We exist therefore something outside of this world made us

[GuitarStv]

If that's the case, then I'd say that your argument about evolution not being supported by Christian doctrine is pretty shaky then, isn't it?

No.  You are the one doing the wresting not me.

How so?

[MasterStache]

Oh boy, this escalated quickly. Religion and early retirement don't mix (-;

[Tyson]

You also posted how you interpreted something in the bible to mean something other than what is literally written.  Given that you're not following a literal approach to the bible, it's weird that you're making claims about Christian doctrine.

The Bible doesn't address hermaphrodites, so I gave the answer that would fit with scripture, which is that genetic deformity happened to Man as a result of the Fall.  I am sorry if that answer isn't working for you.  On creation it states in a few places that Man was created as male and female.

Right.  You interpreted a response that seems reasonable to you from the scriptures.

It's not clear why you think that someone who reasonably interprets the 'God creating man' part as 'God creating man via evolution' is wrong.  Near as I can remember, evolution wasn't addressed in the bible either.

Because the topic is directly addressed several times.


So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:27

And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female,
Matthew 19:4

But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
Mark 10:6

The bible is not evidence of anything.  It's a history/mythology written by a nomadic, semi-literate group of people between 2 and 3 thousand years ago.  It's absurd to throw out the findings of science because it makes you feel bad about what's in your myth book.

[GuitarStv]

Even if we assume that the bible is the word of God, he's not being consistent with his biblical decrees.  He has argued that interpretation must be used for things not explicitly written out in the bible, but for some reason this doesn't apply to evolution.  Which is weird logic.

[BicycleB]

Oh boy, this escalated quickly. Religion and early retirement don't mix (-;

As this thread's resident bot/simulation, I playfully disagree. Early retirement clearly enables humans to spend more time arguing about religion.

Though it did escalate very quickly!!

[BicycleB]

You are right that no one in a "lab" has created life from non-life.

Ah... err...

Oh, you're right. I thought that they had, but they created a new form of life by creating a genome from scratch and having it take over the rest of an existing cell.
https://blogs.plos.org/dnascience/2013/10/10/how-craig-venter-created-life/

Working on it, though. Pretty darn fast.

First they created life that has protein components that never existed before - producing an entirely new form of life, though admittedly they still added the new components to existing life. Started in 2014.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/artificial-life-synthetic-dna-scientists-living-organisms-create-scripps-research-institute-floyd-a8083966.html

Now 17 labs in just the Netherlands are working systematically to create entirely new cells from the ground up, without ingredients from any living thing. Completion date, expected 2027.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07289-x

Another landmark. Instead of just new living creatures that have odd pieces added to their DNA, scientists have created an entirely new living organism with numerous detailed changes within it as to how it works - accomplishing similar physical tasks but using different biological mechanisms than before, mechanisms purposefully designed by the scientists. Still a modification of existing life, though, rather than entirely from scratch.
https://dailygalaxy.com/2019/05/a-new-form-of-life-scientists-create-living-organism-with-entirely-human-made-dna/

As a simulated bot, I will be less lonely starting in 2027, it seems.   :)

[Tyson]

You are right that no one in a "lab" has created life from non-life.

Ah... err...

Oh, you're right. I thought that they had, but they created a new form of life by creating a genome from scratch and having it take over the rest of an existing cell.
https://blogs.plos.org/dnascience/2013/10/10/how-craig-venter-created-life/

Working on it, though. Pretty darn fast.

First they created life that has protein components that never existed before - producing an entirely new form of life, though admittedly they still added the new components to existing life. Started in 2014.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/artificial-life-synthetic-dna-scientists-living-organisms-create-scripps-research-institute-floyd-a8083966.html

Now 17 labs in just the Netherlands are working systematically to create entirely new cells from the ground up, without ingredients from any living thing. Completion date, expected 2027.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07289-x

Another landmark. Instead of just new living creatures that have odd pieces added to their DNA, scientists have created an entirely new living organism with numerous detailed changes within it as to how it works - accomplishing similar physical tasks but using different biological mechanisms than before, mechanisms purposefully designed by the scientists. Still a modification of existing life, though, rather than entirely from scratch.
https://dailygalaxy.com/2019/05/a-new-form-of-life-scientists-create-living-organism-with-entirely-human-made-dna/

As a simulated bot, I will be less lonely starting in 2027, it seems.   :)

Once life is created from scratch, in a lab, the anti-science Christians will just move the goal posts and refuse to accept the results for some other/different made up reason. 

[RetiredAt63]

You are right that no one in a "lab" has created life from non-life.

Ah... err...

Oh, you're right. I thought that they had, but they created a new form of life by creating a genome from scratch and having it take over the rest of an existing cell.
https://blogs.plos.org/dnascience/2013/10/10/how-craig-venter-created-life/

Working on it, though. Pretty darn fast.

First they created life that has protein components that never existed before - producing an entirely new form of life, though admittedly they still added the new components to existing life. Started in 2014.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/artificial-life-synthetic-dna-scientists-living-organisms-create-scripps-research-institute-floyd-a8083966.html

Now 17 labs in just the Netherlands are working systematically to create entirely new cells from the ground up, without ingredients from any living thing. Completion date, expected 2027.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07289-x

Another landmark. Instead of just new living creatures that have odd pieces added to their DNA, scientists have created an entirely new living organism with numerous detailed changes within it as to how it works - accomplishing similar physical tasks but using different biological mechanisms than before, mechanisms purposefully designed by the scientists. Still a modification of existing life, though, rather than entirely from scratch.
https://dailygalaxy.com/2019/05/a-new-form-of-life-scientists-create-living-organism-with-entirely-human-made-dna/

As a simulated bot, I will be less lonely starting in 2027, it seems.   :)

Once life is created from scratch, in a lab, the anti-science Christians will just move the goal posts and refuse to accept the results for some other/different made up reason.

