Author Topic: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?  (Read 59795 times)

dividendman

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #50 on: August 18, 2017, 12:49:03 PM »
Remember all of those threads on "what if everyone becomes frugal/mustachian?" and how the economy and world would implode?

I guess we don't have to worry since we can't even keep our own community frugal/mustachian.

Dabnasty

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #51 on: August 18, 2017, 12:57:45 PM »
What if "my values" tell me to buy an $800 blender?
If your values really and truly tell you to buy it then yes, it is mustachian.
People believe unverifiable crap all the time. In the most extreme example, believing is such a strong force that it leads people to take their own lives.

How strongly one believes something is not relevant when examining its validity.
I'm pretty sure Sol was being sarcastic and my comment is out of context as quoted.

When I say values I don't mean someone believes it is worth the costs, but rather that it truly is worth the cost based on a cost benefit analyses. The benefit side of the analyses can include that person's happiness, trouble is we typically judge that purchases will bring us more happiness than they really do.

Optimiser

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #52 on: August 18, 2017, 01:03:59 PM »
Quote from: Dabnasty
Drives me nuts. But I guess the Wheaton scale applies even to those who aspire to FIRE.
I had to look that up, but it seems Very applicable.

Fire2025

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #53 on: August 18, 2017, 01:16:43 PM »
But the forums haven't just drifted from the money aspect. I feel like a great deal of people don't fully understand Mustachianism at this point. It's not just about MONEY.

It's also about minimalism, stoicism, being environmentally and socially responsible. I feel a lot of these tenets have lost their fervor on the forums, especially in the past year.

There was a thread where someone posted that their neighbor drove their kid to school something like 4 blocks.  Instead of everyone saying ya that's crazy, get your badass self powered motor running and walk the 4 blocks.  It was all about how hard it is to walk your kids to school.  I'm not talking blizzards and 40below temps, just to hard to walk your kids to school, so it's okay to drive 4 blocks. 

I knew then things were changing around here.  haha!!

solon

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #54 on: August 18, 2017, 01:19:57 PM »
Millennials might be the only group to complain more than the GenXers.

Or maybe every generation gets to be the scapegoat, in their turn.

Fire2025

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #55 on: August 18, 2017, 01:34:10 PM »
Or maybe every generation gets to be the scapegoat, in their turn.

This!!

Uturn

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #56 on: August 18, 2017, 01:39:51 PM »
Or maybe every generation gets to be the scapegoat, in their turn.

Nope!  It's either the baby boomers or the millennials, sometimes GenY.  Us GenX'ers got it right. 

Maybe the forum is getting softer because no one wants to know about the $1000 worth of upgrade parts that I had in my checkout cart waiting for me to hit submit, and instead I put $2500 into Vanguard. 
It's not about money, it's about mindset

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #57 on: August 18, 2017, 01:46:51 PM »
Most of my work problems came from Late Gen Xers.

Just FYI, Millennials=Gen Y. We got our own cool name after a while :)

Cwadda

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #58 on: August 18, 2017, 01:59:26 PM »
Remember all of those threads on "what if everyone becomes frugal/mustachian?" and how the economy and world would implode?

I guess we don't have to worry since we can't even keep our own community frugal/mustachian.

Being frugal =/= being Mustachian.

Cwadda

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #59 on: August 18, 2017, 02:09:50 PM »
Also, the changing meaning of "badassery" around these forums. The number of posts about getting a promotion, cutting your grocery bill, losing weight,  leaving your job etc....these are normal things -  aren't badass! Stop skewing the meaning!

Badass is biking to work during the winter, going through a dumpster to get your groceries, and manually taking a wasp nest out of your yard with your bare hands.

Get with the program, people!

nereo

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #60 on: August 18, 2017, 02:32:57 PM »
At the risk of pissing off ~1/3 of this forum, I'm going to say that the Baby Boomers are the biggest complainers of any generation.  They stumbled into arguably the most stable 50 year economic period in history, missed out on the horrors of WWII and, thanks to their parents, reaped all of the post-war rewards. To be fair they had Vietnam and the cold war but they were mostly kids during the civil rights movement. In the 1970s it was the boomers (in their late teens and 20s) who partook in the sexual and drug revolutions. By the 80s they were the dominant generation in business, politics and society. What did they do?  Over the next few decades they drove the debt-to-GDP to their highest levels in a non-wartime environment and started the whole 'no-more-taxes' movement.  More recently they've been the group most responsible for increasing the entitlement network for seniors (a demographic they are quickly moving into).  Under this generation the opinion on the federal government has gone from something we are apart of and actively foster to some seperate, almost evil entity that stifles growth, steals our money, is inherently corrupt and must be reduced at all costs ("drown it in a bathtub!"). They deferred maintenance on the bridges and infrastructure systems their parents built while voting to cut their capitol gains taxes. They liked disco. All-in-all the boomers suffered less, demanded more, blamed the government, and kicked the can down the road.  Oh, and who was the demographic who voted most heavily for DJT?  not milllennials or GenXrs, but boomers.

