Author Topic: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?  (Read 59322 times)

dycker1978

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Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« on: August 17, 2017, 04:49:09 PM »
I have noticed so many odd topics.  From the three times daily "the top is in, red dow" to should I buy a new car, to I think I got out too soon.

All of these topics then have many people here saying that the face punch worthy decision is OK. 

Has the MMM community gone soft?

Tass

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2017, 05:02:18 PM »
I think most of those topics are started by newbies who haven't necessarily read much of the blog. (I am also a newbie, but I only ended up here after I finished reading the whole backlog and started itching for more.) I've only seen responses discouraging the anti-mustachian choices, though.

Travis

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2017, 05:18:04 PM »
You're complaining about people asking questions who could count their total forum history on their fingers.  It might get tiring, but you're going to see the same rookie questions asked over and over.  Some people enjoy throwing mustachian haymakers, and others prefer delivering fatherly advice.  The "getting out" person made a rookie mistake and in my opinion was firmly scolded and educated.  There's only so much we can do if they're determined to not take our advice.
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Eric

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2017, 05:18:35 PM »
Has the MMM community gone soft?

Gets softer every year.  As more and more people join, the forum advice drifts further and further mainstream.
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wordnerd

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2017, 05:47:42 PM »
I've been lurking around here for a few years now and do find the general tenor of advice to much more "buy the thing; you deserve small luxuries" than it used to be. There don't seem to be many ERE types left (or maybe they're too busy eating lentils in a van by the river to post? ;)). In all seriousness, I do miss the motivation I got from the more extremely frugal types.

Capt j-rod

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2017, 06:11:53 PM »
I am guilty of not being hardcore mustache. I have come a long way, I'm now saving 45% of my income and not buying stupid shit. I am detecting some snowflake actions. I take my face punches with pride. I've earned each and every one of them!

dycker1978

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2017, 07:11:01 AM »
A 1 or 2 year old used  toyota rav4  is going to be pretty similar in price to a brand new. These cars don't depreciate much, therefore a new car of this model type would be perfectly fine.

It seems the consensus is that it is newbie posting these comments.  This was posted in the new car forum.  The poster has over 1000 posts.  They are not new. 

Cwadda

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2017, 07:19:17 AM »
I feel that over the years the forum has become more distanced from true Mustachianism.

Fire2025

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2017, 07:39:42 AM »
I think its changed a lot in the last couple of years.  What used to only be in the Mustachian Hall of Shame, can now be a many page thread in ask a Mustachian, with a ton of people YOLOing along with some expensive consumeristic choice. 

The thing is, I think people always made choices to spend on silly things, they just didn't come to the forum to get advice/support for it, because they new they wouldn't get it, now they get extremely defensive with anyone who hands out an old fashioned facepunch. 

But there are sill some great posters fighting the good fight.  It's just a lot more diluted now.

Barbaebigode

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2017, 07:41:56 AM »
Although I don't post much, I've been lurking around since 2012, and yes I also have the impression that there are less face punches and more back patting than before. For some reason, that seems to happen more often with car related posts. My observations are all anecdotal, of course.

StarBright

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2017, 08:13:46 AM »
I lurked for a few years and started posting more a couple of years ago.

I agree that the forum seems "softer" now and I would say that is one of the reasons I started posting more (that and the Ramsey forums closing up shop).

I love the whole FIRE concept but don't really love the face punches. I'm a "catch more flies with honey" type of girl.

Additionally, I think another issue is that there are many of us who save in the 30-50% range  and there isn't really a great place for us. We aren't necessarily interested in saving 70% like MMM but this forum is a better fit than almost anywhere else on the webz.

If someone knows of a different forum I'd be very interested in knowing about it.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 08:17:13 AM by StarBright »

tooqk4u22

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2017, 08:35:30 AM »
Has the MMM community gone soft?

Gets softer every year.  As more and more people join, the forum advice drifts further and further mainstream.


I feel that over the years the forum has become more distanced from true Mustachianism.


And this poll confirms it.....
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/what-type-of-re-person-are-you/
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 08:38:07 AM by tooqk4u22 »

solon

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2017, 08:41:09 AM »
So, does this thread serve as permission to release my inner grumpy old man, ERE, mustachian kracken on the masses?

ketchup

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2017, 08:41:33 AM »
There are definitely more "filthy casuals" now than before.  I considered myself maybe 40th percentile frugal relative to the whole of the forum when I first joined (2012) but now I feel like I'm more like 80th percentile, and my spending has gone up somewhat in that time (granted, my income has gone up substantially more).

