Author Topic: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?  (Read 59794 times)

Rufus.T.Firefly

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #200 on: August 23, 2017, 12:42:05 PM »
This thread was fun up until this past page...
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PoutineLover

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #201 on: August 23, 2017, 12:48:20 PM »

 "Patriotism" is my favorite example, because we all recognize it as a primary driver of human history, and yet it only exists within human culture.  It's an idea, not a real physical thing, but it's a powerful and consequential idea full of beauty and also the potential seeds of conflict.

This is a statement/idea which I've been thinking about lately. I consider "Patriotism" the same as "Religionism" where all they do is separate us from one another. "We" becomes "Us" and "Them".

This idea of "my people, my country, my religion", leads to seeing others as different and therefore "less than". This starts from birth and it is ingrained in our everyday lives.

On the other hand, the idea of inclusivity is forced out of humans by ignorant people in control and we end up killing/hating each other because of it.

I'm happy to live in the US, a free country. But I don't think/judge myself better than people from other countries, considering I wasn't born in the US.
I've seen some interesting articles that say humans only have the capacity to care about a limited number of people (~150), and generally those people come from our "tribe" whether that's religion, country, race, whatever. It's a helpful trait in terms of keeping your own people alive, but anyone outside is considered "other" and is therefore competing for limited resources and must be kept away, killed or at least not shared with, since it would endanger "our" survival. In our super connected and rich world we'd hope that people would become more generous and inclusive, but somehow we seem to be amplifying and reinforcing these tribal differences instead.

SoundFuture

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #202 on: August 23, 2017, 12:50:03 PM »
This thread was fun up until this past page...
Agreed. 

solon

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #203 on: August 23, 2017, 12:51:02 PM »
This thread was fun up until this past page...
Agreed.

The worst part? I can't get it out of my Unread Replies list.

fluffmuffin

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #204 on: August 23, 2017, 12:58:06 PM »
Is there no way to mute threads? Happy that folks are having a deep conversation but not really here for this. Anyone talking religion open to moving the convo over to a new thread in Off Topic?

GenXbiker

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #205 on: August 23, 2017, 12:58:54 PM »
Huh, interesting POV. The more I learn about the universe - the immensity, intricacy, elegance, and beauty - the more my faith is strengthened. From my perspective, God revealed himself to humanity through ways in which they could understand at the time. It would be overwhelming gibberish if Moses wrote about atoms or quarks or DNA way back in the day.

More power to you.  I would like to see more of that and less of the negativity around here.

craiglepaige

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #206 on: August 23, 2017, 01:03:30 PM »

 "Patriotism" is my favorite example, because we all recognize it as a primary driver of human history, and yet it only exists within human culture.  It's an idea, not a real physical thing, but it's a powerful and consequential idea full of beauty and also the potential seeds of conflict.

This is a statement/idea which I've been thinking about lately. I consider "Patriotism" the same as "Religionism" where all they do is separate us from one another. "We" becomes "Us" and "Them".

This idea of "my people, my country, my religion", leads to seeing others as different and therefore "less than". This starts from birth and it is ingrained in our everyday lives.

On the other hand, the idea of inclusivity is forced out of humans by ignorant people in control and we end up killing/hating each other because of it.

I'm happy to live in the US, a free country. But I don't think/judge myself better than people from other countries, considering I wasn't born in the US.
I've seen some interesting articles that say humans only have the capacity to care about a limited number of people (~150), and generally those people come from our "tribe" whether that's religion, country, race, whatever. It's a helpful trait in terms of keeping your own people alive, but anyone outside is considered "other" and is therefore competing for limited resources and must be kept away, killed or at least not shared with, since it would endanger "our" survival. In our super connected and rich world we'd hope that people would become more generous and inclusive, but somehow we seem to be amplifying and reinforcing these tribal differences instead.

I haven't seen/read those. Thanks for the info I'll Google them

One of the weird examples of this separatism is when something horrible happens and lives are lost. Our news outlets quickly point out how many Americans were involved or if none were, as if those deaths are more important.

You always hear the newscaster with a normal voice, "The attack in so and so took twenty two lives, (Here comes the change in tone) and four of them are believed to be Americans". So what about the other 18, do they not count?

Sorry for the deviation in the thread. Maybe I'll start one talking about inclusivity/separatism.
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caracarn

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #207 on: August 23, 2017, 01:17:28 PM »

 "Patriotism" is my favorite example, because we all recognize it as a primary driver of human history, and yet it only exists within human culture.  It's an idea, not a real physical thing, but it's a powerful and consequential idea full of beauty and also the potential seeds of conflict.