ah, let the hateful responses come raining down!
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 03:08:03 PM by nereo »
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StarBright

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #61 on: August 18, 2017, 02:44:44 PM »
Also, the changing meaning of "badassery" around these forums. The number of posts about getting a promotion, cutting your grocery bill, losing weight,  leaving your job etc....these are normal things -  aren't badass! Stop skewing the meaning!

Badass is biking to work during the winter, going through a dumpster to get your groceries, and manually taking a wasp nest out of your yard with your bare hands.

Get with the program, people!

Maybe you can start a sticky with "the original meaning of mustachianism" or something. Or an "I will tell you if you are a bad*ss" thread. I'm not being facetious and actually think something like that would be sort of fun.




GuitarStv

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #62 on: August 18, 2017, 02:45:15 PM »
At the risk of pissing off ~1/3 of this forum, I'm going to say that the Baby Boomers are the biggest complainers of any generation.  They stumbled into the arguably the most stable 50 year economic period in history, missed out on the horrors of WWII thanks to their parents, and reaped all of the post-war rewards. To be fair they had Vietnam and the cold war but they were mostly kids during the civil rights movement. In the 1970s it was the boomers (in their late teens and 20s) who partook in the sexual and drug revolutions. By the 80s they were the dominant generation in business, politics and society. what did they do?  Over the next few decades they drove the debt-to-GDP to their highest levels in a non-wartime environment and started the whole 'no-more-taxes' movement.  More recently they've been the group most responsible for increasing the entitlement network for seniors (a demographic they are quickly moving into).  Under this generation the opinion on the federal government has gone from something we are apart of and actively foster to some seperate, almost evil entity that stifles growth, steals our money, is inherently corrupt and must be reduced at all costs ("drown it in a bathtub!"). They deferred maintenance on the bridges and infrastructure systems their parents built while voting to cut their capitol gains taxes. They liked disco. All-in-all the boomers suffered less, demanded more, blamed the government, and kicked the can down the road.  Oh, and who was the demographic who voted most heavily for DJT?  not milllennials or GenXrs, but boomers.

ah, let the hateful responses come raining down!

Can't argue . . . that's a pretty legit complaint.

dividendman

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #63 on: August 18, 2017, 02:47:04 PM »
At the risk of pissing off ~1/3 of this forum, I'm going to say that the Baby Boomers are the biggest complainers of any generation.  They stumbled into the arguably the most stable 50 year economic period in history, missed out on the horrors of WWII thanks to their parents, and reaped all of the post-war rewards. To be fair they had Vietnam and the cold war but they were mostly kids during the civil rights movement. In the 1970s it was the boomers (in their late teens and 20s) who partook in the sexual and drug revolutions. By the 80s they were the dominant generation in business, politics and society. what did they do?  Over the next few decades they drove the debt-to-GDP to their highest levels in a non-wartime environment and started the whole 'no-more-taxes' movement.  More recently they've been the group most responsible for increasing the entitlement network for seniors (a demographic they are quickly moving into).  Under this generation the opinion on the federal government has gone from something we are apart of and actively foster to some seperate, almost evil entity that stifles growth, steals our money, is inherently corrupt and must be reduced at all costs ("drown it in a bathtub!"). They deferred maintenance on the bridges and infrastructure systems their parents built while voting to cut their capitol gains taxes. They liked disco. All-in-all the boomers suffered less, demanded more, blamed the government, and kicked the can down the road.  Oh, and who was the demographic who voted most heavily for DJT?  not milllennials or GenXrs, but boomers.

ah, let the hateful responses come raining down!

Can't argue . . . that's a pretty legit complaint.

Pretty much no contest that the greatest generation (WWII) gave birth to the worst one.

infogoon

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #64 on: August 18, 2017, 02:54:50 PM »
Is there anything that those damned millenials won't ruin?  :P

Have you seen what they're doing to the Confederate statue industry?

sol

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #65 on: August 18, 2017, 02:57:44 PM »
What if "my values" tell me to buy an $800 blender?
If your values really and truly tell you to buy it then yes, it is mustachian.