Paul der Krake

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2017, 08:46:56 AM »
Some of us have definitely gotten softer as a result of moving up the food chain in terms of wealth/income.

I just spent $100 on cheese and I'm not even sorry.


Barbaebigode

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2017, 08:53:32 AM »
So, does this thread serve as permission to release my inner grumpy old man, ERE, mustachian kracken on the masses?

Considering that you ended debt slavery, I'm not so sure you're such a good messenger for hardcore mustachianism ;)

solon

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2017, 08:57:43 AM »
So, does this thread serve as permission to release my inner grumpy old man, ERE, mustachian kracken on the masses?

Considering that you ended debt slavery, I'm not so sure you're such a good messenger for hardcore mustachianism ;)

I fight debt wherever, whenever, and in whatever forms it appears. Truth... justice... and the Athenian way! I think MMM would approve.

Miss Piggy

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2017, 09:01:39 AM »
I just spent $100 on cheese and I'm not even sorry.

This somehow reads like a motivational quote to me. I don't know why.  :)

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2017, 09:04:26 AM »
I'm a new member, so I can't say anything about drift....but the forum is definitely more spendy-pants than the actual blog.

GuitarStv

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2017, 09:06:47 AM »
We're commonly having conversations about the need to own an 800$ blender, the terror and dangers associated with cycling, and the benefits of market timing/speculation.  MMM Forums, I hardly know you any more.

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2017, 09:13:14 AM »
Meh. Places and things shift.

Nonplussed is now defined as being surprised and confused so much that they are unsure how to react AND being not disconcerted; unperturbed.

The guru himself just started a Pay to Play clubhouse for the cool kids.

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A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2017, 09:22:21 AM »
We're commonly having conversations about the need to own an 800$ blender, the terror and dangers associated with cycling, and the benefits of market timing/speculation.  MMM Forums, I hardly know you any more.

There's a thread about an $800 blender? Must've missed that one. O_O

I think most  people came down against market timing, though. At least it's in the water supply that market timing is a bad idea.

GuitarStv

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2017, 09:28:40 AM »
We're commonly having conversations about the need to own an 800$ blender, the terror and dangers associated with cycling, and the benefits of market timing/speculation.  MMM Forums, I hardly know you any more.

There's a thread about an $800 blender? Must've missed that one. O_O

I think most  people came down against market timing, though. At least it's in the water supply that market timing is a bad idea.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/reader-recommendations/vitamix-blender/

ketchup

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2017, 09:29:07 AM »
I'm a new member, so I can't say anything about drift....but the forum is definitely more spendy-pants than the actual blog.
The funny thing is I would say it used to be the other way around.

Caoineag

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2017, 09:33:57 AM »
Oh its definitely gone soft. Wider audiences tend to have more mainstream views. I used to be the one to keep my mouth shut because while I save 50%+, I definitely spend on things the old forum wouldn't appreciate. Now I spend time explaining how I dare to retire early. Ummm aren't we on a retire early forum? Did I miss the change over?

I think you also have the added a effect of dilution. People who can retire on very little don't take long to retire so they quickly shuffle off the board into retirement (a few post after FIRE but usually this is more for before than after). People who are saving only a little will be here longer. Since that takes longer you will get more and more of those types.

solon

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2017, 09:40:16 AM »
Somebody should create a new forum where mustachians can hang out.

Spork

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2017, 09:43:59 AM »
We're commonly having conversations about the need to own an 800$ blender, the terror and dangers associated with cycling, and the benefits of market timing/speculation.  MMM Forums, I hardly know you any more.

I think we've had these types of threads as long as I've been around...  There are just more of them.

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NeonPegasus

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2017, 09:53:57 AM »
Maybe that's a natural evolution of forums?

I was on a very birthy forum prior to the birth of my second and the organization and forum was pretty hardcore about the mission (decreasing c-sections) and supporting moms. There were lots of really smart ladies on there and lots of new moms coming for support. There was much to discuss and learn. Really cool and amazing things happened. We compiled data and proved that the community had achieved an admirable c-section rate in spite of having a group comprised of some of the least favorable candidates. Our group, with hundreds of births, was larger than most of those we found in published scientific studies and contained some really rare categories (two VBAC triplet births, for instance).

