's no biggie, because it will lower my leftover to $3MM instead which is still more than enough?

caracarn

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1196
  • Age: 48
  • Location: Ohio
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #566 on: September 21, 2017, 08:58:18 AM »
I understand the sentiment to encourage low impact living, but many younger forum members may find that frugal living, good market returns and an independent lifestyle leave them in a situation with more wealth then they need.

In that situation, a modest luxury, like a pool, should not be a horror.  We should enjoy the fruits of our labor and not feel obligated to donate any spare penny to charity.  This is especially true if one spends wisely (e.g. vacation with full travel hacking, homestays, etc.).  Each of us should be confident enough with our own choices to support well reasoned decisions.  Buy that iPhone 10, if you REALLY want it, can afford it, and the value is worth it to you.

No outside person should judge our individual choices once FI is reached (IMHO).

this forum exists to judge choices.  even after FI.  this goal around here should be to always push people to improve not to just give in to luxuries.  coming to this forum to get support for buying an iPhone 10 or to put in a pool should never cross someones mind. 

sure if you want to do those things b/c you are FI and can afford it thats awesome but this isnt a FAT FIRE forum its a FIRE forum.
boarder this make sense to me.  Coming to a frugality forum at whatever point in your financial journey to discuss buying something extra is a poor idea.

nereo

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7884
  • Location: la belle province
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #567 on: September 21, 2017, 09:12:38 AM »
...
When is one FI versus RE? I think the challenge is that those two are always conflated on these forum discussions, so it really becomes if one if not already retired before making some purchase it gets hammered and if anyone supports it it is viewed as softening on the forums.  Per you fuller point, that if you discover you will have a boatload of cash in the end and that's not that important, you will perhaps choose to do a lot of non-mustachian things.  In my case, a recent analysis shows that if I work until 67 and then retire I'd likely have about $5MM left after I kick the bucket.  If I'm OK not RE, does that situation make me FI?  So therefore if I go buy a new Porsche it's no biggie, because it will lower my leftover to $3MM instead which is still more than enough?

FI = Financial(ly) Independent
RE = REtire(d) Early
FI/RE = Financially Independent & Retired Early

Adding to the confusion, FI is not even a single point, but can have many levels. For example, someone whoo says they are "fully FI" could quit work today and never earn another dime and be financially fine.  Others might call themselves "moderately FI" if they have a large stash, a cash surplus each month but aren't entirely comfortable with retirement just yet (i.e. they don't have enough savings to hit their ultimate WR, whatever that may be for that person). 

You can be FI and not retire (though its hard or impossible to claim retirement if you are not FI - you are just unemployed:-P ).
Many of us here strive to be FI but we won't necessarily RE right away.  For various reasons people who are fully FI may not retire right away, may switch to part-time or may switch fields entirely but continue to work.  Which brings us to...
the Internet Retirement Police (IRP).  Basically these are the people  who yell "that's not really retirement" if an individual who is fully FI does anything which provides a financial benefit. Because of the IRP its often easier to just say "I'm FI" instead of "I retired early (ER)."

clear?
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

boarder42

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7299
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #568 on: September 21, 2017, 09:27:51 AM »
...
When is one FI versus RE? I think the challenge is that those two are always conflated on these forum discussions, so it really becomes if one if not already retired before making some purchase it gets hammered and if anyone supports it it is viewed as softening on the forums.  Per you fuller point, that if you discover you will have a boatload of cash in the end and that's not that important, you will perhaps choose to do a lot of non-mustachian things.  In my case, a recent analysis shows that if I work until 67 and then retire I'd likely have about $5MM left after I kick the bucket.  If I'm OK not RE, does that situation make me FI?  So therefore if I go buy a new Porsche it's no biggie, because it will lower my leftover to $3MM instead which is still more than enough?

FI = Financial(ly) Independent
RE = REtire(d) Early
FI/RE = Financially Independent & Retired Early

Adding to the confusion, FI is not even a single point, but can have many levels. For example, someone whoo says they are "fully FI" could quit work today and never earn another dime and be financially fine.  Others might call themselves "moderately FI" if they have a large stash, a cash surplus each month but aren't entirely comfortable with retirement just yet (i.e. they don't have enough savings to hit their ultimate WR, whatever that may be for that person). 