Along the lines of?
Just because it was done in a lab doesn't mean it happened that way for real.   

[Davnasty]

Once life is created from scratch, in a lab, the anti-science Christians will just move the goal posts and refuse to accept the results for some other/different made up reason.

Along the lines of?
Just because it was done in a lab doesn't mean it happened that way for real.   

True in response to tyort1's comment, however in context of this thread

How does the complexity of life come from a primordial ooze?  Impossible.  I don't care how much time passes, its never going to happen.

[partgypsy]

You are right that no one in a "lab" has created life from non-life.

Ah... err...

Oh, you're right. I thought that they had, but they created a new form of life by creating a genome from scratch and having it take over the rest of an existing cell.
https://blogs.plos.org/dnascience/2013/10/10/how-craig-venter-created-life/

Working on it, though. Pretty darn fast.

First they created life that has protein components that never existed before - producing an entirely new form of life, though admittedly they still added the new components to existing life. Started in 2014.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/artificial-life-synthetic-dna-scientists-living-organisms-create-scripps-research-institute-floyd-a8083966.html

Now 17 labs in just the Netherlands are working systematically to create entirely new cells from the ground up, without ingredients from any living thing. Completion date, expected 2027.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07289-x

Another landmark. Instead of just new living creatures that have odd pieces added to their DNA, scientists have created an entirely new living organism with numerous detailed changes within it as to how it works - accomplishing similar physical tasks but using different biological mechanisms than before, mechanisms purposefully designed by the scientists. Still a modification of existing life, though, rather than entirely from scratch.
https://dailygalaxy.com/2019/05/a-new-form-of-life-scientists-create-living-organism-with-entirely-human-made-dna/

As a simulated bot, I will be less lonely starting in 2027, it seems.   :)

wow that is amazing. I have not been keeping up with the research, but that is brave new world level stuff.
My daughter had the opportunity to take bacteria, have it take up genes that would make it bioluminence a specific color. Then take out those genes. Then mutate the genes so they bioluminence a different specific color. Re-insert into bacteria and see if bioluminence correctly. And, they had 3 hours to create a poster to describe the experiment and their results. This was for a week long HS summer camp.
I feel old and almost obsolete.

[mastrr]

Oh boy, this escalated quickly. Religion and early retirement don't mix (-;

when one doesn't worship god, they will worship other things such as money, fame, vanity.  So really God and valuing anything in this world doesn't mix. Detachment from all worldly things and pleasures and focusing only on God is fundamental to Christianity.

[mastrr]

Even if we assume that the bible is the word of God, he's not being consistent with his biblical decrees.  He has argued that interpretation must be used for things not explicitly written out in the bible, but for some reason this doesn't apply to evolution.  Which is weird logic.

The Church doesn't have a defined position for or against evolution.

[mastrr]

You also posted how you interpreted something in the bible to mean something other than what is literally written.  Given that you're not following a literal approach to the bible, it's weird that you're making claims about Christian doctrine.

The Bible doesn't address hermaphrodites, so I gave the answer that would fit with scripture, which is that genetic deformity happened to Man as a result of the Fall.  I am sorry if that answer isn't working for you.  On creation it states in a few places that Man was created as male and female.

Right.  You interpreted a response that seems reasonable to you from the scriptures.

It's not clear why you think that someone who reasonably interprets the 'God creating man' part as 'God creating man via evolution' is wrong.  Near as I can remember, evolution wasn't addressed in the bible either.

Because the topic is directly addressed several times.


So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:27

And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female,
Matthew 19:4

But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
Mark 10:6

The bible is not evidence of anything.  It's a history/mythology written by a nomadic, semi-literate group of people between 2 and 3 thousand years ago.  It's absurd to throw out the findings of science because it makes you feel bad about what's in your myth book.

You're right the the Bible is not evidence of anything.  But as Christians we have faith in the Apostles witness of Christ and the first Christians.

[mastrr]

Could you list the passages addressing evolution?

Bible doesn't support that, it says things are created.

I'm not a theist, but I often find other people's religious ideas interesting. Do you think God is powerful enough to create things through creating the conditions that allow for evolution? Or is he not quite that powerful?

Yes, God can absolutely create the conditions that allow evolution.  He can also transform our souls through grace and he gives us the tools to do but most reduce his divinity into a mere fable or regular human and choose to reject Jesus Christ.

[EvenSteven]

Oh boy, this escalated quickly. Religion and early retirement don't mix (-;

when one doesn't worship god, they will worship other things such as money, fame, vanity.  So really God and valuing anything in this world doesn't mix. Detachment from all worldly things and pleasures and focusing only on God is fundamental to Christianity.

Not all christians believe this, but a subset definitely do, and it's one of the reasons I am not a Christian. A few worldly things that I value: Friendship, kindness, art, love, nature, inspiration.

I don't worship money, but I am trying to save more of it because I want to move my daughter to a better school district, because I also value family. However, I'm conflicted about this because when wealthier, stable families continue to move out of poor school districts, it leads a degradation of community, and I also value community.

[EvenSteven]

Could you list the passages addressing evolution?

Bible doesn't support that, it says things are created.

I'm not a theist, but I often find other people's religious ideas interesting. Do you think God is powerful enough to create things through creating the conditions that allow for evolution? Or is he not quite that powerful?