Over time, though, it became more of a social network for local moms rather than a support network for expectant moms. The off topic stuff mushroomed and on topic stuff seemed played out. Fewer moms posted for advice. Perhaps the birth community in the area had improved to the point it wasn't as necessary. Perhaps new visitors felt they weren't part of the "friends group" and didn't stick around. From the peak of hundreds of active posters (remember, this was a group for a specific metro area), they're down to a couple of dozen at best.

I will say that as a fairly new member of this forum, the sheer volume posts can be intimidating. It's hard to keep up with or contribute to a post that quickly gets dozens of responses. Though I'm not the type to spend $800 on a blender, I do think there's room for flexibility and less face punching if one is on track with their goals (one of my fav financial podcasts is "Afford Anything"). I mean, I asked for and received a 4' tall metal rooster for my birthday and it's probably the best gift I've ever gotten. But again, I'm not crying about a crushing debt load either, so there's that.

So now I've managed to refer to both vaginas and cocks in one post. You're welcome.

FINate

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #28 on: August 18, 2017, 09:59:56 AM »
The forums are more spendypants than MMM. Pretty common to see people asking "Should I buy/keep expensive item X" where the person asking the question has not reached FIRE, has debt, hair on fire situation. And X is clearly isn't a necessity. I'm shocked it how often the responses are "if it makes you happy you should have it" or other such tripe.

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #29 on: August 18, 2017, 10:06:42 AM »
My theory is that some of this is due to the inability to search easily. People, particularly newbs, ask questions that have been thoroughly and even recently discussed. Costco membership, anyone?

I know ARS has posted a helpful tutorial, but the search function needs a working "Search" box, not a tutorial. OTOH, I am enormously grateful that this is a free, and moderated, site.
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Cwadda

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2017, 10:14:37 AM »
But the forums haven't just drifted from the money aspect. I feel like a great deal of people don't fully understand Mustachianism at this point. It's not just about MONEY.

It's also about minimalism, stoicism, being environmentally and socially responsible. I feel a lot of these tenets have lost their fervor on the forums, especially in the past year.

FINate

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2017, 10:33:33 AM »
But the forums haven't just drifted from the money aspect. I feel like a great deal of people don't fully understand Mustachianism at this point. It's not just about MONEY.

It's also about minimalism, stoicism, being environmentally and socially responsible. I feel a lot of these tenets have lost their fervor on the forums, especially in the past year.

Spending is just the most common visible symptom. There are other examples, such as people saying it's fine to move far into the country which greatly extends the commute, because the OP really wants to and they believe it will make them happy. Spending way more on fuel and maintenance? Killing your body sitting in a long commute? Environmental damage of all additional emissions? It all takes a back seat to personal happiness. The heart wants what it wants.

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2017, 10:49:10 AM »
But the forums haven't just drifted from the money aspect. I feel like a great deal of people don't fully understand Mustachianism at this point. It's not just about MONEY.

It's also about minimalism, stoicism, being environmentally and socially responsible. I feel a lot of these tenets have lost their fervor on the forums, especially in the past year.

+1.  There's a common - and in my mind misplaced - assumption that this blog is about extreme frugality and money. Perhaps read over this classic post: If you think this  is about extreme frugality, you're missing the point.
At the same time there does seem to be loads more posts justifying spendypants purchases and too many free passes given to wasteful spending under the cloak of "it's not really that much more each month".

I tend to view MMM much more about aligning your spending with your values. If something doesn't measurably improve your life, cut it out. That seems to be 60-80% of most people's budget. There's also of course the 'secret' mission of this blog, which a lot of newer members seem completely unaware of. Lately, as more members filter here from mass-media articles and google searches the questions often seem at odds with the secret purpose of this entire blog.
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sol

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #33 on: August 18, 2017, 10:56:42 AM »
I tend to view MMM much more about aligning your spending with your values.

What if "my values" tell me to buy an $800 blender?

The MMM site has values.  This community used to have those same values.  If your values don't align with the site's values, maybe this isn't the community for you?  What's the point in maintaining an active online community of people who are so openly at odds with the mission and purpose of the site that created the community?