You can be FI and not retire (though its hard or impossible to claim retirement if you are not FI - you are just unemployed:-P ).
Many of us here strive to be FI but we won't necessarily RE right away.  For various reasons people who are fully FI may not retire right away, may switch to part-time or may switch fields entirely but continue to work.  Which brings us to...
the Internet Retirement Police (IRP).  Basically these are the people  who yell "that's not really retirement" if an individual who is fully FI does anything which provides a financial benefit. Because of the IRP its often easier to just say "I'm FI" instead of "I retired early (ER)."

clear?

crystal mud
My Miles Journal -Learn to Manufacture spend(MS)

Best bonuses on Credit cards right now
SW Plus Card 50k Bonus - use it with the Companion pass hack!

Personal Capital - Track your spending and Investing

4alpacas

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1891
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #569 on: September 21, 2017, 09:43:56 AM »
Per you fuller point, that if you discover you will have a boatload of cash in the end and that's not that important, you will perhaps choose to do a lot of non-mustachian things.  In my case, a recent analysis shows that if I work until 67 and then retire I'd likely have about $5MM left after I kick the bucket.  If I'm OK not RE, does that situation make me FI?  So therefore if I go buy a new Porsche it's no biggie, because it will lower my leftover to $3MM instead which is still more than enough?
My focus is on figuring out what is enough rather than spending money on luxuries because I can "afford it."  I want to optimize my life, not spend money on things. 

RetiredAt63

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8600
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #570 on: September 21, 2017, 11:27:43 AM »
And if you are fully FI but really like your job, or think it benefits society, or whatever, you can be a SWAMI (Satisfied Working Advanced Mustachian Individual)(http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/04/30/weekend-edition-retire-in-your-mind-even-if-you-love-your-job/). I was a SWAMI for my last three years of work.

Coming back to FIRE, once you have adapted your life to Mustachian principles (you know, think before you buy, does this add value to your life, etc.) then once you are retired it is not difficult to keep on living the way you did before, because you have unhooked yourself from (most of) the consumerist lures society throws out.  Just because you have time to read them, you are not going to start reading all the circulars for all the stuff in your mailbox, you have learned that they do not bring joy to your life.  If you have dropped cable and let it stay dropped, you will continue to not be exposed to ads on TV.  So Mustachian retirement, early or not, will not look like standard retirement.

A bit more back to topic, I have a swimming pool because it came with the house.  So I maintain it and use it.    I would say it costs about $650/summer to run.  It doesn't give me $650 worth of satisfaction, but it does give me some, and looking at a swamp wold give me less satisfaction, and ripping it out and making the vacant space nice would be expensive and not give me more satisfaction, my back yard doesn't need anything added.  So I keep it and use it.  So looking at trade-offs, using the pool is the best of the 3 choices.  If it were not there I would not put one in, though.
The measure of civilization is how people treat one another.

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/meetups-and-social-events/ontario's-own-camp-mustache-2017/ - MEET US THERE!

honeybbq

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 987
  • Location: Seattle
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #571 on: September 21, 2017, 02:25:57 PM »
I lived in an area where everyone had a pool (including us). Hated having the pool, but you'd have a hard(er) time selling the house without it.

dragoncar

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7914
  • Registered member
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #572 on: September 21, 2017, 04:20:58 PM »
But aren't pools subject to hedonic adaptation just like so many other "modest" luxuries?  I mean, why not walk or bike to your nearest beach, lake, river  or public swimming pool?

Interestingly in Australia, the highest density of swimming pools is on the coastal fringe where there is fairly easy access to nice swimming spots.

Seriously guys this thread has gone soft,  I can't believe we're now justifying having a personal swimming pool.

They can be, but the only negative I see with a swimming pool you enjoy and can afford is the environmental impact, for example if you are in drought stricken area or burn fossil fuels to heats it. 

It's true a lot of people who have pools don't get much enjoyment out of them, and certainly not in proportion to their cost.

But that's not to say there aren't people who swim every day and love it.  My local public pool doesn't let me swim nude, float around on an inflatable lounge, or invite a bunch of people over to drink beer and grill.  They don't let me swim at night or in the rain.  They don't let me control the urine and chlorine levels.
 These are are all things I actually did growing up with a pool (don't have one now) and they are awesome.  They aren't really equivalent goods.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 04:22:34 PM by dragoncar »

scottish

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1128
  • Location: Ottawa
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #573 on: September 21, 2017, 05:14:30 PM »
A bit more back to topic, I have a swimming pool because it came with the house.  So I maintain it and use it.    I would say it costs about $650/summer to run.  It doesn't give me $650 worth of satisfaction, but it does give me some, and looking at a swamp wold give me less satisfaction, and ripping it out and making the vacant space nice would be expensive and not give me more satisfaction, my back yard doesn't need anything added.  So I keep it and use it.  So looking at trade-offs, using the pool is the best of the 3 choices.  If it were not there I would not put one in, though.