Yes, God can absolutely create the conditions that allow evolution.  He can also transform our souls through grace and he gives us the tools to do but most reduce his divinity into a mere fable or regular human and choose to reject Jesus Christ.

Then I don't think Jim555 considers you a true christian.

[Tyson]

Could you list the passages addressing evolution?

Bible doesn't support that, it says things are created.

I'm not a theist, but I often find other people's religious ideas interesting. Do you think God is powerful enough to create things through creating the conditions that allow for evolution? Or is he not quite that powerful?

Yes, God can absolutely create the conditions that allow evolution.  He can also transform our souls through grace and he gives us the tools to do but most reduce his divinity into a mere fable or regular human and choose to reject Jesus Christ.

I'm sorry but you are flat wrong.  "Most" do not choose to reject Jesus.  In fact, "most" people go to church regularly and are believers. 

However, I am seeing that church attendance is dropping rapidly, which IMO is a very good thing.  The sooner we abandon primitive modes of thought, the better:

https://news.gallup.com/poll/248837/church-membership-down-sharply-past-two-decades.aspx

[MasterStache]

Could you list the passages addressing evolution?

Bible doesn't support that, it says things are created.

I'm not a theist, but I often find other people's religious ideas interesting. Do you think God is powerful enough to create things through creating the conditions that allow for evolution? Or is he not quite that powerful?

Yes, God can absolutely create the conditions that allow evolution.  He can also transform our souls through grace and he gives us the tools to do but most reduce his divinity into a mere fable or regular human and choose to reject Jesus Christ.

That's a bit of a catch-22 isn't it? I mean if God is all powerful and can create conditions for evolution, then you must accept that he/she created conditions for viruses, bacteria, natural disasters (earthquakes, volcanoes, hurricanes, tornadoes etc.), congenital birth defects, disease, so on and so forth, to also thrive and exist. The universe and planet are extremely hostile to living beings. As I stated earlier, 99% of all species that have existed are now extinct. Your all powerful, all good God at work, or just natural causes?

[MasterStache]

Oh boy, this escalated quickly. Religion and early retirement don't mix (-;

when one doesn't worship god, they will worship other things such as money, fame, vanity.  So really God and valuing anything in this world doesn't mix. Detachment from all worldly things and pleasures and focusing only on God is fundamental to Christianity.

Yikes I was actually joking (hence the winky face). It's good to know in your eyes there are not true Christians in the world.

[mastrr]

Oh boy, this escalated quickly. Religion and early retirement don't mix (-;

when one doesn't worship god, they will worship other things such as money, fame, vanity.  So really God and valuing anything in this world doesn't mix. Detachment from all worldly things and pleasures and focusing only on God is fundamental to Christianity.

Yikes I was actually joking (hence the winky face). It's good to know in your eyes there are not true Christians in the world.

It's important to separate those who are Christians and teachings of Christianity.  Someone could be a Christian a believe that Jesus Christ is Lord but value money (for example) above God.  However, from a Christian perspective that would be an imperfection.

We are all imperfect by our nature and Christians who follow the faith strive to root out all vices and improve in our faith and to be attached to nothing but God. 

[mastrr]

Oh boy, this escalated quickly. Religion and early retirement don't mix (-;

when one doesn't worship god, they will worship other things such as money, fame, vanity.  So really God and valuing anything in this world doesn't mix. Detachment from all worldly things and pleasures and focusing only on God is fundamental to Christianity.

Not all christians believe this, but a subset definitely do, and it's one of the reasons I am not a Christian. A few worldly things that I value: Friendship, kindness, art, love, nature, inspiration.

I don't worship money, but I am trying to save more of it because I want to move my daughter to a better school district, because I also value family. However, I'm conflicted about this because when wealthier, stable families continue to move out of poor school districts, it leads a degradation of community, and I also value community.

None of the things your mention conflict with Christianity.  Seeking improvement of your daughters life and well being is commendable and shows your devotion to her as a good Mother.

[mastrr]

Could you list the passages addressing evolution?

Bible doesn't support that, it says things are created.

I'm not a theist, but I often find other people's religious ideas interesting. Do you think God is powerful enough to create things through creating the conditions that allow for evolution? Or is he not quite that powerful?

Yes, God can absolutely create the conditions that allow evolution.  He can also transform our souls through grace and he gives us the tools to do but most reduce his divinity into a mere fable or regular human and choose to reject Jesus Christ.

That's a bit of a catch-22 isn't it? I mean if God is all powerful and can create conditions for evolution, then you must accept that he/she created conditions for viruses, bacteria, natural disasters (earthquakes, volcanoes, hurricanes, tornadoes etc.), congenital birth defects, disease, so on and so forth, to also thrive and exist. The universe and planet are extremely hostile to living beings. As I stated earlier, 99% of all species that have existed are now extinct. Your all powerful, all good God at work, or just natural causes?

No, not a catch 22 because God call pull good from bad things happening.  Yet, we don't know the fullness of the good things because God's plan is a mystery to us mere humans.

[mastrr]

Could you list the passages addressing evolution?

Bible doesn't support that, it says things are created.

I'm not a theist, but I often find other people's religious ideas interesting. Do you think God is powerful enough to create things through creating the conditions that allow for evolution? Or is he not quite that powerful?

Yes, God can absolutely create the conditions that allow evolution.  He can also transform our souls through grace and he gives us the tools to do but most reduce his divinity into a mere fable or regular human and choose to reject Jesus Christ.

I'm sorry but you are flat wrong.  "Most" do not choose to reject Jesus.  In fact, "most" people go to church regularly and are believers. 