Miss Piggy

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #66 on: August 18, 2017, 03:01:19 PM »
Is there anything that those damned millenials won't ruin?  :P

Have you seen what they're doing to the Confederate statue industry?

LOL. Wait...I mean...not in an actual LOL kind of way, but...

You know what, never mind. I'm just going to shut up.

SoftwareGoddess

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #67 on: August 18, 2017, 03:28:48 PM »
At the risk of pissing off ~1/3 of this forum, I'm going to say that the Baby Boomers are the biggest complainers of any generation.  They stumbled into the arguably the most stable 50 year economic period in history, missed out on the horrors of WWII thanks to their parents, and reaped all of the post-war rewards. To be fair they had Vietnam and the cold war but they were mostly kids during the civil rights movement. In the 1970s it was the boomers (in their late teens and 20s) who partook in the sexual and drug revolutions. By the 80s they were the dominant generation in business, politics and society. what did they do?  Over the next few decades they drove the debt-to-GDP to their highest levels in a non-wartime environment and started the whole 'no-more-taxes' movement.  More recently they've been the group most responsible for increasing the entitlement network for seniors (a demographic they are quickly moving into).  Under this generation the opinion on the federal government has gone from something we are apart of and actively foster to some seperate, almost evil entity that stifles growth, steals our money, is inherently corrupt and must be reduced at all costs ("drown it in a bathtub!"). They deferred maintenance on the bridges and infrastructure systems their parents built while voting to cut their capitol gains taxes. They liked disco. All-in-all the boomers suffered less, demanded more, blamed the government, and kicked the can down the road.  Oh, and who was the demographic who voted most heavily for DJT?  not milllennials or GenXrs, but boomers.

ah, let the hateful responses come raining down!

Can't argue . . . that's a pretty legit complaint.

Pretty much no contest that the greatest generation (WWII) gave birth to the worst one.

You mean the Silent Generation? They are the parents of the Boomers.
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BlueMR2

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #68 on: August 18, 2017, 03:33:40 PM »
Bear in mind that since the forums started, the stock market has gone up and unemployment has gone down.  I'm guessing that people in general may be feeling more wealthy and relaxed about their spending as a result.  When the next recession rolls around, I suspect the tone will change and posters will be more motivated to cut spending.

I personally caved and bought myself a birthday present I'd been wanting for year as both our jobs looked solid, economy seems to be doing well, etc.  Barely 2 weeks later and my wife is out of work again...  The tide can change right quick.  While a lot of people are working, it's a different world.  My wife hasn't been able to find a "real" full-time benefits type job at any point in the last 6 years.  Those just don't exist anymore.  If you've got one, cling to it.  What's out there that's making the unemployment numbers look good are just minimum wage part-time positions.  Keep facepunching away, we all need it!

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #69 on: August 18, 2017, 03:54:15 PM »
The guys who tried to killed government weren't the Boomers, it was the GI generation.

Here's the guys who were running the show in the 1980s:
Reagan: 1911
HW Bush: 1924
Tip ONeill: 1912
Milton Young: 1897 (!!!!)
Mondale: 1928
Strom Thurmond: 1902

Roger Smith of Michael Moore's "Roger and Me" fame was born in 1924. Jack Welch was born 1935 (silent, not a Boomer).



Baby Boomers only really start running the show in the 90s, and even then, only a small part. I'd say even today you're still looking at the full influence of the Baby Boomers in their 50s and 60s...and even that might be questionable. For instance, Sonia Sotomayor and Elena Kagan are both Baby Boomers, just recently appointed. Roberts and Alito are both Baby Boomers. Thomas is an early boomer, so I don't think that Baby Boomers were a majority until Kagan was appointed.


Takes a long time to take over power.


nereo

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #70 on: August 18, 2017, 04:01:33 PM »
At the risk of pissing off ~1/3 of this forum, I'm going to say that the Baby Boomers are the biggest complainers of any generation.  They stumbled into the arguably the most stable 50 year economic period in history, missed out on the horrors of WWII thanks to their parents, and reaped all of the post-war rewards. To be fair they had Vietnam and the cold war but they were mostly kids during the civil rights movement. In the 1970s it was the boomers (in their late teens and 20s) who partook in the sexual and drug revolutions. By the 80s they were the dominant generation in business, politics and society. what did they do?  Over the next few decades they drove the debt-to-GDP to their highest levels in a non-wartime environment and started the whole 'no-more-taxes' movement.  More recently they've been the group most responsible for increasing the entitlement network for seniors (a demographic they are quickly moving into).  Under this generation the opinion on the federal government has gone from something we are apart of and actively foster to some seperate, almost evil entity that stifles growth, steals our money, is inherently corrupt and must be reduced at all costs ("drown it in a bathtub!"). They deferred maintenance on the bridges and infrastructure systems their parents built while voting to cut their capitol gains taxes. They liked disco. All-in-all the boomers suffered less, demanded more, blamed the government, and kicked the can down the road.  Oh, and who was the demographic who voted most heavily for DJT?  not milllennials or GenXrs, but boomers.

ah, let the hateful responses come raining down!