Oh, right.  Blog income.

v8rx7guy

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2017, 11:35:42 AM »
To me, it seems like it's turned into a millennial self-help / lifestyle forum with financial undertones.

GuitarStv

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2017, 11:42:38 AM »
Is there anything that those damned millenials won't ruin?  :P

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2017, 11:50:36 AM »
I tend to view MMM much more about aligning your spending with your values.

What if "my values" tell me to buy an $800 blender?

Common man, at least include my next sentence: "If something doesn't measurably improve your life, cut it out."
eg: I desire an $800 blender I saw in a magazine; i want something to make smoothies at home; i realize a used, mid-tier blender bought on craigslist for $20 will bring me as much happiness as that $800 marketing monstrosity plus now I get to max out both my IRA and HSA for the month instead, paying future me dividends.

like i siad, it's not about buying crap, or about NOT buying anything (e.g. 'extreme frugality') - it's figuring out what makes you happy, buying only what fits that and not pissing all over mother earth.
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Cwadda

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2017, 11:51:29 AM »
But the forums haven't just drifted from the money aspect. I feel like a great deal of people don't fully understand Mustachianism at this point. It's not just about MONEY.

It's also about minimalism, stoicism, being environmentally and socially responsible. I feel a lot of these tenets have lost their fervor on the forums, especially in the past year.

+1.  There's a common - and in my mind misplaced - assumption that this blog is about extreme frugality and money. Perhaps read over this classic post: If you think this  is about extreme frugality, you're missing the point.
At the same time there does seem to be loads more posts justifying spendypants purchases and too many free passes given to wasteful spending under the cloak of "it's not really that much more each month".

I tend to view MMM much more about aligning your spending with your values. If something doesn't measurably improve your life, cut it out. That seems to be 60-80% of most people's budget. There's also of course the 'secret' mission of this blog, which a lot of newer members seem completely unaware of. Lately, as more members filter here from mass-media articles and google searches the questions often seem at odds with the secret purpose of this entire blog.

I miss the posts of I.P. Daley. He doesn't post around so much. Man, that guy GETS it.

Quote
Common man, at least include my next sentence: "If something doesn't measurably improve your life, cut it out."
eg: I desire an $800 blender I saw in a magazine; i want something to make smoothies at home; i realize a used, mid-tier blender bought on craigslist for $20 will bring me as much happiness as that $800 marketing monstrosity plus now I get to max out both my IRA and HSA for the month instead, paying future me dividends.

like i siad, it's not about buying crap, or about NOT buying anything (e.g. 'extreme frugality') - it's figuring out what makes you happy, buying only what fits that and not pissing all over mother earth.
Well said.

Dabnasty

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #38 on: August 18, 2017, 11:53:25 AM »
What if "my values" tell me to buy an $800 blender?
If your values really and truly tell you to buy it then yes, it is mustachian.

However, chances are the blender is worth something to you, just not $800. Maybe the true value of the blender to you is $200 and you rationalized the other $600 with concepts that are difficult to put a value on like "It'll improve my health!"

No matter the positive effect a purchase may have on your life, you always need to weigh it against the cost. (And I don't just mean the monetary cost)

Edit:
i realize a used, mid-tier blender bought on craigslist for $20 will bring me as much happiness as that $800 marketing monstrosity

And yes, always look for alternatives that fill the same 'need'
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 11:57:32 AM by Dabnasty »

Optimiser

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #39 on: August 18, 2017, 12:01:36 PM »
But the forums haven't just drifted from the money aspect. I feel like a great deal of people don't fully understand Mustachianism at this point. It's not just about MONEY.

It's also about minimalism, stoicism, being environmentally and socially responsible. I feel a lot of these tenets have lost their fervor on the forums, especially in the past year.
+1 to this. I've seen so many times lately that if you can afford it and it makes you happy then it is okay. Minimalism, stoicism, environmental and social responsibility, frugality, badassity, etc. don't seem to matter.  I'm glad I'm not the only one who has noticed the trend.

Gondolin

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #40 on: August 18, 2017, 12:03:07 PM »
Quote
To me, it seems like it's turned into a millennial self-help / lifestyle forum with financial undertones.

Ha, I was literally counting the posts until someone blamed the millennials.