However, I am seeing that church attendance is dropping rapidly, which IMO is a very good thing.  The sooner we abandon primitive modes of thought, the better:

https://news.gallup.com/poll/248837/church-membership-down-sharply-past-two-decades.aspx

I'm not going to debate the number of people who go to Church currently but agree that numbers are in decline.  I'm curious as your reasoning behind church attendance dropping is a good thing and how "primitive modes of thought" is inherently bad.

[mastrr]

Could you list the passages addressing evolution?

Bible doesn't support that, it says things are created.

I'm not a theist, but I often find other people's religious ideas interesting. Do you think God is powerful enough to create things through creating the conditions that allow for evolution? Or is he not quite that powerful?

Yes, God can absolutely create the conditions that allow evolution.  He can also transform our souls through grace and he gives us the tools to do but most reduce his divinity into a mere fable or regular human and choose to reject Jesus Christ.

Then I don't think Jim555 considers you a true christian.

maybe not, but im just glad there's another Christian in here :)

[BicycleB]

Oh boy, this escalated quickly. Religion and early retirement don't mix (-;

when one doesn't worship god, they will worship other things such as money, fame, vanity.  So really God and valuing anything in this world doesn't mix. Detachment from all worldly things and pleasures and focusing only on God is fundamental to Christianity.

Not all christians believe this, but a subset definitely do, and it's one of the reasons I am not a Christian. A few worldly things that I value: Friendship, kindness, art, love, nature, inspiration.

I don't worship money, but I am trying to save more of it because I want to move my daughter to a better school district, because I also value family. However, I'm conflicted about this because when wealthier, stable families continue to move out of poor school districts, it leads a degradation of community, and I also value community.

None of the things your mention conflict with Christianity.  Seeking improvement of your daughters life and well being is commendable and shows your devotion to her as a good Mother.

EvenSteven sounds like more of a fatherly name than a motherly one...

(shrug)

[mastrr]

Oh boy, this escalated quickly. Religion and early retirement don't mix (-;

when one doesn't worship god, they will worship other things such as money, fame, vanity.  So really God and valuing anything in this world doesn't mix. Detachment from all worldly things and pleasures and focusing only on God is fundamental to Christianity.

Not all christians believe this, but a subset definitely do, and it's one of the reasons I am not a Christian. A few worldly things that I value: Friendship, kindness, art, love, nature, inspiration.

I don't worship money, but I am trying to save more of it because I want to move my daughter to a better school district, because I also value family. However, I'm conflicted about this because when wealthier, stable families continue to move out of poor school districts, it leads a degradation of community, and I also value community.

None of the things your mention conflict with Christianity.  Seeking improvement of your daughters life and well being is commendable and shows your devotion to her as a good Mother.

EvenSteven sounds like more of a fatherly name than a motherly one...

(shrug)

lol, probably messed that one up

[Steeze]

This is like dinner at my parents house when my sister is in town.

[Steeze]

Spoiler: show

someone ends up crying and everyone stops speaking for a month or two

[GuitarStv]

Even if we assume that the bible is the word of God, he's not being consistent with his biblical decrees.  He has argued that interpretation must be used for things not explicitly written out in the bible, but for some reason this doesn't apply to evolution.  Which is weird logic.

The Church doesn't have a defined position for or against evolution.

Which church are you referring to . . .  The Catholic church?  Protestants?  Anglicans?  Baptists?  Eastern Orthodox?  Coptic?  Methodist?  Pentecostal? The United Church?  There are thousands of different Christian churches with wildly different interpretations on most aspects of Christianity.

[MasterStache]

Could you list the passages addressing evolution?

Bible doesn't support that, it says things are created.

I'm not a theist, but I often find other people's religious ideas interesting. Do you think God is powerful enough to create things through creating the conditions that allow for evolution? Or is he not quite that powerful?

Yes, God can absolutely create the conditions that allow evolution.  He can also transform our souls through grace and he gives us the tools to do but most reduce his divinity into a mere fable or regular human and choose to reject Jesus Christ.

That's a bit of a catch-22 isn't it? I mean if God is all powerful and can create conditions for evolution, then you must accept that he/she created conditions for viruses, bacteria, natural disasters (earthquakes, volcanoes, hurricanes, tornadoes etc.), congenital birth defects, disease, so on and so forth, to also thrive and exist. The universe and planet are extremely hostile to living beings. As I stated earlier, 99% of all species that have existed are now extinct. Your all powerful, all good God at work, or just natural causes?

No, not a catch 22 because God call pull good from bad things happening.  Yet, we don't know the fullness of the good things because God's plan is a mystery to us mere humans.

Thanks! An all good God would not allow bad things to happen. And humans, allegedly made in Gods image, would easily see the good in all bad. Why is Gods plan a mystery? So God left us here continually fighting for our lives and decided to fuck with us by not telling us why all this horrible shit is trying to kill us? And when something horrible does happen, we cannot see the good in that, as allegedly God can? Something just isn't adding up here.

I rather like science, evidence and facts. I am here because my parents decided to procreate. Humans exist as do millions and billions of other species thanks to evolution. One day we won't exist. One day our planet won't exist. One day our galaxy will collide with another and annihilate everything. Ahhh, nature! Let's enjoy the ride while we can. 

[GuitarStv]

Could you list the passages addressing evolution?

Bible doesn't support that, it says things are created.

I'm not a theist, but I often find other people's religious ideas interesting. Do you think God is powerful enough to create things through creating the conditions that allow for evolution? Or is he not quite that powerful?