This is a statement/idea which I've been thinking about lately. I consider "Patriotism" the same as "Religionism" where all they do is separate us from one another. "We" becomes "Us" and "Them".

This idea of "my people, my country, my religion", leads to seeing others as different and therefore "less than". This starts from birth and it is ingrained in our everyday lives.

On the other hand, the idea of inclusivity is forced out of humans by ignorant people in control and we end up killing/hating each other because of it.

I'm happy to live in the US, a free country. But I don't think/judge myself better than people from other countries, considering I wasn't born in the US.
I've seen some interesting articles that say humans only have the capacity to care about a limited number of people (~150), and generally those people come from our "tribe" whether that's religion, country, race, whatever. It's a helpful trait in terms of keeping your own people alive, but anyone outside is considered "other" and is therefore competing for limited resources and must be kept away, killed or at least not shared with, since it would endanger "our" survival. In our super connected and rich world we'd hope that people would become more generous and inclusive, but somehow we seem to be amplifying and reinforcing these tribal differences instead.

I haven't seen/read those. Thanks for the info I'll Google them

One of the weird examples of this separatism is when something horrible happens and lives are lost. Our news outlets quickly point out how many Americans were involved or if none were, as if those deaths are more important.

You always hear the newscaster with a normal voice, "The attack in so and so took twenty two lives, (Here comes the change in tone) and four of them are believed to be Americans". So what about the other 18, do they not count?

Sorry for the deviation in the thread. Maybe I'll start one talking about inclusivity/separatism.
They count but not as much as people we associate with.  If I hear someone got cancer in my office and has six months to live I'm certainly sorry it happened, but I will not go home and be overwhelmed by grief the same way I would if I heard that my child was the one with that prognosis.

People who live close to us are more like us and more connected.  If we were too deviant we'd not get along and one of us would move.  I have more in common with Americans (being from here) than I do with Chinese, or Israelis.  The culture they live in is different and therefore they will care more or less about different things.  So sure, the news organizations understand that people will perk up their hearing when they hear an American was involved because now I have a connection, albeit, a small one where just moments before I had an even smaller one (being a human).

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #208 on: August 23, 2017, 01:18:52 PM »
One of the weird examples of this separatism is when something horrible happens and lives are lost. Our news outlets quickly point out how many Americans were involved or if none were, as if those deaths are more important.

You always hear the newscaster with a normal voice, "The attack in so and so took twenty two lives, (Here comes the change in tone) and four of them are believed to be Americans". So what about the other 18, do they not count?

Sorry for the deviation in the thread. Maybe I'll start one talking about inclusivity/separatism.
This has always driven me crazy.  I'm as patriotic as the next liberal millennial ruining America, and I get that if there was something like a hostage situation, Americans involved would be "our problem" as a country to help solve (as the country/government's duty is to its people).  But in the face of tragedy, "these 20 people died but these four in particular you should feel sad for despite " really rubs me the wrong way.  The same concept made in uncomfortable in church when I was a kid (apathetic atheist now but grew up in a "casually religious" household): the pastor would pray and first say something generic and wholesome like "Help all those in need and suffering," but then annotate it with "especially Bob, Jane, and Bill" (those being specific "written-in entries" of loved ones of members of the church or whatever).  Feel compassion for those members of your "tribe" but implying that they're cosmically more important than the rest of humanity?  It just feels wrong.

GenXbiker

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #209 on: August 23, 2017, 01:27:55 PM »
One of the weird examples of this separatism is when something horrible happens and lives are lost. Our news outlets quickly point out how many Americans were involved or if none were, as if those deaths are more important.

You always hear the newscaster with a normal voice, "The attack in so and so took twenty two lives, (Here comes the change in tone) and four of them are believed to be Americans". So what about the other 18, do they not count?


Providing this information in a new story seem very relevant.  I haven't heard anyone imply that the other lives weren't important.   Whenever I hear about a terrorist attack overseas, one of my first thoughts is whether any Americans were killed.  But, even if there are no Americans killed, it doesn't change my feelings about the tragedy.