I've only been here two and a half years but the trend is towards "spend your values" softness. I do think the number of true mustachians has grown, just not as fast as the wishy washy crowd who saves only 20% of income due to their boat payment and claim to be taking the "slow route to FI".

I'm REALLY curious how it would look if someone like Winchesterfrugal came back. Originally, she was panned by 90% of posters. Now I bet a third of respondents would be telling her it's ok to spend it all "since you can afford it".

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Check2400

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #41 on: August 18, 2017, 12:10:39 PM »
Is there anything that those damned millenials won't ruin?  :P

Put it on the Board!

Optimiser

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #42 on: August 18, 2017, 12:18:23 PM »
^ That is great!

cats

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #43 on: August 18, 2017, 12:19:28 PM »
Bear in mind that since the forums started, the stock market has gone up and unemployment has gone down.  I'm guessing that people in general may be feeling more wealthy and relaxed about their spending as a result.  When the next recession rolls around, I suspect the tone will change and posters will be more motivated to cut spending.

I do think also there's a lot of merit to the comments about the forum simply becoming more mainstream as it gets larger.  That's inevitable.  I see a lot of posters who make it clear they don't aspire to ER at all, just want to be a bit more frugal/financially secure than average.

What annoys me most is the posters who mock or deride people who are living more frugally than they are as "not enjoying life" or similar.  Like, have you not read the MMM blog, early posts especially?

Dabnasty

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #44 on: August 18, 2017, 12:20:06 PM »
Death to Marmalade!

Actually I kind of like it but I make my own. And I looked that one up, the title was being sarcastic.

Zikoris

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #45 on: August 18, 2017, 12:25:16 PM »
Yeah, the forums have gone wussypants. I definitely find myself posting a lot less than I used to, because I have nothing to contribute to discussions about new cars and luxury goods, or the same beginner questions that have been done to death.

Maybe sticky posts would help, for things like:
- How to spend less on food
- How to access retirement accounts early
- Spending level ≠ Quality of life or happiness
- Renting vs buying

But then again, people might just ignore them and post dumb shit anyways.
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nereo

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #46 on: August 18, 2017, 12:27:44 PM »
Bear in mind that since the forums started, the stock market has gone up and unemployment has gone down.  I'm guessing that people in general may be feeling more wealthy and relaxed about their spending as a result.  When the next recession rolls around, I suspect the tone will change and posters will be more motivated to cut spending.

Interesting hypothesis.  It shuld be noted that this entire forum has existed only during a bull market.  I, too, wonder what will happen when the SHTF. 


But then again, people might just ignore them and post dumb shit anyways.
Yes, many people will ignore both the search feature and stickies to ask the same damn question for the 100th time. 
Hey, should I pay down my mortgage faster or contribute more to my investments?  Anyone??
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Paul der Krake

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #47 on: August 18, 2017, 12:28:06 PM »
What if "my values" tell me to buy an $800 blender?
If your values really and truly tell you to buy it then yes, it is mustachian.
People believe unverifiable crap all the time. In the most extreme example, believing is such a strong force that it leads people to take their own lives.

How strongly one believes something is not relevant when examining its validity.

Optimiser

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #48 on: August 18, 2017, 12:30:17 PM »
Maybe sticky posts would help, for things like:
- How to spend less on food
- How to access retirement accounts early
- Spending level ≠ Quality of life or happiness
- Renting vs buying

But then again, people might just ignore them and post dumb shit anyways.

It's not like these topics haven't been covered in the blog. I've started posting quotes from the Pete along with a link to the blog article when people start saying things like "I'm sure MMM would be fine with me spending $$$$$ on a full size truck because it aligns with my values."

Dabnasty

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Re: Weird fourm coversations - has the community gone soft?
« Reply #49 on: August 18, 2017, 12:35:07 PM »
Bear in mind that since the forums started, the stock market has gone up and unemployment has gone down.  I'm guessing that people in general may be feeling more wealthy and relaxed about their spending as a result.  When the next recession rolls around, I suspect the tone will change and posters will be more motivated to cut spending.
Good point. I wonder if there will be a huge surge of traffic after the next recession since people will be searching for terms that the forums must be littered with by now.
What annoys me most is the posters who mock or deride people who are living more frugally than they are as "not enjoying life" or similar.  Like, have you not read the MMM blog, early posts especially?
Drives me nuts. But I guess the Wheaton scale applies even to those who aspire to FIRE.