Yes, God can absolutely create the conditions that allow evolution.  He can also transform our souls through grace and he gives us the tools to do but most reduce his divinity into a mere fable or regular human and choose to reject Jesus Christ.

That's a bit of a catch-22 isn't it? I mean if God is all powerful and can create conditions for evolution, then you must accept that he/she created conditions for viruses, bacteria, natural disasters (earthquakes, volcanoes, hurricanes, tornadoes etc.), congenital birth defects, disease, so on and so forth, to also thrive and exist. The universe and planet are extremely hostile to living beings. As I stated earlier, 99% of all species that have existed are now extinct. Your all powerful, all good God at work, or just natural causes?

No, not a catch 22 because God call pull good from bad things happening.  Yet, we don't know the fullness of the good things because God's plan is a mystery to us mere humans.

Thanks! An all good God would not allow bad things to happen. And humans, allegedly made in Gods image, would easily see the good in all bad. Why is Gods plan a mystery? So God left us here continually fighting for our lives and decided to fuck with us by not telling us why all this horrible shit is trying to kill us? And when something horrible does happen, we cannot see the good in that, as allegedly God can? Something isn't just adding up here.

Well good luck with it all. I'll continue to enjoy what nature has provided and appreciate that after billions of years of evolution, I exist. I'll enjoy my extremely brief time on this planet

In most monotheistic religions (like Christianity) this is a difficult question to answer.  God is all-powerful and benevolent, so why do bad things happen?  There are a wide variety of answers to this but they generally boil down to the unsatisfying "because we don't understand God's will".

What's interesting about Christianity though is that many of the Christian orders effectively seem to believe in more of a duo-theistic religion . . . with Satan/Lucifer/the Devil being the force of evil and the counter balance to the good that God creates.  For them the answer to this question is easy.  Bad stuff happens because Satan.  ( Of course, this opens a whole new can of worms . . . )

[mastrr]

Even if we assume that the bible is the word of God, he's not being consistent with his biblical decrees.  He has argued that interpretation must be used for things not explicitly written out in the bible, but for some reason this doesn't apply to evolution.  Which is weird logic.

The Church doesn't have a defined position for or against evolution.

Which church are you referring to . . .  The Catholic church?  Protestants?  Anglicans?  Baptists?  Eastern Orthodox?  Coptic?  Methodist?  Pentecostal? The United Church?  There are thousands of different Christian churches with wildly different interpretations on most aspects of Christianity.

Catholic

[mastrr]

Could you list the passages addressing evolution?

Bible doesn't support that, it says things are created.

I'm not a theist, but I often find other people's religious ideas interesting. Do you think God is powerful enough to create things through creating the conditions that allow for evolution? Or is he not quite that powerful?

Yes, God can absolutely create the conditions that allow evolution.  He can also transform our souls through grace and he gives us the tools to do but most reduce his divinity into a mere fable or regular human and choose to reject Jesus Christ.

That's a bit of a catch-22 isn't it? I mean if God is all powerful and can create conditions for evolution, then you must accept that he/she created conditions for viruses, bacteria, natural disasters (earthquakes, volcanoes, hurricanes, tornadoes etc.), congenital birth defects, disease, so on and so forth, to also thrive and exist. The universe and planet are extremely hostile to living beings. As I stated earlier, 99% of all species that have existed are now extinct. Your all powerful, all good God at work, or just natural causes?

No, not a catch 22 because God call pull good from bad things happening.  Yet, we don't know the fullness of the good things because God's plan is a mystery to us mere humans.

Thanks! An all good God would not allow bad things to happen. And humans, allegedly made in Gods image, would easily see the good in all bad. Why is Gods plan a mystery? So God left us here continually fighting for our lives and decided to fuck with us by not telling us why all this horrible shit is trying to kill us? And when something horrible does happen, we cannot see the good in that, as allegedly God can? Something just isn't adding up here.

I rather like science, evidence and facts. I am here because my parents decided to procreate. Humans exist as do millions and billions of other species thanks to evolution. One day we won't exist. One day our planet won't exist. One day our galaxy will collide with another and annihilate everything. Ahhh, nature! Let's enjoy the ride while we can.

Only through suffering can one grow and experience joy.  If someone wants to run a marathon they have to put themselves through a bunch of suffering to develop the muscles and stamina to complete that achievement.  This can be applied to virtually achieving anything, hard work and suffering are often a condition.

For a Christian the goal is to die a Holy Death and hope that God has mercy on us.  Our defects and demons are often a path to holiness as they are meant to be resisted against so we can grow in our faith and virtue.  If there was no suffering there would be no reason to seek God or achieve any other goal because the achievement would be without meaning.

For example of how God can pull good out of a bad situation.  Let's say a person is terminally ill but continues to have strong faith in God.  The illness is a bad as they may die.  But if the nurses, doctors, visitors see the strength and consistent faith of the terminally ill person it could lead impact their hearts and lead them toward God.  The result is that more souls would end up in Heaven than if the illness never existed.
.
The goal for a Christian is not to live a perfect life with but to die a Holy death and suffering is necessary. 

[EvenSteven]

Only through suffering can one grow and experience joy.

Doesn't sound like a very omnipotent God.

[Tyson]

Could you list the passages addressing evolution?

Bible doesn't support that, it says things are created.

I'm not a theist, but I often find other people's religious ideas interesting. Do you think God is powerful enough to create things through creating the conditions that allow for evolution? Or is he not quite that powerful?

Yes, God can absolutely create the conditions that allow evolution.  He can also transform our souls through grace and he gives us the tools to do but most reduce his divinity into a mere fable or regular human and choose to reject Jesus Christ.