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #210 on: August 23, 2017, 01:34:55 PM »
Quote
In our super connected and rich world we'd hope that people would become more generous and inclusive, but somehow we seem to be amplifying and reinforcing these tribal differences instead

Turns out technologically driven social change is moving way faster than human cultural evolution can adapt.
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caracarn

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #211 on: August 23, 2017, 01:51:00 PM »
Quote
In our super connected and rich world we'd hope that people would become more generous and inclusive, but somehow we seem to be amplifying and reinforcing these tribal differences instead

Turns out technologically driven social change is moving way faster than human cultural evolution can adapt.
Without technology it was much more difficult to know about anything that was happening of even know that there were different tribes they were happening to.  I do not feel that because I hear about something I need to care about it and assuming our culture is not evolving if we do not do that is a bridge too far in my opinion.  We all have only so much energy, including for compassion and empathy, and like it or not we will care more about those similar to us that different.  You see it in animals too.  More intelligent species will at times have other mothers care for babies that are not theirs, but they have not suddenly developed empathy, they just understand that baby is still part of their group, but if that baby is from a pack on the other side of the savanna you can bet they'll eat it for food versus taking care of it.  It's funny how we like to think we are going to behave differently just because it makes us feel nice to think we should.  Deep down we've got animal instincts just like every other living organism, we can suppress them and join up and sing kumbaya, but that does not change the instincts. 

Dabnasty

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #212 on: August 23, 2017, 02:14:27 PM »
Quote
In our super connected and rich world we'd hope that people would become more generous and inclusive, but somehow we seem to be amplifying and reinforcing these tribal differences instead

Turns out technologically driven social change is moving way faster than human cultural evolution can adapt.
Without technology it was much more difficult to know about anything that was happening of even know that there were different tribes they were happening to.  I do not feel that because I hear about something I need to care about it and assuming our culture is not evolving if we do not do that is a bridge too far in my opinion.  We all have only so much energy, including for compassion and empathy, and like it or not we will care more about those similar to us that different.  You see it in animals too.  More intelligent species will at times have other mothers care for babies that are not theirs, but they have not suddenly developed empathy, they just understand that baby is still part of their group, but if that baby is from a pack on the other side of the savanna you can bet they'll eat it for food versus taking care of it.  It's funny how we like to think we are going to behave differently just because it makes us feel nice to think we should.  Deep down we've got animal instincts just like every other living organism, we can suppress them and join up and sing kumbaya, but that does not change the instincts.
Does that mean we shouldn't even try to change our instincts?

It's also instinctual for us to consume and accumulate material possessions but denying that instinct is a big part of what this website is about.

It's also instinctual for males to produce many offspring with many partners but denying that instinct allows for more meaningful relationships and slows population growth.

I don't disagree with your original comment. I think it's worth noting that we are animals with instincts and that people aren't evil because they follow those instincts. We also can't take the time to feel compassion for everyone who dies everyday. The trouble is when our feelings lead us to believe we truly are better or more important than others and when we allow those thoughts to influence public policy.

FINate

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #213 on: August 23, 2017, 02:31:13 PM »
belief that science provides an all encompassing philosophy for describing everything, is just as much a religion as other religious beliefs.

You sound like the Trumpster equivocating about Nazi's who just committed murder by saying "on many sides" over and over again.  No.  There is no equivalence here. 

Science is not a religion, it's a method for finding facts.  It's an ever evolving process, a journey of discovery, not a fixed belief system.  Please stop conflating the issues at hand, either deliberately or accidentally.

Now who's making it personal :)

Agree, science is not religion. Scienceism, or a belief that science can empirically explain all things, that's a different story. I'm still waiting for empirical proof of what caused the big bang, and then what caused that thing, ... Another way of looking at it, what brought about energy and matter, or do we just accept that it came about from nothing, an event which itself would contradict our physical laws.

GuitarStv

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #214 on: August 23, 2017, 02:38:34 PM »
Does that mean we shouldn't even try to change our instincts?

It's not possible to change instinct, but it is possible to suppress it.


It's also instinctual for us to consume and accumulate material possessions but denying that instinct is a big part of what this website is about.

Is the behaviour of hyper-accumulation really instinctual?  My suspicion is that we've created a society where advertisers prey upon certain ancient fears/drivers to sell things to us.  I don't think that a person's default state is to wish for a large truck and a McMansion.


It's also instinctual for males to produce many offspring with many partners but denying that instinct allows for more meaningful relationships and slows population growth.

Careful here.  This is getting into normative lifestyle judgement territory.  While it's not my bag, I've been led to believe that it's possible for people with multiple partners to develop meaningful relationships.  Multiple partners don't increase population growth, unprotected sex does.