Can't argue . . . that's a pretty legit complaint.

Pretty much no contest that the greatest generation (WWII) gave birth to the worst one.

You mean the Silent Generation? They are the parents of the Boomers.

Yeah... the "Greatest generation" (also called the GI Generation) were born between 1910-1924 and were the ones fighting WWII.  But they were the ones that gave birth to the first wave of the Baby Boomers.  They also lived through the great depression.

The "Silent Generation" were those that were born around the 1930s and early 40s.  The Silent Generation were alive during WWII but largely missed fighting in it because they were too young. They also missed or were too young to really remember the depression. 

Boomers were those that were born immediately after WWII through the 1950s. Older boomers had parents that were part of the Greatest Generation.  Younger boomers have parents that are from the Silent Generation.

...at least that's what Mr Google tells me.
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GenXbiker

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #71 on: August 18, 2017, 05:32:47 PM »
Or maybe every generation gets to be the scapegoat, in their turn.

Nope!  It's either the baby boomers or the millennials, sometimes GenY.  Us GenX'ers got it right. 


Agreed.  The millennials are much worse than the boomers I know.

Fire2025

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #72 on: August 18, 2017, 06:02:14 PM »
Or maybe every generation gets to be the scapegoat, in their turn.

Nope!  It's either the baby boomers or the millennials, sometimes GenY.  Us GenX'ers got it right. 


Agreed.  The millennials are much worse than the boomers I know.

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Gondolin

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #73 on: August 18, 2017, 09:04:30 PM »
Quote
star belly sneetches are the best sneetches
Preach!
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marty998

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #74 on: August 18, 2017, 09:10:59 PM »
The car ones seem to touch a nerve. Earlier in the year a poster was complaining about there being no parking within a block of the school, or there being a car pick up line half a mile long.

After suggesting she park a block away and walk, I recall copping an earful in response   :(

I am happy to keep calling out inappropriate behaviour such as ridiculous blenders when I see it (I missed that thread too!). Also happy that we have people like Laura S and Frankies Girl who tear case studies to shreds every now and again.

Dicey

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #75 on: August 18, 2017, 11:49:21 PM »
But the forums haven't just drifted from the money aspect. I feel like a great deal of people don't fully understand Mustachianism at this point. It's not just about MONEY.

It's also about minimalism, stoicism, being environmentally and socially responsible. I feel a lot of these tenets have lost their fervor on the forums, especially in the past year.
+1 to this. I've seen so many times lately that if you can afford it and it makes you happy then it is okay. Minimalism, stoicism, environmental and social responsibility, frugality, badassity, etc. don't seem to matter.  I'm glad I'm not the only one who has noticed the trend.
I'm raising my guilty little hand here, but for a completely different reason. I got to FIRE! I made it! Now that I've hit the target (and then some) I'm having a blast knowing I've saved enough and I don't have to save any more and I'll be fine forever. Holy Mother of God, how did that happen? As long as I don't overspend to ridiculous extremes, I'll be fine. I have no desire for an $800 blender, but if I did, I could buy it with nary a ripple in my finances. (Whoa, even typing that is hard. True, but hard.) If I can't buy what I want occasionally, what the fuck did I work so hard to get to FIRE for?

Maybe instead of accusing people of being soft, you might consider that what they have actually been is successful. This shit works, man.

Speaking of social responsibility, FIRE has allowed me even more time to volunteer, and more money to share with the causes I care about. DH and I joke that we tithe to our community, and then some. Yeah, that alone was worth all the years of sacrifice.
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mcampbell

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #76 on: August 19, 2017, 06:30:41 AM »
I think a very long bull run has made a lot of people more rich then they thought, so more soft. If we see a bear market for a year or two, or god forbid a crash. I think you'll see this community quicker get more stoic

Ocinfo

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #77 on: August 19, 2017, 06:58:15 AM »
I think a very long bull run has made a lot of people more rich then they thought, so more soft. If we see a bear market for a year or two, or god forbid a crash. I think you'll see this community quicker get more stoic

Was going to post this very thing. We've had 8 years of very easy money making with only a few slight pauses. I've started seeing/hearing lots of positive thoughts on the economy from regular people, which likely means we're already past the peak for this cycle***

***not market timing advice, which I don't do, just anecdotal observation.


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dividendman

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #78 on: August 19, 2017, 07:19:01 AM »
If I can't buy what I want occasionally, what the fuck did I work so hard to get to FIRE for?