That's a bit of a catch-22 isn't it? I mean if God is all powerful and can create conditions for evolution, then you must accept that he/she created conditions for viruses, bacteria, natural disasters (earthquakes, volcanoes, hurricanes, tornadoes etc.), congenital birth defects, disease, so on and so forth, to also thrive and exist. The universe and planet are extremely hostile to living beings. As I stated earlier, 99% of all species that have existed are now extinct. Your all powerful, all good God at work, or just natural causes?

No, not a catch 22 because God call pull good from bad things happening.  Yet, we don't know the fullness of the good things because God's plan is a mystery to us mere humans.

Thanks! An all good God would not allow bad things to happen. And humans, allegedly made in Gods image, would easily see the good in all bad. Why is Gods plan a mystery? So God left us here continually fighting for our lives and decided to fuck with us by not telling us why all this horrible shit is trying to kill us? And when something horrible does happen, we cannot see the good in that, as allegedly God can? Something just isn't adding up here.

I rather like science, evidence and facts. I am here because my parents decided to procreate. Humans exist as do millions and billions of other species thanks to evolution. One day we won't exist. One day our planet won't exist. One day our galaxy will collide with another and annihilate everything. Ahhh, nature! Let's enjoy the ride while we can.

Only through suffering can one grow and experience joy.  If someone wants to run a marathon they have to put themselves through a bunch of suffering to develop the muscles and stamina to complete that achievement.  This can be applied to virtually achieving anything, hard work and suffering are often a condition.

For a Christian the goal is to die a Holy Death and hope that God has mercy on us.  Our defects and demons are often a path to holiness as they are meant to be resisted against so we can grow in our faith and virtue.  If there was no suffering there would be no reason to seek God or achieve any other goal because the achievement would be without meaning.

For example of how God can pull good out of a bad situation.  Let's say a person is terminally ill but continues to have strong faith in God.  The illness is a bad as they may die.  But if the nurses, doctors, visitors see the strength and consistent faith of the terminally ill person it could lead impact their hearts and lead them toward God.  The result is that more souls would end up in Heaven than if the illness never existed.
.
The goal for a Christian is not to live a perfect life with but to die a Holy death and suffering is necessary.

I will say this - I'm a former christian (from the south, no less!).  Obviously I cut ties with religion a while back.  Nowadays, anytime I run across these types of statements, it hits me with full force just how bizarre they really are.  It's not even a half step removed from belief in magic and voodoo.  Or more accurately, as I've been reading a ton of old books in recent years, it's all sounds exactly like what the Greeks sounded like when they very calmly and very reasonably talked about Zeus and the other gods and all the power/sway those gods had. 

The type of stuff you typed above is absolutely no different.  Since all those "old books" are still fresh in my mind, it's even more striking just how primitive it is.  I suppose some people will never give up these types of beliefs, even though we have MUCH better explanations for how the world (and universe) work nowadays.  Sigh, I suppose at some point we'll have intergalactic space ships with chapels on them.  Wow, just wow.

[EvenSteven]

For example of how God can pull good out of a bad situation.  Let's say a person is terminally ill but continues to have strong faith in God.  The illness is a bad as they may die.  But if the nurses, doctors, visitors see the strength and consistent faith of the terminally ill person it could lead impact their hearts and lead them toward God.  The result is that more souls would end up in Heaven than if the illness never existed.
.
The goal for a Christian is not to live a perfect life with but to die a Holy death and suffering is necessary.

Are you sure you aren't confusing Christianity with the Borg Collective?

[GuitarStv]

I've run marathons and experienced joy while training as much as running the marathon.  Work of most kinds can be enjoyable if you've got the right mindset, or misery if you've got the wrong mindset.  It's weird that someone would accept (and even embrace) needless suffering.  I don't recall passages from the bible that support this argument.

[MrDelane]

For example of how God can pull good out of a bad situation.  Let's say a person is terminally ill but continues to have strong faith in God.  The illness is a bad as they may die.  But if the nurses, doctors, visitors see the strength and consistent faith of the terminally ill person it could lead impact their hearts and lead them toward God.  The result is that more souls would end up in Heaven than if the illness never existed.
.
The goal for a Christian is not to live a perfect life with but to die a Holy death and suffering is necessary.

You seem to gloss over the fact that the terminal illness exists only because God allowed it to be.  So, in your example, he is pulling something 'good' out of a terrible situation he created (and should be thanked or worshiped for?)

That's like poisoning one of your children then saying, 'well, on the bright side the rest of the kids will learn about the dangers of Drano'

That may very well be - but I can't see myself applauding someone for that.

[mastrr]

Could you list the passages addressing evolution?

Bible doesn't support that, it says things are created.

I'm not a theist, but I often find other people's religious ideas interesting. Do you think God is powerful enough to create things through creating the conditions that allow for evolution? Or is he not quite that powerful?

Yes, God can absolutely create the conditions that allow evolution.  He can also transform our souls through grace and he gives us the tools to do but most reduce his divinity into a mere fable or regular human and choose to reject Jesus Christ.

That's a bit of a catch-22 isn't it? I mean if God is all powerful and can create conditions for evolution, then you must accept that he/she created conditions for viruses, bacteria, natural disasters (earthquakes, volcanoes, hurricanes, tornadoes etc.), congenital birth defects, disease, so on and so forth, to also thrive and exist. The universe and planet are extremely hostile to living beings. As I stated earlier, 99% of all species that have existed are now extinct. Your all powerful, all good God at work, or just natural causes?