Our house came with a pool as well (17 years ago).    It was ok with the kids, but now they're gone.   I compared the cost of a new liner to the cost of removing the pool last year...    the answer was clear.   The extra cost for removal will be covered end of next summer.  Plus no more chemicals, vacuuming, minor repairs, occasional fights with algae.   And it was too small to swim in.   I mean 40 feet long?   That's like "turn, 2 strokes, turn, 2 strokes"   Life is much better now.

Does your $650/year include capital costs such as a new liner?   

I think a pool is a silly thing to purchase, but I didn't see the thread asking for advice.  30K so you can splash around in 12000 gallons of water with your friends?    Not to mention the risk factor if you have little kids.   Our youngest fell in the pool at a BBQ once and it could have been bad news if I didn't see him.
Actually, throughout my life, my two greatest assets have been mental stability and being, like, really smart.

Optimiser

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 535
  • Age: 35
  • Location: PNW
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #574 on: September 21, 2017, 05:18:16 PM »
This thread: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/send-hubby-up-a-ladder-or-pay-$400/ blows my mind. I had forgotten about it but it keeps popping up. I cannot fathom the number of people who refuse to climb a ladder.

RetiredAt63

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8600
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #575 on: September 21, 2017, 05:24:24 PM »
This thread: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/send-hubby-up-a-ladder-or-pay-$400/ blows my mind. I had forgotten about it but it keeps popping up. I cannot fathom the number of people who refuse to climb a ladder.
I thought the answers were quite sensible,  Some people should not or cannot do some DIY things.
The measure of civilization is how people treat one another.

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/meetups-and-social-events/ontario's-own-camp-mustache-2017/ - MEET US THERE!

RetiredAt63

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8600
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #576 on: September 21, 2017, 05:27:56 PM »

Does your $650/year include capital costs such as a new liner?   


No, $650 is operational.  If anything major needs repairs, it goes (pump more likely than liner).  Water is not an issue, here in soggy wet south-eastern Ontario.  27' diameter pool means 5 little strokes and hit an edge - I drift a lot instead.  If I were going to spend money on a pool it would be one of those endless ones, where you can swim forever against a current.  I much prefer lakes, but no cottage.
The measure of civilization is how people treat one another.

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/meetups-and-social-events/ontario's-own-camp-mustache-2017/ - MEET US THERE!

La Bibliotecaria Feroz

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3556
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #577 on: September 21, 2017, 05:29:14 PM »
This thread: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/send-hubby-up-a-ladder-or-pay-$400/ blows my mind. I had forgotten about it but it keeps popping up. I cannot fathom the number of people who refuse to climb a ladder.
I thought the answers were quite sensible,  Some people should not or cannot do some DIY things.

I agree. One poster said her husband had been horrifically injured using a ladder. Some people can do it, for some it's a terrible idea.

RetiredAt63

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8600
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #578 on: September 21, 2017, 05:29:39 PM »
You want spendy and soft?  Go read Also $800,000 in debt; in a good position but still interested in your help in Case Studies.
The measure of civilization is how people treat one another.

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/meetups-and-social-events/ontario's-own-camp-mustache-2017/ - MEET US THERE!

happy

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3971
  • Location: NSW Australia
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #579 on: September 21, 2017, 05:37:10 PM »
I've never really understood the "You're FI so you can do anything you like!" statements. Surely it's more "You're FI so have to live within your budget or else you will have to go back to work, so you need to be even more conscious of what you're spending than someone who's working with a 50% savings rate."

And let us not forget one of the three main goals of the blog: To save the whole Human Race from destroying itself through overconsumption of its over habitat. [source: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/22/what-is-hedonic-adaptation-and-how-can-it-turn-you-into-a-sukka/]

This


I've never really understood the "You're FI so you can do anything you like!" statements. Surely it's more "You're FI so have to live within your budget or else you will have to go back to work, so you need to be even more conscious of what you're spending than someone who's working with a 50% savings rate."

And let us not forget one of the three main goals of the blog: To save the whole Human Race from destroying itself through overconsumption of its over habitat. [source: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/22/what-is-hedonic-adaptation-and-how-can-it-turn-you-into-a-sukka/]
This. I've been FI and RE a long time and while I'm able to live a comfortable lifestyle on my passive income its not like I can send the maid out to buy me multiple $800 blenders or the chauffeur out to buy me a new Beemer or the pool boy to do...er....pool boy stuff. I still have to watch what I spend or would eventually have to go back to work (the HORROR).