I think that for most of the "original" mustachians the goal was never to accumulate money and FIRE so that you can then acquire items that you have been pining for and can now buy since you have great wealth. I think the goal was to acquire time that you may spend as you please on experiences that will enrich your life.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #79 on: August 19, 2017, 07:51:25 AM »
This has been fun to read.  Boomer here, so was already close to retirement when I found the blog. 

Boomers are as variable as any other age group, for money, social attitudes, etc.   And for you young'uns, we also lived through times of high unemployment (why do you think so many of us went to grad school?), massive high interest rates (19% mortgages) when personal finance books had mortgage tables that started at 7% - and they needed mortgage tables because there were no personal computers to do the math for you.  The internet has made a huge difference, there was no easy access to the stock market (financial advisors and your bank were the gatekeepers), mutual funds were rare.

BTW, people were complaining at least 3 years ago that the forums were getting soft.

Also btw, while I am being a grouchy older lady, Americans (largest single group on this forum) complain like mad about health insurance costs, but the rest of their COL is so low compared to many other places (Canada, the UK and Australia come to mind) that if they are making a decent salary they should have the money for premiums.  And of course we pay for our health care, the premiums are part of our taxes.  We look at things like  house prices, food costs, electricity, etc., convert it into our currency, and gasp at how low they are!
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nereo

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #80 on: August 19, 2017, 08:07:33 AM »
I was in a combative mood yesterday, partly for reasons I reference in my journal.
Of course there are some great Boomers, and my comments referenced more those from the US.  That block has been the most vocal for slashing their taxes that it just makes me sick sometime.  I do find the attitudes towards taxation more sane here in Canada.  The other day I heard one politician here mention tacitly mention the need for balancing new taxes with smarter use of public funds... an he was a conservative.  Such a statement would get you tarred and feathered int he GOP. And of course there are lots of Boomer heros, my parents among them (immigrants who built very good lives for themselves  and their children while becoming bedrocks of their community).
And yes, having lived outside the US it still shocks me how low prices are in the US on everything from food to electronics.

Mostly I get tired of the reflexive blaming and hating on Millennials and Xers (full disclosure - I straddle that line). Its hard for me to stomach the rhetoric around the tea party and neo-cons and not think this benefits the most affluent generation in history potentially at the expense of everyone after them.
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RetiredAt63

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #81 on: August 19, 2017, 08:56:35 AM »

Mostly I get tired of the reflexive blaming and hating on Millennials and Xers (full disclosure - I straddle that line).

I have trouble keeping the labels straight.  I have had wonderful students my whole time in teaching, and I have had entitled slackers over the same time span.  Of course people are affected by the times in which they live.  If there is a weakness in the younger generations (simply because they haven't lived that long) it is that they have no gut feel for recent history.  They can't conceive of mortgage rates at 19%, for example, or really understand that there was life before computers.

I am reminded of a story in Heinlein's biography - for one of his earlier juvenile books he and his wife got sheets of brown paper and got down on the floor and plotted trajectories.  When he told this to a young fan, the young fan (Ph. D. but a lot younger than Heinlein) asked why he didn't just plot it on his PC.  Heinlein had to reply that there were no PCs when he was writing that book (at that point I think they were at Eniac) and the fan was just totally floored - no PCs in existence was just not part of his world concept.
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GenXbiker

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #82 on: August 19, 2017, 09:24:59 AM »
Also btw, while I am being a grouchy older lady, Americans (largest single group on this forum) complain like mad about health insurance costs, but the rest of their COL is so low compared to many other places (Canada, the UK and Australia come to mind) that if they are making a decent salary they should have the money for premiums.  And of course we pay for our health care, the premiums are part of our taxes.  We look at things like  house prices, food costs, electricity, etc., convert it into our currency, and gasp at how low they are!
A while back, someone from Canada asked what taxes were for someone in U.S. making $100K/yr. to see how much more he was paying for taxes in Canada.  As it turned out, he was paying much LESS in taxes.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/what-i-learned-about-myself-politics-and-those-on-the-other-side/msg1630240/#msg1630240

It looks like the property tax rate is lower in Canada than here as well.