FINate

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #215 on: August 23, 2017, 02:38:47 PM »
I have no problem with science, the study of that which exists in our world and can be observed and experimented. However, what might more accurately be labled "scienceism" or a belief that science provides an all encompassing philosophy for describing everything, is just as much a religion as other religious beliefs.

I think we might actually be on the same page here then.  Yeah, stuff that doesn't exist in the real (natural) world, stuff that is unknowable (reason for existence) is completely outside of the purview of science.  Science doesn't need to explain things that don't matter.

To be clear, while I don't think science should concern itself with the unknowable, that's not the same as saying religion doesn't matter. Religious beliefs, whether scienceism/naturalism, Judeo/Christian, Eastern Philosophy or whatever the case may be, inform our deepest values and convictions. To me these things matter.

FINate

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #216 on: August 23, 2017, 02:41:51 PM »
This thread was fun up until this past page...
Agreed.

I apologize. I'll stop responding. Those who disagree with me can have the last word(s).

Gondolin

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #217 on: August 23, 2017, 02:42:20 PM »
Quote
Deep down we've got animal instincts just like every other living organism,

Ha, this was exactly my point! The "genetic" aspect of human cultural expression is largely oriented towards life 10000 years ago rather than today. While some cultural expressions have been shown to be primarily driven by environment, others - including group tribalism - appear to be genetically influenced (or at least bounded). It took tens of thousands of years for early group dynamics to develop in humans - ~100 years of globalism is not nearly long enough to change anything naturally.

Now, as our understanding of biology grows, this is the hope that we may come, by degrees, to be able to consciously compensate for these predilections and direct the growth of human culture in a cogent way. We've taken some baby steps in this direction but... We'll probably be cloning supersoldiers using a limitless energy fusion reactor before it actually happens.
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Dabnasty

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #218 on: August 23, 2017, 02:49:23 PM »
Does that mean we shouldn't even try to change our instincts?

It's not possible to change instinct, but it is possible to suppress it.


It's also instinctual for us to consume and accumulate material possessions but denying that instinct is a big part of what this website is about.

Is the behaviour of hyper-accumulation really instinctual?  My suspicion is that we've created a society where advertisers prey upon certain ancient fears/drivers to sell things to us.  I don't think that a person's default state is to wish for a large truck and a McMansion.


It's also instinctual for males to produce many offspring with many partners but denying that instinct allows for more meaningful relationships and slows population growth.

Careful here.  This is getting into normative lifestyle judgement territory.  While it's not my bag, I've been led to believe that it's possible for people with multiple partners to develop meaningful relationships.  Multiple partners don't increase population growth, unprotected sex does.
-I also said denying our instincts. You know what I mean.
-Maybe hyper-accumulation isn't instinctual but the idea still works. If advertisers are playing on fear, avoiding scary things is instinctual.
-I have no problem with polyamorism. I meant in more general terms that it's a good thing that procreation is not our primary driver.

Edit: I can already see ways to argue against myself here. The point is we suppress some of our animal instincts for the betterment of society. Can we agree on that?
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 02:54:52 PM by Dabnasty »

caracarn

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #219 on: August 23, 2017, 02:54:49 PM »
Quote
In our super connected and rich world we'd hope that people would become more generous and inclusive, but somehow we seem to be amplifying and reinforcing these tribal differences instead

Turns out technologically driven social change is moving way faster than human cultural evolution can adapt.
Without technology it was much more difficult to know about anything that was happening of even know that there were different tribes they were happening to.  I do not feel that because I hear about something I need to care about it and assuming our culture is not evolving if we do not do that is a bridge too far in my opinion.  We all have only so much energy, including for compassion and empathy, and like it or not we will care more about those similar to us that different.  You see it in animals too.  More intelligent species will at times have other mothers care for babies that are not theirs, but they have not suddenly developed empathy, they just understand that baby is still part of their group, but if that baby is from a pack on the other side of the savanna you can bet they'll eat it for food versus taking care of it.  It's funny how we like to think we are going to behave differently just because it makes us feel nice to think we should.  Deep down we've got animal instincts just like every other living organism, we can suppress them and join up and sing kumbaya, but that does not change the instincts.
The trouble is when our feelings lead us to believe we truly are better or more important than others and when we allow those thoughts to influence public policy.

Yes, that's the base of your point, and I agree.  Never said I think Americans are better, just that it's natural to care more about the group we belong to.  It does not hurt anyone to do that unless  taken to your point, so I think our thought process aligns, but perhaps you're trying to change how you feel about your caring level of another group.

avrex

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #220 on: August 23, 2017, 02:57:13 PM »
Has the MMM community gone soft?