MMM is about recognizing and letting go of comsumerist drives and the emotional baggage that causes that drive. Learning that consumption isn't the key to happiness and that your life can be better without all the accoutrements of wealth or the desire to attain those things.  Its not about "living like no one else so you can eventually live like no one else". There's another dude out there for that kind of high spending retired life ;-).

This

And finally this:

this forum exists to judge choices.  even after FI.  this goal around here should be to always push people to improve not to just give in to luxuries.  coming to this forum to get support for buying an iPhone 10 or to put in a pool should never cross someones mind. 

sure if you want to do those things b/c you are FI and can afford it thats awesome but this isnt a FAT FIRE forum its a FIRE forum.
boarder this make sense to me.  Coming to a frugality forum at whatever point in your financial journey to discuss buying something extra is a poor idea.

And thats all I have to say on the matter.
Journalling at Happy Aussie Downshifter

BlueMR2

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1958
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #580 on: September 21, 2017, 05:42:01 PM »
This thread: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/send-hubby-up-a-ladder-or-pay-$400/ blows my mind. I had forgotten about it but it keeps popping up. I cannot fathom the number of people who refuse to climb a ladder.
I thought the answers were quite sensible,  Some people should not or cannot do some DIY things.

Excellent reason to stick with a reasonably sized single story home.  At that height there's risk, but it's still relatively manageable.  Once you go up to that second story you're very nearly guaranteed a bad time in a fall.

Optimiser

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 535
  • Age: 35
  • Location: PNW
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #581 on: September 21, 2017, 09:20:29 PM »
This thread: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/send-hubby-up-a-ladder-or-pay-$400/ blows my mind. I had forgotten about it but it keeps popping up. I cannot fathom the number of people who refuse to climb a ladder.
I thought the answers were quite sensible,  Some people should not or cannot do some DIY things.
But that thread IS about a single story home!
Excellent reason to stick with a reasonably sized single story home.  At that height there's risk, but it's still relatively manageable.  Once you go up to that second story you're very nearly guaranteed a bad time in a fall.

Goldielocks

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5350
  • Location: BC
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #582 on: September 21, 2017, 10:37:47 PM »
This thread: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/send-hubby-up-a-ladder-or-pay-$400/ blows my mind. I had forgotten about it but it keeps popping up. I cannot fathom the number of people who refuse to climb a ladder.
I thought the answers were quite sensible,  Some people should not or cannot do some DIY things.

Excellent reason to stick with a reasonably sized single story home.  At that height there's risk, but it's still relatively manageable.  Once you go up to that second story you're very nearly guaranteed a bad time in a fall.

The poster about the $400 ladder work was painting a 1 storey home...   I can understand paying for the painters to save you all your weekends over summer...its a value for time equation..   but I had trouble wrapping my head around this one, a single storey... two healthy adults means at least one should be able to do it..

Mr Griz

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 45
  • Location: Texas
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #583 on: September 22, 2017, 06:39:57 AM »
I have to admit falling off a ladder a few years ago while trimming a storm-damaged tree. Four cracked ribs. I still do ladder work but am now much more careful about how I do it. Take your time, think about what could go wrong, etc.

Caoineag

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 497
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Denver
    • My Journal
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #584 on: September 22, 2017, 07:38:25 AM »
Is it just because I grew up with construction workers that I understand the cost of falling off a ladder or is it that you guys have too much faith in ladders? Every single person I know who has done construction work has fallen from a ladder at one time or another. Sometimes the ladder fails, sometimes you slip, sometimes the ground gives. They know what they are doing and there are still accidents. My father is on his 3rd back surgery from a fall during his younger years, my grandfather gave up going up ladders when he was younger because it isn't worth the risk (he's in his 90s and still doing carpentry, so this is a fit experienced person).

I am not saying don't ever go up a ladder. I am saying, always have someone else there and know that eventually you will fall. That's why past a certain point, you should be using scaffolding not ladders, especially not extension ladders. If someone doesn't feel safe going up an extension ladder, they shouldn't do it. My single story house can't have the top of the steeple painted from the ladder I do trust (you will never get me up an extension ladder again, I own an awesome step ladder instead). I helped to build my previous home. I felt that stupid extension ladder shift even on solid footing. No, just no. For painting, scaffolding or a much taller step ladder is the safer bet.

SoundFuture

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 58
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #585 on: September 22, 2017, 08:13:09 AM »
Is it just because I grew up with construction workers that I understand the cost of falling off a ladder or is it that you guys have too much faith in ladders? Every single person I know who has done construction work has fallen from a ladder at one time or another. Sometimes the ladder fails, sometimes you slip, sometimes the ground gives. They know what they are doing and there are still accidents. My father is on his 3rd back surgery from a fall during his younger years, my grandfather gave up going up ladders when he was younger because it isn't worth the risk (he's in his 90s and still doing carpentry, so this is a fit experienced person).