Zikoris

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #83 on: August 19, 2017, 10:07:00 AM »
If I can't buy what I want occasionally, what the fuck did I work so hard to get to FIRE for?


I think that for most of the "original" mustachians the goal was never to accumulate money and FIRE so that you can then acquire items that you have been pining for and can now buy since you have great wealth. I think the goal was to acquire time that you may spend as you please on experiences that will enrich your life.

Not to mention, the goal is to correct your thinking to the point that you don't WANT excessive consumption, and are happy with what you have. If getting to FIRE was an arduous, deprivation-filled process, you basically missed the entire point of the thing, which is to live your ideal lifestyle both before and after.
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FINate

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #84 on: August 19, 2017, 10:12:08 AM »
Also btw, while I am being a grouchy older lady, Americans (largest single group on this forum) complain like mad about health insurance costs, but the rest of their COL is so low compared to many other places (Canada, the UK and Australia come to mind) that if they are making a decent salary they should have the money for premiums.  And of course we pay for our health care, the premiums are part of our taxes.  We look at things like  house prices, food costs, electricity, etc., convert it into our currency, and gasp at how low they are!
A while back, someone from Canada asked what taxes were for someone in U.S. making $100K/yr. to see how much more he was paying for taxes in Canada.  As it turned out, he was paying much LESS in taxes.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/what-i-learned-about-myself-politics-and-those-on-the-other-side/msg1630240/#msg1630240

It looks like the property tax rate is lower in Canada than here as well.

Total taxes while I was in Germany were about the same as in California (state + fed).*

Didn't mind paying DE taxes because: clean parks, functioning transit, well maintained roads, low crime, great schools, strong social safety net. A paragon of good governance.

I despise paying US/California taxes. Not because I want to "starve the beast," but because it's so damn wasteful and we get so little value. Roads (and other infrastructure) go unmaintained such that they become much more expensive to repair. Our schools are terrible (we could have an entire discussion about bloated administration, unreasonably high costs to build, low funding, or other potential causes). Crime is high, becoming a problem to run errands by bike because thieves cut locks (and carry bolt cutters) in broad daylight. Now our small county wants to spend $200M+ to build a rail line that, by their own estimates, will only be used by about 2000 people/day (less than 1% of the population) and run huge annual deficits (abysmally low farebox recovery rate of 9-22%) while our road network already has a backlog of over $150M in deferred maintenance and long stretches are almost unrideable by bike.

* Likely due to high income at the time. Now with lower income I probably pay less in California, which may partially explain the difference in services. DE has a broader tax base whereas California relies heavily on high earners because Californians love taxes...but only if the tax is on someone else.

Dicey

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #85 on: August 19, 2017, 10:15:50 AM »
If I can't buy what I want occasionally, what the fuck did I work so hard to get to FIRE for?
I think that for most of the "original" mustachians the goal was never to accumulate money and FIRE so that you can then acquire items that you have been pining for and can now buy since you have great wealth. I think the goal was to acquire time that you may spend as you please on experiences that will enrich your life.
As one who learned of MMM pretty close to its debut, I'm going to include myself in that so-called "original" group. I was well on my way, long before personal finance blogs existed, let alone MMM.

The goal was always to acquire money, for this Mustachian anyway, because money = time = freedom. . There are plenty of people with money who don't have freedom, and plenty with time but no money. The goal is always about balance.

Now that I'm FIRE, it's surprisingly nice to be able to splash out a bit on occasion. It doesn't make me any less of a Mustachian.

And I never really pined for anything material. If I wanted something enough to deploy green soldiers, I figured out how to attain the goal by expending as few troops as possible. That's Badass and Mustachian.
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Spork

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #86 on: August 19, 2017, 10:16:51 AM »
If I can't buy what I want occasionally, what the fuck did I work so hard to get to FIRE for?


I think that for most of the "original" mustachians the goal was never to accumulate money and FIRE so that you can then acquire items that you have been pining for and can now buy since you have great wealth. I think the goal was to acquire time that you may spend as you please on experiences that will enrich your life.

Not to mention, the goal is to correct your thinking to the point that you don't WANT excessive consumption, and are happy with what you have. If getting to FIRE was an arduous, deprivation-filled process, you basically missed the entire point of the thing, which is to live your ideal lifestyle both before and after.