No, not a catch 22 because God call pull good from bad things happening.  Yet, we don't know the fullness of the good things because God's plan is a mystery to us mere humans.

Thanks! An all good God would not allow bad things to happen. And humans, allegedly made in Gods image, would easily see the good in all bad. Why is Gods plan a mystery? So God left us here continually fighting for our lives and decided to fuck with us by not telling us why all this horrible shit is trying to kill us? And when something horrible does happen, we cannot see the good in that, as allegedly God can? Something just isn't adding up here.

I rather like science, evidence and facts. I am here because my parents decided to procreate. Humans exist as do millions and billions of other species thanks to evolution. One day we won't exist. One day our planet won't exist. One day our galaxy will collide with another and annihilate everything. Ahhh, nature! Let's enjoy the ride while we can.

Only through suffering can one grow and experience joy.  If someone wants to run a marathon they have to put themselves through a bunch of suffering to develop the muscles and stamina to complete that achievement.  This can be applied to virtually achieving anything, hard work and suffering are often a condition.

For a Christian the goal is to die a Holy Death and hope that God has mercy on us.  Our defects and demons are often a path to holiness as they are meant to be resisted against so we can grow in our faith and virtue.  If there was no suffering there would be no reason to seek God or achieve any other goal because the achievement would be without meaning.

For example of how God can pull good out of a bad situation.  Let's say a person is terminally ill but continues to have strong faith in God.  The illness is a bad as they may die.  But if the nurses, doctors, visitors see the strength and consistent faith of the terminally ill person it could lead impact their hearts and lead them toward God.  The result is that more souls would end up in Heaven than if the illness never existed.
.
The goal for a Christian is not to live a perfect life with but to die a Holy death and suffering is necessary.

I will say this - I'm a former christian (from the south, no less!).  Obviously I cut ties with religion a while back.  Nowadays, anytime I run across these types of statements, it hits me with full force just how bizarre they really are.  It's not even a half step removed from belief in magic and voodoo.  Or more accurately, as I've been reading a ton of old books in recent years, it's all sounds exactly like what the Greeks sounded like when they very calmly and very reasonably talked about Zeus and the other gods and all the power/sway those gods had. 

The type of stuff you typed above is absolutely no different.  Since all those "old books" are still fresh in my mind, it's even more striking just how primitive it is.  I suppose some people will never give up these types of beliefs, even though we have MUCH better explanations for how the world (and universe) work nowadays.  Sigh, I suppose at some point we'll have intergalactic space ships with chapels on them.  Wow, just wow.

It's either the most absolutely absurd belief or it's true.

[mastrr]

I've run marathons and experienced joy while training as much as running the marathon.  Work of most kinds can be enjoyable if you've got the right mindset, or misery if you've got the wrong mindset.  It's weird that someone would accept (and even embrace) needless suffering.  I don't recall passages from the bible that support this argument.

I wouldn't say it's needless suffering because Christians are attempting to become more holy in the process.  I may not be understanding your point about suffering because it's present in many areas - Apostles being martyred for their faith, Passion/Crucifixion of Jesus etc.

If God doesn't exist and everything is made up, sure it's needless.

[mastrr]

For example of how God can pull good out of a bad situation.  Let's say a person is terminally ill but continues to have strong faith in God.  The illness is a bad as they may die.  But if the nurses, doctors, visitors see the strength and consistent faith of the terminally ill person it could lead impact their hearts and lead them toward God.  The result is that more souls would end up in Heaven than if the illness never existed.
.
The goal for a Christian is not to live a perfect life with but to die a Holy death and suffering is necessary.

You seem to gloss over the fact that the terminal illness exists only because God allowed it to be.  So, in your example, he is pulling something 'good' out of a terrible situation he created (and should be thanked or worshiped for?)

That's like poisoning one of your children then saying, 'well, on the bright side the rest of the kids will learn about the dangers of Drano'

That may very well be - but I can't see myself applauding someone for that.

It's more about the end state of obtaining Heaven is the goal and the focus shouldn't be on the amount of suffering we have in this life.  This also touches on the free will piece that humans have and we have the choice to either accept or reject Him.

[MrDelane]

It's more about the end state of obtaining Heaven is the goal and the focus shouldn't be on the amount of suffering we have in this life.

The idea that this life is not as important as another imagined life is possibly the most dangerous idea humanity has ever grabbed hold of (second only to the idea that we need to seek forgiveness because by our very nature we are all broken from the moment we are born).

This also touches on the free will piece that humans have and we have the choice to either accept or reject Him.

Free will could conceivable exist without terminal diseases and the massive suffering many on earth have been forced to live with.  It seems the suffering that exists is here because god simply wanted it so.

[MrDelane]

It's either the most absolutely absurd belief or it's true.

The exact same thing can be said of every major religion.
The time to believe things is when the evidence supports the claims and not one moment before.
When dealing with potentially the 'most absolutely absurd' beliefs on earth, the evidence should be rock solid in order to accept them as true.

No religion can claim anything even remotely near solid evidence for it's claims.
It is the reason we find 'faith' to be necessary (and acceptable) with religion, when we wouldn't find it an acceptable pathway to truth in any other situation.

[Tyson]

It's either the most absolutely absurd belief or it's true.

The exact same thing can be said of every major religion.
The time to believe things is when the evidence supports the claims and not one moment before.
When dealing with potentially the 'most absolutely absurd' beliefs on earth, the evidence should be rock solid in order to accept them as true.