.....I'm trying to get the 'fun' thread back on track.  :)
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Optimiser

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #221 on: August 23, 2017, 03:14:47 PM »
Has the MMM community gone soft?

.....I'm trying to get the 'fun' thread back on track.  :)

Thanks.

I was recently annoyed by the thread where someone asked if they should hire a professional to paint and caulk the trim on their one story house. So many people thought it was too dangerous or too much work to use a ladder.

marty998

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #222 on: August 23, 2017, 03:16:43 PM »
Has the MMM community gone soft?

.....I'm trying to get the 'fun' thread back on track.  :)

I hear there's a little blue pill that can fix softness...   >_<

mustachepungoeshere

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #223 on: August 23, 2017, 03:18:57 PM »
Has the MMM community gone soft?

.....I'm trying to get the 'fun' thread back on track.  :)

I hear there's a little blue pill that can fix softness...   >_<

Diamonds are anti-Mustachian, so surely blue diamonds are out. ;)

RetiredAt63

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #224 on: August 23, 2017, 03:44:36 PM »
Has the MMM community gone soft?

.....I'm trying to get the 'fun' thread back on track.  :)

I hear there's a little blue pill that can fix softness...   >_<

Diamonds are anti-Mustachian, so surely blue diamonds are out. ;)

Blue topaz?  Beautiful, good hardness, low cost.
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GuitarStv

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #225 on: August 23, 2017, 05:13:44 PM »
There's a current thread asking for advice on which expensive mattress to buy  . . . and they refuse to even try sleeping on the floor first.  Sigh.

Optimiser

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #226 on: August 23, 2017, 05:25:58 PM »
There is another one about getting a pilot's license for fun. I'm sure it is fun, but it certainly isn't mustachian.

scottish

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #227 on: August 23, 2017, 08:32:49 PM »
There's a current thread asking for advice on which expensive mattress to buy  . . . and they refuse to even try sleeping on the floor first.  Sigh.

Hmmph.   I find floors are often more comfortable than beds.

Goldielocks

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #228 on: August 23, 2017, 11:05:46 PM »
By it's very definition having any faith religion is irrational - it's the belief in something without proof.

Yeah,  isn't it amazing?!

Goldielocks

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #229 on: August 23, 2017, 11:10:38 PM »
GACK.  That link reference had someone in Canada maxing out RRSP's at $22k per year, so paying net tax on $78k, versus someone only contributing $6k to 401k on $110k.  Of course someone with 78K per year pays a lot less tax in dollars than someone earning $104k per year!!   grrr.     One pays 21 % taxes, at a lower income, and the other pays 28% taxes for a higher income.  There are many other factors that we can't see in this equation as well.

Property tax is a different situation, by city and state, (ex., NJ appears to be horrendous for taxes, overall, really) for both countries. 

The guy in the thread asked for the income taxes for someone in the U.S. with a $100K income, so I gave him the real results of someone with $110K with deductions making it about $103K of taxable income, so that was within 3% of what he was asking for.

We're second highest next to N.J.
I don't have a problem with your reply, it was actually quite generous to provide details as you did.   Just with the original poster who did not state very clearly that maxing out retirements brought his income down to around $78k,  and with the first $11k tax free, well, it was not really a full $100k taxable income..that op was asking a comparison for.

I was that poster. I assumed as mustachians that we'd be maxing out tax saving vehicles. And I did mention the reduced taxable income as clarification in a subsequent post.

Are you saying that those deductions do not exist in the States? Or that the maximums for tax savings vehicles are lower? Honest question b/c I do not know the answer.

As for the higher sales tax - that doesn't affect us as much as "regulars" since we don't by very much shit, right?

(sorry for being off-topic)

i have found that even some Canadians think that maxing out is far, far less than the total allowed to most, due to mis-understandings about  their pensions mainly...  for the US resident, similar confusion occurs (and doubly so if you are trying to think about across the border conditions). Also, the difference in SS  and medicare versus CPP, Welfare, EI, and Medical etc.  Very different systems.  SS pays out double the benefits but costs double in payments upfront...

US / Canada Comparisons   (SmartAsset.com calculator and EY tax calculator),
THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE FICA, CPP or EI Taxes paid by the employee, because these provide very real benefits in very different amounts in each country.   Assume your own USA Health care costs are still to be added... could be $300 to $1000 per month.