I am not saying don't ever go up a ladder. I am saying, always have someone else there and know that eventually you will fall. That's why past a certain point, you should be using scaffolding not ladders, especially not extension ladders. If someone doesn't feel safe going up an extension ladder, they shouldn't do it. My single story house can't have the top of the steeple painted from the ladder I do trust (you will never get me up an extension ladder again, I own an awesome step ladder instead). I helped to build my previous home. I felt that stupid extension ladder shift even on solid footing. No, just no. For painting, scaffolding or a much taller step ladder is the safer bet.

As an engineer who's out inspecting the progress of construction all the time I have to say you know exactly what you're talking about.  Give me a sturdy A-frame, I'm not going up that extension ladder.  The arms in my dad's extension ladder broke off on me as a teenage going to help him on top of the roof. I rode it down until it clamped my feet, the ladder feet slid back and caught something in the ground as the top fell off the eave to the masonry, it flipped upside down, and I somehow dropped down about six feet to the ground without injuring myself all in one maneuver.

In my professional life I've seen no less than two architects fall off of extension ladders. One of them was hospitalized. No thank you.

nereo

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7884
  • Location: la belle province
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #586 on: September 22, 2017, 09:23:37 AM »
Is it just because I grew up with construction workers that I understand the cost of falling off a ladder or is it that you guys have too much faith in ladders? Every single person I know who has done construction work has fallen from a ladder at one time or another. Sometimes the ladder fails, sometimes you slip, sometimes the ground gives. They know what they are doing and there are still accidents. My father is on his 3rd back surgery from a fall during his younger years, my grandfather gave up going up ladders when he was younger because it isn't worth the risk (he's in his 90s and still doing carpentry, so this is a fit experienced person).

I am not saying don't ever go up a ladder. I am saying, always have someone else there and know that eventually you will fall. That's why past a certain point, you should be using scaffolding not ladders, especially not extension ladders. If someone doesn't feel safe going up an extension ladder, they shouldn't do it. My single story house can't have the top of the steeple painted from the ladder I do trust (you will never get me up an extension ladder again, I own an awesome step ladder instead). I helped to build my previous home. I felt that stupid extension ladder shift even on solid footing. No, just no. For painting, scaffolding or a much taller step ladder is the safer bet.

As an engineer who's out inspecting the progress of construction all the time I have to say you know exactly what you're talking about.  Give me a sturdy A-frame, I'm not going up that extension ladder.  The arms in my dad's extension ladder broke off on me as a teenage going to help him on top of the roof. I rode it down until it clamped my feet, the ladder feet slid back and caught something in the ground as the top fell off the eave to the masonry, it flipped upside down, and I somehow dropped down about six feet to the ground without injuring myself all in one maneuver.

In my professional life I've seen no less than two architects fall off of extension ladders. One of them was hospitalized. No thank you.
What are your feelings on aluminum pump-jack systems in lieu of extension ladders?
(Yeah, i aks because that's what I"m using right now...)
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

Dicey

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7942
  • Age: 60
  • Location: NorCal
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #587 on: September 23, 2017, 10:38:03 AM »
Is it just because I grew up with construction workers that I understand the cost of falling off a ladder or is it that you guys have too much faith in ladders? Every single person I know who has done construction work has fallen from a ladder at one time or another. Sometimes the ladder fails, sometimes you slip, sometimes the ground gives. They know what they are doing and there are still accidents. My father is on his 3rd back surgery from a fall during his younger years, my grandfather gave up going up ladders when he was younger because it isn't worth the risk (he's in his 90s and still doing carpentry, so this is a fit experienced person).

I am not saying don't ever go up a ladder. I am saying, always have someone else there and know that eventually you will fall. That's why past a certain point, you should be using scaffolding not ladders, especially not extension ladders. If someone doesn't feel safe going up an extension ladder, they shouldn't do it. My single story house can't have the top of the steeple painted from the ladder I do trust (you will never get me up an extension ladder again, I own an awesome step ladder instead). I helped to build my previous home. I felt that stupid extension ladder shift even on solid footing. No, just no. For painting, scaffolding or a much taller step ladder is the safer bet.

As an engineer who's out inspecting the progress of construction all the time I have to say you know exactly what you're talking about.  Give me a sturdy A-frame, I'm not going up that extension ladder.  The arms in my dad's extension ladder broke off on me as a teenage going to help him on top of the roof. I rode it down until it clamped my feet, the ladder feet slid back and caught something in the ground as the top fell off the eave to the masonry, it flipped upside down, and I somehow dropped down about six feet to the ground without injuring myself all in one maneuver.