Admittedly, I've always been "less badass" than most Mustacians.  I retired "late" at 52 and with higher expenses than the badasses.  I did this knowingly and I'm okay with it.  That said, my "ideal lifestyle" was to have time to do hobbies like tinkering with old machines, wood working, learning to weld (or learning to weld well), etc.  These are things that take money.  Before I didn't have the time.  Now I do.  And it costs me a little more money.  And I'm cool with that.
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ender

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #87 on: August 19, 2017, 10:23:15 AM »
I don't really post much here anymore either.

Over the past years it has increasingly felt like an echo chamber where the goal is patting each other on the back for not being like "those people" yet being nearly just like those people.

jim555

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #88 on: August 19, 2017, 10:40:24 AM »
Millennials are too soft and pampered to give up the Starbucks and avocado toast to become a legendary MMM/ERE rockstar. 

solon

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #89 on: August 19, 2017, 10:55:47 AM »
What I've noticed on these forums is the formula, "Thing One is crazy. I would never do anything like that. Instead I do Thing Two, which is just half a notch down from that. Which is totally different and makes me a badass." I see this formula over and over and over. People can - and do - rationalize away anything.

FINate

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #90 on: August 19, 2017, 11:00:26 AM »
It's worth pointing out that MMM himself, the original mustachian:
  • Travels for fun: Look up how much fuel is consumed flying round trip to Hawaii, South America or cross country.
  • Drinks beer: Energy and water intensive.
  • Enjoys marijuana: Also energy and water intensive.
  • Owns a smartphone
These are all luxuries and the environment would be better off without them. Just to be clear, I'm not ragging on MMM for these. He doesn't commute and gets around mostly by bike so his carbon footprint is tiny compared to most. And he's not a consumer sucka, does not mindlessly try to fill a void by buying shit he doesn't need. He does these in moderation, and he's not in debt and already FIRE. So the money aspect matters quite a bit.

Is a $800 blender worth it? If you're in debt and/or still working towards FIRE? No! After FIRE I think it depends. I have no idea what could make a blender cost $800 but if you'll use it a lot and it does something no other blender can and you can't find it used and you can easily afford it and you're not buying stuff just for the sake of buying stuff, then fine. How is that any different from enjoying some MJ or jetting off somewhere?

ender

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #91 on: August 19, 2017, 11:39:39 AM »
He doesn't commute and gets around mostly by bike so his carbon footprint is tiny compared to most.

International flights have a very significant carbon footprint.

Both jet fuel and car gas have similar carbon/gallon emissions (jet fuel is slightly higher). Airlines naturally do get better per/mile gas mileage, but an international flight (say Boulder CO to Rio) is about 12000 miles worth of miles round trip, give or take a few connections.

Airliners get ~80ish MPG per passenger, so that flight is the equivalent to driving nearly 5000 miles in a car getting mileage in the low 30s.

That means someone taking a couple international flights easily has a higher carbon impact from their traveling than someone driving a considerable length. This is particularly worse if you have multiple people fly, as the airline MPG is per passenger, so if you take 2 people on that international flight you've just racked up nearly 10k "road miles" worth of travel.




SpreadsheetMan

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #92 on: August 19, 2017, 01:42:27 PM »
He doesn't commute and gets around mostly by bike so his carbon footprint is tiny compared to most.

International flights have a very significant carbon footprint.

Both jet fuel and car gas have similar carbon/gallon emissions (jet fuel is slightly higher). Airlines naturally do get better per/mile gas mileage, but an international flight (say Boulder CO to Rio) is about 12000 miles worth of miles round trip, give or take a few connections.

Airliners get ~80ish MPG per passenger, so that flight is the equivalent to driving nearly 5000 miles in a car getting mileage in the low 30s.

That means someone taking a couple international flights easily has a higher carbon impact from their traveling than someone driving a considerable length. This is particularly worse if you have multiple people fly, as the airline MPG is per passenger, so if you take 2 people on that international flight you've just racked up nearly 10k "road miles" worth of travel.

This. I've never understood the free pass for extensive international travel that people get on this forum when it should really receive a massive face-punch.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #93 on: August 19, 2017, 02:04:20 PM »
Also btw, while I am being a grouchy older lady, Americans (largest single group on this forum) complain like mad about health insurance costs, but the rest of their COL is so low compared to many other places (Canada, the UK and Australia come to mind) that if they are making a decent salary they should have the money for premiums.  And of course we pay for our health care, the premiums are part of our taxes.  We look at things like  house prices, food costs, electricity, etc., convert it into our currency, and gasp at how low they are!
A while back, someone from Canada asked what taxes were for someone in U.S. making $100K/yr. to see how much more he was paying for taxes in Canada.  As it turned out, he was paying much LESS in taxes.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/what-i-learned-about-myself-politics-and-those-on-the-other-side/msg1630240/#msg1630240

It looks like the property tax rate is lower in Canada than here as well.