Just State and Federal taxes

==>  $80k family income, with one high earner, and one SAH spouse, no kids, standard deduction not itemized.
Canada, Taxes are $15.5k to $20k ;  US are $13k (Ohio, WA state is $3k less, etc.)
 ==> $100k family income, single high earner, married no kids.
Canada Taxes $17k to $22k  ;  USA $18.5k (ohio)
==>  $150k family income
Canada Taxes are $44k to $52k;  USA $34k (ohio); Wa state is $6k less...
etc.

One thing that I noted, was that in USA, there are far more possible deductions, on base taxes, too.   Canada has the ccb for kids, etc.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 11:40:00 PM by Goldielocks »

CanuckExpat

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #230 on: August 24, 2017, 12:11:40 AM »
Maybe you can start a sticky with "the original meaning of mustachianism" or something. Or an "I will tell you if you are a bad*ss" thread. I'm not being facetious and actually think something like that would be sort of fun.

Just take everything in this this thread and remove the sarcasm.
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GenXbiker

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #231 on: August 24, 2017, 04:12:54 AM »
I was that poster. I assumed as mustachians that we'd be maxing out tax saving vehicles. And I did mention the reduced taxable income as clarification in a subsequent post.

Are you saying that those deductions do not exist in the States? Or that the maximums for tax savings vehicles are lower? Honest question b/c I do not know the answer.

It would be unmustachian for me to do so.

At my age, the maximum contribution is $24,000 through my company retirement plan (401k, 403b, etc).   But the problem is that any tax savings can be eaten up quickly over a several years when your company retirement plan has high fees.  Ours used to have a 1.5% management fee on top of the fund expense ratios, which are high as well.  The management fee is half that much now, but within 5 years, a post-tax investment comes out ahead.  So I invest $6000 in the company pre-tax retirement plan to take advantage of the company match to that level, I am not qualified for a standard IRA because of my income, but I am under the threshold that allows me to invest in a Roth, so I max out $6500 there, but since it's post-tax, the contributions don't lower my tax bill.  Due to my high savings rate, most of my savings still goes to non-retirement savings in my Vanguard account.

So, for a single earner in the U.S., I'm paying about $26,000 in taxes on $103,000 adjusted gross income (before subtracting about $10,000 in additional deductions).  Then $3700 property tax, 8% to 10% sales tax, gas taxes, etc.  Health insurance is extra - I'm actually getting a great deal there with a very low deductible.

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #232 on: August 24, 2017, 08:02:00 AM »
Has the MMM community gone soft?

.....I'm trying to get the 'fun' thread back on track.  :)

I hear there's a little blue pill that can fix softness...   >_<

Diamonds are anti-Mustachian, so surely blue diamonds are out. ;)
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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #233 on: August 24, 2017, 08:24:44 AM »
I think we have a lot of people just beginning to dip their toes in Mustachianism, so they haven't fully escaped from the Consumerist Matrix yet. We need to remember that we were all at that point at one time.

There was a time when my wife suggested that we not subscribe to cable TV and I felt a panicky feeling in my chest. How were we supposed to survive without 24 hour continuous coverage of millionaires playing ball games and TV channels devoted to weddings/little people/little people getting married? It was a little scary.

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #234 on: August 24, 2017, 08:40:20 AM »
I was that poster. I assumed as mustachians that we'd be maxing out tax saving vehicles. And I did mention the reduced taxable income as clarification in a subsequent post.

Are you saying that those deductions do not exist in the States? Or that the maximums for tax savings vehicles are lower? Honest question b/c I do not know the answer.

It would be unmustachian for me to do so.

At my age, the maximum contribution is $24,000 through my company retirement plan (401k, 403b, etc).   But the problem is that any tax savings can be eaten up quickly over a several years when your company retirement plan has high fees.  Ours used to have a 1.5% management fee on top of the fund expense ratios, which are high as well.  The management fee is half that much now, but within 5 years, a post-tax investment comes out ahead.  So I invest $6000 in the company pre-tax retirement plan to take advantage of the company match to that level, I am not qualified for a standard IRA because of my income, but I am under the threshold that allows me to invest in a Roth, so I max out $6500 there, but since it's post-tax, the contributions don't lower my tax bill.  Due to my high savings rate, most of my savings still goes to non-retirement savings in my Vanguard account.

So, for a single earner in the U.S., I'm paying about $26,000 in taxes on $103,000 adjusted gross income (before subtracting about $10,000 in additional deductions).  Then $3700 property tax, 8% to 10% sales tax, gas taxes, etc.  Health insurance is extra - I'm actually getting a great deal there with a very low deductible.