In my professional life I've seen no less than two architects fall off of extension ladders. One of them was hospitalized. No thank you.
What are your feelings on aluminum pump-jack systems in lieu of extension ladders?
(Yeah, i aks because that's what I"m using right now...)
You didn't "aks" me, but I think you should not mix using ladders and communication devices. Use them sequentially, not in tandem. Focus, nereo, we like you.
ETA: Ya, I misspelled your name, but I still like you😂
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 04:59:34 PM by Dicey »
I did it! I have a journal!
A Lot Like This
And hell yes, I am still moving confidently in the direction of my dreams...

caracarn

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1196
  • Age: 48
  • Location: Ohio
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #588 on: September 25, 2017, 11:15:58 AM »
So yet another post goes incredibly soft
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/your-new-phone-will-probably-cost-you-$1-000!

I almost commented on ooeeii's justification on how buying the phone was more environmentally friendly.  I stopped myself as it was pointless.  The sheep are being led to the slaughter every day.

farfromfire

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 235
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #589 on: September 26, 2017, 02:24:00 AM »
So yet another post goes incredibly soft
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/your-new-phone-will-probably-cost-you-$1-000!

I almost commented on ooeeii's justification on how buying the phone was more environmentally friendly.  I stopped myself as it was pointless.  The sheep are being led to the slaughter every day.
Yea, especially when great smartphones can be had for 200-400$.

dragoncar

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7914
  • Registered member
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #590 on: September 26, 2017, 08:19:36 AM »
So yet another post goes incredibly soft
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/your-new-phone-will-probably-cost-you-$1-000!

I almost commented on ooeeii's justification on how buying the phone was more environmentally friendly.  I stopped myself as it was pointless.  The sheep are being led to the slaughter every day.
Yea, especially when great smartphones can be had for 200-400$.

I think the iPads are misprinted relative to iPhones.  Compare the specs and price of the iPad mini (cellular) with the iPhone plus.  There’s a very large premium for that phone app!
Wonder if you can jailbreak the iPad to install the phone app

facepalm

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 261
  • Location: California
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #591 on: October 02, 2017, 10:12:59 PM »
So yet another post goes incredibly soft
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/your-new-phone-will-probably-cost-you-$1-000!

I almost commented on ooeeii's justification on how buying the phone was more environmentally friendly.  I stopped myself as it was pointless.  The sheep are being led to the slaughter every day.
Yea, especially when great smartphones can be had for 200-400$.
Still too many zeroes.

:-}

farfromfire

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 235
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #592 on: October 02, 2017, 11:43:11 PM »
So yet another post goes incredibly soft
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/your-new-phone-will-probably-cost-you-$1-000!

I almost commented on ooeeii's justification on how buying the phone was more environmentally friendly.  I stopped myself as it was pointless.  The sheep are being led to the slaughter every day.
Yea, especially when great smartphones can be had for 200-400$.
Still too many zeroes.

:-}
I guess, but for something I use every day for 3+ years 200$ is not bad.

nnls

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1041
  • Location: Perth, AU
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #593 on: October 03, 2017, 02:44:58 AM »
So yet another post goes incredibly soft
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/your-new-phone-will-probably-cost-you-$1-000!

I almost commented on ooeeii's justification on how buying the phone was more environmentally friendly.  I stopped myself as it was pointless.  The sheep are being led to the slaughter every day.
Yea, especially when great smartphones can be had for 200-400$.

I think the iPads are misprinted relative to iPhones.  Compare the specs and price of the iPad mini (cellular) with the iPhone plus.  There’s a very large premium for that phone app!
Wonder if you can jailbreak the iPad to install the phone app

Could you install whatsapp/skype or something similar for making calls /texts?

elaine amj

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2341
  • Location: Ontario
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #594 on: October 03, 2017, 08:16:54 AM »

I think the iPads are misprinted relative to iPhones.  Compare the specs and price of the iPad mini (cellular) with the iPhone plus.  There’s a very large premium for that phone app!
Wonder if you can jailbreak the iPad to install the phone app

Could you install whatsapp/skype or something similar for making calls /texts?

If you want a real phone number, I use Talkatone. Freetone is another good one. It gives you an actual US phone number that other people can call/text. I have installed them successfully on an iPod. I also use Whatsapp and Skype frequently - but people actually need to be on those platforms to use them.