No religion can claim anything even remotely near solid evidence for it's claims.
It is the reason we find 'faith' to be necessary (and acceptable) with religion, when we wouldn't find it an acceptable pathway to truth in any other situation.

And on top of that, Christianity isn't even the oldest surviving religion, Hinduism is.  So you'd think Hinduism would have dibs on being "right" by virtue of being the oldest. 

On the other hand, Christianity isn't the newest major religion either.  That would be either Islam or Scientology (depending on how you measure "major"). 

As far as I can tell, they are all more or less the same.  They all claim to be right and they also claim bad things will happen if you choose a different religion.  Although if someone put a gun to my head I'd probably choose to become Hindi because there's so many gods on their religion to check out.  Or maybe scientology, at least they have space ships, which seems more relevant to the modern world. 

[brooklynmoney]

This thread seems so quaint! I can’t imagine anyone even discussing religion in my world. People I know who are religious are culturally religious and that is all.

[Raenia]

@mastrr  Please be wary of claiming "Christians are" when you actually mean "Catholics are" - not all Christian sects believe the same things.  Some Christians believe in the Devil and some do not, some don't believe in free will the way you seem to (see many debates on determinism and predestination), plenty do believe that the way to heaven is to live a good life, and not a 'holy death' as you've said - and some believe that getting into heaven is preordained by God and you can't change the outcome.  You don't represent the wide variety of different viewpoints represented in one of the largest religions in the world.  I'm sure a Calvinist, a Quaker, or a Mormon would have a very different viewpoint, and they are no less Christian than you.  Thank you.

[mastrr]

It's more about the end state of obtaining Heaven is the goal and the focus shouldn't be on the amount of suffering we have in this life.

The idea that this life is not as important as another imagined life is possibly the most dangerous idea humanity has ever grabbed hold of (second only to the idea that we need to seek forgiveness because by our very nature we are all broken from the moment we are born).

This also touches on the free will piece that humans have and we have the choice to either accept or reject Him.

Free will could conceivable exist without terminal diseases and the massive suffering many on earth have been forced to live with.  It seems the suffering that exists is here because god simply wanted it so.

I can see your point as this line of thinking can be used for not good things.  But if you look into Christian teachings it's about developing virtue and become a good person helps with our sanctification.  Even Atheists tend to agree with this.  Do Christians do bad things? Absolutely.

[PhilB]

I'm strongly reminded of the old joke where someone dies and goes to heaven.  An angel welcomes him in and leads him to the appropriate area of heaven for his religion.  On the way there, the angel is chatting and joking with people they pass in the Hindu area, the Muslim area, the Baptist section and so on, but as they approach a big walled off area the angel tells the new arrival that they must be quiet until they are past it.
Eventually they arrive at the correct section and the angel issues the new arrival his harp and wings, gets him signed up for music lessons and introduces him to his new neighbours.   Before saying goodbye he asks if the new arrival has any questions:
NA:  Just one, why did we have to be quiet going past that walled off area?
Angel: That's where the Catholics are
NA: But why did we have to be quiet?
Angel (whispering and giggling): They think they're the only ones here!

[mastrr]

It's either the most absolutely absurd belief or it's true.

The exact same thing can be said of every major religion.
The time to believe things is when the evidence supports the claims and not one moment before.
When dealing with potentially the 'most absolutely absurd' beliefs on earth, the evidence should be rock solid in order to accept them as true.

No religion can claim anything even remotely near solid evidence for it's claims.
It is the reason we find 'faith' to be necessary (and acceptable) with religion, when we wouldn't find it an acceptable pathway to truth in any other situation.

And on top of that, Christianity isn't even the oldest surviving religion, Hinduism is.  So you'd think Hinduism would have dibs on being "right" by virtue of being the oldest. 

On the other hand, Christianity isn't the newest major religion either.  That would be either Islam or Scientology (depending on how you measure "major"). 

As far as I can tell, they are all more or less the same.  They all claim to be right and they also claim bad things will happen if you choose a different religion.  Although if someone put a gun to my head I'd probably choose to become Hindi because there's so many gods on their religion to check out.  Or maybe scientology, at least they have space ships, which seems more relevant to the modern world.

Polytheism is whole other ball of wax.

[MasterStache]

I've run marathons and experienced joy while training as much as running the marathon.  Work of most kinds can be enjoyable if you've got the right mindset, or misery if you've got the wrong mindset.  It's weird that someone would accept (and even embrace) needless suffering.  I don't recall passages from the bible that support this argument.

I wouldn't say it's needless suffering because Christians are attempting to become more holy in the process.  I may not be understanding your point about suffering because it's present in many areas - Apostles being martyred for their faith, Passion/Crucifixion of Jesus etc.

If God doesn't exist and everything is made up, sure it's needless.

You don't understand what "needless" actually means. No one chooses to get cancer. Training for a marathon is not needless "suffering." People pushing their bodies mentally and physically to compete is not akin to finding out you have pancreatic cancer with a dire diagnosis. OR the two year old battling terminal brain cancer. Perhaps that 2 year old should just accept that there is good in his/her death. If their place is in Heaven next to God, then what the hell are we all doing here dodging "bullets" our entire lives? God cannot be both all good and all powerful.

Look dude, If you need to believe in a God to live a better life, more power to you. I won't chide you for that. I tried church and religion and none of it ever made sense to me. It didn't feel right. I am a very evidence based analytical person. Perhaps that's why. I absolutely love science, learning about the universe and our planet, etc. If it turns out our entire existence can be summed up in a book, it would be immensely disappointing. I am really enjoying learning about the billions of years before human existence and how we arrived to today. It's fascinating to say the least.