Oh, that's interesting. Is the States, are the only tax-advantaged vehicles the company provided plans? In Canada, we can use Vangaard or whatever we like.

GuitarStv

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #235 on: August 24, 2017, 08:41:46 AM »
We need to remember that we were all at that point at one time.

No we weren't.  :P

dycker1978

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #236 on: August 24, 2017, 08:41:55 AM »
I think we have a lot of people just beginning to dip their toes in Mustachianism, so they haven't fully escaped from the Consumerist Matrix yet. We need to remember that we were all at that point at one time.

There was a time when my wife suggested that we not subscribe to cable TV and I felt a panicky feeling in my chest. How were we supposed to survive without 24 hour continuous coverage of millionaires playing ball games and TV channels devoted to weddings/little people/little people getting married? It was a little scary.

Sure, but when I was new and suggested that maybe I needed a new car, I was not met with "Oh yes, you deserve it, if you can afford it', and such I was met with WTF is wrong with you, no one needs a new car check craigs list.

I am seeing much more of the "you deserve it" comments now.

Optimiser

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #237 on: August 24, 2017, 08:58:11 AM »
People should come here to have their spending decisions challenged, not to give each other a pat on the back for spending money to make ourselves happy.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #238 on: August 24, 2017, 09:32:25 AM »
I think we have a lot of people just beginning to dip their toes in Mustachianism, so they haven't fully escaped from the Consumerist Matrix yet. We need to remember that we were all at that point at one time.

There was a time when my wife suggested that we not subscribe to cable TV and I felt a panicky feeling in my chest. How were we supposed to survive without 24 hour continuous coverage of millionaires playing ball games and TV channels devoted to weddings/little people/little people getting married? It was a little scary.

Sure, but when I was new and suggested that maybe I needed a new car, I was not met with "Oh yes, you deserve it, if you can afford it', and such I was met with WTF is wrong with you, no one needs a new car check craigs list.

I am seeing much more of the "you deserve it" comments now.

Maybe we need to counteract those kind of comments more aggressively then, instead of just complaining and doing nothing about it. I see far fewer face punches on this forum than in days past and I wonder if it's because we're all becoming timid. If someone is doing something ridiculous, you need to call them out on it and be prepared to be nasty to them if necessary.

I've been doing that for a couple weeks on the "eating out" thread on the Anti-Mustachian Shame and Comedy sub-forum.

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #239 on: August 24, 2017, 09:47:35 AM »
I think we have a lot of people just beginning to dip their toes in Mustachianism, so they haven't fully escaped from the Consumerist Matrix yet. We need to remember that we were all at that point at one time.

There was a time when my wife suggested that we not subscribe to cable TV and I felt a panicky feeling in my chest. How were we supposed to survive without 24 hour continuous coverage of millionaires playing ball games and TV channels devoted to weddings/little people/little people getting married? It was a little scary.

Sure, but when I was new and suggested that maybe I needed a new car, I was not met with "Oh yes, you deserve it, if you can afford it', and such I was met with WTF is wrong with you, no one needs a new car check craigs list.

I am seeing much more of the "you deserve it" comments now.

Maybe we need to counteract those kind of comments more aggressively then, instead of just complaining and doing nothing about it. I see far fewer face punches on this forum than in days past and I wonder if it's because we're all becoming timid. If someone is doing something ridiculous, you need to call them out on it and be prepared to be nasty to them if necessary.

I've been doing that for a couple weeks on the "eating out" thread on the Anti-Mustachian Shame and Comedy sub-forum.

Eating out at all is facepunch worthy.  Doing it on a weekly basis is patently ridiculous.

sol

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #240 on: August 24, 2017, 09:53:28 AM »
Eating out at all is facepunch worthy.  Doing it on a weekly basis is patently ridiculous.

But what if "my values" tell me that my regular Wednesday Applebee's run really adds happiness and joy to my life?  Don't I deserve it?  Isn't this a forum about prioritizing your spending on the best restaurants you can afford?  What if I cut back on buying beans from the bulk foods isle so that I have more money for Applebee's, since Applebee's makes me truly happy and beans don't?

calimom

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #241 on: August 24, 2017, 09:59:17 AM »
A woman started a "gauntlet" thread about trying to see if she could lay off buying clothes for one month. I suggested she might have a shopping addiction and was scolded by a high-post-count regular (who often wants green lights for her own shopping addiction)

FINate

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #242 on: August 24, 2017, 10:05:38 AM »
A woman started a "gauntlet" thread about trying to see if she could lay off buying clothes for one month. I suggested she might have a shopping addiction and was scolded by a high-post-count regular (who often wants green lights for her own shopping addiction)

Yeah, that's weird. Shouldn't it be "only ever buy clothes if I actually need them"? Which reminds me, I need to buy some jeans as mine are starting to disintegrate.