Currently my DH has an iPhone but has a prepaid data only plan and uses those various apps to call/text on data/wifi. Call quality is not as good but it is dramatically cheaper.
My journal: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/realigning-spending-to-match-our-future-goals-a-canadian-journey/

Camp Mustache Canada 2017 was everything I dreamed of and more. Super excited that Camp Mustache Canada 2018 is now a thing!

rdaneel0

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 294
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #595 on: October 05, 2017, 09:14:52 AM »

TL:DR: I see a shift here from a more ERE crowd who were lower earners but saved a ton in order to reachbFI and possibly RE asap to a younger higher earning crowd that saves a lot but also spends a lot.


I feel like the forum has gotten blasted with super high earners in the last year or so. I don't see a pattern with age as much, but I definitely used to feel motivated by and interested in more threads. Now so many conversations are either consumery-y and about buying things (usually things way too expensive for me to ever consider) or just wildly unrelatable (i.e. lots of people saving 60% of income but still spending double or triple what I spend, doing $20k of lawn work, etc).

Of course I think high earners should be welcome here, but it just feels like there's almost not a place for average or lower earning MMM people. There also seems to be a real lack of perspective regarding wealth and income, which makes a lot of conversations unproductive. I always loved how MMM was about being positive and making yourself better and stronger no matter the circumstances, but some of these posts have people saying things like "we're not even that high earning, we only make about $150k a year combined!" It's like, newsflash: you are in the top 3% of the United States. And no, living in a HCOL area doesn't completely erase that, because low income people also live in HCOL areas.

I think this also skews people's ideas of spending because most people here just use savings percentages in casual conversations. It's like, yeah 50% sounds great, but if you're making a huge salary it's really not that impressive or even frugal. So there's this idea floating around here now that being frugal can totally include new cars, remodeling projects, tons of travel, expensive appliances, fancy gyms, spas, and basically a bunch of other trappings of wealth. Just because you can technically afford those things and still save money doesn't make them prudent choices, and it doesn't make the saver someone who really buys into (pardon the pun) a lot of what first attracted me to MMM, which is the philosophy.

And, scene.
I write about my $300 a month food and household budget in a HCOL area. I also post photos of my groceries and meals, and lots of meal plans, plus musings and $ tracking: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/journey-to-the-center-of-the-'stache/

ketchup

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3360
  • Age: 27
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #596 on: October 05, 2017, 10:03:40 AM »
Of course I think high earners should be welcome here, but it just feels like there's almost not a place for average or lower earning MMM people. There also seems to be a real lack of perspective regarding wealth and income, which makes a lot of conversations unproductive. I always loved how MMM was about being positive and making yourself better and stronger no matter the circumstances, but some of these posts have people saying things like "we're not even that high earning, we only make about $150k a year combined!" It's like, newsflash: you are in the top 3% of the United States. And no, living in a HCOL area doesn't completely erase that, because low income people also live in HCOL areas.

I think this also skews people's ideas of spending because most people here just use savings percentages in casual conversations. It's like, yeah 50% sounds great, but if you're making a huge salary it's really not that impressive or even frugal. So there's this idea floating around here now that being frugal can totally include new cars, remodeling projects, tons of travel, expensive appliances, fancy gyms, spas, and basically a bunch of other trappings of wealth. Just because you can technically afford those things and still save money doesn't make them prudent choices, and it doesn't make the saver someone who really buys into (pardon the pun) a lot of what first attracted me to MMM, which is the philosophy.

And, scene.
Yes, yes, 100% yes.  People will claim that ~100k isn't "that much" and it makes me do a double take every time.  GF and I combined make a bit above my area's household median, which is more like $60k, and it still feels to me like we make silly amounts of money.  It's all about perspective.

dougules

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1186
  • Location: AL
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #597 on: October 05, 2017, 11:38:30 AM »
Of course I think high earners should be welcome here, but it just feels like there's almost not a place for average or lower earning MMM people. There also seems to be a real lack of perspective regarding wealth and income, which makes a lot of conversations unproductive. I always loved how MMM was about being positive and making yourself better and stronger no matter the circumstances, but some of these posts have people saying things like "we're not even that high earning, we only make about $150k a year combined!" It's like, newsflash: you are in the top 3% of the United States. And no, living in a HCOL area doesn't completely erase that, because low income people also live in HCOL areas.

I think this also skews people's ideas of spending because most people here just use savings percentages in casual conversations. It's like, yeah 50% sounds great, but if you're making a huge salary it's really not that impressive or even frugal. So there's this idea floating around here now that being frugal can totally include new cars, remodeling projects, tons of travel, expensive appliances, fancy gyms, spas, and basically a bunch of other trappings of wealth. Just because you can technically afford those things and still save money doesn't make them prudent choices, and it doesn't make the saver someone who really buys into (pardon the pun) a lot of what first attracted me to MMM, which is the philosophy.