Federal tax is consistent, provincial taxes vary. Property tax is municipal, so tax rates can vary widely.  There is also school board tax to consider, varies by province.
The measure of civilization is how people treat one another.

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FINate

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #94 on: August 19, 2017, 02:07:41 PM »
He doesn't commute and gets around mostly by bike so his carbon footprint is tiny compared to most.

International flights have a very significant carbon footprint.

Both jet fuel and car gas have similar carbon/gallon emissions (jet fuel is slightly higher). Airlines naturally do get better per/mile gas mileage, but an international flight (say Boulder CO to Rio) is about 12000 miles worth of miles round trip, give or take a few connections.

Airliners get ~80ish MPG per passenger, so that flight is the equivalent to driving nearly 5000 miles in a car getting mileage in the low 30s.

That means someone taking a couple international flights easily has a higher carbon impact from their traveling than someone driving a considerable length. This is particularly worse if you have multiple people fly, as the airline MPG is per passenger, so if you take 2 people on that international flight you've just racked up nearly 10k "road miles" worth of travel.

This. I've never understood the free pass for extensive international travel that people get on this forum when it should really receive a massive face-punch.

Fair enough. Perhaps "tiny" is too strong. Maybe "significantly less" is a more accurate term. Let's go with the 10k road miles estimate. A household with two commuters can easily rack up 30k to 40k miles commuting. Then, like MMM, they fly somewhere for vacation and/or to see family a couple times a year. Then they are buying copious amounts of stuff Made in China - not sure how to quantify the carbon footprint of plastic goods that get shipped halfway around the world, but it's significant. Guesstimating that a typical household "road miles" equivalent is 40k to 50k, or even higher.  So MMM's footprint is maybe 1/4 or 1/5 the average person?

In any case, my point was really that I don't think MMM is first and foremost about environmentalism (AFAICT Pete's primary motivation was freedom/FI).

And yes, it's inconsistent to laud international travel as something virtuous while scolding people for lesser sins.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #95 on: August 19, 2017, 02:21:56 PM »
This forum has indeed gotten very strange. I just got yelled at for explaining to someone that there are free repair instructions online so they don't need to throw away their cell phone when the internal battery stops holding charge.

wenchsenior

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #96 on: August 19, 2017, 04:34:06 PM »
I've been  hanging around maybe 4 or 5 years, and the main thing I am always surprised by is how many gearhead types there are on here.  Lots and lots of talk about cars and how great they are, which confuses me a little.  But I'm not sure that's changed in the time I've been here.

Financial.Velociraptor

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #97 on: August 19, 2017, 05:15:05 PM »
the post-FIRE board has always been pretty solid.  There is still whining but it is the whining of people undergoing existential crisis because they have to redefine who they consider themselves to be.
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RetiredAt63

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #98 on: August 19, 2017, 05:33:14 PM »
the post-FIRE board has always been pretty solid.  There is still whining but it is the whining of people undergoing existential crisis because they have to redefine who they consider themselves to be.

I don't go there much because I have imposter syndrome - not really an RE.  Actually I liked my job enough that I stayed for 3 more years than I had to.  Blasphemy on this forum.  ;-)   Or SWAMI.
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Gin1984

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #99 on: August 19, 2017, 07:53:01 PM »
This has been fun to read.  Boomer here, so was already close to retirement when I found the blog. 

Boomers are as variable as any other age group, for money, social attitudes, etc.   And for you young'uns, we also lived through times of high unemployment (why do you think so many of us went to grad school?), massive high interest rates (19% mortgages) when personal finance books had mortgage tables that started at 7% - and they needed mortgage tables because there were no personal computers to do the math for you.  The internet has made a huge difference, there was no easy access to the stock market (financial advisors and your bank were the gatekeepers), mutual funds were rare.

BTW, people were complaining at least 3 years ago that the forums were getting soft.

Also btw, while I am being a grouchy older lady, Americans (largest single group on this forum) complain like mad about health insurance costs, but the rest of their COL is so low compared to many other places (Canada, the UK and Australia come to mind) that if they are making a decent salary they should have the money for premiums.  And of course we pay for our health care, the premiums are part of our taxes.  We look at things like  house prices, food costs, electricity, etc., convert it into our currency, and gasp at how low they are!
Until the ACA, there were people who could not get insurance for any sum of money, no matter how much they were willing to pay.