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #243 on: August 24, 2017, 10:25:58 AM »
Is it because there are a lot more newbies asking the stupid questions and the oldsters are fed up of answering the same damn things over and over again so it's only the semi-newbies who actually reply? I don't read case studies any more, I find them too annoying.

I wonder if we could crowdsource a Mustachian FAQ with all these stupid questions and answers which are quotes from (and links to) MMM posts and quotes from (and links to) the best ever answers on the forum. Then all we'd have to do is see the stupid question, copy and paste the correct answer, and move on with our day.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #244 on: August 24, 2017, 10:38:24 AM »
You mean the stickied thread in the "Forum information & FAQs" section of the forum?

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #245 on: August 24, 2017, 10:42:38 AM »
But what if "my values" tell me that my regular Wednesday Applebee's run really adds happiness and joy to my life?  Don't I deserve it?

No!  No one's happiness should ever by tied to Applebee's. 
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SoundFuture

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #246 on: August 24, 2017, 10:52:41 AM »
No!  No one's happiness should ever by tied to Applebee's. 

Words to live by.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #247 on: August 24, 2017, 11:02:10 AM »
I think we have a lot of people just beginning to dip their toes in Mustachianism, so they haven't fully escaped from the Consumerist Matrix yet. We need to remember that we were all at that point at one time.

There was a time when my wife suggested that we not subscribe to cable TV and I felt a panicky feeling in my chest. How were we supposed to survive without 24 hour continuous coverage of millionaires playing ball games and TV channels devoted to weddings/little people/little people getting married? It was a little scary.

Sure, but when I was new and suggested that maybe I needed a new car, I was not met with "Oh yes, you deserve it, if you can afford it', and such I was met with WTF is wrong with you, no one needs a new car check craigs list.

I am seeing much more of the "you deserve it" comments now.

Maybe we need to counteract those kind of comments more aggressively then, instead of just complaining and doing nothing about it. I see far fewer face punches on this forum than in days past and I wonder if it's because we're all becoming timid. If someone is doing something ridiculous, you need to call them out on it and be prepared to be nasty to them if necessary.

I've been doing that for a couple weeks on the "eating out" thread on the Anti-Mustachian Shame and Comedy sub-forum.

Eating out at all is facepunch worthy.  Doing it on a weekly basis is patently ridiculous.

I was explaining on the thread how to make filet mignon for two with gourmet starch and vegetables and wine for only $18, so it wouldn't be necessary to go out and spend a lot for a special occasion dinner (like an anniversary or holiday) and some idiot told me that wasn't a good deal. Those are the kinds of people who need to get a verbal slap upside the head.

Travis

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #248 on: August 24, 2017, 11:05:05 AM »
Maybe you can start a sticky with "the original meaning of mustachianism" or something. Or an "I will tell you if you are a bad*ss" thread. I'm not being facetious and actually think something like that would be sort of fun.

Just take everything in this this thread and remove the sarcasm.

I miss that discussion.  Especially the folks who couldn't comprehend the entire thing was tongue in cheek.
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sol

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #249 on: August 24, 2017, 11:14:52 AM »
But what if "my values" tell me that my regular Wednesday Applebee's run really adds happiness and joy to my life?  Don't I deserve it?

No!  No one's happiness should ever by tied to Applebee's.

Words to live by.

Wait, are you telling me that my personal value system for how to spend my money shouldn't be the sole determining factor of whether or not I am making financially prudent decisions?  That's become hearsay around these parts.  It wasn't that long ago that I had 30 people from this forum tell me to buy a $600 blender because it would radically change my life for the better.


As a quick reminder to everyone, approximately one billion human beings on planet earth currently live on less than one dollar per day.  That's a total annual income of less than what this forum recommends you spend on a fucking blender.  Screw all of you who think like that, right in the ear.  Your wasteful consumer spending is a disgrace to every moral principle humanity is supposed to embody, and I have no reservations about calling you out for it. 

I'm pretty disgusted by what this place has become.