And, scene.
Yes, yes, 100% yes.  People will claim that ~100k isn't "that much" and it makes me do a double take every time.  GF and I combined make a bit above my area's household median, which is more like $60k, and it still feels to me like we make silly amounts of money.  It's all about perspective.

This forum is not at all a representative sample of the US, less yet the world as a whole.  There are plenty of people in some parts of the world that could take that $100k and live what they would consider a pretty decent lifestyle off the $4k SWA.  Cost of living may be cheaper where they are, but not that much cheaper. 

That being said, I don't know why people in the forums are so stuck on frugality.  All the MMM articles are just about cutting out the truly ridiculous wasteful things that don't actually help your happiness.  I don't think many people here are planning on going without luxuries like hot water, 21st century health care, or a cell phone.  That's true frugality. 

ketchup

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3360
  • Age: 27
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #598 on: October 05, 2017, 11:40:17 AM »
Of course I think high earners should be welcome here, but it just feels like there's almost not a place for average or lower earning MMM people. There also seems to be a real lack of perspective regarding wealth and income, which makes a lot of conversations unproductive. I always loved how MMM was about being positive and making yourself better and stronger no matter the circumstances, but some of these posts have people saying things like "we're not even that high earning, we only make about $150k a year combined!" It's like, newsflash: you are in the top 3% of the United States. And no, living in a HCOL area doesn't completely erase that, because low income people also live in HCOL areas.

I think this also skews people's ideas of spending because most people here just use savings percentages in casual conversations. It's like, yeah 50% sounds great, but if you're making a huge salary it's really not that impressive or even frugal. So there's this idea floating around here now that being frugal can totally include new cars, remodeling projects, tons of travel, expensive appliances, fancy gyms, spas, and basically a bunch of other trappings of wealth. Just because you can technically afford those things and still save money doesn't make them prudent choices, and it doesn't make the saver someone who really buys into (pardon the pun) a lot of what first attracted me to MMM, which is the philosophy.

And, scene.
Yes, yes, 100% yes.  People will claim that ~100k isn't "that much" and it makes me do a double take every time.  GF and I combined make a bit above my area's household median, which is more like $60k, and it still feels to me like we make silly amounts of money.  It's all about perspective.

This forum is not at all a representative sample of the US, less yet the world as a whole.  There are plenty of people in some parts of the world that could take that $100k and live what they would consider a pretty decent lifestyle off the $4k SWA.  Cost of living may be cheaper where they are, but not that much cheaper. 
I should have clarified.  I didn't mean 100k as an amount of money, I meant as a yearly salary.

slappy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 629
Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #599 on: October 05, 2017, 01:04:38 PM »
Of course I think high earners should be welcome here, but it just feels like there's almost not a place for average or lower earning MMM people. There also seems to be a real lack of perspective regarding wealth and income, which makes a lot of conversations unproductive. I always loved how MMM was about being positive and making yourself better and stronger no matter the circumstances, but some of these posts have people saying things like "we're not even that high earning, we only make about $150k a year combined!" It's like, newsflash: you are in the top 3% of the United States. And no, living in a HCOL area doesn't completely erase that, because low income people also live in HCOL areas.

I think this also skews people's ideas of spending because most people here just use savings percentages in casual conversations. It's like, yeah 50% sounds great, but if you're making a huge salary it's really not that impressive or even frugal. So there's this idea floating around here now that being frugal can totally include new cars, remodeling projects, tons of travel, expensive appliances, fancy gyms, spas, and basically a bunch of other trappings of wealth. Just because you can technically afford those things and still save money doesn't make them prudent choices, and it doesn't make the saver someone who really buys into (pardon the pun) a lot of what first attracted me to MMM, which is the philosophy.

And, scene.
Yes, yes, 100% yes.  People will claim that ~100k isn't "that much" and it makes me do a double take every time.  GF and I combined make a bit above my area's household median, which is more like $60k, and it still feels to me like we make silly amounts of money.  It's all about perspective.

This forum is not at all a representative sample of the US, less yet the world as a whole.  There are plenty of people in some parts of the world that could take that $100k and live what they would consider a pretty decent lifestyle off the $4k SWA.  Cost of living may be cheaper where they are, but not that much cheaper. 

That being said, I don't know why people in the forums are so stuck on frugality.  All the MMM articles are just about cutting out the truly ridiculous wasteful things that don't actually help your happiness.  I don't think many people here are planning on going without luxuries like hot water, 21st century health care, or a cell phone.  That's true frugality.

How is going without healthcare “true frugality”?